Bug: Saboteur “Ambusher's Haste” and “Shadowy Opportunity” – the piercing damage only activates when I have points on the two feats at the same time.
Bug: Scoundrel Skullcracker dazes myself when I activate Lurker Assault daily
Feedback: Give whisperknife some at-will that don't drain stealth. Whisperknife path is currently useless and don't contribute nothing to the variety of builds in game.
Reduce the stealth drain to 5% per at-will hit. Currently it drains so fast that we can't coordinate a single at-will spawn when we are under attack. The stealth drain from getting attacked and the drain for the at-will spawn makes stealth disappear in 2 seconds.
We need more survivability. The ITC changes are killing us to fast. Whisperknife was further without useless without some ITC and at-will from that can be used stealth.
We just can’t survive a CW or a GWF whitout stealth.,so please make us more resintent. And give us more control options. Makes smoke bomb a stun encounter and give the skill some damage.
Improves sly flourish cast speed. The at-will became useless without the scoundrel feat.
“Shadowy Opportunity” piercing damage must procs out of stealth to.
I fell the TR don’t have enough damage boost in comparison to CW or GWF.
Even though I'm liking the direction the changes are going, I'm still worried, I think TRs might be bit too good in PVP (which could get us nerfed again in both PVP and PVE) and not good enough in PVE, I mean from the info some people are getting, they are getting more dps than before (around 50% more) but when you have CWs, SWs or now DCs doing 4 or 5 times the damage we do, I still fear we're not useful enough to bring us in a dungeon. :S
I think the biggest issue is providing both the security of longer stealth and added damage while in stealth. When stealthed, being able to attack without being seen is benefit enough (as under the current stealth schematic). If you want to add significant bonuses to damage from stealth, then stealth needs to end sooner, rather than later. As it stands, 100% crit chance from stealth necessitates a shorter stealth, or, at least, one that ends upon attack. A lower crit chance + general damage buff would require shorter stealth and draining upon attacking at the very least (as your target is bound to notice you, were it real life).
Really, the issue goes down to the debate on the purpose of stealth. The way I see it, there are two camps:
Stealth as escape/security/survival mechanism
Stealth for positioning and executing a key strike
I fall into the 2nd camp and, having played D&D from 2.0 through pathfinder and various MMOs, I find that the role of stealth has indeed shifted slightly from the latter to the former. Regardless of position, though, there are penalties when attempting to enter stealth in combat - attacks of opportunity, higher fail chance, etc., but nowhere does it have both traits completely.
Now, I realize that this is an mmo, which is part of the reason stealth mechanics are difficult to execute. Honestly, the best stealth mechanics I've seen have been in single-player games, in which one has to pay constant attention to one's target and surroundings to avoid notice (i.e. premature ending of stealth) and stealth ends upon attack, notably "The Hobbit" (early 00's) and Kingdoms of Amalur. This mechanic would be a pain to implement, especially for PvP, which is why it doesn't exist in this state.
So, to sum, I think stealth should either be extended longer, with no major penalty for at-wills (maybe some slight breakage/fuzzing while attacking, for PvP's sake), which is the current system we are trying to move away from, or be given moderate to significant damage benefits, but ends shortly after attacking, which is where we're moving towards. Regardless, I don't think re-entering stealth in combat should be as easy as it currently is (looking at SS and Sab tree in particular).
I keep seeing people say that "with the availability of longer duration stealth there should be less damage, and with less duration stealth there should be more damage"...
Hello? Has anyone been on PTS lately? Saboteur currently has both the longest available stealth along with the ability to enter stealth far, far more frequently and the best damage capabilities of the three specs. The other two should be brought up to par, and if not, then what is the point of this "rework"? To make Saboteur the new replacement for Executioner on live?
I'm sorry, but Stealth availability is too low for the two remaining specs. it may not need as large of a buff as I suggested, but it does need one, without question.
Current Saboteur has more than enough duration already. Increasing the duration slightly, reducing the crit rate to 50% and adding in a decent damage buff would not make it OP... it would actually knock Saboteur down a peg in damage, and allow the other two specs to catch up a little. It might even have the potential to make Executioner the top damage dealer it should be, with Sab closely behind and Scoundrel at the bottom.
I tend to think that the hierarchy should be: Executioner in 1st place for Pure Damage, then Scoundrel in 2nd for Moderate Damage and Utility and finally Saboteur in 3rd for Moderate Damage and Stealth.
That said, I do agree with many of your points. But most often, in this game, I'll use stealth as a means to gain Combat Advantage for building back AP after using a daily. As a solo PvE player, it can often be difficult to gain combat advantage without using stealth or having a companion out to flank the enemy, and currently on PTS our only feat to increase AP gain is tied to having Combat Advantage... which means that the current function of stealth on PTS will, among other things, make using dailies far less frequent for any non-Saboteur spec who can't stay in or re-enter stealth anywhere near as often.
There are most definitely ways around this to make stealth more available to Scoundrel or Executioner, but those ways all involve selecting specific powers and/or class features and/or feats in order to do it. In the end we'd just be imitating Saboteur, so why bother to go any route other than Sab in that case? after all, they have all the stealth, and all the damage. Saboteur is for Mod5 what Executioner currently is on live. The single most recognized "best" spec that the majority will gravitate towards.
Just to be clear, I don't actually have a big problem with the current Saboteur spec. Actually I like it, it's been fun to play in my testing of it. I do however, have a big problem with the fact that the other two specs are lagging drastically behind it. I have a problem that Scoundrel is supposed to be the "tough, more survivable spec" and has to use two specs for increased life steal (on top of having 3 more for deflect and only one for control effects) instead of damage, and yet both Sab and Exe with their damage specs can heal more from life steal than Scoundrel.
Hmm... I hear you on that, especially in your idea of where the damage rankings should be and on how much Sab is getting boosted from being able to stay in the heavily buffed stealth.
As far as AP goes? I will miss scoundrel's action gain feat. end of story. Though I have to wonder if hitting on CCed enemies counts for CA, because, if so, then the smokebomb + dazing scoundrel (what I use for IWD HEs) could regen AP very quickly.
Just to be clear, I don't actually have a big problem with the current Saboteur spec. Actually I like it, it's been fun to play in my testing of it. I do however, have a big problem with the fact that the other two specs are lagging drastically behind it. I have a problem that Scoundrel is supposed to be the "tough, more survivable spec" and has to use two specs for increased life steal (on top of having 3 more for deflect and only one for control effects) instead of damage, and yet both Sab and Exe with their damage specs can heal more from life steal than Scoundrel.
I agree on the pointlessness of the redundant lifesteal and deflect feats. Scoundrel should be the versatile one who stacks effects through dirty fighting and, as such, shouldn't need stealth as much. As a result, I've been running a hybrid on PTS to give me the T1 crit severity and T2 DR debuff of exe (I really would like for something like catspaw style to return). Consolidating the deflect and lifesteal feats (which really are pennies in the overall bucket) into one substantial feat each would be more beneficial. Also, see my response earlier to kweassa's suggestion of deflect builds stamina (don't really like that, but agree some of the excess should be swapped out).
Executioner's still got the short end of the stick as spike damage doesn't make for a good fight with someone who happens to have multiple HDs' worth of health.
So, yes. stealth is a sticky issue, what with it having serious benefits, but one feat tree tailored to milk stealth more, which results in that one spec over-damaging the other two.
I still think that there needs to be some clarification/thought put into the variance of stealth from someone with only the normal stealth to someone with maxed improved cunning sneak + profound/grim/battlefield. I think stealth duration, with the direction the devs are taking it, needs to be normalized and not varied in its potential and I still feel that adding a 1 second duration to the normal stealth and replacing ICS and the stealth extension on armor would be the way to go.
Feedback: Bug Report Smoke Bomb is still working too well; it is dazing everything inside the cloud, myself included. This is obviously not WAI and is hampering gameplay as the effect of using SB is, essentially, nullified
sabotuer is not better dps than executioner at higher gear level, only when you are not armor pen capped and with high crit chance
Problem: TR now gets most of its damage from stealth which works for sab tree (this one is going well), however exec and scoundrel are forced to slot SS to be able to get the most out of these changes.
my problem with the new stealth is that you can use it onle a small fraction of the time, for other classes, their tab skill is useful much longer, but we only get a few secs in every battle.
my problem with the new stealth is that you can use it onle a small fraction of the time, for other classes, their tab skill is useful much longer, but we only get a few secs in every battle.
It is certainly different from the others. I don't mind it being different, though, but it still needs to be sorted out more. For the executioner it feels like you should not even use stealth except to follow with lashing or another encounter and it goes so fast that you cannot play around (except maybe move a little bit) as trying an attack or two before your encounter can waste the stealth.
- TR is permanently in stealth while moving, out of fight.
- the moment you attack, you are out of stealth
- More dodges and tricks to stun/ mess up targeting (clones) to increase survivability. ITC as cc immunity and damage reduction (no full immunity). More dodges for more 'proactive' survival
- obviously more damage with crit and high spikes
- cannot re-enter stealth for 10 seconds after being in combat (to avoid easy escapes)
-one path being the current perma with more stealth but dots/ low damage dispatched over time (kind of low damage 'tank'/harrasser). The closer you are to target, the longer stealth lasts. When you get far, stealth drains fast to avoid easy escape and force skillful evading gameplay while in combat, avoiding cheap tactics like attack-get away-attack endlessly. Gap closer sort of marauder rush so TR can get close to ranged classes and engage in close combat. Per ma style but in mele e range with no in-out play. You decide to fight, you can't get away as you please.
I've been testing Scoundrel fairly extensively in the well of Dragons. While I like the somewhat chaotic fighting style (lots of dodging and dazing) I feel it still lacks survivability. The Lifesteal boost in no way compensates for the reduction is LS healing due to lower DPS when compared to Saboteur.
Scoundrel needs either a further Lifesteal boost or a DPS boost. IMO it's filling a similar role to the Combat HR and should have comparable performance. Currently this is not the case.
I don't get what bother the mass of people.
For me, i tested several builds now on the Preview Server and get my DPS to 22.000-24.000. On the Live Server i have now ~15.000 DPS. For me it's a great DPS increase and on the Live Server i am the one that is dying the least because i can dodge, and dodge makes me immun to anything and i don't have the feeling that ITC is "nerfed" too much.
The only thing i didn't tested was the Wisperknife Path...
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited October 2014
Feedback
How about a defensesive buff that specificifically targets aoe damage. It fits in line with existing rogue history with evasion. It would also help a lot with primary pve bane for tr (boss doing a giant free circle)
Here is a link to the damage i did on the target dummies as executioner. In the same amount of time, I did 1 million damage less as sabotuer using gloaming cut.
A video of how you play it out.. let's say... "Free all the prospectors(3~5man)" level HE in IWD, solo.
Ofcourse soloing the entire mob group, or clearing the first phase out and then soloing the 'boss phase' is very difficult for most people, so let's see how your Sab does against just 4~5 of the "strong" lieutenant grade mobs and let's see if you can deal damage so much.
Let's see if your Sab can make use of all the stealth opportunities to blow it off by using encounters every chance you get, so your damage allows to perform so superiorly over other TR paths.
I'll try the same with a Scoundrel, and we can compare the vids. I still think all your 'sage advice' here is simply a result of beating down trash mobs or test dummies, with zero actual combat testings... so I'd like to have a change to see and compare if your Sab's so much more powerful than Scoundrels.
Ofcourse, there could be GS differences, but most experienced TRs in these forums can simply look at how two TRs move and use powers, and then see which is being more efficient, so it's not a real problem.
Do we have a deal?
Remember, my conditions are:
* No 'Free the merchant' type of HEs, since those have NPCs grabbing aggro for you.
* 3~5man level HEs in IWD, with the stronger version of mobs clad in black ice stuff
* 4~5mob aggro at the same time should do
* heal pots, dailies, whatever augment pots, companions, all acceptable
I don't have videos, but with a V1 Sab build (first patch) I was able to solo the high-level mob groups on Yeti Rampage and Corrupted Wolf Pack (I may have been able to solo these completely but ran out of time). I was also able to solo the complete Temple of Auril, and blast through all of the lower level HEs in IWD. With a V2 Scoundrel build (latest patch) I was not able to reproduce this level of performance.
The main issue for me is not the lower DPS but more the lack of survivability. While the Scoundrel has tools that are very useful against single targets, against larger groups of strong mobs the inability to enter stealth as frequently combined with the lower incoming LS heals means lower survivability and opportunity to remain on target and dealing damage.
There is no doubt that overall (for PvE at least) the Sab path is significantly superior to both Scoundrel and Executioner.
I don't have videos, but with a V1 Sab build (first patch) I was able to solo the high-level mob groups on Yeti Rampage and Corrupted Wolf Pack (I may have been able to solo these completely but ran out of time). I was also able to solo the complete Temple of Auril, and blast through all of the lower level HEs in IWD. With a V2 Scoundrel build (latest patch) I was not able to reproduce this level of performance.
The main issue for me is not the lower DPS but more the lack of survivability. While the Scoundrel has tools that are very useful against single targets, against larger groups of strong mobs the inability to enter stealth as frequently combined with the lower incoming LS heals means lower survivability and opportunity to remain on target and dealing damage.
There is no doubt that overall (for PvE at least) the Sab path is significantly superior to both Scoundrel and Executioner.
I'll start filming the same HEs played through with both a MI/melee Scoundrel, and a WK/ranged Scoundrel. In turn, in all friendly spirit and for the sake of sharing information to help provide better information to our fellow TR players, I would like to humbly request if I could see how you are faring with the Sab build in those same HEs in form of video recording - if possible.
I know it is a lot to ask, but it would be meaningful just what level of performance/clear time/ease of combat you consider to be so much 'significantly superior' over the Scoundrel, if we can visually compare just how much we're doing, side-by-side... and to see if the Scoundrel method I am using can match it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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sagredo13Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited October 2014
First of all excuse me for my english. It is the first time I post my opinion.
I have tested Saboteur, Scroundel and Exectioner with Master Infiltrator. The main problem is stealth (obviously). Devolopers said that they want to limit perma-stealth. So the first modification is "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack". By this change, stealth with TR is useless. Infact although I have a complete profound set (+30% stealth) and improved cunning sneak (+20%), the real duration of stealth, in combat, is by roughly 1-2 second using at-will power. Thus any player cannot use stealth with at will power. I suggest 2 adjustment:
1) increase the recharge time of the encounter powers that grant stealth (bait and switch and shadow strike), erasing the "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack", or (not both) ,
2) to extend the application of tenacious concealment also to the damage the player deals in combat (now it is applied only to the damage the player receives), manteining the "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack".
With reference to feats:
a) Sobouter: is totally useless. There is not sufficient stealth to allow a balancing combat in stealth. ;
b) Executioner: stealth is used only to have a more powerful attack, but if you are not able to kill your enemy with one shot...
c) Scroundel: is interesting, because is a path based on daze and more survivability. I think is the only playable feat.
I hope I was helpful to improve the system.
Bug: Last moments Well on the target dummy this feat works, but out in the world it does not. I had stealthed and used dazing strike on a dire polar bear at full hp and did a 30k crit. I then lowered his hp to near death and restealthed and did another dazing strike for another 30k crit. It seems last moments is not working as it states.
So iv been testing the three paths quite a bit again and im beginning to feel like i agree with kweassa that they are indeed all quite viable or will be very viable with some minor tweaks which im sure the devs are working on as there is still a while till it all goes live.
Sab has excellent damage and if you slot SS you will be in and out of stealth quite alot, my only concern with using SS is i hate how it procs "one with the shadows" which defeats the purpose. Out of stealth damage on Sab could be be a little on the low side but hopefully if at-wills get a small boost this will fix this.
Scound i first thought was really boring to play but after giving it more testing it is actually really quite fun. Again, you need to slot SS to be able to combine the stealth crit bonus with the skullcracker to stack some nice damage. Also i dont understand why people say the other two paths get better lifesteal, on scound there are few mobs in IWD that actually drain me below 80% and im only 14k GS. You just need to make sure you chain your stuns together properly and not waste our now powerful dazing strike on an already dazed target.
Exec probably the least interesting of the three but huuuuge damage potential even with lower GS like mine (14k). This is the assassin class, always use lashing from stealth followed up by as much damage as you can then in 6 seconds that piercing bomb goes off for 50% of all the damage you just did. Once again, slot SS to get the most out of this path.
Survivability: Dodge rolls and in and out of stealth are our 'tank'. Dodge rolls are still not working right, but when they do there is definatly the option of specing into the dodge roll feats for extra stealth and faster stam recovery. When you play any of these paths you MUST dodge roll. Dont just stand there like all the other sheep cookie cutter classes playing this game. TR is the funnest class because we must stay mobile and be utilizing stealth to add to our survivability. (and it looks cool and pisses GWF off in pvp)
Also: has anyone noticed master infiltrator is giving more than 15% run speed boost?
So to me the icing on our new TR cake would be:
At wills drain 7.5% stealth
OR
At wills replenish stealth (while out of stealth)
At wills animation sped up, base damage boosted 10%.
OR
Can attack while moving, each consecutive hit speeds up animation speed.
OR
DEX increases attack speed for TR (dex is very meh right now)
I tried now several Builds against the monsters in Icewinddale.
The highest damage alone on the mediocre monster (Greater HE, Level 62, Three Bars or Greater) is about 12.000 DPS instead 25.000 DPS against a Test Dummy.
The Scoundrel-Build is pretty nice because of the survivability, the stun and the damage i get additional on stunned targets. Sadly it's the build with the lowest DPS, around 7.500. But if you are a bit clumsy and need a sturdy Rogue or your group needs a bit more CC i think it's a good Feat-Tree.
The Vorpal-Build looks broken in my eyes (and should be fixed). He lacks greatly of damage because all the nice bonuses i get only while i am stealthed but the Vorpal-Build itself doesn't really support stealth. I tried to get the feat that gloaming cut can restore my Stealth and then got the Vorpal-T5. It worked but the damage was about 10.000. Sometimes i had peaks about 18.000 DPS because of some effects of gloaming cut and sometimes i got only 7.500. (most of the kind i was beaten to death with this build, and i really have no clue how this feat tree could ever work)
The Saboteur-Build is also pretty nice but feels a bit slow (because of gloaming cut). I like the mechanic behind it to get in and out of stealth, refill a bit of my cooldowns because of the feats and some bonuses while stealth is well thought. Because of stealth and a bit of dodge it has a good survivability. The DPS is about 12.000 in live combat and was the easiest to handle, after some training i could kill 3 shamans and two of the smaller level 62 monsters.
I still think the damage should be tweaked a lot. Yesterday i saw again that one of my GWF Guildmates made again an 300.000 Instant Damage hit.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
I like new changes a lot, its nice to have our TR back in pve content.
Here is my Sabouteur TR on preview. http://youtu.be/tD2F4SiMI0E
I finished Totem of Auril, which I couldnt before.
I tried some heroic encounters like yeti or wolves,
I did fine, but run out of time ;/
I dont have enough dps or I just play my TR wrong
The video looks pretty cool, I might like sab, but I really don't want to be perma, there's nothing more boring that continuously use gloaming cut my enemies while they stand there doing nothing and just use encounters for refills. You don't do it most of the time though.
The problem is that even if you try to be a semi-stealth or offensive rogue you end up on the lower end of the DPS-Meter. Like i said before the Executioneer Path need a fix. And in my opinion the basic trickster rogue feat path needs it as well to enhance the damage a bit. At the current situation i see an improvement in the pathes (Playstyle, Damage, etc.) but it still needs improvement.For example the action point gaining feat seems still bugged, it gives me 0 additonal action points or action points gaining...
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
For example the action point gaining feat seems still bugged, it gives me 0 additonal action points or action points gaining...
It appears to be working for me. Using Path of the Blade at 0 AP and doing nothing else while it runs nets me 24% AP. With Tactics slotted, I get 28% instead.
Not sure if this is a bug or working as intended Vengeance Pursuit: 2nd part does not activate when there is no clear line of sight (like theres a wall in the way)
If it is WAI, i suggest that 2nd part of VP should be able to activate through walls. Pretty lame if all it takes to stop us in our pursuit of bloody vengeance on a target we're tracking is a wall right?
I am bothered by sab tree in that I can now remain perma stealth more easily than I ever (don't need ss, b&S, II or anything) just using gloaming and lashing (or whatever I want to use). Granted this is against a stationary target and I am not maximizing my full damage potential but still I am hitting over 10k dps with 74% from GC, 13% from Shadowy Oportunity, and 12% from Lashing blade. There was no in and out of stealth when done this way, it was just in stealth forever. I happen to detest gloaming cut and perma stealth so I am biased, but does this seem odd to anyone else considering the point of the stealth changes?
I am bothered by sab tree in that I can now remain perma stealth more easily than I ever (don't need ss, b&S, II or anything) just using gloaming and lashing (or whatever I want to use). Granted this is against a stationary target and I am not maximizing my full damage potential but still I am hitting over 10k dps with 74% from GC, 13% from Shadowy Oportunity, and 12% from Lashing blade. There was no in and out of stealth when done this way, it was just in stealth forever. I happen to detest gloaming cut and perma stealth so I am biased, but does this seem odd to anyone else considering the point of the stealth changes?
It's not Sab.
It's GC.
Try using anything other than GC and see if u can putup the damage while staying in stealth.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It isn't just GC alone as it is also Sab and even though I can posses perma in other paths I would still need the GC feats from Sab but I would also need SS or B&S where with Sab I don't even need them (do on live though) and can simply do it with GC + anything.
Its way too fast now by default. Virtually no one has time to react or dodge if its coming. The activation speed should have been decreased at most 25%. With how fast it activates now, you can just run to someone, activate it, stealth for a few instant crit at wills and a lashing blade and its over for majority of people. Its way too easy and cheap feeling.
Wicked Reminder: I dont really see a point in the stealthed variant. With the ability to input Wicked Reminder in rapid succesion upon a target. Using the stealthed variant is kind of pointless. It saves you an extra second at most. With the reduced number of stacks. It takes no time at all to reach 3. Using a stealthed encounter for something else would be much better utilized. I'd recommend having Wicked Reminder inflict Piercing damage from stealth to make it more inclined to choose to use the stealthed variant since the damage would go straight through any defense. The damage wouldnt be much and its not something that can be repeatedly applied in quick succession easily and successfully given its stealthed and the short reach, meaning a target can retaliate while its being used as you have to be really close to your target.
Razor Action:
It feels so lackluster still. The damage is so poor. I would suggest increasing the damage and making the damage inflicted by this cause a bleeding debuff that applies that damage over a period of time ( which would require probably reversing seething knives to instead apply up to 50% of its total damage instantly)
Vengence Pursuit:
As I mentioned before it is still bad. A poor encounter. Its a poor mans deft strike with a meh CC immunity. Its way too conditional to be worthwhile using when there are much more easier and reliable methods to use other than this. Something about this needs to change. I still would perfer the old version of this encounter, without the CC immunity but no cooldown (or even very low cooldown like Wicked Reminder). As it stands now its just not worth even using given its unreliable and very conditional to even use. To even use the CC immunity part of it, you have to be waiting for one to even be coming, which means you're paying more attention looking out for a CC to actually use that part of the skill than doing other things you should be doing, and thats if the dagger is still even in place. Many times the dagger is gone without you knowing and trying to activate the skill just has you trying the throw the dagger again (because you think the person you marked is still marked when they arent anymore) and you end up getting hit with the CC anyway, where you would have just been better off dodging over trying to use it in the first place. Its just too clunky and condition, has always been and seems it always will be ever since the change made to it.
Path of the Blade
With how useful its made that it now hits more targets and its longer. It helps quite alot in pve. However this will also be a very painful annoyance in pvp. And with at wills no longer draining stealth, this alone will I feel make TR's borderline overpowered.
Whirlwind of Blades:
Now that this ability no longer penetrates all defenses (which I feel is good now), it feels kind of weak now.
Disheartening Strike:
It feels back into a good place now.
Shadowy Opportunity:
I'll say right now, this needs a clear internal cooldown. This is going to be bad news. I can hear the crying right now already. This will be worse than what the HR's got. I actually think Peircing Damage is alright for HR's given they're default melee damage isnt that high. But TR's melee damage is already quite high, especially from stealth. I actually dont think this feat was such a good idea. I'd say a different sort of feat should go here. Piercing damage should go to stealthed wicked reminder, where the entirety of the damage is considered piercing damage. I dont know if I even feel comfortable having the damage from this lessened if its inclined to stay.
To put into perspective, this is with none o my feats specced. This was just testing the encounters themselves without nothing else affecting them. Going to put my seperate input after setting some feats, I'm still looking over them, and deciding which ones to apply to my character.
My overall assessment so far is that TR's are back powerful again, but they borderline dangerously close to being more powerful than the days of the one shot Lashing Blades and shocking executions. But could be much worse, as theres now multiple variables. And I rather these get straightened now than have a flood of nerfs coming and a trash load of threads calling for nerfs.
Comments
“Ambusher's Haste” and “Shadowy Opportunity” – the piercing damage only activates when I have points on the two feats at the same time.
Bug: Scoundrel
Skullcracker dazes myself when I activate Lurker Assault daily
Feedback:
Give whisperknife some at-will that don't drain stealth. Whisperknife path is currently useless and don't contribute nothing to the variety of builds in game.
Reduce the stealth drain to 5% per at-will hit. Currently it drains so fast that we can't coordinate a single at-will spawn when we are under attack. The stealth drain from getting attacked and the drain for the at-will spawn makes stealth disappear in 2 seconds.
We need more survivability. The ITC changes are killing us to fast. Whisperknife was further without useless without some ITC and at-will from that can be used stealth.
We just can’t survive a CW or a GWF whitout stealth.,so please make us more resintent. And give us more control options. Makes smoke bomb a stun encounter and give the skill some damage.
Improves sly flourish cast speed. The at-will became useless without the scoundrel feat.
“Shadowy Opportunity” piercing damage must procs out of stealth to.
I fell the TR don’t have enough damage boost in comparison to CW or GWF.
Sorry for my terrible english...
I keep seeing people say that "with the availability of longer duration stealth there should be less damage, and with less duration stealth there should be more damage"...
Hello? Has anyone been on PTS lately? Saboteur currently has both the longest available stealth along with the ability to enter stealth far, far more frequently and the best damage capabilities of the three specs. The other two should be brought up to par, and if not, then what is the point of this "rework"? To make Saboteur the new replacement for Executioner on live?
I'm sorry, but Stealth availability is too low for the two remaining specs. it may not need as large of a buff as I suggested, but it does need one, without question.
Current Saboteur has more than enough duration already. Increasing the duration slightly, reducing the crit rate to 50% and adding in a decent damage buff would not make it OP... it would actually knock Saboteur down a peg in damage, and allow the other two specs to catch up a little. It might even have the potential to make Executioner the top damage dealer it should be, with Sab closely behind and Scoundrel at the bottom.
I tend to think that the hierarchy should be: Executioner in 1st place for Pure Damage, then Scoundrel in 2nd for Moderate Damage and Utility and finally Saboteur in 3rd for Moderate Damage and Stealth.
That said, I do agree with many of your points. But most often, in this game, I'll use stealth as a means to gain Combat Advantage for building back AP after using a daily. As a solo PvE player, it can often be difficult to gain combat advantage without using stealth or having a companion out to flank the enemy, and currently on PTS our only feat to increase AP gain is tied to having Combat Advantage... which means that the current function of stealth on PTS will, among other things, make using dailies far less frequent for any non-Saboteur spec who can't stay in or re-enter stealth anywhere near as often.
There are most definitely ways around this to make stealth more available to Scoundrel or Executioner, but those ways all involve selecting specific powers and/or class features and/or feats in order to do it. In the end we'd just be imitating Saboteur, so why bother to go any route other than Sab in that case? after all, they have all the stealth, and all the damage. Saboteur is for Mod5 what Executioner currently is on live. The single most recognized "best" spec that the majority will gravitate towards.
Just to be clear, I don't actually have a big problem with the current Saboteur spec. Actually I like it, it's been fun to play in my testing of it. I do however, have a big problem with the fact that the other two specs are lagging drastically behind it. I have a problem that Scoundrel is supposed to be the "tough, more survivable spec" and has to use two specs for increased life steal (on top of having 3 more for deflect and only one for control effects) instead of damage, and yet both Sab and Exe with their damage specs can heal more from life steal than Scoundrel.
Hmm... I hear you on that, especially in your idea of where the damage rankings should be and on how much Sab is getting boosted from being able to stay in the heavily buffed stealth.
As far as AP goes? I will miss scoundrel's action gain feat. end of story. Though I have to wonder if hitting on CCed enemies counts for CA, because, if so, then the smokebomb + dazing scoundrel (what I use for IWD HEs) could regen AP very quickly.
I agree on the pointlessness of the redundant lifesteal and deflect feats. Scoundrel should be the versatile one who stacks effects through dirty fighting and, as such, shouldn't need stealth as much. As a result, I've been running a hybrid on PTS to give me the T1 crit severity and T2 DR debuff of exe (I really would like for something like catspaw style to return). Consolidating the deflect and lifesteal feats (which really are pennies in the overall bucket) into one substantial feat each would be more beneficial. Also, see my response earlier to kweassa's suggestion of deflect builds stamina (don't really like that, but agree some of the excess should be swapped out). Executioner's still got the short end of the stick as spike damage doesn't make for a good fight with someone who happens to have multiple HDs' worth of health.
So, yes. stealth is a sticky issue, what with it having serious benefits, but one feat tree tailored to milk stealth more, which results in that one spec over-damaging the other two.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Smoke Bomb is still working too well; it is dazing everything inside the cloud, myself included. This is obviously not WAI and is hampering gameplay as the effect of using SB is, essentially, nullified
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Problem: TR now gets most of its damage from stealth which works for sab tree (this one is going well), however exec and scoundrel are forced to slot SS to be able to get the most out of these changes.
It is certainly different from the others. I don't mind it being different, though, but it still needs to be sorted out more. For the executioner it feels like you should not even use stealth except to follow with lashing or another encounter and it goes so fast that you cannot play around (except maybe move a little bit) as trying an attack or two before your encounter can waste the stealth.
- TR is permanently in stealth while moving, out of fight.
- the moment you attack, you are out of stealth
- More dodges and tricks to stun/ mess up targeting (clones) to increase survivability. ITC as cc immunity and damage reduction (no full immunity). More dodges for more 'proactive' survival
- obviously more damage with crit and high spikes
- cannot re-enter stealth for 10 seconds after being in combat (to avoid easy escapes)
-one path being the current perma with more stealth but dots/ low damage dispatched over time (kind of low damage 'tank'/harrasser). The closer you are to target, the longer stealth lasts. When you get far, stealth drains fast to avoid easy escape and force skillful evading gameplay while in combat, avoiding cheap tactics like attack-get away-attack endlessly. Gap closer sort of marauder rush so TR can get close to ranged classes and engage in close combat. Per ma style but in mele e range with no in-out play. You decide to fight, you can't get away as you please.
Scoundrel needs either a further Lifesteal boost or a DPS boost. IMO it's filling a similar role to the Combat HR and should have comparable performance. Currently this is not the case.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I think more survivality is needed.
For me, i tested several builds now on the Preview Server and get my DPS to 22.000-24.000. On the Live Server i have now ~15.000 DPS. For me it's a great DPS increase and on the Live Server i am the one that is dying the least because i can dodge, and dodge makes me immun to anything and i don't have the feeling that ITC is "nerfed" too much.
The only thing i didn't tested was the Wisperknife Path...
How about a defensesive buff that specificifically targets aoe damage. It fits in line with existing rogue history with evasion. It would also help a lot with primary pve bane for tr (boss doing a giant free circle)
You could even call the feat evasion.
The main issue for me is not the lower DPS but more the lack of survivability. While the Scoundrel has tools that are very useful against single targets, against larger groups of strong mobs the inability to enter stealth as frequently combined with the lower incoming LS heals means lower survivability and opportunity to remain on target and dealing damage.
There is no doubt that overall (for PvE at least) the Sab path is significantly superior to both Scoundrel and Executioner.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I'll start filming the same HEs played through with both a MI/melee Scoundrel, and a WK/ranged Scoundrel. In turn, in all friendly spirit and for the sake of sharing information to help provide better information to our fellow TR players, I would like to humbly request if I could see how you are faring with the Sab build in those same HEs in form of video recording - if possible.
I know it is a lot to ask, but it would be meaningful just what level of performance/clear time/ease of combat you consider to be so much 'significantly superior' over the Scoundrel, if we can visually compare just how much we're doing, side-by-side... and to see if the Scoundrel method I am using can match it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I have tested Saboteur, Scroundel and Exectioner with Master Infiltrator. The main problem is stealth (obviously). Devolopers said that they want to limit perma-stealth. So the first modification is "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack". By this change, stealth with TR is useless. Infact although I have a complete profound set (+30% stealth) and improved cunning sneak (+20%), the real duration of stealth, in combat, is by roughly 1-2 second using at-will power. Thus any player cannot use stealth with at will power. I suggest 2 adjustment:
1) increase the recharge time of the encounter powers that grant stealth (bait and switch and shadow strike), erasing the "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack", or (not both) ,
2) to extend the application of tenacious concealment also to the damage the player deals in combat (now it is applied only to the damage the player receives), manteining the "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack".
With reference to feats:
a) Sobouter: is totally useless. There is not sufficient stealth to allow a balancing combat in stealth. ;
b) Executioner: stealth is used only to have a more powerful attack, but if you are not able to kill your enemy with one shot...
c) Scroundel: is interesting, because is a path based on daze and more survivability. I think is the only playable feat.
I hope I was helpful to improve the system.
Well on the target dummy this feat works, but out in the world it does not. I had stealthed and used dazing strike on a dire polar bear at full hp and did a 30k crit. I then lowered his hp to near death and restealthed and did another dazing strike for another 30k crit. It seems last moments is not working as it states.
Sab has excellent damage and if you slot SS you will be in and out of stealth quite alot, my only concern with using SS is i hate how it procs "one with the shadows" which defeats the purpose. Out of stealth damage on Sab could be be a little on the low side but hopefully if at-wills get a small boost this will fix this.
Scound i first thought was really boring to play but after giving it more testing it is actually really quite fun. Again, you need to slot SS to be able to combine the stealth crit bonus with the skullcracker to stack some nice damage. Also i dont understand why people say the other two paths get better lifesteal, on scound there are few mobs in IWD that actually drain me below 80% and im only 14k GS. You just need to make sure you chain your stuns together properly and not waste our now powerful dazing strike on an already dazed target.
Exec probably the least interesting of the three but huuuuge damage potential even with lower GS like mine (14k). This is the assassin class, always use lashing from stealth followed up by as much damage as you can then in 6 seconds that piercing bomb goes off for 50% of all the damage you just did. Once again, slot SS to get the most out of this path.
Survivability: Dodge rolls and in and out of stealth are our 'tank'. Dodge rolls are still not working right, but when they do there is definatly the option of specing into the dodge roll feats for extra stealth and faster stam recovery. When you play any of these paths you MUST dodge roll. Dont just stand there like all the other sheep cookie cutter classes playing this game. TR is the funnest class because we must stay mobile and be utilizing stealth to add to our survivability. (and it looks cool and pisses GWF off in pvp)
Also: has anyone noticed master infiltrator is giving more than 15% run speed boost?
So to me the icing on our new TR cake would be:
At wills drain 7.5% stealth
OR
At wills replenish stealth (while out of stealth)
At wills animation sped up, base damage boosted 10%.
OR
Can attack while moving, each consecutive hit speeds up animation speed.
OR
DEX increases attack speed for TR (dex is very meh right now)
The highest damage alone on the mediocre monster (Greater HE, Level 62, Three Bars or Greater) is about 12.000 DPS instead 25.000 DPS against a Test Dummy.
The Scoundrel-Build is pretty nice because of the survivability, the stun and the damage i get additional on stunned targets. Sadly it's the build with the lowest DPS, around 7.500. But if you are a bit clumsy and need a sturdy Rogue or your group needs a bit more CC i think it's a good Feat-Tree.
The Vorpal-Build looks broken in my eyes (and should be fixed). He lacks greatly of damage because all the nice bonuses i get only while i am stealthed but the Vorpal-Build itself doesn't really support stealth. I tried to get the feat that gloaming cut can restore my Stealth and then got the Vorpal-T5. It worked but the damage was about 10.000. Sometimes i had peaks about 18.000 DPS because of some effects of gloaming cut and sometimes i got only 7.500. (most of the kind i was beaten to death with this build, and i really have no clue how this feat tree could ever work)
The Saboteur-Build is also pretty nice but feels a bit slow (because of gloaming cut). I like the mechanic behind it to get in and out of stealth, refill a bit of my cooldowns because of the feats and some bonuses while stealth is well thought. Because of stealth and a bit of dodge it has a good survivability. The DPS is about 12.000 in live combat and was the easiest to handle, after some training i could kill 3 shamans and two of the smaller level 62 monsters.
I still think the damage should be tweaked a lot. Yesterday i saw again that one of my GWF Guildmates made again an 300.000 Instant Damage hit.
Here is my Sabouteur TR on preview.
http://youtu.be/tD2F4SiMI0E
I finished Totem of Auril, which I couldnt before.
I tried some heroic encounters like yeti or wolves,
I did fine, but run out of time ;/
I dont have enough dps or I just play my TR wrong
The problem is that even if you try to be a semi-stealth or offensive rogue you end up on the lower end of the DPS-Meter. Like i said before the Executioneer Path need a fix. And in my opinion the basic trickster rogue feat path needs it as well to enhance the damage a bit. At the current situation i see an improvement in the pathes (Playstyle, Damage, etc.) but it still needs improvement. For example the action point gaining feat seems still bugged, it gives me 0 additonal action points or action points gaining...
It appears to be working for me. Using Path of the Blade at 0 AP and doing nothing else while it runs nets me 24% AP. With Tactics slotted, I get 28% instead.
Vengeance Pursuit: 2nd part does not activate when there is no clear line of sight (like theres a wall in the way)
If it is WAI, i suggest that 2nd part of VP should be able to activate through walls. Pretty lame if all it takes to stop us in our pursuit of bloody vengeance on a target we're tracking is a wall right?
Butters TR PVP
It's not Sab.
It's GC.
Try using anything other than GC and see if u can putup the damage while staying in stealth.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
No run speed bonus at all.
Feedback:
Dazing Strike:
Its way too fast now by default. Virtually no one has time to react or dodge if its coming. The activation speed should have been decreased at most 25%. With how fast it activates now, you can just run to someone, activate it, stealth for a few instant crit at wills and a lashing blade and its over for majority of people. Its way too easy and cheap feeling.
Wicked Reminder:
I dont really see a point in the stealthed variant. With the ability to input Wicked Reminder in rapid succesion upon a target. Using the stealthed variant is kind of pointless. It saves you an extra second at most. With the reduced number of stacks. It takes no time at all to reach 3. Using a stealthed encounter for something else would be much better utilized. I'd recommend having Wicked Reminder inflict Piercing damage from stealth to make it more inclined to choose to use the stealthed variant since the damage would go straight through any defense. The damage wouldnt be much and its not something that can be repeatedly applied in quick succession easily and successfully given its stealthed and the short reach, meaning a target can retaliate while its being used as you have to be really close to your target.
Razor Action:
It feels so lackluster still. The damage is so poor. I would suggest increasing the damage and making the damage inflicted by this cause a bleeding debuff that applies that damage over a period of time ( which would require probably reversing seething knives to instead apply up to 50% of its total damage instantly)
Vengence Pursuit:
As I mentioned before it is still bad. A poor encounter. Its a poor mans deft strike with a meh CC immunity. Its way too conditional to be worthwhile using when there are much more easier and reliable methods to use other than this. Something about this needs to change. I still would perfer the old version of this encounter, without the CC immunity but no cooldown (or even very low cooldown like Wicked Reminder). As it stands now its just not worth even using given its unreliable and very conditional to even use. To even use the CC immunity part of it, you have to be waiting for one to even be coming, which means you're paying more attention looking out for a CC to actually use that part of the skill than doing other things you should be doing, and thats if the dagger is still even in place. Many times the dagger is gone without you knowing and trying to activate the skill just has you trying the throw the dagger again (because you think the person you marked is still marked when they arent anymore) and you end up getting hit with the CC anyway, where you would have just been better off dodging over trying to use it in the first place. Its just too clunky and condition, has always been and seems it always will be ever since the change made to it.
Path of the Blade
With how useful its made that it now hits more targets and its longer. It helps quite alot in pve. However this will also be a very painful annoyance in pvp. And with at wills no longer draining stealth, this alone will I feel make TR's borderline overpowered.
Whirlwind of Blades:
Now that this ability no longer penetrates all defenses (which I feel is good now), it feels kind of weak now.
Disheartening Strike:
It feels back into a good place now.
Shadowy Opportunity:
I'll say right now, this needs a clear internal cooldown. This is going to be bad news. I can hear the crying right now already. This will be worse than what the HR's got. I actually think Peircing Damage is alright for HR's given they're default melee damage isnt that high. But TR's melee damage is already quite high, especially from stealth. I actually dont think this feat was such a good idea. I'd say a different sort of feat should go here. Piercing damage should go to stealthed wicked reminder, where the entirety of the damage is considered piercing damage. I dont know if I even feel comfortable having the damage from this lessened if its inclined to stay.
To put into perspective, this is with none o my feats specced. This was just testing the encounters themselves without nothing else affecting them. Going to put my seperate input after setting some feats, I'm still looking over them, and deciding which ones to apply to my character.
My overall assessment so far is that TR's are back powerful again, but they borderline dangerously close to being more powerful than the days of the one shot Lashing Blades and shocking executions. But could be much worse, as theres now multiple variables. And I rather these get straightened now than have a flood of nerfs coming and a trash load of threads calling for nerfs.