That's the build I'm currently running. My only complaint with it is soloing some of the lair bosses (Jail warden in particular). Scoundrel/Scoundrel hybrid can keep up with mobs and multiple HDs' worth of creatures, but when adds spawn mid-fight, disrupting your stun rotation, then you're toast. (usually only a problem when trying to burn a 9+HD boss or mini-boss. scoundrel needs to clear and drop, not stay soloing)
Oddly I've had no real problem with either of the WoD lair bosses. The encounter loadout I've been using is Dazing/VP/Blitz and I tend to use Blitz defensively. I have a high enough Crit chance that I regularly proc Concussive Strike on the whole group using Blitz, which buys me breathing room. I've also got a higher than normal recovery so my encounters cycle relatively quickly.
I changed tactics to target the strongest mob first. Stealth, run in, use VP to proc Skull Cracker, DiS from stealth for the auto-crit, unload as many CoS blades as I can get away with, and start dodging. Keeping mobile is critical and WK allows you to do that while still DPSing. The odd Blitz helps keep mobs at bay.
It works until you hit an encounter with multiple spawns at short intervals. You just can't clear fast enough as a Scoundrel and you get overwhelmed.
stealth continue to feel luckster and without any tools to naturally refill it i dont even feel the need to use it.
When in stealth i have basically two option:
throw 3 arlt will hitting for 10k
Or
Using an encounter
After this bye stealth virtually forever if i keep in combat.
In the best scenario stealth uptime is less than 5 per cent leading tree like executioner to basically play with no feats (they pretty much work in stealth)
This is not just an executioner problem.
All the path required pretty much to slot shadow strike losing one encounter slot.
Stealth as now is just a crappy tab.
If at will drains it why they cant refill it out of stealth????
The overall best path is saboteur. It has nothing wrong but shadow strike proccing one with the shadows which is an utterly no sense.
Scoundrel feels fun but needs way more deflect and way more life steal.
That feat around 10 deflect under 30 per cent HP makes no sense at all: as a TR you either survive or get 1shotted.
Over all what i hate is that stealth is less than a side disc in TR dinner. A side disc that you only consume once every meal without slotting shadow strike. I would like to see gwf using shadow-unstoppable or their unstoppable bar depleting upon taking damage and dealing damage. Would be fair right?
I cant say the job isnt good but something is stealth need to be revised.
Base time prolonged, bar steady refilling upon dealing damage.
It looks clearly like command on begun-destroy TR tab. Then permission to make other changes. Instead of fixing important things as ban all hard target users and disable it from game once and forever, they simply helped cheaters even more. Well, each time i heard unfair requests to destry stealth i never saw anyone saying to disable unstoppable of gwf, to disable 6 skills of HR or disable shield of GF and control of CW skills. Why no one come up with this idea if they come up with same ridiculous idea to destroy stealth?
This whole rework of stealth is after all evidence that devs don't know TR problems and they simply fulfilled wish of hypocrites crying to destroy stealth.
Major problems with TR tab
-depletes on making dmg when most feats depend on making dmg from stealth
-depletes on taking dmg
-in combat when TR is under attack all time it is not possible to get stealth without slotting one encounter, in result TR has one less encounter than any other class just to use tab as any other class which don't need it
-TR need tab more than ANY OTHER class because they have no defence without stealth and any other class in duel has more survivability and damage(except DC)
-with stealth depleting TR needs to use itc to survive and it means they have one encounter less
Overall TR has 1 encounter left while any other class has 3 because any other class has survivability that TR does not without itc and any other class has tab which does not need encounters to work as TR needs shadow strike.
That is clearly reason that TR tab is not usable it is only problem which should be solved by fixing useless encounters of TR: impact shot, smoke bomb and make TR as HR with 6 encounters. It clearly shows that during 1,5 year you could not fix problems with stealth but you only created more problems.
-
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
Suggestion: Bait and Switch (@Gentleman Crush) It would be nice ice bait and switch could be used while under CC (control effects).
Using bait and switch under control effects would leave our clone in the control effect but we will roll away with a 2 second immunity.
Feedback: Bait and Switch
In its current state, bait and switch is not very effective in pvp and pve. Please consider the above change. (It will be similar to gwf unstoppable mechanic for tr, but to allow them to escape CC instead of tank damage) Thanks!
I always thought this would be excellent as well, it works very well for the imagery and solves an issue by possibly moving our cc immunity powers away from the paragon paths. I assume there is a reason they have never done this though i dont know what i t is.
to be honest i think pve some of the powers issues would be solved by an aggro shift of all the Tr's aggro to tghe dummy. However I have used it pretty effectivly for its action point gain. In tuern if it gets hit by all the mobs in a group or one of the golems its an instant full Ap bar. ive done whirlwind of blades back to back within 3 seconds on live using it.
If it had the aggro shift it would pretty much be awesome in pve i think.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I always thought this would be excellent as well, it works very well for the imagery and solves an issue by possibly moving our cc immunity powers away from the paragon paths. I assume there is a reason they have never done this though i dont know what i t is.
to be honest i think pve some of the powers issues would be solved by an aggro shift of all the Tr's aggro to tghe dummy. However I have used it pretty effectivly for its action point gain. In tuern if it gets hit by all the mobs in a group or one of the golems its an instant full Ap bar. ive done whirlwind of blades back to back within 3 seconds on live using it.
If it had the aggro shift it would pretty much be awesome in pve i think.
i hope it happens
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
0
mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited October 2014
I honestly doubt it. If it were going to change i expect it would have happened already as part of the mod 5 changes. though it surprised me hat they didnt change the "use in stealth" but for BnS for mod 5. My guess is they view the powers ACtion point gain as its primary purpose or something that. I really havent a clue though i assume they are aware how its generally used in the game. Which is why i thought it would be changed for mod 5
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited October 2014
I swear that back in open beta stuff did attack my dummy. I used it all the time as a decoy and fought things out of stealth because... well, it was open beta and I was levelling my first TR, and he was really squishy, and I didn't really have any of the other defensive powers yet.
Something either broke or got changed under the hood.
Edit: Actually... don't y'all remember that one risk of soling tougher content with a stealth build was that if you couldn't keep up stealth without using the dummy, things would attack it and you'd get thrown out of stealth from the AoE damage? (But the AP gain was lovely.)
Really, it's not the dummy I used to know and love (and sometimes hate because I was on fire).
I seem to have tracked it down to the fact that it mostly happens when at some point certain AoE encounters are activated. I did see it happening with single-target encounters but it is very rare, but with AoE encounters of PotB and Smoke Bomb, it happens frequently. Didn't see it happening with Blitz, though.
Apparently this is happening often with scoundrels - I'm having the same issue. Haven't tried SB from stealth, but from outside stealth, it's dazing me, negating the whole effect of the power.
Also, I noticed the average time for MI was longer. Any particular reason?
Not having had the time to sit through all the videos, but having played both, a big PvE advantage the WK has over the MI, even in the current live build, is the ability to deal a significant amount of DoT to multiple targets at once. MI is restricted to damaging one target at a time, most of the time. Kweassa recently touched on that in this thread as well.
Yes, VP was one of the encounters used in what I did see.
It's good to see people finally coming forth with how they are faring with the new changes. All of these are good source of information for those who have not yet had the chance to test out the new TR. Let's try to be more "constructive" in every meaning of the word by giving our developers as much back up material and reference as possible.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Let's try to be more "constructive" in every meaning of the word by giving our developers as much back up material and reference as possible.
In the PvP i must admit it feels quite squishy to be TR. At the first match he instantly got me in his rotation and i was dead before i get out of it. The second match (recorded) i only won because of the Daily, the third match (i missed to record) i won again, no daily only gloaming cut at will but only a few hits are really hard but i think that the most player will adapt, because if i run out of stealth i only have dodge till i can run again in stealth and it can be over by any mistake i make. I openly think saboteur can still work in PvP if the other player will learn him know.
In PvE as Saboteur it's pretty the same. In the second i am out of stealth and directly attacked (trained dogs and barbarians in icewinddale) i am over. If i keep in stealth all is okay but every void can be my end. I think it's a good exchange of mechanic and feel good as TR-Saboteur. I hope the Videos show it. @Devs: It seems the Damage of the Glyphs is broken (mighty red dragon) the damage goes up to 4-5K. Stealth will not be proper replenish by one with the shadows. And Wicked Reminder starts to progg if i use shortly after an at-will power.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
CoS has the special effect of each consecutive shots landed increasing the damage of the next
DF has the special effect of CC immunity, 100% deflection, and bleeds for extra damage
GC has the special effect of 0 stealth depletion, stealth regen with a kill, and increasing damage in reverse proportion to target HP
DHS is a persistent DoT attack that can be applied to multipel targets
SF is a... um... errrrr....
What does SF have...?
NOTHING
Suggestion
Sly Flourish now attacks 5 times in the same timeframe as the 4 attacks made currently in Live
(※ Not actual values )
* for example, if SF attacks 4 times each with 25 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 1s to follow through
* then let the new SF attack 5 times each with 10 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 0.8s
* summary: 1 more attack in the same time frame, but overall around 50% damage decrease
let each hit of SF provide a stacking buff(max 5 stacks) for 2s (and refreshes with new stack) that provide a 2% increase in deflect chance and 1% increase in deflect severity (additive)
if all 5 attacks from the SF combo is hit in a single chain, then let it provide 10% extra deflection chance and 5% extra deflect severity for the next 5s
Concept behind the Suggestion
(1) At first I've thought of stealth refill.. maybe 2% per attack. But then I realized this would make the current Sab builds even more powerful, as well as Scoundrel builds that can CC a target long enough to land the attacks easily.
(2) Many people in PvE are having difficulties in adjusting to the new mechanic, which requires you to actively use encounters from stealth for damage -- which leaves you to survive out of stealth until the next stealth rotation is made possible.
(3) My experiences with MMOGs tells me a 'reliable' threshold value for squishy classes to use evasion/parry/deflect type of mechanics as a main form of defense, is 60%. Once the evade/parry/deflect reaches 60% then there is noticeable increase in survival. People start to get the impression that your character is actually evading all those attacks efficiently.
(4) High deflect builds for TRs currently simmer around 40% deflection. Some extreme cases can get it upto nearly 50%, but the most common/average cases it would be something around 37~43%.
(5) So, if we "conceptualize" what the at-wills are, and what they are for:
CoS - ranged harassment, but decent source of damage if all attacks hit in a stream
DF - a high damage tool, slow to activate but powerful if connects
GC - a extremely slow-but-powerful attack
DHS - high damage, but needs time to reach full damage
...all of the above, are offensive in nature. But currently people feel TR still lacks defense, and especially with the new changes leaving the TR to fight out of stealth more often (or.. go Sab and perma-GC).
Then would it not be OK to have ONE of the at-will powers become defensive in its nature? Something that could fill the need for more defense, but not at too strong levels, just enough to provide meaningful, short bursts of defense when it is in trouble?
Obviously, I do not want Slu Flourish to be so powerful as to something you can just keep swinging, but still strong enough to keep you alive in the midst of multiple mobs or enemy players.
If what I envision works out, I expect it to work out in the following manner:
(1) You've built your TR for defense, with high deflection. 40% base.
(2) When you are out of stealth, you start swinging SF.
(3) While you continue the attack, your deflection is increased to 60%, defseverity to 85%
(4) If you make use of Mocking Gesture as a scoundrel, momentarily your deflect will reach an amazing 70%
(5) but the damage you deal is weak. Damage wise SF will be the lowest at-will of them all by far
So basically, this will be a defensive at-will which will significantly increase your life expectancy while you're surrounded by mobs, until your crucial encounters recharge
However, even if it is a powerful defense, it is still chance-based, also the damage is very low
This is to encourage people to use it as a tool to momentarily make up the need to survive, and then move out of it when you are ready to attack strong again.
I don't want people to just lazily park in front of a mob group and press down one-button to kill everything easily... something which was possible in Live -- the stealth + at-will spamming. Even if you're safe, your damage is so low that it's going to take forever to kill a strong mob... also it's deflect -- it might fail at some point
So:
(1) it is a form of active defense, not a passive one like stealth. You need to keep hitting to make it work
(2) a significant increase in survival, but still a chance it might fail. You don't want to abuse it too much
(3) not very much worth as an offensive power. You can't kill something easily and still stay safe with one button
Might be interesting to see how it works out.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
FEEDBACK: SLY FLOURISH
***SNIP***
Might be interesting to see how it works out.
I really love the direction you are thinking for this... perhaps something a little simpler:
Sly Flourish Suggestion
Each critical hit with Sly Flourish adds 5% deflect chance (max 4 stacks)
Initial stack last 2 seconds, plus 1 second for each additional stack
Now, even at low levels the deflect boost will have a noticeable effect. If it feels too strong, give the max deflection from Sly Flourish a cap, for instance, Sly Flourish can't take the total deflect chance above 70%.
Campaign - Trail of the Imaskarcana (NWS-DMFG77QOF)
CoS has the special effect of each consecutive shots landed increasing the damage of the next
DF has the special effect of CC immunity, 100% deflection, and bleeds for extra damage
GC has the special effect of 0 stealth depletion, stealth regen with a kill, and increasing damage in reverse proportion to target HP
DHS is a persistent DoT attack that can be applied to multipel targets
SF is a... um... errrrr....
What does SF have...?
NOTHING
Suggestion
Sly Flourish now attacks 5 times in the same timeframe as the 4 attacks made currently in Live
(※ Not actual values )
* for example, if SF attacks 4 times each with 25 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 1s to follow through
* then let the new SF attack 5 times each with 10 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 0.8s
* summary: 1 more attack in the same time frame, but overall around 50% damage decrease
let each hit of SF provide a stacking buff(max 5 stacks) for 2s (and refreshes with new stack) that provide a 2% increase in deflect chance and 1% increase in deflect severity (additive)
if all 5 attacks from the SF combo is hit in a single chain, then let it provide 10% extra deflection chance and 5% extra deflect severity for the next 5s
Concept behind the Suggestion
(1) At first I've thought of stealth refill.. maybe 2% per attack. But then I realized this would make the current Sab builds even more powerful, as well as Scoundrel builds that can CC a target long enough to land the attacks easily.
(2) Many people in PvE are having difficulties in adjusting to the new mechanic, which requires you to actively use encounters from stealth for damage -- which leaves you to survive out of stealth until the next stealth rotation is made possible.
(3) My experiences with MMOGs tells me a 'reliable' threshold value for squishy classes to use evasion/parry/deflect type of mechanics as a main form of defense, is 60%. Once the evade/parry/deflect reaches 60% then there is noticeable increase in survival. People start to get the impression that your character is actually evading all those attacks efficiently.
(4) High deflect builds for TRs currently simmer around 40% deflection. Some extreme cases can get it upto nearly 50%, but the most common/average cases it would be something around 37~43%.
(5) So, if we "conceptualize" what the at-wills are, and what they are for:
CoS - ranged harassment, but decent source of damage if all attacks hit in a stream
DF - a high damage tool, slow to activate but powerful if connects
GC - a extremely slow-but-powerful attack
DHS - high damage, but needs time to reach full damage
...all of the above, are offensive in nature. But currently people feel TR still lacks defense, and especially with the new changes leaving the TR to fight out of stealth more often (or.. go Sab and perma-GC).
Then would it not be OK to have ONE of the at-will powers become defensive in its nature? Something that could fill the need for more defense, but not at too strong levels, just enough to provide meaningful, short bursts of defense when it is in trouble?
Obviously, I do not want Slu Flourish to be so powerful as to something you can just keep swinging, but still strong enough to keep you alive in the midst of multiple mobs or enemy players.
If what I envision works out, I expect it to work out in the following manner:
(1) You've built your TR for defense, with high deflection. 40% base.
(2) When you are out of stealth, you start swinging SF.
(3) While you continue the attack, your deflection is increased to 60%, defseverity to 85%
(4) If you make use of Mocking Gesture as a scoundrel, momentarily your deflect will reach an amazing 70%
(5) but the damage you deal is weak. Damage wise SF will be the lowest at-will of them all by far
So basically, this will be a defensive at-will which will significantly increase your life expectancy while you're surrounded by mobs, until your crucial encounters recharge
However, even if it is a powerful defense, it is still chance-based, also the damage is very low
This is to encourage people to use it as a tool to momentarily make up the need to survive, and then move out of it when you are ready to attack strong again.
I don't want people to just lazily park in front of a mob group and press down one-button to kill everything easily... something which was possible in Live -- the stealth + at-will spamming. Even if you're safe, your damage is so low that it's going to take forever to kill a strong mob... also it's deflect -- it might fail at some point
So:
(1) it is a form of active defense, not a passive one like stealth. You need to keep hitting to make it work
(2) a significant increase in survival, but still a chance it might fail. You don't want to abuse it too much
(3) not very much worth as an offensive power. You can't kill something easily and still stay safe with one button
Might be interesting to see how it works out.
I like it, i did suggest something with sly flourish a few times where you gain deflect in a stack etc...
I like that others see the need for our at-wills need a once over to evaluate usefulness.
May I respectfully share my thoughts and ideas to the upcoming changes for the TR class. This are some of the things I noticed based on my experience for a year playing a TR in NW. *slow for a leather user
*lacks tools to survive (compared to HR with 6 encounters, choice of self buff, self healing with high deflect without sacrificing offense for defense. other class is self explanatory)
*some feats are inferior to other class (other class's feats affects 2-3 encounters with big %)
Feedback: Bait and Switch I feel this encounter needs some attention. I would like to suggest Bait and Switch: Breaks cc and provides 3 seconds stealth (does not deplete stealth meter)
Feedback: Smoke Bomb With the current changes in Dazing Strike this high level encounter is out tiered. I would like to suggest Smoke Bomb: increases deflection chance by 15% while inside the smoke with a persisting effect of 4 secs after leaving the aoe. Smoke Bomb: applies a 5% slow and 5% of current hp as piercing damage.
Feedback: Duelist Flurry The current changes in stealth and the inability to stun or prone makes this At-will hard to use in pvp. I would like to suggest Duelist Flurry: 3rd strike to be usable after the 2nd strike for 4 seconds. Provides 100% deflect chance during the 3rd strike.
Feedback: Impact Shot I do not understand why a three charge encounter with low damage will have a diminishing damage per charge. May I respectfully suggest that all three charges will have the same damage and have a 20% chance to stun for 2 seconds or a 4 secs root because TR is the only class that does not have a stun or prone.
Something else i really dont understand is the bonus for putting points into shadow strike:
The overall damage is so low that putting more than one point into it is useless. Id like to see the animation speed for shadow strike increased but im not sure what else to replace the mediocre 10% damage increase.
May I respectfully share my thoughts and ideas to the upcoming changes for the TR class. This are some of the things I noticed based on my experience for a year playing a TR in NW. *slow for a leather user
*lacks tools to survive (compared to HR with 6 encounters, choice of self buff, self healing with high deflect without sacrificing offense for defense. other class is self explanatory)
*some feats are inferior to other class (other class's feats affects 2-3 encounters with big %)
Feedback: Bait and Switch I feel this encounter needs some attention. I would like to suggest Bait and Switch: Breaks cc and provides 3 seconds stealth (does not deplete stealth meter)
Feedback: Smoke Bomb With the current changes in Dazing Strike this high level encounter is out tiered. I would like to suggest Smoke Bomb: increases deflection chance by 15% while inside the smoke with a persisting effect of 4 secs after leaving the aoe. Smoke Bomb: applies a 5% slow and 5% of current hp as piercing damage.
Feedback: Duelist Flurry The current changes in stealth and the inability to stun or prone makes this At-will hard to use in pvp. I would like to suggest Duelist Flurry: 3rd strike to be usable after the 2nd strike for 4 seconds. Provides 100% deflect chance during the 3rd strike.
Feedback: Impact Shot I do not understand why a three charge encounter with low damage will have a diminishing damage per charge. May I respectfully suggest that all three charges will have the same damage and have a 20% chance to stun for 2 seconds or a 4 secs root because TR is the only class that does not have a stun or prone.
thing i hate about DF is that dodges cancel the wind up
Something else i really dont understand is the bonus for putting points into shadow strike:
The overall damage is so low that putting more than one point into it is useless. Id like to see the animation speed for shadow strike increased but im not sure what else to replace the mediocre 10% damage increase.
I agree mate we have this encounter in our bar just to get one stealth bar and a daze instead of a stun for a slow encounter, compared to other class a nuke with a cc in one encounter or HR got 1 buff and 1 cc in one encounter, same goes with smoke bomb we get a aoe daze with no damage and slow/stun so we can connect DF/SF after the encounter we should get at least a self buff for smoke bomb so we can use it to engage or disengage
Yeah, I'm running as MI now, so there's no real DoT to keep going while I'm dodging and smokebomb is currently broken... I'm considering playtesting WK now.
Last night I swapped out Blitz for Shadow Strike and that made a big change for the better. It can be used both defensively and offensively and as it procs Skull Cracker you have a window to unload a follow up attack before stealthing if necessary.
Still couldn't finish the Patrol HE with the Drake Rider without dying though. Once he gets off the drake there are just too many strong and fast attacks coming in and I still run out of dodges/stealth at critical moments. I feel like Dodge and/or Deflect needs a minor boost. Otherwise I think Scoundrel is just about there for WK at least.
Going to try Executioner next as last time I ran that build it was lacklustre to say the least.
make cw use encounter on tab once during combat
make gf use shield once during combat
make gwf use unstopable once during combat
make hr not be able to change stance during combat
make dc be able to switch to divinity once during combat
OR force them to slot 1or in some cases 2 encounters just to be able to reuse their 'TAB'
and then it might.... It just might be a more balanced game
PS: I was never a supporter of the idea that a DnD game should be balanced between classes, that is why i kept playing my TR after 4 nerfs . But since you actually want to balance the classes I want any player of any class of any tree of any path , to be able to kill as fast as he is killed AND DEFEND with any player of any class of any tree of any path... in the same GS.
Or that "Balancing classes" that you so vigorously advertise.... is an epic fail. I wish that you can come up with something and hope that you will, cause you have a game with great potential , and I hate to see that potential fade away
From my testing so far, for best results I find MI Sabateur or WK Scoundrel. For pure fun I find either Scoundrel. I see little justification for Executioner at all (really it feels like it should be feated so that all of its bonuses work whether stealthed or not (since 98% or more it will not be in stealth) and with stealth being relegated to simply buying time or the bonuses to powers used from stealth). Now everyone's style varies so I am just sharing my experience.
While I am pleased that the TR is finally be addressed it seems that MI is being forced to go to the (even easier) new perma -- which confuses me as much of these changes were to do away with that I thought and not make it easier.
OK, in lieu of having the time when there are actually people on to get a group together for dungeons, I went and attempted to solo some IWD HEs before bed. I don't have the capabilities to make video so you don't get any, and I forgot to switch ACT over to the preview log because I am tired and tired makes me dumb. I'll see what I can figure out this weekend. It's my birthday today, I reserve the right to be lazy.
So, it might be doable if I got there at the very beginning as it started, but coming into Rescue Prospectors at 14 minutes, Bear Clan Invasion at 13 and Yeti Rampage at 11 I unsurprisingly wasn't able to clear before time ran out. Prospectors I was clearing the last group of cage guardians, BCI I was about halfway through the reinforcements, YR I was halfway through the last three yeti of the reinforcements for that. Problem is, what lets you actually survive isn't all that fast, as opposed to my CW who just shows up with her 4 encounter powers that all do good AoE damage and her quickly-filling no-target-limit daily of doom, pulls 2 groups at a time and wrecks face.
My build is MI Saboteur with 5 points in Exe. I'm 16.1k GS with 6.8k Power. 27 Dex/20 STR/16 CHA. Since I'm hunting HEs I kept the First Strike/Skillful Infiltrator/Shadow Strike/Dazing Strike/Blitz/Gloaming Cut/Cloud of Steel/Whirlwind of Blades/Lurker's Assault loadout. Couple general thoughts:
- BCI was hardest. Lots of quick mobs. Wolves are bloody annoying. As I expected. Yeti Rampage was easiest by far, but also the most tedious and slow. Also expected; running an AoE setup with no DoT. Rescue the Prospectors was the least tedious. The spawns consisting of four Shamans were the most difficult part by far. Not having room for ItC hurts, but SS is needed. See next item. Overall, the performance now on packs of mobs is greatly improved and TR will actually have some use in dungeon clearing outside the bosses. This is a very positive change.
I'm still not sold on TR's single-target sustained damage, however, and will need to do some more testing when I can get some dungeon runs in to see how it stacks up. Trying to organize running the same dungeon with the same group on both live and preview to see exactly what the difference is, also still working on a boss rotation I'm fully happy with.
- Even as a Sab it can take a while to recover stealth, even running around. Faster mobs that can pounce you mean you're entirely relying on Shadow Strike and One With The Shadows to re-enter stealth since it will never regenerate on its own, and when they can see you you're dead. (Being caught out of stealth was the cause of all three times I died between the HEs. Two of them were in BCI, which has faster pouncing mobs in larger numbers.)
At-wills drain stealth except GC(Which I still vehemently disagree with); we're the only class whose tab mechanic is rendered useless by taking damage. Perma is still possible if you really want to anyway: Please for the love of the gods of Toril get rid of damage draining stealth, at least while it's refilling. I'm OK with it draining while active from damage, that's one of the ways to deal with a perma in PvP, drop AoEs to drain their stealth and break their rotation, but while it's refilling needs to go. If we're supposed to be weaving in and out of stealth, I'd like to be able to do that without having to permanently give up 1/3 of my encounter slots to an encounter that does basically nothing but allow me to use my tab feature. It's less of an annoyance on Saboteur because at least you have One With The Shadows, but Scoundrel and especially the very stealth reliant Executioner don't have that 15s cooldown guaranteed stealth feature.
- Everyone else has complained about it, and so will I. Speaking of OWTS, Shadow Strike really needs to not proc it. ;P
- Swashbucking Captain's set bonus is difficult to get up and maintain without DF to get enough hits quick enough to keep the stacks up. This isn't a relevation or anything, but it is annoying.
- OK, anything that requires you to be behind an enemy might as well not exist in solo play. Or if you manage to get aggro in a dungeon/skirmish. Or if your 'tank'/aggro holder spins the boss. Etc. A couple of the Sab feats are like this and it's worthless lol. You lose too much stealth time solo running behind something. I think I saw Return to Shadows proc maybe twice the whole time I was HEing, mostly on the Yeti since those charge past you and you can hit them in the back while they do it. Derp.
- Cloud of Steel. It's a fantastic 'must pull back and disengage' when you're fighting stuff that works on. Great for throwing into areas full of AoE where entering will make you die. Long ago it was nerfed because of Perma TRs throwing it from stealth in PvP. This is no longer an issue at all. Please restore it to its original 12 charges. Or at least make the cooldown per dagger shorter. WK is partly ranged anyway so that's good for them, and MI is severely lacking in 'Oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> must get out the floor is lava from so many AoE splats' options. A lot of PvE TRs I know second Sly Flourish for those 'can't use DF because it's moving too much' moments; I've always preferred to second CoS for those 'lavaaaa' moments. With 8 charges you're standing there looking stupid quickly. 12 or a faster recharge would alleviate this problem.
- Been mentioned a million times and I will mention it again, dodges are currently bugged in two ways: The stamina reduction that was supposed to go up is not working properly, and you have infinite dodges in stealth. I'm totally OK with the latter and you can forget to fix it ever if you like, but the first needs a fix. Especially since it partially works - The first two take 50%, but after that you can dodge at 1/3 stamina. Derp.
- Permastealth is not now and never has been an issue in PvE. Yeah you can permastealth your way to soloclearing T2 dungeons. It takes forever even for the people who can do it. Big deal, CW does that just running through nuking everything. GWF just smacks it all and pounds tab. The stealth at-will reduction needs to be reduced or eliminated in PvE. Leave it in PvP. Perma annoys me too, even if I view it as mostly just a very good application of tools. This is one of those instances where a separation of PvE and PvP mechanics needs to occur. Hells, the patch notes from last year don't say the reduction amount, but I'm 90% certain that this current nonsense is MORE than the reduction per hit from the first time you guys tried this(And undid it three days later because about two people liked it who were actually TRs.)
- On that note, Lurker's has basically lost half its point. :P
- At the very least, at least let DF's flurry only count as one hit in PvE for the purposes of stealth drain. Everything that synergized with it is gone, but it's still MI's only real DoT, and incredibly important at bosses where we're frequently dodging and unable to attack reliably as it keeps the damage going.
- I know the balance people aren't the ones who fix animations, but maybe beat them upside the head with this: The TR walk animation is STILL missing and STILL replaced with a ridiculous slowed down version of the combat run. It looks awful, affects when we stop running, when we land from jumping, etc, everything out of combat. I've been reporting this since July when it was first messed up on the preview server before Mod 4 went live. I have a fantastic screenshot of my TR walking in IWD before the issue went live. I won an instagram contest with it. It looked awesome. I want it back. Shake who you need to. Forward it to them. Please.
- I wish to whine about GC being slow. Please ignore this as it is simply whining, the power is fine, I just don't like slow things on a class that should feel fast. Whine whine whine. OK, got that out of my system. :P
That's it for now. Super tired and I have to get up in an hour to drive three hours to San Francisco, and I hate the 580. :P
Last night I swapped out Blitz for Shadow Strike and that made a big change for the better. It can be used both defensively and offensively and as it procs Skull Cracker you have a window to unload a follow up attack before stealthing if necessary.
Still couldn't finish the Patrol HE with the Drake Rider without dying though. Once he gets off the drake there are just too many strong and fast attacks coming in and I still run out of dodges/stealth at critical moments. I feel like Dodge and/or Deflect needs a minor boost. Otherwise I think Scoundrel is just about there for WK at least.
Going to try Executioner next as last time I ran that build it was lacklustre to say the least.
Again, for the sake of the community, another "secret" to Scoundrel I am disclosing.
twilight, I hope these videos help.
Showcase: Well of Dragons, WK/ranged Scoundrel - "The ULTIMATE AoE TR for PvP"
What point 1 implies = the number of simultaneous targets hit by Blitz, PotB, and constand DHS ticks
At the beginning I dump WoB on purpose at 00:04
From the start of the fight with empty AP,
it took exactly a total of 26 seconds to full AP
13 seconds from beginning of the fight to phase1 mobs all gone = 50% AP
Another 13 seconds from phase2 mobs = 50% AP for a total of 100% within 26 seconds
Another point to look at.
PotB provides small but endless stream of incoming HP
WoB and buffed-up Blitz provides big chunks of life. Watch closely 02:07 --
3,937 HP returned by hitting only three mobs with a non-WoB buffed Blitz dealing around 12k damage. That is around 1.2life returned (around 10% with my stats). Were it 7 targets it would be 8,400 HP. If it were WoB buffed Blitz, dealing around 18k damage with my stats, 7 targets would have given me back 12.6k HP
i can build action points faster than you now in live without slotting TACTICS, quite sure.
i find the endless need of shadow strike DEPRESSING.
i find the use of at will out of stealth DEPRESSING, it s like "oh no im screwed let me land 2-3 at will while thinking what i m going to do"
i find this new "encounter to do damage" things DEPRESSING: Cooldowns are LOOOONG even with 20 INT and 2600 recovery! 10 seconds blitz! 16 seconds lashing blade! WITH 20 INT AND 2600 RECOVERY !!!!!!!!!
And on top of that -1 encounter slot for shadow strike, -1 encounter slot for ITC, 1 slot left.
i find the executioner path a JOKE: "While in stealth you are going to do incredible things" path. Well 1 seconds stealth every 30 seconds is like playing without feats.
What's the use of piercing damage too? "while doing damage in stealth you are going to hit for xxxx piercing".....yai 3 at wills. Now i can give this feats a sense being perma like never in my life but you know what??? ACT states that doing like that my DPS increase of 5%.....5%.........seriously?????
i find some of our class feature depressing....sneak attack! this joke of class feature...what s his use? to run faster in protector enclave??? i have a mount thanks. It was depressing before too but at least i could use at wills.
just where is the sustained dps????
duelist flurry no use,
sly flourish no use,
cloud of steal no use.
and again for the love of god, why do i need always shadow strike??? why?
We are the class that reading feats do damages only if in stealth but everythings we do from stealth causes it to drop. Funny so sense much?
I really really think that the stealth meter should gradually replenish ALL THE TIME while outside of stealth, damage shouldn't decrease it or stop it from replenishing, I have no trouble with damage emptying the meter while in stealth but outside of it damage should not do that.
Also, I'm still worried that even though we are getting better, we still underperform in PVE compared to another classes.
I really really think that the stealth meter should gradually replenish ALL THE TIME while outside of stealth, damage shouldn't decrease it or stop it from replenishing, I have no trouble with damage emptying the meter while in stealth but outside of it damage should not do that.
Also, I'm still worried that even though we are getting better, we still underperform in PVE compared to another classes.
I agree with you regarding stealth replenishment (I also still think stealth extending armor and feats should be replaced as well).
Regarding PVE comparisons with other classes, I started the preview with the mindset that the TR would need a considerable amount of increase in damage from live to be comparable to a similar geared/skilled CW/SW/HR/GWF in single target damage as well as an increase in survivability and utility/functionality/group appeal. Some of those classes have bugged powers, I am almost certain, as I still see TT adding millions of damage in less than a minute and I even saw a CW barely over 13k with rank 5/6 and lesser vorpal score 5 mil more damage than me in eLoL (I had 6 mil and was ahead of a comparable geared SW) and considering I almost always beat CW there I can only attribute that to something buggy. This leaves me not knowing quite where we should be at but I agree we are lacking. Now the fun factor is good with the scoundrel, but I am not going to go another year playing single player in an MMO as I can have more fun in the same fashion with a single player game (and yes I can get groups, but the TR in a group feels a lot like a welfare case living on the charity of the rest of the party).
I am not sure if we are getting better yet, that we are being given attention is good but when I see the way the dealt with stealth and at wills and the reasons and then I realize they made it even easier to do what they were claiming the reasons were done to address I get confused and am only left wondering. I am sure I can go with the perma stealth that is on preview now and outdamage what I do on live and do it easier from a greater range of safety and with a lot more flexibility in the approach but I am not a perma on live and I am not going to start playing one now. I am not apathetic as we are still early in testing and there is much to be changed I think.
(ps) Stealth makes plenty of sense to me since I view it as a repositioning, opportunitistic tool, not a constant variable that allows you to enjoy maximum benefits of offense and defense at the same time, and I don't really think the [other classes' tab compare blablabla] argument has any logic, since the only thing matters if the function is doing the job for the class that owns it.
And from my viewpoint, it does. If it effect combat any more than this, then us TRs are inexcusably OP, no doubt about it whatsover.
Different school of thought, I guess.
To me it seem that the other classes are more functional without their tab (except maybe the GF but they are different now and I haven't played one since the changes to them). It is like they were designed well and their tab is an added functionality. The TR on the other hand seems to designed around the tab (and even held back by it as we all know) and without the tab is hardly a class at all (one reason I enjoy the new Scoundrel so much is that it can actually do something with the tab). I think the devs should really work out the class first and then do the tab and additional tab functionality to powers (it still seems like every choice they made for the TR was based on the tab).
I agree with you regarding stealth replenishment (I also still think stealth extending armor and feats should be replaced as well).
Regarding PVE comparisons with other classes, I started the preview with the mindset that the TR would need a considerable amount of increase in damage from live to be comparable to a similar geared/skilled CW/SW/HR/GWF in single target damage as well as an increase in survivability and utility/functionality/group appeal. Some of those classes have bugged powers, I am almost certain, as I still see TT adding millions of damage in less than a minute and I even saw a CW barely over 13k with rank 5/6 and lesser vorpal score 5 mil more damage than me in eLoL (I had 6 mil and was ahead of a comparable geared SW) and considering I almost always beat CW there I can only attribute that to something buggy. This leaves me not knowing quite where we should be at but I agree we are lacking. Now the fun factor is good with the scoundrel, but I am not going to go another year playing single player in an MMO as I can have more fun in the same fashion with a single player game (and yes I can get groups, but the TR in a group feels a lot like a welfare case living on the charity of the rest of the party).
I am not sure if we are getting better yet, that we are being given attention is good but when I see the way the dealt with stealth and at wills and the reasons and then I realize they made it even easier to do what they were claiming the reasons were done to address I get confused and am only left wondering. I am sure I can go with the perma stealth that is on preview now and outdamage what I do on live and do it easier from a greater range of safety and with a lot more flexibility in the approach but I am not a perma on live and I am not going to start playing one now. I am not apathetic as we are still early in testing and there is much to be changed I think.
IMO bad dungeon design, not class design.
As a general rule of thumb in ANY MMOG;
(1) Ranged classes naturally, always have a DPS advantage over melees. This is simply a given fact in any well-established MMOG. The whole point of melee/ranged distinction is melees are meatshields to hold mobs at bay, while the real damage is done by 2nd or 3rd line nukers. Not to mention as long as the melees hold the aggro, melees have to divide their action between defense and attack. To expect a melee to exceed a ranged class in pure DPS is simply wrong, unless one builds a melee as simply a glass cannon with zero tangible survivability of its own.
What's the point of playing a ranged class when melees not only charge in the first line, defends itself, and still does more damage than the rear-line, free-dealing ranged? Comic relief?
(2) In that sense, all content in NW is very casual. It's designed so that even the lowest level of players can reasonably enjoy any dungeon. Compare it to WoW, which requires clockwork mechanics and exact timing, that a 3rd-party add-on is often warranted to add addtional functions to your HUD so you do not miss it -- lest the entire raiding party might get wiped, again and again and again.
In other words, the game's mostly super easy. When the game is easy, the potential difference in DPS capabilities usually manifest with extreme exaggeration. Even a slight difference in DPS potential will be very noticeably expressed in game.
I've said this before, but imagine mobs with faster and more variety of attacks that really hurts even classes like GWFs. Do you think the GWF can so much outshine the TR when it also has to sprint around and take defensive action every time? How about if more intelligent mob spawns target the CWs or DCs more often? What if these mobs are fast and deadly, has some amount of CC resistance and has high resistance to magic based attacks, while more weaker against direct physical? Would the CW still be able to pull so far ahead in damage when its busy running around, need to rely on the team's tank, or support/secondary DPS TRs come to rescue him?
If you think about it, when you're low in level and undergeared, surely you've realized the difference in damage isn't all that big. But once we near end-game in NW, then suddenly the GWFs or SWs or CWs just pull ahead.
This is a problem with shabby dungeon design, to cater for lower level players. You don't solve this problem by simply magnifying the power of one, supposedly "weak class". This problem needs a seperate attention from the developers, and a different policy concerning dungeon design.
Let's see how the CWs fare against a Beholder when its magic reflection/suppression is accurately portrayed in game, and when the aggro is shaky and it constantly switches targets to attack. Would the CW be able to deal so much damage when his magic goes poof, and every time he has to maneuver to get to the back side?
You get the idea. Lack of stronger, more intelligent mobs, better dungeon design. These are the reasons behind the problems we're seeing -- not the class itself.
That is my strong opinion, sud.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Comments
I changed tactics to target the strongest mob first. Stealth, run in, use VP to proc Skull Cracker, DiS from stealth for the auto-crit, unload as many CoS blades as I can get away with, and start dodging. Keeping mobile is critical and WK allows you to do that while still DPSing. The odd Blitz helps keep mobs at bay.
It works until you hit an encounter with multiple spawns at short intervals. You just can't clear fast enough as a Scoundrel and you get overwhelmed.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
It looks clearly like command on begun-destroy TR tab. Then permission to make other changes. Instead of fixing important things as ban all hard target users and disable it from game once and forever, they simply helped cheaters even more. Well, each time i heard unfair requests to destry stealth i never saw anyone saying to disable unstoppable of gwf, to disable 6 skills of HR or disable shield of GF and control of CW skills. Why no one come up with this idea if they come up with same ridiculous idea to destroy stealth?
This whole rework of stealth is after all evidence that devs don't know TR problems and they simply fulfilled wish of hypocrites crying to destroy stealth.
Major problems with TR tab
-depletes on making dmg when most feats depend on making dmg from stealth
-depletes on taking dmg
-in combat when TR is under attack all time it is not possible to get stealth without slotting one encounter, in result TR has one less encounter than any other class just to use tab as any other class which don't need it
-TR need tab more than ANY OTHER class because they have no defence without stealth and any other class in duel has more survivability and damage(except DC)
-with stealth depleting TR needs to use itc to survive and it means they have one encounter less
Overall TR has 1 encounter left while any other class has 3 because any other class has survivability that TR does not without itc and any other class has tab which does not need encounters to work as TR needs shadow strike.
That is clearly reason that TR tab is not usable it is only problem which should be solved by fixing useless encounters of TR: impact shot, smoke bomb and make TR as HR with 6 encounters. It clearly shows that during 1,5 year you could not fix problems with stealth but you only created more problems.
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Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
I always thought this would be excellent as well, it works very well for the imagery and solves an issue by possibly moving our cc immunity powers away from the paragon paths. I assume there is a reason they have never done this though i dont know what i t is.
to be honest i think pve some of the powers issues would be solved by an aggro shift of all the Tr's aggro to tghe dummy. However I have used it pretty effectivly for its action point gain. In tuern if it gets hit by all the mobs in a group or one of the golems its an instant full Ap bar. ive done whirlwind of blades back to back within 3 seconds on live using it.
If it had the aggro shift it would pretty much be awesome in pve i think.
i hope it happens
Something either broke or got changed under the hood.
Edit: Actually... don't y'all remember that one risk of soling tougher content with a stealth build was that if you couldn't keep up stealth without using the dummy, things would attack it and you'd get thrown out of stealth from the AoE damage? (But the AP gain was lovely.)
Really, it's not the dummy I used to know and love (and sometimes hate because I was on fire).
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Apparently this is happening often with scoundrels - I'm having the same issue. Haven't tried SB from stealth, but from outside stealth, it's dazing me, negating the whole effect of the power.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Not having had the time to sit through all the videos, but having played both, a big PvE advantage the WK has over the MI, even in the current live build, is the ability to deal a significant amount of DoT to multiple targets at once. MI is restricted to damaging one target at a time, most of the time. Kweassa recently touched on that in this thread as well.
Yes, VP was one of the encounters used in what I did see.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I don't know if this has already been mentioned but I get
"Your shadowy opportunity gives 0 physical damage" - to whatever I am hitting
I thought this was meant to be piercing damage?
Cheers
I made a few videos. The first is up. The Ancestral Totem. Sorry for the bady quality, next uploads will have a better quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkP-0wfx5dE&feature=youtu.be
Note: I am using Saboteur.
Edit: Two more videos
PvE-Medium Ecounter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS-K1vOZVCc
PvP-Icewindpass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6amimdbe4o&feature=youtu.be
Thanks for sharing!
It's good to see people finally coming forth with how they are faring with the new changes. All of these are good source of information for those who have not yet had the chance to test out the new TR. Let's try to be more "constructive" in every meaning of the word by giving our developers as much back up material and reference as possible.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
In the PvP i must admit it feels quite squishy to be TR. At the first match he instantly got me in his rotation and i was dead before i get out of it. The second match (recorded) i only won because of the Daily, the third match (i missed to record) i won again, no daily only gloaming cut at will but only a few hits are really hard but i think that the most player will adapt, because if i run out of stealth i only have dodge till i can run again in stealth and it can be over by any mistake i make. I openly think saboteur can still work in PvP if the other player will learn him know.
In PvE as Saboteur it's pretty the same. In the second i am out of stealth and directly attacked (trained dogs and barbarians in icewinddale) i am over. If i keep in stealth all is okay but every void can be my end. I think it's a good exchange of mechanic and feel good as TR-Saboteur. I hope the Videos show it.
@Devs: It seems the Damage of the Glyphs is broken (mighty red dragon) the damage goes up to 4-5K. Stealth will not be proper replenish by one with the shadows. And Wicked Reminder starts to progg if i use shortly after an at-will power.
Shadowy Opportunity gives 0 Physical Damage
CoS has the special effect of each consecutive shots landed increasing the damage of the next
DF has the special effect of CC immunity, 100% deflection, and bleeds for extra damage
GC has the special effect of 0 stealth depletion, stealth regen with a kill, and increasing damage in reverse proportion to target HP
DHS is a persistent DoT attack that can be applied to multipel targets
SF is a... um... errrrr....
What does SF have...?
NOTHING
Suggestion
Sly Flourish now attacks 5 times in the same timeframe as the 4 attacks made currently in Live (※ Not actual values )
* for example, if SF attacks 4 times each with 25 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 1s to follow through* then let the new SF attack 5 times each with 10 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 0.8s
* summary: 1 more attack in the same time frame, but overall around 50% damage decrease
let each hit of SF provide a stacking buff(max 5 stacks) for 2s (and refreshes with new stack) that provide a 2% increase in deflect chance and 1% increase in deflect severity (additive)
if all 5 attacks from the SF combo is hit in a single chain, then let it provide 10% extra deflection chance and 5% extra deflect severity for the next 5s
Concept behind the Suggestion
(1) At first I've thought of stealth refill.. maybe 2% per attack. But then I realized this would make the current Sab builds even more powerful, as well as Scoundrel builds that can CC a target long enough to land the attacks easily.
(2) Many people in PvE are having difficulties in adjusting to the new mechanic, which requires you to actively use encounters from stealth for damage -- which leaves you to survive out of stealth until the next stealth rotation is made possible.
(3) My experiences with MMOGs tells me a 'reliable' threshold value for squishy classes to use evasion/parry/deflect type of mechanics as a main form of defense, is 60%. Once the evade/parry/deflect reaches 60% then there is noticeable increase in survival. People start to get the impression that your character is actually evading all those attacks efficiently.
(4) High deflect builds for TRs currently simmer around 40% deflection. Some extreme cases can get it upto nearly 50%, but the most common/average cases it would be something around 37~43%.
(5) So, if we "conceptualize" what the at-wills are, and what they are for:
CoS - ranged harassment, but decent source of damage if all attacks hit in a stream
DF - a high damage tool, slow to activate but powerful if connects
GC - a extremely slow-but-powerful attack
DHS - high damage, but needs time to reach full damage
...all of the above, are offensive in nature. But currently people feel TR still lacks defense, and especially with the new changes leaving the TR to fight out of stealth more often (or.. go Sab and perma-GC).
Then would it not be OK to have ONE of the at-will powers become defensive in its nature? Something that could fill the need for more defense, but not at too strong levels, just enough to provide meaningful, short bursts of defense when it is in trouble?
Obviously, I do not want Slu Flourish to be so powerful as to something you can just keep swinging, but still strong enough to keep you alive in the midst of multiple mobs or enemy players.
If what I envision works out, I expect it to work out in the following manner:
(1) You've built your TR for defense, with high deflection. 40% base.
(2) When you are out of stealth, you start swinging SF.
(3) While you continue the attack, your deflection is increased to 60%, defseverity to 85%
(4) If you make use of Mocking Gesture as a scoundrel, momentarily your deflect will reach an amazing 70%
(5) but the damage you deal is weak. Damage wise SF will be the lowest at-will of them all by far
So basically, this will be a defensive at-will which will significantly increase your life expectancy while you're surrounded by mobs, until your crucial encounters recharge
However, even if it is a powerful defense, it is still chance-based, also the damage is very low
This is to encourage people to use it as a tool to momentarily make up the need to survive, and then move out of it when you are ready to attack strong again.
I don't want people to just lazily park in front of a mob group and press down one-button to kill everything easily... something which was possible in Live -- the stealth + at-will spamming. Even if you're safe, your damage is so low that it's going to take forever to kill a strong mob... also it's deflect -- it might fail at some point
So:
(1) it is a form of active defense, not a passive one like stealth. You need to keep hitting to make it work
(2) a significant increase in survival, but still a chance it might fail. You don't want to abuse it too much
(3) not very much worth as an offensive power. You can't kill something easily and still stay safe with one button
Might be interesting to see how it works out.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I really love the direction you are thinking for this... perhaps something a little simpler:
Sly Flourish Suggestion
Now, even at low levels the deflect boost will have a noticeable effect. If it feels too strong, give the max deflection from Sly Flourish a cap, for instance, Sly Flourish can't take the total deflect chance above 70%.
I like it, i did suggest something with sly flourish a few times where you gain deflect in a stack etc...
I like that others see the need for our at-wills need a once over to evaluate usefulness.
May I respectfully share my thoughts and ideas to the upcoming changes for the TR class. This are some of the things I noticed based on my experience for a year playing a TR in NW.
*slow for a leather user
*lacks tools to survive (compared to HR with 6 encounters, choice of self buff, self healing with high deflect without sacrificing offense for defense. other class is self explanatory)
*some feats are inferior to other class (other class's feats affects 2-3 encounters with big %)
Feedback: Bait and Switch
I feel this encounter needs some attention. I would like to suggest Bait and Switch: Breaks cc and provides 3 seconds stealth (does not deplete stealth meter)
Feedback: Smoke Bomb
With the current changes in Dazing Strike this high level encounter is out tiered. I would like to suggest Smoke Bomb: increases deflection chance by 15% while inside the smoke with a persisting effect of 4 secs after leaving the aoe. Smoke Bomb: applies a 5% slow and 5% of current hp as piercing damage.
Feedback: Duelist Flurry
The current changes in stealth and the inability to stun or prone makes this At-will hard to use in pvp. I would like to suggest Duelist Flurry: 3rd strike to be usable after the 2nd strike for 4 seconds. Provides 100% deflect chance during the 3rd strike.
Feedback: Impact Shot
I do not understand why a three charge encounter with low damage will have a diminishing damage per charge. May I respectfully suggest that all three charges will have the same damage and have a 20% chance to stun for 2 seconds or a 4 secs root because TR is the only class that does not have a stun or prone.
The overall damage is so low that putting more than one point into it is useless. Id like to see the animation speed for shadow strike increased but im not sure what else to replace the mediocre 10% damage increase.
thing i hate about DF is that dodges cancel the wind up
I agree mate we have this encounter in our bar just to get one stealth bar and a daze instead of a stun for a slow encounter, compared to other class a nuke with a cc in one encounter or HR got 1 buff and 1 cc in one encounter, same goes with smoke bomb we get a aoe daze with no damage and slow/stun so we can connect DF/SF after the encounter we should get at least a self buff for smoke bomb so we can use it to engage or disengage
Still couldn't finish the Patrol HE with the Drake Rider without dying though. Once he gets off the drake there are just too many strong and fast attacks coming in and I still run out of dodges/stealth at critical moments. I feel like Dodge and/or Deflect needs a minor boost. Otherwise I think Scoundrel is just about there for WK at least.
Going to try Executioner next as last time I ran that build it was lacklustre to say the least.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
make cw use encounter on tab once during combat
make gf use shield once during combat
make gwf use unstopable once during combat
make hr not be able to change stance during combat
make dc be able to switch to divinity once during combat
OR force them to slot 1or in some cases 2 encounters just to be able to reuse their 'TAB'
and then it might.... It just might be a more balanced game
PS: I was never a supporter of the idea that a DnD game should be balanced between classes, that is why i kept playing my TR after 4 nerfs . But since you actually want to balance the classes I want any player of any class of any tree of any path , to be able to kill as fast as he is killed AND DEFEND with any player of any class of any tree of any path... in the same GS.
Or that "Balancing classes" that you so vigorously advertise.... is an epic fail. I wish that you can come up with something and hope that you will, cause you have a game with great potential , and I hate to see that potential fade away
While I am pleased that the TR is finally be addressed it seems that MI is being forced to go to the (even easier) new perma -- which confuses me as much of these changes were to do away with that I thought and not make it easier.
So, it might be doable if I got there at the very beginning as it started, but coming into Rescue Prospectors at 14 minutes, Bear Clan Invasion at 13 and Yeti Rampage at 11 I unsurprisingly wasn't able to clear before time ran out. Prospectors I was clearing the last group of cage guardians, BCI I was about halfway through the reinforcements, YR I was halfway through the last three yeti of the reinforcements for that. Problem is, what lets you actually survive isn't all that fast, as opposed to my CW who just shows up with her 4 encounter powers that all do good AoE damage and her quickly-filling no-target-limit daily of doom, pulls 2 groups at a time and wrecks face.
My build is MI Saboteur with 5 points in Exe. I'm 16.1k GS with 6.8k Power. 27 Dex/20 STR/16 CHA. Since I'm hunting HEs I kept the First Strike/Skillful Infiltrator/Shadow Strike/Dazing Strike/Blitz/Gloaming Cut/Cloud of Steel/Whirlwind of Blades/Lurker's Assault loadout. Couple general thoughts:
- BCI was hardest. Lots of quick mobs. Wolves are bloody annoying. As I expected. Yeti Rampage was easiest by far, but also the most tedious and slow. Also expected; running an AoE setup with no DoT. Rescue the Prospectors was the least tedious. The spawns consisting of four Shamans were the most difficult part by far. Not having room for ItC hurts, but SS is needed. See next item. Overall, the performance now on packs of mobs is greatly improved and TR will actually have some use in dungeon clearing outside the bosses. This is a very positive change.
I'm still not sold on TR's single-target sustained damage, however, and will need to do some more testing when I can get some dungeon runs in to see how it stacks up. Trying to organize running the same dungeon with the same group on both live and preview to see exactly what the difference is, also still working on a boss rotation I'm fully happy with.
- Even as a Sab it can take a while to recover stealth, even running around. Faster mobs that can pounce you mean you're entirely relying on Shadow Strike and One With The Shadows to re-enter stealth since it will never regenerate on its own, and when they can see you you're dead.
At-wills drain stealth except GC(Which I still vehemently disagree with); we're the only class whose tab mechanic is rendered useless by taking damage. Perma is still possible if you really want to anyway: Please for the love of the gods of Toril get rid of damage draining stealth, at least while it's refilling. I'm OK with it draining while active from damage, that's one of the ways to deal with a perma in PvP, drop AoEs to drain their stealth and break their rotation, but while it's refilling needs to go. If we're supposed to be weaving in and out of stealth, I'd like to be able to do that without having to permanently give up 1/3 of my encounter slots to an encounter that does basically nothing but allow me to use my tab feature. It's less of an annoyance on Saboteur because at least you have One With The Shadows, but Scoundrel and especially the very stealth reliant Executioner don't have that 15s cooldown guaranteed stealth feature.
- Everyone else has complained about it, and so will I. Speaking of OWTS, Shadow Strike really needs to not proc it. ;P
- Swashbucking Captain's set bonus is difficult to get up and maintain without DF to get enough hits quick enough to keep the stacks up. This isn't a relevation or anything, but it is annoying.
- OK, anything that requires you to be behind an enemy might as well not exist in solo play. Or if you manage to get aggro in a dungeon/skirmish. Or if your 'tank'/aggro holder spins the boss. Etc. A couple of the Sab feats are like this and it's worthless lol. You lose too much stealth time solo running behind something. I think I saw Return to Shadows proc maybe twice the whole time I was HEing, mostly on the Yeti since those charge past you and you can hit them in the back while they do it. Derp.
- Cloud of Steel. It's a fantastic 'must pull back and disengage' when you're fighting stuff that works on. Great for throwing into areas full of AoE where entering will make you die. Long ago it was nerfed because of Perma TRs throwing it from stealth in PvP. This is no longer an issue at all. Please restore it to its original 12 charges. Or at least make the cooldown per dagger shorter. WK is partly ranged anyway so that's good for them, and MI is severely lacking in 'Oh <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> must get out the floor is lava from so many AoE splats' options. A lot of PvE TRs I know second Sly Flourish for those 'can't use DF because it's moving too much' moments; I've always preferred to second CoS for those 'lavaaaa' moments. With 8 charges you're standing there looking stupid quickly. 12 or a faster recharge would alleviate this problem.
- Been mentioned a million times and I will mention it again, dodges are currently bugged in two ways: The stamina reduction that was supposed to go up is not working properly, and you have infinite dodges in stealth. I'm totally OK with the latter and you can forget to fix it ever if you like, but the first needs a fix. Especially since it partially works - The first two take 50%, but after that you can dodge at 1/3 stamina. Derp.
- Permastealth is not now and never has been an issue in PvE. Yeah you can permastealth your way to soloclearing T2 dungeons. It takes forever even for the people who can do it. Big deal, CW does that just running through nuking everything. GWF just smacks it all and pounds tab. The stealth at-will reduction needs to be reduced or eliminated in PvE. Leave it in PvP. Perma annoys me too, even if I view it as mostly just a very good application of tools. This is one of those instances where a separation of PvE and PvP mechanics needs to occur. Hells, the patch notes from last year don't say the reduction amount, but I'm 90% certain that this current nonsense is MORE than the reduction per hit from the first time you guys tried this(And undid it three days later because about two people liked it who were actually TRs.)
- On that note, Lurker's has basically lost half its point. :P
- At the very least, at least let DF's flurry only count as one hit in PvE for the purposes of stealth drain. Everything that synergized with it is gone, but it's still MI's only real DoT, and incredibly important at bosses where we're frequently dodging and unable to attack reliably as it keeps the damage going.
- I know the balance people aren't the ones who fix animations, but maybe beat them upside the head with this: The TR walk animation is STILL missing and STILL replaced with a ridiculous slowed down version of the combat run. It looks awful, affects when we stop running, when we land from jumping, etc, everything out of combat. I've been reporting this since July when it was first messed up on the preview server before Mod 4 went live. I have a fantastic screenshot of my TR walking in IWD before the issue went live. I won an instagram contest with it. It looked awesome. I want it back. Shake who you need to. Forward it to them. Please.
- I wish to whine about GC being slow. Please ignore this as it is simply whining, the power is fine, I just don't like slow things on a class that should feel fast. Whine whine whine. OK, got that out of my system. :P
That's it for now. Super tired and I have to get up in an hour to drive three hours to San Francisco, and I hate the 580. :P
Again, for the sake of the community, another "secret" to Scoundrel I am disclosing.
twilight, I hope these videos help.
Showcase: Well of Dragons, WK/ranged Scoundrel - "The ULTIMATE AoE TR for PvP"
1. AoE Damage Showcase: http://youtu.be/0GOwTKHPaZs
Take note of the 18~19k WoB → +5 targets, power buffed by 100% → 17~18k Blitz
Wise use of the WoB power buff has practically turned my Blitz into a 2nd WoB that hits 2 more targets
All this damage is done on top of low-but-steady PotB damage. DHS hasn't even been applied
2. The "Secret": Fast AP gain + Superb Life Steal: http://youtu.be/do36-IYbYIU
What point 1 implies = the number of simultaneous targets hit by Blitz, PotB, and constand DHS ticks
At the beginning I dump WoB on purpose at 00:04
From the start of the fight with empty AP,
it took exactly a total of 26 seconds to full AP13 seconds from beginning of the fight to phase1 mobs all gone = 50% AP
Another 13 seconds from phase2 mobs = 50% AP for a total of 100% within 26 seconds
Another point to look at.
PotB provides small but endless stream of incoming HPWoB and buffed-up Blitz provides big chunks of life. Watch closely 02:07 --
3,937 HP returned by hitting only three mobs with a non-WoB buffed Blitz dealing around 12k damage. That is around 1.2life returned (around 10% with my stats). Were it 7 targets it would be 8,400 HP. If it were WoB buffed Blitz, dealing around 18k damage with my stats, 7 targets would have given me back 12.6k HP3. Well of Dragons: Thwarting Sacrifces: http://youtu.be/-L_lbn4JakI
4. Well of Dragons: Thwarting the Hoarders: http://youtu.be/ryiPbg-bZL0
5. Well of Dragons: Thwarting Cult Patrols: http://youtu.be/Mt_B4krxQLg
Clear time:
1 minute 10 secondsAfter clearing, fooling around with the drake. At 02:36 my HP drops lower than 20%
At 02:46, you see Endless Consumption coming into action
Around 03:02, after 26 seconds of fooling around with drake and fighting drake, my life is full
My Life Steal is around 10%. Nothing special at all, as anyone who invests in LS would agree
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i find the endless need of shadow strike DEPRESSING.
i find the use of at will out of stealth DEPRESSING, it s like "oh no im screwed let me land 2-3 at will while thinking what i m going to do"
i find this new "encounter to do damage" things DEPRESSING: Cooldowns are LOOOONG even with 20 INT and 2600 recovery! 10 seconds blitz! 16 seconds lashing blade! WITH 20 INT AND 2600 RECOVERY !!!!!!!!!
And on top of that -1 encounter slot for shadow strike, -1 encounter slot for ITC, 1 slot left.
i find the executioner path a JOKE: "While in stealth you are going to do incredible things" path. Well 1 seconds stealth every 30 seconds is like playing without feats.
What's the use of piercing damage too? "while doing damage in stealth you are going to hit for xxxx piercing".....yai 3 at wills. Now i can give this feats a sense being perma like never in my life but you know what??? ACT states that doing like that my DPS increase of 5%.....5%.........seriously?????
i find some of our class feature depressing....sneak attack! this joke of class feature...what s his use? to run faster in protector enclave??? i have a mount thanks. It was depressing before too but at least i could use at wills.
just where is the sustained dps????
duelist flurry no use,
sly flourish no use,
cloud of steal no use.
and again for the love of god, why do i need always shadow strike??? why?
We are the class that reading feats do damages only if in stealth but everythings we do from stealth causes it to drop. Funny so sense much?
Also, I'm still worried that even though we are getting better, we still underperform in PVE compared to another classes.
I agree with you regarding stealth replenishment (I also still think stealth extending armor and feats should be replaced as well).
Regarding PVE comparisons with other classes, I started the preview with the mindset that the TR would need a considerable amount of increase in damage from live to be comparable to a similar geared/skilled CW/SW/HR/GWF in single target damage as well as an increase in survivability and utility/functionality/group appeal. Some of those classes have bugged powers, I am almost certain, as I still see TT adding millions of damage in less than a minute and I even saw a CW barely over 13k with rank 5/6 and lesser vorpal score 5 mil more damage than me in eLoL (I had 6 mil and was ahead of a comparable geared SW) and considering I almost always beat CW there I can only attribute that to something buggy. This leaves me not knowing quite where we should be at but I agree we are lacking. Now the fun factor is good with the scoundrel, but I am not going to go another year playing single player in an MMO as I can have more fun in the same fashion with a single player game (and yes I can get groups, but the TR in a group feels a lot like a welfare case living on the charity of the rest of the party).
I am not sure if we are getting better yet, that we are being given attention is good but when I see the way the dealt with stealth and at wills and the reasons and then I realize they made it even easier to do what they were claiming the reasons were done to address I get confused and am only left wondering. I am sure I can go with the perma stealth that is on preview now and outdamage what I do on live and do it easier from a greater range of safety and with a lot more flexibility in the approach but I am not a perma on live and I am not going to start playing one now. I am not apathetic as we are still early in testing and there is much to be changed I think.
To me it seem that the other classes are more functional without their tab (except maybe the GF but they are different now and I haven't played one since the changes to them). It is like they were designed well and their tab is an added functionality. The TR on the other hand seems to designed around the tab (and even held back by it as we all know) and without the tab is hardly a class at all (one reason I enjoy the new Scoundrel so much is that it can actually do something with the tab). I think the devs should really work out the class first and then do the tab and additional tab functionality to powers (it still seems like every choice they made for the TR was based on the tab).
IMO bad dungeon design, not class design.
As a general rule of thumb in ANY MMOG;
(1) Ranged classes naturally, always have a DPS advantage over melees. This is simply a given fact in any well-established MMOG. The whole point of melee/ranged distinction is melees are meatshields to hold mobs at bay, while the real damage is done by 2nd or 3rd line nukers. Not to mention as long as the melees hold the aggro, melees have to divide their action between defense and attack. To expect a melee to exceed a ranged class in pure DPS is simply wrong, unless one builds a melee as simply a glass cannon with zero tangible survivability of its own.
What's the point of playing a ranged class when melees not only charge in the first line, defends itself, and still does more damage than the rear-line, free-dealing ranged? Comic relief?
(2) In that sense, all content in NW is very casual. It's designed so that even the lowest level of players can reasonably enjoy any dungeon. Compare it to WoW, which requires clockwork mechanics and exact timing, that a 3rd-party add-on is often warranted to add addtional functions to your HUD so you do not miss it -- lest the entire raiding party might get wiped, again and again and again.
In other words, the game's mostly super easy. When the game is easy, the potential difference in DPS capabilities usually manifest with extreme exaggeration. Even a slight difference in DPS potential will be very noticeably expressed in game.
I've said this before, but imagine mobs with faster and more variety of attacks that really hurts even classes like GWFs. Do you think the GWF can so much outshine the TR when it also has to sprint around and take defensive action every time? How about if more intelligent mob spawns target the CWs or DCs more often? What if these mobs are fast and deadly, has some amount of CC resistance and has high resistance to magic based attacks, while more weaker against direct physical? Would the CW still be able to pull so far ahead in damage when its busy running around, need to rely on the team's tank, or support/secondary DPS TRs come to rescue him?
If you think about it, when you're low in level and undergeared, surely you've realized the difference in damage isn't all that big. But once we near end-game in NW, then suddenly the GWFs or SWs or CWs just pull ahead.
This is a problem with shabby dungeon design, to cater for lower level players. You don't solve this problem by simply magnifying the power of one, supposedly "weak class". This problem needs a seperate attention from the developers, and a different policy concerning dungeon design.
Let's see how the CWs fare against a Beholder when its magic reflection/suppression is accurately portrayed in game, and when the aggro is shaky and it constantly switches targets to attack. Would the CW be able to deal so much damage when his magic goes poof, and every time he has to maneuver to get to the back side?
You get the idea. Lack of stronger, more intelligent mobs, better dungeon design. These are the reasons behind the problems we're seeing -- not the class itself.
That is my strong opinion, sud.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'