Exactly why I suggested Experience gains be used as a resource for Artifact Gear. Even without the change to the drop rate, it's just not a fun or rewarding thing to do. It's a grind, and that's not going to entice people to keep playing.
Experience based is exactly how I would have designed it as well. Of course I don't know whether or not it could have be monitised in the same manner as the current system. The best I could think of was selling experience boosts.
As a slight aside, experience suggests it's uncommon for developers to take the seemingly obvious or simple route. Perhaps it's their creative nature but many seem to like to unnecessarily overcomplicate things.
Despite hating binding, I do not mind having the drops bound, I think it is a step towards fighting some of the farmers. However, I also believe another step towards fighting these parties engaging in botting or real world transactions would be to significantly increase the drop rate from enchants such as these so that it is more feasible for players to earn it themselves, rather than feel the need to engage in unscrupulous activities or buy it from bots.
I guess it's a matter of striking a balance between allowing people to earn things whilst encouraging people to pay if they want things faster. If the conversion rate for Neverwinter is similar to the other f2p games I've read about then it's still a small minority that spend. No amount of 'encouragement' will probably change that.
0
hexanna22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 204Bounty Hunter
edited November 2014
For those that are reading this that don't know, it takes 4,645,200 to refine a belt. At current drop rate, even standing in one spot farming, we are average 1K - 2K RP per 10 mins. It would take over a year to do this even farming mobs every waking min.
For those that are reading this that don't know, it takes 4,645,200 to refine a belt. At current drop rate, even standing in one spot farming, we are average 1K - 2K RP per 10 mins. It would take over a year to do this even farming mobs every waking min.
Use 5 G hoard and do the farm is not that bad
If you can make full enchant rank 8 is not that hard to make hoard
Collect and keep runestone in bank until 2x RP event
yeah patience is whay we need and don't bother to make it legendary if you are not hardcore player
Use 5 G hoard and do the farm is not that bad
If you can make full enchant rank 8 is not that hard to make hoard
Collect and keep runestone in bank until 2x RP event
yeah patience is whay we need and don't bother to make it legendary if you are not hardcore player
You're presuming that many can afford the time it takes to make a Greater Dragon's Hoard enchant, or have 5 utility slots. Many don't. When put in terms of the average casual player, the RP costs are staggering, and the reduction of drop rate paired with the BoA change is crippling and quite daunting.
Patience is a virtue but what Cryptic is asking with this change is far too much patience. Even a saint would be sorely tested.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
0
hexanna22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 204Bounty Hunter
Use 5 G hoard and do the farm is not that bad
If you can make full enchant rank 8 is not that hard to make hoard
Collect and keep runestone in bank until 2x RP event
yeah patience is whay we need and don't bother to make it legendary if you are not hardcore player
I run 12% and have always farmed, the drop rate is nerfed, that is what the problem is. If you don't believe us, go try yourself. I am getting 1 drop every 3 to 4 mins. Usually white pearls and peris.
You're presuming that many can afford the time it takes to make a Greater Dragon's Hoard enchant, or have 5 utility slots. Many don't. When put in terms of the average casual player, the RP costs are staggering, and the reduction of drop rate paired with the BoA change is crippling and quite daunting.
Patience is a virtue but what Cryptic is asking with this change is far too much patience. Even a saint would be sorely tested.
Well as long everyone face the same condition it's a fair race to gear up
if you are casual player don't hope to get the best equip in the game in easy way it's hardcore content to give different to hardcore player
this is how live work and at this rate cryptic will not make any change no matter how we cry
I run 12% and have always farmed, the drop rate is nerfed, that is what the problem is. If you don't believe us, go try yourself. I am getting 1 drop every 3 to 4 mins. Usually white pearls and peris.
Yeah i run with 12% too
but you miss the minor resonance,lesser resonance,aquamarine,flaw sapp,black opal
But thats how live work in this game, i just a casual player and i collect all of my runestone until 2xrp event
I think epic artifact is within my grasp
yeah we need to grind but for me i choose to do some quest that i like and do the grind in procces
Well as long everyone face the same condition it's a fair race to gear up
if you are casual player don't hope to get the best equip in the game in easy way it's hardcore content to give different to hardcore player
this is how live work and at this rate cryptic will not make any change no matter how we cry
However, these changes make even a fair upgrade difficult, to say nothing of "best equipment". Even raising your artifact equipment to the level of "decent upgrade rather than sidegrade" became about five times longer--and this is going to negatively affect the casuals.
Point is, even stepping out of the "Legendary Or Bust" mentality, this is still an unwise change.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Point is, even stepping out of the "Legendary Or Bust" mentality, this is still an unwise change.
That's precisely the point. To be fair, already the blue Artifact Weapons, Belts, Off-Hands and Cloaks offer a minor upgrade to the next best available item. And you only need 84 Peridots for that. Nerfed rate or not, you'll eventually get there.
But purple is already well out of reach and you are simply unable to get to Legendary whatsoever.
I have said this over and over again that I believe we weren't ment to have so many R9/R10 and Legendaries, but since we were able to it naturally leads to the point that people see others running around in BiS gear and realizing they will never even be close of achieving that. I personally would be discouraged.
Plus PVP is already not a strong facet of the game and such gear discrepancy will further contribute to making it highly unattractive to new players.
Perhaps in total stat value this is true. but for example, to match my smiting valiant belt with a r8 radiant a Dex belt would need to be somewhere around lv 50 i think to have the same amount of power, simply because you can't get that O/D enchant slot until orange.
Guild - The Imaginary Friends We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Perhaps in total stat value this is true. but for example, to match my smiting valiant belt with a r8 radiant a Dex belt would need to be somewhere around lv 50 i think to have the same amount of power, simply because you can't get that O/D enchant slot until orange.
Oh that's true, I didn't check that the first slot is the utility one. Same for the Cloak I guess. The belts come with ability scores though, say you get +2% damage out of it, that's as good as ~330 power.
However, these changes make even a fair upgrade difficult, to say nothing of "best equipment". Even raising your artifact equipment to the level of "decent upgrade rather than sidegrade" became about five times longer--and this is going to negatively affect the casuals.
Point is, even stepping out of the "Legendary Or Bust" mentality, this is still an unwise change.
At the risk of sounding overly hopeful a lot depends on future changes as well. This may just be step one of a larger plan. Certainly wouldn't be the first game to drastically increase the grind of an advancement system only to later tweak it down again.
0
obsiddiaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,025Arc User
edited November 2014
Pile on the Dragon's Hoard enchants. Maybe cover yourself and your
augment (does that even count?) and spend days rolling over goblins.
(That's what the ---s were doing.)
Did you really think anyone could steal the power of the god of thieves?
Pile on the Dragon's Hoard enchants. Maybe cover yourself and your
augment (does that even count?) and spend days rolling over goblins.
(That's what the ---s were doing.)
That was a very viable way to get personal RPs. However, with the recent nerf to the ICD, you have to dive deep into the sea of goblin blood to find your Peridot.
In the weeks before Module 4 and the introduction of Artifact gear many, many people pointed out what a problem the scarcity of refining points would be. The RP supply was already quite expensive (after they closed the loophole people were using to mass produce Rank 5's). The introduction of numerous Artifacts needing ~4.6 million RP each would cause the price of enchantments to skyrocket to untenable levels. Many people warned Cryptic of this. Their solution was the Dragon Hoard enchantments which, let's be honest, were tailor-made for exploitation by bots. That cause RP to be cheap and plentiful. Moreso than it should have been.
Now, not only have they made Dragon Hoard enchantments mostly useless to non-botting players, but they have also choked off the supply of Rank 4 enchantments by making Fey Blessing Enchantment drops bound. The total result is that refining points are going to have even less supply on the AH than there was before Module 4 with much, much, much more demand thanks to truckloads of Artifacts added to the mix.
With the amount of RP needed to get an artifact to orange it's a crazy idea. The prices for refining stones in AH are already enormous. As if our lives hadn't been hard enough whenever AD are concerned. Now we can't even have a decent speed for refining our items cause we can't buy squat.
If those stones should be bound, then INCREASE THE DROP RATE. It feels so decreased right now I couldn't believe it when I tested it today. The stones drop more rarely than those Dragon Coffers. I got two peridots for 10 coffers after killing things around the area for an hour.
I'm good with anything that will cut down on botting and "gold" selling. That said, the overall system is in desperate need of an overhaul, and this by itself just isn't it.
That is a very short sighted statement.
Personally, I could care less about "botting" as long as it doesn't affect my gameplay. What do I care if another character in the game is a "bot" or actual player..... until such point as it impacts my gameplay.
So, I don't want bots in PVP. Gold selling? I could care less, I don't buy, I don't sell, I just don't care. Why should you? I can see Cryptic caring as it might impact their bottom line, but me? I don't care.
What I do care about is if Cryptics measures to combat botting, starts to impact me. Making all the refining or results of refining Bound, now that DOES impact me and it while it might reduce some bots, it also reduced real players. Now that I do care about. If they make the game unwieldy, and just downright not fun to play then I won't play. I really don't want the server to be a ghost town. Do you? No bots, no real players? Is that the desired end state?
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
In regards to the drop rate, I did some testing myself. Ten minutes of solid farming with 3x lesser dragon's hoard enchants.
3 peridot, one aquamarine. Over ten minutes. In the process of bending Akro's ear even now as I post this.
I'm sorry, but making the drops from enchants BoA AND noticeably nerfing the drop rate of said drops? And, on top of this, adding more artifact gear? This cannot sit well with the playerbase. It would take an insane amount of time to get artifact equipment upgraded to the level of a respectable upgrade compared to existing equipment, to say nothing of legendary tier.
One or the other would have sufficed. To have done both in tandem was completely unnecessary.
In the weeks before Module 4 and the introduction of Artifact gear many, many people pointed out what a problem the scarcity of refining points would be. The RP supply was already quite expensive (after they closed the loophole people were using to mass produce Rank 5's). The introduction of numerous Artifacts needing ~4.6 million RP each would cause the price of enchantments to skyrocket to untenable levels. Many people warned Cryptic of this. Their solution was the Dragon Hoard enchantments which, let's be honest, were tailor-made for exploitation by bots. That cause RP to be cheap and plentiful. Moreso than it should have been.
Now, not only have they made Dragon Hoard enchantments mostly useless to non-botting players, but they have also choked off the supply of Rank 4 enchantments by making Fey Blessing Enchantment drops bound. The total result is that refining points are going to have even less supply on the AH than there was before Module 4 with much, much, much more demand thanks to truckloads of Artifacts added to the mix.
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Dear all,
As you know i fought against this change for this reason.
As said many times, MMO games are about progress. Certainly, that is what we should do here.
Now, let's see what happened.
The drops of everything (except artitifact cloaks), have been farmed so much that everything in this game (except maybe 4 items), is relatively worthless. If it is not worthless, it will be soon. Hence, our chances of making AD/Hr has been crippeled severely.
Because of this and because of (eventually) Linu's favor, it will be relatively easy to have 4 items of artifact gear come 2015. It has been also relatively easy to get BIS armor for a long time (since for most of this is a t2 set). Shirt, pants, also relatively easy. Rings are flexible, but since ELOL and nSOT are not that hard also relatively easy.
SO come 2015, active player bases will have almost all BIS gear, assuming you are active and make groups, etc..
In addition, if you have alts, all the reasonably old players will have sigils for artifact slots.
So let's assume we now have 7 things to refine. Not only do we have no GEAR to upgrade, we now would have 4 artifact gear, 3 artifacts, and (up to) 24 enchantments to refine.
Therefore very soon, the only thing anyone will need is RP!
Since this BtA change, the amount of RP in the market is finite, and will dry up soon, especially with a double RP weekend coming up.
Now with the dragonhoard and fey blessing nerf, it will be near impossible for anyone to legitmately rank up their enchantments!
Since you can't BUY RP on the AH the options are thus.
1) Buy the sapphires in the bazaar
2) Transform your AD into zen and buy blood rubies
3) Pay money to buy RP.
Now, i know we might think some people will sell RP on AH - but remember everyone needs RP now, and since that's all you need you can't do much with your AD anyway, so the limited unbound RP will be very expensive.
So eventually it will be "you want to advance your character? upgrade one item" It's pony up or quit time, and considering the cost of rubies and/or sapphires, that is a big pony.
jennyavarielMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 167
edited November 2014
It's not really a fail. People with a 'need' for legendary items will buy zen for blood rubies. Your game is 'free' to play, if you don't care to be BiS. If you want BiS, you *will* pay in either hundreds of hours, or hundreds of dollars.
If you're not happy with the system, try another game.
0
vinceent1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,264Arc User
edited November 2014
yes, not happy with a system which expect to pay ten times or much more than any other game with subscription. is it really surprising?
Neverwinter has got to be your very first f2p mmo. It surprised me from day ONE, how easily accessible cryptic made BiS items for the free to play faction. I've been playing f2p games for the past 10 years and getting the best items either costs lots of money or a massive amount of time. This is not a first person shooter, after all.
LOL
$600 per item or $4200 just for BiS items (doesnt include enchantments) or 2k+ hours to grind em.
Neverwinters on the high end for their items and gear prices whether you pay in cash or in time.
Not that this will make any bit of difference, but the sad thing is that all they accomplish here is the rich get richer (selling existing refining items for outrages prices) and the poor (those without legendary) will fall hopelessly behind, likely never even seeing a legendary item.
This was perhaps the worst idea yet, and they have had some BAD ideas as of late.
Pretty much I'm waiting it out at this point for a better game to come alone, and then I'm done sinking my time into Neverwinter. Tired of the "little guy" with not alot of real money to invest never seeing the end game content that by now 70% of the population probably already have.
This would have been a great idea back in the day, but not its too little too late.
I loath gold spammers and bots, but aren't the RP requirements to get your artifacts and artifact equipment to Gold quality already redonkulous? I'm not saying they should be dirt cheap to improve to maximum or anything. But slowing that process down further would really suck for players who do not use their game time farming enchants. I dunno, I'm just the type that likes to leave all door open. I like to know that I could get some stacks of refiners from the exchange if I wanted to (and have before) to speed things up a bit. I can understand the bind to account for farmed enchants, but I sure hope that doesn't spread to 'ALL' enchants. That would be a killer. The system is already in bad need of work as it is. Must take 15 million clicks to refine a belt to Gold man.
Comments
Experience based is exactly how I would have designed it as well. Of course I don't know whether or not it could have be monitised in the same manner as the current system. The best I could think of was selling experience boosts.
As a slight aside, experience suggests it's uncommon for developers to take the seemingly obvious or simple route. Perhaps it's their creative nature but many seem to like to unnecessarily overcomplicate things.
I guess it's a matter of striking a balance between allowing people to earn things whilst encouraging people to pay if they want things faster. If the conversion rate for Neverwinter is similar to the other f2p games I've read about then it's still a small minority that spend. No amount of 'encouragement' will probably change that.
If you can make full enchant rank 8 is not that hard to make hoard
Collect and keep runestone in bank until 2x RP event
yeah patience is whay we need and don't bother to make it legendary if you are not hardcore player
it is that bad because the dragon hoard enchants are nerfed hard. not in the patch notes, its a stealth nerf.
You're presuming that many can afford the time it takes to make a Greater Dragon's Hoard enchant, or have 5 utility slots. Many don't. When put in terms of the average casual player, the RP costs are staggering, and the reduction of drop rate paired with the BoA change is crippling and quite daunting.
Patience is a virtue but what Cryptic is asking with this change is far too much patience. Even a saint would be sorely tested.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I run 12% and have always farmed, the drop rate is nerfed, that is what the problem is. If you don't believe us, go try yourself. I am getting 1 drop every 3 to 4 mins. Usually white pearls and peris.
Well as long everyone face the same condition it's a fair race to gear up
if you are casual player don't hope to get the best equip in the game in easy way it's hardcore content to give different to hardcore player
this is how live work and at this rate cryptic will not make any change no matter how we cry
Yeah i run with 12% too
but you miss the minor resonance,lesser resonance,aquamarine,flaw sapp,black opal
But thats how live work in this game, i just a casual player and i collect all of my runestone until 2xrp event
I think epic artifact is within my grasp
yeah we need to grind but for me i choose to do some quest that i like and do the grind in procces
However, these changes make even a fair upgrade difficult, to say nothing of "best equipment". Even raising your artifact equipment to the level of "decent upgrade rather than sidegrade" became about five times longer--and this is going to negatively affect the casuals.
Point is, even stepping out of the "Legendary Or Bust" mentality, this is still an unwise change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
That's precisely the point. To be fair, already the blue Artifact Weapons, Belts, Off-Hands and Cloaks offer a minor upgrade to the next best available item. And you only need 84 Peridots for that. Nerfed rate or not, you'll eventually get there.
But purple is already well out of reach and you are simply unable to get to Legendary whatsoever.
I have said this over and over again that I believe we weren't ment to have so many R9/R10 and Legendaries, but since we were able to it naturally leads to the point that people see others running around in BiS gear and realizing they will never even be close of achieving that. I personally would be discouraged.
Plus PVP is already not a strong facet of the game and such gear discrepancy will further contribute to making it highly unattractive to new players.
We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
Oh that's true, I didn't check that the first slot is the utility one. Same for the Cloak I guess. The belts come with ability scores though, say you get +2% damage out of it, that's as good as ~330 power.
At the risk of sounding overly hopeful a lot depends on future changes as well. This may just be step one of a larger plan. Certainly wouldn't be the first game to drastically increase the grind of an advancement system only to later tweak it down again.
augment (does that even count?) and spend days rolling over goblins.
(That's what the ---s were doing.)
That was a very viable way to get personal RPs. However, with the recent nerf to the ICD, you have to dive deep into the sea of goblin blood to find your Peridot.
Now, not only have they made Dragon Hoard enchantments mostly useless to non-botting players, but they have also choked off the supply of Rank 4 enchantments by making Fey Blessing Enchantment drops bound. The total result is that refining points are going to have even less supply on the AH than there was before Module 4 with much, much, much more demand thanks to truckloads of Artifacts added to the mix.
This is going to be an economic disaster.
If those stones should be bound, then INCREASE THE DROP RATE. It feels so decreased right now I couldn't believe it when I tested it today. The stones drop more rarely than those Dragon Coffers. I got two peridots for 10 coffers after killing things around the area for an hour.
That is a very short sighted statement.
Personally, I could care less about "botting" as long as it doesn't affect my gameplay. What do I care if another character in the game is a "bot" or actual player..... until such point as it impacts my gameplay.
So, I don't want bots in PVP. Gold selling? I could care less, I don't buy, I don't sell, I just don't care. Why should you? I can see Cryptic caring as it might impact their bottom line, but me? I don't care.
What I do care about is if Cryptics measures to combat botting, starts to impact me. Making all the refining or results of refining Bound, now that DOES impact me and it while it might reduce some bots, it also reduced real players. Now that I do care about. If they make the game unwieldy, and just downright not fun to play then I won't play. I really don't want the server to be a ghost town. Do you? No bots, no real players? Is that the desired end state?
+1/10 Char
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Correct, the nightmare is coming after christmas.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
As you know i fought against this change for this reason.
As said many times, MMO games are about progress. Certainly, that is what we should do here.
Now, let's see what happened.
The drops of everything (except artitifact cloaks), have been farmed so much that everything in this game (except maybe 4 items), is relatively worthless. If it is not worthless, it will be soon. Hence, our chances of making AD/Hr has been crippeled severely.
Because of this and because of (eventually) Linu's favor, it will be relatively easy to have 4 items of artifact gear come 2015. It has been also relatively easy to get BIS armor for a long time (since for most of this is a t2 set). Shirt, pants, also relatively easy. Rings are flexible, but since ELOL and nSOT are not that hard also relatively easy.
SO come 2015, active player bases will have almost all BIS gear, assuming you are active and make groups, etc..
In addition, if you have alts, all the reasonably old players will have sigils for artifact slots.
So let's assume we now have 7 things to refine. Not only do we have no GEAR to upgrade, we now would have 4 artifact gear, 3 artifacts, and (up to) 24 enchantments to refine.
Therefore very soon, the only thing anyone will need is RP!
Since this BtA change, the amount of RP in the market is finite, and will dry up soon, especially with a double RP weekend coming up.
Now with the dragonhoard and fey blessing nerf, it will be near impossible for anyone to legitmately rank up their enchantments!
Since you can't BUY RP on the AH the options are thus.
1) Buy the sapphires in the bazaar
2) Transform your AD into zen and buy blood rubies
3) Pay money to buy RP.
Now, i know we might think some people will sell RP on AH - but remember everyone needs RP now, and since that's all you need you can't do much with your AD anyway, so the limited unbound RP will be very expensive.
So eventually it will be "you want to advance your character? upgrade one item" It's pony up or quit time, and considering the cost of rubies and/or sapphires, that is a big pony.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
If you're not happy with the system, try another game.
LOL
$600 per item or $4200 just for BiS items (doesnt include enchantments) or 2k+ hours to grind em.
Neverwinters on the high end for their items and gear prices whether you pay in cash or in time.
This was perhaps the worst idea yet, and they have had some BAD ideas as of late.
Pretty much I'm waiting it out at this point for a better game to come alone, and then I'm done sinking my time into Neverwinter. Tired of the "little guy" with not alot of real money to invest never seeing the end game content that by now 70% of the population probably already have.
This would have been a great idea back in the day, but not its too little too late.