Nice buff, but this power needs to protect us from all sources of damage for 20%, not just ranged attacks. Make it also increase our deflection/mitigation by a small amount.
Thank you for the WK buffs so far, we're getting into something.
Feedback of changes and where TR sits currently in Preview.
Dazing strike - A very welcome change, especially the fast activation. It also opens up a solid array of options for a non-stealthed TR in PVP. DS is now a solid encounter and useful. If DS were a stun then I would be concerned about it's power in PVP but I think that as a daze it remains adequate without being too powerful.
Path of the blade - This power retains it's function and effectivness in PVE while being substantially reduced in it's annoyance factor and power in PVP. Exactly the kind of changes that need to happen.
Lashing blade - I am finding less and less reasons to slot this encounter on my bar. I am unsure how this power could be balanced to be useful in PVE without breaking it in PVP. In any case it doesn't need to deal more damage. Perhaps reducing the cooldown or adding a utility function to the power would be appropriate.
Impact shot - Still very weak and mostly useless. Perhaps adding a AOE burst effect would put it on the map for PVE without making it too powerful for PVP.
Bait and switch - This power is outdated, dead, and obsolete. I am finding no room for it in any situation on any feat path. Frankly if the stealth replenish portion of the power were removed that would be fine by me. It really needs to have a vast improvement in utility functions to be worth slotting, such as - Vastly reduced cooldown, immunity frames while casting, defensive stats boosted for rogue while it is active, and increased HP pool and threat generation of the dummy in PVE.
First strike - With this hopefully one-shotting equally geared squishies will go away. However, I think that rogues will still be able to one-shot lesser geared players, which is not a problem with the TR class alone. Nevertheless, I would expect for there to be some significant outcry when the updated TR goes live, and this is the first ability you should look at with future changes. More to the point I'd like to see it changed to something a bit more situationally useful than "alpha-strike" in PVP, but if you want to leave it here that's fine by me.
Sabotuer - Is starting to live up to the description painted on Page one of this thread. I by no means feel over-powered in PVE when using this path, but I am starting to feel like I could actually contribute solidly to a dungeon now. You might want to look at how Shadowy opportunity interacts with Bloodbath. I have done as much as 20k+ shadowy opportunity damage to a single target via bloodbath, and if that is indeed straight up unmitigated damage as it seems to be then there are concerns with that in PVP.
Scoundrel - Rather pleased with how this path turned out with the latest update. Is starting to live up to the description painted in Page one of this thread. The CC of this path is now adequate and it's main selling point. The toughness however, is not substantially noticeable. The damage as well also seems to be a bit lacking, which could be solved by doing something about the at-will situation. The thing I like most about this path is that while viable, it plays completely differently from saboteur, and I used different power set-ups between the two paths.
Executioner - I have not tested the updated changes to Exe, however, I will say this. The original shadow of demise was the only thing that allowed me to keep pace in the same circumstances as a Sabotuer. While the bug fix was entirely in order, changing Shadow of demise to single target only effectively gutted this feat path.
Final thoughts - TR is approaching adequate levels of performance PVE-wise as far as encounters and dailies go. However, it is lacking in Single target damage, which really should be it's niche role and something it has always been strong in. Single target encounters and dailies are.......underwhelming in PVE. In the past a large portion of rogue damage came from flurry, which is both rewarding and dynamic. While the simple solution would be to reduce stealth drain to 5% or less, perhaps the better option would be to make TR at-wills more useable out of stealth. Stealth adds survivability, increases the rogue's ability to connect with melee powers, and adds no small amount of damage. In order to bring at-wills to the same level as they were before stealth drain, they need to add all of the above while out of stealth - survivability, ability to connect, increased damage. This is currently the most pressing issue for the TR class in preview. Right now every at-will besides gloaming cut not only feels useless and sub-par, but it also feels like we are punished for using them.
Greetings Test-Mates and Devs,
I tried now the upper Feat Trea: Saboteur and was quite impressed.
In 1 minute test cycles i dealt up to ~1.200.000 Damage. To compare: i deal on the live Server ~890.000
It's a good damage increase and i only use GLOAMING CUT in this build. You can use Duelist Flurry in additon but it seems that it leads to an small DPS dropp while i use it unstealthed on the training puppet.
In an real battle duelist flurry is still usefull if you need a bit controll immunity and DOT on a Monster while stealth is regenerating.
Saboteur looks for me like the new PvE-Build. The reason is not only the higher damage, it's the handling of encounter powers. If you use an encounter you regenerate stealth which is important for your damage in this build and nothing is better as wicked reminder. Because you get every 15 Seconds the Buff "one with the shadows" which is activated by an encounter power.
That means, i am running out of stealth while i get this buff, hit with wicked reminder with the effect of fully debuff the monster (3 stacks = -21% armor = more damage for me and my group) get full stealth again AND a buff for 10 seconds to deal +20% more damage.
The really good thing is i have enough points left to get the Executioneer Feat "Arterial Cut" which gives me +15% more crit severity while stealthed.
The other side is: How is this build in PvP? An Bad thing could be, you are most of the time in stealth because you can use gloaming cut and it deals not a small amount of damage (12-30K). But on the other side, Gloaming Cut is a slow skill that draggs you automatically near the enemy player which means: You can see him and dodge away. But! it should be tested first. Sadly i got no Queue-Pop on the Test-Server for PvP.
Another thing is: I still want more Damage. I have an damage increase with this build, but it's still lower then the other classes. The 1.2 Million damage are around 16.000 DPS (so say the parser ACT) and i am an 18K GS TR with optimized stats and an similar equipped GWF can do around 23-25.000 DPS. A good enhancment could be: Give Gloaming Cut a small AoE template. Nothing really big only the range of this scissor like movement or give some feats or items with additional combat advantage bonus or we could get more Action Points Gaining to get faster in Lurker Assault or enhance Lurker Assault a bit more.
I really like this build because it feels like a real TR, most of the time i am invisible and dealing a good amount of damage.
Another personal preference in general for the TR from me would be: If am stealth i would get +10% movement speed because it is sometimes hard to avoid AoE Attacks from monsters without sacrificing the precious stealth.
To the dodging changes: I know they are not live, but i would more prefer that the dodge length is be untouched because it would dragg me too far away from my target. And 30% instead of 50% Stamina seems a bit too less. How about 40% and give me the 10% movement speed while stealthed?
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
From my experience on test server and from what people are saying about damage parses, it would seem there is still something missing to truly make the TR the top single target dps dealer.
Do something with the at wills and make stealth deplete slower with at will use. Oh and DCs desperately need their dps curbed ffs, why can a DC tank,heal,cc and DPS all in one build.
With the stealth meter drain per at-will attack, I feel that more changes are needed to be made for refilling stealth. Executioners pretty much have to slot shadowstrike as a refilling option. I'd be happy to have any of the changes below:
1.) Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate.
2.) at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit
3.) Third strike (flurry) of Duelist's Flurry counts as 1 attack so that it won't drain the whole meter
With the stealth meter drain per at-will attack, I feel that more changes are needed to be made for refilling stealth. Executioners pretty much have to slot shadowstrike as a refilling option. I'd be happy to have any of the changes below:
1.) Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate.
2.) at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit
3.) Third strike (flurry) of Duelist's Flurry counts as 1 attack so that it won't drain the whole meter
I believe the TR changes are now starting to enter a solid zone.
In case of Saboteuer, while many people were simply awed by the damage of Executioner in version1, some of the TRs who have been testing thoroughly have commented that it is their belief the Saboteuer's the most solid one of them all. With the reduced cooldown of OWTS I'd say this path is almost complete.
In case of the Scoundrel, it received the largest benefits of version2. The turn-out of this path is simply amazing... and equally amazing is the fact that the path comfortably fits both MIs and WKs well. The potential of this path applies differently to MIs and WKs in accordance with the innate differences between the two paragon paths, and thus MI Scoundrels are now quite amazing melees, while WK Scoundrels are the masters of harassment and fast paced in-and-out tactics. Every feat is now quite satisfying -- and even Concussive Strikes... or rather, especially Concussive Strikes.
Concussive Strikes now finally gives the TRs a much needed "silencer" power against ranged attacks or casting, allowing TRs to gain the initiative against ranged attackers. It was incredibly pleasant to find out that I, a WK with no CC breakers, could now escape the dreaded Icy Rays by; Stealth → Crit CoS → inflict daze. In moments of emergency, a desperate CoS stream of attacks pays off as a crit hit will momentarily daze your oppoenent, buying you precious 2.5 seconds to prepare yourself for the counter attack.
In a stealth fight against another TR, as you move around and search wildly for each other, a clandestine fling of a single CoS as your opponent passes by will now daze and momentarily pull him out of stealth, at which point you can fire off a VP mark to track him further and land a big hit, or simply decide to end his stealth with your own by flinging all CoS streams -- you and your opponent, both out of stealth, certain distance between the two -- good situation for a ranged TR.
While the Concussive Strikes daze may seem useless to some, the reality is much different: Concussive Strikes is now a must for any Scoundrel. The tactical worth of this feat, IMO, actually matches that of the capstone Skull Cracker.
I can't say much about the Executioner, as the style of this path does not agree with me well. My impression is the fighting style, rythm of the Executioner most closely matches the "old" TR tactics and moves. It has neither the deceptive and stylish rythm of the Saboteuer, nor does it have the technical and fluent CC tactics of the Scoundrel. The Executioner seems to play almost identically to the old TRs (especially old MI TRs familiar with the use of GC), but has the one-big-hit going for the path. Usually the fights I see a Saboteuer (Scoundrel builds are still rare in the preview) will have the upperhand all throughout the fight, but if it gets caught by that 1-big-hit, then the Executioner wins. Otherwise the Sabotuer does. I'll basically leave the judgement on Executioner paths/builds to other people more used to the path.
One thing is for certain. Now, all three paths are totally different in how they manage a fight. All three are unique, and all three have distinct strengths and weaknesses. When combined with the two different Paragons, effectively it can be said that we are given 6 different sub-type choices of the TR, 3 distinctly different MI types, and 3 distinctly different WK types. Every path plays it out differently, and it has been so much fun testing the different paths with other people.
2. THE NEW SCOUNDREL PATH
Now, since most of this version2 update concerns Scoundrels, I've already commented how much I enjoyed it, and how the CC aspect is now well represented in the TR.
However, there is still something left to be desired, and that is the other feats -- related to adding "strong defense" as a Scoundrel, seems actually redundant now. Particularly the Life Steal related feats.
I imagine the general intent behind the life steal related feats was to make the Scoundrel path sort of like the Combat path HR and Wilds Medicine, but it really doesn't seem to be working out that way.
As many of the players have mentioned, TRs are still much too weak in terms of defense. In this aspect, the best comparison would be with HRs -- same leather-grade armour, and yet while TRs are generally considered squishy, the HRs are considered extremely tough.
Why is this so? I believe the reasons are:
(1) HRs have a variety of buffs for self-protection. TRs do not.
(2) HRs have a deflection rate that averages higher than even TRs.
(3) HRs have self-sustenance(healing) that synergizes with deflect. TRs do not.
(4) HRs have much more active number of dodges.
I've been giving it thought as to how the general defense level of the TR can be upgraded, but not the levels of the HR (which is often considered OP by many, especially in its ability to endlessly heal itself constantly). "Borrowing" the deflect=heal method would be obviously the simplest, as it essentially benchmarks the HRs in its primary defense mechanism. However, I don't think that's the path TRs should go.
Instead, I was thinking about a feat which might sort of work out like the HR defense mechanism Wild Medicine, but instead return stamina for TRs instead of HP.
The reasoning behind this, is tying up successful deflection action with stamina gain will result in the TR defense mechanisms synergizing with each other. Gaining HP would just make it OP since for example power like ITC would be much too powerful with heals, but if the TRs gained stamina for successful deflects, then there would be more dodges to be used -- increasing both the defense of the TR as well as mobility.
It does not directly add HP, so a damaged TR is still damaged. There won't be any bullshi* like the HR where you damage him and he actually deflects and heals more from it (like DoTs) -- but instead the more the successful deflects the more you will be able to dodge and move around faster.
Therefore, adding this function to the Scoundrel path, instead of the redundant Life Steal related feats, would benefit the TRs much more in PvP and PvE.
So, to sum everything up and summarize a suggestion to the Scoundrel feats;
T1
Roll with the Punches: increase the deflection chance to 1/2/3/4/5% please
Bloody Brawler: Redundant. Let's try replacing it with a feat which further increases your stamina regeneration rate by 10%, and reduces the amount of stamina required to dodge by 4/8/12/16/20%
T2
Survivor: Please change the threshold to less than 40% HP
T3
Savage Blows: Redundant. Replace it with a feat that provides 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina bar regenerated upon a successful deflect
So basically, we put an extra stamina regeneration/dodge stamina cost reduction feat at T1, so other trees may also access it if they wish. If we scale the stamina bar at 100, the old dodges used to cost 50, the new dodges (intended) are now 33, and with this feat a 25% reduction if 5 points invested to it, making it around 25 cost, giving 4 dodges from the get-go.
Then we place a deflect→stamina mechanism at T3, so it remains inaccessible to other builds that chose other paths upto its capstone.
IMO this will increase the TR defense capability as more people might decide to choose the T1 feat, so all TRs who choose this will have at least more dodges, and then the Scoundrel path could make even further use of it through the [deflect=stamina regen=more dodge] mechanism I've proposed.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
With the stealth meter drain per at-will attack, I feel that more changes are needed to be made for refilling stealth. Executioners pretty much have to slot shadowstrike as a refilling option. I'd be happy to have any of the changes below:
1.) Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate.
2.) at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit
3.) Third strike (flurry) of Duelist's Flurry counts as 1 attack so that it won't drain the whole meter
Truthfully speaking, that's going to break the current system and would totally push the TR back to the OP levels it was.
If this is made possible, you don't even need a Saboteuer to 'return back to stealth at whim'. A few dodges and a stream of CoS will instantly put you back to stealth, as well as something like a Daze - DF also puts you right back to stealth, complete with all the high damage encounters to use at your disposal.
IMO the new direction is set. You either use at-wills from stealth and risk the stealth depletion, or you use at-wills outside of stealth.
I think it is pretty clear the messages coming from the devs are;
"No more steady and continuous stream of attacks from stealth, where you can attack at whim but the enemy cannot fight back. If you want to damage someone hard from stealth, then you will use it once you do. If you don't want to risk losing stealth and risk the dangers of being exposed, then your attacks are greatly limited at the price of your safety."
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Bug: Skullcracker The pop text description for this powers buff icon incorrectly cites the effect for the Saboteur capstone feat, stating that once every 15 seconds, using an encounter power will refill your stealth meter
Bug: First Strike Once slotted, this class feature incorrectly retains its damage bonus on the character after it has been un-slotted in favor of a different class feature. The damage bonus persists until after the first attack is made in an encounter or the player changes zones
Feedback: Scoundrel Please keep in mind that this feedback pertains specifically to my build, which is identical on live and PTS aside from the feat allocations for the reworked Scoundrel feats. I made no changes to powers, stats, etc between the two. My first impression was that there is virtually no change in basic combat efficacy between my live build in Scoundrel spec and the new Scoundrel spec on PTS. listed below are the main differences I've found through hours of testing and parsing combat logs in ACT:
on PTS I deal less DPS and overall damage in a given amount of time using Scoundrel spec, compared to live
on PTS the DPA of all my attacks have been reduced by 300 to over 1,000 damage, depending on the power, using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I am ever so slightly more resilient than on live using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I have noticeably more control effects happening compared to live
on PTS my AP generation is severely hampered compared to live
on PTS stealth is utterly and completely useless for Scoundrel spec, it's not even worth the minor effort to use it
on PTS heroic feats like Action Advantage, Twilight Adept and Improved Cunning Sneak now feel like they are totally worthless for Scoundrels
On PTS even with the damage increases to Deft Strike and Blitz, those powers still yield reduced damage for Scoundrel spec compared to live (as do other powers)
Overall, I don't feel like the new Scoundrel spec is an improvement, just a different way of doing the same thing in a slightly less efficient way. I was hoping to find at least a moderate improvement to damage. I expect the scoundrel to use underhanded tactics to daze or otherwise hinder their opponents, sure, but usually that comes with a big payoff by exploiting those tactics to cause some real damage. We got one feat for increased damage on controlled opponents... one... and while it's a good feat, it only brings the spec almost up to par with what's currently available on live, damage-wise. The loss of AP generation is, IMO, also a huge hit to the spec. While I love the new style and extra control effects, I'm left wondering if it's enough to make the loss in damage and AP generation "worth it".
For reference, all testing of the Scoundrel spec on PTS was done on a Master Infiltrator with 15k GS and 21 STR, 21 DEX, 21 CHA using Duelist's Flurry and Gloaming Cut at-wills, Tactics and Skillful Infiltrator class features, Dazing Strike, Deft Strike and Blitz encounters. Mainly invested in Power (5.5k) and Crit (3k) with moderate investment (1,300-1,700) in ArPen, Recovery, Deflection, Life Steal and Defense.
This is the same setup I've used on Live for several months now and it's worked well for me. However I'm finding it may be hard to justify staying with Scoundrel in Mod5 if it remains in its current state. I began testing Saboteur last night for comparison and the difference is like night and day. I still need to get more solid testing in before relaying feedback, but with Saboteur spec, I'm taking dread ring mobs out in less than half the time I did with Scoundrel spec. I really want to like the new Scoundrel but it just feels lacking to me so far.
The other side is: How is this build in PvP? An Bad thing could be, you are most of the time in stealth because you can use gloaming cut and it deals not a small amount of damage (12-30K). But on the other side, Gloaming Cut is a slow skill that draggs you automatically near the enemy player which means: You can see him and dodge away. But! it should be tested first. Sadly i got no Queue-Pop on the Test-Server for PvP.
It's hard. More players in IWD open zones and prefer 1v1.
CC build TR work, but its like under-CW. Want CC - build CW. Btw, no CC DC (chains just broken now - no root).
Bug: Skullcracker The pop text description for this powers buff icon incorrectly cites the effect for the Saboteur capstone feat, stating that once every 15 seconds, using an encounter power will refill your stealth meter
Bug: First Strike Once slotted, this class feature incorrectly retains its damage bonus on the character after it has been un-slotted in favor of a different class feature. The damage bonus persists until after the first attack is made in an encounter or the player changes zones
Feedback: Scoundrel Please keep in mind that this feedback pertains specifically to my build, which is identical on live and PTS aside from the feat allocations for the reworked Scoundrel feats. I made no changes to powers, stats, etc between the two. My first impression was that there is virtually no change in basic combat efficacy between my live build in Scoundrel spec and the new Scoundrel spec on PTS. listed below are the main differences I've found through hours of testing and parsing combat logs in ACT:
on PTS I deal less DPS and overall damage in a given amount of time using Scoundrel spec, compared to live
on PTS the DPA of all my attacks have been reduced by 300 to over 1,000 damage, depending on the power, using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I am ever so slightly more resilient than on live using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I have noticeably more control effects happening compared to live
on PTS my AP generation is severely hampered compared to live
on PTS stealth is utterly and completely useless for Scoundrel spec, it's not even worth the minor effort to use it
on PTS heroic feats like Action Advantage, Twilight Adept and Improved Cunning Sneak now feel like they are totally worthless for Scoundrels
On PTS even with the damage increases to Deft Strike and Blitz, those powers still yield reduced damage for Scoundrel spec compared to live (as do other powers)
Overall, I don't feel like the new Scoundrel spec is an improvement, just a different way of doing the same thing in a slightly less efficient way. I was hoping to find at least a moderate improvement to damage. I expect the scoundrel to use underhanded tactics to daze or otherwise hinder their opponents, sure, but usually that comes with a big payoff by exploiting those tactics to cause some real damage. We got one feat for increased damage on controlled opponents... one... and while it's a good feat, it only brings the spec almost up to par with what's currently available on live, damage-wise. The loss of AP generation is, IMO, also a huge hit to the spec. While I love the new style and extra control effects, I'm left wondering if it's enough to make the loss in damage and AP generation "worth it".
For reference, all testing of the Scoundrel spec on PTS was done on a Master Infiltrator with 15k GS and 21 STR, 21 DEX, 21 CHA using Duelist's Flurry and Gloaming Cut at-wills, Tactics and Skillful Infiltrator class features, Dazing Strike, Deft Strike and Blitz encounters. Mainly invested in Power (5.5k) and Crit (3k) with moderate investment (1,300-1,700) in ArPen, Recovery, Deflection, Life Steal and Defense.
This is the same setup I've used on Live for several months now and it's worked well for me. However I'm finding it may be hard to justify staying with Scoundrel in Mod5 if it remains in its current state. I began testing Saboteur last night for comparison and the difference is like night and day. I still need to get more solid testing in before relaying feedback, but with Saboteur spec, I'm taking dread ring mobs out in less than half the time I did with Scoundrel spec. I really want to like the new Scoundrel but it just feels lacking to me so far.
good work on thoroughly testing scoundrel out, i have given it a few hours of testing and have come to the same conclusions as you have:
-still not enough dps and tank to compensate for loss of stealth and ITC immunity.
-deflect is still inferior compared to HR (TR should have highest deflect)
-mobility is also inferior to all classes (should be fine when our dodge gets fixed)
At wills are really lame:
i thought of a way to fix at will damage and deflect:
Sly Flourish:Increase attack speed 30% (or whatever speed GWF does sure strike in determination mode) and give stacking deflect bonuses per consecutive hit up to 10-15% (could be too much if we get better passive deflect bonuses). This actually makes 'deflect' more sensible as you are attacking you use your weapons to deflect. Can use while moving at reduced damage 20% with enhanced deflect. Moving + Dual wielding daggers = more realistic and dynamic deflect mechanics. Even if one of these features got added id be very happy. I mean, have you watched Sly Flourish animation closely? its not very sly, its more like "HEY EVERY CLASS OTHER THAN TR!!! I AM OVER HERE! COME AND KILL ME IM DOING A SLOW ATTACK"
Duelists Flurry:+20% base damage (DF is really UP in test server), Increase attack speed of first two strikes by 25% and allow attack while moving. Final animation gives full immunity.
This also gets the "CC ME WHILE I WIND UP THIS MEDIOCRE ATTACK!"
Gloaming: Rework the entire thing, this is the most boring at will ever.
Hopefully this could really boost TR damage and defensive opportunities in both PVP and PVE up to the level they should be.
Truthfully speaking, that's going to break the current system and would totally push the TR back to the OP levels it was.
If this is made possible, you don't even need a Saboteuer to 'return back to stealth at whim'. A few dodges and a stream of CoS will instantly put you back to stealth, as well as something like a Daze - DF also puts you right back to stealth, complete with all the high damage encounters to use at your disposal.
IMO the new direction is set. You either use at-wills from stealth and risk the stealth depletion, or you use at-wills outside of stealth.
I think it is pretty clear the messages coming from the devs are;
"No more steady and continuous stream of attacks from stealth, where you can attack at whim but the enemy cannot fight back. If you want to damage someone hard from stealth, then you will use it once you do. If you don't want to risk losing stealth and risk the dangers of being exposed, then your attacks are greatly limited at the price of your safety."
I agree that granting option 1 and 2 at the same time would be pretty OP but separately, it gives the TR an option to re-stealth while under heavy fire.
"Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate."
It takes 10 seconds to refill stealth meter when uninterrupted. As it is now, it's impossible to re-stealth for a non-saboteur without slotting shadowstrike unless they run away from combat which is a hard thing to do for a TR given how mobile they are.
"at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit"
TRs would still lose stealth meter when they are hit which is pretty easy to do for any ranged class and dots can drain/halt stealth gain really quick
A duelist flurry outside of stealth even with daze is pretty hard to pull off and easy to dodge since they would just need to walk away. Although i can see it working with deftstrike-dazing strike combo.
I'm just putting my ideas out there hoping someone would be able to improve it or balance it.
I completely agree with fangredwater. Stealth is distinctive ability of TR class. Without effective stealth,speed and damage there is no meaning of making a TR. For instance ranger class has double blades, stealth ability, faster strikes with blades, wider attack radius, assassinate like marauder strike, marauder's escape that I've seen very effective in Pvp, powers that need less action points, summons that attack behalf of them (I don't know the name of that ability that summon thorn like thing that attack like a radius weapon) and make difficult to go near them with an assassin. Just because of it we started to see more ranger class character acting and dressing like rogue and sadly they seem much more effective.Not just against the ranger class, rogue became inferior to any other classes.All these unfairness against the rogue made rogue needless and decreased the threat level to the ground
Faster At-wills with more utility
Increase all the animation speeds.
Make Duelist Furry give us deflect with increased hits.
Gloaming Cut is slow, and boring, but can hit like a rock. I would actually prefer something less because it already has a great utility of adding back stealth.
Dodges
More dodges (or fix the stamina issue) and shorter dodges
Stat Ratings
Make dexterity mean something for a TR over Strength and Charisma. Right now both of those mean more in test. Make dexterity increase our damage, not strength. Or give us a feat like Weapon Finesse that makes Dex be our damage attribute.
Executioner
I think this is actually lacking now. Right now I think Sabo actually does more sustained damage, AND has greater ability to stay alive because of going back into stealth sooner. Executioner was doing well with first changes, but now that T5 feat only applies to 1 target, I think the lack of getting stealth up and not enough damage, makes executioner less functional.
I have loved the changes to the Executioner Paragon Path, they feel very true and blue to the actually DnD Class...now about this Whisperknife.
First of all looking at the two powers we get
Disheartening Strike- I just plan don't like how this power plays out. I have always played WK as using my ranged attacks until I can get close with my melee at-will. Burst downing my enemy with at-wills then returning to stealth and attacking from a distance. So, what I would like to see from DS is more a -punch- in my initial throw. Maybe some damage scaling with weapons damage? Just something that makes me want to apply it. I like the damage debuff- to the enemy- but honestly that is usless to me, since I am at range and hey, he ain't touching me anyways. Or Maybe the first strike could apply a daze or a small CC? Like a Daze maybe or an Interrupt on initial cast?. I mean come on the attack animation shows you throwing it at THEIR HEAD! Give us something or replace that animation.
Vengeful Pursuit- I am in-LOVE with the quality of live changes really, these are so great the power feels a lot less -clunky- and more fluid. What I would still like is that the first cast STUNS no matter what. It's more in line with the actual DnD Power I assume you took this from. What I would like to see is more %DMG increase, that might even be furthered increased it the enemy attack the player after the initial case. I mean you called it Vengeful for a reason? I feel like there should be some retaliation effect to it.
Also another thing WK are suppose to use posion on their weapon. I would maybe like to see a slotted passive that adds either a DoT posion effect to our At-Wills or a flat posion dmg to our At-Will. This I think would provide a possible. Something like this:
Poison Proficiency: This slotted passive adds stackable posion damage when using your At-Wills and encounters to your enemies Max X Stacks per target. AOE reduce the Stacks by X amount.
I think this would help with the damage the WK Paragon path is needing, but in a fun and interesting way. Adding a bit more to our DoT DPS, and providing something unique to the WK in the process.
Those are my feedback on the power. I am really looking forward to possible spec-ing back into the WK tree. As of right now, as far as playstyle and power. The MI just has it beat. So I like so see something that makes me go "YES" to the confirm page on the Paragon.
I tried a few specs against the enemies in the new well of dragons map and I don't know if they enemies are too easy, or the passives are a lot better than before, but I feel like I'm not doing a very good job with powers and synergies and still I end up fights with most of my health back.
I'll try in IWD instead and see how I do there.
EDIT: I hope they fix the dodge issue, it's working very weird right now, if you have your full stamina it uses 50% but lets you dodge with less than 50% of your stamina as well.
I tried a few specs against the enemies in the new well of dragons map and I don't know if they enemies are too easy, or the passives are a lot better than before, but I feel like I'm not doing a very good job with powers and synergies and still I end up fights with most of my health back.
I'll try in IWD instead and see how I do there.
EDIT: I hope they fix the dodge issue, it's working very weird right now, if you have your full stamina it uses 50% but lets you dodge with less than 50% of your stamina as well.
Welcome to the world of every other class besides perhaps DC(before M5 changes). Still waiting on that dodge change as well.
FEEDBACK: WK Daily, Seething Knives feat
This paragon feat is still not tweaked concerning the 15% stealth depletion changes. The amount of stealth you gain per each attack made while HK effect lingers is 5%. The amount you lose is 15%, so that's actually a 10% stealth loss per attack... which defeats the purpose of this feat.
I suggest the following changes:
Turn of stealth depletion completely while HK effect lingers, so attacking with your powers may correctly refill stealth 5% per attack
Alternately, the Seething Knives effect may simply be changed into something that resembles Lurker's Assault, so attacking would still reduce the stealth by 15%, but not attacking will regenerate stealth naturally at a quick rate
The final, and easiest option IMO, would be that Seething Knives simply refills your stealth 25% base, and then further refills it by a set amount of 15/30/45/60/75% per rank, so a basic HK will refill 25% stealth, Seething Knives HK will instantly refill it, and attacks made after HK will simply deplete stealth as usual
BUG: DAZE EFFECT
In some cases, applying a daze effect to your opponent, will for some reason daze yourself. In my experience, this seems to be related with Skull Cracker.. particularly if you're close to the target that is being dazed.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As some others have indicated I feel that these need to be reconsidered and altered. I realize that they may have value to the saboteur but they offer little to nothing and could seldom even be considered or justified by the scoundrel or executioner (especially the executioner, a WK scoundrel may have some value in them but not a melee scoundrel).
Regarding the stealth extended armor, I feel this really needs to be addressed as it can lead to feedback that can be mostly incorrect and dependent entirely upon these gear choices. Most testers are not considering the play style for the class without this armor and without improved cunning sneak. In such cases stealth is extremely volatile and seldom in effect and cannot be afforded to be wasted on positioning (hence sneak attack has almost no value -- not to mention we get this early and cannot even utilize it until level 10). I really feel that the stealth extended armor effect needs to be removed entirely and replaced with something else.
I think that if a faster movement speed while in stealth is genuinely felt valuable enough to some and appropriate enough to the devs that it should be innate to stealth itself or that the feat can be changed to affect movement speed in general (i.e. even while not in stealth since it has been mentioned that the TR does not feel particularly nimble in general).
Tenacious Concealment could be replaced with something defensive while in stealth, like control resistance, deflection % increase, defense % increase, critical resistance, etc with the reasoning that it is harder to accurately attack something you cannot effectively see, but still not impossible.
Improved Cunning Sneak, I am not quite sure what to replace it with, but the normal stealth duration could be increased naturally by 1 second to make up for whatever this was replaced with. I feel that by extending stealth naturally by 1 second you address the issue of those that build more to remain in stealth (since they will be refreshing stealth by various means (i.e. capstone from scoundrel, shadow strike, bait and switch, invisible infiltrator) and that such will make up for the loss in Improved Cunning Sneak and also the loss in the extension of stealth from the armor. Improved Cunning Sneak could be changed to provide a small movement bonus while in stealth and/or a small chance to dodge/avoid an attack while in stealth (if such can be coded) or something else appropriate or entirely different altogether (such as something that is still felt missing from all paragons/paths of the TR).
I have been playing Scoundrel some on preview and I must say it has been a lot of fun. I call it the "Poor man's CW" as it plays like a funner, weaker, less damaging, less safe, but ultimately more active and much funner CW. I even caught myself thinking "I don't even care if it sucks compared to other classes as it sure is a heck of a lot of fun to play".
FEEDBACK: WK Daily, Seething Knives feat
This paragon feat is still not tweaked concerning the 15% stealth depletion changes. The amount of stealth you gain per each attack made while HK effect lingers is 5%. The amount you lose is 15%, so that's actually a 10% stealth loss per attack... which defeats the purpose of this feat.
I suggest the following changes:
Turn of stealth depletion completely while HK effect lingers, so attacking with your powers may correctly refill stealth 5% per attack
Alternately, the Seething Knives effect may simply be changed into something that resembles Lurker's Assault, so attacking would still reduce the stealth by 15%, but not attacking will regenerate stealth naturally at a quick rate
The final, and easiest option IMO, would be that Seething Knives simply refills your stealth 25% base, and then further refills it by a set amount of 15/30/45/60/75% per rank, so a basic HK will refill 25% stealth, Seething Knives HK will instantly refill it, and attacks made after HK will simply deplete stealth as usual
BUG: DAZE EFFECT
In some cases, applying a daze effect to your opponent, will for some reason daze yourself. In my experience, this seems to be related with Skull Cracker.. particularly if you're close to the target that is being dazed.
I was having the same issue with being dazed while using my smoke bomb. I drop smoke bomb and now I'm dazed for a short time. Please fix that. I think it was related to Skull Cracker as well.
Faster At-wills with more utility
Increase all the animation speeds.
Make Duelist Furry give us deflect with increased hits.
Gloaming Cut is slow, and boring, but can hit like a rock. I would actually prefer something less because it already has a great utility of adding back stealth.
Dodges
More dodges (or fix the stamina issue) and shorter dodges
Stat Ratings
Make dexterity mean something for a TR over Strength and Charisma. Right now both of those mean more in test. Make dexterity increase our damage, not strength. Or give us a feat like Weapon Finesse that makes Dex be our damage attribute.
Executioner
I think this is actually lacking now. Right now I think Sabo actually does more sustained damage, AND has greater ability to stay alive because of going back into stealth sooner. Executioner was doing well with first changes, but now that T5 feat only applies to 1 target, I think the lack of getting stealth up and not enough damage, makes executioner less functional.
I did a test with Advanced Combat Tracker and as Sab i did 3.9m in a 3m period, while as executioner i did 4.9m in a 3min period. so no, executioner is not lacking in sustained dps compared to sab. it is compared to DC however...
I did a test with Advanced Combat Tracker and as Sab i did 3.9m in a 3m period, while as executioner i did 4.9m in a 3min period. so no, executioner is not lacking in sustained dps compared to sab. it is compared to DC however...
yeah DC right now is just ridiculous, sad thing is i have still seen some whinge about the changes. they have godmode ffs!
I did a test with Advanced Combat Tracker and as Sab i did 3.9m in a 3m period, while as executioner i did 4.9m in a 3min period. so no, executioner is not lacking in sustained dps compared to sab. it is compared to DC however...
I just tested single target against a dummy with Sabo vs. Executioner.
Maybe I need to rephrase what I said before. It's not that executioner is severely lacking in damage, it's that it isn't above any beyond that of Sabo. Plus, Sabo gives you more utility (increased Stealth duration = better survival).
I would like congratulate you and the rest of the developers for bringing this changes and improvements. We respectfully bring the following issues to your attention. Thank you in advance for your kind consideration
Bait and Switch: lack of usefulness both in pvp and pve. Smoke Bomb: it also stun the caster, it lacks damage, utility and speed to be desirable to use both in pve and pvp At-Wills: they are lacking in speed and power other class even have debuff. Executioner: this should be the "Big guns" but its under performing compared to Saboteur. Scoundrel: the daze is good but it is still lacking in terms of tools to survive, higher deflect and lifesteal. Dexterity: more deflect from this stat. Intelligence: combat advantage damage from this stat. Vitality: we appreciate if this stat will also give us armor penetration like other class. Impossible to Catch: additional movement speed, immunity to roots and cdr perhaps?
*I noticed that TR is under performing and less likely to survive compared to other class in PVE making them unwanted in dungeon raids could you please help us in this matter.
I'd like to know a couple things. First, how did you do that much more damage than me against a dummy in the same period of time. I actually used the same set-up as you, except I used WR in my Sabo test, because it hits fast and restores stealth (part of that tree). I did use SS for the Exe).
Oh... you used DF. Adding DF messes with your data and comparrison since you only used it on one build.
I was using GC on both. The problem with using DF is that it's nearly impossible now to use it in a dungeon because you no longer are in stealth with it to land, and no ITC immunity.
EDIT:
I just did a test with your skills (using DF with the Executioner build), and did 2,700,000.
I'd like to know what exactly you were doing that allowed you to do 4,900,000 in 3 min against a single target dummy. I am a maxed out TR with Legendary everything (weapon, belt, arts) and have max stats.
so is this the best single target damage in game?^^
My ideas so far
Sly Flourish:Increase attack speed 30% (or whatever speed GWF does sure strike in determination mode) and give stacking deflect bonuses per consecutive hit up to 10-15% (could be too much if we get better passive deflect bonuses). This actually makes 'deflect' more sensible as you are attacking you use your weapons to deflect. Can use while moving at reduced damage 20% with enhanced deflect. Moving + Dual wielding daggers = more realistic and dynamic deflect mechanics. Even if one of these features got added id be very happy.
I mean, have you watched Sly Flourish animation closely? its not very sly.
Duelists Flurry:+20% base damage (DF is really UP in test server), Increase attack speed of first two strikes by 50% and allow attack while moving. Final animation gives full immunity.
Duelists Flurry Alternative: +20% base damage, remove one of the wind up attacks, increased attack speed of wind up, halve the flurry. This way it still does the same damage over time, but is easier to land and you dont waste most of your flurry by having the target walk away while you swing at the air. (wind up attack speed increased to right amount so its the same dps overall)
Gloaming: Rework the entire thing, this is the most boring at will ever. Perhaps make it so it does not target but works more like a charge (running or leaping, not ammo charges) and passes you right through your target and can hit multiple targets. Speed up animation speed, slightly less damage?
CoS: Needs more damage per cumulative dagger. Charges recharge based on recovery stats.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
Encounter: Bait and Switch (trickster rogue) It would be nice if this encounter gave off more threat per trick tick on monsters.
Currently some monsters just avoid it (most monsters)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
So, to sum everything up and summarize a suggestion to the Scoundrel feats;
T1
Roll with the Punches: increase the deflection chance to 1/2/3/4/5% please
Bloody Brawler: Redundant. Let's try replacing it with a feat which further increases your stamina regeneration rate by 10%, and reduces the amount of stamina required to dodge by 4/8/12/16/20%
T2
Survivor: Please change the threshold to less than 40% HP
T3
Savage Blows: Redundant. Replace it with a feat that provides 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina bar regenerated upon a successful deflect
So basically, we put an extra stamina regeneration/dodge stamina cost reduction feat at T1, so other trees may also access it if they wish. If we scale the stamina bar at 100, the old dodges used to cost 50, the new dodges (intended) are now 33, and with this feat a 25% reduction if 5 points invested to it, making it around 25 cost, giving 4 dodges from the get-go.
Then we place a deflect→stamina mechanism at T3, so it remains inaccessible to other builds that chose other paths upto its capstone.
IMO this will increase the TR defense capability as more people might decide to choose the T1 feat, so all TRs who choose this will have at least more dodges, and then the Scoundrel path could make even further use of it through the [deflect=stamina regen=more dodge] mechanism I've proposed.
I like your suggestions for substitutions, but I think that scoundrel, while having excellent CC now, takes far too long to finish its targets. I've been running a hybrid build, with the exe increased crit severity and DR debuff, to compensate slightly. That being said, I like your suggested revision to bloody brawler very much - extra stealth regen and dodge efficiency fits the scoundrel archetype well.
The one thing really missing from the archetype is the dirty hit - not the one that dazes or stuns, but the one that gets past your guard. Instead of your T3 gain stamina upon deflect (as I don't think scoundrel will need to be dodging that much), how about giving an at-will, say, sly flourish, some DR penetration (1/2/3/4/5%, with the possibility of stacking (3x?)) or, to emphasize the CC role, make it a DR debuff vs CCed targets.
This would give pure scoundrels more damage up front, further party contributions, and an incentive to use SF over GC or DF, or even more of a CC role (be careful about making them too reliant upon CC, though).
For survivor, well, I'm not quite sure whether to suggest it be improved or overhauled. It doesn't appeal to me as it's conditional upon %HP and it's an additional deflect boost (just give us 1 good one, like your revised T1 suggestion). If it's going to be improved, I'd say stacking 2/4/6/8/10% when under 50% HP as that last bit can drop quickly for low-HP PvEers, although that might be too much. If it is to be overhauled, I'd suggest making it the sole lifesteal buff with a good % increase (1/2/3/4/5%).
I don't want to overbuff scoundrel as it already has decent survivability and excellent CC. I just find it somewhat lacking in the dps department and think that one or two survival feats could be swapped for debuff or other damage-related feats (not piercing or other pure damage).
Feedback: Rogue Class Rogues have been my favorite class in D&D for as long as I can remember, and I'm glad to see they are finally getting some non-negative attention from the developers. As such, I've had many ideas on how to further improve the Rogue class in ways I feel are needed, beyond just having new epic feats and a few minor power tweaks. So here are a few suggestions that I think could help overall:
Suggestion: *New* Class Mechanic: Reaping Strike
All Rogue damage abilities now have a chance to add a bleed to their target. This bleed can stack up to 10 times.
Reason: There are many. but first and foremost being that we're using blades. Our enemies should be bleeding from our blade attacks. Second, I don't consider this to be a damage buff, but rather as a way to opening more paths for varied builds instead of people feeling they need to spam Duelist's Flurry in order to get the most bang for their buck.
Also, as far as I'm aware, we are the only class aside from DC that doesn't have an innate Class Mechanic now, and DC is getting one in Mod5... so why shouldn't we rogues? This class mechanic also plays into other changes I have in mind.
Suggestion: Stealth EDITED: Reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 10% and Add a 25% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. Using encounters from stealth will still remove you from stealth and will also fully deplete your stealth bar.
Suggestion: *New* Heroic Feat: Weapon Finesse (replacement for Twilight Adept heroic feat)
Dexterity now accounts for 20/40/60/80/100% of your bonus damage instead of strength
Suggestion: First Strike Class Feature
This class feature no longer provides a damage bonus for the first attack of combat (since an equivalent damage bonus would now be baked into the stealth mechanic). Instead, this feature makes your first attack when starting combat gives you combat advantage against your target for 6 seconds and increases your deflection rating and defense against that target by 6% for 6 seconds.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration will be increased by 2 additional seconds. the bonus to deflection and defense are doubled if your initial attack is made from stealth.
Suggestion: Sneak Attack Class Feature
When the rogue initiates combat with this class feature active, they are granted combat advantage to the target and up to 3 additional targets within 15 feet of the target for 6 seconds. the rogues movement speed is also increased by 10% for 6 seconds and the initial target will suffer a 10% penalty to damage resistance.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration is increased by 2 additional seconds. The bonus to movement speed is doubled if your initial attack is made while in stealth.
Suggestion: Duelist's Flurry The current method of this attack being slash>twirl blade>slash>twirl blade>flurry is far too slow, and always has been.
This is how I picture a reworked Duelist's Flurry: "You slash your opponent with two lightning fast consecutive attacks leaving them stunned for a brief second and granting you combat advantage... and just to let your enemy know you have them right where you want them, you give your blade a quick twirl into position as you set the stage to unleash a devastating flurry of attacks on your helpless foe."
So this version would be more like: slash.slash>target is stunned for 1sec while you twirl blade>flurry
note* Due to the above listed Class Mechanic, this power would no longer have a baked in chance to cause bleeding. All bleeds would be applied based on the class mechanic, instead of being tied to only this power.
Suggestion: Sly Flourish
The sly nature of your flourish allows each attack with this power to cause a second unseen attack on your target that deals an additional 25% damage and slightly reduces their defense to further attacks from your flourish. this effect can stack up to 5 times and reduces your targets defense against sly flourish by 2% per stack.
So, there's most of them. I cut a few out in order to keep things reasonable, and I felt these were some of the most beneficial. Cheers!
EDIT: Just to keep things in one place for easier reference, I'll be updating this post to reflect any new feedback. I'm also linking it in my Sig.
Suggestion: *New* Scoundrel Epic Feat: Dirty Fighting (replacement for Mocking Gesture)
Your attacks on Dazed or otherwise controlled targets now have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to Critically Strike. Taking this feat will cause the 100% critical chance from stealth to no longer affect you.
Reason: Saboteur spec can achieve 100% crit rate inside stealth, and can maintain stealth very easily to achieve the bonus crit capability. This change would help bring Scoundrel spec up to par using the tools that are available to it while still offering a different play style that is not reliant on stealth.
Feedback: Rogue Class Rogues have been my favorite class in D&D for as long as I can remember, and I'm glad to see they are finally getting some non-negative attention from the developers. As such, I've had many ideas on how to further improve the Rogue class in ways I feel are needed, beyond just having new epic feats and a few minor power tweaks. So here are a few suggestions that I think could help overall:
Suggestion: *New* Class Mechanic: Reaping Strike
All Rogue damage abilities now have a chance to add a bleed to their target. This bleed can stack up to 10 times.
Reason: There are many. but first and foremost being that we're using blades. Our enemies should be bleeding from our blade attacks. Second, I don't consider this to be a damage buff, but rather as a way to opening more paths for varied builds instead of people feeling they need to spam Duelist's Flurry in order to get the most bang for their buck.
Also, as far as I'm aware, we are the only class aside from DC that doesn't have an innate Class Mechanic now, and DC is getting one in Mod5... so why shouldn't we rogues? This class mechanic also plays into other changes I have in mind.
Suggestion: Stealth
Do away with stealth drain over time, but make stealth auto-disable if active for 30 seconds without initiating combat. reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 7.5% and Add a 35% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. also, reduce the critical chance from 100% in stealth to 50% and allow that bonus to stack with a characters critical strike rating. Using encounters from stealth will still remove you from stealth and will also fully deplete your stealth bar.
Suggestion: *New* Heroic Feat: Weapon Finesse (replacement for Twilight Adept heroic feat)
Dexterity now accounts for 20/40/60/80/100% of your bonus damage instead of strength
Suggestion: First Strike Class Feature
This class feature no longer provides a damage bonus for the first attack of combat (since an equivalent damage bonus would now be baked into the stealth mechanic). Instead, this feature makes your first attack when starting combat gives you combat advantage against your target for 6 seconds and increases your deflection rating and defense against that target by 6% for 6 seconds.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration will be increased by 2 additional seconds. the bonus to deflection and defense are doubled if your initial attack is made from stealth.
Suggestion: Sneak Attack Class Feature
When the rogue initiates combat with this class feature active, they are granted combat advantage to the target and up to 3 additional targets within 15 feet of the target for 6 seconds. the rogues movement speed is also increased by 10% for 6 seconds and the initial target will suffer a 10% penalty to damage resistance.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration is increased by 2 additional seconds. The bonus to movement speed is doubled if your initial attack is made while in stealth.
Suggestion: Duelist's Flurry The current method of this attack being slash>twirl blade>slash>twirl blade>flurry is far too slow, and always has been.
This is how I picture a reworked Duelist's Flurry: "You slash your opponent with two lightning fast consecutive attacks leaving them stunned for a brief second and granting you combat advantage... and just to let your enemy know you have them right where you want them, you give your blade a quick twirl into position as you set the stage to unleash a devastating flurry of attacks on your helpless foe."
So this version would be more like: slash.slash>target is stunned for 1sec while you twirl blade>flurry
note* Due to the above listed Class Mechanic, this power would no longer have a baked in chance to cause bleeding. All bleeds would be applied based on the class mechanic, instead of being tied to only this power.
Suggestion: Sly Flourish
The sly nature of your flourish allows each attack with this power to cause a second unseen attack on your target that deals an additional 25% damage and slightly reduces their defense to further attacks from your flourish. this effect can stack up to 5 times and reduces your targets defense against sly flourish by 2% per stack.
So, there's most of them. I cut a few out in order to keep things reasonable, and I felt these were some of the most beneficial. Cheers!
FEEDBACK: Consider to give us 30% more base stealth in order to allow us to change our only usefull set of gear: the profound set.
Is not like we can use infinite at will anymore so it should not be a crazy idea.
We are forced to use an outdated set to be viable and this is just an indirect way to nerf us.
Consider to not let shadow strike proc one with the shadows please, is a no sense.
GLOAMING CUT: It feel really slow and from a dps standpoint it's really lacking compared to every other at will. Consider to haste up a bit the animation
Comments
Nice buff, but this power needs to protect us from all sources of damage for 20%, not just ranged attacks. Make it also increase our deflection/mitigation by a small amount.
Thank you for the WK buffs so far, we're getting into something.
Dazing strike - A very welcome change, especially the fast activation. It also opens up a solid array of options for a non-stealthed TR in PVP. DS is now a solid encounter and useful. If DS were a stun then I would be concerned about it's power in PVP but I think that as a daze it remains adequate without being too powerful.
Path of the blade - This power retains it's function and effectivness in PVE while being substantially reduced in it's annoyance factor and power in PVP. Exactly the kind of changes that need to happen.
Lashing blade - I am finding less and less reasons to slot this encounter on my bar. I am unsure how this power could be balanced to be useful in PVE without breaking it in PVP. In any case it doesn't need to deal more damage. Perhaps reducing the cooldown or adding a utility function to the power would be appropriate.
Impact shot - Still very weak and mostly useless. Perhaps adding a AOE burst effect would put it on the map for PVE without making it too powerful for PVP.
Bait and switch - This power is outdated, dead, and obsolete. I am finding no room for it in any situation on any feat path. Frankly if the stealth replenish portion of the power were removed that would be fine by me. It really needs to have a vast improvement in utility functions to be worth slotting, such as - Vastly reduced cooldown, immunity frames while casting, defensive stats boosted for rogue while it is active, and increased HP pool and threat generation of the dummy in PVE.
First strike - With this hopefully one-shotting equally geared squishies will go away. However, I think that rogues will still be able to one-shot lesser geared players, which is not a problem with the TR class alone. Nevertheless, I would expect for there to be some significant outcry when the updated TR goes live, and this is the first ability you should look at with future changes. More to the point I'd like to see it changed to something a bit more situationally useful than "alpha-strike" in PVP, but if you want to leave it here that's fine by me.
Sabotuer - Is starting to live up to the description painted on Page one of this thread. I by no means feel over-powered in PVE when using this path, but I am starting to feel like I could actually contribute solidly to a dungeon now. You might want to look at how Shadowy opportunity interacts with Bloodbath. I have done as much as 20k+ shadowy opportunity damage to a single target via bloodbath, and if that is indeed straight up unmitigated damage as it seems to be then there are concerns with that in PVP.
Scoundrel - Rather pleased with how this path turned out with the latest update. Is starting to live up to the description painted in Page one of this thread. The CC of this path is now adequate and it's main selling point. The toughness however, is not substantially noticeable. The damage as well also seems to be a bit lacking, which could be solved by doing something about the at-will situation. The thing I like most about this path is that while viable, it plays completely differently from saboteur, and I used different power set-ups between the two paths.
Executioner - I have not tested the updated changes to Exe, however, I will say this. The original shadow of demise was the only thing that allowed me to keep pace in the same circumstances as a Sabotuer. While the bug fix was entirely in order, changing Shadow of demise to single target only effectively gutted this feat path.
Final thoughts - TR is approaching adequate levels of performance PVE-wise as far as encounters and dailies go. However, it is lacking in Single target damage, which really should be it's niche role and something it has always been strong in. Single target encounters and dailies are.......underwhelming in PVE. In the past a large portion of rogue damage came from flurry, which is both rewarding and dynamic. While the simple solution would be to reduce stealth drain to 5% or less, perhaps the better option would be to make TR at-wills more useable out of stealth. Stealth adds survivability, increases the rogue's ability to connect with melee powers, and adds no small amount of damage. In order to bring at-wills to the same level as they were before stealth drain, they need to add all of the above while out of stealth - survivability, ability to connect, increased damage. This is currently the most pressing issue for the TR class in preview. Right now every at-will besides gloaming cut not only feels useless and sub-par, but it also feels like we are punished for using them.
I tried now the upper Feat Trea: Saboteur and was quite impressed.
In 1 minute test cycles i dealt up to ~1.200.000 Damage. To compare: i deal on the live Server ~890.000
It's a good damage increase and i only use GLOAMING CUT in this build. You can use Duelist Flurry in additon but it seems that it leads to an small DPS dropp while i use it unstealthed on the training puppet.
In an real battle duelist flurry is still usefull if you need a bit controll immunity and DOT on a Monster while stealth is regenerating.
Saboteur looks for me like the new PvE-Build. The reason is not only the higher damage, it's the handling of encounter powers. If you use an encounter you regenerate stealth which is important for your damage in this build and nothing is better as wicked reminder. Because you get every 15 Seconds the Buff "one with the shadows" which is activated by an encounter power.
That means, i am running out of stealth while i get this buff, hit with wicked reminder with the effect of fully debuff the monster (3 stacks = -21% armor = more damage for me and my group) get full stealth again AND a buff for 10 seconds to deal +20% more damage.
The really good thing is i have enough points left to get the Executioneer Feat "Arterial Cut" which gives me +15% more crit severity while stealthed.
The other side is: How is this build in PvP? An Bad thing could be, you are most of the time in stealth because you can use gloaming cut and it deals not a small amount of damage (12-30K). But on the other side, Gloaming Cut is a slow skill that draggs you automatically near the enemy player which means: You can see him and dodge away. But! it should be tested first. Sadly i got no Queue-Pop on the Test-Server for PvP.
Another thing is: I still want more Damage. I have an damage increase with this build, but it's still lower then the other classes. The 1.2 Million damage are around 16.000 DPS (so say the parser ACT) and i am an 18K GS TR with optimized stats and an similar equipped GWF can do around 23-25.000 DPS. A good enhancment could be: Give Gloaming Cut a small AoE template. Nothing really big only the range of this scissor like movement or give some feats or items with additional combat advantage bonus or we could get more Action Points Gaining to get faster in Lurker Assault or enhance Lurker Assault a bit more.
I really like this build because it feels like a real TR, most of the time i am invisible and dealing a good amount of damage.
Another personal preference in general for the TR from me would be: If am stealth i would get +10% movement speed because it is sometimes hard to avoid AoE Attacks from monsters without sacrificing the precious stealth.
To the dodging changes: I know they are not live, but i would more prefer that the dodge length is be untouched because it would dragg me too far away from my target. And 30% instead of 50% Stamina seems a bit too less. How about 40% and give me the 10% movement speed while stealthed?
Do something with the at wills and make stealth deplete slower with at will use. Oh and DCs desperately need their dps curbed ffs, why can a DC tank,heal,cc and DPS all in one build.
With the stealth meter drain per at-will attack, I feel that more changes are needed to be made for refilling stealth. Executioners pretty much have to slot shadowstrike as a refilling option. I'd be happy to have any of the changes below:
1.) Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate.
2.) at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit
3.) Third strike (flurry) of Duelist's Flurry counts as 1 attack so that it won't drain the whole meter
i like all these things
1.GENERAL COMMENTS ON THE 3 BUILD PATHS
I believe the TR changes are now starting to enter a solid zone.
In case of Saboteuer, while many people were simply awed by the damage of Executioner in version1, some of the TRs who have been testing thoroughly have commented that it is their belief the Saboteuer's the most solid one of them all. With the reduced cooldown of OWTS I'd say this path is almost complete.
In case of the Scoundrel, it received the largest benefits of version2. The turn-out of this path is simply amazing... and equally amazing is the fact that the path comfortably fits both MIs and WKs well. The potential of this path applies differently to MIs and WKs in accordance with the innate differences between the two paragon paths, and thus MI Scoundrels are now quite amazing melees, while WK Scoundrels are the masters of harassment and fast paced in-and-out tactics. Every feat is now quite satisfying -- and even Concussive Strikes... or rather, especially Concussive Strikes.
Concussive Strikes now finally gives the TRs a much needed "silencer" power against ranged attacks or casting, allowing TRs to gain the initiative against ranged attackers. It was incredibly pleasant to find out that I, a WK with no CC breakers, could now escape the dreaded Icy Rays by; Stealth → Crit CoS → inflict daze. In moments of emergency, a desperate CoS stream of attacks pays off as a crit hit will momentarily daze your oppoenent, buying you precious 2.5 seconds to prepare yourself for the counter attack.
In a stealth fight against another TR, as you move around and search wildly for each other, a clandestine fling of a single CoS as your opponent passes by will now daze and momentarily pull him out of stealth, at which point you can fire off a VP mark to track him further and land a big hit, or simply decide to end his stealth with your own by flinging all CoS streams -- you and your opponent, both out of stealth, certain distance between the two -- good situation for a ranged TR.
While the Concussive Strikes daze may seem useless to some, the reality is much different: Concussive Strikes is now a must for any Scoundrel. The tactical worth of this feat, IMO, actually matches that of the capstone Skull Cracker.
I can't say much about the Executioner, as the style of this path does not agree with me well. My impression is the fighting style, rythm of the Executioner most closely matches the "old" TR tactics and moves. It has neither the deceptive and stylish rythm of the Saboteuer, nor does it have the technical and fluent CC tactics of the Scoundrel. The Executioner seems to play almost identically to the old TRs (especially old MI TRs familiar with the use of GC), but has the one-big-hit going for the path. Usually the fights I see a Saboteuer (Scoundrel builds are still rare in the preview) will have the upperhand all throughout the fight, but if it gets caught by that 1-big-hit, then the Executioner wins. Otherwise the Sabotuer does. I'll basically leave the judgement on Executioner paths/builds to other people more used to the path.
One thing is for certain. Now, all three paths are totally different in how they manage a fight. All three are unique, and all three have distinct strengths and weaknesses. When combined with the two different Paragons, effectively it can be said that we are given 6 different sub-type choices of the TR, 3 distinctly different MI types, and 3 distinctly different WK types. Every path plays it out differently, and it has been so much fun testing the different paths with other people.
2. THE NEW SCOUNDREL PATH
Now, since most of this version2 update concerns Scoundrels, I've already commented how much I enjoyed it, and how the CC aspect is now well represented in the TR.
However, there is still something left to be desired, and that is the other feats -- related to adding "strong defense" as a Scoundrel, seems actually redundant now. Particularly the Life Steal related feats.
I imagine the general intent behind the life steal related feats was to make the Scoundrel path sort of like the Combat path HR and Wilds Medicine, but it really doesn't seem to be working out that way.
As many of the players have mentioned, TRs are still much too weak in terms of defense. In this aspect, the best comparison would be with HRs -- same leather-grade armour, and yet while TRs are generally considered squishy, the HRs are considered extremely tough.
Why is this so? I believe the reasons are:
(1) HRs have a variety of buffs for self-protection. TRs do not.
(2) HRs have a deflection rate that averages higher than even TRs.
(3) HRs have self-sustenance(healing) that synergizes with deflect. TRs do not.
(4) HRs have much more active number of dodges.
I've been giving it thought as to how the general defense level of the TR can be upgraded, but not the levels of the HR (which is often considered OP by many, especially in its ability to endlessly heal itself constantly). "Borrowing" the deflect=heal method would be obviously the simplest, as it essentially benchmarks the HRs in its primary defense mechanism. However, I don't think that's the path TRs should go.
Instead, I was thinking about a feat which might sort of work out like the HR defense mechanism Wild Medicine, but instead return stamina for TRs instead of HP.
The reasoning behind this, is tying up successful deflection action with stamina gain will result in the TR defense mechanisms synergizing with each other. Gaining HP would just make it OP since for example power like ITC would be much too powerful with heals, but if the TRs gained stamina for successful deflects, then there would be more dodges to be used -- increasing both the defense of the TR as well as mobility.
It does not directly add HP, so a damaged TR is still damaged. There won't be any bullshi* like the HR where you damage him and he actually deflects and heals more from it (like DoTs) -- but instead the more the successful deflects the more you will be able to dodge and move around faster.
Therefore, adding this function to the Scoundrel path, instead of the redundant Life Steal related feats, would benefit the TRs much more in PvP and PvE.
So, to sum everything up and summarize a suggestion to the Scoundrel feats;
T1
Roll with the Punches: increase the deflection chance to 1/2/3/4/5% please
Bloody Brawler: Redundant. Let's try replacing it with a feat which further increases your stamina regeneration rate by 10%, and reduces the amount of stamina required to dodge by 4/8/12/16/20%
T2
Survivor: Please change the threshold to less than 40% HP
T3
Savage Blows: Redundant. Replace it with a feat that provides 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina bar regenerated upon a successful deflect
So basically, we put an extra stamina regeneration/dodge stamina cost reduction feat at T1, so other trees may also access it if they wish. If we scale the stamina bar at 100, the old dodges used to cost 50, the new dodges (intended) are now 33, and with this feat a 25% reduction if 5 points invested to it, making it around 25 cost, giving 4 dodges from the get-go.
Then we place a deflect→stamina mechanism at T3, so it remains inaccessible to other builds that chose other paths upto its capstone.
IMO this will increase the TR defense capability as more people might decide to choose the T1 feat, so all TRs who choose this will have at least more dodges, and then the Scoundrel path could make even further use of it through the [deflect=stamina regen=more dodge] mechanism I've proposed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Truthfully speaking, that's going to break the current system and would totally push the TR back to the OP levels it was.
If this is made possible, you don't even need a Saboteuer to 'return back to stealth at whim'. A few dodges and a stream of CoS will instantly put you back to stealth, as well as something like a Daze - DF also puts you right back to stealth, complete with all the high damage encounters to use at your disposal.
IMO the new direction is set. You either use at-wills from stealth and risk the stealth depletion, or you use at-wills outside of stealth.
I think it is pretty clear the messages coming from the devs are;
"No more steady and continuous stream of attacks from stealth, where you can attack at whim but the enemy cannot fight back. If you want to damage someone hard from stealth, then you will use it once you do. If you don't want to risk losing stealth and risk the dangers of being exposed, then your attacks are greatly limited at the price of your safety."
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The pop text description for this powers buff icon incorrectly cites the effect for the Saboteur capstone feat, stating that once every 15 seconds, using an encounter power will refill your stealth meter
Bug: First Strike
Once slotted, this class feature incorrectly retains its damage bonus on the character after it has been un-slotted in favor of a different class feature. The damage bonus persists until after the first attack is made in an encounter or the player changes zones
Feedback: Scoundrel
Please keep in mind that this feedback pertains specifically to my build, which is identical on live and PTS aside from the feat allocations for the reworked Scoundrel feats. I made no changes to powers, stats, etc between the two. My first impression was that there is virtually no change in basic combat efficacy between my live build in Scoundrel spec and the new Scoundrel spec on PTS. listed below are the main differences I've found through hours of testing and parsing combat logs in ACT:
on PTS I deal less DPS and overall damage in a given amount of time using Scoundrel spec, compared to live
on PTS the DPA of all my attacks have been reduced by 300 to over 1,000 damage, depending on the power, using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I am ever so slightly more resilient than on live using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I have noticeably more control effects happening compared to live
on PTS my AP generation is severely hampered compared to live
on PTS stealth is utterly and completely useless for Scoundrel spec, it's not even worth the minor effort to use it
on PTS heroic feats like Action Advantage, Twilight Adept and Improved Cunning Sneak now feel like they are totally worthless for Scoundrels
On PTS even with the damage increases to Deft Strike and Blitz, those powers still yield reduced damage for Scoundrel spec compared to live (as do other powers)
Overall, I don't feel like the new Scoundrel spec is an improvement, just a different way of doing the same thing in a slightly less efficient way. I was hoping to find at least a moderate improvement to damage. I expect the scoundrel to use underhanded tactics to daze or otherwise hinder their opponents, sure, but usually that comes with a big payoff by exploiting those tactics to cause some real damage. We got one feat for increased damage on controlled opponents... one... and while it's a good feat, it only brings the spec almost up to par with what's currently available on live, damage-wise. The loss of AP generation is, IMO, also a huge hit to the spec. While I love the new style and extra control effects, I'm left wondering if it's enough to make the loss in damage and AP generation "worth it".
For reference, all testing of the Scoundrel spec on PTS was done on a Master Infiltrator with 15k GS and 21 STR, 21 DEX, 21 CHA using Duelist's Flurry and Gloaming Cut at-wills, Tactics and Skillful Infiltrator class features, Dazing Strike, Deft Strike and Blitz encounters. Mainly invested in Power (5.5k) and Crit (3k) with moderate investment (1,300-1,700) in ArPen, Recovery, Deflection, Life Steal and Defense.
This is the same setup I've used on Live for several months now and it's worked well for me. However I'm finding it may be hard to justify staying with Scoundrel in Mod5 if it remains in its current state. I began testing Saboteur last night for comparison and the difference is like night and day. I still need to get more solid testing in before relaying feedback, but with Saboteur spec, I'm taking dread ring mobs out in less than half the time I did with Scoundrel spec. I really want to like the new Scoundrel but it just feels lacking to me so far.
CC build TR work, but its like under-CW. Want CC - build CW. Btw, no CC DC (chains just broken now - no root).
Diana (15,4 DC)
BigHalf (15,5 GF)
good work on thoroughly testing scoundrel out, i have given it a few hours of testing and have come to the same conclusions as you have:
-still not enough dps and tank to compensate for loss of stealth and ITC immunity.
-deflect is still inferior compared to HR (TR should have highest deflect)
-mobility is also inferior to all classes (should be fine when our dodge gets fixed)
At wills are really lame:
i thought of a way to fix at will damage and deflect:
Sly Flourish:Increase attack speed 30% (or whatever speed GWF does sure strike in determination mode) and give stacking deflect bonuses per consecutive hit up to 10-15% (could be too much if we get better passive deflect bonuses). This actually makes 'deflect' more sensible as you are attacking you use your weapons to deflect. Can use while moving at reduced damage 20% with enhanced deflect. Moving + Dual wielding daggers = more realistic and dynamic deflect mechanics. Even if one of these features got added id be very happy.
I mean, have you watched Sly Flourish animation closely? its not very sly, its more like "HEY EVERY CLASS OTHER THAN TR!!! I AM OVER HERE! COME AND KILL ME IM DOING A SLOW ATTACK"
Duelists Flurry:+20% base damage (DF is really UP in test server), Increase attack speed of first two strikes by 25% and allow attack while moving. Final animation gives full immunity.
This also gets the "CC ME WHILE I WIND UP THIS MEDIOCRE ATTACK!"
Gloaming: Rework the entire thing, this is the most boring at will ever.
Hopefully this could really boost TR damage and defensive opportunities in both PVP and PVE up to the level they should be.
I agree that granting option 1 and 2 at the same time would be pretty OP but separately, it gives the TR an option to re-stealth while under heavy fire.
"Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate."
It takes 10 seconds to refill stealth meter when uninterrupted. As it is now, it's impossible to re-stealth for a non-saboteur without slotting shadowstrike unless they run away from combat which is a hard thing to do for a TR given how mobile they are.
"at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit"
TRs would still lose stealth meter when they are hit which is pretty easy to do for any ranged class and dots can drain/halt stealth gain really quick
A duelist flurry outside of stealth even with daze is pretty hard to pull off and easy to dodge since they would just need to walk away. Although i can see it working with deftstrike-dazing strike combo.
I'm just putting my ideas out there hoping someone would be able to improve it or balance it.
I truly think we are almost there.
Faster At-wills with more utility
Increase all the animation speeds.
Make Duelist Furry give us deflect with increased hits.
Gloaming Cut is slow, and boring, but can hit like a rock. I would actually prefer something less because it already has a great utility of adding back stealth.
Dodges
More dodges (or fix the stamina issue) and shorter dodges
Stat Ratings
Make dexterity mean something for a TR over Strength and Charisma. Right now both of those mean more in test. Make dexterity increase our damage, not strength. Or give us a feat like Weapon Finesse that makes Dex be our damage attribute.
Executioner
I think this is actually lacking now. Right now I think Sabo actually does more sustained damage, AND has greater ability to stay alive because of going back into stealth sooner. Executioner was doing well with first changes, but now that T5 feat only applies to 1 target, I think the lack of getting stealth up and not enough damage, makes executioner less functional.
First of all looking at the two powers we get
Disheartening Strike- I just plan don't like how this power plays out. I have always played WK as using my ranged attacks until I can get close with my melee at-will. Burst downing my enemy with at-wills then returning to stealth and attacking from a distance. So, what I would like to see from DS is more a -punch- in my initial throw. Maybe some damage scaling with weapons damage? Just something that makes me want to apply it. I like the damage debuff- to the enemy- but honestly that is usless to me, since I am at range and hey, he ain't touching me anyways. Or Maybe the first strike could apply a daze or a small CC? Like a Daze maybe or an Interrupt on initial cast?. I mean come on the attack animation shows you throwing it at THEIR HEAD! Give us something or replace that animation.
Vengeful Pursuit- I am in-LOVE with the quality of live changes really, these are so great the power feels a lot less -clunky- and more fluid. What I would still like is that the first cast STUNS no matter what. It's more in line with the actual DnD Power I assume you took this from. What I would like to see is more %DMG increase, that might even be furthered increased it the enemy attack the player after the initial case. I mean you called it Vengeful for a reason? I feel like there should be some retaliation effect to it.
http://dndtools.eu/classes/whisperknife/
Also another thing WK are suppose to use posion on their weapon. I would maybe like to see a slotted passive that adds either a DoT posion effect to our At-Wills or a flat posion dmg to our At-Will. This I think would provide a possible. Something like this:
Poison Proficiency: This slotted passive adds stackable posion damage when using your At-Wills and encounters to your enemies Max X Stacks per target. AOE reduce the Stacks by X amount.
I think this would help with the damage the WK Paragon path is needing, but in a fun and interesting way. Adding a bit more to our DoT DPS, and providing something unique to the WK in the process.
Those are my feedback on the power. I am really looking forward to possible spec-ing back into the WK tree. As of right now, as far as playstyle and power. The MI just has it beat. So I like so see something that makes me go "YES" to the confirm page on the Paragon.
I'll try in IWD instead and see how I do there.
EDIT: I hope they fix the dodge issue, it's working very weird right now, if you have your full stamina it uses 50% but lets you dodge with less than 50% of your stamina as well.
Welcome to the world of every other class besides perhaps DC(before M5 changes). Still waiting on that dodge change as well.
FEEDBACK: WK Daily, Seething Knives feat
This paragon feat is still not tweaked concerning the 15% stealth depletion changes. The amount of stealth you gain per each attack made while HK effect lingers is 5%. The amount you lose is 15%, so that's actually a 10% stealth loss per attack... which defeats the purpose of this feat.
I suggest the following changes:
Turn of stealth depletion completely while HK effect lingers, so attacking with your powers may correctly refill stealth 5% per attack
Alternately, the Seething Knives effect may simply be changed into something that resembles Lurker's Assault, so attacking would still reduce the stealth by 15%, but not attacking will regenerate stealth naturally at a quick rate
The final, and easiest option IMO, would be that Seething Knives simply refills your stealth 25% base, and then further refills it by a set amount of 15/30/45/60/75% per rank, so a basic HK will refill 25% stealth, Seething Knives HK will instantly refill it, and attacks made after HK will simply deplete stealth as usual
BUG: DAZE EFFECT
In some cases, applying a daze effect to your opponent, will for some reason daze yourself. In my experience, this seems to be related with Skull Cracker.. particularly if you're close to the target that is being dazed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As some others have indicated I feel that these need to be reconsidered and altered. I realize that they may have value to the saboteur but they offer little to nothing and could seldom even be considered or justified by the scoundrel or executioner (especially the executioner, a WK scoundrel may have some value in them but not a melee scoundrel).
Regarding the stealth extended armor, I feel this really needs to be addressed as it can lead to feedback that can be mostly incorrect and dependent entirely upon these gear choices. Most testers are not considering the play style for the class without this armor and without improved cunning sneak. In such cases stealth is extremely volatile and seldom in effect and cannot be afforded to be wasted on positioning (hence sneak attack has almost no value -- not to mention we get this early and cannot even utilize it until level 10). I really feel that the stealth extended armor effect needs to be removed entirely and replaced with something else.
I think that if a faster movement speed while in stealth is genuinely felt valuable enough to some and appropriate enough to the devs that it should be innate to stealth itself or that the feat can be changed to affect movement speed in general (i.e. even while not in stealth since it has been mentioned that the TR does not feel particularly nimble in general).
Tenacious Concealment could be replaced with something defensive while in stealth, like control resistance, deflection % increase, defense % increase, critical resistance, etc with the reasoning that it is harder to accurately attack something you cannot effectively see, but still not impossible.
Improved Cunning Sneak, I am not quite sure what to replace it with, but the normal stealth duration could be increased naturally by 1 second to make up for whatever this was replaced with. I feel that by extending stealth naturally by 1 second you address the issue of those that build more to remain in stealth (since they will be refreshing stealth by various means (i.e. capstone from scoundrel, shadow strike, bait and switch, invisible infiltrator) and that such will make up for the loss in Improved Cunning Sneak and also the loss in the extension of stealth from the armor. Improved Cunning Sneak could be changed to provide a small movement bonus while in stealth and/or a small chance to dodge/avoid an attack while in stealth (if such can be coded) or something else appropriate or entirely different altogether (such as something that is still felt missing from all paragons/paths of the TR).
I have been playing Scoundrel some on preview and I must say it has been a lot of fun. I call it the "Poor man's CW" as it plays like a funner, weaker, less damaging, less safe, but ultimately more active and much funner CW. I even caught myself thinking "I don't even care if it sucks compared to other classes as it sure is a heck of a lot of fun to play".
I was having the same issue with being dazed while using my smoke bomb. I drop smoke bomb and now I'm dazed for a short time. Please fix that. I think it was related to Skull Cracker as well.
I did a test with Advanced Combat Tracker and as Sab i did 3.9m in a 3m period, while as executioner i did 4.9m in a 3min period. so no, executioner is not lacking in sustained dps compared to sab. it is compared to DC however...
yeah DC right now is just ridiculous, sad thing is i have still seen some whinge about the changes. they have godmode ffs!
I just tested single target against a dummy with Sabo vs. Executioner.
3 minutes Sabo: 2,243,000
3 minutes Exec: 2,193,000
Maybe I need to rephrase what I said before. It's not that executioner is severely lacking in damage, it's that it isn't above any beyond that of Sabo. Plus, Sabo gives you more utility (increased Stealth duration = better survival).
I would like congratulate you and the rest of the developers for bringing this changes and improvements. We respectfully bring the following issues to your attention. Thank you in advance for your kind consideration
Bait and Switch: lack of usefulness both in pvp and pve.
Smoke Bomb: it also stun the caster, it lacks damage, utility and speed to be desirable to use both in pve and pvp
At-Wills: they are lacking in speed and power other class even have debuff.
Executioner: this should be the "Big guns" but its under performing compared to Saboteur.
Scoundrel: the daze is good but it is still lacking in terms of tools to survive, higher deflect and lifesteal.
Dexterity: more deflect from this stat.
Intelligence: combat advantage damage from this stat.
Vitality: we appreciate if this stat will also give us armor penetration like other class.
Impossible to Catch: additional movement speed, immunity to roots and cdr perhaps?
*I noticed that TR is under performing and less likely to survive compared to other class in PVE making them unwanted in dungeon raids could you please help us in this matter.
so is this the best single target damage in game?^^
My ideas so far
Sly Flourish:Increase attack speed 30% (or whatever speed GWF does sure strike in determination mode) and give stacking deflect bonuses per consecutive hit up to 10-15% (could be too much if we get better passive deflect bonuses). This actually makes 'deflect' more sensible as you are attacking you use your weapons to deflect. Can use while moving at reduced damage 20% with enhanced deflect. Moving + Dual wielding daggers = more realistic and dynamic deflect mechanics. Even if one of these features got added id be very happy.
I mean, have you watched Sly Flourish animation closely? its not very sly.
Duelists Flurry:+20% base damage (DF is really UP in test server), Increase attack speed of first two strikes by 50% and allow attack while moving. Final animation gives full immunity.
Duelists Flurry Alternative: +20% base damage, remove one of the wind up attacks, increased attack speed of wind up, halve the flurry. This way it still does the same damage over time, but is easier to land and you dont waste most of your flurry by having the target walk away while you swing at the air. (wind up attack speed increased to right amount so its the same dps overall)
Gloaming: Rework the entire thing, this is the most boring at will ever. Perhaps make it so it does not target but works more like a charge (running or leaping, not ammo charges) and passes you right through your target and can hit multiple targets. Speed up animation speed, slightly less damage?
CoS: Needs more damage per cumulative dagger. Charges recharge based on recovery stats.
It would be nice if this encounter gave off more threat per trick tick on monsters.
Currently some monsters just avoid it (most monsters)
I like your suggestions for substitutions, but I think that scoundrel, while having excellent CC now, takes far too long to finish its targets. I've been running a hybrid build, with the exe increased crit severity and DR debuff, to compensate slightly. That being said, I like your suggested revision to bloody brawler very much - extra stealth regen and dodge efficiency fits the scoundrel archetype well.
The one thing really missing from the archetype is the dirty hit - not the one that dazes or stuns, but the one that gets past your guard. Instead of your T3 gain stamina upon deflect (as I don't think scoundrel will need to be dodging that much), how about giving an at-will, say, sly flourish, some DR penetration (1/2/3/4/5%, with the possibility of stacking (3x?)) or, to emphasize the CC role, make it a DR debuff vs CCed targets.
This would give pure scoundrels more damage up front, further party contributions, and an incentive to use SF over GC or DF, or even more of a CC role (be careful about making them too reliant upon CC, though).
For survivor, well, I'm not quite sure whether to suggest it be improved or overhauled. It doesn't appeal to me as it's conditional upon %HP and it's an additional deflect boost (just give us 1 good one, like your revised T1 suggestion). If it's going to be improved, I'd say stacking 2/4/6/8/10% when under 50% HP as that last bit can drop quickly for low-HP PvEers, although that might be too much. If it is to be overhauled, I'd suggest making it the sole lifesteal buff with a good % increase (1/2/3/4/5%).
I don't want to overbuff scoundrel as it already has decent survivability and excellent CC. I just find it somewhat lacking in the dps department and think that one or two survival feats could be swapped for debuff or other damage-related feats (not piercing or other pure damage).
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Rogues have been my favorite class in D&D for as long as I can remember, and I'm glad to see they are finally getting some non-negative attention from the developers. As such, I've had many ideas on how to further improve the Rogue class in ways I feel are needed, beyond just having new epic feats and a few minor power tweaks. So here are a few suggestions that I think could help overall:
Suggestion: *New* Class Mechanic: Reaping Strike
All Rogue damage abilities now have a chance to add a bleed to their target. This bleed can stack up to 10 times.
Reason: There are many. but first and foremost being that we're using blades. Our enemies should be bleeding from our blade attacks. Second, I don't consider this to be a damage buff, but rather as a way to opening more paths for varied builds instead of people feeling they need to spam Duelist's Flurry in order to get the most bang for their buck.
Also, as far as I'm aware, we are the only class aside from DC that doesn't have an innate Class Mechanic now, and DC is getting one in Mod5... so why shouldn't we rogues? This class mechanic also plays into other changes I have in mind.
Suggestion: Stealth
EDITED: Reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 10% and Add a 25% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. Using encounters from stealth will still remove you from stealth and will also fully deplete your stealth bar.
Suggestion: *New* Heroic Feat: Weapon Finesse (replacement for Twilight Adept heroic feat)
Dexterity now accounts for 20/40/60/80/100% of your bonus damage instead of strength
Suggestion: First Strike Class Feature
This class feature no longer provides a damage bonus for the first attack of combat (since an equivalent damage bonus would now be baked into the stealth mechanic). Instead, this feature makes your first attack when starting combat gives you combat advantage against your target for 6 seconds and increases your deflection rating and defense against that target by 6% for 6 seconds.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration will be increased by 2 additional seconds. the bonus to deflection and defense are doubled if your initial attack is made from stealth.
Suggestion: Sneak Attack Class Feature
When the rogue initiates combat with this class feature active, they are granted combat advantage to the target and up to 3 additional targets within 15 feet of the target for 6 seconds. the rogues movement speed is also increased by 10% for 6 seconds and the initial target will suffer a 10% penalty to damage resistance.
With each additional rank of this power, the buff duration is increased by 2 additional seconds. The bonus to movement speed is doubled if your initial attack is made while in stealth.
Suggestion: Duelist's Flurry
The current method of this attack being slash>twirl blade>slash>twirl blade>flurry is far too slow, and always has been.
This is how I picture a reworked Duelist's Flurry:
"You slash your opponent with two lightning fast consecutive attacks leaving them stunned for a brief second and granting you combat advantage... and just to let your enemy know you have them right where you want them, you give your blade a quick twirl into position as you set the stage to unleash a devastating flurry of attacks on your helpless foe."
So this version would be more like: slash.slash>target is stunned for 1sec while you twirl blade>flurry
note* Due to the above listed Class Mechanic, this power would no longer have a baked in chance to cause bleeding. All bleeds would be applied based on the class mechanic, instead of being tied to only this power.
Suggestion: Sly Flourish
The sly nature of your flourish allows each attack with this power to cause a second unseen attack on your target that deals an additional 25% damage and slightly reduces their defense to further attacks from your flourish. this effect can stack up to 5 times and reduces your targets defense against sly flourish by 2% per stack.
So, there's most of them. I cut a few out in order to keep things reasonable, and I felt these were some of the most beneficial. Cheers!
EDIT: Just to keep things in one place for easier reference, I'll be updating this post to reflect any new feedback. I'm also linking it in my Sig.
Suggestion: *New* Scoundrel Epic Feat: Dirty Fighting (replacement for Mocking Gesture)
Your attacks on Dazed or otherwise controlled targets now have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to Critically Strike. Taking this feat will cause the 100% critical chance from stealth to no longer affect you.
Reason: Saboteur spec can achieve 100% crit rate inside stealth, and can maintain stealth very easily to achieve the bonus crit capability. This change would help bring Scoundrel spec up to par using the tools that are available to it while still offering a different play style that is not reliant on stealth.
+1 on these changes, especially the at wills
Is not like we can use infinite at will anymore so it should not be a crazy idea.
We are forced to use an outdated set to be viable and this is just an indirect way to nerf us.
Consider to not let shadow strike proc one with the shadows please, is a no sense.
GLOAMING CUT: It feel really slow and from a dps standpoint it's really lacking compared to every other at will. Consider to haste up a bit the animation