But you DO realise that you need a very different play-style and possibly slot different powers to do well in PvP?
Maybe you just need more practice in PvP? It takes a lot more than just doing Dailies to get good at it.
Well, I have a profound set armor+bracers which I set with helm+boots of black ice for action points bonus after I got them. And I do PvP every day for months. Yes, I do move a lot, but stamina is not eternal, either. And I never noticed my moving in shadow slip stopping CWs from controlling me. GWFs are able to strike from such a distance it's ridiculous and you're only left with your mouth open wondering how the heck.
I have 30% damage resistance and more than 27% armor penetration with my rank 7-8 enchantments, but for now it only helps a great deal in PvE. In PvP none of it seems to be working as expected - only that I can live a few seconds longer while stunned-smacked by fighters or rogues.
Lets balance a game based around people that can't play the game to its full potential. Doesn't sound at all like an issue.
You never, ever, balance a game around pugs, low skilled players in general, because they have no idea how to fully utilize every last scrap of power they can get in a game. Some people that play the game will use powers that just aren't effective in a certain mode/match up, in terms of MMOs they will use gear that doesn't give them the "correct" stats that they need, so on so forth. Most players will not be that great, they're average players and not part of the "1%" for a reason, but that doesn't mean you then go balance a game around the most average of players since it would be a complete mess.
Not to mention the fact that pugs are a group of random players that may not even help each other out, and will rarely use teamwork, especially at the level of a competitive pre-made team, and are likely to not even be in the same skill level as each other in the first place.
A player at the top might not always be right, and they might try to take advantage of a situation and help themselves, but so will the average player. This issue doesn't just vanish if you move from one end of the scale to the other.
So, do tell us why you think it is a good idea to value the opinion of people that play anyway from 1-2 hours a week, to an hour a day, compared to say people that literally sit on the game all day and play several hours of matches every single day. A person who doesn't fully know how to play their own class compared to someone that knows the ins and outs of their own class and probably the ins and outs of several other classes as well. Back up your claims.
the norm for rogue damage used to be about the amount needed to kill the average squishy. but due to top-end rogues multiplying damage left and right, that went far and beyond what a squishy could handle. squishies made a bunch of threads asking for nerfs and their wish was granted. most rogues became unable to deal enough damage to a squishy to kill them and couldn't even keep up with the amount of dodges they had. pretty much forced perma-stealth onto everyone
^that's what happens when you balance things for the top-end of the spectrum. or it might just be a result of trying to grant the squishiest class in the game an easier time of surviving the class that's supposed to be the best at killing a lone squishy.
regardless, impact shot is the very reason you can't just listen to the top-end of pvp. the devs didn't take into account that a rogue's damage may go up with gear, but a squishy is not necessarily gonna have better survivability with more gear.
the norm for rogue damage used to be about the amount needed to kill the average squishy. but due to top-end rogues multiplying damage left and right, that went far and beyond what a squishy could handle. squishies made a bunch of threads asking for nerfs and their wish was granted. most rogues became unable to deal enough damage to a squishy to kill them and couldn't even keep up with the amount of dodges they had. pretty much forced perma-stealth onto everyone
^that's what happens when you balance things for the top-end of the spectrum. or it might just be a result of trying to grant the squishiest class in the game an easier time of surviving the class that's supposed to be the best at killing a lone squishy.
No, that's what happens when you listen to the average player complaining about something that they do not understand and gives no real feedback other than "this is OP". Also, unless you can find a quote, made by a person in the top level of PvP that says "Make this power have X stats" or "Reduce the power of X by Y", then they did not change the power, the devs/balance team are the ones that made the changes, not the player.
You will also always be forced into a select few builds every single time you want to be competitive. This fact will simply never change, people min/max for a reason, there is always a select few builds that is superior to everything else. Period.
You should also try reading that last paragraph, it'll be interesting to see a single person answer.
regardless, impact shot is the very reason you can't just listen to the top-end of pvp. the devs didn't take into account that a rogue's damage may go up with gear, but a squishy is not necessarily gonna have better survivability with more gear.
Pick one or the other, you can't have both. You either are good at attacking, good at defending, or average at both. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Furthermore, survival does go up with more gear, better deflection, more HP, faster movement speed, etc.
HRs just slightly less powerful than before. With red glyphs, still very very strong
Intimidation GWFs still quite powerful
Reflect turtles
Pew-Pew lasers from range
And the new kings, TRs, running rampant, killing anything in seconds while you barely see them
Must be how the game is supposed to be. Will wait a bit more to see if devs wake up and fix this mess. If this keeps being the trend for PvP, then bye bye.
I don't like cheesefest.
Just on a side note, to add insult to injury:
i play GWF DPS PvP build. Instigator actually. Takes some skill i guess. FLS still needs aim, RS and IBS require timing expecially when i land them on un-cced targets.
i only pug, and have a 4:1/ 3:1 K/D ratio
never quit a match, made it to page 4. Usually up against ppl on legendary gear and 18k+ GS, doing my job if the match is balanced. And beating some of these guys by outplaying them.
2 triple kills to dominion champion always playng sub-optimal DPS builds in PvP.
Playing with regular gear, rank 7s, normal vorpal (greater soon) and Gbarkshield. Every piece of armor and gear i got through PvP and IWD stuff (BI belt, PBI set, PvP ring set, dominator's cloack).
I'm not the best for sure, but today a 12k soulbinder warlock, angered with me during a match, told me....
........
.....
...
you have no skills, only gear.
Gear.
Rank 7s and normal weapon enchant.
As i said, i'm a regular player, but still, with all i see in PvP, not even recognizing i'm playing a normal build more or less, a bit successfully...
...
OP cheese on one side. Angry poverty players on the other (not like i'm rich...)
Sigh... (°^°)
No, that's what happens when you listen to the average player complaining about something that they do not understand and gives no real feedback other than "this is OP". Also, unless you can find a quote, made by a person in the top level of PvP that says "Make this power have X stats" or "Reduce the power of X by Y", then they did not change the power, the devs/balance team are the ones that made the changes, not the player.
kinda impossible to tell gs from a character handle on the forums.
also devs listen to feedback of the players. majority of all complaints mentioned ridiculous damage on impact shot and/or unable to dodge any of the impact shots. irony is that i have dodged consecutive impacts and even the 1st from stealth as well as had the same done to my impacts. once dodged i was kinda screwed since i had long cooldowns and best i could do was stall as i failed my 1:1 kill.
you might think differently, but these devs are not perfect at balancing or filtering out the meaningful info.
You will also always be forced into a select few builds every single time you want to be competitive. This fact will simply never change, people min/max for a reason, there is always a select few builds that is superior to everything else. Period.
that was on a whole different tier of min-max or being forced into a build. it literally killed the class but the stealth mechanic was still useful enough to build around. the fact that a build could be made does not change the fact that the class as a whole was guttered. we were dependent on 2 powerful encounters to even kill someone.
Pick one or the other, you can't have both. You either are good at attacking, good at defending, or average at both. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Furthermore, survival does go up with more gear, better deflection, more HP, faster movement speed, etc.
no idea what you are going on about with the hybrid remark
more hp is a nice argument but that's all a wizard can get outside of slotting their shield. but more hp is equal to the other person getting more hp as well. overall, nothing really changed.
nobody can get significant amounts of movement from the stat and wizards lack a decent deflect rate. rogues are generally meant to burst people down which counters regen.
I am playing Neverwinter since it release and i consider myself a pvp player mostly because inspend 80% of my online time in domination matches. I only have 1 char and plyed 1 class alone from the beggining. Sure i have tried some other classes but only to study their weaknes and close look at theyr skills.
I curently have 17k CW and never cried about nything...innever mind a good fight,and the closer the score is,the better thegame. Yeah i do tend to get pissed off by immortal gwfs who we were dpsing 3 guys and he was caping points with no regard of us. Like wenwere some mosquitos flying round. Or get hituntil death by thin air and not seen any rogue for the entire game. Also please see me as an average guy cause i dont spend a lot of time ingame due to RL and i dont due dungeon farming or crazy 20hours playing just to get something.
But eventualy the actual balance of the pvp is how u play ur game. Just rememberits teamplY not a solo fight and what your doing its for theteam not for ur personal score...if u get this it means u rely are a pvp player. Also keep in mind that PVP its a choice and not something "U have to to" and if u get in and die a lot in a few seconds,pvp its not for u. Also if u stand outside asolo instance asking for group in zone chat: PVP IS NOT FOR U!!!
Yeasterday i solo queued as usual. Got 19k-19k-20k-20k-23k enemy team vs my team of 8k (!)-11k-15k-16k and my 17k.
And the guys were not premade, they went solo queue.
And it happens most of the time. All big guns in 1 team, huge gear difference.
So even from a group fight point of view, it's not reliable.
Talking about single classes, and TR since this is their topic, could some TRs clarify how to counter right now:
- Movement: met several TRs who could move almost as fast as my GWF while sprinting. I use bravery. And that was their normal movement speed
- Their shadow of demose destroy things. With red glyphs, even faster. And is what, AoE? Explain please.
- They are not squishy anymore. Not that much at least to justify the following:
- still they stay in stealth 90% of the time. You barely see them popping out of stealth 1 second, rolling away into stealth the second after. Add to movement speed allowing them to never get caught anymore while in stealth and the fact they now deal loads of damage.
How does this stuff works? I'm not a TR.
The result is just that they are immune to damage or out of sight 90% of the time, and also now dealing high DPS.
Also, yesterday got hit by a 46k LB. Was fighting another TR, the second TR went from behind and pretty much 1-shotted my GWF (42k HP, 22% tenacity, 46-47% DR with feats, 36% deflect, PBI set).
How does whis work cause right now it's unplayable. They can't be seen and evade easily most of the damage, and at the same time they can kill stuff quite fast.
Talking about single classes, and TR since this is their topic, could some TRs clarify how to counter right now:
- Movement: met several TRs who could move almost as fast as my GWF while sprinting. I use bravery. And that was their normal movement speed
- Their shadow of demose destroy things. With red glyphs, even faster. And is what, AoE? Explain please.
- They are not squishy anymore. Not that much at least to justify the following:
- still they stay in stealth 90% of the time. You barely see them popping out of stealth 1 second, rolling away into stealth the second after. Add to movement speed allowing them to never get caught anymore while in stealth and the fact they now deal loads of damage.
How does this stuff works? I'm not a TR.
The result is just that they are immune to damage or out of sight 90% of the time, and also now dealing high DPS.
Also, yesterday got hit by a 46k LB. Was fighting another TR, the second TR went from behind and pretty much 1-shotted my GWF (42k HP, 22% tenacity, 46-47% DR with feats, 36% deflect, PBI set).
How does whis work cause right now it's unplayable. They can't be seen and evade easily most of the damage, and at the same time they can kill stuff quite fast.
15% run speed from class feature
25% run speed from scoundrel capstone
30% run speed during stealth from class feature
executioner's shadow of demise basically procs on anyone hit while the rogue is in stealth. within 6 seconds, 50% of the damage dealt during that time-frame should be dealt and consume shadow of demise. someone said it was bugged in a new way so probably need 1 of them for specifics on their feat.
the ones with the easiest time with staying in stealth are saboteurs as they have plenty of stealth refill feats and can even use an encounter every 15 seconds without losing stealth. the rest of the feat paths have to use gloaming cut and spend 10 points in the sab tree to even attempt to be a perma.
we are technically just as squishy. i simply gained 10.5% deflect from dex and a scoundrel feat (10% more if i am close to dying). although the 5% extra life-steal might be helping but not sure.
defense practically doesn't exist to executioner's. they have a feat that gives 25% armor pen which allows them to 1-shot anyone if they don't get a deflect or enough resist from abilities. if you know a rogue is coming in stealth, the best thing to do is an instant cast aoe cc to prevent the incoming 1-shot.
It's a group game but when a TR can troll the enemy base vs any class and force you to go 2v1 3v1 cause
- he can stay in stealth 90% of the time going on-off point in rivenscar escaping death anytime
- he can deal loads of damage now
- he can perma-daze you
- he can roll longer now
- he can move faster than any other class and can't keep up not even with GWF sprint
TRs are supposed to be "squishy", yet they are out of reach 90% of the time or immune and now they can deal damage.
You either have survivability or damage. Not both.
Stealth must get off when you get hit, the more damage you take, the longer it takes for you to go back into stealth.
That's blanaced
Not current perma stealth, perma daze, DPS OP shlt.
Also: stun being deflected is not fixed cause when i stun a TR they still get free in no time. Fix this other idiocy, would you devs, or you only care about blessing one class each module with godly powers?
It's a group game but when a TR can troll the enemy base vs any class and force you to go 2v1 3v1 cause
- he can stay in stealth 90% of the time going on-off point in rivenscar escaping death anytime
- he can deal loads of damage now
- he can perma-daze you
- he can roll longer now
- he can move faster than any other class and can't keep up not even with GWF sprint
TRs are supposed to be "squishy", yet they are out of reach 90% of the time or immune and now they can deal damage.
You either have survivability or damage. Not both.
Stealth must get off when you get hit, the more damage you take, the longer it takes for you to go back into stealth.
That's blanaced
Not current perma stealth, perma daze, DPS OP shlt.
Also: stun being deflected is not fixed cause when i stun a TR they still get free in no time. Fix this other idiocy, would you devs, or you only care about blessing one class each module with godly powers?
Thanks.
I got to agree. I have no idea how did devs succeeded to keep perma stealth when they stated themselves that they want to change that with the TR revamp. I don't even... Also, I agree that DPS classes should not be both tanky AND deal insane dps. Whereas the actual tanks deal rather low damage and have worse survivability.
I don't perma stealth, I find it terribly boring, but I think the devs said they wanted to keep perma stealth an option as long as it didn't do much damage, it's supposed to be a more defensive build.
Some people are taking the best things of different paths and mixing it together, perma stealth is for sabs, "perma" daze is from scoundrel, and SoD is from Exe, no rogue can have those 3 at the same time.
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onegaki101Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 327Arc User
It's a group game but when a TR can troll the enemy base vs any class and force you to go 2v1 3v1 cause
- he can stay in stealth 90% of the time going on-off point in rivenscar escaping death anytime
- he can deal loads of damage now
- he can perma-daze you
- he can roll longer now
- he can move faster than any other class and can't keep up not even with GWF sprint
TRs are supposed to be "squishy", yet they are out of reach 90% of the time or immune and now they can deal damage.
You either have survivability or damage. Not both.
Stealth must get off when you get hit, the more damage you take, the longer it takes for you to go back into stealth.
That's blanaced
Not current perma stealth, perma daze, DPS OP shlt.
Also: stun being deflected is not fixed cause when i stun a TR they still get free in no time. Fix this other idiocy, would you devs, or you only care about blessing one class each module with godly powers?
Thanks.
Just FYI you are not fighing an SoD TR. SoD is broken right now as it is not doing what it suppose to do and does abysmal dmg. TRs right now will have to use Lashing Blade from stealth for it to do decent damage.
You were probably fighting a Sab TR. They are the ones that can remain in stealth and do good damage as far as I can tell.
Well, as I said in another thread I created, current amount of dodges is a real problem. I feel like a HR but my dodges have much longer distance and immunity frame.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
TRs are supposed to be "squishy", yet they are out of reach 90% of the time or immune and now they can deal damage.
You either have survivability or damage. Not both.
Stealth must get off when you get hit, the more damage you take, the longer it takes for you to go back into stealth.
That's blanaced
Not current perma stealth, perma daze, DPS OP shlt.
In a game with so much solo content all classes will be built with both survivability and damage. This will not change. The TR is a melee striker class and cannot function without some survivability. They are not intended to be 'squishy', just to have different methods of avoiding damage other than DR.
Stealth already 'goes off' when taking damage and already takes longer to come back when taking damage. In fact stealth has more limitations than any other TAB ability. And the only attack that doesn't drain stealth now is Gloaming Cut. It was never intended for perma stealth to be eliminated in this rework, just made more difficult/limite. TBH I think that failed as with Sab it's easier than ever to perma. The trouble is that nerfing stealth any further will make it completely unusable for other paths - Scoundrel already spends hardly any time in stealth.
In a game with so much solo content all classes will be built with both survivability and damage. This will not change. The TR is a melee striker class and cannot function without some survivability. They are not intended to be 'squishy', just to have different methods of avoiding damage other than DR.
Stealth already 'goes off' when taking damage and already takes longer to come back when taking damage. In fact stealth has more limitations than any other TAB ability. And the only attack that doesn't drain stealth now is Gloaming Cut. It was never intended for perma stealth to be eliminated in this rework, just made more difficult/limite. TBH I think that failed as with Sab it's easier than ever to perma. The trouble is that nerfing stealth any further will make it completely unusable for other paths - Scoundrel already spends hardly any time in stealth.
When GWF was nerfed the motto was "damage OR survivability".
Now it's "you need both btw...".
If i go DPS on my GWF (as it is) i go down fast 2v1.
Now, as i said, it's not just stealth, but stealth combined with all the tools.
It's pretty easy:
stealth requires the TR to get damage to drain.
But when a TR attacks he's usually in some immunity.
Or he just dazed you. He strikes. while you can't hit him.
Then rolls away for a long distance, in immunity, into stealth.
Then rolls again, immune.
Then can move way faster than any other class.
And then can come back.
He is in stealth.
Or immune.
Or when your turn comes, he's rolling away a ton, immune to CC and damage, back into stealth and out of range in no time.
Plus, to make it better, it's latency friendly cause all he must do is time his tools on his side with no lag, while you must take lag into account to land a CC perhaps in a fraction of millisecond between rolls. Sprint is not enough to keep up with their movement speed during stealth. Now they can also dodge longer, and 4 times. So let's say you guess where they are and sprint to them, they roll away a long distance. And you don'0t have enough sprint to keep up with 4 long rolls+ crazy base movement speed. So now catching them in stealth is out of question for a GWF. They should then fight on node, but they can get on-off node at will and engage/ disengage whenever they want. So stealth doesn't really go down. Plus, idk why, stuns seem to do shlt often. It's not fixed and deflection is still decreasing stuns duration.
Put all together, you have what people say: TRs are out of reach most of the time if not all the time.
But now they also can efficiently DPS you down while being out of reach.
I tell you what would be balanced. You are in stealth as much as you want. When you enter combat and attack, your stealth goes away so after dealing damage you must survive through 4 long dodges, base movement speed, dazes and deflect+ base build HPs.
More than enough to deal with melees and also 4 long dodges + movement speed is enough to get away from CW range, you need to (god forbid) actually time your dodges and daze (not perma-daze, but one daze to mix with rolls and movement) to avoid getting caught.
The enemy can see you and can also time his attacks to, instead, catch you.
What is missed in current and past TRs is the part when the TR is vulnerable and the enemy can counterattack.
I tell you what would be balanced. You are in stealth as much as you want. When you enter combat and attack, your stealth goes away so after dealing damage you must survive through 4 long dodges, base movement speed, dazes and deflect+ base build HPs.
Sure and I guess we can also have unstopable do the same, when you enter combat and attack it is gone. Sounds perfectly fair, eh? Go ahead and do that with the rest of the tab's too, have them stop working when you actually try to use them -- brilliant.
Now I do not like perma stealth and none of my TR play in that fashion and I advocated against it in the feedback and preview threads.
I just saw a 14k CW do 4 times more damage than a 16k GWF in SoT (4m against 1m), does that mean they need to be tuned down too?
According to the logic in this topic it should.
Patch notes are one thing and reality, be it only virtual reality is another. Everyone, who is a bit home in IT knows, that bugs can be introduced to the program code with or without intention.
Shadow of Demise isn't fixed 100%. I was doing my everyday PVP session and as always i was playing with PUGs. Didn't make a screen shot, but i can say, i saw SoD proc on all 4 of us at the same time, still. TR is now so OP that everybody in our guild has quit PVP. The perma was always a disgusting, unfair and unethical thing to play and for myself i judged everbody, if he played a perma or not, cause it shows many things about ones personality, but this is science...
Now perma is not gone. 99% they still can be in stealth. Things even got worse, that +300-350 % dmg increase they got is unbelievable disgusting towards all other classes.
Some TR players were bashing today on one of my guild mates, who wrote here on the forum abut his feelings, that the HR got nerfed. I have run with the person to some Dragons and i can testify, yes the HR archery path has undergone some nerf.
Now some of you will come, that it isn't in the patch notes. LOL, do you think everything is there, cmon don't be kids.
In pvp, my build and aimed shot is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. I can't get anybody down with it anymore, except a few squishy CWs, but a PVP speced CW can withstand it too. Now GF has those Glyphs and i am dead, before him, he only has to stay in one spot and do nothing.
I used this build before the so called TR SoD fix and was very competitive with it, so my guess is, they must have changed things.
But i left the worst part until the end, clone wars. Many new recruits in my guild are new or newly returned players, who make, now guess what, yes a TR. Many of them are immature teens, who enjoy the fact, that they can troll the game, especially PVP, even more, than in the perma era. Many of my guildies, old and new now delete their character or buy a slot (if they use the old char as AD slave) to roll a TR. In the instance i was in, in Trade of Blades i saw only 2 non TR classes, one being me and believe me it was full.
I don't know, shall we all make a TR now to enjoy the game or will this be only a 1 class game in the future?
I am happy for the DC changes, but if Mod 5 is all about this, then bring back the old days, even the 100% perma stuff was better, i mean how long will PVP survive, if a premade or PUG team with a 20k+ GS consists 2-3 TR and even 1 can 1-2 shot 4 players at once?!
Premade vs PUGs was always an issue not solved, i know why , but it was and still is a huge problem, now to top the cake we got the insane TRs.
I can only say my guild is full to the top with people and NOBODY PVPs anymore.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
It's simultaneously funny and sad for me to read all these things from each class that they got either nerfed or intimidated by new TRs - and it's all true, I see that in PvP all the time.
But you know what, there is no class (except for DCs - not sure if they got much better or just a bit to better to merely last a sec or two longer while killed) - no class weaker in PvP than SWs. It's amazing how we get a new paragon path and yet there are so few SWs left in PvP because it's impossible to live longer than half a minute since the beginning of a match. Being more than okay in PvE with high Life Steal and ArPen survivability, I wonder every day why I can't even hit anyone properly in PvP? Funny enough, if there's someone I can kill these days in PvP it's another unfortunate SW.
I just saw a 14k CW do 4 times more damage than a 16k GWF in SoT (4m against 1m), does that mean they need to be tuned down too?
According to the logic in this topic it should.
PVE /= PVP
Also, high dps isn't the only problem with TRs in PVP.
Sure and I guess we can also have unstopable do the same, when you enter combat and attack it is gone. Sounds perfectly fair, eh? Go ahead and do that with the rest of the tab's too, have them stop working when you actually try to use them -- brilliant.
Now I do not like perma stealth and none of my TR play in that fashion and I advocated against it in the feedback and preview threads.
What you just wrote is nonsense and i'll explain you why.
Unstoppable activates AFTER taking damage. So the moment the GWF is vulnerable is the beginning of the fight. Can try to avoid CC with sprint but the GWF takes damage. If you time your attacks right, you can burst DPS on a GWF cause he is a meat shield with no immunities.
AFTER THAT he goes unstoppable 4-8 seconds. Which is not permanent but quite short.
AFTER THAT he's vulnerable again.
Also, on a side note, after unstoppable nerf you can DPS non-sentinel GWFs even during unstoppable.
If you are a good player you can burst the GWF, kite his unstoppable and burst again. Which is exactly what i'm saying: the GWF have windows of vulnerability.
TRs start in stealth, so you can't do shlt.
Then DPS you.
Go immune ITC or something else.
Roll away for a long dinstace (immune).
Go stealth. Roll long dinstance (immune) to make you lose track of him.
Use insane base movement speed and dodges= most mobility in the whole game to avoid being found, going off node if needed. Then coming back for more.
There's no true window of vulnerability cause the TR is always out of sight, or immune, or out of reach. Or, if a window can be found, it's so small that lag alone can make you miss it.
If by chance you catch the TR and make SF proc, the guy can usually double roll away into stealth and disappear while any other class simply try to recover, fight and either win or die, fighting to the end.
Even perma-runner GWFs can still be DPSed down while running away if at low health. TRs can't cause they are already in stealth, or double rolling into stealth (immunity).
Add to this that stuns can be deflected, so even if you catch the TR with FLS, they often freeze for less than a second and get free so fast you can't even land 1 attack. And i have FLS feated for longer stun, so you get the idea.
Roll a GWF, try to play it then say me if you prefer TR tools for survivability or Unstoppable, which one is superior.
Silly discussion. TR is over9000 times safer to play then GWF. GWF relies on regen and killing his opponent before dying himself. TR can engage and disengage at will. Thus, they either kill their target or run away. Only huge mistakes, network troubles or accidental prone-locks can make you die as a TR.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Silly discussion. TR is over9000 times safer to play then GWF. GWF relies on regen and killing his opponent before dying himself. TR can engage and disengage at will. Thus, they either kill their target or run away. Only huge mistakes, network troubles or accidental prone-locks can make you die as a TR.
Comments
Well, I have a profound set armor+bracers which I set with helm+boots of black ice for action points bonus after I got them. And I do PvP every day for months. Yes, I do move a lot, but stamina is not eternal, either. And I never noticed my moving in shadow slip stopping CWs from controlling me. GWFs are able to strike from such a distance it's ridiculous and you're only left with your mouth open wondering how the heck.
I have 30% damage resistance and more than 27% armor penetration with my rank 7-8 enchantments, but for now it only helps a great deal in PvE. In PvP none of it seems to be working as expected - only that I can live a few seconds longer while stunned-smacked by fighters or rogues.
the norm for rogue damage used to be about the amount needed to kill the average squishy. but due to top-end rogues multiplying damage left and right, that went far and beyond what a squishy could handle. squishies made a bunch of threads asking for nerfs and their wish was granted. most rogues became unable to deal enough damage to a squishy to kill them and couldn't even keep up with the amount of dodges they had. pretty much forced perma-stealth onto everyone
^that's what happens when you balance things for the top-end of the spectrum. or it might just be a result of trying to grant the squishiest class in the game an easier time of surviving the class that's supposed to be the best at killing a lone squishy.
regardless, impact shot is the very reason you can't just listen to the top-end of pvp. the devs didn't take into account that a rogue's damage may go up with gear, but a squishy is not necessarily gonna have better survivability with more gear.
No, that's what happens when you listen to the average player complaining about something that they do not understand and gives no real feedback other than "this is OP". Also, unless you can find a quote, made by a person in the top level of PvP that says "Make this power have X stats" or "Reduce the power of X by Y", then they did not change the power, the devs/balance team are the ones that made the changes, not the player.
You will also always be forced into a select few builds every single time you want to be competitive. This fact will simply never change, people min/max for a reason, there is always a select few builds that is superior to everything else. Period.
You should also try reading that last paragraph, it'll be interesting to see a single person answer.
Pick one or the other, you can't have both. You either are good at attacking, good at defending, or average at both. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Furthermore, survival does go up with more gear, better deflection, more HP, faster movement speed, etc.
HRs just slightly less powerful than before. With red glyphs, still very very strong
Intimidation GWFs still quite powerful
Reflect turtles
Pew-Pew lasers from range
And the new kings, TRs, running rampant, killing anything in seconds while you barely see them
Must be how the game is supposed to be. Will wait a bit more to see if devs wake up and fix this mess. If this keeps being the trend for PvP, then bye bye.
I don't like cheesefest.
Just on a side note, to add insult to injury:
i play GWF DPS PvP build. Instigator actually. Takes some skill i guess. FLS still needs aim, RS and IBS require timing expecially when i land them on un-cced targets.
i only pug, and have a 4:1/ 3:1 K/D ratio
never quit a match, made it to page 4. Usually up against ppl on legendary gear and 18k+ GS, doing my job if the match is balanced. And beating some of these guys by outplaying them.
2 triple kills to dominion champion always playng sub-optimal DPS builds in PvP.
Playing with regular gear, rank 7s, normal vorpal (greater soon) and Gbarkshield. Every piece of armor and gear i got through PvP and IWD stuff (BI belt, PBI set, PvP ring set, dominator's cloack).
I'm not the best for sure, but today a 12k soulbinder warlock, angered with me during a match, told me....
........
.....
...
you have no skills, only gear.
Gear.
Rank 7s and normal weapon enchant.
As i said, i'm a regular player, but still, with all i see in PvP, not even recognizing i'm playing a normal build more or less, a bit successfully...
...
OP cheese on one side. Angry poverty players on the other (not like i'm rich...)
Sigh... (°^°)
also devs listen to feedback of the players. majority of all complaints mentioned ridiculous damage on impact shot and/or unable to dodge any of the impact shots. irony is that i have dodged consecutive impacts and even the 1st from stealth as well as had the same done to my impacts. once dodged i was kinda screwed since i had long cooldowns and best i could do was stall as i failed my 1:1 kill.
you might think differently, but these devs are not perfect at balancing or filtering out the meaningful info.
that was on a whole different tier of min-max or being forced into a build. it literally killed the class but the stealth mechanic was still useful enough to build around. the fact that a build could be made does not change the fact that the class as a whole was guttered. we were dependent on 2 powerful encounters to even kill someone.
i gave my answer but you don't accept it.
no idea what you are going on about with the hybrid remark
more hp is a nice argument but that's all a wizard can get outside of slotting their shield. but more hp is equal to the other person getting more hp as well. overall, nothing really changed.
nobody can get significant amounts of movement from the stat and wizards lack a decent deflect rate. rogues are generally meant to burst people down which counters regen.
I curently have 17k CW and never cried about nything...innever mind a good fight,and the closer the score is,the better thegame. Yeah i do tend to get pissed off by immortal gwfs who we were dpsing 3 guys and he was caping points with no regard of us. Like wenwere some mosquitos flying round. Or get hituntil death by thin air and not seen any rogue for the entire game. Also please see me as an average guy cause i dont spend a lot of time ingame due to RL and i dont due dungeon farming or crazy 20hours playing just to get something.
But eventualy the actual balance of the pvp is how u play ur game. Just rememberits teamplY not a solo fight and what your doing its for theteam not for ur personal score...if u get this it means u rely are a pvp player. Also keep in mind that PVP its a choice and not something "U have to to" and if u get in and die a lot in a few seconds,pvp its not for u. Also if u stand outside asolo instance asking for group in zone chat: PVP IS NOT FOR U!!!
Matchmaking is a mess.
Yeasterday i solo queued as usual. Got 19k-19k-20k-20k-23k enemy team vs my team of 8k (!)-11k-15k-16k and my 17k.
And the guys were not premade, they went solo queue.
And it happens most of the time. All big guns in 1 team, huge gear difference.
So even from a group fight point of view, it's not reliable.
Talking about single classes, and TR since this is their topic, could some TRs clarify how to counter right now:
- Movement: met several TRs who could move almost as fast as my GWF while sprinting. I use bravery. And that was their normal movement speed
- Their shadow of demose destroy things. With red glyphs, even faster. And is what, AoE? Explain please.
- They are not squishy anymore. Not that much at least to justify the following:
- still they stay in stealth 90% of the time. You barely see them popping out of stealth 1 second, rolling away into stealth the second after. Add to movement speed allowing them to never get caught anymore while in stealth and the fact they now deal loads of damage.
How does this stuff works? I'm not a TR.
The result is just that they are immune to damage or out of sight 90% of the time, and also now dealing high DPS.
Also, yesterday got hit by a 46k LB. Was fighting another TR, the second TR went from behind and pretty much 1-shotted my GWF (42k HP, 22% tenacity, 46-47% DR with feats, 36% deflect, PBI set).
How does whis work cause right now it's unplayable. They can't be seen and evade easily most of the damage, and at the same time they can kill stuff quite fast.
15% run speed from class feature
25% run speed from scoundrel capstone
30% run speed during stealth from class feature
executioner's shadow of demise basically procs on anyone hit while the rogue is in stealth. within 6 seconds, 50% of the damage dealt during that time-frame should be dealt and consume shadow of demise. someone said it was bugged in a new way so probably need 1 of them for specifics on their feat.
the ones with the easiest time with staying in stealth are saboteurs as they have plenty of stealth refill feats and can even use an encounter every 15 seconds without losing stealth. the rest of the feat paths have to use gloaming cut and spend 10 points in the sab tree to even attempt to be a perma.
we are technically just as squishy. i simply gained 10.5% deflect from dex and a scoundrel feat (10% more if i am close to dying). although the 5% extra life-steal might be helping but not sure.
defense practically doesn't exist to executioner's. they have a feat that gives 25% armor pen which allows them to 1-shot anyone if they don't get a deflect or enough resist from abilities. if you know a rogue is coming in stealth, the best thing to do is an instant cast aoe cc to prevent the incoming 1-shot.
- he can stay in stealth 90% of the time going on-off point in rivenscar escaping death anytime
- he can deal loads of damage now
- he can perma-daze you
- he can roll longer now
- he can move faster than any other class and can't keep up not even with GWF sprint
TRs are supposed to be "squishy", yet they are out of reach 90% of the time or immune and now they can deal damage.
You either have survivability or damage. Not both.
Stealth must get off when you get hit, the more damage you take, the longer it takes for you to go back into stealth.
That's blanaced
Not current perma stealth, perma daze, DPS OP shlt.
Also: stun being deflected is not fixed cause when i stun a TR they still get free in no time. Fix this other idiocy, would you devs, or you only care about blessing one class each module with godly powers?
Thanks.
I got to agree. I have no idea how did devs succeeded to keep perma stealth when they stated themselves that they want to change that with the TR revamp. I don't even... Also, I agree that DPS classes should not be both tanky AND deal insane dps. Whereas the actual tanks deal rather low damage and have worse survivability.
Some people are taking the best things of different paths and mixing it together, perma stealth is for sabs, "perma" daze is from scoundrel, and SoD is from Exe, no rogue can have those 3 at the same time.
Just FYI you are not fighing an SoD TR. SoD is broken right now as it is not doing what it suppose to do and does abysmal dmg. TRs right now will have to use Lashing Blade from stealth for it to do decent damage.
You were probably fighting a Sab TR. They are the ones that can remain in stealth and do good damage as far as I can tell.
Stealth already 'goes off' when taking damage and already takes longer to come back when taking damage. In fact stealth has more limitations than any other TAB ability. And the only attack that doesn't drain stealth now is Gloaming Cut. It was never intended for perma stealth to be eliminated in this rework, just made more difficult/limite. TBH I think that failed as with Sab it's easier than ever to perma. The trouble is that nerfing stealth any further will make it completely unusable for other paths - Scoundrel already spends hardly any time in stealth.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
When GWF was nerfed the motto was "damage OR survivability".
Now it's "you need both btw...".
If i go DPS on my GWF (as it is) i go down fast 2v1.
Now, as i said, it's not just stealth, but stealth combined with all the tools.
It's pretty easy:
stealth requires the TR to get damage to drain.
But when a TR attacks he's usually in some immunity.
Or he just dazed you. He strikes. while you can't hit him.
Then rolls away for a long distance, in immunity, into stealth.
Then rolls again, immune.
Then can move way faster than any other class.
And then can come back.
He is in stealth.
Or immune.
Or when your turn comes, he's rolling away a ton, immune to CC and damage, back into stealth and out of range in no time.
Plus, to make it better, it's latency friendly cause all he must do is time his tools on his side with no lag, while you must take lag into account to land a CC perhaps in a fraction of millisecond between rolls. Sprint is not enough to keep up with their movement speed during stealth. Now they can also dodge longer, and 4 times. So let's say you guess where they are and sprint to them, they roll away a long distance. And you don'0t have enough sprint to keep up with 4 long rolls+ crazy base movement speed. So now catching them in stealth is out of question for a GWF. They should then fight on node, but they can get on-off node at will and engage/ disengage whenever they want. So stealth doesn't really go down. Plus, idk why, stuns seem to do shlt often. It's not fixed and deflection is still decreasing stuns duration.
Put all together, you have what people say: TRs are out of reach most of the time if not all the time.
But now they also can efficiently DPS you down while being out of reach.
I tell you what would be balanced. You are in stealth as much as you want. When you enter combat and attack, your stealth goes away so after dealing damage you must survive through 4 long dodges, base movement speed, dazes and deflect+ base build HPs.
More than enough to deal with melees and also 4 long dodges + movement speed is enough to get away from CW range, you need to (god forbid) actually time your dodges and daze (not perma-daze, but one daze to mix with rolls and movement) to avoid getting caught.
The enemy can see you and can also time his attacks to, instead, catch you.
What is missed in current and past TRs is the part when the TR is vulnerable and the enemy can counterattack.
Sure and I guess we can also have unstopable do the same, when you enter combat and attack it is gone. Sounds perfectly fair, eh? Go ahead and do that with the rest of the tab's too, have them stop working when you actually try to use them -- brilliant.
Now I do not like perma stealth and none of my TR play in that fashion and I advocated against it in the feedback and preview threads.
According to the logic in this topic it should.
Patch notes are one thing and reality, be it only virtual reality is another. Everyone, who is a bit home in IT knows, that bugs can be introduced to the program code with or without intention.
Shadow of Demise isn't fixed 100%. I was doing my everyday PVP session and as always i was playing with PUGs. Didn't make a screen shot, but i can say, i saw SoD proc on all 4 of us at the same time, still. TR is now so OP that everybody in our guild has quit PVP. The perma was always a disgusting, unfair and unethical thing to play and for myself i judged everbody, if he played a perma or not, cause it shows many things about ones personality, but this is science...
Now perma is not gone. 99% they still can be in stealth. Things even got worse, that +300-350 % dmg increase they got is unbelievable disgusting towards all other classes.
Some TR players were bashing today on one of my guild mates, who wrote here on the forum abut his feelings, that the HR got nerfed. I have run with the person to some Dragons and i can testify, yes the HR archery path has undergone some nerf.
Now some of you will come, that it isn't in the patch notes. LOL, do you think everything is there, cmon don't be kids.
In pvp, my build and aimed shot is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. I can't get anybody down with it anymore, except a few squishy CWs, but a PVP speced CW can withstand it too. Now GF has those Glyphs and i am dead, before him, he only has to stay in one spot and do nothing.
I used this build before the so called TR SoD fix and was very competitive with it, so my guess is, they must have changed things.
But i left the worst part until the end, clone wars. Many new recruits in my guild are new or newly returned players, who make, now guess what, yes a TR. Many of them are immature teens, who enjoy the fact, that they can troll the game, especially PVP, even more, than in the perma era. Many of my guildies, old and new now delete their character or buy a slot (if they use the old char as AD slave) to roll a TR. In the instance i was in, in Trade of Blades i saw only 2 non TR classes, one being me and believe me it was full.
I don't know, shall we all make a TR now to enjoy the game or will this be only a 1 class game in the future?
I am happy for the DC changes, but if Mod 5 is all about this, then bring back the old days, even the 100% perma stuff was better, i mean how long will PVP survive, if a premade or PUG team with a 20k+ GS consists 2-3 TR and even 1 can 1-2 shot 4 players at once?!
Premade vs PUGs was always an issue not solved, i know why
I can only say my guild is full to the top with people and NOBODY PVPs anymore.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
But you know what, there is no class (except for DCs - not sure if they got much better or just a bit to better to merely last a sec or two longer while killed) - no class weaker in PvP than SWs. It's amazing how we get a new paragon path and yet there are so few SWs left in PvP because it's impossible to live longer than half a minute since the beginning of a match. Being more than okay in PvE with high Life Steal and ArPen survivability, I wonder every day why I can't even hit anyone properly in PvP? Funny enough, if there's someone I can kill these days in PvP it's another unfortunate SW.
PVE /= PVP
Also, high dps isn't the only problem with TRs in PVP.
What you just wrote is nonsense and i'll explain you why.
Unstoppable activates AFTER taking damage. So the moment the GWF is vulnerable is the beginning of the fight. Can try to avoid CC with sprint but the GWF takes damage. If you time your attacks right, you can burst DPS on a GWF cause he is a meat shield with no immunities.
AFTER THAT he goes unstoppable 4-8 seconds. Which is not permanent but quite short.
AFTER THAT he's vulnerable again.
Also, on a side note, after unstoppable nerf you can DPS non-sentinel GWFs even during unstoppable.
If you are a good player you can burst the GWF, kite his unstoppable and burst again. Which is exactly what i'm saying: the GWF have windows of vulnerability.
TRs start in stealth, so you can't do shlt.
Then DPS you.
Go immune ITC or something else.
Roll away for a long dinstace (immune).
Go stealth. Roll long dinstance (immune) to make you lose track of him.
Use insane base movement speed and dodges= most mobility in the whole game to avoid being found, going off node if needed. Then coming back for more.
There's no true window of vulnerability cause the TR is always out of sight, or immune, or out of reach. Or, if a window can be found, it's so small that lag alone can make you miss it.
If by chance you catch the TR and make SF proc, the guy can usually double roll away into stealth and disappear while any other class simply try to recover, fight and either win or die, fighting to the end.
Even perma-runner GWFs can still be DPSed down while running away if at low health. TRs can't cause they are already in stealth, or double rolling into stealth (immunity).
Add to this that stuns can be deflected, so even if you catch the TR with FLS, they often freeze for less than a second and get free so fast you can't even land 1 attack. And i have FLS feated for longer stun, so you get the idea.
Roll a GWF, try to play it then say me if you prefer TR tools for survivability or Unstoppable, which one is superior.
Exactly. In a nutshell.
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