Thinking Dstrike is going live in its current form (or will stay that way long) is crazy. It hits like most classes dailies and you can make it crit any time you want.
Same with Bloodbath. The mechanic is obviously not WaI.
Even if this stuff goes live is going to get nerfed within days. Everyone knows it, so why try to make BS arguments that this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is ok. So you can dominate PVP for a couple days. Rub your tiny epeens?
Cryptic will make some knee jerk nerfs and they most likely will not be something you like. How about you offer some suggestions to realistically change the paths so they are viable.
Each path should be a different but viable way to play a TR. They should not have to rely on some broken mechanic.
As a mainly PVE EXE TR player, I think the TR needs a huge buff to be on par with the other classes in terms of damage, especially on single-target dps.
The TR has one job, which is to burn the boss, and we're doing it badly. I don't really care about AOE damage at all; I would rather put all my damage on a boss than running around throwing smoke bombs all over, its not my job to control, nor it is to AOE.
Right now on my 14K GWF, I can dish out more dps per single target way more than my 14K TR. (I crescendo an avg of 90K, which is way far than any number i've seen on my TR)
This translates into bad gear scaling for the TR into the higher GS range. So as far as PVE goes, the TR needs a huge buff IMO.
However, I can see that such change will greatly affect the fragile balance of the PVP, so my suggestion is to separate the PVP and PVE in terms of encouter damage & behaviour and feats; you probably don't have to dodge massive AOE boss attack in a pvp match.
Buff the PVE TR in the way you guys see fit, and then construct a global pvp modifer to change the damage, encounters and feats when entering PVP ground.
This modifier should also make it easier to make future pvp balances if needed.
Any PVP build should work excellently in PVE, but not vise versa, so this wouldn't hurt the PVPers out there, and will please the rest of the population.
As far as the changes are going, I think you guys are heading in the right direction.
The path he is talking about has zero problems in doing the same.
depends. nothing i listed actually benefits permas since they practically don't get hit enough to worry and the new gear already gives them 100% immunity to stealth damage (except from bile?). personally, i feel the perma path shouldn't have damage bonuses but that is just me (they already have the easiest time of maintaining 100% critical and a decent amount of combat advantage damage).
scoundrels and executioners can play the perma game if they want to invest 10 points in sab i guess. otherwise, no.
ps: i feel like that guardian could at least have blocked and waited to retaliate the melee attack known as gloaming cut. i kinda don't think that video is a good example of rogues vs guardians
ps: i feel like that guardian could at least have blocked and waited to retaliate the melee attack known as gloaming cut. i kinda don't think that video is a good example of rogues vs guardians
Both those guys are good players. You need to see the direction where the attack comes from or Block is useless. Also he was CCed almost all the time, and ate huge crit after crit after crit after crit without being able to even hold up guard. The TR didn't even bother to use a daily, cause at wills were enough.
The difference between classes are TOO BIG. Same GF player killed a good CW without losing any HP with a 30K+ anvil - easy mode enabled. Yet when he faced the TR, he lost without any chance of retaliation.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2014
Just a little note that I see the vs. TR video was using a defensive spec (protector) but the vs. CW was using an offensive spec (conqueror).
For what it's worth. Mostly just to point out that the build used in the TR video is meant for survival and does illustrate that it didn't hold up so well to the WiSco, but it probably wouldn't kill easily against other classes either.
Just a little note that I see the vs. TR video was using a defensive spec (protector) but the vs. CW was using an offensive spec (conqueror).
For what it's worth. Mostly just to point out that the build used in the TR video is meant for survival and does illustrate that it didn't hold up so well to the WiSco, but it probably wouldn't kill easily against other classes either.
thought that was a sab build since he kept proccing shadowy opportunity. he shouldn't be able to reach our daze feats if he has a tier 4 sab feat. after looking closer, he just did dazing strike while staying in stealth due to capstone
the ability to stay in stealth and constantly daze......
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
When I first saw the new changes to the TR I was really hoping they were getting rid of perma stealth and ending this problem once and for all. When I saw they were actually making it easier and on top of that loading both gear and feats to almost force players to choose that path it started to bother me. I will not go perma stealth and instead I will play purely for what I find the funnest -- even if the end result is less than optimal.
When I first saw the new changes to the TR I was really hoping they were getting rid of perma stealth and ending this problem once and for all. When I saw they were actually making it easier and on top of that loading both gear and feats to almost force players to choose that path it started to bother me. I will not go perma stealth and instead I will play purely for what I find the funnest -- even if the end result is less than optimal.
Your major problem is that you don't understand simple thing which is-perma stealth is intended and always was. They only said they want to make it harder and that's it.
As far as i'm concerned it always surprise me how people can get overwhelmed by this propaganda anti-TR which was first to destroy dmg, and then successively to achieve success complete-destroy class-to destroy perma stealth.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Your major problem is that you don't understand simple thing which is-perma stealth is intended and always was. They only said they want to make it harder and that's it.
As far as i'm concerned it always surprise me how people can get overwhelmed by this propaganda anti-TR which was first to destroy dmg, and then successively to achieve success complete-destroy class-to destroy perma stealth.
It is that I do not find it challenging or fun. It is effective, yes, but it bores me and seems to bother others enough (those subject to it in PvP) that I find it cheesy and harmful to the health and balancing issues of the game.
I see stealth as a tool in my chest, a powerful tool but not the only tool. I want to be able to use the tool and not be bound by the tool.
Bug
Shocking execution damage is not increased by 240% but even less than 200%. With 3914 power it was dealing dmg of 3021-3639. It was with 23% dmg bonus and +8% of strenght. So it was overall 31% dmg bonus. Now on preview it does 7250-8735. It is supposed to deal on these attributes i mentioned before dmg of 10200+. It is obviously wrong calculated and should be fixed. As is now it is not even 200% more dmg.
One more thing is that it can be dodged which is another bug. As it was said before shocking execution can't be dodged and only respect effect of immunity to damage, as of for example exaltation(in mod 4 at least)
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
This isnt new what do you expect when you combine At-will+daily+feats = just a day to day common damage nothing special about it
other class will drop one daily and your dead no need to wait for DOT finish
Feedback: PVP and PVE this must be addressed separately or else every aspect will be pulled to discord
Feedback: Disheartening At its current state a plain disheart is ok but when coupled with stealth, dailies and right equips and feats it shows awesome damage potential, now the question is it the TR or the person behind the rogue that is OP? In my opinion its the person using the TR due to his creativity and proper setup its not the class itself that is over performing. Its no easy to synergy feats,items,passives and dailies only those who really know the class is able to combine this different bonuses
So I ask you, how's it harder? I want the class to succeed as much as you, but the question remains.
The Sab tree needs a rework.
Well, you can't for example use duelist flurry with glyphs from stealth which is deadly and can kill enemies. Also you can't attack people when you are in stealth.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Shadow of demise should not stack, its too powerful with DoT's and such. It should either not stack or have stack limit, I made my shadow of demise do 50 - 100k 3 times in a row. Thats really strong.
Also, Distracting Knife feat duration still not fixed.
Yea I managed to stack it to 25 stacks at 10k dmg a stack on the 3 target dummies 750k dmg in about 15 seconds. I was thinking this cant be intentional.
Disheartening Strike, PoTB, DF Bleeds, Smoke Bomb and even Plaguefire ticks and maybe other enchantments all aplly Shadow of Demise. This is too much, needs to have stack cap or not be stackable. I managed to apply 40 - 50 stacks of Shadow of Demise with plaguefire.
Aye there are a lot of those odd stacking issues and it isn't limited to the TR shadow of demise but perhaps it is made more obvious that way. I know other classes always like to claim WAI, but at least we are honest when it seems to be excessive -- but possibly made more so with us since we are not used to anything excessive.
I'm not sure about other classes but this seems to be very different in its own way. This is PIERCING damage which can rise problems in PvP and in PvE, its not very hard to get stacks. Its about 10 - 30k damage hitting 20 or so times consecutively. It might not be much of a problem against regular mobs because they die too fast but against a boss, they will get destroyed. If this is WAI, then RIP balance.
Feedback: I was on preview and new Shadow of Demise is AWESOME. Executioner path have its dmg now. I like it stackable; it must be imho, but a stack limit maybe would be a good idea. 5 stacks limit? Dunno. 10 is too much?
Bosses are melting now under our dmg. All I can say is: I like it
shadow of demise: it stacks and can be resisted.
Your Shadow of Demise deals 1802 (5945) Physical Damage to Monocromatico 7.
shadow of demise: should proc on encounter use, it's easy to exploit the proc
now. Ideal would be let it stack but only with encounters
shocking execution: damage can be resisted
Critical Hit! Your Shocking Execution deals 12445 (30032) Physical Damage to Mmm Mmm Yeah Yeah.
shocking execution can be dodged but i m ok with that
FIX PATH OF THE BLADE to proc enchantments, the damage got a 166% nerf on single target!
shadow strike needs something more or less cooldown
Lashing blade need to be a standart 12 sec encounter
under 20% shocking should refill AP, this does not happen if the first shocking is dodged
dis. strike really needs a tone down
Comments
Same with Bloodbath. The mechanic is obviously not WaI.
Even if this stuff goes live is going to get nerfed within days. Everyone knows it, so why try to make BS arguments that this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> is ok. So you can dominate PVP for a couple days. Rub your tiny epeens?
Cryptic will make some knee jerk nerfs and they most likely will not be something you like. How about you offer some suggestions to realistically change the paths so they are viable.
Each path should be a different but viable way to play a TR. They should not have to rely on some broken mechanic.
As a mainly PVE EXE TR player, I think the TR needs a huge buff to be on par with the other classes in terms of damage, especially on single-target dps.
The TR has one job, which is to burn the boss, and we're doing it badly. I don't really care about AOE damage at all; I would rather put all my damage on a boss than running around throwing smoke bombs all over, its not my job to control, nor it is to AOE.
Right now on my 14K GWF, I can dish out more dps per single target way more than my 14K TR. (I crescendo an avg of 90K, which is way far than any number i've seen on my TR)
This translates into bad gear scaling for the TR into the higher GS range. So as far as PVE goes, the TR needs a huge buff IMO.
However, I can see that such change will greatly affect the fragile balance of the PVP, so my suggestion is to separate the PVP and PVE in terms of encouter damage & behaviour and feats; you probably don't have to dodge massive AOE boss attack in a pvp match.
Buff the PVE TR in the way you guys see fit, and then construct a global pvp modifer to change the damage, encounters and feats when entering PVP ground.
This modifier should also make it easier to make future pvp balances if needed.
Any PVP build should work excellently in PVE, but not vise versa, so this wouldn't hurt the PVPers out there, and will please the rest of the population.
As far as the changes are going, I think you guys are heading in the right direction.
Thanks you for your hard work.
depends. nothing i listed actually benefits permas since they practically don't get hit enough to worry and the new gear already gives them 100% immunity to stealth damage (except from bile?). personally, i feel the perma path shouldn't have damage bonuses but that is just me (they already have the easiest time of maintaining 100% critical and a decent amount of combat advantage damage).
scoundrels and executioners can play the perma game if they want to invest 10 points in sab i guess. otherwise, no.
ps: i feel like that guardian could at least have blocked and waited to retaliate the melee attack known as gloaming cut. i kinda don't think that video is a good example of rogues vs guardians
Both those guys are good players. You need to see the direction where the attack comes from or Block is useless. Also he was CCed almost all the time, and ate huge crit after crit after crit after crit without being able to even hold up guard. The TR didn't even bother to use a daily, cause at wills were enough.
The difference between classes are TOO BIG. Same GF player killed a good CW without losing any HP with a 30K+ anvil - easy mode enabled. Yet when he faced the TR, he lost without any chance of retaliation.
CW vs GF
TR vs GF
For what it's worth. Mostly just to point out that the build used in the TR video is meant for survival and does illustrate that it didn't hold up so well to the WiSco, but it probably wouldn't kill easily against other classes either.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
thought that was a sab build since he kept proccing shadowy opportunity. he shouldn't be able to reach our daze feats if he has a tier 4 sab feat. after looking closer, he just did dazing strike while staying in stealth due to capstone
the ability to stay in stealth and constantly daze......
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Your major problem is that you don't understand simple thing which is-perma stealth is intended and always was. They only said they want to make it harder and that's it.
As far as i'm concerned it always surprise me how people can get overwhelmed by this propaganda anti-TR which was first to destroy dmg, and then successively to achieve success complete-destroy class-to destroy perma stealth.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
It is that I do not find it challenging or fun. It is effective, yes, but it bores me and seems to bother others enough (those subject to it in PvP) that I find it cheesy and harmful to the health and balancing issues of the game.
I see stealth as a tool in my chest, a powerful tool but not the only tool. I want to be able to use the tool and not be bound by the tool.
Shocking execution damage is not increased by 240% but even less than 200%. With 3914 power it was dealing dmg of 3021-3639. It was with 23% dmg bonus and +8% of strenght. So it was overall 31% dmg bonus. Now on preview it does 7250-8735. It is supposed to deal on these attributes i mentioned before dmg of 10200+. It is obviously wrong calculated and should be fixed. As is now it is not even 200% more dmg.
One more thing is that it can be dodged which is another bug. As it was said before shocking execution can't be dodged and only respect effect of immunity to damage, as of for example exaltation(in mod 4 at least)
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
This isnt new what do you expect when you combine At-will+daily+feats = just a day to day common damage nothing special about it
other class will drop one daily and your dead no need to wait for DOT finish
Feedback: PVP and PVE
this must be addressed separately or else every aspect will be pulled to discord
Feedback: Disheartening
At its current state a plain disheart is ok but when coupled with stealth, dailies and right equips and feats it shows awesome damage potential, now the question is it the TR or the person behind the rogue that is OP? In my opinion its the person using the TR due to his creativity and proper setup its not the class itself that is over performing. Its no easy to synergy feats,items,passives and dailies only those who really know the class is able to combine this different bonuses
Well, you can't for example use duelist flurry with glyphs from stealth which is deadly and can kill enemies. Also you can't attack people when you are in stealth.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Also, Distracting Knife feat duration still not fixed.
I applied for the job but they said I was too dumb...
if you use lurkers, then potb > stealth > smoke > lashing it will do HUUUUUGE amounts of damage!
while awesome for pve i really dont think this is appropriate as it will break pvp
This change doesn't appear to be showing. At DEX of 21, DEX is contributing 5.5% to Deflection chance (0.5% per point above 10)
Bosses are melting now under our dmg. All I can say is: I like it
Ty devs.
The added Deflection chance is at the bottom of the list: there are two listings for .5% deflection chance with DEX.
...
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Edit: Found. Seems like an unusual and non-intuative way of displaying the bonus!
Your Shadow of Demise deals 1802 (5945) Physical Damage to Monocromatico 7.
shadow of demise: should proc on encounter use, it's easy to exploit the proc
now. Ideal would be let it stack but only with encounters
shocking execution: damage can be resisted
Critical Hit! Your Shocking Execution deals 12445 (30032) Physical Damage to Mmm Mmm Yeah Yeah.
shocking execution can be dodged but i m ok with that
FIX PATH OF THE BLADE to proc enchantments, the damage got a 166% nerf on single target!
shadow strike needs something more or less cooldown
Lashing blade need to be a standart 12 sec encounter
under 20% shocking should refill AP, this does not happen if the first shocking is dodged
dis. strike really needs a tone down