We really need to have a discussion thread for this thread. 90% of this thread is not feedback on the actual changes, but rather some people arguing endlessly with other people. It's not helpful for me to see what is being discussed and tried when I have to sift through three pages of debate for actual play experience and not theorycrafting or discussion over who's playing wrong or how someone doesn't like the way another player does things. I can't imagine it's helpful for the devs either.
I'll be honest. I've stopped reading this thread and only come in when I've had a chance to do testing on preview, because the arguing and debate makes it useless and tedious to go through. I've even reported posts in it because the arguing became extreme.
I came in to see if anyone had anything new, got through four pages working backwards from the most recent, and the first post I saw was someone telling someone else to chill out, and then the rest was, yeah, mostly arguments.
I'm disappointed in us.
So, some feedback on the feedback to the feedback:
- Not everyone is an elite player who's been playing since closed beta and has a 20k GS and five legendary artifacts. This is good, because the experiences of people who've been playing that long and have all that gear are distorted. I've been playing since Beta Weekend 3, but life, homelessness, illness, and the like have caused me to miss months worth of time, to where my main character created day 1 is only just now hitting 360 ardent coins. I've only got a 16.1k GS. And I recognize that my perspective is still distorted, because I have been playing so long, and I have reached a decent level of gearing.
- Not everyone is going to be a perfect player. People may suffer from latency due to bad internet, and while you can adapt to consistent latency, some people(including me) will not only have bad ping, they'll spike all over the map or waver between two high ranges. So people can have that. People can have eye-hand coordination issues, mobility issues, be new at the game, etc. Someone with consistent 30ms ping and no physical issues is going to do a lot better than someone spiking everywhere and having slow fingers. This is inarguable.
So, the thing is, the game needs to be playable for everyone. If the TR is only usable to any decent effect in PvE by a top-tier player, the TR is not where it needs to be. Johnny Q. Random does indeed need to learn how to play, but even a build that isn't perfect needs to at least be usable, and playable without perfect reflexes and timing.
The average queue group I get when I PUG skirmishes or even dungeons is generally 11-14k GS with the odd slumming 16-18k. It is made of people who haven't been told that Ice Storm is terrible in groups, that Sly Flourish is a bad at-will, that Knight's Valor is good, etc. They do not have a Perfect Vorpal like I do. They're wearing Rank 5 enchants, if that. They have blue and even green artifacts. They have mod 3 appearances and haven't been playing that long. If a class isn't useful and enjoyable until you hit a very high level of skill and gearing, how many of the newer casual players do you think are going to actually stick to it?
So yes, we need the newer players testing this, and we NEED their feedback.
This is not the time for elitism and 'Your playstayle is wrong'. If DF started and then stealthed in into a Lashing Blade or Wicked Reminder is an effective tactic in Mod 4 and earlier, then it was a good playstyle whether you personally liked it or not and people not finding an equivalent they like in the changes is fine, and important feedback.
If Johnny Q. Random makes a TR and finds he can't contribute in dungeons unless he's overgeared and using exactly the right rotation exactly the right way, he's not going to keep playing his TR when everyone tells him to go make a CW instead. He's going to go make that CW, or he's just going to quit because he doesn't want to play a CW, he wants to play his cool-looking TR he enjoys.
These people are the ones who are eventually going to become the game's top TRs... If we let them. If we don't drive them away telling them they don't know anything and can't contribute and can't possibly understand. If a newer, less geared player is having problems, maybe it's not just him. Maybe it's the class. That needs to be listened to, and looked at. By the devs, not us, because yelling someone down or telling them they're doing it wrong because you don't like their opinion or what they find enjoyable helps absolutely no one.
Having logeed into the preview to test the TR - must say very disappointed to find that my build along the Executioner tree has been removed all together. The Paragon path feat to support my main at-will (Duelist's Flurry) is no longer included. To top it off, it has taken me many dedicated hours to earn all components to get the right artifact weapon to support this at-will (Horn of the Golden Dragon), not to mention all of the hard earned currency and time to level it up.
I find it very hard to believe that you have had so many OP complaints regarding this at-will with the complimenting artifact weapon that you chose to remove it from the feat tree. Artifact weapons are very new. No free respec can replace the time and dedication taken to build this TR, which is much more difficult to play correctly than my GWF - something that is more rewarding when it all comes together.
It would seem that non perma stealth TR's (like mine and other friends) are getting hit very hard too and would like you to reconsider removal of Duelist's Flurry from the Executioner Paragon path.
Also, combat rolls and stealth bar reduction show no buff in preview, no observable increase in Disheartening Strike buff either - though these new changes would seem to have dealt a very commited player the biggest disheartening strike of all.
The tree not my kind. The hop in stealth for a sec, encounter restealth, encounter etc is meh ... too annoying. The stealth mechanic died for me, its like a First Strike passive without a skill slot. I guess most of the new rouges wont really use it
Feedback Scoundrel:
Still like it. Tho the only reason for this tree is the "random" daze. Life steal and deflect bonus from feats still too low. Didnt even noticed it when changed to Executioner.
Should have a longer time duration smoke bomb option on 1 of its daze feats
The damage is ok (as its a tank build), but need a little more deflect/life steal bonus(as its a tank build)
Feedback Executioner:
The concept is good as i said before.
Feedback Whisperknife:
Still have lower dps than MI. Should have more CoS (12 was before ?) and a little higher bonus from Dagger Threat
Retested WK Scoudrel with a 10pt dip into Exe for Arterial Cut and Vengeful Pursuit. Also watched my rotations more closely. Got a noticeable increase to DPS which helped make combat smoother. Did the Drake Pen lair and a few of the minor HEs in WoD with little trouble and had a bunch of fun. Tried the Cult Patrol minor HE and got annihilated. The Drake Rider is too tough to take down fast as Scoundrel and that gives too much time for the reinforcements to show up. Without easy access to stealth I got mobbed and died hard. That was the only time I really felt a lack of survivability options though.
stealth continue to feel luckster and without any tools to naturally refill it i dont even feel the need to use it.
When in stealth i have basically two option:
throw 3 arlt will hitting for 10k
Or
Using an encounter
After this bye stealth virtually forever if i keep in combat.
In the best scenario stealth uptime is less than 5 per cent leading tree like executioner to basically play with no feats (they pretty much work in stealth)
This is not just an executioner problem.
All the path required pretty much to slot shadow strike losing one encounter slot.
Stealth as now is just a crappy tab.
If at will drains it why they cant refill it out of stealth????
The overall best path is saboteur. It has nothing wrong but shadow strike proccing one with the shadows which is an utterly no sense.
Scoundrel feels fun but needs way more deflect and way more life steal.
That feat around 10 deflect under 30 per cent HP makes no sense at all: as a TR you either survive or get 1shotted.
Over all what i hate is that stealth is less than a side disc in TR dinner. A side disc that you only consume once every meal without slotting shadow strike. I would like to see gwf using shadow-unstoppable or their unstoppable bar depleting upon taking damage and dealing damage. Would be fair right?
I cant say the job isnt good but something is stealth need to be revised.
Base time prolonged, bar steady refilling upon dealing damage.
Retested WK Scoudrel with a 10pt dip into Exe for Arterial Cut and Vengeful Pursuit. Also watched my rotations more closely. Got a noticeable increase to DPS which helped make combat smoother. Did the Drake Pen lair and a few of the minor HEs in WoD with little trouble and had a bunch of fun. Tried the Cult Patrol minor HE and got annihilated. The Drake Rider is too tough to take down fast as Scoundrel and that gives too much time for the reinforcements to show up. Without easy access to stealth I got mobbed and died hard. That was the only time I really felt a lack of survivability options though.
Overall I think Scoundrel is just about there.
That's the build I'm currently running. My only complaint with it is soloing some of the lair bosses (Jail warden in particular). Scoundrel/Scoundrel hybrid can keep up with mobs and multiple HDs' worth of creatures, but when adds spawn mid-fight, disrupting your stun rotation, then you're toast. (usually only a problem when trying to burn a 9+HD boss or mini-boss. scoundrel needs to clear and drop, not stay soloing)
Ok. Again, disclosing hard-learned stuff for the sake of the community. My recommendation for those who have trouble with surviving and fighting with Scoundrel, particularly with a melee/MI build, try this setup out.
■ stealth about to run out → Dazing Strike (wide arc) → PotB
I can already hear some of you thinking to yourselves, "Is this it? Just using DS with the pathetic damage PotB, this is supposed to give us great results?"... and I will say on to you who might think so, "yeah, it does".
When you think about it, it is incredibly simple in theory.
(1) You use the wide-arc stealth-Dazing Strike to hit as many mobs as you can with one hit
(2) All of the mobs hit are afflicted with Skull Cracker
(3) Among those mobs, three of them will be hit with PotB attacks, and the daze duration is extended by +2s
In other words, so long as you have Skull Cracker ready, at any given time three of the mobs are totally neutralized as you leave out of stealth. Most mob groups are what... 4? 5 at most?
It is at this moment that I've learned that despite the nerf PotB is extremely useful.. and in some sense the 3-target activation is a buff that greatly outweighs the decrease in damage -- at least for Scoundrels it is.
PotB is a power -- due to its auto-attack and passive nature -- that does not proc anything. It doesn't proc Skull Cracker, doesn't proc One With the Shadows, doesn't proc Return to Shadows... nothing. But it is still an attack, therefore a target hit with PotB receives the same [+0.5s daze duration increase per attack] as any other attack.
And once that happens, PotB attacks then benefit from:
(1) 25% damage increase from Low Blows
(2) another 25% damage increase from Skull Cracker
If the old PotB was "100" in damage, the new PotB is "33", Skull Cracker+Lowblows applied it is "49.5".
Now, why is this important? Why does something that seems so simple make that much of a difference? Because the main component of damage when I use a WK/Scoundrel against 3~4 "hard/strong" HE level mobs, is Disheartening Strike. The application of this strong DoT power, combined with all-ranged tactics, gives me enough time to constantly and steadily deal damage against such strong targets while I'm also concentrating on self-defense.
Why do some people seem unable to get good results with Scoundrel? These are the reasons:
When people try the Scoundrel, they usually try it with melee-oriented MI paragon builds
When they choose powers, they don't really test different combinations out. They just instinctively choose damage over utility, and as a result miss out on a lot of possibilities just waiting for to be discovered
MIs don't have a powerful DoT attack like the WK, which constantly deals damage against multiple targets
This means, in order to deal damage, they can only attack one at a time. No matter how powerful at-wills like GC is, it is always against only one target at a given time.
This also means that when dealing damage they are forced in a situation where they cannot take any defensive action
If they take defensive action, they have no damage going in while they are busy moving around and dodging
...you get the picture.
When you come to face POWERFUL mob groups like the strong-grade Wight types or etc etc.. in IWD, and 3~5 of them at a given time, what happens with melee/MI Scoundrels is that they can't one-shot the POWERFUL mobs no matter how strong their melee attack is, and since those mobs have very strong damage you can't stay at one place free-dealing. The more you move around the less damage you do, and every time your SS is in cooldown you just feel like a walking punch-bag. If you switch around to all-defensive encounters like Smokebomb or BnS for more stealth, then you lose even more damage.
This is the problem the players who complain about the Scoundrel faces.
The only way for a Scoundrel to rememdy a situation like this is by using the weapons he's got to its max potential. I come across a few Scoundrels in the preview from time to time and I still observe many cases where those players just do not know how the Skull Cracker mechanic works, blows away 2 precious seconds of extra daze, does not know how to plant Concussive Strikes for extra damage from Low Blows, etc etc... and this is one of the reasons I was frustrated in the other post. Not many people really know how the Scoundrel mechanics work. No, I mean really.
As soon as my vids are uploaded to Youtube, I will post links of how I fight with a melee/MI Scoundrel in PvE... and no, I'm not 20k GS. I've recently reached 17k GS, have under 5k power, my HP does not exceed 40k, and I don't have one of those endless-healing Black Ice gear, and in almost all of the vids I've not once used a healing potion.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
New "TR Scoundrel Survivor Class"
*2.5% more Deflect Chance; 2.5% more Lifesteal; When your HP is below 30% you gain 10% increased deflect chance; You gain 10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth,...*
Unsure if this new tanky TR class can be good as it sounds, because:
1. Poor stealth bar is weaker (what to deflect now in stealth when it will burn in 2 seconds?)
2. ITC skill is ruined
3. Only 2.5% Lifesteal versus "Executioner TR" or Warlock in PVP? Or against new spawned creatures in the middle of the fight? - It's better to have "When your HP is below 50% you gain 14% increased deflect chance, and your lifesteal rise for 2%"
- Instead to make "You gain 10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth" cryptic should make passive feat:"You gain 5% deflect chance and you are able to deflect multiple targets (up to 12 mobs in PVE, and versus 2 players in PVP).
If you call it "Survivor" make it a Survivor then. Make other TR players proud. And finaly TR will be wanted class for dungeons.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
Suggestion: Bait and Switch (@Gentleman Crush) It would be nice ice bait and switch could be used while under CC (control effects).
Using bait and switch under control effects would leave our clone in the control effect but we will roll away with a 2 second immunity.
Feedback: Bait and Switch
In its current state, bait and switch is not very effective in pvp and pve. Please consider the above change. (It will be similar to gwf unstoppable mechanic for tr, but to allow them to escape CC instead of tank damage) Thanks!
Added Notes with functionality listed: Bait and switch This feat will not be usable while prone and the 2 second immunity will be in place just to make sure our characters can actually roll out of the CC skill being cast on them.
Also I would like it if bait and switch made us teleport back like CW teleport looks, but we appear back with an inky shadowy warp similar to ITC's design image.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Can other paths be faster? Of course. Nobody is denying that. But can Scoundrel be managed within reasonable bounds of performance? You watch, you decide.
No dangers of death, no use of healing pots, no super-technique, just easy and intuitive use of attacks.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I seem to have tracked it down to the fact that it mostly happens when at some point certain AoE encounters are activated. I did see it happening with single-target encounters but it is very rare, but with AoE encounters of PotB and Smoke Bomb, it happens frequently. Didn't see it happening with Blitz, though.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I put screens from ATC, both vs dummy and pve encounter.
First thoughs:
*Sabouter is way to go, its easier and more fun to play, great for solo PVE
*Executioner has higher theoretical damage, but lacks survivalability, might be better in group PVE
Especialy if we use first strike, which I didnt.
Other stuff I noticed:
Path of blade doesnt work with one with the shadow feat.
It does proc Swashbuckling Captain Set bonus, but only on first tick.
Shadow Strike consumes one with the shadow which is just stupid
Action Advantage feat seems to be bugged. It doesnt show any extra AP in character sheet.
I did some testing (2-3 times each). Respec my char and hit dummy with or without Action Advantage,
I had summonned companion, to get combat advantage all the time. The results are:
~140 hits of sly flourish w/o AA to get full AP bar
~135 hits of sly flourish with AA ro get full AP bar
The feat is useless as it is now, because the difference is very small.
Disciple of Strenght doesnt show any bonus at all in character sheet.
Didnt test if it works or not.
While runing out of heroic encounter mobs were following me for much longer than on live server.
e.g. from totem of Aurill next to Mother Lode, untill I crossed the road.
Improved cunning is useless in PVE. Id like to see changes like extra seconds instead of %.
It will give builds based on stealth better survivalability.
All stealth nerf are because or PVP, I dont mind to see more changes whith different pvp/pve affect.
I know it could be implemented, we have PVP boons and HR shift mechanic, so please DEVS make it happen.
Duelists Flurry - while in stealth the third chain attack should count as one attack.
I can only hit two times while in stealth, but I cannot now stealth attack only third part of DF sequence
(pressing steath after 2nd strike, it doesnt last long enough to finish 3rd attack chain ;/)
It leave TR in open, making this power less and less usefull.
Another option will be to improve resistance/deflect chance while in 3rd strike chain animation.
I see huge difference how TRs are dealing damage now. It used to be based on our at-wills. Now we use encounters in stealth and gloaming cut. When we run out of stealth duelists flurry is still good option. Because off all this our main atribute DEX is much less effective. Most of our damage comes from encounters while stealth which gives 100% crit.
I see two options:
Make DEX our damage ability
Change stealth to 50% extra crit chance, but make it stack (adding up) with our gear/other feats etc.
Still the worst enemy TR has is AOE spells/attacks, it drains stealth very quick leave us in open,
even with hight deflect and defense it is hard to stay alive.
While for other pve classess high life steal is enough to keep them alive, most of them just stay in range
TR needs a bit more, because we need to get into melee and we lacks protection like GF or GWF
(GWF have difficulties in staying alive in mod5 content anyway).
I'd like too seee some changes for at-wills while not in stealth, or just few seconds after we leave stealth.
Like extra % of deflect as a feat instead of T1 Roll with Punches which has too low % to make a difference
or just improve some at-will which are unused now (sly flourish, maybe duelists flurry).
It could have stack while attacking with chosen at wills, e.g. sly flourish and/or duelists flurry.
QUESTIONS:
Cunning Ambusher stacks, is it WAI?
How do Gutterborns Touch and Exposed weakness work?
Is it the same as high prophet set, plaguefire, high vizier, etc?
So it is just extra % of damage while I reached capp of 24% in PVE?
That's the build I'm currently running. My only complaint with it is soloing some of the lair bosses (Jail warden in particular). Scoundrel/Scoundrel hybrid can keep up with mobs and multiple HDs' worth of creatures, but when adds spawn mid-fight, disrupting your stun rotation, then you're toast. (usually only a problem when trying to burn a 9+HD boss or mini-boss. scoundrel needs to clear and drop, not stay soloing)
Oddly I've had no real problem with either of the WoD lair bosses. The encounter loadout I've been using is Dazing/VP/Blitz and I tend to use Blitz defensively. I have a high enough Crit chance that I regularly proc Concussive Strike on the whole group using Blitz, which buys me breathing room. I've also got a higher than normal recovery so my encounters cycle relatively quickly.
I changed tactics to target the strongest mob first. Stealth, run in, use VP to proc Skull Cracker, DiS from stealth for the auto-crit, unload as many CoS blades as I can get away with, and start dodging. Keeping mobile is critical and WK allows you to do that while still DPSing. The odd Blitz helps keep mobs at bay.
It works until you hit an encounter with multiple spawns at short intervals. You just can't clear fast enough as a Scoundrel and you get overwhelmed.
stealth continue to feel luckster and without any tools to naturally refill it i dont even feel the need to use it.
When in stealth i have basically two option:
throw 3 arlt will hitting for 10k
Or
Using an encounter
After this bye stealth virtually forever if i keep in combat.
In the best scenario stealth uptime is less than 5 per cent leading tree like executioner to basically play with no feats (they pretty much work in stealth)
This is not just an executioner problem.
All the path required pretty much to slot shadow strike losing one encounter slot.
Stealth as now is just a crappy tab.
If at will drains it why they cant refill it out of stealth????
The overall best path is saboteur. It has nothing wrong but shadow strike proccing one with the shadows which is an utterly no sense.
Scoundrel feels fun but needs way more deflect and way more life steal.
That feat around 10 deflect under 30 per cent HP makes no sense at all: as a TR you either survive or get 1shotted.
Over all what i hate is that stealth is less than a side disc in TR dinner. A side disc that you only consume once every meal without slotting shadow strike. I would like to see gwf using shadow-unstoppable or their unstoppable bar depleting upon taking damage and dealing damage. Would be fair right?
I cant say the job isnt good but something is stealth need to be revised.
Base time prolonged, bar steady refilling upon dealing damage.
It looks clearly like command on begun-destroy TR tab. Then permission to make other changes. Instead of fixing important things as ban all hard target users and disable it from game once and forever, they simply helped cheaters even more. Well, each time i heard unfair requests to destry stealth i never saw anyone saying to disable unstoppable of gwf, to disable 6 skills of HR or disable shield of GF and control of CW skills. Why no one come up with this idea if they come up with same ridiculous idea to destroy stealth?
This whole rework of stealth is after all evidence that devs don't know TR problems and they simply fulfilled wish of hypocrites crying to destroy stealth.
Major problems with TR tab
-depletes on making dmg when most feats depend on making dmg from stealth
-depletes on taking dmg
-in combat when TR is under attack all time it is not possible to get stealth without slotting one encounter, in result TR has one less encounter than any other class just to use tab as any other class which don't need it
-TR need tab more than ANY OTHER class because they have no defence without stealth and any other class in duel has more survivability and damage(except DC)
-with stealth depleting TR needs to use itc to survive and it means they have one encounter less
Overall TR has 1 encounter left while any other class has 3 because any other class has survivability that TR does not without itc and any other class has tab which does not need encounters to work as TR needs shadow strike.
That is clearly reason that TR tab is not usable it is only problem which should be solved by fixing useless encounters of TR: impact shot, smoke bomb and make TR as HR with 6 encounters. It clearly shows that during 1,5 year you could not fix problems with stealth but you only created more problems.
-
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
Suggestion: Bait and Switch (@Gentleman Crush) It would be nice ice bait and switch could be used while under CC (control effects).
Using bait and switch under control effects would leave our clone in the control effect but we will roll away with a 2 second immunity.
Feedback: Bait and Switch
In its current state, bait and switch is not very effective in pvp and pve. Please consider the above change. (It will be similar to gwf unstoppable mechanic for tr, but to allow them to escape CC instead of tank damage) Thanks!
I always thought this would be excellent as well, it works very well for the imagery and solves an issue by possibly moving our cc immunity powers away from the paragon paths. I assume there is a reason they have never done this though i dont know what i t is.
to be honest i think pve some of the powers issues would be solved by an aggro shift of all the Tr's aggro to tghe dummy. However I have used it pretty effectivly for its action point gain. In tuern if it gets hit by all the mobs in a group or one of the golems its an instant full Ap bar. ive done whirlwind of blades back to back within 3 seconds on live using it.
If it had the aggro shift it would pretty much be awesome in pve i think.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I always thought this would be excellent as well, it works very well for the imagery and solves an issue by possibly moving our cc immunity powers away from the paragon paths. I assume there is a reason they have never done this though i dont know what i t is.
to be honest i think pve some of the powers issues would be solved by an aggro shift of all the Tr's aggro to tghe dummy. However I have used it pretty effectivly for its action point gain. In tuern if it gets hit by all the mobs in a group or one of the golems its an instant full Ap bar. ive done whirlwind of blades back to back within 3 seconds on live using it.
If it had the aggro shift it would pretty much be awesome in pve i think.
i hope it happens
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited October 2014
I honestly doubt it. If it were going to change i expect it would have happened already as part of the mod 5 changes. though it surprised me hat they didnt change the "use in stealth" but for BnS for mod 5. My guess is they view the powers ACtion point gain as its primary purpose or something that. I really havent a clue though i assume they are aware how its generally used in the game. Which is why i thought it would be changed for mod 5
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited October 2014
I swear that back in open beta stuff did attack my dummy. I used it all the time as a decoy and fought things out of stealth because... well, it was open beta and I was levelling my first TR, and he was really squishy, and I didn't really have any of the other defensive powers yet.
Something either broke or got changed under the hood.
Edit: Actually... don't y'all remember that one risk of soling tougher content with a stealth build was that if you couldn't keep up stealth without using the dummy, things would attack it and you'd get thrown out of stealth from the AoE damage? (But the AP gain was lovely.)
Really, it's not the dummy I used to know and love (and sometimes hate because I was on fire).
I seem to have tracked it down to the fact that it mostly happens when at some point certain AoE encounters are activated. I did see it happening with single-target encounters but it is very rare, but with AoE encounters of PotB and Smoke Bomb, it happens frequently. Didn't see it happening with Blitz, though.
Apparently this is happening often with scoundrels - I'm having the same issue. Haven't tried SB from stealth, but from outside stealth, it's dazing me, negating the whole effect of the power.
Also, I noticed the average time for MI was longer. Any particular reason?
Not having had the time to sit through all the videos, but having played both, a big PvE advantage the WK has over the MI, even in the current live build, is the ability to deal a significant amount of DoT to multiple targets at once. MI is restricted to damaging one target at a time, most of the time. Kweassa recently touched on that in this thread as well.
Yes, VP was one of the encounters used in what I did see.
It's good to see people finally coming forth with how they are faring with the new changes. All of these are good source of information for those who have not yet had the chance to test out the new TR. Let's try to be more "constructive" in every meaning of the word by giving our developers as much back up material and reference as possible.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Let's try to be more "constructive" in every meaning of the word by giving our developers as much back up material and reference as possible.
In the PvP i must admit it feels quite squishy to be TR. At the first match he instantly got me in his rotation and i was dead before i get out of it. The second match (recorded) i only won because of the Daily, the third match (i missed to record) i won again, no daily only gloaming cut at will but only a few hits are really hard but i think that the most player will adapt, because if i run out of stealth i only have dodge till i can run again in stealth and it can be over by any mistake i make. I openly think saboteur can still work in PvP if the other player will learn him know.
In PvE as Saboteur it's pretty the same. In the second i am out of stealth and directly attacked (trained dogs and barbarians in icewinddale) i am over. If i keep in stealth all is okay but every void can be my end. I think it's a good exchange of mechanic and feel good as TR-Saboteur. I hope the Videos show it. @Devs: It seems the Damage of the Glyphs is broken (mighty red dragon) the damage goes up to 4-5K. Stealth will not be proper replenish by one with the shadows. And Wicked Reminder starts to progg if i use shortly after an at-will power.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
CoS has the special effect of each consecutive shots landed increasing the damage of the next
DF has the special effect of CC immunity, 100% deflection, and bleeds for extra damage
GC has the special effect of 0 stealth depletion, stealth regen with a kill, and increasing damage in reverse proportion to target HP
DHS is a persistent DoT attack that can be applied to multipel targets
SF is a... um... errrrr....
What does SF have...?
NOTHING
Suggestion
Sly Flourish now attacks 5 times in the same timeframe as the 4 attacks made currently in Live
(※ Not actual values )
* for example, if SF attacks 4 times each with 25 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 1s to follow through
* then let the new SF attack 5 times each with 10 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 0.8s
* summary: 1 more attack in the same time frame, but overall around 50% damage decrease
let each hit of SF provide a stacking buff(max 5 stacks) for 2s (and refreshes with new stack) that provide a 2% increase in deflect chance and 1% increase in deflect severity (additive)
if all 5 attacks from the SF combo is hit in a single chain, then let it provide 10% extra deflection chance and 5% extra deflect severity for the next 5s
Concept behind the Suggestion
(1) At first I've thought of stealth refill.. maybe 2% per attack. But then I realized this would make the current Sab builds even more powerful, as well as Scoundrel builds that can CC a target long enough to land the attacks easily.
(2) Many people in PvE are having difficulties in adjusting to the new mechanic, which requires you to actively use encounters from stealth for damage -- which leaves you to survive out of stealth until the next stealth rotation is made possible.
(3) My experiences with MMOGs tells me a 'reliable' threshold value for squishy classes to use evasion/parry/deflect type of mechanics as a main form of defense, is 60%. Once the evade/parry/deflect reaches 60% then there is noticeable increase in survival. People start to get the impression that your character is actually evading all those attacks efficiently.
(4) High deflect builds for TRs currently simmer around 40% deflection. Some extreme cases can get it upto nearly 50%, but the most common/average cases it would be something around 37~43%.
(5) So, if we "conceptualize" what the at-wills are, and what they are for:
CoS - ranged harassment, but decent source of damage if all attacks hit in a stream
DF - a high damage tool, slow to activate but powerful if connects
GC - a extremely slow-but-powerful attack
DHS - high damage, but needs time to reach full damage
...all of the above, are offensive in nature. But currently people feel TR still lacks defense, and especially with the new changes leaving the TR to fight out of stealth more often (or.. go Sab and perma-GC).
Then would it not be OK to have ONE of the at-will powers become defensive in its nature? Something that could fill the need for more defense, but not at too strong levels, just enough to provide meaningful, short bursts of defense when it is in trouble?
Obviously, I do not want Slu Flourish to be so powerful as to something you can just keep swinging, but still strong enough to keep you alive in the midst of multiple mobs or enemy players.
If what I envision works out, I expect it to work out in the following manner:
(1) You've built your TR for defense, with high deflection. 40% base.
(2) When you are out of stealth, you start swinging SF.
(3) While you continue the attack, your deflection is increased to 60%, defseverity to 85%
(4) If you make use of Mocking Gesture as a scoundrel, momentarily your deflect will reach an amazing 70%
(5) but the damage you deal is weak. Damage wise SF will be the lowest at-will of them all by far
So basically, this will be a defensive at-will which will significantly increase your life expectancy while you're surrounded by mobs, until your crucial encounters recharge
However, even if it is a powerful defense, it is still chance-based, also the damage is very low
This is to encourage people to use it as a tool to momentarily make up the need to survive, and then move out of it when you are ready to attack strong again.
I don't want people to just lazily park in front of a mob group and press down one-button to kill everything easily... something which was possible in Live -- the stealth + at-will spamming. Even if you're safe, your damage is so low that it's going to take forever to kill a strong mob... also it's deflect -- it might fail at some point
So:
(1) it is a form of active defense, not a passive one like stealth. You need to keep hitting to make it work
(2) a significant increase in survival, but still a chance it might fail. You don't want to abuse it too much
(3) not very much worth as an offensive power. You can't kill something easily and still stay safe with one button
Might be interesting to see how it works out.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
FEEDBACK: SLY FLOURISH
***SNIP***
Might be interesting to see how it works out.
I really love the direction you are thinking for this... perhaps something a little simpler:
Sly Flourish Suggestion
Each critical hit with Sly Flourish adds 5% deflect chance (max 4 stacks)
Initial stack last 2 seconds, plus 1 second for each additional stack
Now, even at low levels the deflect boost will have a noticeable effect. If it feels too strong, give the max deflection from Sly Flourish a cap, for instance, Sly Flourish can't take the total deflect chance above 70%.
Campaign - Trail of the Imaskarcana (NWS-DMFG77QOF)
CoS has the special effect of each consecutive shots landed increasing the damage of the next
DF has the special effect of CC immunity, 100% deflection, and bleeds for extra damage
GC has the special effect of 0 stealth depletion, stealth regen with a kill, and increasing damage in reverse proportion to target HP
DHS is a persistent DoT attack that can be applied to multipel targets
SF is a... um... errrrr....
What does SF have...?
NOTHING
Suggestion
Sly Flourish now attacks 5 times in the same timeframe as the 4 attacks made currently in Live
(※ Not actual values )
* for example, if SF attacks 4 times each with 25 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 1s to follow through
* then let the new SF attack 5 times each with 10 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 0.8s
* summary: 1 more attack in the same time frame, but overall around 50% damage decrease
let each hit of SF provide a stacking buff(max 5 stacks) for 2s (and refreshes with new stack) that provide a 2% increase in deflect chance and 1% increase in deflect severity (additive)
if all 5 attacks from the SF combo is hit in a single chain, then let it provide 10% extra deflection chance and 5% extra deflect severity for the next 5s
Concept behind the Suggestion
(1) At first I've thought of stealth refill.. maybe 2% per attack. But then I realized this would make the current Sab builds even more powerful, as well as Scoundrel builds that can CC a target long enough to land the attacks easily.
(2) Many people in PvE are having difficulties in adjusting to the new mechanic, which requires you to actively use encounters from stealth for damage -- which leaves you to survive out of stealth until the next stealth rotation is made possible.
(3) My experiences with MMOGs tells me a 'reliable' threshold value for squishy classes to use evasion/parry/deflect type of mechanics as a main form of defense, is 60%. Once the evade/parry/deflect reaches 60% then there is noticeable increase in survival. People start to get the impression that your character is actually evading all those attacks efficiently.
(4) High deflect builds for TRs currently simmer around 40% deflection. Some extreme cases can get it upto nearly 50%, but the most common/average cases it would be something around 37~43%.
(5) So, if we "conceptualize" what the at-wills are, and what they are for:
CoS - ranged harassment, but decent source of damage if all attacks hit in a stream
DF - a high damage tool, slow to activate but powerful if connects
GC - a extremely slow-but-powerful attack
DHS - high damage, but needs time to reach full damage
...all of the above, are offensive in nature. But currently people feel TR still lacks defense, and especially with the new changes leaving the TR to fight out of stealth more often (or.. go Sab and perma-GC).
Then would it not be OK to have ONE of the at-will powers become defensive in its nature? Something that could fill the need for more defense, but not at too strong levels, just enough to provide meaningful, short bursts of defense when it is in trouble?
Obviously, I do not want Slu Flourish to be so powerful as to something you can just keep swinging, but still strong enough to keep you alive in the midst of multiple mobs or enemy players.
If what I envision works out, I expect it to work out in the following manner:
(1) You've built your TR for defense, with high deflection. 40% base.
(2) When you are out of stealth, you start swinging SF.
(3) While you continue the attack, your deflection is increased to 60%, defseverity to 85%
(4) If you make use of Mocking Gesture as a scoundrel, momentarily your deflect will reach an amazing 70%
(5) but the damage you deal is weak. Damage wise SF will be the lowest at-will of them all by far
So basically, this will be a defensive at-will which will significantly increase your life expectancy while you're surrounded by mobs, until your crucial encounters recharge
However, even if it is a powerful defense, it is still chance-based, also the damage is very low
This is to encourage people to use it as a tool to momentarily make up the need to survive, and then move out of it when you are ready to attack strong again.
I don't want people to just lazily park in front of a mob group and press down one-button to kill everything easily... something which was possible in Live -- the stealth + at-will spamming. Even if you're safe, your damage is so low that it's going to take forever to kill a strong mob... also it's deflect -- it might fail at some point
So:
(1) it is a form of active defense, not a passive one like stealth. You need to keep hitting to make it work
(2) a significant increase in survival, but still a chance it might fail. You don't want to abuse it too much
(3) not very much worth as an offensive power. You can't kill something easily and still stay safe with one button
Might be interesting to see how it works out.
I like it, i did suggest something with sly flourish a few times where you gain deflect in a stack etc...
I like that others see the need for our at-wills need a once over to evaluate usefulness.
May I respectfully share my thoughts and ideas to the upcoming changes for the TR class. This are some of the things I noticed based on my experience for a year playing a TR in NW. *slow for a leather user
*lacks tools to survive (compared to HR with 6 encounters, choice of self buff, self healing with high deflect without sacrificing offense for defense. other class is self explanatory)
*some feats are inferior to other class (other class's feats affects 2-3 encounters with big %)
Feedback: Bait and Switch I feel this encounter needs some attention. I would like to suggest Bait and Switch: Breaks cc and provides 3 seconds stealth (does not deplete stealth meter)
Feedback: Smoke Bomb With the current changes in Dazing Strike this high level encounter is out tiered. I would like to suggest Smoke Bomb: increases deflection chance by 15% while inside the smoke with a persisting effect of 4 secs after leaving the aoe. Smoke Bomb: applies a 5% slow and 5% of current hp as piercing damage.
Feedback: Duelist Flurry The current changes in stealth and the inability to stun or prone makes this At-will hard to use in pvp. I would like to suggest Duelist Flurry: 3rd strike to be usable after the 2nd strike for 4 seconds. Provides 100% deflect chance during the 3rd strike.
Feedback: Impact Shot I do not understand why a three charge encounter with low damage will have a diminishing damage per charge. May I respectfully suggest that all three charges will have the same damage and have a 20% chance to stun for 2 seconds or a 4 secs root because TR is the only class that does not have a stun or prone.
Comments
I'll be honest. I've stopped reading this thread and only come in when I've had a chance to do testing on preview, because the arguing and debate makes it useless and tedious to go through. I've even reported posts in it because the arguing became extreme.
I came in to see if anyone had anything new, got through four pages working backwards from the most recent, and the first post I saw was someone telling someone else to chill out, and then the rest was, yeah, mostly arguments.
I'm disappointed in us.
So, some feedback on the feedback to the feedback:
- Not everyone is an elite player who's been playing since closed beta and has a 20k GS and five legendary artifacts. This is good, because the experiences of people who've been playing that long and have all that gear are distorted. I've been playing since Beta Weekend 3, but life, homelessness, illness, and the like have caused me to miss months worth of time, to where my main character created day 1 is only just now hitting 360 ardent coins. I've only got a 16.1k GS. And I recognize that my perspective is still distorted, because I have been playing so long, and I have reached a decent level of gearing.
- Not everyone is going to be a perfect player. People may suffer from latency due to bad internet, and while you can adapt to consistent latency, some people(including me) will not only have bad ping, they'll spike all over the map or waver between two high ranges. So people can have that. People can have eye-hand coordination issues, mobility issues, be new at the game, etc. Someone with consistent 30ms ping and no physical issues is going to do a lot better than someone spiking everywhere and having slow fingers. This is inarguable.
So, the thing is, the game needs to be playable for everyone. If the TR is only usable to any decent effect in PvE by a top-tier player, the TR is not where it needs to be. Johnny Q. Random does indeed need to learn how to play, but even a build that isn't perfect needs to at least be usable, and playable without perfect reflexes and timing.
The average queue group I get when I PUG skirmishes or even dungeons is generally 11-14k GS with the odd slumming 16-18k. It is made of people who haven't been told that Ice Storm is terrible in groups, that Sly Flourish is a bad at-will, that Knight's Valor is good, etc. They do not have a Perfect Vorpal like I do. They're wearing Rank 5 enchants, if that. They have blue and even green artifacts. They have mod 3 appearances and haven't been playing that long. If a class isn't useful and enjoyable until you hit a very high level of skill and gearing, how many of the newer casual players do you think are going to actually stick to it?
So yes, we need the newer players testing this, and we NEED their feedback.
This is not the time for elitism and 'Your playstayle is wrong'. If DF started and then stealthed in into a Lashing Blade or Wicked Reminder is an effective tactic in Mod 4 and earlier, then it was a good playstyle whether you personally liked it or not and people not finding an equivalent they like in the changes is fine, and important feedback.
If Johnny Q. Random makes a TR and finds he can't contribute in dungeons unless he's overgeared and using exactly the right rotation exactly the right way, he's not going to keep playing his TR when everyone tells him to go make a CW instead. He's going to go make that CW, or he's just going to quit because he doesn't want to play a CW, he wants to play his cool-looking TR he enjoys.
These people are the ones who are eventually going to become the game's top TRs... If we let them. If we don't drive them away telling them they don't know anything and can't contribute and can't possibly understand. If a newer, less geared player is having problems, maybe it's not just him. Maybe it's the class. That needs to be listened to, and looked at. By the devs, not us, because yelling someone down or telling them they're doing it wrong because you don't like their opinion or what they find enjoyable helps absolutely no one.
Having logeed into the preview to test the TR - must say very disappointed to find that my build along the Executioner tree has been removed all together. The Paragon path feat to support my main at-will (Duelist's Flurry) is no longer included. To top it off, it has taken me many dedicated hours to earn all components to get the right artifact weapon to support this at-will (Horn of the Golden Dragon), not to mention all of the hard earned currency and time to level it up.
I find it very hard to believe that you have had so many OP complaints regarding this at-will with the complimenting artifact weapon that you chose to remove it from the feat tree. Artifact weapons are very new. No free respec can replace the time and dedication taken to build this TR, which is much more difficult to play correctly than my GWF - something that is more rewarding when it all comes together.
It would seem that non perma stealth TR's (like mine and other friends) are getting hit very hard too and would like you to reconsider removal of Duelist's Flurry from the Executioner Paragon path.
Also, combat rolls and stealth bar reduction show no buff in preview, no observable increase in Disheartening Strike buff either - though these new changes would seem to have dealt a very commited player the biggest disheartening strike of all.
Kind regards
Simon
Feedback Sabotour:
The tree not my kind. The hop in stealth for a sec, encounter restealth, encounter etc is meh ... too annoying. The stealth mechanic died for me, its like a First Strike passive without a skill slot. I guess most of the new rouges wont really use it
Feedback Scoundrel:
Still like it. Tho the only reason for this tree is the "random" daze. Life steal and deflect bonus from feats still too low. Didnt even noticed it when changed to Executioner.
Should have a longer time duration smoke bomb option on 1 of its daze feats
The damage is ok (as its a tank build), but need a little more deflect/life steal bonus(as its a tank build)
Feedback Executioner:
The concept is good as i said before.
Feedback Whisperknife:
Still have lower dps than MI. Should have more CoS (12 was before ?) and a little higher bonus from Dagger Threat
Retested WK Scoudrel with a 10pt dip into Exe for Arterial Cut and Vengeful Pursuit. Also watched my rotations more closely. Got a noticeable increase to DPS which helped make combat smoother. Did the Drake Pen lair and a few of the minor HEs in WoD with little trouble and had a bunch of fun. Tried the Cult Patrol minor HE and got annihilated. The Drake Rider is too tough to take down fast as Scoundrel and that gives too much time for the reinforcements to show up. Without easy access to stealth I got mobbed and died hard. That was the only time I really felt a lack of survivability options though.
Overall I think Scoundrel is just about there.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
When in stealth i have basically two option:
throw 3 arlt will hitting for 10k
Or
Using an encounter
After this bye stealth virtually forever if i keep in combat.
In the best scenario stealth uptime is less than 5 per cent leading tree like executioner to basically play with no feats (they pretty much work in stealth)
This is not just an executioner problem.
All the path required pretty much to slot shadow strike losing one encounter slot.
Stealth as now is just a crappy tab.
If at will drains it why they cant refill it out of stealth????
The overall best path is saboteur. It has nothing wrong but shadow strike proccing one with the shadows which is an utterly no sense.
Scoundrel feels fun but needs way more deflect and way more life steal.
That feat around 10 deflect under 30 per cent HP makes no sense at all: as a TR you either survive or get 1shotted.
Over all what i hate is that stealth is less than a side disc in TR dinner. A side disc that you only consume once every meal without slotting shadow strike. I would like to see gwf using shadow-unstoppable or their unstoppable bar depleting upon taking damage and dealing damage. Would be fair right?
I cant say the job isnt good but something is stealth need to be revised.
Base time prolonged, bar steady refilling upon dealing damage.
That's the build I'm currently running. My only complaint with it is soloing some of the lair bosses (Jail warden in particular). Scoundrel/Scoundrel hybrid can keep up with mobs and multiple HDs' worth of creatures, but when adds spawn mid-fight, disrupting your stun rotation, then you're toast. (usually only a problem when trying to burn a 9+HD boss or mini-boss. scoundrel needs to clear and drop, not stay soloing)
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
■ stealth about to run out → Dazing Strike (wide arc) → PotB
I can already hear some of you thinking to yourselves, "Is this it? Just using DS with the pathetic damage PotB, this is supposed to give us great results?"... and I will say on to you who might think so, "yeah, it does".
When you think about it, it is incredibly simple in theory.
(1) You use the wide-arc stealth-Dazing Strike to hit as many mobs as you can with one hit
(2) All of the mobs hit are afflicted with Skull Cracker
(3) Among those mobs, three of them will be hit with PotB attacks, and the daze duration is extended by +2s
In other words, so long as you have Skull Cracker ready, at any given time three of the mobs are totally neutralized as you leave out of stealth. Most mob groups are what... 4? 5 at most?
It is at this moment that I've learned that despite the nerf PotB is extremely useful.. and in some sense the 3-target activation is a buff that greatly outweighs the decrease in damage -- at least for Scoundrels it is.
PotB is a power -- due to its auto-attack and passive nature -- that does not proc anything. It doesn't proc Skull Cracker, doesn't proc One With the Shadows, doesn't proc Return to Shadows... nothing. But it is still an attack, therefore a target hit with PotB receives the same [+0.5s daze duration increase per attack] as any other attack.
And once that happens, PotB attacks then benefit from:
(1) 25% damage increase from Low Blows
(2) another 25% damage increase from Skull Cracker
If the old PotB was "100" in damage, the new PotB is "33", Skull Cracker+Lowblows applied it is "49.5".
Now, why is this important? Why does something that seems so simple make that much of a difference? Because the main component of damage when I use a WK/Scoundrel against 3~4 "hard/strong" HE level mobs, is Disheartening Strike. The application of this strong DoT power, combined with all-ranged tactics, gives me enough time to constantly and steadily deal damage against such strong targets while I'm also concentrating on self-defense.
Why do some people seem unable to get good results with Scoundrel? These are the reasons:
When people try the Scoundrel, they usually try it with melee-oriented MI paragon builds
When they choose powers, they don't really test different combinations out. They just instinctively choose damage over utility, and as a result miss out on a lot of possibilities just waiting for to be discovered
MIs don't have a powerful DoT attack like the WK, which constantly deals damage against multiple targets
This means, in order to deal damage, they can only attack one at a time. No matter how powerful at-wills like GC is, it is always against only one target at a given time.
This also means that when dealing damage they are forced in a situation where they cannot take any defensive action
If they take defensive action, they have no damage going in while they are busy moving around and dodging
...you get the picture.
When you come to face POWERFUL mob groups like the strong-grade Wight types or etc etc.. in IWD, and 3~5 of them at a given time, what happens with melee/MI Scoundrels is that they can't one-shot the POWERFUL mobs no matter how strong their melee attack is, and since those mobs have very strong damage you can't stay at one place free-dealing. The more you move around the less damage you do, and every time your SS is in cooldown you just feel like a walking punch-bag. If you switch around to all-defensive encounters like Smokebomb or BnS for more stealth, then you lose even more damage.
This is the problem the players who complain about the Scoundrel faces.
The only way for a Scoundrel to rememdy a situation like this is by using the weapons he's got to its max potential. I come across a few Scoundrels in the preview from time to time and I still observe many cases where those players just do not know how the Skull Cracker mechanic works, blows away 2 precious seconds of extra daze, does not know how to plant Concussive Strikes for extra damage from Low Blows, etc etc... and this is one of the reasons I was frustrated in the other post. Not many people really know how the Scoundrel mechanics work. No, I mean really.
As soon as my vids are uploaded to Youtube, I will post links of how I fight with a melee/MI Scoundrel in PvE... and no, I'm not 20k GS. I've recently reached 17k GS, have under 5k power, my HP does not exceed 40k, and I don't have one of those endless-healing Black Ice gear, and in almost all of the vids I've not once used a healing potion.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
*2.5% more Deflect Chance; 2.5% more Lifesteal; When your HP is below 30% you gain 10% increased deflect chance; You gain 10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth,...*
Unsure if this new tanky TR class can be good as it sounds, because:
1. Poor stealth bar is weaker (what to deflect now in stealth when it will burn in 2 seconds?)
2. ITC skill is ruined
3. Only 2.5% Lifesteal versus "Executioner TR" or Warlock in PVP? Or against new spawned creatures in the middle of the fight?
- It's better to have "When your HP is below 50% you gain 14% increased deflect chance, and your lifesteal rise for 2%"
- Instead to make "You gain 10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth" cryptic should make passive feat:"You gain 5% deflect chance and you are able to deflect multiple targets (up to 12 mobs in PVE, and versus 2 players in PVP).
If you call it "Survivor" make it a Survivor then. Make other TR players proud. And finaly TR will be wanted class for dungeons.
It would be nice ice bait and switch could be used while under CC (control effects).
Using bait and switch under control effects would leave our clone in the control effect but we will roll away with a 2 second immunity.
Feedback: Bait and Switch
In its current state, bait and switch is not very effective in pvp and pve. Please consider the above change. (It will be similar to gwf unstoppable mechanic for tr, but to allow them to escape CC instead of tank damage) Thanks!
Added Notes with functionality listed: Bait and switch
This feat will not be usable while prone and the 2 second immunity will be in place just to make sure our characters can actually roll out of the CC skill being cast on them.
Also I would like it if bait and switch made us teleport back like CW teleport looks, but we appear back with an inky shadowy warp similar to ITC's design image.
■ Merchant in Distress: http://youtu.be/IwZTLUYr4Yc
■ Marauding Barbarians: http://youtu.be/DStv2_qq7cM
■ Yeti Rampage: http://youtu.be/heJ0RYiBuO0
■ Captured Prospectors: http://youtu.be/XlwEyOJ1GoA
PvE videos, Ice Wind Dale, MI/melee Scoundrel
■ Ancestral Ceremonies (Pt.1: Phase1): http://youtu.be/8KFylMgMAAQ
■ Ancestral Ceremonies (Pt.2: Boss): http://youtu.be/FcJo25-sQAs
■ Marauding Barbarians: http://youtu.be/-ecVjB7VtzM
■ Merchant in Distress: http://youtu.be/GoAsIRBaHWc
■ The Totem of Auril: http://youtu.be/GsoMf7y6kRo
■ Use of AoEs: http://youtu.be/5OLAfaFxf_k
Can other paths be faster? Of course. Nobody is denying that. But can Scoundrel be managed within reasonable bounds of performance? You watch, you decide.
No dangers of death, no use of healing pots, no super-technique, just easy and intuitive use of attacks.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I seem to have tracked it down to the fact that it mostly happens when at some point certain AoE encounters are activated. I did see it happening with single-target encounters but it is very rare, but with AoE encounters of PotB and Smoke Bomb, it happens frequently. Didn't see it happening with Blitz, though.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Both videos are from Totem of Aurill heroic encounters.
One for executioner:
http://youtu.be/FcCUkA9rPrI
One for sabouter:
http://youtu.be/0DlJoT9_57s
I put screens from ATC, both vs dummy and pve encounter.
First thoughs:
*Sabouter is way to go, its easier and more fun to play, great for solo PVE
*Executioner has higher theoretical damage, but lacks survivalability, might be better in group PVE
Especialy if we use first strike, which I didnt.
Other stuff I noticed:
Path of blade doesnt work with one with the shadow feat.
It does proc Swashbuckling Captain Set bonus, but only on first tick.
Shadow Strike consumes one with the shadow which is just stupid
Action Advantage feat seems to be bugged. It doesnt show any extra AP in character sheet.
I did some testing (2-3 times each). Respec my char and hit dummy with or without Action Advantage,
I had summonned companion, to get combat advantage all the time.
The results are:
~140 hits of sly flourish w/o AA to get full AP bar
~135 hits of sly flourish with AA ro get full AP bar
The feat is useless as it is now, because the difference is very small.
Disciple of Strenght doesnt show any bonus at all in character sheet.
Didnt test if it works or not.
While runing out of heroic encounter mobs were following me for much longer than on live server.
e.g. from totem of Aurill next to Mother Lode, untill I crossed the road.
Improved cunning is useless in PVE. Id like to see changes like extra seconds instead of %.
It will give builds based on stealth better survivalability.
All stealth nerf are because or PVP, I dont mind to see more changes whith different pvp/pve affect.
I know it could be implemented, we have PVP boons and HR shift mechanic, so please DEVS make it happen.
Duelists Flurry - while in stealth the third chain attack should count as one attack.
I can only hit two times while in stealth, but I cannot now stealth attack only third part of DF sequence
(pressing steath after 2nd strike, it doesnt last long enough to finish 3rd attack chain ;/)
It leave TR in open, making this power less and less usefull.
Another option will be to improve resistance/deflect chance while in 3rd strike chain animation.
I see huge difference how TRs are dealing damage now. It used to be based on our at-wills. Now we use encounters in stealth and gloaming cut. When we run out of stealth duelists flurry is still good option. Because off all this our main atribute DEX is much less effective. Most of our damage comes from encounters while stealth which gives 100% crit.
I see two options:
Make DEX our damage ability
Change stealth to 50% extra crit chance, but make it stack (adding up) with our gear/other feats etc.
Still the worst enemy TR has is AOE spells/attacks, it drains stealth very quick leave us in open,
even with hight deflect and defense it is hard to stay alive.
While for other pve classess high life steal is enough to keep them alive, most of them just stay in range
TR needs a bit more, because we need to get into melee and we lacks protection like GF or GWF
(GWF have difficulties in staying alive in mod5 content anyway).
I'd like too seee some changes for at-wills while not in stealth, or just few seconds after we leave stealth.
Like extra % of deflect as a feat instead of T1 Roll with Punches which has too low % to make a difference
or just improve some at-will which are unused now (sly flourish, maybe duelists flurry).
It could have stack while attacking with chosen at wills, e.g. sly flourish and/or duelists flurry.
QUESTIONS:
Cunning Ambusher stacks, is it WAI?
How do Gutterborns Touch and Exposed weakness work?
Is it the same as high prophet set, plaguefire, high vizier, etc?
So it is just extra % of damage while I reached capp of 24% in PVE?
I changed tactics to target the strongest mob first. Stealth, run in, use VP to proc Skull Cracker, DiS from stealth for the auto-crit, unload as many CoS blades as I can get away with, and start dodging. Keeping mobile is critical and WK allows you to do that while still DPSing. The odd Blitz helps keep mobs at bay.
It works until you hit an encounter with multiple spawns at short intervals. You just can't clear fast enough as a Scoundrel and you get overwhelmed.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
It looks clearly like command on begun-destroy TR tab. Then permission to make other changes. Instead of fixing important things as ban all hard target users and disable it from game once and forever, they simply helped cheaters even more. Well, each time i heard unfair requests to destry stealth i never saw anyone saying to disable unstoppable of gwf, to disable 6 skills of HR or disable shield of GF and control of CW skills. Why no one come up with this idea if they come up with same ridiculous idea to destroy stealth?
This whole rework of stealth is after all evidence that devs don't know TR problems and they simply fulfilled wish of hypocrites crying to destroy stealth.
Major problems with TR tab
-depletes on making dmg when most feats depend on making dmg from stealth
-depletes on taking dmg
-in combat when TR is under attack all time it is not possible to get stealth without slotting one encounter, in result TR has one less encounter than any other class just to use tab as any other class which don't need it
-TR need tab more than ANY OTHER class because they have no defence without stealth and any other class in duel has more survivability and damage(except DC)
-with stealth depleting TR needs to use itc to survive and it means they have one encounter less
Overall TR has 1 encounter left while any other class has 3 because any other class has survivability that TR does not without itc and any other class has tab which does not need encounters to work as TR needs shadow strike.
That is clearly reason that TR tab is not usable it is only problem which should be solved by fixing useless encounters of TR: impact shot, smoke bomb and make TR as HR with 6 encounters. It clearly shows that during 1,5 year you could not fix problems with stealth but you only created more problems.
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Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
I always thought this would be excellent as well, it works very well for the imagery and solves an issue by possibly moving our cc immunity powers away from the paragon paths. I assume there is a reason they have never done this though i dont know what i t is.
to be honest i think pve some of the powers issues would be solved by an aggro shift of all the Tr's aggro to tghe dummy. However I have used it pretty effectivly for its action point gain. In tuern if it gets hit by all the mobs in a group or one of the golems its an instant full Ap bar. ive done whirlwind of blades back to back within 3 seconds on live using it.
If it had the aggro shift it would pretty much be awesome in pve i think.
i hope it happens
Something either broke or got changed under the hood.
Edit: Actually... don't y'all remember that one risk of soling tougher content with a stealth build was that if you couldn't keep up stealth without using the dummy, things would attack it and you'd get thrown out of stealth from the AoE damage? (But the AP gain was lovely.)
Really, it's not the dummy I used to know and love (and sometimes hate because I was on fire).
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Apparently this is happening often with scoundrels - I'm having the same issue. Haven't tried SB from stealth, but from outside stealth, it's dazing me, negating the whole effect of the power.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Not having had the time to sit through all the videos, but having played both, a big PvE advantage the WK has over the MI, even in the current live build, is the ability to deal a significant amount of DoT to multiple targets at once. MI is restricted to damaging one target at a time, most of the time. Kweassa recently touched on that in this thread as well.
Yes, VP was one of the encounters used in what I did see.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I don't know if this has already been mentioned but I get
"Your shadowy opportunity gives 0 physical damage" - to whatever I am hitting
I thought this was meant to be piercing damage?
Cheers
I made a few videos. The first is up. The Ancestral Totem. Sorry for the bady quality, next uploads will have a better quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkP-0wfx5dE&feature=youtu.be
Note: I am using Saboteur.
Edit: Two more videos
PvE-Medium Ecounter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS-K1vOZVCc
PvP-Icewindpass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6amimdbe4o&feature=youtu.be
Thanks for sharing!
It's good to see people finally coming forth with how they are faring with the new changes. All of these are good source of information for those who have not yet had the chance to test out the new TR. Let's try to be more "constructive" in every meaning of the word by giving our developers as much back up material and reference as possible.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
In the PvP i must admit it feels quite squishy to be TR. At the first match he instantly got me in his rotation and i was dead before i get out of it. The second match (recorded) i only won because of the Daily, the third match (i missed to record) i won again, no daily only gloaming cut at will but only a few hits are really hard but i think that the most player will adapt, because if i run out of stealth i only have dodge till i can run again in stealth and it can be over by any mistake i make. I openly think saboteur can still work in PvP if the other player will learn him know.
In PvE as Saboteur it's pretty the same. In the second i am out of stealth and directly attacked (trained dogs and barbarians in icewinddale) i am over. If i keep in stealth all is okay but every void can be my end. I think it's a good exchange of mechanic and feel good as TR-Saboteur. I hope the Videos show it.
@Devs: It seems the Damage of the Glyphs is broken (mighty red dragon) the damage goes up to 4-5K. Stealth will not be proper replenish by one with the shadows. And Wicked Reminder starts to progg if i use shortly after an at-will power.
Shadowy Opportunity gives 0 Physical Damage
CoS has the special effect of each consecutive shots landed increasing the damage of the next
DF has the special effect of CC immunity, 100% deflection, and bleeds for extra damage
GC has the special effect of 0 stealth depletion, stealth regen with a kill, and increasing damage in reverse proportion to target HP
DHS is a persistent DoT attack that can be applied to multipel targets
SF is a... um... errrrr....
What does SF have...?
NOTHING
Suggestion
Sly Flourish now attacks 5 times in the same timeframe as the 4 attacks made currently in Live (※ Not actual values )
* for example, if SF attacks 4 times each with 25 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 1s to follow through* then let the new SF attack 5 times each with 10 damage over 4 seconds, each attack costing 0.8s
* summary: 1 more attack in the same time frame, but overall around 50% damage decrease
let each hit of SF provide a stacking buff(max 5 stacks) for 2s (and refreshes with new stack) that provide a 2% increase in deflect chance and 1% increase in deflect severity (additive)
if all 5 attacks from the SF combo is hit in a single chain, then let it provide 10% extra deflection chance and 5% extra deflect severity for the next 5s
Concept behind the Suggestion
(1) At first I've thought of stealth refill.. maybe 2% per attack. But then I realized this would make the current Sab builds even more powerful, as well as Scoundrel builds that can CC a target long enough to land the attacks easily.
(2) Many people in PvE are having difficulties in adjusting to the new mechanic, which requires you to actively use encounters from stealth for damage -- which leaves you to survive out of stealth until the next stealth rotation is made possible.
(3) My experiences with MMOGs tells me a 'reliable' threshold value for squishy classes to use evasion/parry/deflect type of mechanics as a main form of defense, is 60%. Once the evade/parry/deflect reaches 60% then there is noticeable increase in survival. People start to get the impression that your character is actually evading all those attacks efficiently.
(4) High deflect builds for TRs currently simmer around 40% deflection. Some extreme cases can get it upto nearly 50%, but the most common/average cases it would be something around 37~43%.
(5) So, if we "conceptualize" what the at-wills are, and what they are for:
CoS - ranged harassment, but decent source of damage if all attacks hit in a stream
DF - a high damage tool, slow to activate but powerful if connects
GC - a extremely slow-but-powerful attack
DHS - high damage, but needs time to reach full damage
...all of the above, are offensive in nature. But currently people feel TR still lacks defense, and especially with the new changes leaving the TR to fight out of stealth more often (or.. go Sab and perma-GC).
Then would it not be OK to have ONE of the at-will powers become defensive in its nature? Something that could fill the need for more defense, but not at too strong levels, just enough to provide meaningful, short bursts of defense when it is in trouble?
Obviously, I do not want Slu Flourish to be so powerful as to something you can just keep swinging, but still strong enough to keep you alive in the midst of multiple mobs or enemy players.
If what I envision works out, I expect it to work out in the following manner:
(1) You've built your TR for defense, with high deflection. 40% base.
(2) When you are out of stealth, you start swinging SF.
(3) While you continue the attack, your deflection is increased to 60%, defseverity to 85%
(4) If you make use of Mocking Gesture as a scoundrel, momentarily your deflect will reach an amazing 70%
(5) but the damage you deal is weak. Damage wise SF will be the lowest at-will of them all by far
So basically, this will be a defensive at-will which will significantly increase your life expectancy while you're surrounded by mobs, until your crucial encounters recharge
However, even if it is a powerful defense, it is still chance-based, also the damage is very low
This is to encourage people to use it as a tool to momentarily make up the need to survive, and then move out of it when you are ready to attack strong again.
I don't want people to just lazily park in front of a mob group and press down one-button to kill everything easily... something which was possible in Live -- the stealth + at-will spamming. Even if you're safe, your damage is so low that it's going to take forever to kill a strong mob... also it's deflect -- it might fail at some point
So:
(1) it is a form of active defense, not a passive one like stealth. You need to keep hitting to make it work
(2) a significant increase in survival, but still a chance it might fail. You don't want to abuse it too much
(3) not very much worth as an offensive power. You can't kill something easily and still stay safe with one button
Might be interesting to see how it works out.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I really love the direction you are thinking for this... perhaps something a little simpler:
Sly Flourish Suggestion
Now, even at low levels the deflect boost will have a noticeable effect. If it feels too strong, give the max deflection from Sly Flourish a cap, for instance, Sly Flourish can't take the total deflect chance above 70%.
I like it, i did suggest something with sly flourish a few times where you gain deflect in a stack etc...
I like that others see the need for our at-wills need a once over to evaluate usefulness.
May I respectfully share my thoughts and ideas to the upcoming changes for the TR class. This are some of the things I noticed based on my experience for a year playing a TR in NW.
*slow for a leather user
*lacks tools to survive (compared to HR with 6 encounters, choice of self buff, self healing with high deflect without sacrificing offense for defense. other class is self explanatory)
*some feats are inferior to other class (other class's feats affects 2-3 encounters with big %)
Feedback: Bait and Switch
I feel this encounter needs some attention. I would like to suggest Bait and Switch: Breaks cc and provides 3 seconds stealth (does not deplete stealth meter)
Feedback: Smoke Bomb
With the current changes in Dazing Strike this high level encounter is out tiered. I would like to suggest Smoke Bomb: increases deflection chance by 15% while inside the smoke with a persisting effect of 4 secs after leaving the aoe. Smoke Bomb: applies a 5% slow and 5% of current hp as piercing damage.
Feedback: Duelist Flurry
The current changes in stealth and the inability to stun or prone makes this At-will hard to use in pvp. I would like to suggest Duelist Flurry: 3rd strike to be usable after the 2nd strike for 4 seconds. Provides 100% deflect chance during the 3rd strike.
Feedback: Impact Shot
I do not understand why a three charge encounter with low damage will have a diminishing damage per charge. May I respectfully suggest that all three charges will have the same damage and have a 20% chance to stun for 2 seconds or a 4 secs root because TR is the only class that does not have a stun or prone.