Can you make the stealth bar larger or at least contrasted in a way that makes it more obvious how much stealth is left? The GWF/GF bars are much easier to see.
Feedback: Trickster Rogue class in general (outside of stealth)
Developers, I think you really need to look closely at the class outside of stealth. Play it some without using stealth at all and realize what is at the base of the class. I think this would give some clarity into the concerns of some and allow you to realize why their may be varied feedback (e.g. the perma stealth, gloaming cut, 5x Improved Cunning Sneak, profound saboteur's experience versus the virtually no stealth, duelist flurry, no ICS, swashbuckling captain executioner's experience -- these play like two totally different classes). Other classes outside of their tab can be played reasonably well, with some hardly noticeable. The TR is a totally different animal in that regard.
The tab of the TR has always been strong, and likely the strongest in game and often considered OP by many. Even with (or more likely expressly due to) its power, it has ultimately held the TR back and even led to nerfs. I have no particular problems with a class having a tab make up more of what the class is than for other classes, it just has to be implemented with a more careful hand.
With these changes it seems as if you are trying to address this imbalance with the TR class tab, but when I compare the examples I gave above (the saboteur versus the executioner) it leads me to think you haven't thought carefully enough about what is at the base of the class, i.e. what is a TR outside of stealth.
I agree that TR needs to be more self sufficient OUTSIDE of stealth, for other classes, their tab skill is a bonus, but it's not NEEDED to survive, with TRs if you're not using stealth then you're dead.
also I agree with rayrdan feedback.
...
One with the shadow refills stealth in a strange way: some encounters let you become visible before refilling others not. Example: dazing strike---visible / blitz --- still stealthed.
...
I also noticed with one with the shadows sometimes you show the normal stealth bar and refill, and sometimes you show that secondary Lurker's version (the black and white version of it if you know what I mean by that).
VP toss and port are slow to cast. DHS was on the slow side of decent. SS took for-freakin-ever (just tossed it, excuse the pun).
All of these, especially the VP toss and port are affecting what should be a fast, hit-and-run style of play. I should be able to tap and dodge, as with dazing strike, but I can't. I have to sit and wait for the wind-up before anything happens. Yes, the animations are cool, but unless I'm in a party, I need to cast and roll 3 seconds ago. Experienced WKs may be used to this, but I am definitely used to faster hits as an MI (akin to SF, WR, Dazing, Deft, etc.)
WK was indeed very fun, but if cast times on some of these dagger-toss powers don't drop, then it's not really going to pick up much more than with a few niche players.
mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited October 2014
feedback
The new stealth paradigm
Over all I am fine with the new stealth paradigm hiweverbi noticed some issues.
First as Devs seem to want us to move away from stealth I have done all my testing without profound pvp armour or the +20% stealth feat.
The new paradigm encourages use of encounters over dailies but I ran into several problems.
Case 1(saboteur and) lashing blade is up or close to I stealth and roll away. I imediatelty stealth back and often could not get back to the enemy before stealth ran out. Timing had to be perfect and receive no damage
Case 2 (executioner wk) so following the use encounters tactically plan I ran into several issues I didn't notice as sab. After I drop stealth attacking with at wills should not reduce stealth it makes it very hard to time stealth and Lb with its long cooldown.
Example I'm doing a multi spawn HE I just killed second to last NPC with Lb and blitz softening the last npc. I have no stealth SS is up. I SS the last npc to fill my stealth remain unstralthed kill him with my at-will powers.
At this point I should be at full stealth bar with lashing blade commingle off cooldown but killing the npc at my stealth .
Basically I'm fine with at-wills eating stealth when in stealth bit of I have a full stealth bar and I am not stralthing it should remain full.
Over all 5s stealth slow movement speed and long coplsowns with at wills eating stealth out of stealth makes it hard to use stealth tactically
Finally on pve I don't think the burst damage of exexutioner is remotely useful in pve. Most npc I fought that didn't die to lb fell to the following blitz. Additionally Tr are too dependant on manually dodging out of the way the sound that I have no more stamina while chugging potions like koolaid is s sign of imminent death.
Defense speed and the need to mitigate penalties with feats and class features are my biggest gripe. Example tenacious concealment negates a penalty this doesn't create fun it removed anti fun. Why should I have to choose between a bonus (dagger threat ) and negating a penalty . Please examine how and why these penalties are applied or move the means to adjust them out of the class feature attempt.
Case 2 (executioner wk) so following the use encounters tactically plan I ran into several issues I didn't notice as sab. After I drop stealth attacking with at wills should not reduce stealth it makes it very hard to time stealth and Lb with its long cooldown.
Example I'm doing a multi spawn HE I just killed second to last NPC with Lb and blitz softening the last npc. I have no stealth SS is up. I SS the last npc to fill my stealth remain unstralthed kill him with my at-will powers.
At this point I should be at full stealth bar with lashing blade commingle off cooldown but killing the npc at my stealth .
Basically I'm fine with at-wills eating stealth when in stealth bit of I have a full stealth bar and I am not stralthing it should remain full.
I have not noticed this effect during any of my testing. I'll have to take a look at that when I go online later.
VP toss and port are slow to cast. DHS was on the slow side of decent. SS took for-freakin-ever (just tossed it, excuse the pun).
All of these, especially the VP toss and port are affecting what should be a fast, hit-and-run style of play. I should be able to tap and dodge, as with dazing strike, but I can't. I have to sit and wait for the wind-up before anything happens. Yes, the animations are cool, but unless I'm in a party, I need to cast and roll 3 seconds ago. Experienced WKs may be used to this, but I am definitely used to faster hits as an MI (akin to SF, WR, Dazing, Deft, etc.)
WK was indeed very fun, but if cast times on some of these dagger-toss powers don't drop, then it's not really going to pick up much more than with a few niche players.
VP toss is slow but now you can do it while moving it's OK. VP port is slow and occasionally buggy. I've stopped using VP again.
DiS isn't meant to be spammed so for me the cast time is adequate. I wouldn't complain if it were sped up a little though.
In fact...
Suggestion:
Now that stealth is a limited and precious resource the cast times of all TR skills should be revisited and in many cases reduced at least while in stealth. Eating up stealth time with slow animations now affects game play.
First as Devs seem to want us to move away from stealth I have done all my testing without profound pvp armour or the +20% stealth feat.
That is how I have been testing as well (except when I tested the saboteur to see just how easy perma stealth has now become in it). It is certainly an eye opener to test that way for those who haven't and I suggest they all test in this fashion.
Feedback: PVE Saboteur
CW: "Where's the Rogue?"
HR: "Dunno..."
CW: "I think I see something weak dying in the corner, I guess the rogue is still with us..."
HR: "Why did we bring a rogue with us?"
Saboteur basically must perma/semi-perma to both stay alive and effective. Overall DPS has risen significantly and they can clear trash mobs much more quickly than before. The current changes make solo play more interesting, but it doesn't bring any utility or enough DPS to be desirable for PVE groups.
Feedback: PVE Scoundrel
CW: "Where's the Rogue?"
HR: "Seeing if he can solo the stuff we already can..."
CW: "Is it working?"
HR: "He seems to think so..."
Scoundrel is very survivable now, it works okay in and out of stealth. Fairly low DPS, but it does bring the potential for daze-locking targets. Overall, it brings very little to the table for group run PVE content. While I applaud certain prominent Whisper Knife Rogues for showcasing that solo PVE is still viable with the WK-Scoundrel build, the dev-stated goal of making rogues more useful in PVE content has not been fully met. This is an MMO and attempting to balance a class by its ability to solo content is counter-productive…
Feedback: PVE Executioner
CW: "Where's the Rogue?"
HR and CW: "Bwahahahahahahaha..."
This is an interesting concept with a terrible execution. The executioner survivability and damage are both tied to excessively limited stealth. Considering how fragile these rogues are, the current DPS increase doesn't even bring this rogue path to an equivalent state as the highly nerfed mod 4 version. This path has virtually no use in PVE groups, because they are far too fragile for their limited spike damage boost.
Feedback: Rogue Changes Overall Solo play for perma-stealth Saboteurs has been strengthened and is essentially easier to achieve than before. The devs have also given the rogue a new mode for solo play, mainly by strengthening the Whisper Knife + Scoundrel path. They have quite a bit of work ahead to make the rogue changes actually worthwhile in PVE group content. Or they can simplify things tremendously by eliminating or lowering PVE at-will stealth depletion.
At-will depletion of stealth in PVP = GOOD for the game as a whole!
At-will depletion of stealth in PVE = BAD for the class as a whole!
The devs should strongly consider splitting the at-will stealth depletion between PVP and PVE.
Although I'm sure there are avenues the devs can follow to improve the usefulness of rogues in PVE group content, they run the risk of making rogues too strong in PVP content. Stealth is THE rogue ability that requires specialized builds or player skill to counter effectively in PVP. Choosing at-will depletion to be the splitting point between PVP and PVE is probably the best option going forward.
Campaign - Trail of the Imaskarcana (NWS-DMFG77QOF)
Feedback: PVE Saboteur
CW: "Where's the Rogue?"
HR: "Dunno..."
CW: "I think I see something weak dying in the corner, I guess the rogue is still with us..."
HR: "Why did we bring a rogue with us?"
Saboteur basically must perma/semi-perma to both stay alive and effective. Overall DPS has risen significantly and they can clear trash mobs much more quickly than before. The current changes make solo play more interesting, but it doesn't bring any utility or enough DPS to be desirable for PVE groups.
Feedback: PVE Scoundrel
CW: "Where's the Rogue?"
HR: "Seeing if he can solo the stuff we already can..."
CW: "Is it working?"
HR: "He seems to think so..."
Scoundrel is very survivable now, it works okay in and out of stealth. Fairly low DPS, but it does bring the potential for daze-locking targets. Overall, it brings very little to the table for group run PVE content. While I applaud certain prominent Whisper Knife Rogues for showcasing that solo PVE is still viable with the WK-Scoundrel build, the dev-stated goal of making rogues more useful in PVE content has not been fully met. This is an MMO and attempting to balance a class by its ability to solo content is counter-productive…
Feedback: PVE Executioner
CW: "Where's the Rogue?"
HR and CW: "Bwahahahahahahaha..."
This is an interesting concept with a terrible execution. The executioner survivability and damage are both tied to excessively limited stealth. Considering how fragile these rogues are, the current DPS increase doesn't even bring this rogue path to an equivalent state as the highly nerfed mod 4 version. This path has virtually no use in PVE groups, because they are far too fragile for their limited spike damage boost.
Feedback: Rogue Changes Overall Solo play for perma-stealth Saboteurs has been strengthened and is essentially easier to achieve than before. The devs have also given the rogue a new mode for solo play, mainly by strengthening the Whisper Knife + Scoundrel path. They have quite a bit of work ahead to make the rogue changes actually worthwhile in PVE group content. Or they can simplify things tremendously by eliminating or lowering PVE at-will stealth depletion.
At-will depletion of stealth in PVP = GOOD for the game as a whole!
At-will depletion of stealth in PVE = BAD for the class as a whole!
The devs should strongly consider splitting the at-will stealth depletion between PVP and PVE.
Although I'm sure there are avenues the devs can follow to improve the usefulness of rogues in PVE group content, they run the risk of making rogues too strong in PVP content. Stealth is THE rogue ability that requires specialized builds or player skill to counter effectively in PVP. Choosing at-will depletion to be the splitting point between PVP and PVE is probably the best option going forward.
Im inclined to agree with you on everything except the splitting of pvp and pve. Other classes can do the exact same things in both (im looking at OP CW). Screw the other classes if they whinge in pvp after we get our class dps and survivability and aoe fixed up to the levels they should have been. I HATE that my gwf has only 12500 GS 2 artifacts and blues/purples can easily out dps and out tank my 15k TR and does it all in less than half the time. I hate the fact my gwf can also do 70k crits on dragons whilst my TR with all draconic and other niceties can only get a 22k lashing crit IF IM LUCKY.
IT MAKES NO <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> SENSE
Other classes whinge about TR in pvp as it is now, they just dont know how to play their class and dont understand our class. Iv been called a hacker, lame Perma (i dont play perma), or cheat only because iv pushed our weakling class to its limits to perform in pvp. In pve i truly feel useless in any dungeon whilst literally EVERY OTHER CLASS out performs me.
TR is meant to be THE TOP DAMAGE DEALER, thats the role rogues play in every MMO dont let anyone convince you otherwise.
Feedback: Shadow of Demise Purely PvE
AoE powers used from stealth apply this debuff to a random target hit. It's very difficult to manage this proc due to buffed Dazing Strike, which is a strong tool to open with. SoD is being applied to a random enemy, sometimes it's the farthest or the weakest one (which will be likely dead right after DS hit). I have 2 suggestions for this matter:
1. Apply SoD to the closest enemy, if the power that activated it is an AoE.
2. Allow SoD to be applied to any number of targets, but split it's damage among them.
I prefer the second option tho.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
This is an interesting concept with a terrible execution. The executioner survivability and damage are both tied to excessively limited stealth. Considering how fragile these rogues are, the current DPS increase doesn't even bring this rogue path to an equivalent state as the highly nerfed mod 4 version. This path has virtually no use in PVE groups, because they are far too fragile for their limited spike damage boost.
The dps increase is significant, at-wills depleting stealth did not hurt this path. All you need to do is use stealth for your encounter power and spam DF with the first tier feat from saboteur for more damage while stealth bar is not full. Survival is lacking yes, but its not any worse than it already is. Just let the GWF/GF run ahead first, rogue is not meant to be the rush in and smash them type.
I HATE that my gwf has only 12500 GS 2 artifacts and blues/purples can easily out dps and out tank my 15k TR and does it all in less than half the time. I hate the fact my gwf can also do 70k crits on dragons whilst my TR with all draconic and other niceties can only get a 22k lashing crit IF IM LUCKY.
Duh. You are using draconic that has almost no power. Try getting either swashbuckler 4 set or 2 piece dread 2 piece fabled / master assassins set for the bonus power. I have 11k power, 2500 armor pen and hit 40k regular hits and up to 200k crits with buffs/debuffs from GF/DC with lashing blade.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2014
Hey guys,
I have been far too busy to clean the feedback threads. I finally set some time aside and rogues got the scrubbing first.
Please remember the threads exist for YOU to provide feedback to the devs. Not to debate ideas with other people. Please do not debate your views with other people and please leave the theorycrafgting out of this thread. This thread is only for feedback directed at the developers.
I left a lot of the debates and theorycrafting but this stuff will not be permitted in the thread from this point forward.
As always if you have any concerns about certain posts being removed from the thread I will review it on a case by case basis if you send me a personal message.
I tested now a bit of Executioneer and it seems i got it all wrong how to play it. *sorry for that*
The damage it does is really good and i like the idea of it to use stealth to force the T5 Feat to activate as often as possible. But it has a big Problem: stealth regeneration.
I must use [Shadow Strike] to regenerate my stealth. Because of my cooldown i only can use it every 15 seconds and it feels odd to use one of my three precious encounter slots. In the current situation i am a bit "meh".
On one hand it's okay for me, because it's the way how i can play a good DPS machine, on the other hand i sacrifice my flexibility. On a gamedesign decision i can understand it. But to speak it out loud, if i sacrifice an encounter slot i still want more damage in PvE. At least 25% more then in the current situation because the difference in damage between saboteur and executioneer is not big enough to justify it in my opinion. The damage gap is there (~10K Sab VS ~17K Exe) but not big enough in my opinion to sacrifice the ability to be undetectable by monsters. Overall there is a problem about the survivability and the handling of this feat tree. I mean, if i get attacked or stand in an void i only can dodge, okay we have more dodges but the problem is, if i dodge i dropp my DPS and [Impossible To Catch] is nerfed which means i can't use it as "damage sponge" anymore.
Another solution would be to give us a feat in the executioneer path that says: By every critical hit you gain x% stealth. It would mean: i am out of stealth, i deal my DF get stealth back because of the feat, go in stealth, attack instantly with encounter, get T5-Feat-BUFF, deal DF get stealth back *repeat*.
It must not be 1 DF that gives me all my stealth back it could be 2-3 DF which means i have a good chance to get in stealth in like 10-15 secs from alone and if i am a good player and can handle the "sacrifice" of one of my encounter for shadow strike for additional DPS i would be really lucky.
1. Make "Tenacious concealment" work for that 15% drain as well
it seems redundant as a passive as it right now on preview and it
certainly would justify the name of it.Plus it would give some flavor to the amount of TR out there as it gives additional options to many different builds, BOTH IN PVP AND PVE.
2. I m also the supporter of making stealth bar bigger
3. Please fix all bugs on preview as it is and be sure to somehow let us know i.e. fix bonus damage from combat advantage due to CHA
4. Give TR a 'resistance ignore' ability score (OR justify why it hasn't got one)
5. As a DnD player for almost a decade now i should remind you that INT is a very important score for a DnD rogue cause thats where they get their feats.You might be able to work something there in order to make up from a possible underperforming of the class
6. Give incentive to more players to enter the preview i.e. possibly a chance to earn a rare or epic account bound mount every day, its not more than 40 mounts or something else , i dont really know what. In any case ITS NOT JUST SOME MODIFICATION, ITS A WHOLE CLASS REWORK, we need more players, and not just TR's to test more and different scenarios
7. You could give a bonus to the deflection severity of this class, many problems of attacking/defending outside of stealth could be solved
8. Concerning Perma's: I know you might not believe it , but it doesn't take much skill to counter one as it is right now
9. This one is NOT a TR feedback but a general observation : Rework bonus HP items give you , or give them a CON bonus. When a class is designed to have 20k HP (we are talking for 10 CON) and can make it up to 44k HP it means that it plays with 70 CON , cant u see that many of the game's issues are born from that thing ?
Feedback:
I think TR still needs more defenses when outside stealth, currently it's too dependant on it to survive, and now stealth being shorter than ever it also adds a lot of difficulty to survival.
Scoundrel helps a lot with the dazes, but that's one of the 3 aviable trees, TR needs a way to defend homself outside stealth for all trees, and both MI and WK.
Other classes are not so dependant of their tab skill to survive.
What I would really like to see be introduced are faster at-wills and some form of improved evasion both WK and MI can use, vs just relying on good timing of ITC and leaving WK in the dust. Be it 100% deflect for aoe skills only, 75% bonus aoe resist, something that says "Look, I'm a D&D rogue and I make my reflex saves."
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
What I would really like to see be introduced are faster at-wills and some form of improved evasion both WK and MI can use, vs just relying on good timing of ITC and leaving WK in the dust. Be it 100% deflect for aoe skills only, 75% bonus aoe resist, something that says "Look, I'm a D&D rogue and I make my reflex saves."
I suggested this earlier a feat that increases how. Much dex affects aoe damage resist. Or even higher deflect vs aoe.
What I would really like to see be introduced are faster at-wills and some form of improved evasion both WK and MI can use, vs just relying on good timing of ITC and leaving WK in the dust. Be it 100% deflect for aoe skills only, 75% bonus aoe resist, something that says "Look, I'm a D&D rogue and I make my reflex saves."
Agreed. Shorter cast times and faster stealth/stamina recharges would come in handy. WK doesn't need an ITC-like power per se as they should be dodging more effectively, but a feat that helps improve dodge rolls in general wouldn't go amiss.
* Stealth loss/failure to generate during onslaught of attacks makes escape almost impossible. With no considerable defense/deflection and a low HP count this is a critical oversight. You can only roll out of combat so many times and unfortunately you never quite get far enough away - you can easily say stack hp, defense and deflect but you lose dps which is already too low, stacking these would only mean the dps stats of this class would be the same as they are now. * Dazing strike only hits 1 target out of stealth, which is fine if you can regenerate stealth during combat (which you cant) which renders it fairly useless.
The extra DPS is long overdue and a welcome improvement but the losses to the class are grievous.
I don't often play PVP but how can we expect to play a role in PVP content against mindless control wizard onslaught when our encounter powers (in particular ITC) are locked while being controlled meanwhile the over powered control wizard can unleash I tirade of 3 or 4 encounters without any possibility to escape, consequently spelling inevitable death
These changes are entirely too focused on PVP with not enough done. More consideration needs to be done to extend the abilities and role of a TR in PVE. We should be the highest 1v1 dps based class in the game, but not solely limited to 1v1 combat all the time.
In my opinion far too much DPS has been given to the control wizard, hunter ranger and scourge warlock classes. I could only wish my TR had anywhere near the same DPS as a hunter ranger using his blades.
We have no range, no ability to take on or control adds (other than smoke bomb) where are the concerns surrounding this? I feel like our class has been repeatedly overlooked and now that we are finally getting noticed, you don't seem to want to provide us with the basic PVE skills we require to be efficient in the game.
I have been far too busy to clean the feedback threads. I finally set some time aside and rogues got the scrubbing first.
Please remember the threads exist for YOU to provide feedback to the devs. Not to debate ideas with other people. Please do not debate your views with other people and please leave the theorycrafgting out of this thread. This thread is only for feedback directed at the developers.
I left a lot of the debates and theorycrafting but this stuff will not be permitted in the thread from this point forward.
As always if you have any concerns about certain posts being removed from the thread I will review it on a case by case basis if you send me a personal message.
Thanks!
Finally! Thanks! I hope people won't invest time putting to shame others' feedback anymore
It would be nice to get some sort of feedback on what other fixes changes you guys are up to for the TR. There are a lot that play the TR as main, and being stuck in 'limbo' with these changes leaves little motivation to play. Feedback, good or bad, gives us motivation.
I second this, I have the same demotivation on playing TR on live...
Currently, on live, I'm a MI semi-permastealth Executioner, I'm focused on PvE but I still can get fun in PvP too
and I feel that the only way to continue playing TR with the upcoming changes, if I want to get a decent survivability, is going MI Saboteur or a Saboteur-Executioner hybrid...
but that would force me into a playstyle that I find very boring, using GC more than I'd Like
and would also force me to chose feats that helps recovering stealth over feats that would increase my dps
(as if I shouldn't worry about Ap gain and Stamina regeneration for that matter)
plus, DF and ITC were the center of my build but now they are useless powers
I already suggested leaving stealth mechanic, ITC and "Dazing Blades" feat as they were, for the PvE part of the game
but I'd like to make other suggestions that, even if less preferable, could work well, and maybe follow on the path of changes you are making
At wills can be used while moving and don't root the player on place
( maybe, if 0 root-time is too much, they could root the player on place for a fifth or a quarter of the time they do now )
Duelist Flurry, on the third animation, lets you move around the target
I'd like to see in the rogue, the same mobility that Xuna has on the cinematic trailer, jumping from mob to mob
( deft strike's cooldown is too higher to allow such mobility )
when hitting in combat advantage I'd like seeing the rogue place some debuff on mobs, allowing team members to deal more damage ( Damage Resistance debuff is somehow useless, since most pve players have armor penetration capped in order to ignore 24% of DR... and in this aspect, Wicked Reminder isn't much of help as a debuffing power )
i mean... if a rogue hits a mob from behind, crippling it, it should put some nice debuff on him
it could be that after placing that debuff, more damage from the rogue and from the team members, makes him bleed more... or reduce the monster's power/damage/recovery
I also have another suggestion, maybe a little OT since it involves a change in the way pve content works, but i'd like to share it
Deft Strike lets you teleport to a friendly target when used from stealth, when this target is in 80' range
this could be used to implement some kind of puzzle content in pve... like shortcuts in dungeons... and this would make TR really useful in a team, and in a different way from raw dps support
I'd like to see more creative ways to proceed rather than hack n slash enemies with huge hp pools
unless you are saboteur spec and using GC, you shouldn't be using at-wills while stealthed.
This would seem to be the case, however. Since at-wills drain stealth and do not break it, doesn't it seem like some at-will usage is intended during stealth? With DHS you can actually hit 2 or so opponents with it and still have time for one encounter, which 2 DHS from stealth adds up to no small amount of damage. With Sly flourish you can also pop a few hits on something and then use an encounter.
The two at-wills where the stealth drain is most crippling is cloud of steel and duelist flurry. Cloud of steel builds damage per consecutive hit. Since you'll lose your stealth long before you get to the end of a full 8 dagger chuck, Your losing far more damage than you would from sly flourish, since every hit from sly does the same damage.
On duelist flurry, the flurry phase of this power consists of many hits, and it locks on for the full cascade of blows. Your committed through the entire attack. This means you can't save some stealth for an encounter, and with how many "at-will usage" and how fast and unpredictable the stealth drain comes, your stealth just evaporates. Furthermore, a large percentage of flurry damage comes from the bleed portion of the power, which if flurry is used from stealth you will almost never get auto-crit or gear related stealth damage and combat advantage of DF bleed. This adds up to a tremendous loss of damage for flurry compared to other at-wills from stealth, less even than on live where you can at least get stealth bonuses.
The stealth drain comes across as a very targeted nerf to both duelist flurry and cloud of steel. This will be the second nerf to hit cloud of steel. However, in regards to duelist flurry, this will be the 8th consecutive nerf of this power, including many direct nerfs, nerfs to feats related to flurry, including the complete removal of deadly momentum, nerfs to other factors which affect flurry more than any other power, such as the aforementioned stealth drain. None of these nerfs have been in any way slight. The end result is the nigh complete destruction of the power to virtual uselessness in almost any situation. The only situation I have found room for flurry as a useable power is via the scoundrel path where the heavy CC allows for such long, risky power outside of stealth.
I find it as no coincidence that COS and flurry are the most heavily targeted powers in the stealth drain implementation as they are the most commonly used powers in perma-stealth PVP builds. However, I find it unjustified that these changes roll-over to affect PVE to such a large degree, mostly in the case of flurry. Either readjust stealth drain to take into account the many, low-damage hits of COS and flurry. Or make both of these powers vastly more useable outside of stealth.
I also feel that triple buffing gloaming cut, while leaving it exempt from stealth drain was a mistake. This power received auto-crit, stealth related feat buffs, and a increase to health missing damage. Furthermore, it retained it's feat specific stealth gain-sneaky stabber. Many people are saying this power is slow, or easy to counter. Something that might not be immediately obvious is that this power is not often used, and very often underestimated. I have played for over a year with this power living on my hotbar next to duelist flurry. I have very rarely seen people use GC or use it to it's maximum potential. Considering that I have used this power to great effect in pvp, I would not consider it to be weak on live. Now, does this mean that I am a gifted genius with gloaming cut, or does this mean that not many people have learned to use this power because they never needed to before. I would guess the latter, and I would not expect that to last. Once people do master gloaming cut, and I'm guessing it's not going to take very long becuase the learning curve is not nearly as steep as flurry, everyone is going to be wishing for the old flurry using perma's back. I would highly recomend not leaving it exempt from stealth drain, while leaving sneaky stabber intact, essentially GC would drain 5% of stealth per use, I feel that would be fair.
I dedicated 6 hours playing today to test the new TR changes and here are my feedback.
Feedback: Saboteur The design is nice but if find the following unpleasant. T1
Shady Preperations: Entering Stealth reduces all your cooldowns by 2/4/6/8/10%. - I find this useless.
T2
Knife's Edge: Activating a Daily reduces all of your cooldowns by 3/6/9/12/15%. -another useless feat.
T3
Return to Shadows: While behind your target, dealing damage with Encounter Powers refills 10/20/30/40/50% of your Stealth Meter. This effect cannot trigger when leaving stealth. - I used Deft Strike and it didnt refill my meter.
T4
Ambusher's Haste: While Stealthed you gain a damage bonus of 5/10/15/20/25%. This bonus dimishes as your stealth meter drains out. -with the new stealth mechanics this is useless (who will use a encounter when the stealth bar is full?)
T5
One with the Shadows: Every 20 seconds you gain "One with the Shadows". While you are affected by "One with the Shadows" the next time you deal damage with an Encounter Power you instantly refill your Stealth Meter and gain a 20% damage buff to Stealth Encounter Powers for 10 seconds. -wasted when proc by shadow strike.
Feedback: Scoundrel The rework is nice but there are some redundant feats so it feels like I'm putting 10 points just to get one benefit.
Feedback: Executioner Something still missing I used it for 2 hours and it does not live up to its name. Worst of the three paths.
Feedback:Stealth
Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack.
Stealth: Now also grants 100% Critical Chance in addition to Combat Advantage.
That 15% drain is too much to bear TR At-wills are all multi-hit(except GC). I would like to remind you guys that stealth is depleted by damage taken already so that means another load is pilled in our burden. If you will implement that 15% well at least tone it down to a reasonable percentage because in order to maintain stealth we need to run out of fights and bound ourselves to Tenacious Concealment and Shadow Strike so that means one less encounter and passive for us. I think that at-damage taken depletion on our meter should go because it is unnecessary (think of a TAB that is useless the entire fight).
Bug: Disciple of Strength not working
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited October 2014
So, I played WK Scoundrel today and all i have to say is.. wow.. I honestly think this path is the closest one to being completely game ready. Here is my set up
15kgs, Whisperknife Scoundrel primary, saboteur secondary. Sly Flurish and Disheartening strike for at wills. Hatefulknives and Whirlwind of blades as my Dailies.
for my Class features my first set up was razor action, and advantageous position
for encounters intial setup was Dazling strike, smoke bomb ss
This setup worked okay, and was the first of any Build i have done during this test able to take out an HE that had Elite NPC opponents. However, i struggled with large amounts and stillw as constantly bouncing around. Some of this might be mittigated when the accidentally dazing myself bugs are fixed.
However, it was my second setup that really shone
class features initially First strike and advantageous position
encounters, path of he blade, blitz shadow strike.
So, this set up was an Aoe machine, constantly laying down damage, it didnt matter if i was bouncing arund because i was either a/blitz b/path of the blde c/ reseting up with shadow strike my Ap gainw as solid and between cooldown reduction for re-entering stealth and for using a daily i had no problem cycling any of my powers.
The first big HE i did was the assembly listed for 1-5 players, this showed the survivability and possibly some of the weaknesses. The first time i attempted to do this, i realized i had forgotten to buy potions, in fact the only potons on me were lvl 20? healing potions from a lockbox. But i successfully did the dance for a very very long time.
of note here, looking my character ove rmy base lifesteal stat is only 400, i do have 1100 regeneraton and the melee enchantment that does lifesteal.
So as I said though this showed all the positive aspects over my character and possibly some of the negative ones. When fightig lvl 60 or 61 npc I had no real issues, It was only when i got down to the lvl 62 NPC that things slowed to a crawl basically it took forever to kill them. Eventually i did Die in my first attempt, but as i mentioned i was using lvl 20 healing pots.
So i bught proper potions, went back in and switched Tactition in for first strike, it seems pretty solid.
Of the three paths i have tested, this is the one that i was able to get the most success from accomplishing game goals as a 15k Gs player. That said i found the first two feats of the path not very exciting and the constant fealing that a CW or HR of my Gs wouldnt struggle for any of the encountrs i was struggling with.
I'll also note that, as a Single target DPS as our primary role, in ever case for all three paths i played trying to be a single target dps charcter got me killed. the final Scoundrel build was basically Aoe control.
I plan to test Executioner again using the Two cooldown reduction feats from saboteur, but will get to that later. At the end of the day though the Tr is constantly moving i rarely if ever get to just target an NPC and wack at it with my at wills, because if any of them hit me Im dead. the Deflection feats from scoundrel did not do alot because in order to make use of them i would have to switch to purified ice gear and massively nerf my damage.
Restealthing is an issue. Currently, my test builds have no problems at all in clearing any PvE content with reasonably satisfactory results -- but it always requires Shadow Strike to gain the proper initiative
IMO, "stealth refills with at-wills" are out of the question. So is "ignores attacks and auto-refill at same rate"s. Be it PvE or PvP, there needs to be a certain amount of demerit to being visible.
There also must be a way for the opponent -- again, be it PvE or PvP -- to keep pressure on the TR makes a mistake and comes out of stealth at the wrong timing.
Comparisons to other classes [TAB] functions are misleading and inelevant: the only thing that matters is if this function does the job for the class, and if its reasonably balanced for other classes or mobs that face it
Above things considered; the following would be necessary IMO:
List of Necessary Changes for stealth
■ Base stealth duration itself is increased by +2s to 8s
■ Feat: Improved Cunning Sneak value is increased to 8/12/16/20/25%
■ Skulker/Profound armor set stealth increase value lowered
※ This is necessary, because IMO, the current default stealth duration was set by the devs with the old system in mind, with constant and easy stealth refills, and sufficient number of at-wills attacks made during the base 6 second duration. Currently, without using the Profound sets, advanced gear like BIs or above only provide time enough for maybe 2~3 CoS throws and then the stealth is out. Even when no attacks are used, 6s is woefully low to be worthy of maneuvering or repositioning. This change seeks to increase the base stealth duration for all TRs to around 10s, with possible slight buffs from Skulker/Profound sets extending it to around 12~13 secs.
■ At-will attacks deplete stealth at lower value (my proposition is 10%)
※ 15% is a bit overly punishing.
■ Feat:Twilight Adept value increased to 3/6/9/12/15% of the stealth meter
■ Stealth meter no longer "halts" regeneration for a long time, when receiving an attack.
■ Stealth meter no longer "depletes" on received attack. it will only slow it down for the moment.
■ Attacks received while stealth meter recharges, will slow it down by 50%
■ Feat: Tenacious Concealment changed to a direct defensive feat -- 2/4/6% more deflect severity
※ These changes are crucial in that it offers a certain demerit when the TR is out of stealth, but not at the current punitive levels where it becomes effectively impossible to restealth without SS. The current problem has two parts:
(1) The long halt: Upon receiving damage, meter stops regenerating even when attack stops
(2) The depletion: upon receiving damage, meter actively depletes
In PvE, there are often multiple incoming mob-attacks. In PvP, a player attacks much faster and often than a mob. DoTs can also be applied. Both results are the same. Without SS a TR cannot restealth.
IMO:
(1) needs to be abandoned
(2) needs to be changed
10s worth of stealth meter should always take 10s to refill. Every attack received while meter is refilling, will not hack away the meter, but slow it down by 50%, so if constantly under attack, 10s worth of stealth will take 15s to recharge. This is actually around similar timing to SS -- 16s default recharge, 11~13s with high recharge builds. The increase in value of the stealth refilling feat:Twilight Adept will synergize much better once stealth meter cannot be actively depleted by enemy action.
2. Saboteuer
...is in a good place right now
3. Scoundrel
■ Roll with the Punches value increased by 1/2/3/4/5% more deflect chance
■ Bloody Brawler function changed and renamed to support a 10% further stamina increase rate and 9/12/15/18/20% lower stamina cost for dodges
■ Survivor threshold upped from 30% to 50%
■ Savage Blows function changed and renamed to support a 3/6/9/12/15% stamina bar refull on successful dodge
■ Skull Cracker movement speed changed to 40% increase
※ Scoundrel is currently at a good place with the dazes. That's one-half of the core function fulfilled. However the other half -- the brawling-survival related feats, are largely redundant and not working well.
The life-steal feats seems to suggest the devs have sort-of envisioned a pseudo-HR-ish, life-steal dependant defense, but the HRs survival and tankiness is not only OP as it is(IMO), but also depends on a variety of different defensive mechanics working together at the same time.
IMO, what we want to do, is simply accept the result of being damaged. A damage is a damage, and that shouldn't be so simplified nullifed by instantly replenishment of life through regen and LS (...and DR class features ...and auto-dodge buffs ...and Wilds Medicine ...and... etc etc..) -- the main complaints and frustrations while fighting a HR comes from the fact that all your efforts are simply nullified over a short time. No matter how well you've managed the game and initially hurt the HR more, once you lose the initiative all your results are just nullified, and its as if the fight is starting anew, with the HR with fresh pool of HP, but you remaining damaged. This is why people see it as OP, and I agree with it. A well managed game where you've hurt your opponent badly, should be an advantage good enough to press, or rememdy your own mistake -- not have it simply made null.
That's why I don't want the same regen/LS/deflect-HP mechanic with the TR. It's OP. I don't want it. Instead, IMO a TR's defense is reached through dodges, and it is also at the heart of its mobility. Any changes that seek to increase the survivability of the TR must come through dodge.
Hence, a deflect-based mechanic that synergizes with dodge/stamina IMO makes sense. The damage you receive is still there. No bullshi* infinitie life refills. However with more deflects, more dodges. If changes go into this direction, all TRs will have either a 5% higher deflect, or a 10% higher stamina regen with 20% reduction in dodge cost as an extra T1 feat to choose if they wish it.
Current dodge cost is 50 in Live -- two dodges. Preview is supposed to reduce that to 33 for 3 dodges, but its not working properly. With the changed T1 feat, the 33 cost will go down to 24.75 (20% reduction) -- giving an extra dodge for a total of 4. With the increased stamina regen, by the time you do 4 straight dodges the stamina will have refilled for an extra 5th. So that's a dodge mechanic on par with the HRs. Not as fast and responsive, but at least the TRs can match the numbers.
Further investment into Scoundrel will allow a 10% stamina refill on deflection. So the more attacks you deflect, the more stamina you get back, the more dodges you can make -- an acrobatic defense as a TR seems natural. It also synergizes with the Feat:Twilight Adept and the stealth changes. The more successful deflects you make, the more you will be dodging around, and the quicker your stealth meter will recharge -- perhaps, good enough to fight even without SS.
The Skull Cracker increase in movement speed is a good start, but some classes are still way too fast while dazed, even with that 25% increase. I would suggest a 40% increase -- a surge of movement speed during that 5~6 second time when you gain the initiative through Skull Cracker.
4. Executioner
■ Class feature: First Strike now resets after 6 seconds of non-combat action, regardless of combat status. It also has a visible queue to show that it is in works
■ Vicious Pursuit should add a slight slow -- 15% speed reduction -- during the duration
■ Exposed Weakness is a bit redundant, and should be changed to feat that increases damage of at-wills -- maybe something like, "for 6s after coming out of stealth, the damage of all at-wills are increased by the value of the crit stat"
■ Shadow of Demise should once again apply to all targets hit by the encounter proccing it
※ Executioners have a big one-shot attack. Except that only works when there are actually targets that can be one-shotted... and in PvE, anything harder than 1~2 man content with elite grade mobs no single Lashing Blade, however powerful it is, will ever one-shot a mob. The problem begins when you hit one big attack, but to the mob that receives that deals only like 10~15% damage. Now you're out of stealth, have 3~4 of those on you, how is the Executioner going to fight?
While not Executioner related, it is true First Strike is often most used by Executioner builds. Having a visual queue as to its activeness, as well as forced reset regardless of combat status should help them. Particularly if the Executioners try make use of AoEs for stealthed-first strike material, that now correctly proc SoD on all targets, combined with forced resetting after 6 seconds of non-combat action (no DoTs dealt or received, no artifacts or debuffs on hostile target, etc..) that should considerably help them in PvE as well as PvP.
Also, another problem the Executioners face, is that not only they are devoid of any functional defense, but they are quite poor in terms of sustained damage. When they fail to finish off the targets with initial attacks, they are out of stealth, and they must have something to press that first strike advantage -- so IMO the motto of the Executioner would probably be "kill before be killed.
An at-will damage increase in direct correlation with crit stat, so if someone has a 30% crit chance that value will directly transfer to all at-wills with 30% damage increase, after leaving stealth for 6 seconds, should be at least good enough to superbly empower any at-will so it becomes almost as powerful as an encounter, for 6 seconds.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Restealthing is an issue. Currently, my test builds have no problems at all in clearing any PvE content with reasonably satisfactory results -- but it always requires Shadow Strike to gain the proper initiative
I agree with this. When constantly taking damage, whether soloing or from aoe in group play, the only way to refill our stealth meter is to use shadowstrike. I think this is unfair and needs to be changed. I would like to see a constant refill regardless of if we take damage so we can reliably be able to restealth and use our encounters from stealth without having to shadowstrike. Currently it is not worth using more than one damaging encounter because you only have shadowstrike to refill, so I use ITC even when I know I don't really need it.
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lordfuzunMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 54
This would seem to be the case, however. Since at-wills drain stealth and do not break it, doesn't it seem like some at-will usage is intended during stealth? With DHS you can actually hit 2 or so opponents with it and still have time for one encounter, which 2 DHS from stealth adds up to no small amount of damage. With Sly flourish you can also pop a few hits on something and then use an encounter.
The two at-wills where the stealth drain is most crippling is cloud of steel and duelist flurry. Cloud of steel builds damage per consecutive hit. Since you'll lose your stealth long before you get to the end of a full 8 dagger chuck, Your losing far more damage than you would from sly flourish, since every hit from sly does the same damage.
On duelist flurry, the flurry phase of this power consists of many hits, and it locks on for the full cascade of blows. Your committed through the entire attack. This means you can't save some stealth for an encounter, and with how many "at-will usage" and how fast and unpredictable the stealth drain comes, your stealth just evaporates. Furthermore, a large percentage of flurry damage comes from the bleed portion of the power, which if flurry is used from stealth you will almost never get auto-crit or gear related stealth damage and combat advantage of DF bleed. This adds up to a tremendous loss of damage for flurry compared to other at-wills from stealth, less even than on live where you can at least get stealth bonuses.
The stealth drain comes across as a very targeted nerf to both duelist flurry and cloud of steel. This will be the second nerf to hit cloud of steel. However, in regards to duelist flurry, this will be the 8th consecutive nerf of this power, including many direct nerfs, nerfs to feats related to flurry, including the complete removal of deadly momentum, nerfs to other factors which affect flurry more than any other power, such as the aforementioned stealth drain. None of these nerfs have been in any way slight. The end result is the nigh complete destruction of the power to virtual uselessness in almost any situation. The only situation I have found room for flurry as a useable power is via the scoundrel path where the heavy CC allows for such long, risky power outside of stealth.
I find it as no coincidence that COS and flurry are the most heavily targeted powers in the stealth drain implementation as they are the most commonly used powers in perma-stealth PVP builds. However, I find it unjustified that these changes roll-over to affect PVE to such a large degree, mostly in the case of flurry. Either readjust stealth drain to take into account the many, low-damage hits of COS and flurry. Or make both of these powers vastly more useable outside of stealth.
I also feel that triple buffing gloaming cut, while leaving it exempt from stealth drain was a mistake. This power received auto-crit, stealth related feat buffs, and a increase to health missing damage. Furthermore, it retained it's feat specific stealth gain-sneaky stabber. Many people are saying this power is slow, or easy to counter. Something that might not be immediately obvious is that this power is not often used, and very often underestimated. I have played for over a year with this power living on my hotbar next to duelist flurry. I have very rarely seen people use GC or use it to it's maximum potential. Considering that I have used this power to great effect in pvp, I would not consider it to be weak on live. Now, does this mean that I am a gifted genius with gloaming cut, or does this mean that not many people have learned to use this power because they never needed to before. I would guess the latter, and I would not expect that to last. Once people do master gloaming cut, and I'm guessing it's not going to take very long becuase the learning curve is not nearly as steep as flurry, everyone is going to be wishing for the old flurry using perma's back. I would highly recomend not leaving it exempt from stealth drain, while leaving sneaky stabber intact, essentially GC would drain 5% of stealth per use, I feel that would be fair.
I have to agree witht all of the Duelist Flurry comments in this post. Removal of the Deadly Momentum has gutted the build I was using for my TR. But I'd like to talk a specifically about the implementation of Stealth Dragin in Duelist Flurry. I don't understand exactly how the Stealth Drain is inmplmentated in the Power engine. But I seems to be part put in as part of the "damage" effects of the power. This I believe guts Duelist's Flurry use during Stealth too severely. As all other have said the Stealth meter is exhausted before completing a full cycle of Flurry.
The monkey wrench is the drain per hit during the flurry phase of the cycle. Draining so much Stealth plus the natural reduction of Stealth and the TR is locked during this phase of the attack is the sin. Duelist Flurry's implementation of Stealth Drain should be 1 tick of drain at the initiation of each attack of the cycle. If this implementation in variation of this Duelist Flurry is going to be retired and replaced by plain and boring Sly Flourish on my power bar
Edit:
And on speaking of motivation for the devs, the TR was the character class that I feel in love with during the beta of Neverwinter. It was the class I decided on rolling of my first character when the game soft launched. I splurged on the character as it was my main. But all of the changed from Mod 1 onward, I left my TR as to gather dust. But with the gutting of the character's build by removal all vestiges of Duelist Flurry from Feats and the excessive Stealth Drain, I'm may just delete wind up deleting the character. The character wasn't built around DF, but it was a part of the build which I loved.
Comments
Can you make the stealth bar larger or at least contrasted in a way that makes it more obvious how much stealth is left? The GWF/GF bars are much easier to see.
Developers, I think you really need to look closely at the class outside of stealth. Play it some without using stealth at all and realize what is at the base of the class. I think this would give some clarity into the concerns of some and allow you to realize why their may be varied feedback (e.g. the perma stealth, gloaming cut, 5x Improved Cunning Sneak, profound saboteur's experience versus the virtually no stealth, duelist flurry, no ICS, swashbuckling captain executioner's experience -- these play like two totally different classes). Other classes outside of their tab can be played reasonably well, with some hardly noticeable. The TR is a totally different animal in that regard.
The tab of the TR has always been strong, and likely the strongest in game and often considered OP by many. Even with (or more likely expressly due to) its power, it has ultimately held the TR back and even led to nerfs. I have no particular problems with a class having a tab make up more of what the class is than for other classes, it just has to be implemented with a more careful hand.
With these changes it seems as if you are trying to address this imbalance with the TR class tab, but when I compare the examples I gave above (the saboteur versus the executioner) it leads me to think you haven't thought carefully enough about what is at the base of the class, i.e. what is a TR outside of stealth.
also I agree with rayrdan feedback.
I also noticed with one with the shadows sometimes you show the normal stealth bar and refill, and sometimes you show that secondary Lurker's version (the black and white version of it if you know what I mean by that).
Casting times need to be shortened!
VP toss and port are slow to cast. DHS was on the slow side of decent. SS took for-freakin-ever (just tossed it, excuse the pun).
All of these, especially the VP toss and port are affecting what should be a fast, hit-and-run style of play. I should be able to tap and dodge, as with dazing strike, but I can't. I have to sit and wait for the wind-up before anything happens. Yes, the animations are cool, but unless I'm in a party, I need to cast and roll 3 seconds ago. Experienced WKs may be used to this, but I am definitely used to faster hits as an MI (akin to SF, WR, Dazing, Deft, etc.)
WK was indeed very fun, but if cast times on some of these dagger-toss powers don't drop, then it's not really going to pick up much more than with a few niche players.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
The new stealth paradigm
Over all I am fine with the new stealth paradigm hiweverbi noticed some issues.
First as Devs seem to want us to move away from stealth I have done all my testing without profound pvp armour or the +20% stealth feat.
The new paradigm encourages use of encounters over dailies but I ran into several problems.
Case 1(saboteur and) lashing blade is up or close to I stealth and roll away. I imediatelty stealth back and often could not get back to the enemy before stealth ran out. Timing had to be perfect and receive no damage
Case 2 (executioner wk) so following the use encounters tactically plan I ran into several issues I didn't notice as sab. After I drop stealth attacking with at wills should not reduce stealth it makes it very hard to time stealth and Lb with its long cooldown.
Example I'm doing a multi spawn HE I just killed second to last NPC with Lb and blitz softening the last npc. I have no stealth SS is up. I SS the last npc to fill my stealth remain unstralthed kill him with my at-will powers.
At this point I should be at full stealth bar with lashing blade commingle off cooldown but killing the npc at my stealth .
Basically I'm fine with at-wills eating stealth when in stealth bit of I have a full stealth bar and I am not stralthing it should remain full.
Over all 5s stealth slow movement speed and long coplsowns with at wills eating stealth out of stealth makes it hard to use stealth tactically
Finally on pve I don't think the burst damage of exexutioner is remotely useful in pve. Most npc I fought that didn't die to lb fell to the following blitz. Additionally Tr are too dependant on manually dodging out of the way the sound that I have no more stamina while chugging potions like koolaid is s sign of imminent death.
Defense speed and the need to mitigate penalties with feats and class features are my biggest gripe. Example tenacious concealment negates a penalty this doesn't create fun it removed anti fun. Why should I have to choose between a bonus (dagger threat ) and negating a penalty . Please examine how and why these penalties are applied or move the means to adjust them out of the class feature attempt.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
DiS isn't meant to be spammed so for me the cast time is adequate. I wouldn't complain if it were sped up a little though.
In fact...
Suggestion:
Now that stealth is a limited and precious resource the cast times of all TR skills should be revisited and in many cases reduced at least while in stealth. Eating up stealth time with slow animations now affects game play.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
That is how I have been testing as well (except when I tested the saboteur to see just how easy perma stealth has now become in it). It is certainly an eye opener to test that way for those who haven't and I suggest they all test in this fashion.
CW: "Where's the Rogue?"
HR: "Dunno..."
CW: "I think I see something weak dying in the corner, I guess the rogue is still with us..."
HR: "Why did we bring a rogue with us?"
Saboteur basically must perma/semi-perma to both stay alive and effective. Overall DPS has risen significantly and they can clear trash mobs much more quickly than before. The current changes make solo play more interesting, but it doesn't bring any utility or enough DPS to be desirable for PVE groups.
Feedback: PVE Scoundrel
CW: "Where's the Rogue?"
HR: "Seeing if he can solo the stuff we already can..."
CW: "Is it working?"
HR: "He seems to think so..."
Scoundrel is very survivable now, it works okay in and out of stealth. Fairly low DPS, but it does bring the potential for daze-locking targets. Overall, it brings very little to the table for group run PVE content. While I applaud certain prominent Whisper Knife Rogues for showcasing that solo PVE is still viable with the WK-Scoundrel build, the dev-stated goal of making rogues more useful in PVE content has not been fully met. This is an MMO and attempting to balance a class by its ability to solo content is counter-productive…
Feedback: PVE Executioner
CW: "Where's the Rogue?"
HR and CW: "Bwahahahahahahaha..."
This is an interesting concept with a terrible execution. The executioner survivability and damage are both tied to excessively limited stealth. Considering how fragile these rogues are, the current DPS increase doesn't even bring this rogue path to an equivalent state as the highly nerfed mod 4 version. This path has virtually no use in PVE groups, because they are far too fragile for their limited spike damage boost.
Feedback: Rogue Changes Overall
Solo play for perma-stealth Saboteurs has been strengthened and is essentially easier to achieve than before. The devs have also given the rogue a new mode for solo play, mainly by strengthening the Whisper Knife + Scoundrel path. They have quite a bit of work ahead to make the rogue changes actually worthwhile in PVE group content. Or they can simplify things tremendously by eliminating or lowering PVE at-will stealth depletion.
At-will depletion of stealth in PVP = GOOD for the game as a whole!
At-will depletion of stealth in PVE = BAD for the class as a whole!
The devs should strongly consider splitting the at-will stealth depletion between PVP and PVE.
Although I'm sure there are avenues the devs can follow to improve the usefulness of rogues in PVE group content, they run the risk of making rogues too strong in PVP content. Stealth is THE rogue ability that requires specialized builds or player skill to counter effectively in PVP. Choosing at-will depletion to be the splitting point between PVP and PVE is probably the best option going forward.
Im inclined to agree with you on everything except the splitting of pvp and pve. Other classes can do the exact same things in both (im looking at OP CW). Screw the other classes if they whinge in pvp after we get our class dps and survivability and aoe fixed up to the levels they should have been. I HATE that my gwf has only 12500 GS 2 artifacts and blues/purples can easily out dps and out tank my 15k TR and does it all in less than half the time. I hate the fact my gwf can also do 70k crits on dragons whilst my TR with all draconic and other niceties can only get a 22k lashing crit IF IM LUCKY.
IT MAKES NO <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> SENSE
Other classes whinge about TR in pvp as it is now, they just dont know how to play their class and dont understand our class. Iv been called a hacker, lame Perma (i dont play perma), or cheat only because iv pushed our weakling class to its limits to perform in pvp. In pve i truly feel useless in any dungeon whilst literally EVERY OTHER CLASS out performs me.
TR is meant to be THE TOP DAMAGE DEALER, thats the role rogues play in every MMO dont let anyone convince you otherwise.
Purely PvE
AoE powers used from stealth apply this debuff to a random target hit. It's very difficult to manage this proc due to buffed Dazing Strike, which is a strong tool to open with. SoD is being applied to a random enemy, sometimes it's the farthest or the weakest one (which will be likely dead right after DS hit). I have 2 suggestions for this matter:
1. Apply SoD to the closest enemy, if the power that activated it is an AoE.
2. Allow SoD to be applied to any number of targets, but split it's damage among them.
I prefer the second option tho.
The dps increase is significant, at-wills depleting stealth did not hurt this path. All you need to do is use stealth for your encounter power and spam DF with the first tier feat from saboteur for more damage while stealth bar is not full. Survival is lacking yes, but its not any worse than it already is. Just let the GWF/GF run ahead first, rogue is not meant to be the rush in and smash them type.
Duh. You are using draconic that has almost no power. Try getting either swashbuckler 4 set or 2 piece dread 2 piece fabled / master assassins set for the bonus power. I have 11k power, 2500 armor pen and hit 40k regular hits and up to 200k crits with buffs/debuffs from GF/DC with lashing blade.
I have been far too busy to clean the feedback threads. I finally set some time aside and rogues got the scrubbing first.
Please remember the threads exist for YOU to provide feedback to the devs. Not to debate ideas with other people. Please do not debate your views with other people and please leave the theorycrafgting out of this thread. This thread is only for feedback directed at the developers.
I left a lot of the debates and theorycrafting but this stuff will not be permitted in the thread from this point forward.
As always if you have any concerns about certain posts being removed from the thread I will review it on a case by case basis if you send me a personal message.
Thanks!
The damage it does is really good and i like the idea of it to use stealth to force the T5 Feat to activate as often as possible. But it has a big Problem: stealth regeneration.
I must use [Shadow Strike] to regenerate my stealth. Because of my cooldown i only can use it every 15 seconds and it feels odd to use one of my three precious encounter slots. In the current situation i am a bit "meh".
On one hand it's okay for me, because it's the way how i can play a good DPS machine, on the other hand i sacrifice my flexibility. On a gamedesign decision i can understand it. But to speak it out loud, if i sacrifice an encounter slot i still want more damage in PvE. At least 25% more then in the current situation because the difference in damage between saboteur and executioneer is not big enough to justify it in my opinion. The damage gap is there (~10K Sab VS ~17K Exe) but not big enough in my opinion to sacrifice the ability to be undetectable by monsters. Overall there is a problem about the survivability and the handling of this feat tree. I mean, if i get attacked or stand in an void i only can dodge, okay we have more dodges but the problem is, if i dodge i dropp my DPS and [Impossible To Catch] is nerfed which means i can't use it as "damage sponge" anymore.
Another solution would be to give us a feat in the executioneer path that says: By every critical hit you gain x% stealth. It would mean: i am out of stealth, i deal my DF get stealth back because of the feat, go in stealth, attack instantly with encounter, get T5-Feat-BUFF, deal DF get stealth back *repeat*.
It must not be 1 DF that gives me all my stealth back it could be 2-3 DF which means i have a good chance to get in stealth in like 10-15 secs from alone and if i am a good player and can handle the "sacrifice" of one of my encounter for shadow strike for additional DPS i would be really lucky.
Here a small video of the Executioneer in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UzI0qQ2KM&feature=youtu.be
1. Make "Tenacious concealment" work for that 15% drain as well
it seems redundant as a passive as it right now on preview and it
certainly would justify the name of it.Plus it would give some flavor to the amount of TR out there as it gives additional options to many different builds, BOTH IN PVP AND PVE.
2. I m also the supporter of making stealth bar bigger
3. Please fix all bugs on preview as it is and be sure to somehow let us know i.e. fix bonus damage from combat advantage due to CHA
4. Give TR a 'resistance ignore' ability score (OR justify why it hasn't got one)
5. As a DnD player for almost a decade now i should remind you that INT is a very important score for a DnD rogue cause thats where they get their feats.You might be able to work something there in order to make up from a possible underperforming of the class
6. Give incentive to more players to enter the preview i.e. possibly a chance to earn a rare or epic account bound mount every day, its not more than 40 mounts or something else , i dont really know what. In any case ITS NOT JUST SOME MODIFICATION, ITS A WHOLE CLASS REWORK, we need more players, and not just TR's to test more and different scenarios
7. You could give a bonus to the deflection severity of this class, many problems of attacking/defending outside of stealth could be solved
8. Concerning Perma's: I know you might not believe it , but it doesn't take much skill to counter one as it is right now
9. This one is NOT a TR feedback but a general observation : Rework bonus HP items give you , or give them a CON bonus. When a class is designed to have 20k HP (we are talking for 10 CON) and can make it up to 44k HP it means that it plays with 70 CON , cant u see that many of the game's issues are born from that thing ?
I think TR still needs more defenses when outside stealth, currently it's too dependant on it to survive, and now stealth being shorter than ever it also adds a lot of difficulty to survival.
Scoundrel helps a lot with the dazes, but that's one of the 3 aviable trees, TR needs a way to defend homself outside stealth for all trees, and both MI and WK.
Other classes are not so dependant of their tab skill to survive.
I suggested this earlier a feat that increases how. Much dex affects aoe damage resist. Or even higher deflect vs aoe.
Agreed. Shorter cast times and faster stealth/stamina recharges would come in handy. WK doesn't need an ITC-like power per se as they should be dodging more effectively, but a feat that helps improve dodge rolls in general wouldn't go amiss.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
* Stealth loss/failure to generate during onslaught of attacks makes escape almost impossible. With no considerable defense/deflection and a low HP count this is a critical oversight. You can only roll out of combat so many times and unfortunately you never quite get far enough away - you can easily say stack hp, defense and deflect but you lose dps which is already too low, stacking these would only mean the dps stats of this class would be the same as they are now.
* Dazing strike only hits 1 target out of stealth, which is fine if you can regenerate stealth during combat (which you cant) which renders it fairly useless.
The extra DPS is long overdue and a welcome improvement but the losses to the class are grievous.
I don't often play PVP but how can we expect to play a role in PVP content against mindless control wizard onslaught when our encounter powers (in particular ITC) are locked while being controlled meanwhile the over powered control wizard can unleash I tirade of 3 or 4 encounters without any possibility to escape, consequently spelling inevitable death
These changes are entirely too focused on PVP with not enough done. More consideration needs to be done to extend the abilities and role of a TR in PVE.
We should be the highest 1v1 dps based class in the game, but not solely limited to 1v1 combat all the time.
In my opinion far too much DPS has been given to the control wizard, hunter ranger and scourge warlock classes. I could only wish my TR had anywhere near the same DPS as a hunter ranger using his blades.
We have no range, no ability to take on or control adds (other than smoke bomb) where are the concerns surrounding this?
I feel like our class has been repeatedly overlooked and now that we are finally getting noticed, you don't seem to want to provide us with the basic PVE skills we require to be efficient in the game.
I second this, I have the same demotivation on playing TR on live...
Currently, on live, I'm a MI semi-permastealth Executioner, I'm focused on PvE but I still can get fun in PvP too
and I feel that the only way to continue playing TR with the upcoming changes, if I want to get a decent survivability, is going MI Saboteur or a Saboteur-Executioner hybrid...
but that would force me into a playstyle that I find very boring, using GC more than I'd Like
and would also force me to chose feats that helps recovering stealth over feats that would increase my dps
(as if I shouldn't worry about Ap gain and Stamina regeneration for that matter)
plus, DF and ITC were the center of my build but now they are useless powers
I already suggested leaving stealth mechanic, ITC and "Dazing Blades" feat as they were, for the PvE part of the game
but I'd like to make other suggestions that, even if less preferable, could work well, and maybe follow on the path of changes you are making
At wills can be used while moving and don't root the player on place
( maybe, if 0 root-time is too much, they could root the player on place for a fifth or a quarter of the time they do now )
Duelist Flurry, on the third animation, lets you move around the target
I'd like to see in the rogue, the same mobility that Xuna has on the cinematic trailer, jumping from mob to mob
( deft strike's cooldown is too higher to allow such mobility )
when hitting in combat advantage I'd like seeing the rogue place some debuff on mobs, allowing team members to deal more damage ( Damage Resistance debuff is somehow useless, since most pve players have armor penetration capped in order to ignore 24% of DR... and in this aspect, Wicked Reminder isn't much of help as a debuffing power )
i mean... if a rogue hits a mob from behind, crippling it, it should put some nice debuff on him
it could be that after placing that debuff, more damage from the rogue and from the team members, makes him bleed more... or reduce the monster's power/damage/recovery
I also have another suggestion, maybe a little OT since it involves a change in the way pve content works, but i'd like to share it
Deft Strike lets you teleport to a friendly target when used from stealth, when this target is in 80' range
this could be used to implement some kind of puzzle content in pve... like shortcuts in dungeons... and this would make TR really useful in a team, and in a different way from raw dps support
I'd like to see more creative ways to proceed rather than hack n slash enemies with huge hp pools
This would seem to be the case, however. Since at-wills drain stealth and do not break it, doesn't it seem like some at-will usage is intended during stealth? With DHS you can actually hit 2 or so opponents with it and still have time for one encounter, which 2 DHS from stealth adds up to no small amount of damage. With Sly flourish you can also pop a few hits on something and then use an encounter.
The two at-wills where the stealth drain is most crippling is cloud of steel and duelist flurry. Cloud of steel builds damage per consecutive hit. Since you'll lose your stealth long before you get to the end of a full 8 dagger chuck, Your losing far more damage than you would from sly flourish, since every hit from sly does the same damage.
On duelist flurry, the flurry phase of this power consists of many hits, and it locks on for the full cascade of blows. Your committed through the entire attack. This means you can't save some stealth for an encounter, and with how many "at-will usage" and how fast and unpredictable the stealth drain comes, your stealth just evaporates. Furthermore, a large percentage of flurry damage comes from the bleed portion of the power, which if flurry is used from stealth you will almost never get auto-crit or gear related stealth damage and combat advantage of DF bleed. This adds up to a tremendous loss of damage for flurry compared to other at-wills from stealth, less even than on live where you can at least get stealth bonuses.
The stealth drain comes across as a very targeted nerf to both duelist flurry and cloud of steel. This will be the second nerf to hit cloud of steel. However, in regards to duelist flurry, this will be the 8th consecutive nerf of this power, including many direct nerfs, nerfs to feats related to flurry, including the complete removal of deadly momentum, nerfs to other factors which affect flurry more than any other power, such as the aforementioned stealth drain. None of these nerfs have been in any way slight. The end result is the nigh complete destruction of the power to virtual uselessness in almost any situation. The only situation I have found room for flurry as a useable power is via the scoundrel path where the heavy CC allows for such long, risky power outside of stealth.
I find it as no coincidence that COS and flurry are the most heavily targeted powers in the stealth drain implementation as they are the most commonly used powers in perma-stealth PVP builds. However, I find it unjustified that these changes roll-over to affect PVE to such a large degree, mostly in the case of flurry. Either readjust stealth drain to take into account the many, low-damage hits of COS and flurry. Or make both of these powers vastly more useable outside of stealth.
I also feel that triple buffing gloaming cut, while leaving it exempt from stealth drain was a mistake. This power received auto-crit, stealth related feat buffs, and a increase to health missing damage. Furthermore, it retained it's feat specific stealth gain-sneaky stabber. Many people are saying this power is slow, or easy to counter. Something that might not be immediately obvious is that this power is not often used, and very often underestimated. I have played for over a year with this power living on my hotbar next to duelist flurry. I have very rarely seen people use GC or use it to it's maximum potential. Considering that I have used this power to great effect in pvp, I would not consider it to be weak on live. Now, does this mean that I am a gifted genius with gloaming cut, or does this mean that not many people have learned to use this power because they never needed to before. I would guess the latter, and I would not expect that to last. Once people do master gloaming cut, and I'm guessing it's not going to take very long becuase the learning curve is not nearly as steep as flurry, everyone is going to be wishing for the old flurry using perma's back. I would highly recomend not leaving it exempt from stealth drain, while leaving sneaky stabber intact, essentially GC would drain 5% of stealth per use, I feel that would be fair.
Feedback: Saboteur
The design is nice but if find the following unpleasant.
T1
Shady Preperations: Entering Stealth reduces all your cooldowns by 2/4/6/8/10%. - I find this useless.
T2
Knife's Edge: Activating a Daily reduces all of your cooldowns by 3/6/9/12/15%. -another useless feat.
T3
Return to Shadows: While behind your target, dealing damage with Encounter Powers refills 10/20/30/40/50% of your Stealth Meter. This effect cannot trigger when leaving stealth. - I used Deft Strike and it didnt refill my meter.
T4
Ambusher's Haste: While Stealthed you gain a damage bonus of 5/10/15/20/25%. This bonus dimishes as your stealth meter drains out. -with the new stealth mechanics this is useless (who will use a encounter when the stealth bar is full?)
T5
One with the Shadows: Every 20 seconds you gain "One with the Shadows". While you are affected by "One with the Shadows" the next time you deal damage with an Encounter Power you instantly refill your Stealth Meter and gain a 20% damage buff to Stealth Encounter Powers for 10 seconds. -wasted when proc by shadow strike.
Feedback: Scoundrel
The rework is nice but there are some redundant feats so it feels like I'm putting 10 points just to get one benefit.
Feedback: Executioner
Something still missing I used it for 2 hours and it does not live up to its name. Worst of the three paths.
Feedback:Stealth
Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack.
Stealth: Now also grants 100% Critical Chance in addition to Combat Advantage.
That 15% drain is too much to bear TR At-wills are all multi-hit(except GC). I would like to remind you guys that stealth is depleted by damage taken already so that means another load is pilled in our burden. If you will implement that 15% well at least tone it down to a reasonable percentage because in order to maintain stealth we need to run out of fights and bound ourselves to Tenacious Concealment and Shadow Strike so that means one less encounter and passive for us. I think that at-damage taken depletion on our meter should go because it is unnecessary (think of a TAB that is useless the entire fight).
Bug: Disciple of Strength
not working
So, I played WK Scoundrel today and all i have to say is.. wow.. I honestly think this path is the closest one to being completely game ready. Here is my set up
15kgs, Whisperknife Scoundrel primary, saboteur secondary. Sly Flurish and Disheartening strike for at wills. Hatefulknives and Whirlwind of blades as my Dailies.
for my Class features my first set up was razor action, and advantageous position
for encounters intial setup was Dazling strike, smoke bomb ss
This setup worked okay, and was the first of any Build i have done during this test able to take out an HE that had Elite NPC opponents. However, i struggled with large amounts and stillw as constantly bouncing around. Some of this might be mittigated when the accidentally dazing myself bugs are fixed.
However, it was my second setup that really shone
class features initially First strike and advantageous position
encounters, path of he blade, blitz shadow strike.
So, this set up was an Aoe machine, constantly laying down damage, it didnt matter if i was bouncing arund because i was either a/blitz b/path of the blde c/ reseting up with shadow strike my Ap gainw as solid and between cooldown reduction for re-entering stealth and for using a daily i had no problem cycling any of my powers.
The first big HE i did was the assembly listed for 1-5 players, this showed the survivability and possibly some of the weaknesses. The first time i attempted to do this, i realized i had forgotten to buy potions, in fact the only potons on me were lvl 20? healing potions from a lockbox. But i successfully did the dance for a very very long time.
of note here, looking my character ove rmy base lifesteal stat is only 400, i do have 1100 regeneraton and the melee enchantment that does lifesteal.
So as I said though this showed all the positive aspects over my character and possibly some of the negative ones. When fightig lvl 60 or 61 npc I had no real issues, It was only when i got down to the lvl 62 NPC that things slowed to a crawl basically it took forever to kill them. Eventually i did Die in my first attempt, but as i mentioned i was using lvl 20 healing pots.
So i bught proper potions, went back in and switched Tactition in for first strike, it seems pretty solid.
Of the three paths i have tested, this is the one that i was able to get the most success from accomplishing game goals as a 15k Gs player. That said i found the first two feats of the path not very exciting and the constant fealing that a CW or HR of my Gs wouldnt struggle for any of the encountrs i was struggling with.
I'll also note that, as a Single target DPS as our primary role, in ever case for all three paths i played trying to be a single target dps charcter got me killed. the final Scoundrel build was basically Aoe control.
I plan to test Executioner again using the Two cooldown reduction feats from saboteur, but will get to that later. At the end of the day though the Tr is constantly moving i rarely if ever get to just target an NPC and wack at it with my at wills, because if any of them hit me Im dead. the Deflection feats from scoundrel did not do alot because in order to make use of them i would have to switch to purified ice gear and massively nerf my damage.
1. Stealth
Restealthing is an issue. Currently, my test builds have no problems at all in clearing any PvE content with reasonably satisfactory results -- but it always requires Shadow Strike to gain the proper initiative
IMO, "stealth refills with at-wills" are out of the question. So is "ignores attacks and auto-refill at same rate"s. Be it PvE or PvP, there needs to be a certain amount of demerit to being visible.
There also must be a way for the opponent -- again, be it PvE or PvP -- to keep pressure on the TR makes a mistake and comes out of stealth at the wrong timing.
Comparisons to other classes [TAB] functions are misleading and inelevant: the only thing that matters is if this function does the job for the class, and if its reasonably balanced for other classes or mobs that face it
Above things considered; the following would be necessary IMO:
List of Necessary Changes for stealth
■ Base stealth duration itself is increased by +2s to 8s
■ Feat: Improved Cunning Sneak value is increased to 8/12/16/20/25%
■ Skulker/Profound armor set stealth increase value lowered
※ This is necessary, because IMO, the current default stealth duration was set by the devs with the old system in mind, with constant and easy stealth refills, and sufficient number of at-wills attacks made during the base 6 second duration. Currently, without using the Profound sets, advanced gear like BIs or above only provide time enough for maybe 2~3 CoS throws and then the stealth is out. Even when no attacks are used, 6s is woefully low to be worthy of maneuvering or repositioning. This change seeks to increase the base stealth duration for all TRs to around 10s, with possible slight buffs from Skulker/Profound sets extending it to around 12~13 secs.
■ At-will attacks deplete stealth at lower value (my proposition is 10%)
※ 15% is a bit overly punishing.
■ Feat:Twilight Adept value increased to 3/6/9/12/15% of the stealth meter
■ Stealth meter no longer "halts" regeneration for a long time, when receiving an attack.
■ Stealth meter no longer "depletes" on received attack. it will only slow it down for the moment.
■ Attacks received while stealth meter recharges, will slow it down by 50%
■ Feat: Tenacious Concealment changed to a direct defensive feat -- 2/4/6% more deflect severity
※ These changes are crucial in that it offers a certain demerit when the TR is out of stealth, but not at the current punitive levels where it becomes effectively impossible to restealth without SS. The current problem has two parts:
(1) The long halt: Upon receiving damage, meter stops regenerating even when attack stops
(2) The depletion: upon receiving damage, meter actively depletes
In PvE, there are often multiple incoming mob-attacks. In PvP, a player attacks much faster and often than a mob. DoTs can also be applied. Both results are the same. Without SS a TR cannot restealth.
IMO:
(1) needs to be abandoned
(2) needs to be changed
10s worth of stealth meter should always take 10s to refill. Every attack received while meter is refilling, will not hack away the meter, but slow it down by 50%, so if constantly under attack, 10s worth of stealth will take 15s to recharge. This is actually around similar timing to SS -- 16s default recharge, 11~13s with high recharge builds. The increase in value of the stealth refilling feat:Twilight Adept will synergize much better once stealth meter cannot be actively depleted by enemy action.
2. Saboteuer
...is in a good place right now
3. Scoundrel
■ Roll with the Punches value increased by 1/2/3/4/5% more deflect chance
■ Bloody Brawler function changed and renamed to support a 10% further stamina increase rate and 9/12/15/18/20% lower stamina cost for dodges
■ Survivor threshold upped from 30% to 50%
■ Savage Blows function changed and renamed to support a 3/6/9/12/15% stamina bar refull on successful dodge
■ Skull Cracker movement speed changed to 40% increase
※ Scoundrel is currently at a good place with the dazes. That's one-half of the core function fulfilled. However the other half -- the brawling-survival related feats, are largely redundant and not working well.
The life-steal feats seems to suggest the devs have sort-of envisioned a pseudo-HR-ish, life-steal dependant defense, but the HRs survival and tankiness is not only OP as it is(IMO), but also depends on a variety of different defensive mechanics working together at the same time.
IMO, what we want to do, is simply accept the result of being damaged. A damage is a damage, and that shouldn't be so simplified nullifed by instantly replenishment of life through regen and LS (...and DR class features ...and auto-dodge buffs ...and Wilds Medicine ...and... etc etc..) -- the main complaints and frustrations while fighting a HR comes from the fact that all your efforts are simply nullified over a short time. No matter how well you've managed the game and initially hurt the HR more, once you lose the initiative all your results are just nullified, and its as if the fight is starting anew, with the HR with fresh pool of HP, but you remaining damaged. This is why people see it as OP, and I agree with it. A well managed game where you've hurt your opponent badly, should be an advantage good enough to press, or rememdy your own mistake -- not have it simply made null.
That's why I don't want the same regen/LS/deflect-HP mechanic with the TR. It's OP. I don't want it. Instead, IMO a TR's defense is reached through dodges, and it is also at the heart of its mobility. Any changes that seek to increase the survivability of the TR must come through dodge.
Hence, a deflect-based mechanic that synergizes with dodge/stamina IMO makes sense. The damage you receive is still there. No bullshi* infinitie life refills. However with more deflects, more dodges. If changes go into this direction, all TRs will have either a 5% higher deflect, or a 10% higher stamina regen with 20% reduction in dodge cost as an extra T1 feat to choose if they wish it.
Current dodge cost is 50 in Live -- two dodges. Preview is supposed to reduce that to 33 for 3 dodges, but its not working properly. With the changed T1 feat, the 33 cost will go down to 24.75 (20% reduction) -- giving an extra dodge for a total of 4. With the increased stamina regen, by the time you do 4 straight dodges the stamina will have refilled for an extra 5th. So that's a dodge mechanic on par with the HRs. Not as fast and responsive, but at least the TRs can match the numbers.
Further investment into Scoundrel will allow a 10% stamina refill on deflection. So the more attacks you deflect, the more stamina you get back, the more dodges you can make -- an acrobatic defense as a TR seems natural. It also synergizes with the Feat:Twilight Adept and the stealth changes. The more successful deflects you make, the more you will be dodging around, and the quicker your stealth meter will recharge -- perhaps, good enough to fight even without SS.
The Skull Cracker increase in movement speed is a good start, but some classes are still way too fast while dazed, even with that 25% increase. I would suggest a 40% increase -- a surge of movement speed during that 5~6 second time when you gain the initiative through Skull Cracker.
4. Executioner
■ Class feature: First Strike now resets after 6 seconds of non-combat action, regardless of combat status. It also has a visible queue to show that it is in works
■ Vicious Pursuit should add a slight slow -- 15% speed reduction -- during the duration
■ Exposed Weakness is a bit redundant, and should be changed to feat that increases damage of at-wills -- maybe something like, "for 6s after coming out of stealth, the damage of all at-wills are increased by the value of the crit stat"
■ Shadow of Demise should once again apply to all targets hit by the encounter proccing it
※ Executioners have a big one-shot attack. Except that only works when there are actually targets that can be one-shotted... and in PvE, anything harder than 1~2 man content with elite grade mobs no single Lashing Blade, however powerful it is, will ever one-shot a mob. The problem begins when you hit one big attack, but to the mob that receives that deals only like 10~15% damage. Now you're out of stealth, have 3~4 of those on you, how is the Executioner going to fight?
While not Executioner related, it is true First Strike is often most used by Executioner builds. Having a visual queue as to its activeness, as well as forced reset regardless of combat status should help them. Particularly if the Executioners try make use of AoEs for stealthed-first strike material, that now correctly proc SoD on all targets, combined with forced resetting after 6 seconds of non-combat action (no DoTs dealt or received, no artifacts or debuffs on hostile target, etc..) that should considerably help them in PvE as well as PvP.
Also, another problem the Executioners face, is that not only they are devoid of any functional defense, but they are quite poor in terms of sustained damage. When they fail to finish off the targets with initial attacks, they are out of stealth, and they must have something to press that first strike advantage -- so IMO the motto of the Executioner would probably be "kill before be killed.
An at-will damage increase in direct correlation with crit stat, so if someone has a 30% crit chance that value will directly transfer to all at-wills with 30% damage increase, after leaving stealth for 6 seconds, should be at least good enough to superbly empower any at-will so it becomes almost as powerful as an encounter, for 6 seconds.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I agree with this. When constantly taking damage, whether soloing or from aoe in group play, the only way to refill our stealth meter is to use shadowstrike. I think this is unfair and needs to be changed. I would like to see a constant refill regardless of if we take damage so we can reliably be able to restealth and use our encounters from stealth without having to shadowstrike. Currently it is not worth using more than one damaging encounter because you only have shadowstrike to refill, so I use ITC even when I know I don't really need it.
I have to agree witht all of the Duelist Flurry comments in this post. Removal of the Deadly Momentum has gutted the build I was using for my TR. But I'd like to talk a specifically about the implementation of Stealth Dragin in Duelist Flurry. I don't understand exactly how the Stealth Drain is inmplmentated in the Power engine. But I seems to be part put in as part of the "damage" effects of the power. This I believe guts Duelist's Flurry use during Stealth too severely. As all other have said the Stealth meter is exhausted before completing a full cycle of Flurry.
The monkey wrench is the drain per hit during the flurry phase of the cycle. Draining so much Stealth plus the natural reduction of Stealth and the TR is locked during this phase of the attack is the sin. Duelist Flurry's implementation of Stealth Drain should be 1 tick of drain at the initiation of each attack of the cycle. If this implementation in variation of this Duelist Flurry is going to be retired and replaced by plain and boring Sly Flourish on my power bar
Edit:
And on speaking of motivation for the devs, the TR was the character class that I feel in love with during the beta of Neverwinter. It was the class I decided on rolling of my first character when the game soft launched. I splurged on the character as it was my main. But all of the changed from Mod 1 onward, I left my TR as to gather dust. But with the gutting of the character's build by removal all vestiges of Duelist Flurry from Feats and the excessive Stealth Drain, I'm may just delete wind up deleting the character. The character wasn't built around DF, but it was a part of the build which I loved.