Now back to subject. There is little to no chance to CC a properly playing character with a full pvp gear and tenacity above 20%. This was vastly explained to you in couple of extensive post made by "Ignorant Kweassa".
But you are one of those players that had been standing still after getting dazed.
I have tenacity 27 on my 20k hr and i certainly dont stand still unless absolutly have to using some at will or encounter/daily and that LITTLE chanse is very much depending on how good you play your Tr isent it.
There is little to no chance to CC a properly playing character with a full pvp gear and tenacity above 20%.
This part I find very interesting indeed. Are you saying that Tr cant cc those with 20%+tenacity in PVP because if you do am sure we dont play the same game and am pretty sure alot of people can tell you otherwise..
These posting still dont matter much do they, discussing sematics dont change the fact that Tr are broken in PVP and they need to be brought donw in line with the other classes so pvp can become fun and playeble again mkay,,,,
You seem like saying that it is difficult but it theory possible to chain the daze effects.
But that’s not my point.
I’m saying that on top of the capability of high dazing effects Tr can use the total immunity of Impossible to Catch and also enjoying dazing effect of Skullcracker and it’s fairly easy to use all of these to control at least 75% of a fight (even more).
And this while let’s say a daily like Bloodbath is getting ready to strike without the possibility of the opponent to counterattack, again.
So I'm steal asking: Is TR daze to long combine with Scoundrel feats????? And I add to long even without it?
So SHOW ME.
Gimme a name of the TR who does it, something, anything... because most of the TRs that are 'high level' -- so to speak -- aren't even Scoundrels to begin with. Even after the 'reveal stealth' changes most of those I know are predominantly staying with Sabs, or have moved over to Executioners experimentally.
According to those 'high-level' TRs in premade level matches, they aren't usually too crazy about 'technical fighting' builds, and usually prefer raw-power, high-burst, quick-killing builds because that suits the premade environment better, than a relatively low-damage, tech-fight build which is tweaked more towards personal enjoyment of combat. brollax, sic, nanners, anyone from Absolute, EoA, PurpDragons, Nightmares, ChocShoppe, etc etc, any famous 'TR' who has a name there, any of the regular TRs you see in the forums here like VicDeli... not a single TR I know is true-blue Scoundrel.
Scoundrels, good ones, are predominantly players who have experience but would rather not fight in premades, so generally on the playing level that is maybe one or two notches below top-level TRs. Both morenthar and I are in the same category, people who'd probably hang out between page 6~15 of the leaderboards when they really try, but usually would just rather have more fun in chaotic fights and stuff -- these TRs play scoundrels, not the top premade types.
morenthar and I are probably the only real die-hard Scoundrel enthusiasts because both of us are 'tech-fighter' types who enjoy personal bouts more than the cold and calculating 'the team must win' mentality, hence one of the reasons why we don't really enjoy premade level fights, and would rather risk the company of random PuG teams. In other words, Scoundrels are generally considered fun 1vs1 duelists, but they are not widely accepted in real premade matches because their efficiency as a domination PvP class is clearly limited.
But you're saying as if this is a problem that repeats and persists so often as to be a real threat to CWs everywhere, and to even GOOD CW players, since you're claiming to be one. If that be the case, show me how a MI/Sco with only ONE real dazing power and usually no access to ranged attacks, can daze a CW permanently, because its one of those things that are technically not feasible in real combat.
Imagien the kung-fu flicks, how the protagonist evades, blocks, parries every punch and kick thrown it at him. If the TR can fight like that, then what you experience will be the norm, except it ain't. In actual NW combat, things don't work out like that. And what you say the TRs can do, is only possible with movie-level precision.
So if there's a premade-level scoundrel TR who does in reality what I only think possible in movie-fantasies, please show me. I must speak to him to go learn it or something.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
there's a difference between a scoundrel chain-dazing you and a sab/exe dazing you. this thread is about scoundrels so a 1-time daze is not what this thread is about
..
Dodge roll Dodge roll /hide ITC /hide away we go come back lashing/daily dead ....
You know others die when faced 1-2 its called high rist I understand the consept is alien to ya,,,
never seen a scoundrel even slot lashing since it's more of an executioner skill. shocking execution can be heard from stealth and bloodbath was fixed so it's not even lethal anymore (and only was lethal from sabs). every single daze can be dodged from stealth except the unlikely deft strike and it's never followed by a daily.
also i said procs, not encounters. we can literally lose over half our hp instantly to a few at-wills and we don't have the stamina to just spam dodges against at-wills contrary to what some people say.
So you had and exeriance out of the ordinare whish means that the norm of having most Trs dont means a win or ....
You are making such a strong case.
no. clerics literally win games if they are faithfuls due to the sheer amount of effort it takes to kill 1. it highly depends on whether or not 1 of the rogues can 1-shot them.
There was some very hard to kill Gwfs back then but 1,they dident have the KD ratio of the Trs today 2 they needed bis gear to pull it off compared to todays 13kgs Trs 3 they still dident reach the KD ratio of todays TRs 4. two wrongs sure doesent make it better do whats your angle here?
probably true that it did take a lot of gear, but still doesn't change the fact that it was doable. i have seen plenty of rogues in the 10-16k gs range get HAMSTER for ratios, run when they are about to die, fail to 1-shot me twice when he has help and i am alone, etc. they might get nice ratios for prioritizing their own lives and running with all their might with their soulforge, but that's not a true representation of what actually happens in their matches and it's sad when they fail to get the most kills.
i'm just letting you know that it might have been possible if leaderboards existed back then.
Am taling about quitting pvp even if leaving the game can be the result of it and never has pvp suffered such a waste drop before and the sole biggest reason for it is the OPness of the TR atm.
maybe, but i find it funny since i consider the abuse from the gwf's in mod 2 to be far more demoralizing. the people that i pvped with that ran into countless matches where a lone gwf jumps up into campfire and kills everyone single-handedly without breaking a sweat has caused many people i know to give up on pvp as well (maybe a few matches for daily but thats it)
It is also obvious the world is created by a flying spaghetti monster. You don't need proof to believe it. Everyone just knows.
Well if this is your argument I guess it makes as much sence as you defending the Tr class and the rest of your postings, kinda fits in a way.
What deflect?
The OP claims he's getting perma dazed, chain dazed regularly for over 10 seconds. That's his complaint. So I'm asking him to show me how that happens.
How about you, marni, can you show me
It dont matter if you cced 10 sec 8 sec or 5 sec really as I said before an eternity in pvp and if you actually read my post without trying to find fault in the text but focused onthe message (something i come to realize is a very hard thing for ya) you would have figured out that it was about how you focus on bashing HOW poeple write things instead of WHY they write things in a feeble attempt to deflect the discussion away from THAT Tr is a broken class.
What really bugges me is that I like alot of that I read when you write about elitism and the poeple in high end pvp guilds and their bahavior, it is both well analyzed and well written and then you come up with all this nonsence defending something so obviously broken as the Tr class, it just dont make sence.
I mean if you can have such a good distance to things when it comes to overall gameplay and the poeple in with such an obviously long term exeriance (much like me in that case with almost 20 yaers of pvp gaming) how can you not see this it is as I said confusing and bugging me....
Gimme a name of the TR who does it, something, anything... because most of the TRs that are 'high level' -- so to speak -- aren't even Scoundrels to begin with. Even after the 'reveal stealth' changes most of those I know are predominantly staying with Sabs, or have moved over to Executioners experimentally.
According to those 'high-level' TRs in premade level matches, they aren't usually too crazy about 'technical fighting' builds, and usually prefer raw-power, high-burst, quick-killing builds because that suits the premade environment better, than a relatively low-damage, tech-fight build which is tweaked more towards personal enjoyment of combat. brollax, sic, nanners, anyone from Absolute, EoA, PurpDragons, Nightmares, ChocShoppe, etc etc, any famous 'TR' who has a name there, any of the regular TRs you see in the forums here like VicDeli... not a single TR I know is true-blue Scoundrel.
Scoundrels, good ones, are predominantly players who have experience but would rather not fight in premades, so generally on the playing level that is maybe one or two notches below top-level TRs. Both morenthar and I are in the same category, people who'd probably hang out between page 6~15 of the leaderboards when they really try, but usually would just rather have more fun in chaotic fights and stuff -- these TRs play scoundrels, not the top premade types.
morenthar and I are probably the only real die-hard Scoundrel enthusiasts because both of us are 'tech-fighter' types who enjoy personal bouts more than the cold and calculating 'the team must win' mentality, hence one of the reasons why we don't really enjoy premade level fights, and would rather risk the company of random PuG teams. In other words, Scoundrels are generally considered fun 1vs1 duelists, but they are not widely accepted in real premade matches because their efficiency as a domination PvP class is clearly limited.
But you're saying as if this is a problem that repeats and persists so often as to be a real threat to CWs everywhere, and to even GOOD CW players, since you're claiming to be one. If that be the case, show me how a MI/Sco with only ONE real dazing power and usually no access to ranged attacks, can daze a CW permanently, because its one of those things that are technically not feasible in real combat.
Imagien the kung-fu flicks, how the protagonist evades, blocks, parries every punch and kick thrown it at him. If the TR can fight like that, then what you experience will be the norm, except it ain't. In actual NW combat, things don't work out like that. And what you say the TRs can do, is only possible with movie-level precision.
So if there's a premade-level scoundrel TR who does in reality what I only think possible in movie-fantasies, please show me. I must speak to him to go learn it or something.
You still don't answer.
I’m saying that a least 70% of a fight can be control or avoid being hurt by the use of daze effects, Impossible to Catch and stealth and if you’re telling me it’s not possible then you’re really not a good player or a hypocrite.
I’m saying that a least 70% of a fight can be control or avoid being hurt by the use of daze effects, Impossible to Catch and stealth and if you’re telling me it’s not possible then you’re really not a good player or a hypocrite.
That's not what you said. Your words keep change as I request for proof.
You specifically mentioned a TR dazes you for 100% of the time, as in perma, and then sometimes you say something else. And now, it has been stealthily changed into a very vague and unspecific term by mentioning, at least 70% of the fight.
At least 70% of what? The time? The situation?
When a TR is free to strike first, it is true a lot of that initiative remains as an advantage to the TR. But then when a CW catches a TR off-guard, then does the CW not have that advantage? How about when a HR lands a diruptive shot on you first, and then follows with a classic boar-charge initiated combo, and then soon proceeds into stealth? Do you complain about how the HR holds the initiative?
You first start out with a complaint against perma dazes and super long dazes, and then now you proceed to criticize the combat initiative the TR holds in stealth. What are you saying? It's wrong for a TR to hold the advantage when he manages his fights well enough to keep someone at bay?
You wanna know how to flush out a Scoundrel from stealth? Especially from a MI/Scoundrel?
Extend. Just walk in one direction until his stealth runs out, whether or you're not dazed. There's nothing the MI can do to you after the first few combos, and he'll just make a run for it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
That's not what you said. Your words keep change as I request for proof.
You specifically mentioned a TR dazes you for 100% of the time, as in perma, and then sometimes you say something else. And now, it has been stealthily changed into a very vague and unspecific term by mentioning, at least 70% of the fight.
At least 70% of what? The time? The situation?
When a TR is free to strike first, it is true a lot of that initiative remains as an advantage to the TR. But then when a CW catches a TR off-guard, then does the CW not have that advantage? How about when a HR lands a diruptive shot on you first, and then follows with a classic boar-charge initiated combo, and then soon proceeds into stealth? Do you complain about how the HR holds the initiative?
You first start out with a complaint against perma dazes and super long dazes, and then now you proceed to criticize the combat initiative the TR holds in stealth. What are you saying? It's wrong for a TR to hold the advantage when he manages his fights well enough to keep someone at bay?
You wanna know how to flush out a Scoundrel from stealth? Especially from a MI/Scoundrel?
Extend. Just walk in one direction until his stealth runs out, whether or you're not dazed. There's nothing the MI can do to you after the first few combos, and he'll just make a run for it.
Here is my first statement:
I found after fighting a considerable number of fights against TR
That TR daze abilities cause by Shadow Strike, Dazing Strike, Smoke Bomb are too much if you add over the daze effect of Scoudrel Skullcracker. It gets to a point it’s nearly impossible to fight, being control up to 75% of the time when TR is not in stealth mode.
I didn't put everything in my statement it would have been too long but you can add the daze effect of Concussive Strikes feat if you want and you will get to 10 seconds.
And still you are avoiding the question is it to long yes or no and why???
From Stealth = Guaranteed Crit So Cloud Of Steel Procs A Feat Called Concussive Strike = Daze For 2.5sec
Now Shadow Strike (Or Any Encounter For That Matter) Which Procs Skullcracker = Daze for 4 Sec
Now Follow Up Attacks Up to 4 = 4 Cloud Of Steel Attacks 0.5sec daze each= Adds Additional 2sec Daze For Skullckracker
Now Follow Up With Last Strike = Dazing Strike = Daze For Additional 4sec
{At this point u may be able to pull off another Concussive strike if u have high cirt but its still only a chance since u probably don't have stealth up }
Add That Up I wont Even Bother Posting Since Id Rather See Some People Use Some Math Skills -
U MUST BE IMMENSLY SKILLED TO PULL THIS OFF IN REPITITION AND OVERALL DAMAGE IS LOW!!!!!!
PRO TIP - WHILE UNDER SKULLCRACKER U RECIEVE 50% MORE DAMAGE - PLAY SMARTER NOT HARDER!
Basically all I can tell u is 1v1 ur screwed! Better have Tenacity - That's What It's For
Just be lucky Path of Blade Doesn't Proc Any Of Those Skills From Stealth Or Not From Stealth
(Let me also add that anyone that can read can make a lvl 1 TR and see exactly how long u can daze someone by reading tooltips I just explained to you)
I found after fighting a considerable number of fights against TR
That TR daze abilities cause by Shadow Strike, Dazing Strike, Smoke Bomb are too much if you add over the daze effect of Scoudrel Skullcracker. It gets to a point it’s nearly impossible to fight, being control up to 75% of the time when TR is not in stealth mode.
...and previously, without the recent changes to TRs, TRs found it impossible to fight at all since he'd spend not only 75%, but 100% of the time under control when not in stealth. As a matter of fact, once the initiative is lost it's still the same. Did you complain about your own class and how it was unfair? Did you come up with an imposement of a self-class nerf? Or were you one of the CWs that'd give out a nice LoL and then simply freeze-blast the TR to death within one and a half rotations?
I didn't put everything in my statement it would have been too long but you can add the daze effect of Concussive Strikes feat if you want and you will get to 10 seconds.
And still you are avoiding the question is it to long yes or no and why???
Because you've not presented any proof when the burden of proof befalls on the accuser, not the accused. You say something happens that you can't deal with. I say you're lying. Simple way to prove who is right -- bring forth the evidence in front of the eyes of the court.
It's still not happening. I can wait a couple of days since obviously you can't just cook up something instantly, but you don't friggin' get to ask anything when you, an accuser, haven't presented anything that backs up your accusatio in the first place.
I could probably come up with realistic examples how the 'long daze' actually happens with WKs, and under what circumstances it fails miserably, but you'd probably not believe me and will say, "you're failing on purpose" or something like that.
So, I'm still waiting. I've already responded to your idiot claims on 'theoretical daze durations' and I don't intend to repeat it.
I'll be waiting for something that's not just words.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
18K GS plus TR Scoundrel does the sequence practically all the time.
But that was an example and yes I think also that all daze duration against players should be reviewed.
I suspect you're overstating the case as usual. After all we know from previous posts that you like to just stand still and cast rather than move around and dodge. And Skullcracker is meant to be difficult to dodge. It's the capstone feat.
I suspect you're overstating the case as usual. After all we know from previous posts that you like to just stand still and cast rather than move around and dodge. And Skullcracker is meant to be difficult to dodge. It's the capstone feat.
'Standing still' or running in small circles is absolutely the WORST possible response to being dazed.
One very distinct feature of NW is that it is extremely unfriendly to melees, due to the fact that any slight movement will make it absolutely impossible to land a series of melee attacks. Only melee powers that have innate homing/tracking abilities (ex. GWF Threatening Rush) -- most commonly referred to as 'gap closers' make it possible to land melee attacks.
In most cases just running straight in one direction, is usually enough to be rid of further attacks. Ofcourse, ranged attacks still land, but considering the circumstances of a daze most likely the TR is out of stealth, and CoS from outside stealth, is simply pathetic in damage.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
'Standing still' or running in small circles is absolutely the WORST possible response to being dazed.
In most cases just running straight in one direction, is usually enough to be rid of further attacks. Ofcourse, ranged attacks still land, but considering the circumstances of a daze most likely the TR is out of stealth, and CoS from outside stealth, is simply pathetic in damage.
My point exactly. I find myself one of the few mi scoundrels playing there on top 10 and i know what im saying when its very hard to land a full rotation on a propely geared and skilled player. I do find weaker players a pray tho, but it has been always like that even before mod 5. The majority of players have fixed set of gear and artifacts for pvp thinking its fine, where its not. Swaping artifacts is as important as swaping skills in a fight. Im not event mentioning things like recognition of specific builds and tactics because thats a basis.
For daze the duration is fine since we can still move
the solution is to increase cooldown of encounter at least 5s consider how well TR stack recovery
or reduce the area of dazed to half so need skill and accuration to land dazed
'Standing still' or running in small circles is absolutely the WORST possible response to being dazed.
One very distinct feature of NW is that it is extremely unfriendly to melees, due to the fact that any slight movement will make it absolutely impossible to land a series of melee attacks. Only melee powers that have innate homing/tracking abilities (ex. GWF Threatening Rush) -- most commonly referred to as 'gap closers' make it possible to land melee attacks.
In most cases just running straight in one direction, is usually enough to be rid of further attacks. Ofcourse, ranged attacks still land, but considering the circumstances of a daze most likely the TR is out of stealth, and CoS from outside stealth, is simply pathetic in damage.
There is no problem with current PvP with TR over powered -version, I just dont go there untill it is different from current and I understand that anyone is free to protect current model if it feels good.
TR can daze, chain DAze, 10 second daze if like but... have fun.
For daze the duration is fine since we can still move
the solution is to increase cooldown of encounter at least 5s consider how well TR stack recovery
or reduce the area of dazed to half so need skill and accuration to land dazed
Piejal, where on Earth are you getting this idea that TRs can stack Recovery so well?
You have to bear in mind that jarecsteph is the guy who thought that TRs get 4 encounters, marnival just plain hates TRs, and piejal seems to know nothing whatsoever about how the game works. These people are not really worth arguing with and I doubt any of their comments will be considered by the devs as they are completely lacking in any actual information.
You have to bear in mind that jarecsteph is the guy who thought that TRs get 4 encounters, marnival just plain hates TRs, and piejal seems to know nothing whatsoever about how the game works. These people are not really worth arguing with and I doubt any of their comments will be considered by the devs as they are completely lacking in any actual information.
Figured as much. Just pity the Kweassa's effort explaining the basics to those sponge bobs.
You have to bear in mind that jarecsteph is the guy who thought that TRs get 4 encounters, marnival just plain hates TRs, and piejal seems to know nothing whatsoever about how the game works. These people are not really worth arguing with and I doubt any of their comments will be considered by the devs as they are completely lacking in any actual information.
Not true, I got an error in one of my description and made the change.
Man you’re always insulting others and never make constructive comments.
Please don't write to threads if you don't have anything else to say but insults.
...and previously, without the recent changes to TRs, TRs found it impossible to fight at all since he'd spend not only 75%, but 100% of the time under control when not in stealth. As a matter of fact, once the initiative is lost it's still the same. Did you complain about your own class and how it was unfair? Did you come up with an imposement of a self-class nerf? Or were you one of the CWs that'd give out a nice LoL and then simply freeze-blast the TR to death within one and a half rotations?
Because you've not presented any proof when the burden of proof befalls on the accuser, not the accused. You say something happens that you can't deal with. I say you're lying. Simple way to prove who is right -- bring forth the evidence in front of the eyes of the court.
It's still not happening. I can wait a couple of days since obviously you can't just cook up something instantly, but you don't friggin' get to ask anything when you, an accuser, haven't presented anything that backs up your accusatio in the first place.
I could probably come up with realistic examples how the 'long daze' actually happens with WKs, and under what circumstances it fails miserably, but you'd probably not believe me and will say, "you're failing on purpose" or something like that.
So, I'm still waiting. I've already responded to your idiot claims on 'theoretical daze durations' and I don't intend to repeat it.
I'll be waiting for something that's not just words.
This morning 2 TR have the hability to do what I'm talking about
and here some kind of proof (I don't want to name anybody)
But your comments are not very honest in my opinion
You have to bear in mind that jarecsteph is the guy who thought that TRs get 4 encounters, marnival just plain hates TRs, and piejal seems to know nothing whatsoever about how the game works. These people are not really worth arguing with and I doubt any of their comments will be considered by the devs as they are completely lacking in any actual information.
Well I stated I dont want Trs to reverse to module 4 i stated that I dont think TRs need nerf in pve so much for the hate.
When i played gwf as main in module 2 i quit and started a Hr and played my Gf with Hr instead and advocated for Gwfs being out of control and was branded as Gwf hater by those refusing to admit it and came with the same comment you do --l2p
.
Then i quit playing my HR in module 4 because they where simply to op in pvp also and was branded Hr hater when i wrote some stuff about that.
So I picked up my Gwf again and play him whith my Gf and Sw and now that I point out that Tr is broken I become a Tr hater also funny how things turn out isent it.
About lacking information if you cant gather why Tr is OP by reading all threads about it (even form other Trs that knows that if this continues and the nerf hammer hits Trs the same way it hit Gwfs it will leave the Tr class in the same pittyful state the Gwf is in atm) and by the experiance you get in entering PVP I cant say am the one that are clueless.
You can argue for the sake of argument or you can actually try to be constuctive in how you argue- that is trying to see the point of the argument and drive it forward for a mutal understanding.
What i oppose to is when people voice a consern about something when it comes to TR having to much dam, having to much cc, having to much survivability, having to fast movement, needing very little gear compared to other classes etc etc you enter the thread with demands for evidence or attack the way it was written etc etc.
That is called destructive argumentation and it is not aimed to resovle or move the argumentation forward but to attack the writer and not what was the intension or the reason why it was written.
In this state for anybody to even attempt to defend the Tr you must be extreamly Bias or lack any knowledge what so ever about the balance between the classes.
I see no need to go into the actual game mechanics of every power/feat or combination of those as they are delt with in several threads by others with more information about the Tr class, but i do see the need of Trs getting balanced toward other classes and in that I also see the need of pointing out how you try to defend this Tr OPness nonsence with a failed argumentative technical format.
Figured as much. Just pity the Kweassa's effort explaining the basics to those sponge bobs.
He does not explain anything he focus on destroying others arguments in an attempt to defend the Tr class.
The basics dont need to be explained they are felt every time you enter a pvp match nowdays hence all the threads about TR being broken atm.
Or do you live with the delusion that Tr are balanced and all other players are wrong and need to l2p as those defending the class.
The nerf will come and frankly all those that shoose to try to defend it by saying all other are clueless are probably just going to make the nerf hammer hit so much harder.....
For daze the duration is fine since we can still move
the solution is to increase cooldown of encounter at least 5s consider how well TR stack recovery
or reduce the area of dazed to half so need skill and accuration to land dazed
That's a view I respect (but for me only a way to look at)
This morning 2 TR have the hability to do what I'm talking about
and here some kind of proof (I don't want to name anybody)
But your comments are not very honest in my opinion
Jarecsteph, you might want to be a bit more complete with your editing technique. Whilst you've successfully obscured yourself and another, you've made no attempt to cover quite a few other names. I'm pretty sure it breaches RoC.
That aside, what you're describing as "some kind of proof" is tenuous at best.
Whilst giving you the benefit of doubt, firstly it could easily have been orchestrated, and secondly it's clearly only a part of the conversation and so has probably lost context along the way.
Jarecsteph, you might want to be a bit more complete with your editing technique. Whilst you've successfully obscured yourself and another, you've made no attempt to cover quite a few other names. I'm pretty sure it breaches RoC.
That aside, what you're describing as "some kind of proof" is tenuous at best.
Whilst giving you the benefit of doubt, firstly it could easily have been orchestrated, and secondly it's clearly only a part of the conversation and so has probably lost context along the way.
The other names were not involved in our discussion. I didn't even though it would have been a problem!
And for the rest I just lost 3 times in a row to the situation I’m writing in this thread.
So after the third one I wrote to the TR and you see the answer.
So now that I gave you some kind of proof it as to be discarding???
So what more can I say; or you are not honest or you don’t know very well the TR characters and I hope you are the last one.
There is no problem with current PvP with TR over powered -version, I just dont go there untill it is different from current and I understand that anyone is free to protect current model if it feels good.
TR can daze, chain DAze, 10 second daze if like but... have fun.
It has been adequately explained in prior posts that chain-dazes that result in a total dazed duration of over 8~9 seconds, is almost entirely, exclusively the work of a Whisperknife, who has no ITC, and instead has VP, which thankfully has the added feature of being able to activate first attack from range, that doesn't consume stealth.
The "super-duper MI/Scoundrel that chain-lulz-dazes people to 9~10 seconds straight, and then simply uses ITCs for 5 seconds and gets another Skull Cracker ready so he can continue to daze 24/7 = permadaze instead of permastealth" these people are trying to have the community believe, simply does not exist.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The other names were not involved in our discussion. I didn't even though it would have been a problem!
And for the rest I just lost 3 times in a row to the situation I’m writing in this thread.
So after the third one I wrote to the TR and you see the answer.
So now that I gave you some kind of proof it as to be discarding???
So what more can I say; or you are not honest or you don’t know very well the TR characters and I hope you are the last one.
Did I stutter?
When do we get to see how you fight a MI/Scoundrel in vid?
Now I feel really, really stupid for ALL THE ******* EFFORT it took for me to explain why MIs don't get to chain daze so easily in combat, and how many times do I have to tell you that long, chain dazes are the product of WKs and not MIS?
Sure, I can cook up a "theoretical" 10 second daze with a MI by simply throwing a CoS, continuing with SS, and then finishing with Dazing Strike. But you don't call that 'combat' -- it's called a 'show', because in actual combat wasting a SS just because it dazes from stealth is something no TR would ever do. COMBAT SIMPLY FRICKIN' DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY. I've already spoken of "movie-fantasy" -- in actual combat you don't use your precious few powers that way, especially since MIs have only ONE encounter that's for offense.
So no, I don't see how that's a proof of anything.
Give me PvP footage of you meeting the all-so-common MI/Scoundrel and where he stuns you for 10 seconds straight. You say its a common thing and every good TR can do it. I'm the one who invented the whole Scoundrel tactics and I know for sure I can't do that so easily with a MI/Sco.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Nice Wall-O-Text there. Quantity over quality as usual though.
Balance between classes is a pipe dream. It'll never happen. And frankly I gave up caring about PvP when Glyphs became a thing. What I'm interested in is exposing the biased and ignorant misinformation posted by the ranters and whiners without any regard to the impact of the nerfs they're calling for on the vast majority of players who don't PvP. It's pathetic and self-serving.
Almost all the problematic abilities are in one tree and could be addressed with minimal impact on PvE, but folk like you flail around trying to destroy the entire class. Because you don't understand what's actually happening or how those abilities work.
You are also apparently unable to comprehend the written word since I have frequently stated that one TR tree is overpowered due to it's combination of permastealth and high damage. And yet you claim I defend 'OPness'. No. I defend a class I enjoy playing from ignorant ranting when the ranter clearly has no clue.
The "super-duper MI/Scoundrel that chain-lulz-dazes people to 9~10 seconds straight, and then simply uses ITCs for 5 seconds and gets another Skull Cracker ready so he can continue to daze 24/7 = permadaze instead of permastealth" these people are trying to have the community believe, simply does not exist.
Lets for the argument sake say that this is correct and this kind of super-duper is a freak of imagination.
Then lets ask of together with other abilitys/encounters/dailys/at wills the cc chain that can be put out by the Trs combined with the survivabilty mechanics is to long.
Lets ask us if this daze is to much to handle for others when its combined with lashing, exe or other deadly power.
Could it be so that if the daze last 6 or 10 seconds doesent really matter because in most cases your dead any way and that is the real issue at hand?
If so can we agree to the following and that something should be done about it..
Set up a 22k Tr against any other class at 15k and see if any can beat the Tr.
Set up a 15k TR against any 22k other classes and see how many times the Tr can walk away victorious.
Set up 22k Tr against any other 2 22k player and see how many times the Tr player comes out victorious.
Now set up an 15k TR against any other 22k class and see how many times the Tr comes out victorious.
Set up a 15k Tr against any other 2 22k class and see how many times the Tr come out victiorous.
Overall I think most get the picture of what is going to happend and why the Tr class is completely broken....
Comments
I have tenacity 27 on my 20k hr and i certainly dont stand still unless absolutly have to using some at will or encounter/daily and that LITTLE chanse is very much depending on how good you play your Tr isent it.
This part I find very interesting indeed. Are you saying that Tr cant cc those with 20%+tenacity in PVP because if you do am sure we dont play the same game and am pretty sure alot of people can tell you otherwise..
These posting still dont matter much do they, discussing sematics dont change the fact that Tr are broken in PVP and they need to be brought donw in line with the other classes so pvp can become fun and playeble again mkay,,,,
So SHOW ME.
Gimme a name of the TR who does it, something, anything... because most of the TRs that are 'high level' -- so to speak -- aren't even Scoundrels to begin with. Even after the 'reveal stealth' changes most of those I know are predominantly staying with Sabs, or have moved over to Executioners experimentally.
According to those 'high-level' TRs in premade level matches, they aren't usually too crazy about 'technical fighting' builds, and usually prefer raw-power, high-burst, quick-killing builds because that suits the premade environment better, than a relatively low-damage, tech-fight build which is tweaked more towards personal enjoyment of combat. brollax, sic, nanners, anyone from Absolute, EoA, PurpDragons, Nightmares, ChocShoppe, etc etc, any famous 'TR' who has a name there, any of the regular TRs you see in the forums here like VicDeli... not a single TR I know is true-blue Scoundrel.
Scoundrels, good ones, are predominantly players who have experience but would rather not fight in premades, so generally on the playing level that is maybe one or two notches below top-level TRs. Both morenthar and I are in the same category, people who'd probably hang out between page 6~15 of the leaderboards when they really try, but usually would just rather have more fun in chaotic fights and stuff -- these TRs play scoundrels, not the top premade types.
morenthar and I are probably the only real die-hard Scoundrel enthusiasts because both of us are 'tech-fighter' types who enjoy personal bouts more than the cold and calculating 'the team must win' mentality, hence one of the reasons why we don't really enjoy premade level fights, and would rather risk the company of random PuG teams. In other words, Scoundrels are generally considered fun 1vs1 duelists, but they are not widely accepted in real premade matches because their efficiency as a domination PvP class is clearly limited.
But you're saying as if this is a problem that repeats and persists so often as to be a real threat to CWs everywhere, and to even GOOD CW players, since you're claiming to be one. If that be the case, show me how a MI/Sco with only ONE real dazing power and usually no access to ranged attacks, can daze a CW permanently, because its one of those things that are technically not feasible in real combat.
Imagien the kung-fu flicks, how the protagonist evades, blocks, parries every punch and kick thrown it at him. If the TR can fight like that, then what you experience will be the norm, except it ain't. In actual NW combat, things don't work out like that. And what you say the TRs can do, is only possible with movie-level precision.
So if there's a premade-level scoundrel TR who does in reality what I only think possible in movie-fantasies, please show me. I must speak to him to go learn it or something.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
never seen a scoundrel even slot lashing since it's more of an executioner skill. shocking execution can be heard from stealth and bloodbath was fixed so it's not even lethal anymore (and only was lethal from sabs). every single daze can be dodged from stealth except the unlikely deft strike and it's never followed by a daily.
also i said procs, not encounters. we can literally lose over half our hp instantly to a few at-wills and we don't have the stamina to just spam dodges against at-wills contrary to what some people say.
no. clerics literally win games if they are faithfuls due to the sheer amount of effort it takes to kill 1. it highly depends on whether or not 1 of the rogues can 1-shot them.
probably true that it did take a lot of gear, but still doesn't change the fact that it was doable. i have seen plenty of rogues in the 10-16k gs range get HAMSTER for ratios, run when they are about to die, fail to 1-shot me twice when he has help and i am alone, etc. they might get nice ratios for prioritizing their own lives and running with all their might with their soulforge, but that's not a true representation of what actually happens in their matches and it's sad when they fail to get the most kills.
i'm just letting you know that it might have been possible if leaderboards existed back then.
maybe, but i find it funny since i consider the abuse from the gwf's in mod 2 to be far more demoralizing. the people that i pvped with that ran into countless matches where a lone gwf jumps up into campfire and kills everyone single-handedly without breaking a sweat has caused many people i know to give up on pvp as well (maybe a few matches for daily but thats it)
because you seem to be arguing against rogues in general. this is about scoundrels not 1-shot builds
What deflect?
It dont matter if you cced 10 sec 8 sec or 5 sec really as I said before an eternity in pvp and if you actually read my post without trying to find fault in the text but focused onthe message (something i come to realize is a very hard thing for ya) you would have figured out that it was about how you focus on bashing HOW poeple write things instead of WHY they write things in a feeble attempt to deflect the discussion away from THAT Tr is a broken class.
What really bugges me is that I like alot of that I read when you write about elitism and the poeple in high end pvp guilds and their bahavior, it is both well analyzed and well written and then you come up with all this nonsence defending something so obviously broken as the Tr class, it just dont make sence.
I mean if you can have such a good distance to things when it comes to overall gameplay and the poeple in with such an obviously long term exeriance (much like me in that case with almost 20 yaers of pvp gaming) how can you not see this it is as I said confusing and bugging me....
You still don't answer.
I’m saying that a least 70% of a fight can be control or avoid being hurt by the use of daze effects, Impossible to Catch and stealth and if you’re telling me it’s not possible then you’re really not a good player or a hypocrite.
That's not what you said. Your words keep change as I request for proof.
You specifically mentioned a TR dazes you for 100% of the time, as in perma, and then sometimes you say something else. And now, it has been stealthily changed into a very vague and unspecific term by mentioning, at least 70% of the fight.
At least 70% of what? The time? The situation?
When a TR is free to strike first, it is true a lot of that initiative remains as an advantage to the TR. But then when a CW catches a TR off-guard, then does the CW not have that advantage? How about when a HR lands a diruptive shot on you first, and then follows with a classic boar-charge initiated combo, and then soon proceeds into stealth? Do you complain about how the HR holds the initiative?
You first start out with a complaint against perma dazes and super long dazes, and then now you proceed to criticize the combat initiative the TR holds in stealth. What are you saying? It's wrong for a TR to hold the advantage when he manages his fights well enough to keep someone at bay?
You wanna know how to flush out a Scoundrel from stealth? Especially from a MI/Scoundrel?
Extend. Just walk in one direction until his stealth runs out, whether or you're not dazed. There's nothing the MI can do to you after the first few combos, and he'll just make a run for it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Here is my first statement:
I found after fighting a considerable number of fights against TR
That TR daze abilities cause by Shadow Strike, Dazing Strike, Smoke Bomb are too much if you add over the daze effect of Scoudrel Skullcracker. It gets to a point it’s nearly impossible to fight, being control up to 75% of the time when TR is not in stealth mode.
I didn't put everything in my statement it would have been too long but you can add the daze effect of Concussive Strikes feat if you want and you will get to 10 seconds.
And still you are avoiding the question is it to long yes or no and why???
First Off Scoundrel TR 17k
From Stealth = Guaranteed Crit So Cloud Of Steel Procs A Feat Called Concussive Strike = Daze For 2.5sec
Now Shadow Strike (Or Any Encounter For That Matter) Which Procs Skullcracker = Daze for 4 Sec
Now Follow Up Attacks Up to 4 = 4 Cloud Of Steel Attacks 0.5sec daze each= Adds Additional 2sec Daze For Skullckracker
Now Follow Up With Last Strike = Dazing Strike = Daze For Additional 4sec
{At this point u may be able to pull off another Concussive strike if u have high cirt but its still only a chance since u probably don't have stealth up }
Add That Up I wont Even Bother Posting Since Id Rather See Some People Use Some Math Skills -
U MUST BE IMMENSLY SKILLED TO PULL THIS OFF IN REPITITION AND OVERALL DAMAGE IS LOW!!!!!!
PRO TIP - WHILE UNDER SKULLCRACKER U RECIEVE 50% MORE DAMAGE - PLAY SMARTER NOT HARDER!
Basically all I can tell u is 1v1 ur screwed! Better have Tenacity - That's What It's For
Just be lucky Path of Blade Doesn't Proc Any Of Those Skills From Stealth Or Not From Stealth
(Let me also add that anyone that can read can make a lvl 1 TR and see exactly how long u can daze someone by reading tooltips I just explained to you)
...and previously, without the recent changes to TRs, TRs found it impossible to fight at all since he'd spend not only 75%, but 100% of the time under control when not in stealth. As a matter of fact, once the initiative is lost it's still the same. Did you complain about your own class and how it was unfair? Did you come up with an imposement of a self-class nerf? Or were you one of the CWs that'd give out a nice LoL and then simply freeze-blast the TR to death within one and a half rotations?
Because you've not presented any proof when the burden of proof befalls on the accuser, not the accused. You say something happens that you can't deal with. I say you're lying. Simple way to prove who is right -- bring forth the evidence in front of the eyes of the court.
It's still not happening. I can wait a couple of days since obviously you can't just cook up something instantly, but you don't friggin' get to ask anything when you, an accuser, haven't presented anything that backs up your accusatio in the first place.
I could probably come up with realistic examples how the 'long daze' actually happens with WKs, and under what circumstances it fails miserably, but you'd probably not believe me and will say, "you're failing on purpose" or something like that.
So, I'm still waiting. I've already responded to your idiot claims on 'theoretical daze durations' and I don't intend to repeat it.
I'll be waiting for something that's not just words.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
'Standing still' or running in small circles is absolutely the WORST possible response to being dazed.
One very distinct feature of NW is that it is extremely unfriendly to melees, due to the fact that any slight movement will make it absolutely impossible to land a series of melee attacks. Only melee powers that have innate homing/tracking abilities (ex. GWF Threatening Rush) -- most commonly referred to as 'gap closers' make it possible to land melee attacks.
In most cases just running straight in one direction, is usually enough to be rid of further attacks. Ofcourse, ranged attacks still land, but considering the circumstances of a daze most likely the TR is out of stealth, and CoS from outside stealth, is simply pathetic in damage.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
My point exactly. I find myself one of the few mi scoundrels playing there on top 10 and i know what im saying when its very hard to land a full rotation on a propely geared and skilled player. I do find weaker players a pray tho, but it has been always like that even before mod 5. The majority of players have fixed set of gear and artifacts for pvp thinking its fine, where its not. Swaping artifacts is as important as swaping skills in a fight. Im not event mentioning things like recognition of specific builds and tactics because thats a basis.
the solution is to increase cooldown of encounter at least 5s consider how well TR stack recovery
or reduce the area of dazed to half so need skill and accuration to land dazed
TR can daze, chain DAze, 10 second daze if like but... have fun.
Piejal, where on Earth are you getting this idea that TRs can stack Recovery so well?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Figured as much. Just pity the Kweassa's effort explaining the basics to those sponge bobs.
Not true, I got an error in one of my description and made the change.
Man you’re always insulting others and never make constructive comments.
Please don't write to threads if you don't have anything else to say but insults.
This morning 2 TR have the hability to do what I'm talking about
and here some kind of proof (I don't want to name anybody)
But your comments are not very honest in my opinion
[IMG][/img]
Well I stated I dont want Trs to reverse to module 4 i stated that I dont think TRs need nerf in pve so much for the hate.
When i played gwf as main in module 2 i quit and started a Hr and played my Gf with Hr instead and advocated for Gwfs being out of control and was branded as Gwf hater by those refusing to admit it and came with the same comment you do --l2p
.
Then i quit playing my HR in module 4 because they where simply to op in pvp also and was branded Hr hater when i wrote some stuff about that.
So I picked up my Gwf again and play him whith my Gf and Sw and now that I point out that Tr is broken I become a Tr hater also funny how things turn out isent it.
About lacking information if you cant gather why Tr is OP by reading all threads about it (even form other Trs that knows that if this continues and the nerf hammer hits Trs the same way it hit Gwfs it will leave the Tr class in the same pittyful state the Gwf is in atm) and by the experiance you get in entering PVP I cant say am the one that are clueless.
You can argue for the sake of argument or you can actually try to be constuctive in how you argue- that is trying to see the point of the argument and drive it forward for a mutal understanding.
What i oppose to is when people voice a consern about something when it comes to TR having to much dam, having to much cc, having to much survivability, having to fast movement, needing very little gear compared to other classes etc etc you enter the thread with demands for evidence or attack the way it was written etc etc.
That is called destructive argumentation and it is not aimed to resovle or move the argumentation forward but to attack the writer and not what was the intension or the reason why it was written.
In this state for anybody to even attempt to defend the Tr you must be extreamly Bias or lack any knowledge what so ever about the balance between the classes.
I see no need to go into the actual game mechanics of every power/feat or combination of those as they are delt with in several threads by others with more information about the Tr class, but i do see the need of Trs getting balanced toward other classes and in that I also see the need of pointing out how you try to defend this Tr OPness nonsence with a failed argumentative technical format.
He does not explain anything he focus on destroying others arguments in an attempt to defend the Tr class.
The basics dont need to be explained they are felt every time you enter a pvp match nowdays hence all the threads about TR being broken atm.
Or do you live with the delusion that Tr are balanced and all other players are wrong and need to l2p as those defending the class.
The nerf will come and frankly all those that shoose to try to defend it by saying all other are clueless are probably just going to make the nerf hammer hit so much harder.....
Best
That's a view I respect (but for me only a way to look at)
Jarecsteph, you might want to be a bit more complete with your editing technique. Whilst you've successfully obscured yourself and another, you've made no attempt to cover quite a few other names. I'm pretty sure it breaches RoC.
That aside, what you're describing as "some kind of proof" is tenuous at best.
Whilst giving you the benefit of doubt, firstly it could easily have been orchestrated, and secondly it's clearly only a part of the conversation and so has probably lost context along the way.
The other names were not involved in our discussion. I didn't even though it would have been a problem!
And for the rest I just lost 3 times in a row to the situation I’m writing in this thread.
So after the third one I wrote to the TR and you see the answer.
So now that I gave you some kind of proof it as to be discarding???
So what more can I say; or you are not honest or you don’t know very well the TR characters and I hope you are the last one.
It has been adequately explained in prior posts that chain-dazes that result in a total dazed duration of over 8~9 seconds, is almost entirely, exclusively the work of a Whisperknife, who has no ITC, and instead has VP, which thankfully has the added feature of being able to activate first attack from range, that doesn't consume stealth.
The "super-duper MI/Scoundrel that chain-lulz-dazes people to 9~10 seconds straight, and then simply uses ITCs for 5 seconds and gets another Skull Cracker ready so he can continue to daze 24/7 = permadaze instead of permastealth" these people are trying to have the community believe, simply does not exist.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I am actually leveling a TR now. Never played one before. I have 160 kills 10 deaths in PvP thus far. (and I have no idea wth Im doing lmao)
TR is majorly broken and anyone saying otherwise is in fact a TR.
Did I stutter?
When do we get to see how you fight a MI/Scoundrel in vid?
Now I feel really, really stupid for ALL THE ******* EFFORT it took for me to explain why MIs don't get to chain daze so easily in combat, and how many times do I have to tell you that long, chain dazes are the product of WKs and not MIS?
Sure, I can cook up a "theoretical" 10 second daze with a MI by simply throwing a CoS, continuing with SS, and then finishing with Dazing Strike. But you don't call that 'combat' -- it's called a 'show', because in actual combat wasting a SS just because it dazes from stealth is something no TR would ever do. COMBAT SIMPLY FRICKIN' DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY. I've already spoken of "movie-fantasy" -- in actual combat you don't use your precious few powers that way, especially since MIs have only ONE encounter that's for offense.
So no, I don't see how that's a proof of anything.
Give me PvP footage of you meeting the all-so-common MI/Scoundrel and where he stuns you for 10 seconds straight. You say its a common thing and every good TR can do it. I'm the one who invented the whole Scoundrel tactics and I know for sure I can't do that so easily with a MI/Sco.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Balance between classes is a pipe dream. It'll never happen. And frankly I gave up caring about PvP when Glyphs became a thing. What I'm interested in is exposing the biased and ignorant misinformation posted by the ranters and whiners without any regard to the impact of the nerfs they're calling for on the vast majority of players who don't PvP. It's pathetic and self-serving.
Almost all the problematic abilities are in one tree and could be addressed with minimal impact on PvE, but folk like you flail around trying to destroy the entire class. Because you don't understand what's actually happening or how those abilities work.
You are also apparently unable to comprehend the written word since I have frequently stated that one TR tree is overpowered due to it's combination of permastealth and high damage. And yet you claim I defend 'OPness'. No. I defend a class I enjoy playing from ignorant ranting when the ranter clearly has no clue.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Lets for the argument sake say that this is correct and this kind of super-duper is a freak of imagination.
Then lets ask of together with other abilitys/encounters/dailys/at wills the cc chain that can be put out by the Trs combined with the survivabilty mechanics is to long.
Lets ask us if this daze is to much to handle for others when its combined with lashing, exe or other deadly power.
Could it be so that if the daze last 6 or 10 seconds doesent really matter because in most cases your dead any way and that is the real issue at hand?
If so can we agree to the following and that something should be done about it..
Set up a 22k Tr against any other class at 15k and see if any can beat the Tr.
Set up a 15k TR against any 22k other classes and see how many times the Tr can walk away victorious.
Set up 22k Tr against any other 2 22k player and see how many times the Tr player comes out victorious.
Now set up an 15k TR against any other 22k class and see how many times the Tr comes out victorious.
Set up a 15k Tr against any other 2 22k class and see how many times the Tr come out victiorous.
Overall I think most get the picture of what is going to happend and why the Tr class is completely broken....
Who cares if it's 10 second daze or 6. Stop nitpicking to make an argument. You won't admit it but TR is OP and needs adjusting.
And it will happen, so maybe try and not spend all day defending TR at the forums.
Even 4 seconds is too much for PvP btw. Who the hell can control another player for 4 seconds but TR? Hardly a CW can manage that lol