tenacity doesn't work on concussive strike and dazing strike. Also dazing strike can daze a target who is in itc is you daze the target from behind. I think a certain tr can attest to that.
Daze should definitely respect tenacity and CC resist/immunity. It does this in PvE (immunity at least) so if it isn't in PvP then that's presumably not WAI and needs to be fixed.
I did post a while ago that before any adjustments are made to daze duration or TR daze feats/powers it needs to be confirmed whether dazes are respecting all the resists and immunities they are supposed to.
yes it can, this is what i talk about all the time. It does dazing a cc immune target.
It definitely doesn't daze a CC immune target in PvE. I'm not sure why it would be different in PvP but if it is then that's a bug and you should definitely file a bug report.
Dazing Strike does not care about which facing you hit the target from. Neither does Skullcracker. Concussive Strikes can daze a target on a non-critical strike from behind. Maybe this is the problem and CS is breaking immunity? It's more difficult to test this but again, in PvE CS respects immunity.
Dazing Strike does not care about which facing you hit the target from. Neither does Skullcracker. Concussive Strikes can daze a target on a non-critical strike from behind. Maybe this is the problem and CS is breaking immunity? It's more difficult to test this but again, in PvE CS respects immunity.
CS doesn't break immunity.
Simply, the indicator combat text pops up whether or not the effect actually works or not. (Which means the effect is simply wasted on a CC immune target, instead of 'not working' and saved for when it actually does). Also, Dazing Strike is a multi-effect CC, one of it being an interrupt. On CC immune targets the daze may not work, but does interrupt any powers which are marked down as interruptable -- which, I don't have any beef with if it gets removed. Nor would any other TR player.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You live in a different world, thus your opinions should be casually ignored. Kweassa tests the class and, like myself, was way out in front of the true TR issues. We are TRs that actually care about balance. You just want a class nerfed because you lack the ability to adapt and overcome. Go check out Tyrion's thread on the real problem with TRs.
You want balance and yet your reply to me is "your opinion is ignored".
Pretty much sealed the deal no?
Also you assume what I want without arguing. "You want a class nerfed blabla".
Really?
I have read that thread. And the "real" problem with TRs are a long list.
Dunno who you think you are, but I am pretty sure I have been around longer than you and played more PvP than you.
Ah lets just be as childish as you while we're at it.
You are a nobody and your opinion is ignored.
See? A fun way to talk in a forum, no?
0
onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
edited December 2014
I don't think I have even been able to daze a GF with Dazing Strike(or SS from stealth) from the front when holding up. I get the "Immune" yellow text when I do. I can,however, daze them from the back, which is expected. I also can't remember being able to daze a GWF while he is unstoppable. Most of the time I run away until it is over so I don't waste my encounters, but maybe it became bugged in recent patches?
I haven't noticed whether one can be dazed with ITC in affect. If it can. it probably has the same issue how sunburst can go through ITC immunity.
Dazing Strike, as well as Disruptive Shot, has interrupt effect on hit. They don't daze you, but they stop all attacks and casting even if you're immune, for example, they interrupt Duelist's Flurry and cancel attacks of Unstoppable GWF.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Dazing Strike, as well as Disruptive Shot, has interrupt effect on hit. They don't daze you, but they stop all attacks and casting even if you're immune, for example, they interrupt Duelist's Flurry and cancel attacks of Unstoppable GWF.
I think that is actually WAI. Interrupts are not flagged as CC effects so they ignore CC resist/immunity. This works well in PvE but maybe in PvP it could be looked at, although I can't see it being a huge issue unless it interrupts defensive moves.
I think that is actually WAI. Interrupts are not flagged as CC effects so they ignore CC resist/immunity. This works well in PvE but maybe in PvP it could be looked at, although I can't see it being a huge issue unless it interrupts defensive moves.
Dazing Strike's tooltip doesn't say it should interrupt it's targets, this is why it's confusing.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Scoundrel damage is exactly the same as Mod 4 except against CCed targets (if they take the right feat) and targets under the effect of Skullcracker. This is part of the point Scoundrels keep making and you seem to keep missing. They don't have 'tons of damage' and TRs who want to DPS do NOT pick Scoundrel.
Exactly the same exept .. how much more damage do you do against cced targets or effected by Skullcracker. How much more damage do you do from extra stats due to superiour equippment compared to module 4.
How much more damage does 100% crit chanse from stealth + first strike and being able to ignore the crit stat and build power instead do overall compared to the increased defence/hp players gained..
It's primarily a support/defensive tree. And this is why Scoundrels so fiercely defend their CC mechanics, because they literally have nothing else - no permastealth, no piercing damage, no one-shot kills; nothing.
Now let me explain why this is beside the point imho..
Lets go back to module 2-3 where the gwf ruled pvp with roar and take downs.
Instigators claim that they NEED roar-take down and frontline+ threatening rush(tr) as it is becuase their dam from the CAPSTONE vanish if they get HIT ( as it was back then).
They claim is valid enough but the rest argue that roar is broken it goes though immunitys(much like daze) and that knock downs are to powerful and to long making other gwfs to strong because they cant fight back.
Instigator then says BUT we dont have anyting else if we get hit our damage is very low so we need this mechanics to stay at it is we are a weak path we cant tank as sents and we cant go unstoppable and burst damage as destro can WE NEED THIS TO STAY ..
Rest of the population dident agree to say the least because in the OTHER PATHS whish also had access to this mechanic it becomes broken making Gwfs way to powerful compared to the other classes.
Does this ring any bells - pointing at Kweassa , any lights turing one , or is it dark and still being blind.
If you shoose to play the weakest part of a class in pvp and defend stuff that makes TR broken in other aspects it dont really matter how much you argue, it sure dident help Instigators to keep anything and I highly daubt it will help the Tr in the long run.
Now i know that there are differances when it come to take down- roar - frontline being encounters etc but its enough simularitys to prove my point.
Exactly the same exept .. how much more damage do you do against cced targets or effected by Skullcracker. How much more damage do you do from extra stats due to superiour equippment compared to module 4.
How much more damage does 100% crit chanse from stealth + first strike and being able to ignore the crit stat and build power instead do overall compared to the increased defence/hp players gained..
Now let me explain why this is beside the point imho..
Lets go back to module 2-3 where the gwf ruled pvp with roar and take downs.
Instigators claim that they NEED roar-take down and frontline+ threatening rush(tr) as it is becuase their dam from the CAPSTONE vanish if they get HIT ( as it was back then).
They claim is valid enough but the rest argue that roar is broken it goes though immunitys(much like daze) and that knock downs are to powerful and to long making other gwfs to strong because they cant fight back.
Instigator then says BUT we dont have anyting else if we get hit our damage is very low so we need this mechanics to stay at it is we are a weak path we cant tank as sents and we cant go unstoppable and burst damage as destro can WE NEED THIS TO STAY ..
Rest of the population dident agree to say the least because in the OTHER PATHS whish also had access to this mechanic it becomes broken making Gwfs way to powerful compared to the other classes.
Does this ring any bells - pointing at Kweassa , any lights turing one , or is it dark and still being blind.
If you shoose to play the weakest part of a class in pvp and defend stuff that makes TR broken in other aspects it dont really matter how much you argue, it sure dident help Instigators to keep anything and I highly daubt it will help the Tr in the long run.
Now i know that there are differances when it come to take down- roar - frontline being encounters etc but its enough simularitys to prove my point.
Best
Very very well said!
i greened the parts i really like
Exactly the same exept .. how much more damage do you do against cced targets or effected by Skullcracker. How much more damage do you do from extra stats due to superiour equippment compared to module 4.
How much more damage does 100% crit chanse from stealth + first strike and being able to ignore the crit stat and build power instead do overall compared to the increased defence/hp players gained..
All classes have the same increase in damage due to superior gear. And not all players have the superior gear.
Scoundrels do not have the luxury of forgetting their crit stat and building power. They are hardly ever in stealth and so hardly ever get the 100% crit chance. Scoundrels build for crit and deflect - much like a traditional Rogue in fact. This has been pointed out any number of times but for some reason it's not getting through.
Now let me explain why this is beside the point imho..
It's not beside the point when the point was how much extra damage ALL TRs have now. Only two trees have much higher DPS - Sab and Exe. Those trees can also put together a daze rotation on single targets very nearly as potent as the Scoundrel just by using SB and DS. Scoundrel dazes from feats are not the issue.
All classes have the same increase in damage due to superior gear. And not all players have the superior gear.
No they dont some classes benifits more then others due to higher at will damage and procs from glyphs making it very much an issue.
The same goes for encounters f.ex. the tr gets way more out of power then Hr when it comes to encounters etc etc.
scoundrels do not have the luxury of forgetting their crit stat and building power. They are hardly ever in stealth and so hardly ever get the 100% crit chance
Hardly ever-- translates to starting the fight from hide every single time and you make it sound like they dont escape through hide only to attack from hide again. That they fight more then other Trs in the cower of daze dont change the fact that the extra damage from 100% crit/first strike is considerable higher then in module 4.
Scoundrels build for crit and deflect - much like a traditional Rogue in fact. This has been pointed out any number of times but for some reason it's not getting through.
Now read my former post again and if you still dont get why it doesent matter how you argue this I will have to explain it again in even more detailed way i guess.
It's not beside the point when the point was how much extra damage ALL TRs have now. Only two trees have much higher DPS - Sab and Exe. Those trees can also put together a daze rotation on single targets very nearly as potent as the Scoundrel just by using SB and DS. Scoundrel dazes from feats are not the issue.
It is exactly the POINT if those other path can abuse daze and you defend daze in the 3rd part its EXACLY like Instigator defending roar and knock downs.
'I dont matter if you play the LEAST powerful path if a skill/feat/power/daily helps make the other path broken because of bad mechanics whish you can abuse the least it has to change mkay.
Roar in itself wasent a game breaker it was what happend when you where hit with roar (much like daze) together with other class mechanics in the gwf class that made it broken.
Nobody would care so much if module 4 dc had used roar would they ....
When you argue a case its very hard when the facts is guilty from the start and you very soon end up on the defencive attacking the very arguments of your opponents and if you read through almost every single thread about Trs this is the case.
Evidence on evidence are stacked up why the Tr is to OP and broken and over and over again some Trs try to explain why its not by either attacking HOW and not WHY it was written or by simply saying that they dont know what the are talking about and need to l2p.
You are defending a lost cause - Trs are broken in pvp(again I have no wish to change Trs in pve) and things need to change that is the essence of the storry and being the TRUE case no matter how much you try the evidence are out there and obvioust to all but a few stubborn Trs that refuse to see the ligh.....
Best
PS(for the tone of the discussion I will add that I find that your way of arguing is sound and healthy and that I dont find that you bash others they way Kweassa does for wish am greatful and it makes you a much better advocate for the Trs sake imho)
I've been reading this thread and I am confused as to why people keep referencing Mod 4 TRs as a benchmark when calling Mod 5 TRs OP. Mod 5 was a rework to fix a class that had no real viability.
Mod 4 TRs were trash, with perma being the ONLY viable build, and that build did no damage. As a DC player, who also did no damage in mod 4, I'd always just go to the point with the enemy TR to keep it contested and we'd spit on each other without resolution.
In Mod 5, TRs can hurt you now and DCs aren't a way to add up cheap kills anymore without the ability to fight back. Welcome to a movement toward balance.
This is not to say that some tweaks aren't needed, but to keep talking about insane damage of TRs and calling for Scoundrels to lose the one ability that makes them viable (as they are the only TR path that requires crit, has low stealth uptime, and lowest damage) is simply ludicrous. Load up ACT and show that amazing damage you're seeing from Scoundrels. It's just really not there.
Dazing Strike might need to be looked at, as activation is short and the base daze seems to last a decent amount of time (I don't have the numbers), but I'm still more offended by the nigh undodgeable Icy Rays. But Dazing Strike's mechanics has NOTHING to do with the scoundrel feats. Tweaks that need to be made will be made, just as the nerf came to Disheartening Strike.
Mod 5 is in play, and there will be more changes to come. Stop comparing TRs AND DCs to their previous incarnations because they are GONE. These are ostensibly new classes.
P.S. 7/10 times if you're hit by the flurry portion of Duelist Flurry, it was your own fault. The other 3/10 times, you were being controlled by another player when the TR hit you.
What do you think of this afternoon Domination Board when you look at the 3 first pages of the top board?
Here is the % of top characters:
TR 52%, DC 13%, HR 13%, GWF 10%, CW 10%, GF 2%, SW 0%
Here is the ratio kills vs death:
TR 8.1 kills for 1 death
DC 2.2 kills for 1 death
HR 4.8 kills for 1 death
GWF 5.6 kills for 1 death
CW 2.5 kills for 1 death
SW 0 kills for 0 deaths
Are TR players (52%) better than the total of all other characters players (48%) of Neverwinter?
What do you think of this afternoon Domination Board when you look at the 3 first pages of the top board?
Here is the % of top characters:
TR 52%, DC 13%, HR 13%, GWF 10%, CW 10%, GF 2%, SW 0%
Here is the ratio kills vs death:
TR 8.1 kills for 1 death
DC 2.2 kills for 1 death
HR 4.8 kills for 1 death
GWF 5.6 kills for 1 death
CW 2.5 kills for 1 death
SW 0 kills for 0 deaths
[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]
Are TR players (52%) better than the total of all other characters players (48%) of Neverwinter?
Or is it something else????
I've just posted the question on thread : Are TR players better than all other characters of Neverwinter?
Is this your new tactic?
Since you can't really prove or disprove that dazes are problematic in the way you claim, much less even care about the issue as to provide a single PvP footage which shows how MIs are dazing you 24/7, you simply move over to blanket statesments and meaningless statistics to bash the TRs as a whole.
Way to go on with a crusade, sahib. :rolleyes:
[EDIT]
How many of those are Scoundrels? At an even a glance most of the names I notice are either Execs or Sabs.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I've been reading this thread and I am confused as to why people keep referencing Mod 4 TRs as a benchmark when calling Mod 5 TRs OP. Mod 5 was a rework to fix a class that had no real viability.
Mod 4 TRs were trash, with perma being the ONLY viable build, and that build did no damage. As a DC player, who also did no damage in mod 4, I'd always just go to the point with the enemy TR to keep it contested and we'd spit on each other without resolution.
In Mod 5, TRs can hurt you now and DCs aren't a way to add up cheap kills anymore without the ability to fight back. Welcome to a movement toward balance.
Since you can't really prove or disprove that dazes are problematic in the way you claim, much less even care about the issue as to provide a single PvP footage which shows how MIs are dazing you 24/7, you simply move over to blanket statesments and meaningless statistics to bash the TRs as a whole.
Way to go on with a crusade, sahib. :rolleyes:
Are you serious, you still deny there is something wrong????
Since you can't really prove or disprove that dazes are problematic in the way you claim, much less even care about the issue as to provide a single PvP footage which shows how MIs are dazing you 24/7, you simply move over to blanket statesments and meaningless statistics to bash the TRs as a whole.
Way to go on with a crusade, sahib.
I wish I could say something nice about you Kweassa, I wish there was something redeeming about your post but you are a hopeless case - really!!
Tactic ? now it is called tactic when somebody post something this obvious that you cant argue away,
MEANINGLESS STATISTISC -- for real ???Cant prove what - you mean if you DENY everthing that EVERYBODY post that is against your oppinion there is no evidence.
The simple TRUTH is that you are so blind so utterly BIAS that you refuse to admit what almost every single non TR see together with alot of other Trs that actually cares about the balance.
From a famous movie i will quote a phrase fitting you - YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!
I've been reading this thread and I am confused as to why people keep referencing Mod 4 TRs as a benchmark when calling Mod 5 TRs OP. Mod 5 was a rework to fix a class that had no real viability.
Mod 4 TRs were trash, with perma being the ONLY viable build, and that build did no damage. As a DC player, who also did no damage in mod 4, I'd always just go to the point with the enemy TR to keep it contested and we'd spit on each other without resolution.
In Mod 5, TRs can hurt you now and DCs aren't a way to add up cheap kills anymore without the ability to fight back. Welcome to a movement toward balance.
A person speaking some sense - how refreshing
Sence just lol from a DC the only class that can stand up to Tr atm and is almost as broken even if in another way, how fitting a in a crime the villian defending the crime of another villian to justify the crime....
Dc need and will with all certaincy get their healing and maby even damage adjusted (not to mention sun burst) also even if that is a lesser problem right now.
Everybody has seen some DC both heal and survive redicules amounts of focus in such a way that it is in need of looking into.
And I seen some dc lay down hurt on other players like the best of the best cws even if they are few and far appart.
Leadership board is trash and can be abused and you should take statistic from it with a grain of salt at best BUT this can not be denied its to big of a picture and when put together with the experiance of all other players and all threads there can only be one conclusion - PVP TR NEED TO BE ADJUSTED BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO MUCH DAMAGE COMPARED TO SURVIVABILTY AND CCS.
Sence just lol from a DC the only class that can stand up to Tr atm and is almost as broken even if in another way, how fitting a in a crime the villian defending the crime of another villian to justify the crime...PVP TR NEED TO BE ADJUSTED BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO MUCH DAMAGE COMPARED TO SURVIVABILTY AND CCS.
I find it laughable that you admonish Kweassa for being dismissive, but you do this more fervently than he does. I've seen many of his postings, many of which are highly insightful and includes detailed TESTING, while others have been less than polite. We're all human, and this happens, although in our most emotional moments we should be showing some restraint and remind ourselves that THIS IS A GAME before posting.
That said, you seem to be missing the point when it comes to balance. You are using blanket statements calling ALL TRs (and in that post ALL DCs) OP. If one makes a build to be highly survivable through damage mitigation or healing, they aren't doing loads of damage. The converse is also true. If someone makes a control build with a TR, they aren't nuking anyone either. This is NOTHING like the GWF prone lock of Mod 3.
When mod 4 came into play and, with full profound armour and 26 wisdom, I was still perma-controlled by CWs, I didn't whine about all CWs being OP. Since you want to quote movies, I'll quote from Heartbreak Ridge, "You adapt. You overcome. You improvise."
If all someone can do is complain because they are unable to do that, or because they are simply trolls, then remember the famous quote from Gone with the Wind.
Hardly ever-- translates to starting the fight from hide every single time and you make it sound like they dont escape through hide only to attack from hide again. That they fight more then other Trs in the cower of daze dont change the fact that the extra damage from 100% crit/first strike is considerable higher then in module 4.
I'm in stealth typically only for the first few seconds of combat - or less, actually, as I usually open with an encounter which removes stealth instantly. I very rarely return to stealth as Scoundrels have no easy way to regenerate stealth in combat, unlike Sabs and Exes. I don't slot Shadow Strike for PvE and I know PvP Scoundrels who don't either. Being in stealth actually reduces the effectiveness of a Scoundrel. I don't think many Scoundrels slot First Strike either as they lack the burst to one-shot and then you have a class feature which does nothing for the rest of a long fight.
It is exactly the POINT if those other path can abuse daze and you defend daze in the 3rd part its EXACLY like Instigator defending roar and knock downs.
I have repeatedly said that I think daze should respect CC resists and immunities in PvP like it does in PvE, and if it isn't then it needs to be fixed. Once that has been done THEN evaluate how daze is working and IF NECESSARY reduce daze durations in PvP only. This is NOT a blanket defence of daze - it's a logical and methodical course of action. What I HAVE argued against is the calls for a blanket nerf to all dazes without any hard facts about whether they are working correctly or not right now and with what appears to be some misinformation about how the mechanic works in the first place. The vast majority of calls for nerfs have focussed on the Scoundrel feats and as I have explained I don't think these are the cause of the problems people are having with dazes.
Evidence on evidence are stacked up why the Tr is to OP and broken
This is actually not true. There is plenty of empirical evidence that some aspects of the TR are either not WAI or maybe OP, but there is very little hard evidence with supporting facts. And much of the empirical evidence is provided alongside comments that prove that the person making the claims doesn't actually know what happened to him or how the mechanics he wants to nerf actually work. While I don't think it's all an L2P issue there is definitely some of that involved - many people are just not used to TRs being dangerous and have not developed strategies to cope. Similarly, some TRs have never developed an ability to fight outside of stealth and are now suffering badly with the new stealth reveal tactics.
You are defending a lost cause - Trs are broken in pvp(again I have no wish to change Trs in pve) and things need to change that is the essence of the storry and being the TRUE case no matter how much you try the evidence are out there and obvioust to all but a few stubborn Trs that refuse to see the ligh.....
I'm not defending any cause other than arguing against false claims and nerfs that will harm PvE Rogues. I'm happy to engage with facts instead of opinions and unsupported statements, but most of the nerf calls are just that.
I play a Scoundrel every day in PvE. It does not feel OP. And I have both a CW and Combat HR so I know what OP feels like. People keep telling me how much better a real player is than a mob, so I just find it hard to believe that something that is not OP in PvE is so much more dangerous in PvP. Unless some powers like daze are not working the same...
Just a note about K/D ratios, ignoring for now how they can be manipulated...
When the HR first launched I took my lowbie-geared Archer hybrid into PvP and racked up K/D ratios very similar to what some TRs are posting now. This was not because I was an ace PvPer - I'm about average for my GS - or because the class was OP. It was because nobody had seen HRs before and so didn't know how to play against them. As people got used to HRs my K/D ratio declined and settled out somewhere in the 'normal' range. I think we're seeing some of the same effect with TRs now.
Another note about OP builds and tactics to combat them...
In Mod 3 everyone was complaining about permstealth, and it was especially deadly for CWs. Rather than give up I took some theorycrafting that someone posted on here and developed it into a specialised CW build that could find and kill any TR easily. I hunted them for fun. Sometimes it just takes some out-of-the-box thinking.
I find it laughable that you admonish Kweassa for being dismissive, but you do this more fervently than he does. I've seen many of his postings, many of which are highly insightful and includes detailed TESTING, while others have been less than polite. We're all human, and this happens, although in our most emotional moments we should be showing some restraint and remind ourselves that THIS IS A GAME before posting.
That said, you seem to be missing the point when it comes to balance. You are using blanket statements calling ALL TRs (and in that post ALL DCs) OP. If one makes a build to be highly survivable through damage mitigation or healing, they aren't doing loads of damage. The converse is also true. If someone makes a control build with a TR, they aren't nuking anyone either. This is NOTHING like the GWF prone lock of Mod 3.
When mod 4 came into play and, with full profound armour and 26 wisdom, I was still perma-controlled by CWs, I didn't whine about all CWs being OP. Since you want to quote movies, I'll quote from Heartbreak Ridge, "You adapt. You overcome. You improvise."
If all someone can do is complain because they are unable to do that, or because they are simply trolls, then remember the famous quote from Gone with the Wind.
Happy Holidays everyone. Peace.
Ok appart from wanting to write a post do you have a point to it or just felt to impart some of your great wisdome like -
That said, you seem to be missing the point when it comes to balance. You are using blanket statements calling ALL TRs (and in that post ALL DCs) OP. If one makes a build to be highly survivable through damage mitigation or healing, they aren't doing loads of damage. The converse is also true. If someone makes a control build with a TR, they aren't nuking anyone either. This is NOTHING like the GWF prone lock of Mod 3.
because never in the history of NW has a class dominated in PVP the way Trs does now.
Not to mention --
When mod 4 came into play and, with full profound armour and 26 wisdom, I was still perma-controlled by CWs, I didn't whine about all CWs being OP. Since you want to quote movies, I'll quote from Heartbreak Ridge, "You adapt. You overcome. You improvise."
saying it was ok that cw nuked everhing to bits in 3 sec flat all you need to do was to adapt overcome and improvise -
awesome now we know I think i quote that movie for ya as a tnx for your great insight your sharing with us -Frankly my dear - I dont give a dam....
This is actually not true. There is plenty of empirical evidence that some aspects of the TR are either not WAI or maybe OP, but there is very little hard evidence with supporting facts
If we talk about Tr in general this is simply not the truth.
First of all we have all players that experiance that Tr is OP from nabs to the most geared in premades, second we have the KD ratios that tells us that something is clearly amiss then we have the leaderboards from both our server and the russian server also telling us that something is very very wrong with the balance.
Next we have set up where we match classes against eachother with simular gearscore 1-1 and 1-2 and then again the same with differnt gs.
Now here is where you simple cant deny the emperical facts that Tr comes out not only as the winner among this but stands in a state of close to godhood compared to the other classes.
No class can match Trs in even gs no class can even phantom of going out victorious against 2 Trs fighting 1-2.
But yet a Tr at 14k can easely win against many classes if not all with 21gs that is 7k gs higher whish is huge.
Same goes for a Tr in 1-2 where the Tr can beat alot of other combinations of classes and I dare to say is the only class capable of doing so on a regular basis.
This is all common knowledge and clearly enough evidence that the TR need to be toned down in PVP.
In fact the evidence that Tr are OP in PVP is so abundant clear that denying it .. well the kindest word i can come up with is redicules.
I play a Scoundrel every day in PvE. It does not feel OP. And I have both a CW and Combat HR so I know what OP feels like. People keep telling me how much better a real player is than a mob, so I just find it hard to believe that something that is not OP in PvE is so much more dangerous in PvP. Unless some powers like daze are not working the same
Yea well then start to believe if you play melee Hr compare it with sw in pve and pvp and you start to comprehend the HUGE difference in pvp compared to pve.
You can be devastating efficent in pve and a totally useless in pvp just because of that your fighting against something that reacts to counter you moves in pvp for one of 100nds of other reason.
But i think we all are getting a bit tired of this YES:NO YES:NO discussions and maby its time to hand it over to the devs and do the best we can of the situation I dont think we will get much further with 100 more threads like this.
The sad part is that pvp is dieing and even if there is no empirical data for it those that I talked to says its mosly because of the imbalance between Tr and other classes that they quit...
Comments
Maybe you should just upload a video of the complains you are making? Would be much easier...
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
Everyting is covered.
I did post a while ago that before any adjustments are made to daze duration or TR daze feats/powers it needs to be confirmed whether dazes are respecting all the resists and immunities they are supposed to.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
CS doesn't break immunity.
Simply, the indicator combat text pops up whether or not the effect actually works or not. (Which means the effect is simply wasted on a CC immune target, instead of 'not working' and saved for when it actually does). Also, Dazing Strike is a multi-effect CC, one of it being an interrupt. On CC immune targets the daze may not work, but does interrupt any powers which are marked down as interruptable -- which, I don't have any beef with if it gets removed. Nor would any other TR player.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You want balance and yet your reply to me is "your opinion is ignored".
Pretty much sealed the deal no?
Also you assume what I want without arguing. "You want a class nerfed blabla".
Really?
I have read that thread. And the "real" problem with TRs are a long list.
Dunno who you think you are, but I am pretty sure I have been around longer than you and played more PvP than you.
Ah lets just be as childish as you while we're at it.
You are a nobody and your opinion is ignored.
See? A fun way to talk in a forum, no?
I haven't noticed whether one can be dazed with ITC in affect. If it can. it probably has the same issue how sunburst can go through ITC immunity.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Dazing Strike's tooltip doesn't say it should interrupt it's targets, this is why it's confusing.
it also grants combat advantage
many abilities don't fully state what they actually do
Exactly the same exept .. how much more damage do you do against cced targets or effected by Skullcracker. How much more damage do you do from extra stats due to superiour equippment compared to module 4.
How much more damage does 100% crit chanse from stealth + first strike and being able to ignore the crit stat and build power instead do overall compared to the increased defence/hp players gained..
Now let me explain why this is beside the point imho..
Lets go back to module 2-3 where the gwf ruled pvp with roar and take downs.
Instigators claim that they NEED roar-take down and frontline+ threatening rush(tr) as it is becuase their dam from the CAPSTONE vanish if they get HIT ( as it was back then).
They claim is valid enough but the rest argue that roar is broken it goes though immunitys(much like daze) and that knock downs are to powerful and to long making other gwfs to strong because they cant fight back.
Instigator then says BUT we dont have anyting else if we get hit our damage is very low so we need this mechanics to stay at it is we are a weak path we cant tank as sents and we cant go unstoppable and burst damage as destro can WE NEED THIS TO STAY ..
Rest of the population dident agree to say the least because in the OTHER PATHS whish also had access to this mechanic it becomes broken making Gwfs way to powerful compared to the other classes.
Does this ring any bells - pointing at Kweassa , any lights turing one , or is it dark and still being blind.
If you shoose to play the weakest part of a class in pvp and defend stuff that makes TR broken in other aspects it dont really matter how much you argue, it sure dident help Instigators to keep anything and I highly daubt it will help the Tr in the long run.
Now i know that there are differances when it come to take down- roar - frontline being encounters etc but its enough simularitys to prove my point.
Best
Very very well said!
i greened the parts i really like
Scoundrels do not have the luxury of forgetting their crit stat and building power. They are hardly ever in stealth and so hardly ever get the 100% crit chance. Scoundrels build for crit and deflect - much like a traditional Rogue in fact. This has been pointed out any number of times but for some reason it's not getting through.
It's not beside the point when the point was how much extra damage ALL TRs have now. Only two trees have much higher DPS - Sab and Exe. Those trees can also put together a daze rotation on single targets very nearly as potent as the Scoundrel just by using SB and DS. Scoundrel dazes from feats are not the issue.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
The same goes for encounters f.ex. the tr gets way more out of power then Hr when it comes to encounters etc etc.
Hardly ever-- translates to starting the fight from hide every single time and you make it sound like they dont escape through hide only to attack from hide again. That they fight more then other Trs in the cower of daze dont change the fact that the extra damage from 100% crit/first strike is considerable higher then in module 4.
Now read my former post again and if you still dont get why it doesent matter how you argue this I will have to explain it again in even more detailed way i guess.
It is exactly the POINT if those other path can abuse daze and you defend daze in the 3rd part its EXACLY like Instigator defending roar and knock downs.
'I dont matter if you play the LEAST powerful path if a skill/feat/power/daily helps make the other path broken because of bad mechanics whish you can abuse the least it has to change mkay.
Roar in itself wasent a game breaker it was what happend when you where hit with roar (much like daze) together with other class mechanics in the gwf class that made it broken.
Nobody would care so much if module 4 dc had used roar would they ....
When you argue a case its very hard when the facts is guilty from the start and you very soon end up on the defencive attacking the very arguments of your opponents and if you read through almost every single thread about Trs this is the case.
Evidence on evidence are stacked up why the Tr is to OP and broken and over and over again some Trs try to explain why its not by either attacking HOW and not WHY it was written or by simply saying that they dont know what the are talking about and need to l2p.
You are defending a lost cause - Trs are broken in pvp(again I have no wish to change Trs in pve) and things need to change that is the essence of the storry and being the TRUE case no matter how much you try the evidence are out there and obvioust to all but a few stubborn Trs that refuse to see the ligh.....
Best
PS(for the tone of the discussion I will add that I find that your way of arguing is sound and healthy and that I dont find that you bash others they way Kweassa does for wish am greatful and it makes you a much better advocate for the Trs sake imho)
Mod 4 TRs were trash, with perma being the ONLY viable build, and that build did no damage. As a DC player, who also did no damage in mod 4, I'd always just go to the point with the enemy TR to keep it contested and we'd spit on each other without resolution.
In Mod 5, TRs can hurt you now and DCs aren't a way to add up cheap kills anymore without the ability to fight back. Welcome to a movement toward balance.
This is not to say that some tweaks aren't needed, but to keep talking about insane damage of TRs and calling for Scoundrels to lose the one ability that makes them viable (as they are the only TR path that requires crit, has low stealth uptime, and lowest damage) is simply ludicrous. Load up ACT and show that amazing damage you're seeing from Scoundrels. It's just really not there.
Dazing Strike might need to be looked at, as activation is short and the base daze seems to last a decent amount of time (I don't have the numbers), but I'm still more offended by the nigh undodgeable Icy Rays. But Dazing Strike's mechanics has NOTHING to do with the scoundrel feats. Tweaks that need to be made will be made, just as the nerf came to Disheartening Strike.
Mod 5 is in play, and there will be more changes to come. Stop comparing TRs AND DCs to their previous incarnations because they are GONE. These are ostensibly new classes.
P.S. 7/10 times if you're hit by the flurry portion of Duelist Flurry, it was your own fault. The other 3/10 times, you were being controlled by another player when the TR hit you.
Here is the % of top characters:
TR 52%, DC 13%, HR 13%, GWF 10%, CW 10%, GF 2%, SW 0%
Here is the ratio kills vs death:
TR 8.1 kills for 1 death
DC 2.2 kills for 1 death
HR 4.8 kills for 1 death
GWF 5.6 kills for 1 death
CW 2.5 kills for 1 death
SW 0 kills for 0 deaths
Are TR players (52%) better than the total of all other characters players (48%) of Neverwinter?
Or is it something else????
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Is this your new tactic?
Since you can't really prove or disprove that dazes are problematic in the way you claim, much less even care about the issue as to provide a single PvP footage which shows how MIs are dazing you 24/7, you simply move over to blanket statesments and meaningless statistics to bash the TRs as a whole.
Way to go on with a crusade, sahib. :rolleyes:
[EDIT]
How many of those are Scoundrels? At an even a glance most of the names I notice are either Execs or Sabs.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
A person speaking some sense - how refreshing
Are you serious, you still deny there is something wrong????
Tactic ? now it is called tactic when somebody post something this obvious that you cant argue away,
MEANINGLESS STATISTISC -- for real ???Cant prove what - you mean if you DENY everthing that EVERYBODY post that is against your oppinion there is no evidence.
The simple TRUTH is that you are so blind so utterly BIAS that you refuse to admit what almost every single non TR see together with alot of other Trs that actually cares about the balance.
From a famous movie i will quote a phrase fitting you - YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!
Sence just lol from a DC the only class that can stand up to Tr atm and is almost as broken even if in another way, how fitting a in a crime the villian defending the crime of another villian to justify the crime....
Dc need and will with all certaincy get their healing and maby even damage adjusted (not to mention sun burst) also even if that is a lesser problem right now.
Everybody has seen some DC both heal and survive redicules amounts of focus in such a way that it is in need of looking into.
And I seen some dc lay down hurt on other players like the best of the best cws even if they are few and far appart.
Leadership board is trash and can be abused and you should take statistic from it with a grain of salt at best BUT this can not be denied its to big of a picture and when put together with the experiance of all other players and all threads there can only be one conclusion - PVP TR NEED TO BE ADJUSTED BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO MUCH DAMAGE COMPARED TO SURVIVABILTY AND CCS.
I find it laughable that you admonish Kweassa for being dismissive, but you do this more fervently than he does. I've seen many of his postings, many of which are highly insightful and includes detailed TESTING, while others have been less than polite. We're all human, and this happens, although in our most emotional moments we should be showing some restraint and remind ourselves that THIS IS A GAME before posting.
That said, you seem to be missing the point when it comes to balance. You are using blanket statements calling ALL TRs (and in that post ALL DCs) OP. If one makes a build to be highly survivable through damage mitigation or healing, they aren't doing loads of damage. The converse is also true. If someone makes a control build with a TR, they aren't nuking anyone either. This is NOTHING like the GWF prone lock of Mod 3.
When mod 4 came into play and, with full profound armour and 26 wisdom, I was still perma-controlled by CWs, I didn't whine about all CWs being OP. Since you want to quote movies, I'll quote from Heartbreak Ridge, "You adapt. You overcome. You improvise."
If all someone can do is complain because they are unable to do that, or because they are simply trolls, then remember the famous quote from Gone with the Wind.
Happy Holidays everyone. Peace.
I have repeatedly said that I think daze should respect CC resists and immunities in PvP like it does in PvE, and if it isn't then it needs to be fixed. Once that has been done THEN evaluate how daze is working and IF NECESSARY reduce daze durations in PvP only. This is NOT a blanket defence of daze - it's a logical and methodical course of action. What I HAVE argued against is the calls for a blanket nerf to all dazes without any hard facts about whether they are working correctly or not right now and with what appears to be some misinformation about how the mechanic works in the first place. The vast majority of calls for nerfs have focussed on the Scoundrel feats and as I have explained I don't think these are the cause of the problems people are having with dazes.
This is actually not true. There is plenty of empirical evidence that some aspects of the TR are either not WAI or maybe OP, but there is very little hard evidence with supporting facts. And much of the empirical evidence is provided alongside comments that prove that the person making the claims doesn't actually know what happened to him or how the mechanics he wants to nerf actually work. While I don't think it's all an L2P issue there is definitely some of that involved - many people are just not used to TRs being dangerous and have not developed strategies to cope. Similarly, some TRs have never developed an ability to fight outside of stealth and are now suffering badly with the new stealth reveal tactics.
I'm not defending any cause other than arguing against false claims and nerfs that will harm PvE Rogues. I'm happy to engage with facts instead of opinions and unsupported statements, but most of the nerf calls are just that.
I play a Scoundrel every day in PvE. It does not feel OP. And I have both a CW and Combat HR so I know what OP feels like. People keep telling me how much better a real player is than a mob, so I just find it hard to believe that something that is not OP in PvE is so much more dangerous in PvP. Unless some powers like daze are not working the same...
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
When the HR first launched I took my lowbie-geared Archer hybrid into PvP and racked up K/D ratios very similar to what some TRs are posting now. This was not because I was an ace PvPer - I'm about average for my GS - or because the class was OP. It was because nobody had seen HRs before and so didn't know how to play against them. As people got used to HRs my K/D ratio declined and settled out somewhere in the 'normal' range. I think we're seeing some of the same effect with TRs now.
Another note about OP builds and tactics to combat them...
In Mod 3 everyone was complaining about permstealth, and it was especially deadly for CWs. Rather than give up I took some theorycrafting that someone posted on here and developed it into a specialised CW build that could find and kill any TR easily. I hunted them for fun. Sometimes it just takes some out-of-the-box thinking.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Ok appart from wanting to write a post do you have a point to it or just felt to impart some of your great wisdome like - because never in the history of NW has a class dominated in PVP the way Trs does now.
Not to mention -- saying it was ok that cw nuked everhing to bits in 3 sec flat all you need to do was to adapt overcome and improvise -
awesome now we know I think i quote that movie for ya as a tnx for your great insight your sharing with us -Frankly my dear - I dont give a dam....
If we talk about Tr in general this is simply not the truth.
First of all we have all players that experiance that Tr is OP from nabs to the most geared in premades, second we have the KD ratios that tells us that something is clearly amiss then we have the leaderboards from both our server and the russian server also telling us that something is very very wrong with the balance.
Next we have set up where we match classes against eachother with simular gearscore 1-1 and 1-2 and then again the same with differnt gs.
Now here is where you simple cant deny the emperical facts that Tr comes out not only as the winner among this but stands in a state of close to godhood compared to the other classes.
No class can match Trs in even gs no class can even phantom of going out victorious against 2 Trs fighting 1-2.
But yet a Tr at 14k can easely win against many classes if not all with 21gs that is 7k gs higher whish is huge.
Same goes for a Tr in 1-2 where the Tr can beat alot of other combinations of classes and I dare to say is the only class capable of doing so on a regular basis.
This is all common knowledge and clearly enough evidence that the TR need to be toned down in PVP.
In fact the evidence that Tr are OP in PVP is so abundant clear that denying it .. well the kindest word i can come up with is redicules.
Yea well then start to believe if you play melee Hr compare it with sw in pve and pvp and you start to comprehend the HUGE difference in pvp compared to pve.
You can be devastating efficent in pve and a totally useless in pvp just because of that your fighting against something that reacts to counter you moves in pvp for one of 100nds of other reason.
But i think we all are getting a bit tired of this YES:NO YES:NO discussions and maby its time to hand it over to the devs and do the best we can of the situation I dont think we will get much further with 100 more threads like this.
The sad part is that pvp is dieing and even if there is no empirical data for it those that I talked to says its mosly because of the imbalance between Tr and other classes that they quit...
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