Feedback: I think Razor Action needs a rework of some kind, its UP compared to the other class features in whisperknife, IIRC it can't crit, it has 5 target cap and highest I have hit is 4k. TR AP gain is not that good also, its better to slot in dagger threat which increases damage of whirwind of blades, damage of blitz and DS. Both paragon paths have a less than useful class feat but even the one in MI is not completely useless if you are Exe since its harder to mantain CA.
If I've said this once, I've said this a thousand times: The devs do not care what your opinion of another player or their feedback may be. Please do not debate the validity of another player's feedback or whether or not you personally think they even have a right to post in this thread.
If the post isn't concerning your personal experience and feedback with the changes on the preview server, it does not belong here.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Feedback: Trickster Rogue The current changes are reasonable and inline so that rogues can have equal footing with other class. The high damage this class posses is compensated by low def,hp,deflect,movement speed, high cooldowns,slow AP gain and activation of encounters/dailies, poor ablity point design and on top of that a very fragile TAB mechanic, with the above mentioned disadvantages compared to other class TR DESERVES THE DAMAGE POTENTIAL to earn its place in pvp and pve.
Feedback: Disheartening First of all this is a DOT at-will which cannot stack and moreover it can be deflected,reduced by armor/dr/shield and CLEANSED or out healed by encounter,artifact and potions. Test on dummies doesnt prove anything because what I mentioned above doesnt posses by dummies, in real pvp it cannot hit 90+k damage not unless the target ignored stats that will make him durable meaning it all boils down in setup used, so dont complain about OP damage if you yourself did not invest in defense and build a glass cannon right? So the current damage of disheart is just reasonable and the complaints regarding about TR damage are just lame excuses to be lazy instead of being resourceful
Feedback: Intelligence Rogues are highly in need of cdr almost all of TR use INT/Recovery not mainly for damage but for survival outside stealth.
Feedback: Deft Strike I feel this encounter is nice to have if rogues can use this on team members and at reasonable cooldown.
Feedback: Razor Action I think this has no further use when not using daily and the damage is not noticeable.
Feedback: Vengeance Pursuit I find the second activation after dagger throw kinda slow because in pvp TRs are just one rotation dead anyway.
Feedback: Impact Shot As a whisper knife TR I often use this encounter to buy me sometime to cast shadow strike but the activation is slow and the stun knockback isnt impressive or useful so before I can even land it I was already disabled and dead eventually. I also find the reduced damage per stack to a low damage encounter unreasonable so pls a little attention for IS Sir Gentle!
Feedback: Shadow Strike This encounter means life or death to many TRs both in pve and pvp the activation is slow, damage is very very poor and worst its long cooldown for a utility encounter.
Feedback: Bait and Switch In pve the taunt isnt noticeable some will just ignore it and in pvp skilled player will never touch this. I feel this encounter needs something more like refilling meter even outside stealth, provides immunity for QoL or this could be a nice aoe cc trap like demolishers in GG(just like to share my thoughts)
1) TR class will not be balanced around both PvP and PvE unless these aspects get separated (global trigger like IWD mark - once you're in ANY PvP instance, your skills, feats, everything have their funcionality adjusted)
2) TR class does not excell at anything in particular - every damage dealing class have something that's good at - CWs have damage AND control, SWs have skyhigh damage or can have both good damage AND healing capability, GWF have moderate damage (sadly lower than other strikers) but also survivability (not like GF but also not paperlike like TR), HR have high damage (archery) or damage + extreme survivability - at the moment, TR are apparently too good in PvP and still underperforming in PvE
3) TR scales horribly with gear - my 12k SW could easily do what my 12k TR struggles on horribly and is forced to back off - balance should done around every gear level, new players may be repeled by the TR poor performance when encountered with ease of gameplay of other classes
4) Exe feats could really trigger off combat advantage rather than from stealth since (especially in PvE) it's very difficult to stay in stealth - right now it's basicly 1 stealth meter per mob group, or 2 meters if you slot shadow strike (which then again, with it's low damage and slow/bugging activation hampers damage output of... striker class)
5) Rogue is a class that's supposed to create/disarm traps, make poisons, handicap enemies and just walk up behind them and slit their throat/cut the aorty resulting in enemy being "1shotted". Since that's hard to balance in this game mechanics I really opt for TR to deal damage in series of quick bursts, with stacking effects (Wicked Reminder comes to mind - low CD, moderate damage, stacking effect, debuff in this case). This would prevent 1shotting in PvP scenario (since you'd have to stick to the target long enough to deal serious damage, which will not be easy with mod 5 stealth change) and would help in PvE where Rogue should always pick off the biggest <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in the room, again, not creating a 1-second-boss-erase scenario (the longer you stay on boss and maintain your stacks, the more potent your damage is - something different yet similar to SWs damage over time idea). For instance, Lashing Blade does X damage with a let's say 7s cooldown. TR cast it and there's a trigger placed on a mob and if you cast Lashing Blade in the next 8s or 9s, your Lashing Blade will deal X+Z% damage leaving trigger again - stacking *number* times. Same for other mainly damaging abilities.
1) TR class will not be balanced around both PvP and PvE unless these aspects get separated (global trigger like IWD mark - once you're in ANY PvP instance, your skills, feats, everything have their funcionality adjusted)
2) TR class does not excell at anything in particular - every damage dealing class have something that's good at - CWs have damage AND control, SWs have skyhigh damage or can have both good damage AND healing capability, GWF have moderate damage (sadly lower than other strikers) but also survivability (not like GF but also not paperlike like TR), HR have high damage (archery) or damage + extreme survivability - at the moment, TR are apparently too good in PvP and still underperforming in PvE
3) TR scales horribly with gear - my 12k SW could easily do what my 12k TR struggles on horribly and is forced to back off - balance should done around every gear level, new players may be repeled by the TR poor performance when encountered with ease of gameplay of other classes
4) Exe feats could really trigger off combat advantage rather than from stealth since (especially in PvE) it's very difficult to stay in stealth - right now it's basicly 1 stealth meter per mob group, or 2 meters if you slot shadow strike (which then again, with it's low damage and slow/bugging activation hampers damage output of... striker class)
5) Rogue is a class that's supposed to create/disarm traps, make poisons, handicap enemies and just walk up behind them and slit their throat/cut the aorty resulting in enemy being "1shotted". Since that's hard to balance in this game mechanics I really opt for TR to deal damage in series of quick bursts, with stacking effects (Wicked Reminder comes to mind - low CD, moderate damage, stacking effect, debuff in this case). This would prevent 1shotting in PvP scenario (since you'd have to stick to the target long enough to deal serious damage, which will not be easy with mod 5 stealth change) and would help in PvE where Rogue should always pick off the biggest <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in the room, again, not creating a 1-second-boss-erase scenario (the longer you stay on boss and maintain your stacks, the more potent your damage is - something different yet similar to SWs damage over time idea). For instance, Lashing Blade does X damage with a let's say 7s cooldown. TR cast it and there's a trigger placed on a mob and if you cast Lashing Blade in the next 8s or 9s, your Lashing Blade will deal X+Z% damage leaving trigger again - stacking *number* times. Same for other mainly damaging abilities.
I second to this a little attention here please thank you
Bug: Saboteur When "One with the Shadows" is active the Stealth Meter isn't refilled when using Path of the Blade. I tried it several times on the target dummies in Dread Ring just to be sure I didn't miss the uptime of "One with the Shadows". The other damaging Encounter Powers seem to work correctly with this feat.
(I'm sorry, if this has already been reported -> 125 pages are just too much )
PVP Feedback:
The damage of TRs on preview is way to high considering the fact that perma stealth is still possible.
I dont get it how this thread became so infested with biased informations, and why players of the class are always just trying to improve the performance of a class, instead of really balancing it.
Perma stealth is nearly as easy to get as on live, but the damage even with perma setup is crazy:
- disheartening does very high dot dmg and doesnt reduce stealth
- Gloaming cut even refills stealth, and with new dodges of TRs, u can pretty easy hit 5-10k+ with atwill and then retreat to stealth
Wasnt the whole purpose of this module to rework TR, so that his dmg improves but not without the drawback of not having perma stealth? So, that failed. Whatever people in this thread are claiming or tryinig to troll, all serious PVP TRs are still perma, but doing huge dmg.
What we have is: TR is best nodeholder (because of perma stealth) and best node clearer (because of unequaled burst and even dot dmg) and even good utility because of his mobility in stealth and so good rotating to other nodes.
I was never against perma stealth, as I am not against a TR who does insane burst dmg. But BOTH AT THE SAME TIME?
Right now, nobody can kill a BiS and wellplayed TR on preview while he can kill u no matter what.
The changes still aren't fun. I already wrote a small novel on this.
The DF change might have single-handedly saved the class from complete meh-ness in PvE, but it's still not even remotely on par with... Oh, any other semi-decently geared class that's DPS-oriented.
I mean, yes, the DF change put it on the right track. On training dummies on live I get about 8.8k DPS as current MI Executioner, stealthing when I can; on preview I'm getting about 10.5k DPS as an MI Saboteur using Sly Flourish to apply the debuff and DFing otherwise, stealthing when I hit it during the flurry. Which, yes, completely drains it again and in any real situation would leave me dead in the water... But I've given up on you guys even considering a reduction in the amount of stealth at-wills eat in PvE, let alone getting rid of the godawful thing. Clearly you're not listening on that. It's why I've been inactive in this thread. Why bother?
SWs with less power and less GS than me can still rip bosses to shreds better than I can on Preview.
Executioner remains almost entirely PvP-oriented and has virtually no feats 90% of the time.
Saboteur's features barely work with itself - CD reduction on entering stealth isn't helpful much when you were saving your stealth until after everything came off cooldown because you can't attack otherwise without losing stealth. And good luck staying behind things for the feats that require it, still. Solo this barely happens, in groups you get GWFs and GFs spinning bosses and elites like it's a friggin' pinwheel half the time.
Our cooldowns are ridiculous still. We need INT but we can't get it without sacrificing other things.
We still have pants for survival outside of stealth, but of course we can't remain in stealth, and pretty much all our damage-increasing feats are now entirely based on being in stealth, so CA is almost useless since it does nothing except a little extra damage.
Changing DEX to add a full percent Deflect instead of half is a cute move and I suppose it helps with the DEX you can't avoid, but ultimately pointless. CHA still gives that, and is still currently better. Fail. Make DEX affect our cooldowns instead of INT, or make it affect stealth regen, or give resistance ignored, or affect damage, or something. There's still no reason to take it.
That 'QoL' change to stealth depletion from damage? In my testing, it's pretty much a straight nerf on anything you actually would need to return to stealth against for PvE. DoTs aren't that common in PvE, and TR's defenses are horrible, so I'm now losing more when I do get hit than I was before unless it's meaningless trash I wouldn't need to be in stealth for anyway. All those 10k hits that before just drained a little? Now they drain almost half a bar's worth. That's not a QoL change, that's an annoyance.
Can we at least get an acknowledgment that somebody, somewhere, is aware that the TR walk animation is still missing since July? And that we'd like it back?
Smoke Bomb DoT is a nice change, but I'm not entirely convinced to add it to my bar.
Nothing in these changes has convinced me yet to not just gear up my HR instead. I play my TR on live and I have fun with him, and then I just get depressed and go back to my CW or HR because that playstyle I like is going away.
We haven't gained nearly enough in PvE to justify this mess or the stealth nerf.
No, I don't care about PvP, or PvP balance. I will indeed keep harping on PvE. It's what I play. It's what I enjoy. It's what keeps getting put under a bus in the name of PvP. I'm tired.
I still say it's better to change OP stuff like Bloodbath, so it fills some of the "holes" in the TR's utility/defense/CC etc etc.. instead of try to defend it the way it is, as a huge damage power with little methods of direct countering. There could be any number of creative ideas that snips away the OP damage, but replaces it with useful utilities.
Now people are saying DHS is OP, and sry Kweassa but your going to have to own up to that one.
They didn't increase the BASE DAMAGE TO MATCH THE LENGTHENED POWER DURATION...!!!!
Oh dear lord.. **facepalm**..
What they did was reduce the damage by 10%, and then divide that by 15 seconds;;;
So now, a single tick of DHS does roughly 1/3rd of what it used to do.
No wonder the damage became so uselessly weak....
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE... They've actually made the Whisperknife even WEAKER!!!!!
We might as well call it the "Weakerknife" now...
Funny thing is, I cautioned about buffing DHS for PVP concerns immediately after this on page 19.
Blood Bath having auto-crit and SO procs happened on day 1 of the M5 changes in preview. I reported the SO procs as a PVP issue on page 46, how come no one said anything or backed me up then? NOW your saying TR is OP over a disscusion in the past few pages from an issue that existed day one. I'm going to fall off my chair laughing if BB base damage gets nerfed and it's SO synergy stays the same.
Hopefully we can see more changes like dodge roll improvement, DOT smoke bomb, and flurry buff. Stuff that's not OP but Oozes PVE functionality and Rogue style. On that note I think SE would rank in that catagory if they take some, if not all the unmitigated damage from it.
Smoke bomb doesn't seem to trigger many feats or weapons enchantments. In this way it works very similarly to Path of the blade. Unlike path of the blade it does trigger one with the shadows, which would seem to be odd. At it's current damage levels I think this is appropriate. However, at this point in time it is becoming unclear if such effects are intentional or un-intentional. Furthermore, it's going to be perceived with confusion down the road by new players as well. It would be exceedingly nice to have some sort of clarification on this both now, and in the tool-tip for new players later.
The changes still aren't fun. I already wrote a small novel on this.
The DF change might have single-handedly saved the class from complete meh-ness in PvE, but it's still not even remotely on par with... Oh, any other semi-decently geared class that's DPS-oriented.
I mean, yes, the DF change put it on the right track. On training dummies on live I get about 8.8k DPS as current MI Executioner, stealthing when I can; on preview I'm getting about 10.5k DPS as an MI Saboteur using Sly Flourish to apply the debuff and DFing otherwise, stealthing when I hit it during the flurry. Which, yes, completely drains it again and in any real situation would leave me dead in the water... But I've given up on you guys even considering a reduction in the amount of stealth at-wills eat in PvE, let alone getting rid of the godawful thing. Clearly you're not listening on that. It's why I've been inactive in this thread. Why bother?
SWs with less power and less GS than me can still rip bosses to shreds better than I can on Preview.
Executioner remains almost entirely PvP-oriented and has virtually no feats 90% of the time.
Saboteur's features barely work with itself - CD reduction on entering stealth isn't helpful much when you were saving your stealth until after everything came off cooldown because you can't attack otherwise without losing stealth. And good luck staying behind things for the feats that require it, still. Solo this barely happens, in groups you get GWFs and GFs spinning bosses and elites like it's a friggin' pinwheel half the time.
Our cooldowns are ridiculous still. We need INT but we can't get it without sacrificing other things.
We still have pants for survival outside of stealth, but of course we can't remain in stealth, and pretty much all our damage-increasing feats are now entirely based on being in stealth, so CA is almost useless since it does nothing except a little extra damage.
Changing DEX to add a full percent Deflect instead of half is a cute move and I suppose it helps with the DEX you can't avoid, but ultimately pointless. CHA still gives that, and is still currently better. Fail. Make DEX affect our cooldowns instead of INT, or make it affect stealth regen, or give resistance ignored, or affect damage, or something. There's still no reason to take it.
That 'QoL' change to stealth depletion from damage? In my testing, it's pretty much a straight nerf on anything you actually would need to return to stealth against for PvE. DoTs aren't that common in PvE, and TR's defenses are horrible, so I'm now losing more when I do get hit than I was before unless it's meaningless trash I wouldn't need to be in stealth for anyway. All those 10k hits that before just drained a little? Now they drain almost half a bar's worth. That's not a QoL change, that's an annoyance.
Can we at least get an acknowledgment that somebody, somewhere, is aware that the TR walk animation is still missing since July? And that we'd like it back?
Smoke Bomb DoT is a nice change, but I'm not entirely convinced to add it to my bar.
Nothing in these changes has convinced me yet to not just gear up my HR instead. I play my TR on live and I have fun with him, and then I just get depressed and go back to my CW or HR because that playstyle I like is going away.
We haven't gained nearly enough in PvE to justify this mess or the stealth nerf.
No, I don't care about PvP, or PvP balance. I will indeed keep harping on PvE. It's what I play. It's what I enjoy. It's what keeps getting put under a bus in the name of PvP. I'm tired.
It's crazy, but I agree 100% with Naicalus and my feedback corresponds to what he wrote
but I wanted to contribute with more feedback
I already asked but no one replied... is "Broken Armor" (applied by from Sly Flourish) a debuff on enemy's damage resistance? or does it increase damage received regardless of DR?
I want to strongly remark that for PvE, a DR debuff feels useless.
Maybe your intention was to give us these debuffs so that we wouldn't need to stack ~2400 armor penetration in order to reach the 24% DR ignored, but it's difficult to evaluate how much armor penetration we could hold back in order to use stat points on more useful ways (i.e. I trade trading 185 arm. penetration for 185 power by substituting a rank 7 dark enchantment on an offense slot with a rank 7 radiant enchantment);
this is all due to the fact that the debuff is a % of enemy's total and not something easy to quantify for the player.
For example, if it was something like "this debuff contribute to +2% DR ignored" (it adds to the player's DR ignored) then it would be easy to calculate 24% - 2% = 22% -> I need more or less 2200 armor penetration if I apply that buff every time
My suggestion would be to give TR a mechanic that could be REALLY useful to the team...
some sort of bleeding debuff that stacks (again, you could make it work for PvE only if it could be problematic for PvP)
*Mechanic* : with every hit, TR puts on the enemy one stack of "Bleeding Wound"
-at wills put 1 stack of "Bleeding Wound" with every hit
-some encounters put 5 stacks of "Bleeding Wound" (like Lashing Blade, Wicked Reminder)
while others put 1 stack of "Bleeding Wound" with every hit (DoT encounters like PotB and SmokeBomb)
"Bleeding Wound": target receive 0.5% more incoming damage from all sources and deals 0.25% less damage ( so that every ally could benefit from the effect.... maybe add slow/reduced incoming healing / other useful debuffs )
debuff lasts for 8 seconds
and is NOT refreshed with every reapplication (so that the faster you hit the more stacks are put... but it's not so easy to have a maximum debuff on at all times)
can reach a maximum of 40 stacks
multiple rogues in a team could sinergize and make the debuff stack to a total of 80 units
Feedback: Tenacious Conceleament
Should do what it does plus it should give 10% deflection chance and 5% deflection severity. At all times or at LEAST outside of stealth.
Reasoning:
With all due respect, TR class is the only one that feels like you're punished for using your PLAIN class ability. I feel like Stealth is at around 50% effectiveness when not influenced by any feat/class feature etc. If I could, I'd take CWs 4th encounter slot or even DCs Divine mode instead. Instead we have stealth that makes crit happen 100% of the time for duration. But in PvE duration will be pathetic and TR will use stealth only few times while other classes will be able to use their class ability throught all the fight. Why is that?. I can make most of my attack crit with my 50% crit chance already...
TR is the only class that is punished for not WASTING (don't be afraid of this word) a class feature and an off-hand's class feature only to feel like it's class ability is actually worth something. Every other class have their class ability fully functional and can use class features to buff it while TR have to use class features to make class ability barely viable. It's like GWF wouldn't get Determination on damage received but only on damage dealt, like CW with tab encounter at 50% of it's usuall effectivness, like GF not being able to regain Block while receiving damage, only through Encounters/At-wills that actually make you regain Block. Why then TR have to be punished so severely?. Not losing Stealth through damage received should be innate TR feature but since it's not, make at least sure that we don't feel cheated for HAVING to slot a feature that every other class gets by default (so to speak, it's not the very same class feature, you know what i mean).
The problem?. Balancing between PvE (where this change is desperately needed) and PvP (where people would ask for a nerf a second it's listed in patch notes) - as usuall in case of this class...
Survivor: When your HP is below 30% you gain 2/4/6/8/10% increased deflect chance.
can this be buffed to activate at 40% and also give a 5-10% deflect severity. since this requires to be in instant-death range then the feat needs to be noticeable
Mocking Gesture: You gain 2/4/6/8/10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth.
can this be changed to activate whenever we have combat advantage or after leaving stealth. much of those 10 seconds will likely be wasted by approaching the target as we must stealth very far away.
Long Cooldowns:
can we gain a heroic feat like other classes that reduces encounter cooldowns by 2/4/6/8/10%? i feel this kind of change will encourage many rogues to stack something other than INT
Unable to re-stealth in long fights:
can stealth regenerate regardless of the damage we take if we are outside of stealth? many of us feel pigeon-holed into slotting shadow strike, tenacious concealment, and a specific off-hand weapon in order to actually benefit from our tab feature. this is extremely bad for newer rogues who would have to dedicate large amounts of time to get the gear and still might end up needing to waste an encounter slot as well.
Infiltrator's Action: 15 seconds of combat advantage after using a daily
can this be changed to trigger off combat advantage or have dailies that only cost 25-50% ap? it is a very useful feature for more sustained dps but the best i can manage is every 30 seconds if i spam all my encounters regardless of it being appropriate to use them or not (normally this takes even longer to proc). this would also help with another issue of rogues having trouble maintaining combat advantage.
Roll with the Punches and Bloody Brawler:
can these 2 scoundrel feats be doubled to 1/2/3/4/5%? 2.5% is kinda small in comparison to what other trees get. might also give more of an incentive to for other specs to invest extra points in scoundrel
Feedback: Tenacious Conceleament
Should do what it does plus it should give 10% deflection chance and 5% deflection severity. At all times or at LEAST outside of stealth.
Reasoning:
With all due respect, TR class is the only one that feels like you're punished for using your PLAIN class ability. I feel like Stealth is at around 50% effectiveness when not influenced by any feat/class feature etc. If I could, I'd take CWs 4th encounter slot or even DCs Divine mode instead. Instead we have stealth that makes crit happen 100% of the time for duration. But in PvE duration will be pathetic and TR will use stealth only few times while other classes will be able to use their class ability throught all the fight. Why is that?. I can make most of my attack crit with my 50% crit chance already...
TR is the only class that is punished for not WASTING (don't be afraid of this word) a class feature and an off-hand's class feature only to feel like it's class ability is actually worth something. Every other class have their class ability fully functional and can use class features to buff it while TR have to use class features to make class ability barely viable. It's like GWF wouldn't get Determination on damage received but only on damage dealt, like CW with tab encounter at 50% of it's usuall effectivness, like GF not being able to regain Block while receiving damage, only through Encounters/At-wills that actually make you regain Block. Why then TR have to be punished so severely?. Not losing Stealth through damage received should be innate TR feature but since it's not, make at least sure that we don't feel cheated for HAVING to slot a feature that every other class gets by default (so to speak, it's not the very same class feature, you know what i mean).
The problem?. Balancing between PvE (where this change is desperately needed) and PvP (where people would ask for a nerf a second it's listed in patch notes) - as usuall in case of this class...
I feel similar when considering the value of TC for the scoundrel or executioner, but it seems appropriate to me for the saboteur. It is like all paths are treated as having the fully usable stealth of the saboteur. Also in PvE this difference is even more exaggerated to the point that I cannot imagine any situation where I would use TC on a scoundrel or executioner.
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
can stealth regenerate regardless of the damage we take if we are outside of stealth? many of us feel pigeon-holed into slotting shadow strike, tenacious concealment, and a specific off-hand weapon in order to actually benefit from our tab feature. this is extremely bad for newer rogues who would have to dedicate large amounts of time to get the gear and still might end up needing to waste an encounter slot as well.
Hasn't this been addressed (kind of) here:
Shadow of Deminse: This feat no longer requires you to use an encounter power to apply. It may be applied to several targets again. Passively increases stealth regen by 20% and prevents regeneration being stopped.
So, as I understand it, they've decided to make Executioner the only path that doesn't get stealth frozen when taking damage. If anyone has a different interpretation would be keen to hear it. Hope they patch preview today so we can see what's what.
Hasn't this been addressed (kind of) here:
Shadow of Deminse: This feat no longer requires you to use an encounter power to apply. It may be applied to several targets again. Passively increases stealth regen by 20% and prevents regeneration being stopped.
So, as I understand it, they've decided to make Executioner the only path that doesn't get stealth frozen when taking damage. If anyone has a different interpretation would be keen to hear it. Hope they patch preview today so we can see what's what.
Here's the full update in case you missed it (via GC—all spelling mistakes his)
Hey guys, we are making a couple changes to Rogues to improve Execution gameplay and improve the value of Dexterity slightly.
Trickster Rogue: Shadow of Deminse: This feat no longer requires you to use an encounter power to apply. It may be applied to several targets again. Passively increases stealth regen by 20% and prevents regeneration being stopped.
Trickster Rogue: Shadowy Opportunity: Now correctly activates with ranks in this feat, rather than ranks in Ambusher's Haste.
Master Infiltrator: Shocking Execution: Damage increased by 240% but no longer scales with target health.
Master Infiltrator: Shocking Exection: *REWORK*: If you strike a target below 20% HP this daily refunds 100% of the AP used to cast it. This effect can only be triggered once before the Daily will consume AP. Ranking this power up will increase that Health Threshold by 5% each rank.
Trickster Rogue: Dexterity: Rogues now get an additional .5% deflect chance per point of Dex for a total of 1% for each point past 10.
Survivor: When your HP is below 30% you gain 2/4/6/8/10% increased deflect chance.
can this be buffed to activate at 40% and also give a 5-10% deflect severity. since this requires to be in instant-death range then the feat needs to be noticeable
Mocking Gesture: You gain 2/4/6/8/10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth.
can this be changed to activate whenever we have combat advantage or after leaving stealth. much of those 10 seconds will likely be wasted by approaching the target as we must stealth very far away.
Long Cooldowns:
can we gain a heroic feat like other classes that reduces encounter cooldowns by 2/4/6/8/10%? i feel this kind of change will encourage many rogues to stack something other than INT
Unable to re-stealth in long fights:
can stealth regenerate regardless of the damage we take if we are outside of stealth? many of us feel pigeon-holed into slotting shadow strike, tenacious concealment, and a specific off-hand weapon in order to actually benefit from our tab feature. this is extremely bad for newer rogues who would have to dedicate large amounts of time to get the gear and still might end up needing to waste an encounter slot as well.
Infiltrator's Action: 15 seconds of combat advantage after using a daily
can this be changed to trigger off combat advantage or have dailies that only cost 25-50% ap? it is a very useful feature for more sustained dps but the best i can manage is every 30 seconds if i spam all my encounters regardless of it being appropriate to use them or not (normally this takes even longer to proc). this would also help with another issue of rogues having trouble maintaining combat advantage.
Roll with the Punches and Bloody Brawler:
can these 2 scoundrel feats be doubled to 1/2/3/4/5%? 2.5% is kinda small in comparison to what other trees get. might also give more of an incentive to for other specs to invest extra points in scoundrel
I'd like to remind you that there's another spectrum in this game other than PvP. It's called PvE. And PvE is where TR still perform poorly (better than before rework but still poorly compared to other dps oriented classes).
wait i got that, we all know it but you did the greater cheese scenario ever !
lurker assault with first strike and dagger threat? come on man! even shadow strike would kill him xD
wait i got that, we all know it but you did the greater cheese scenario ever !
lurker assault with first strike and dagger threat? come on man! even shadow strike would kill him xD
Even without First Strike, it deals over 3k per tick. Without Lurker's and First Strike it settles in little over 3k, give or take a few hundred. 11 ticks, and that's 33k from 1 at-will. With the announced new Executioner changes (well, technically it's "OLD" Exec, since they're reverting back to first preview patch...), you can add around 8~12k more damage proc from Shadow of Demise.
Since its also an at-will, you can have DHS applied, and then if you see an opportunity, may land a stealthed LB on TOP of an already incoming +30k damage.
Again, since its an at-will, you can have that level of damage dealt to at maximum maybe 3 targets in the area. So, within a span of 15 seconds you will do around +40k damage to 1 enemy, and then around +30k to 2 others. In a matter of 15 seconds you deal over 100k damage total to 3 individual targets.
I think I'm probably be gonna be finishing off that Triple Kill thing finally, and pretty easily at that.
IMO there are 3 ways to deal with this:
(1) tone down the damage to somewhere between first implementation and current
(2) leave the damage as it is, and then shorten the duration to old standards -- maybe 3 ticks for 3 seconds
(3) give 'squishy' classes DoT droppers so it may be used maybe once every 8 seconds or so
Or, alternately, they can just leave it as it is and make me and my fellow Whisperknives the ultimate PuG slaughter tools of PvP, and then receive a huge, excessive nerf-bat in a month or two of Tiamat release.
I think I'll be able to make +30 kills per match now.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
...
Again, since its an at-will, you can have that level of damage dealt to at maximum maybe 3 targets in the area. So, within a span of 15 seconds you will do around +40k damage to 1 enemy, and then around +30k to 2 others. In a matter of 15 seconds you deal over 100k damage total to 3 individual targets.
...
And in PvE, every other class and their pet will have done twice as much in half the time or less. The separation or adjustment needs to be on the PvP side, and not the PvE side (or both adjusted but not adjusted the same).
The TR cannot continue to have it's PvE performance hindered to a level of single target fairness in PvP, nor can the PvP TR be boosted to the level necessary to bring balance to the PvE TR.
No he is right, you can do the whole thing with every path. D.strike do not proc shadowy opportunity but will proc shadow of demise [exe]. With enough int and without dropping encounters every one can perma thanks god. We cant survive otherwise, you know people 1shotting around
Well I was thinking of an MI Scoundrel in particular.
Comments
If the post isn't concerning your personal experience and feedback with the changes on the preview server, it does not belong here.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
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The current changes are reasonable and inline so that rogues can have equal footing with other class. The high damage this class posses is compensated by low def,hp,deflect,movement speed, high cooldowns,slow AP gain and activation of encounters/dailies, poor ablity point design and on top of that a very fragile TAB mechanic, with the above mentioned disadvantages compared to other class TR DESERVES THE DAMAGE POTENTIAL to earn its place in pvp and pve.
Feedback: Disheartening
First of all this is a DOT at-will which cannot stack and moreover it can be deflected,reduced by armor/dr/shield and CLEANSED or out healed by encounter,artifact and potions. Test on dummies doesnt prove anything because what I mentioned above doesnt posses by dummies, in real pvp it cannot hit 90+k damage not unless the target ignored stats that will make him durable meaning it all boils down in setup used, so dont complain about OP damage if you yourself did not invest in defense and build a glass cannon right? So the current damage of disheart is just reasonable and the complaints regarding about TR damage are just lame excuses to be lazy instead of being resourceful
Feedback: Intelligence
Rogues are highly in need of cdr almost all of TR use INT/Recovery not mainly for damage but for survival outside stealth.
Feedback: Deft Strike
I feel this encounter is nice to have if rogues can use this on team members and at reasonable cooldown.
Feedback: Razor Action
I think this has no further use when not using daily and the damage is not noticeable.
Feedback: Vengeance Pursuit
I find the second activation after dagger throw kinda slow because in pvp TRs are just one rotation dead anyway.
Feedback: Impact Shot
As a whisper knife TR I often use this encounter to buy me sometime to cast shadow strike but the activation is slow and the stun knockback isnt impressive or useful so before I can even land it I was already disabled and dead eventually. I also find the reduced damage per stack to a low damage encounter unreasonable so pls a little attention for IS Sir Gentle!
Feedback: Shadow Strike
This encounter means life or death to many TRs both in pve and pvp the activation is slow, damage is very very poor and worst its long cooldown for a utility encounter.
Feedback: Bait and Switch
In pve the taunt isnt noticeable some will just ignore it and in pvp skilled player will never touch this. I feel this encounter needs something more like refilling meter even outside stealth, provides immunity for QoL or this could be a nice aoe cc trap like demolishers in GG(just like to share my thoughts)
Tnx Gentleman!
1) TR class will not be balanced around both PvP and PvE unless these aspects get separated (global trigger like IWD mark - once you're in ANY PvP instance, your skills, feats, everything have their funcionality adjusted)
2) TR class does not excell at anything in particular - every damage dealing class have something that's good at - CWs have damage AND control, SWs have skyhigh damage or can have both good damage AND healing capability, GWF have moderate damage (sadly lower than other strikers) but also survivability (not like GF but also not paperlike like TR), HR have high damage (archery) or damage + extreme survivability - at the moment, TR are apparently too good in PvP and still underperforming in PvE
3) TR scales horribly with gear - my 12k SW could easily do what my 12k TR struggles on horribly and is forced to back off - balance should done around every gear level, new players may be repeled by the TR poor performance when encountered with ease of gameplay of other classes
4) Exe feats could really trigger off combat advantage rather than from stealth since (especially in PvE) it's very difficult to stay in stealth - right now it's basicly 1 stealth meter per mob group, or 2 meters if you slot shadow strike (which then again, with it's low damage and slow/bugging activation hampers damage output of... striker class)
5) Rogue is a class that's supposed to create/disarm traps, make poisons, handicap enemies and just walk up behind them and slit their throat/cut the aorty resulting in enemy being "1shotted". Since that's hard to balance in this game mechanics I really opt for TR to deal damage in series of quick bursts, with stacking effects (Wicked Reminder comes to mind - low CD, moderate damage, stacking effect, debuff in this case). This would prevent 1shotting in PvP scenario (since you'd have to stick to the target long enough to deal serious damage, which will not be easy with mod 5 stealth change) and would help in PvE where Rogue should always pick off the biggest <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in the room, again, not creating a 1-second-boss-erase scenario (the longer you stay on boss and maintain your stacks, the more potent your damage is - something different yet similar to SWs damage over time idea). For instance, Lashing Blade does X damage with a let's say 7s cooldown. TR cast it and there's a trigger placed on a mob and if you cast Lashing Blade in the next 8s or 9s, your Lashing Blade will deal X+Z% damage leaving trigger again - stacking *number* times. Same for other mainly damaging abilities.
I second to this a little attention here please thank you
When "One with the Shadows" is active the Stealth Meter isn't refilled when using Path of the Blade. I tried it several times on the target dummies in Dread Ring just to be sure I didn't miss the uptime of "One with the Shadows". The other damaging Encounter Powers seem to work correctly with this feat.
(I'm sorry, if this has already been reported -> 125 pages are just too much
The damage of TRs on preview is way to high considering the fact that perma stealth is still possible.
I dont get it how this thread became so infested with biased informations, and why players of the class are always just trying to improve the performance of a class, instead of really balancing it.
Perma stealth is nearly as easy to get as on live, but the damage even with perma setup is crazy:
- disheartening does very high dot dmg and doesnt reduce stealth
- Gloaming cut even refills stealth, and with new dodges of TRs, u can pretty easy hit 5-10k+ with atwill and then retreat to stealth
Wasnt the whole purpose of this module to rework TR, so that his dmg improves but not without the drawback of not having perma stealth? So, that failed. Whatever people in this thread are claiming or tryinig to troll, all serious PVP TRs are still perma, but doing huge dmg.
What we have is: TR is best nodeholder (because of perma stealth) and best node clearer (because of unequaled burst and even dot dmg) and even good utility because of his mobility in stealth and so good rotating to other nodes.
I was never against perma stealth, as I am not against a TR who does insane burst dmg. But BOTH AT THE SAME TIME?
Right now, nobody can kill a BiS and wellplayed TR on preview while he can kill u no matter what.
deft strike dmg is a lil bit low, it should be like 25% dmg
The changes still aren't fun. I already wrote a small novel on this.
The DF change might have single-handedly saved the class from complete meh-ness in PvE, but it's still not even remotely on par with... Oh, any other semi-decently geared class that's DPS-oriented.
I mean, yes, the DF change put it on the right track. On training dummies on live I get about 8.8k DPS as current MI Executioner, stealthing when I can; on preview I'm getting about 10.5k DPS as an MI Saboteur using Sly Flourish to apply the debuff and DFing otherwise, stealthing when I hit it during the flurry. Which, yes, completely drains it again and in any real situation would leave me dead in the water... But I've given up on you guys even considering a reduction in the amount of stealth at-wills eat in PvE, let alone getting rid of the godawful thing. Clearly you're not listening on that. It's why I've been inactive in this thread. Why bother?
SWs with less power and less GS than me can still rip bosses to shreds better than I can on Preview.
Executioner remains almost entirely PvP-oriented and has virtually no feats 90% of the time.
Saboteur's features barely work with itself - CD reduction on entering stealth isn't helpful much when you were saving your stealth until after everything came off cooldown because you can't attack otherwise without losing stealth. And good luck staying behind things for the feats that require it, still. Solo this barely happens, in groups you get GWFs and GFs spinning bosses and elites like it's a friggin' pinwheel half the time.
Our cooldowns are ridiculous still. We need INT but we can't get it without sacrificing other things.
We still have pants for survival outside of stealth, but of course we can't remain in stealth, and pretty much all our damage-increasing feats are now entirely based on being in stealth, so CA is almost useless since it does nothing except a little extra damage.
Changing DEX to add a full percent Deflect instead of half is a cute move and I suppose it helps with the DEX you can't avoid, but ultimately pointless. CHA still gives that, and is still currently better. Fail. Make DEX affect our cooldowns instead of INT, or make it affect stealth regen, or give resistance ignored, or affect damage, or something. There's still no reason to take it.
That 'QoL' change to stealth depletion from damage? In my testing, it's pretty much a straight nerf on anything you actually would need to return to stealth against for PvE. DoTs aren't that common in PvE, and TR's defenses are horrible, so I'm now losing more when I do get hit than I was before unless it's meaningless trash I wouldn't need to be in stealth for anyway. All those 10k hits that before just drained a little? Now they drain almost half a bar's worth. That's not a QoL change, that's an annoyance.
Can we at least get an acknowledgment that somebody, somewhere, is aware that the TR walk animation is still missing since July? And that we'd like it back?
Smoke Bomb DoT is a nice change, but I'm not entirely convinced to add it to my bar.
Nothing in these changes has convinced me yet to not just gear up my HR instead. I play my TR on live and I have fun with him, and then I just get depressed and go back to my CW or HR because that playstyle I like is going away.
We haven't gained nearly enough in PvE to justify this mess or the stealth nerf.
No, I don't care about PvP, or PvP balance. I will indeed keep harping on PvE. It's what I play. It's what I enjoy. It's what keeps getting put under a bus in the name of PvP. I'm tired.
Now people are saying DHS is OP, and sry Kweassa but your going to have to own up to that one.
Funny thing is, I cautioned about buffing DHS for PVP concerns immediately after this on page 19.
Blood Bath having auto-crit and SO procs happened on day 1 of the M5 changes in preview. I reported the SO procs as a PVP issue on page 46, how come no one said anything or backed me up then? NOW your saying TR is OP over a disscusion in the past few pages from an issue that existed day one. I'm going to fall off my chair laughing if BB base damage gets nerfed and it's SO synergy stays the same.
Hopefully we can see more changes like dodge roll improvement, DOT smoke bomb, and flurry buff. Stuff that's not OP but Oozes PVE functionality and Rogue style. On that note I think SE would rank in that catagory if they take some, if not all the unmitigated damage from it.
Smoke bomb doesn't seem to trigger many feats or weapons enchantments. In this way it works very similarly to Path of the blade. Unlike path of the blade it does trigger one with the shadows, which would seem to be odd. At it's current damage levels I think this is appropriate. However, at this point in time it is becoming unclear if such effects are intentional or un-intentional. Furthermore, it's going to be perceived with confusion down the road by new players as well. It would be exceedingly nice to have some sort of clarification on this both now, and in the tool-tip for new players later.
but I wanted to contribute with more feedback
I already asked but no one replied... is "Broken Armor" (applied by from Sly Flourish) a debuff on enemy's damage resistance? or does it increase damage received regardless of DR?
I want to strongly remark that for PvE, a DR debuff feels useless.
Maybe your intention was to give us these debuffs so that we wouldn't need to stack ~2400 armor penetration in order to reach the 24% DR ignored, but it's difficult to evaluate how much armor penetration we could hold back in order to use stat points on more useful ways (i.e. I trade trading 185 arm. penetration for 185 power by substituting a rank 7 dark enchantment on an offense slot with a rank 7 radiant enchantment);
this is all due to the fact that the debuff is a % of enemy's total and not something easy to quantify for the player.
For example, if it was something like "this debuff contribute to +2% DR ignored" (it adds to the player's DR ignored) then it would be easy to calculate 24% - 2% = 22% -> I need more or less 2200 armor penetration if I apply that buff every time
My suggestion would be to give TR a mechanic that could be REALLY useful to the team...
some sort of bleeding debuff that stacks (again, you could make it work for PvE only if it could be problematic for PvP)
*Mechanic* : with every hit, TR puts on the enemy one stack of "Bleeding Wound"
-at wills put 1 stack of "Bleeding Wound" with every hit
-some encounters put 5 stacks of "Bleeding Wound" (like Lashing Blade, Wicked Reminder)
while others put 1 stack of "Bleeding Wound" with every hit (DoT encounters like PotB and SmokeBomb)
"Bleeding Wound": target receive 0.5% more incoming damage from all sources and deals 0.25% less damage ( so that every ally could benefit from the effect.... maybe add slow/reduced incoming healing / other useful debuffs )
debuff lasts for 8 seconds
and is NOT refreshed with every reapplication (so that the faster you hit the more stacks are put... but it's not so easy to have a maximum debuff on at all times)
can reach a maximum of 40 stacks
multiple rogues in a team could sinergize and make the debuff stack to a total of 80 units
Should do what it does plus it should give 10% deflection chance and 5% deflection severity. At all times or at LEAST outside of stealth.
Reasoning:
With all due respect, TR class is the only one that feels like you're punished for using your PLAIN class ability. I feel like Stealth is at around 50% effectiveness when not influenced by any feat/class feature etc. If I could, I'd take CWs 4th encounter slot or even DCs Divine mode instead. Instead we have stealth that makes crit happen 100% of the time for duration. But in PvE duration will be pathetic and TR will use stealth only few times while other classes will be able to use their class ability throught all the fight. Why is that?. I can make most of my attack crit with my 50% crit chance already...
TR is the only class that is punished for not WASTING (don't be afraid of this word) a class feature and an off-hand's class feature only to feel like it's class ability is actually worth something. Every other class have their class ability fully functional and can use class features to buff it while TR have to use class features to make class ability barely viable. It's like GWF wouldn't get Determination on damage received but only on damage dealt, like CW with tab encounter at 50% of it's usuall effectivness, like GF not being able to regain Block while receiving damage, only through Encounters/At-wills that actually make you regain Block. Why then TR have to be punished so severely?. Not losing Stealth through damage received should be innate TR feature but since it's not, make at least sure that we don't feel cheated for HAVING to slot a feature that every other class gets by default (so to speak, it's not the very same class feature, you know what i mean).
The problem?. Balancing between PvE (where this change is desperately needed) and PvP (where people would ask for a nerf a second it's listed in patch notes) - as usuall in case of this class...
can this be buffed to activate at 40% and also give a 5-10% deflect severity. since this requires to be in instant-death range then the feat needs to be noticeable
Mocking Gesture: You gain 2/4/6/8/10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth.
can this be changed to activate whenever we have combat advantage or after leaving stealth. much of those 10 seconds will likely be wasted by approaching the target as we must stealth very far away.
Long Cooldowns:
can we gain a heroic feat like other classes that reduces encounter cooldowns by 2/4/6/8/10%? i feel this kind of change will encourage many rogues to stack something other than INT
Unable to re-stealth in long fights:
can stealth regenerate regardless of the damage we take if we are outside of stealth? many of us feel pigeon-holed into slotting shadow strike, tenacious concealment, and a specific off-hand weapon in order to actually benefit from our tab feature. this is extremely bad for newer rogues who would have to dedicate large amounts of time to get the gear and still might end up needing to waste an encounter slot as well.
Infiltrator's Action: 15 seconds of combat advantage after using a daily
can this be changed to trigger off combat advantage or have dailies that only cost 25-50% ap? it is a very useful feature for more sustained dps but the best i can manage is every 30 seconds if i spam all my encounters regardless of it being appropriate to use them or not (normally this takes even longer to proc). this would also help with another issue of rogues having trouble maintaining combat advantage.
Roll with the Punches and Bloody Brawler:
can these 2 scoundrel feats be doubled to 1/2/3/4/5%? 2.5% is kinda small in comparison to what other trees get. might also give more of an incentive to for other specs to invest extra points in scoundrel
I feel similar when considering the value of TC for the scoundrel or executioner, but it seems appropriate to me for the saboteur. It is like all paths are treated as having the fully usable stealth of the saboteur. Also in PvE this difference is even more exaggerated to the point that I cannot imagine any situation where I would use TC on a scoundrel or executioner.
Hasn't this been addressed (kind of) here:
Shadow of Deminse: This feat no longer requires you to use an encounter power to apply. It may be applied to several targets again. Passively increases stealth regen by 20% and prevents regeneration being stopped.
So, as I understand it, they've decided to make Executioner the only path that doesn't get stealth frozen when taking damage. If anyone has a different interpretation would be keen to hear it. Hope they patch preview today so we can see what's what.
when did that happen? o.o
Nov 15th, 1:12 AM GMT +9:00 --- it's not up yet
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Here's the full update in case you missed it (via GC—all spelling mistakes his)
Hey guys, we are making a couple changes to Rogues to improve Execution gameplay and improve the value of Dexterity slightly.
Trickster Rogue: Shadow of Deminse: This feat no longer requires you to use an encounter power to apply. It may be applied to several targets again. Passively increases stealth regen by 20% and prevents regeneration being stopped.
Trickster Rogue: Shadowy Opportunity: Now correctly activates with ranks in this feat, rather than ranks in Ambusher's Haste.
Master Infiltrator: Shocking Execution: Damage increased by 240% but no longer scales with target health.
Master Infiltrator: Shocking Exection: *REWORK*: If you strike a target below 20% HP this daily refunds 100% of the AP used to cast it. This effect can only be triggered once before the Daily will consume AP. Ranking this power up will increase that Health Threshold by 5% each rank.
Trickster Rogue: Dexterity: Rogues now get an additional .5% deflect chance per point of Dex for a total of 1% for each point past 10.
feedback
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du_4yi5d9ZQ&feature=youtu.be
i don't think trs need more buffs...what about you?
The video you linked is a different path than the one he is talking about.
I'd like to remind you that there's another spectrum in this game other than PvP. It's called PvE. And PvE is where TR still perform poorly (better than before rework but still poorly compared to other dps oriented classes).
The path he is talking about has zero problems in doing the same.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
DHS is totally cool. Doesn't need any nerfs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qba3lkCywc
Not.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
wait i got that, we all know it but you did the greater cheese scenario ever !
lurker assault with first strike and dagger threat? come on man! even shadow strike would kill him xD
Even without First Strike, it deals over 3k per tick. Without Lurker's and First Strike it settles in little over 3k, give or take a few hundred. 11 ticks, and that's 33k from 1 at-will. With the announced new Executioner changes (well, technically it's "OLD" Exec, since they're reverting back to first preview patch...), you can add around 8~12k more damage proc from Shadow of Demise.
Since its also an at-will, you can have DHS applied, and then if you see an opportunity, may land a stealthed LB on TOP of an already incoming +30k damage.
Again, since its an at-will, you can have that level of damage dealt to at maximum maybe 3 targets in the area. So, within a span of 15 seconds you will do around +40k damage to 1 enemy, and then around +30k to 2 others. In a matter of 15 seconds you deal over 100k damage total to 3 individual targets.
I think I'm probably be gonna be finishing off that Triple Kill thing finally, and pretty easily at that.
IMO there are 3 ways to deal with this:
(1) tone down the damage to somewhere between first implementation and current
(2) leave the damage as it is, and then shorten the duration to old standards -- maybe 3 ticks for 3 seconds
(3) give 'squishy' classes DoT droppers so it may be used maybe once every 8 seconds or so
Or, alternately, they can just leave it as it is and make me and my fellow Whisperknives the ultimate PuG slaughter tools of PvP, and then receive a huge, excessive nerf-bat in a month or two of Tiamat release.
I think I'll be able to make +30 kills per match now.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And in PvE, every other class and their pet will have done twice as much in half the time or less. The separation or adjustment needs to be on the PvP side, and not the PvE side (or both adjusted but not adjusted the same).
The TR cannot continue to have it's PvE performance hindered to a level of single target fairness in PvP, nor can the PvP TR be boosted to the level necessary to bring balance to the PvE TR.
Well I was thinking of an MI Scoundrel in particular.