I completely agree with fangredwater. Stealth is distinctive ability of TR class. Without effective stealth,speed and damage there is no meaning of making a TR. For instance ranger class has double blades, stealth ability, faster strikes with blades, wider attack radius, assassinate like marauder strike, marauder's escape that I've seen very effective in Pvp, powers that need less action points, summons that attack behalf of them (I don't know the name of that ability that summon thorn like thing that attack like a radius weapon) and make difficult to go near them with an assassin. Just because of it we started to see more ranger class character acting and dressing like rogue and sadly they seem much more effective.Not just against the ranger class, rogue became inferior to any other classes.All these unfairness against the rogue made rogue needless and decreased the threat level to the ground
Faster At-wills with more utility
Increase all the animation speeds.
Make Duelist Furry give us deflect with increased hits.
Gloaming Cut is slow, and boring, but can hit like a rock. I would actually prefer something less because it already has a great utility of adding back stealth.
Dodges
More dodges (or fix the stamina issue) and shorter dodges
Stat Ratings
Make dexterity mean something for a TR over Strength and Charisma. Right now both of those mean more in test. Make dexterity increase our damage, not strength. Or give us a feat like Weapon Finesse that makes Dex be our damage attribute.
Executioner
I think this is actually lacking now. Right now I think Sabo actually does more sustained damage, AND has greater ability to stay alive because of going back into stealth sooner. Executioner was doing well with first changes, but now that T5 feat only applies to 1 target, I think the lack of getting stealth up and not enough damage, makes executioner less functional.
I have loved the changes to the Executioner Paragon Path, they feel very true and blue to the actually DnD Class...now about this Whisperknife.
First of all looking at the two powers we get
Disheartening Strike- I just plan don't like how this power plays out. I have always played WK as using my ranged attacks until I can get close with my melee at-will. Burst downing my enemy with at-wills then returning to stealth and attacking from a distance. So, what I would like to see from DS is more a -punch- in my initial throw. Maybe some damage scaling with weapons damage? Just something that makes me want to apply it. I like the damage debuff- to the enemy- but honestly that is usless to me, since I am at range and hey, he ain't touching me anyways. Or Maybe the first strike could apply a daze or a small CC? Like a Daze maybe or an Interrupt on initial cast?. I mean come on the attack animation shows you throwing it at THEIR HEAD! Give us something or replace that animation.
Vengeful Pursuit- I am in-LOVE with the quality of live changes really, these are so great the power feels a lot less -clunky- and more fluid. What I would still like is that the first cast STUNS no matter what. It's more in line with the actual DnD Power I assume you took this from. What I would like to see is more %DMG increase, that might even be furthered increased it the enemy attack the player after the initial case. I mean you called it Vengeful for a reason? I feel like there should be some retaliation effect to it.
Also another thing WK are suppose to use posion on their weapon. I would maybe like to see a slotted passive that adds either a DoT posion effect to our At-Wills or a flat posion dmg to our At-Will. This I think would provide a possible. Something like this:
Poison Proficiency: This slotted passive adds stackable posion damage when using your At-Wills and encounters to your enemies Max X Stacks per target. AOE reduce the Stacks by X amount.
I think this would help with the damage the WK Paragon path is needing, but in a fun and interesting way. Adding a bit more to our DoT DPS, and providing something unique to the WK in the process.
Those are my feedback on the power. I am really looking forward to possible spec-ing back into the WK tree. As of right now, as far as playstyle and power. The MI just has it beat. So I like so see something that makes me go "YES" to the confirm page on the Paragon.
I tried a few specs against the enemies in the new well of dragons map and I don't know if they enemies are too easy, or the passives are a lot better than before, but I feel like I'm not doing a very good job with powers and synergies and still I end up fights with most of my health back.
I'll try in IWD instead and see how I do there.
EDIT: I hope they fix the dodge issue, it's working very weird right now, if you have your full stamina it uses 50% but lets you dodge with less than 50% of your stamina as well.
I tried a few specs against the enemies in the new well of dragons map and I don't know if they enemies are too easy, or the passives are a lot better than before, but I feel like I'm not doing a very good job with powers and synergies and still I end up fights with most of my health back.
I'll try in IWD instead and see how I do there.
EDIT: I hope they fix the dodge issue, it's working very weird right now, if you have your full stamina it uses 50% but lets you dodge with less than 50% of your stamina as well.
Welcome to the world of every other class besides perhaps DC(before M5 changes). Still waiting on that dodge change as well.
FEEDBACK: WK Daily, Seething Knives feat
This paragon feat is still not tweaked concerning the 15% stealth depletion changes. The amount of stealth you gain per each attack made while HK effect lingers is 5%. The amount you lose is 15%, so that's actually a 10% stealth loss per attack... which defeats the purpose of this feat.
I suggest the following changes:
Turn of stealth depletion completely while HK effect lingers, so attacking with your powers may correctly refill stealth 5% per attack
Alternately, the Seething Knives effect may simply be changed into something that resembles Lurker's Assault, so attacking would still reduce the stealth by 15%, but not attacking will regenerate stealth naturally at a quick rate
The final, and easiest option IMO, would be that Seething Knives simply refills your stealth 25% base, and then further refills it by a set amount of 15/30/45/60/75% per rank, so a basic HK will refill 25% stealth, Seething Knives HK will instantly refill it, and attacks made after HK will simply deplete stealth as usual
BUG: DAZE EFFECT
In some cases, applying a daze effect to your opponent, will for some reason daze yourself. In my experience, this seems to be related with Skull Cracker.. particularly if you're close to the target that is being dazed.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As some others have indicated I feel that these need to be reconsidered and altered. I realize that they may have value to the saboteur but they offer little to nothing and could seldom even be considered or justified by the scoundrel or executioner (especially the executioner, a WK scoundrel may have some value in them but not a melee scoundrel).
Regarding the stealth extended armor, I feel this really needs to be addressed as it can lead to feedback that can be mostly incorrect and dependent entirely upon these gear choices. Most testers are not considering the play style for the class without this armor and without improved cunning sneak. In such cases stealth is extremely volatile and seldom in effect and cannot be afforded to be wasted on positioning (hence sneak attack has almost no value -- not to mention we get this early and cannot even utilize it until level 10). I really feel that the stealth extended armor effect needs to be removed entirely and replaced with something else.
I think that if a faster movement speed while in stealth is genuinely felt valuable enough to some and appropriate enough to the devs that it should be innate to stealth itself or that the feat can be changed to affect movement speed in general (i.e. even while not in stealth since it has been mentioned that the TR does not feel particularly nimble in general).
Tenacious Concealment could be replaced with something defensive while in stealth, like control resistance, deflection % increase, defense % increase, critical resistance, etc with the reasoning that it is harder to accurately attack something you cannot effectively see, but still not impossible.
Improved Cunning Sneak, I am not quite sure what to replace it with, but the normal stealth duration could be increased naturally by 1 second to make up for whatever this was replaced with. I feel that by extending stealth naturally by 1 second you address the issue of those that build more to remain in stealth (since they will be refreshing stealth by various means (i.e. capstone from scoundrel, shadow strike, bait and switch, invisible infiltrator) and that such will make up for the loss in Improved Cunning Sneak and also the loss in the extension of stealth from the armor. Improved Cunning Sneak could be changed to provide a small movement bonus while in stealth and/or a small chance to dodge/avoid an attack while in stealth (if such can be coded) or something else appropriate or entirely different altogether (such as something that is still felt missing from all paragons/paths of the TR).
I have been playing Scoundrel some on preview and I must say it has been a lot of fun. I call it the "Poor man's CW" as it plays like a funner, weaker, less damaging, less safe, but ultimately more active and much funner CW. I even caught myself thinking "I don't even care if it sucks compared to other classes as it sure is a heck of a lot of fun to play".
FEEDBACK: WK Daily, Seething Knives feat
This paragon feat is still not tweaked concerning the 15% stealth depletion changes. The amount of stealth you gain per each attack made while HK effect lingers is 5%. The amount you lose is 15%, so that's actually a 10% stealth loss per attack... which defeats the purpose of this feat.
I suggest the following changes:
Turn of stealth depletion completely while HK effect lingers, so attacking with your powers may correctly refill stealth 5% per attack
Alternately, the Seething Knives effect may simply be changed into something that resembles Lurker's Assault, so attacking would still reduce the stealth by 15%, but not attacking will regenerate stealth naturally at a quick rate
The final, and easiest option IMO, would be that Seething Knives simply refills your stealth 25% base, and then further refills it by a set amount of 15/30/45/60/75% per rank, so a basic HK will refill 25% stealth, Seething Knives HK will instantly refill it, and attacks made after HK will simply deplete stealth as usual
BUG: DAZE EFFECT
In some cases, applying a daze effect to your opponent, will for some reason daze yourself. In my experience, this seems to be related with Skull Cracker.. particularly if you're close to the target that is being dazed.
I was having the same issue with being dazed while using my smoke bomb. I drop smoke bomb and now I'm dazed for a short time. Please fix that. I think it was related to Skull Cracker as well.
Faster At-wills with more utility
Increase all the animation speeds.
Make Duelist Furry give us deflect with increased hits.
Gloaming Cut is slow, and boring, but can hit like a rock. I would actually prefer something less because it already has a great utility of adding back stealth.
Dodges
More dodges (or fix the stamina issue) and shorter dodges
Stat Ratings
Make dexterity mean something for a TR over Strength and Charisma. Right now both of those mean more in test. Make dexterity increase our damage, not strength. Or give us a feat like Weapon Finesse that makes Dex be our damage attribute.
Executioner
I think this is actually lacking now. Right now I think Sabo actually does more sustained damage, AND has greater ability to stay alive because of going back into stealth sooner. Executioner was doing well with first changes, but now that T5 feat only applies to 1 target, I think the lack of getting stealth up and not enough damage, makes executioner less functional.
I did a test with Advanced Combat Tracker and as Sab i did 3.9m in a 3m period, while as executioner i did 4.9m in a 3min period. so no, executioner is not lacking in sustained dps compared to sab. it is compared to DC however...
I did a test with Advanced Combat Tracker and as Sab i did 3.9m in a 3m period, while as executioner i did 4.9m in a 3min period. so no, executioner is not lacking in sustained dps compared to sab. it is compared to DC however...
yeah DC right now is just ridiculous, sad thing is i have still seen some whinge about the changes. they have godmode ffs!
I did a test with Advanced Combat Tracker and as Sab i did 3.9m in a 3m period, while as executioner i did 4.9m in a 3min period. so no, executioner is not lacking in sustained dps compared to sab. it is compared to DC however...
I just tested single target against a dummy with Sabo vs. Executioner.
Maybe I need to rephrase what I said before. It's not that executioner is severely lacking in damage, it's that it isn't above any beyond that of Sabo. Plus, Sabo gives you more utility (increased Stealth duration = better survival).
I would like congratulate you and the rest of the developers for bringing this changes and improvements. We respectfully bring the following issues to your attention. Thank you in advance for your kind consideration
Bait and Switch: lack of usefulness both in pvp and pve. Smoke Bomb: it also stun the caster, it lacks damage, utility and speed to be desirable to use both in pve and pvp At-Wills: they are lacking in speed and power other class even have debuff. Executioner: this should be the "Big guns" but its under performing compared to Saboteur. Scoundrel: the daze is good but it is still lacking in terms of tools to survive, higher deflect and lifesteal. Dexterity: more deflect from this stat. Intelligence: combat advantage damage from this stat. Vitality: we appreciate if this stat will also give us armor penetration like other class. Impossible to Catch: additional movement speed, immunity to roots and cdr perhaps?
*I noticed that TR is under performing and less likely to survive compared to other class in PVE making them unwanted in dungeon raids could you please help us in this matter.
I'd like to know a couple things. First, how did you do that much more damage than me against a dummy in the same period of time. I actually used the same set-up as you, except I used WR in my Sabo test, because it hits fast and restores stealth (part of that tree). I did use SS for the Exe).
Oh... you used DF. Adding DF messes with your data and comparrison since you only used it on one build.
I was using GC on both. The problem with using DF is that it's nearly impossible now to use it in a dungeon because you no longer are in stealth with it to land, and no ITC immunity.
EDIT:
I just did a test with your skills (using DF with the Executioner build), and did 2,700,000.
I'd like to know what exactly you were doing that allowed you to do 4,900,000 in 3 min against a single target dummy. I am a maxed out TR with Legendary everything (weapon, belt, arts) and have max stats.
so is this the best single target damage in game?^^
My ideas so far
Sly Flourish:Increase attack speed 30% (or whatever speed GWF does sure strike in determination mode) and give stacking deflect bonuses per consecutive hit up to 10-15% (could be too much if we get better passive deflect bonuses). This actually makes 'deflect' more sensible as you are attacking you use your weapons to deflect. Can use while moving at reduced damage 20% with enhanced deflect. Moving + Dual wielding daggers = more realistic and dynamic deflect mechanics. Even if one of these features got added id be very happy.
I mean, have you watched Sly Flourish animation closely? its not very sly.
Duelists Flurry:+20% base damage (DF is really UP in test server), Increase attack speed of first two strikes by 50% and allow attack while moving. Final animation gives full immunity.
Duelists Flurry Alternative: +20% base damage, remove one of the wind up attacks, increased attack speed of wind up, halve the flurry. This way it still does the same damage over time, but is easier to land and you dont waste most of your flurry by having the target walk away while you swing at the air. (wind up attack speed increased to right amount so its the same dps overall)
Gloaming: Rework the entire thing, this is the most boring at will ever. Perhaps make it so it does not target but works more like a charge (running or leaping, not ammo charges) and passes you right through your target and can hit multiple targets. Speed up animation speed, slightly less damage?
CoS: Needs more damage per cumulative dagger. Charges recharge based on recovery stats.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
Encounter: Bait and Switch (trickster rogue) It would be nice if this encounter gave off more threat per trick tick on monsters.
Currently some monsters just avoid it (most monsters)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
So, to sum everything up and summarize a suggestion to the Scoundrel feats;
T1
Roll with the Punches: increase the deflection chance to 1/2/3/4/5% please
Bloody Brawler: Redundant. Let's try replacing it with a feat which further increases your stamina regeneration rate by 10%, and reduces the amount of stamina required to dodge by 4/8/12/16/20%
T2
Survivor: Please change the threshold to less than 40% HP
T3
Savage Blows: Redundant. Replace it with a feat that provides 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina bar regenerated upon a successful deflect
So basically, we put an extra stamina regeneration/dodge stamina cost reduction feat at T1, so other trees may also access it if they wish. If we scale the stamina bar at 100, the old dodges used to cost 50, the new dodges (intended) are now 33, and with this feat a 25% reduction if 5 points invested to it, making it around 25 cost, giving 4 dodges from the get-go.
Then we place a deflect→stamina mechanism at T3, so it remains inaccessible to other builds that chose other paths upto its capstone.
IMO this will increase the TR defense capability as more people might decide to choose the T1 feat, so all TRs who choose this will have at least more dodges, and then the Scoundrel path could make even further use of it through the [deflect=stamina regen=more dodge] mechanism I've proposed.
I like your suggestions for substitutions, but I think that scoundrel, while having excellent CC now, takes far too long to finish its targets. I've been running a hybrid build, with the exe increased crit severity and DR debuff, to compensate slightly. That being said, I like your suggested revision to bloody brawler very much - extra stealth regen and dodge efficiency fits the scoundrel archetype well.
The one thing really missing from the archetype is the dirty hit - not the one that dazes or stuns, but the one that gets past your guard. Instead of your T3 gain stamina upon deflect (as I don't think scoundrel will need to be dodging that much), how about giving an at-will, say, sly flourish, some DR penetration (1/2/3/4/5%, with the possibility of stacking (3x?)) or, to emphasize the CC role, make it a DR debuff vs CCed targets.
This would give pure scoundrels more damage up front, further party contributions, and an incentive to use SF over GC or DF, or even more of a CC role (be careful about making them too reliant upon CC, though).
For survivor, well, I'm not quite sure whether to suggest it be improved or overhauled. It doesn't appeal to me as it's conditional upon %HP and it's an additional deflect boost (just give us 1 good one, like your revised T1 suggestion). If it's going to be improved, I'd say stacking 2/4/6/8/10% when under 50% HP as that last bit can drop quickly for low-HP PvEers, although that might be too much. If it is to be overhauled, I'd suggest making it the sole lifesteal buff with a good % increase (1/2/3/4/5%).
I don't want to overbuff scoundrel as it already has decent survivability and excellent CC. I just find it somewhat lacking in the dps department and think that one or two survival feats could be swapped for debuff or other damage-related feats (not piercing or other pure damage).
Feedback: Rogue Class Rogues have been my favorite class in D&D for as long as I can remember, and I'm glad to see they are finally getting some non-negative attention from the developers. As such, I've had many ideas on how to further improve the Rogue class in ways I feel are needed, beyond just having new epic feats and a few minor power tweaks. So here are a few suggestions that I think could help overall:
Suggestion: *New* Class Mechanic: Reaping Strike
All Rogue damage abilities now have a chance to add a bleed to their target. This bleed can stack up to 10 times.
Reason: There are many. but first and foremost being that we're using blades. Our enemies should be bleeding from our blade attacks. Second, I don't consider this to be a damage buff, but rather as a way to opening more paths for varied builds instead of people feeling they need to spam Duelist's Flurry in order to get the most bang for their buck.
Also, as far as I'm aware, we are the only class aside from DC that doesn't have an innate Class Mechanic now, and DC is getting one in Mod5... so why shouldn't we rogues? This class mechanic also plays into other changes I have in mind.
Suggestion: Stealth EDITED: Reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 10% and Add a 25% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. Using encounters from stealth will still remove you from stealth and will also fully deplete your stealth bar.
Suggestion: *New* Heroic Feat: Weapon Finesse (replacement for Twilight Adept heroic feat)
Dexterity now accounts for 20/40/60/80/100% of your bonus damage instead of strength
Suggestion: First Strike Class Feature
This class feature no longer provides a damage bonus for the first attack of combat (since an equivalent damage bonus would now be baked into the stealth mechanic). Instead, this feature makes your first attack when starting combat gives you combat advantage against your target for 6 seconds and increases your deflection rating and defense against that target by 6% for 6 seconds.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration will be increased by 2 additional seconds. the bonus to deflection and defense are doubled if your initial attack is made from stealth.
Suggestion: Sneak Attack Class Feature
When the rogue initiates combat with this class feature active, they are granted combat advantage to the target and up to 3 additional targets within 15 feet of the target for 6 seconds. the rogues movement speed is also increased by 10% for 6 seconds and the initial target will suffer a 10% penalty to damage resistance.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration is increased by 2 additional seconds. The bonus to movement speed is doubled if your initial attack is made while in stealth.
Suggestion: Duelist's Flurry The current method of this attack being slash>twirl blade>slash>twirl blade>flurry is far too slow, and always has been.
This is how I picture a reworked Duelist's Flurry: "You slash your opponent with two lightning fast consecutive attacks leaving them stunned for a brief second and granting you combat advantage... and just to let your enemy know you have them right where you want them, you give your blade a quick twirl into position as you set the stage to unleash a devastating flurry of attacks on your helpless foe."
So this version would be more like: slash.slash>target is stunned for 1sec while you twirl blade>flurry
note* Due to the above listed Class Mechanic, this power would no longer have a baked in chance to cause bleeding. All bleeds would be applied based on the class mechanic, instead of being tied to only this power.
Suggestion: Sly Flourish
The sly nature of your flourish allows each attack with this power to cause a second unseen attack on your target that deals an additional 25% damage and slightly reduces their defense to further attacks from your flourish. this effect can stack up to 5 times and reduces your targets defense against sly flourish by 2% per stack.
So, there's most of them. I cut a few out in order to keep things reasonable, and I felt these were some of the most beneficial. Cheers!
EDIT: Just to keep things in one place for easier reference, I'll be updating this post to reflect any new feedback. I'm also linking it in my Sig.
Suggestion: *New* Scoundrel Epic Feat: Dirty Fighting (replacement for Mocking Gesture)
Your attacks on Dazed or otherwise controlled targets now have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to Critically Strike. Taking this feat will cause the 100% critical chance from stealth to no longer affect you.
Reason: Saboteur spec can achieve 100% crit rate inside stealth, and can maintain stealth very easily to achieve the bonus crit capability. This change would help bring Scoundrel spec up to par using the tools that are available to it while still offering a different play style that is not reliant on stealth.
Feedback: Rogue Class Rogues have been my favorite class in D&D for as long as I can remember, and I'm glad to see they are finally getting some non-negative attention from the developers. As such, I've had many ideas on how to further improve the Rogue class in ways I feel are needed, beyond just having new epic feats and a few minor power tweaks. So here are a few suggestions that I think could help overall:
Suggestion: *New* Class Mechanic: Reaping Strike
All Rogue damage abilities now have a chance to add a bleed to their target. This bleed can stack up to 10 times.
Reason: There are many. but first and foremost being that we're using blades. Our enemies should be bleeding from our blade attacks. Second, I don't consider this to be a damage buff, but rather as a way to opening more paths for varied builds instead of people feeling they need to spam Duelist's Flurry in order to get the most bang for their buck.
Also, as far as I'm aware, we are the only class aside from DC that doesn't have an innate Class Mechanic now, and DC is getting one in Mod5... so why shouldn't we rogues? This class mechanic also plays into other changes I have in mind.
Suggestion: Stealth
Do away with stealth drain over time, but make stealth auto-disable if active for 30 seconds without initiating combat. reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 7.5% and Add a 35% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. also, reduce the critical chance from 100% in stealth to 50% and allow that bonus to stack with a characters critical strike rating. Using encounters from stealth will still remove you from stealth and will also fully deplete your stealth bar.
Suggestion: *New* Heroic Feat: Weapon Finesse (replacement for Twilight Adept heroic feat)
Dexterity now accounts for 20/40/60/80/100% of your bonus damage instead of strength
Suggestion: First Strike Class Feature
This class feature no longer provides a damage bonus for the first attack of combat (since an equivalent damage bonus would now be baked into the stealth mechanic). Instead, this feature makes your first attack when starting combat gives you combat advantage against your target for 6 seconds and increases your deflection rating and defense against that target by 6% for 6 seconds.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration will be increased by 2 additional seconds. the bonus to deflection and defense are doubled if your initial attack is made from stealth.
Suggestion: Sneak Attack Class Feature
When the rogue initiates combat with this class feature active, they are granted combat advantage to the target and up to 3 additional targets within 15 feet of the target for 6 seconds. the rogues movement speed is also increased by 10% for 6 seconds and the initial target will suffer a 10% penalty to damage resistance.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration is increased by 2 additional seconds. The bonus to movement speed is doubled if your initial attack is made while in stealth.
Suggestion: Duelist's Flurry The current method of this attack being slash>twirl blade>slash>twirl blade>flurry is far too slow, and always has been.
This is how I picture a reworked Duelist's Flurry: "You slash your opponent with two lightning fast consecutive attacks leaving them stunned for a brief second and granting you combat advantage... and just to let your enemy know you have them right where you want them, you give your blade a quick twirl into position as you set the stage to unleash a devastating flurry of attacks on your helpless foe."
So this version would be more like: slash.slash>target is stunned for 1sec while you twirl blade>flurry
note* Due to the above listed Class Mechanic, this power would no longer have a baked in chance to cause bleeding. All bleeds would be applied based on the class mechanic, instead of being tied to only this power.
Suggestion: Sly Flourish
The sly nature of your flourish allows each attack with this power to cause a second unseen attack on your target that deals an additional 25% damage and slightly reduces their defense to further attacks from your flourish. this effect can stack up to 5 times and reduces your targets defense against sly flourish by 2% per stack.
So, there's most of them. I cut a few out in order to keep things reasonable, and I felt these were some of the most beneficial. Cheers!
FEEDBACK: Consider to give us 30% more base stealth in order to allow us to change our only usefull set of gear: the profound set.
Is not like we can use infinite at will anymore so it should not be a crazy idea.
We are forced to use an outdated set to be viable and this is just an indirect way to nerf us.
Consider to not let shadow strike proc one with the shadows please, is a no sense.
GLOAMING CUT: It feel really slow and from a dps standpoint it's really lacking compared to every other at will. Consider to haste up a bit the animation
I agree with general faster at wills, specially sly flourish to make it more useful
and also BaS needs to be fixed, high level enemies don't even notice the dummy.
Stop Stop Stop a sec here now. First off im glad that TRs getting a boost but this is some insane stuff! This is my opinion from a pvp perspective only. Gloamingcut might be slow to land, but if its done from stealth (which it always will be landed from if the TR knows what its doing) It can deal 20K dmg with out a problem, 2 gloaming cut can kill someone with 40K hp in pvp. Did some testing yesterday, if the TR had Daily up it was GG in 3-4 sec without seeing the guy. If he didnt use daily 2 maybe 3 gloaming cuts vere enough, and to track down a TR in stealth is more or less impossible since they atm have endless of dodges LOL.
I just dont hope this is WAI. This will cause lower geard player to leave pvp for good, getting 1 shotted from an atwill from an enemy u cant even see. And LB is insane too with right setup and with first strike, here are a some data from the log:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! xxxxx deals 30123 (101640) Physical Damage to you with Lashing Blade.
xxxxx deals 14095 (18211) Physical Damage to you with Shadow of Demise
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! xxxxx deals 59843 (92762) Physical Damage to you with Lashing Blade.
As you can see the first one was deflected and i survived, untill SoD proc and killed me, next one i was not that lucky ^^
Feedback: Rogue Class Rogues have been my favorite class in D&D for as long as I can remember, and I'm glad to see they are finally getting some non-negative attention from the developers. As such, I've had many ideas on how to further improve the Rogue class in ways I feel are needed, beyond just having new epic feats and a few minor power tweaks. So here are a few suggestions that I think could help overall:
Suggestion: *New* Class Mechanic: Reaping Strike
All Rogue damage abilities now have a chance to add a bleed to their target. This bleed can stack up to 10 times.
Reason: There are many. but first and foremost being that we're using blades. Our enemies should be bleeding from our blade attacks. Second, I don't consider this to be a damage buff, but rather as a way to opening more paths for varied builds instead of people feeling they need to spam Duelist's Flurry in order to get the most bang for their buck.
Also, as far as I'm aware, we are the only class aside from DC that doesn't have an innate Class Mechanic now, and DC is getting one in Mod5... so why shouldn't we rogues? This class mechanic also plays into other changes I have in mind.
Suggestion: Stealth
Do away with stealth drain over time, but make stealth auto-disable if active for 30 seconds without initiating combat. reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 7.5% and Add a 35% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. also, reduce the critical chance from 100% in stealth to 50% and allow that bonus to stack with a characters critical strike rating. Using encounters from stealth will still remove you from stealth and will also fully deplete your stealth bar.
Suggestion: *New* Heroic Feat: Weapon Finesse (replacement for Twilight Adept heroic feat)
Dexterity now accounts for 20/40/60/80/100% of your bonus damage instead of strength
Suggestion: First Strike Class Feature
This class feature no longer provides a damage bonus for the first attack of combat (since an equivalent damage bonus would now be baked into the stealth mechanic). Instead, this feature makes your first attack when starting combat gives you combat advantage against your target for 6 seconds and increases your deflection rating and defense against that target by 6% for 6 seconds.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration will be increased by 2 additional seconds. the bonus to deflection and defense are doubled if your initial attack is made from stealth.
Suggestion: Sneak Attack Class Feature
When the rogue initiates combat with this class feature active, they are granted combat advantage to the target and up to 3 additional targets within 15 feet of the target for 6 seconds. the rogues movement speed is also increased by 10% for 6 seconds and the initial target will suffer a 10% penalty to damage resistance.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration is increased by 2 additional seconds. The bonus to movement speed is doubled if your initial attack is made while in stealth.
Suggestion: Duelist's Flurry The current method of this attack being slash>twirl blade>slash>twirl blade>flurry is far too slow, and always has been.
This is how I picture a reworked Duelist's Flurry: "You slash your opponent with two lightning fast consecutive attacks leaving them stunned for a brief second and granting you combat advantage... and just to let your enemy know you have them right where you want them, you give your blade a quick twirl into position as you set the stage to unleash a devastating flurry of attacks on your helpless foe."
So this version would be more like: slash.slash>target is stunned for 1sec while you twirl blade>flurry
note* Due to the above listed Class Mechanic, this power would no longer have a baked in chance to cause bleeding. All bleeds would be applied based on the class mechanic, instead of being tied to only this power.
Suggestion: Sly Flourish
The sly nature of your flourish allows each attack with this power to cause a second unseen attack on your target that deals an additional 25% damage and slightly reduces their defense to further attacks from your flourish. this effect can stack up to 5 times and reduces your targets defense against sly flourish by 2% per stack.
So, there's most of them. I cut a few out in order to keep things reasonable, and I felt these were some of the most beneficial. Cheers!
I'm backing this - esp the DR reduction & bleed aspects. I think the stealth changes would make stealth too powerful, though. (I'm still used to and expect stealth being unending, but breaking at the first attack, which is more in line with D&D; it would work decently if it had been programmed that way from the start, but making that change now would cause an uproar)
I know nice decision for others party members in random group: if you see tr in group, just vote kick (describe in notes "useless").
Now TR can very long post in LFG chat: "TR ... LFG ...". After Mod5 your fingers can rest, because no chances to join normal group. So, you must be nice guild member and maybe...
For me playing a underdog class is fulfilling, what TR lacks I try to compensate in strategy, critical thinking and skill something that you cannot enjoy with a cookie cutter class that all you need to do is press the keyboard and bwalah! you are virtually powerful and almighty! but truth be told the player is just a dummy behind a mummy. Other class are receiving improvements I want my favorite class to receive the same love and respect
I'd like to know a couple things. First, how did you do that much more damage than me against a dummy in the same period of time. I actually used the same set-up as you, except I used WR in my Sabo test, because it hits fast and restores stealth (part of that tree). I did use SS for the Exe).
Oh... you used DF. Adding DF messes with your data and comparrison since you only used it on one build.
I was using GC on both. The problem with using DF is that it's nearly impossible now to use it in a dungeon because you no longer are in stealth with it to land, and no ITC immunity.
EDIT:
I just did a test with your skills (using DF with the Executioner build), and did 2,700,000.
I'd like to know what exactly you were doing that allowed you to do 4,900,000 in 3 min against a single target dummy. I am a maxed out TR with Legendary everything (weapon, belt, arts) and have max stats.
Note, I did not use any daily powers during the testing.
as I have stated before, our dps is not the issue. its our ability to survive so we CAN dps that is the issue. not only that, but the ramp up time of rogue dps vs other classes is just stupid, especially when bosses move around a lot (VT for example)
Also, stealth depletion from taking damage is too much when it also depletes from doing damage.
Stop Stop Stop a sec here now. First off im glad that TRs getting a boost but this is some insane stuff! This is my opinion from a pvp perspective only. Gloamingcut might be slow to land, but if its done from stealth (which it always will be landed from if the TR knows what its doing) It can deal 20K dmg with out a problem, 2 gloaming cut can kill someone with 40K hp in pvp. Did some testing yesterday, if the TR had Daily up it was GG in 3-4 sec without seeing the guy. If he didnt use daily 2 maybe 3 gloaming cuts vere enough, and to track down a TR in stealth is more or less impossible since they atm have endless of dodges LOL.
I just dont hope this is WAI. This will cause lower geard player to leave pvp for good, getting 1 shotted from an atwill from an enemy u cant even see. And LB is insane too with right setup and with first strike, here are a some data from the log:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! xxxxx deals 30123 (101640) Physical Damage to you with Lashing Blade.
xxxxx deals 14095 (18211) Physical Damage to you with Shadow of Demise
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! xxxxx deals 59843 (92762) Physical Damage to you with Lashing Blade.
As you can see the first one was deflected and i survived, untill SoD proc and killed me, next one i was not that lucky ^^
For PVE sure this madness in PVP i say hell no!
Interesting. Why from 101640 still 30123 dmg after proc deflect with 75% severity. 25% - 25410 dmg.
Note, I did not use any daily powers during the testing.
as I have stated before, our dps is not the issue. its our ability to survive so we CAN dps that is the issue. not only that, but the ramp up time of rogue dps vs other classes is just stupid, especially when bosses move around a lot (VT for example)
Also, stealth depletion from taking damage is too much when it also depletes from doing damage.
Well, we see - you with legendary horn (10% increase dmg you DF) get from DF bleed 28% dmg, I on last CN boss (live server) 49% dmg w/o weapon artifact. With at-wills stealth drain DF not best choice. I just pause refining my horn artifact.
Can I make a suggestion for this thread? When people leave feedback, can you start your post with PVP or PVE? It would help this PVE player to not have to sift through a bunch of posts that turn out to be PVP-oriented (and I am sure would do the same for PVPers).
what's the point in increasing the DPS of TRs, if permastealth is still there? Basically we went from at-will cheap damage spam from stealth, to permastealth--->DPS bursts--->back to stealth, which is pretty much the same.
It's pointless to make a class high DPS but squishy if then you give tools to avoid damage 99% of the time just by staying either in stealth or immunity.
Just my impression, but i get the idea you guys went for the cheap route again. What about a good mix of some stealth and good old dodges? Give more dodges but does not allow players to burst DPS from stealth and then go right back into stealth while dodge rolling away.
Combat should be more about dodging/ anticipating, and less about passive stuff such as stealth, immunity, regeneration of HPs, unavoidable easy passive DPS from procs (intimidation, piercing blade, SS exc...).
Note, I did not use any daily powers during the testing.
The only noticeable difference between our gear/stats is Dexterity. My stuff is all Legendary, using Dread Armor, and my Power is 10,9. I currently have a Dex belt. I wonder if Strength really adds that much damage? Also, did you do this with the latest test server changes to Shadow of Demise? I see it's your #2 damage, and I don't think mine was close to #2.
as I have stated before, our dps is not the issue. its our ability to survive so we CAN dps that is the issue. not only that, but the ramp up time of rogue dps vs other classes is just stupid, especially when bosses move around a lot (VT for example)
Also, stealth depletion from taking damage is too much when it also depletes from doing damage.
The only noticeable difference between our gear/stats is Dexterity. My stuff is all Legendary, using Dread Armor, and my Power is 10,9. I currently have a Dex belt. I wonder if Strength really adds that much damage? Also, did you do this with the latest test server changes to Shadow of Demise? I see it's your #2 damage, and I don't think mine was close to #2.
Just chiming in. if you look at the parse, it says Test Dummy 10/19/2014. which means the test was done yesterday. aslong as the change was active yesterday, then yes this was with the latest changes.
Just chiming in. if you look at the parse, it says Test Dummy 10/19/2014. which means the test was done yesterday. aslong as the change was active yesterday, then yes this was with the latest changes.
Thanks for noticing. I didnt think to look at the parse date.
I have stated multiple times already in this thread that Dexterity is actually the worse attribute for the TR now on test, which is completely bonkers when we're supposed to the Dex based class. I have been waiting on these changes to determine what's best in the Str vs Dex vs Cha debate.
Comments
I truly think we are almost there.
Faster At-wills with more utility
Increase all the animation speeds.
Make Duelist Furry give us deflect with increased hits.
Gloaming Cut is slow, and boring, but can hit like a rock. I would actually prefer something less because it already has a great utility of adding back stealth.
Dodges
More dodges (or fix the stamina issue) and shorter dodges
Stat Ratings
Make dexterity mean something for a TR over Strength and Charisma. Right now both of those mean more in test. Make dexterity increase our damage, not strength. Or give us a feat like Weapon Finesse that makes Dex be our damage attribute.
Executioner
I think this is actually lacking now. Right now I think Sabo actually does more sustained damage, AND has greater ability to stay alive because of going back into stealth sooner. Executioner was doing well with first changes, but now that T5 feat only applies to 1 target, I think the lack of getting stealth up and not enough damage, makes executioner less functional.
First of all looking at the two powers we get
Disheartening Strike- I just plan don't like how this power plays out. I have always played WK as using my ranged attacks until I can get close with my melee at-will. Burst downing my enemy with at-wills then returning to stealth and attacking from a distance. So, what I would like to see from DS is more a -punch- in my initial throw. Maybe some damage scaling with weapons damage? Just something that makes me want to apply it. I like the damage debuff- to the enemy- but honestly that is usless to me, since I am at range and hey, he ain't touching me anyways. Or Maybe the first strike could apply a daze or a small CC? Like a Daze maybe or an Interrupt on initial cast?. I mean come on the attack animation shows you throwing it at THEIR HEAD! Give us something or replace that animation.
Vengeful Pursuit- I am in-LOVE with the quality of live changes really, these are so great the power feels a lot less -clunky- and more fluid. What I would still like is that the first cast STUNS no matter what. It's more in line with the actual DnD Power I assume you took this from. What I would like to see is more %DMG increase, that might even be furthered increased it the enemy attack the player after the initial case. I mean you called it Vengeful for a reason? I feel like there should be some retaliation effect to it.
http://dndtools.eu/classes/whisperknife/
Also another thing WK are suppose to use posion on their weapon. I would maybe like to see a slotted passive that adds either a DoT posion effect to our At-Wills or a flat posion dmg to our At-Will. This I think would provide a possible. Something like this:
Poison Proficiency: This slotted passive adds stackable posion damage when using your At-Wills and encounters to your enemies Max X Stacks per target. AOE reduce the Stacks by X amount.
I think this would help with the damage the WK Paragon path is needing, but in a fun and interesting way. Adding a bit more to our DoT DPS, and providing something unique to the WK in the process.
Those are my feedback on the power. I am really looking forward to possible spec-ing back into the WK tree. As of right now, as far as playstyle and power. The MI just has it beat. So I like so see something that makes me go "YES" to the confirm page on the Paragon.
I'll try in IWD instead and see how I do there.
EDIT: I hope they fix the dodge issue, it's working very weird right now, if you have your full stamina it uses 50% but lets you dodge with less than 50% of your stamina as well.
Welcome to the world of every other class besides perhaps DC(before M5 changes). Still waiting on that dodge change as well.
FEEDBACK: WK Daily, Seething Knives feat
This paragon feat is still not tweaked concerning the 15% stealth depletion changes. The amount of stealth you gain per each attack made while HK effect lingers is 5%. The amount you lose is 15%, so that's actually a 10% stealth loss per attack... which defeats the purpose of this feat.
I suggest the following changes:
Turn of stealth depletion completely while HK effect lingers, so attacking with your powers may correctly refill stealth 5% per attack
Alternately, the Seething Knives effect may simply be changed into something that resembles Lurker's Assault, so attacking would still reduce the stealth by 15%, but not attacking will regenerate stealth naturally at a quick rate
The final, and easiest option IMO, would be that Seething Knives simply refills your stealth 25% base, and then further refills it by a set amount of 15/30/45/60/75% per rank, so a basic HK will refill 25% stealth, Seething Knives HK will instantly refill it, and attacks made after HK will simply deplete stealth as usual
BUG: DAZE EFFECT
In some cases, applying a daze effect to your opponent, will for some reason daze yourself. In my experience, this seems to be related with Skull Cracker.. particularly if you're close to the target that is being dazed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As some others have indicated I feel that these need to be reconsidered and altered. I realize that they may have value to the saboteur but they offer little to nothing and could seldom even be considered or justified by the scoundrel or executioner (especially the executioner, a WK scoundrel may have some value in them but not a melee scoundrel).
Regarding the stealth extended armor, I feel this really needs to be addressed as it can lead to feedback that can be mostly incorrect and dependent entirely upon these gear choices. Most testers are not considering the play style for the class without this armor and without improved cunning sneak. In such cases stealth is extremely volatile and seldom in effect and cannot be afforded to be wasted on positioning (hence sneak attack has almost no value -- not to mention we get this early and cannot even utilize it until level 10). I really feel that the stealth extended armor effect needs to be removed entirely and replaced with something else.
I think that if a faster movement speed while in stealth is genuinely felt valuable enough to some and appropriate enough to the devs that it should be innate to stealth itself or that the feat can be changed to affect movement speed in general (i.e. even while not in stealth since it has been mentioned that the TR does not feel particularly nimble in general).
Tenacious Concealment could be replaced with something defensive while in stealth, like control resistance, deflection % increase, defense % increase, critical resistance, etc with the reasoning that it is harder to accurately attack something you cannot effectively see, but still not impossible.
Improved Cunning Sneak, I am not quite sure what to replace it with, but the normal stealth duration could be increased naturally by 1 second to make up for whatever this was replaced with. I feel that by extending stealth naturally by 1 second you address the issue of those that build more to remain in stealth (since they will be refreshing stealth by various means (i.e. capstone from scoundrel, shadow strike, bait and switch, invisible infiltrator) and that such will make up for the loss in Improved Cunning Sneak and also the loss in the extension of stealth from the armor. Improved Cunning Sneak could be changed to provide a small movement bonus while in stealth and/or a small chance to dodge/avoid an attack while in stealth (if such can be coded) or something else appropriate or entirely different altogether (such as something that is still felt missing from all paragons/paths of the TR).
I have been playing Scoundrel some on preview and I must say it has been a lot of fun. I call it the "Poor man's CW" as it plays like a funner, weaker, less damaging, less safe, but ultimately more active and much funner CW. I even caught myself thinking "I don't even care if it sucks compared to other classes as it sure is a heck of a lot of fun to play".
I was having the same issue with being dazed while using my smoke bomb. I drop smoke bomb and now I'm dazed for a short time. Please fix that. I think it was related to Skull Cracker as well.
I did a test with Advanced Combat Tracker and as Sab i did 3.9m in a 3m period, while as executioner i did 4.9m in a 3min period. so no, executioner is not lacking in sustained dps compared to sab. it is compared to DC however...
yeah DC right now is just ridiculous, sad thing is i have still seen some whinge about the changes. they have godmode ffs!
I just tested single target against a dummy with Sabo vs. Executioner.
3 minutes Sabo: 2,243,000
3 minutes Exec: 2,193,000
Maybe I need to rephrase what I said before. It's not that executioner is severely lacking in damage, it's that it isn't above any beyond that of Sabo. Plus, Sabo gives you more utility (increased Stealth duration = better survival).
I would like congratulate you and the rest of the developers for bringing this changes and improvements. We respectfully bring the following issues to your attention. Thank you in advance for your kind consideration
Bait and Switch: lack of usefulness both in pvp and pve.
Smoke Bomb: it also stun the caster, it lacks damage, utility and speed to be desirable to use both in pve and pvp
At-Wills: they are lacking in speed and power other class even have debuff.
Executioner: this should be the "Big guns" but its under performing compared to Saboteur.
Scoundrel: the daze is good but it is still lacking in terms of tools to survive, higher deflect and lifesteal.
Dexterity: more deflect from this stat.
Intelligence: combat advantage damage from this stat.
Vitality: we appreciate if this stat will also give us armor penetration like other class.
Impossible to Catch: additional movement speed, immunity to roots and cdr perhaps?
*I noticed that TR is under performing and less likely to survive compared to other class in PVE making them unwanted in dungeon raids could you please help us in this matter.
so is this the best single target damage in game?^^
My ideas so far
Sly Flourish:Increase attack speed 30% (or whatever speed GWF does sure strike in determination mode) and give stacking deflect bonuses per consecutive hit up to 10-15% (could be too much if we get better passive deflect bonuses). This actually makes 'deflect' more sensible as you are attacking you use your weapons to deflect. Can use while moving at reduced damage 20% with enhanced deflect. Moving + Dual wielding daggers = more realistic and dynamic deflect mechanics. Even if one of these features got added id be very happy.
I mean, have you watched Sly Flourish animation closely? its not very sly.
Duelists Flurry:+20% base damage (DF is really UP in test server), Increase attack speed of first two strikes by 50% and allow attack while moving. Final animation gives full immunity.
Duelists Flurry Alternative: +20% base damage, remove one of the wind up attacks, increased attack speed of wind up, halve the flurry. This way it still does the same damage over time, but is easier to land and you dont waste most of your flurry by having the target walk away while you swing at the air. (wind up attack speed increased to right amount so its the same dps overall)
Gloaming: Rework the entire thing, this is the most boring at will ever. Perhaps make it so it does not target but works more like a charge (running or leaping, not ammo charges) and passes you right through your target and can hit multiple targets. Speed up animation speed, slightly less damage?
CoS: Needs more damage per cumulative dagger. Charges recharge based on recovery stats.
It would be nice if this encounter gave off more threat per trick tick on monsters.
Currently some monsters just avoid it (most monsters)
I like your suggestions for substitutions, but I think that scoundrel, while having excellent CC now, takes far too long to finish its targets. I've been running a hybrid build, with the exe increased crit severity and DR debuff, to compensate slightly. That being said, I like your suggested revision to bloody brawler very much - extra stealth regen and dodge efficiency fits the scoundrel archetype well.
The one thing really missing from the archetype is the dirty hit - not the one that dazes or stuns, but the one that gets past your guard. Instead of your T3 gain stamina upon deflect (as I don't think scoundrel will need to be dodging that much), how about giving an at-will, say, sly flourish, some DR penetration (1/2/3/4/5%, with the possibility of stacking (3x?)) or, to emphasize the CC role, make it a DR debuff vs CCed targets.
This would give pure scoundrels more damage up front, further party contributions, and an incentive to use SF over GC or DF, or even more of a CC role (be careful about making them too reliant upon CC, though).
For survivor, well, I'm not quite sure whether to suggest it be improved or overhauled. It doesn't appeal to me as it's conditional upon %HP and it's an additional deflect boost (just give us 1 good one, like your revised T1 suggestion). If it's going to be improved, I'd say stacking 2/4/6/8/10% when under 50% HP as that last bit can drop quickly for low-HP PvEers, although that might be too much. If it is to be overhauled, I'd suggest making it the sole lifesteal buff with a good % increase (1/2/3/4/5%).
I don't want to overbuff scoundrel as it already has decent survivability and excellent CC. I just find it somewhat lacking in the dps department and think that one or two survival feats could be swapped for debuff or other damage-related feats (not piercing or other pure damage).
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Rogues have been my favorite class in D&D for as long as I can remember, and I'm glad to see they are finally getting some non-negative attention from the developers. As such, I've had many ideas on how to further improve the Rogue class in ways I feel are needed, beyond just having new epic feats and a few minor power tweaks. So here are a few suggestions that I think could help overall:
Suggestion: *New* Class Mechanic: Reaping Strike
All Rogue damage abilities now have a chance to add a bleed to their target. This bleed can stack up to 10 times.
Reason: There are many. but first and foremost being that we're using blades. Our enemies should be bleeding from our blade attacks. Second, I don't consider this to be a damage buff, but rather as a way to opening more paths for varied builds instead of people feeling they need to spam Duelist's Flurry in order to get the most bang for their buck.
Also, as far as I'm aware, we are the only class aside from DC that doesn't have an innate Class Mechanic now, and DC is getting one in Mod5... so why shouldn't we rogues? This class mechanic also plays into other changes I have in mind.
Suggestion: Stealth
EDITED: Reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 10% and Add a 25% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. Using encounters from stealth will still remove you from stealth and will also fully deplete your stealth bar.
Suggestion: *New* Heroic Feat: Weapon Finesse (replacement for Twilight Adept heroic feat)
Dexterity now accounts for 20/40/60/80/100% of your bonus damage instead of strength
Suggestion: First Strike Class Feature
This class feature no longer provides a damage bonus for the first attack of combat (since an equivalent damage bonus would now be baked into the stealth mechanic). Instead, this feature makes your first attack when starting combat gives you combat advantage against your target for 6 seconds and increases your deflection rating and defense against that target by 6% for 6 seconds.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration will be increased by 2 additional seconds. the bonus to deflection and defense are doubled if your initial attack is made from stealth.
Suggestion: Sneak Attack Class Feature
When the rogue initiates combat with this class feature active, they are granted combat advantage to the target and up to 3 additional targets within 15 feet of the target for 6 seconds. the rogues movement speed is also increased by 10% for 6 seconds and the initial target will suffer a 10% penalty to damage resistance.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration is increased by 2 additional seconds. The bonus to movement speed is doubled if your initial attack is made while in stealth.
Suggestion: Duelist's Flurry
The current method of this attack being slash>twirl blade>slash>twirl blade>flurry is far too slow, and always has been.
This is how I picture a reworked Duelist's Flurry:
"You slash your opponent with two lightning fast consecutive attacks leaving them stunned for a brief second and granting you combat advantage... and just to let your enemy know you have them right where you want them, you give your blade a quick twirl into position as you set the stage to unleash a devastating flurry of attacks on your helpless foe."
So this version would be more like: slash.slash>target is stunned for 1sec while you twirl blade>flurry
note* Due to the above listed Class Mechanic, this power would no longer have a baked in chance to cause bleeding. All bleeds would be applied based on the class mechanic, instead of being tied to only this power.
Suggestion: Sly Flourish
The sly nature of your flourish allows each attack with this power to cause a second unseen attack on your target that deals an additional 25% damage and slightly reduces their defense to further attacks from your flourish. this effect can stack up to 5 times and reduces your targets defense against sly flourish by 2% per stack.
So, there's most of them. I cut a few out in order to keep things reasonable, and I felt these were some of the most beneficial. Cheers!
EDIT: Just to keep things in one place for easier reference, I'll be updating this post to reflect any new feedback. I'm also linking it in my Sig.
Suggestion: *New* Scoundrel Epic Feat: Dirty Fighting (replacement for Mocking Gesture)
Your attacks on Dazed or otherwise controlled targets now have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to Critically Strike. Taking this feat will cause the 100% critical chance from stealth to no longer affect you.
Reason: Saboteur spec can achieve 100% crit rate inside stealth, and can maintain stealth very easily to achieve the bonus crit capability. This change would help bring Scoundrel spec up to par using the tools that are available to it while still offering a different play style that is not reliant on stealth.
+1 on these changes, especially the at wills
Is not like we can use infinite at will anymore so it should not be a crazy idea.
We are forced to use an outdated set to be viable and this is just an indirect way to nerf us.
Consider to not let shadow strike proc one with the shadows please, is a no sense.
GLOAMING CUT: It feel really slow and from a dps standpoint it's really lacking compared to every other at will. Consider to haste up a bit the animation
and also BaS needs to be fixed, high level enemies don't even notice the dummy.
I just dont hope this is WAI. This will cause lower geard player to leave pvp for good, getting 1 shotted from an atwill from an enemy u cant even see. And LB is insane too with right setup and with first strike, here are a some data from the log:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! xxxxx deals 30123 (101640) Physical Damage to you with Lashing Blade.
xxxxx deals 14095 (18211) Physical Damage to you with Shadow of Demise
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! xxxxx deals 59843 (92762) Physical Damage to you with Lashing Blade.
As you can see the first one was deflected and i survived, untill SoD proc and killed me, next one i was not that lucky ^^
For PVE sure this madness in PVP i say hell no!
I'm backing this - esp the DR reduction & bleed aspects. I think the stealth changes would make stealth too powerful, though. (I'm still used to and expect stealth being unending, but breaking at the first attack, which is more in line with D&D; it would work decently if it had been programmed that way from the start, but making that change now would cause an uproar)
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
For me playing a underdog class is fulfilling, what TR lacks I try to compensate in strategy, critical thinking and skill something that you cannot enjoy with a cookie cutter class that all you need to do is press the keyboard and bwalah! you are virtually powerful and almighty! but truth be told the player is just a dummy behind a mummy. Other class are receiving improvements I want my favorite class to receive the same love and respect
Here is the parse of my damage
This is my gear.
Note, I did not use any daily powers during the testing.
as I have stated before, our dps is not the issue. its our ability to survive so we CAN dps that is the issue. not only that, but the ramp up time of rogue dps vs other classes is just stupid, especially when bosses move around a lot (VT for example)
Also, stealth depletion from taking damage is too much when it also depletes from doing damage.
Interesting. Why from 101640 still 30123 dmg after proc deflect with 75% severity. 25% - 25410 dmg.
Diana (15,4 DC)
BigHalf (15,5 GF)
Well, we see - you with legendary horn (10% increase dmg you DF) get from DF bleed 28% dmg, I on last CN boss (live server) 49% dmg w/o weapon artifact. With at-wills stealth drain DF not best choice. I just pause refining my horn artifact.
Diana (15,4 DC)
BigHalf (15,5 GF)
what's the point in increasing the DPS of TRs, if permastealth is still there? Basically we went from at-will cheap damage spam from stealth, to permastealth--->DPS bursts--->back to stealth, which is pretty much the same.
It's pointless to make a class high DPS but squishy if then you give tools to avoid damage 99% of the time just by staying either in stealth or immunity.
Just my impression, but i get the idea you guys went for the cheap route again. What about a good mix of some stealth and good old dodges? Give more dodges but does not allow players to burst DPS from stealth and then go right back into stealth while dodge rolling away.
Combat should be more about dodging/ anticipating, and less about passive stuff such as stealth, immunity, regeneration of HPs, unavoidable easy passive DPS from procs (intimidation, piercing blade, SS exc...).
The only noticeable difference between our gear/stats is Dexterity. My stuff is all Legendary, using Dread Armor, and my Power is 10,9. I currently have a Dex belt. I wonder if Strength really adds that much damage? Also, did you do this with the latest test server changes to Shadow of Demise? I see it's your #2 damage, and I don't think mine was close to #2.
I agree with you here.
Just chiming in. if you look at the parse, it says Test Dummy 10/19/2014. which means the test was done yesterday. aslong as the change was active yesterday, then yes this was with the latest changes.
Thanks for noticing. I didnt think to look at the parse date.
I have stated multiple times already in this thread that Dexterity is actually the worse attribute for the TR now on test, which is completely bonkers when we're supposed to the Dex based class. I have been waiting on these changes to determine what's best in the Str vs Dex vs Cha debate.