I don't get what bother the mass of people.
For me, i tested several builds now on the Preview Server and get my DPS to 22.000-24.000. On the Live Server i have now ~15.000 DPS. For me it's a great DPS increase and on the Live Server i am the one that is dying the least because i can dodge, and dodge makes me immun to anything and i don't have the feeling that ITC is "nerfed" too much.
The only thing i didn't tested was the Wisperknife Path...
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
0
mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited October 2014
Feedback
How about a defensesive buff that specificifically targets aoe damage. It fits in line with existing rogue history with evasion. It would also help a lot with primary pve bane for tr (boss doing a giant free circle)
Here is a link to the damage i did on the target dummies as executioner. In the same amount of time, I did 1 million damage less as sabotuer using gloaming cut.
A video of how you play it out.. let's say... "Free all the prospectors(3~5man)" level HE in IWD, solo.
Ofcourse soloing the entire mob group, or clearing the first phase out and then soloing the 'boss phase' is very difficult for most people, so let's see how your Sab does against just 4~5 of the "strong" lieutenant grade mobs and let's see if you can deal damage so much.
Let's see if your Sab can make use of all the stealth opportunities to blow it off by using encounters every chance you get, so your damage allows to perform so superiorly over other TR paths.
I'll try the same with a Scoundrel, and we can compare the vids. I still think all your 'sage advice' here is simply a result of beating down trash mobs or test dummies, with zero actual combat testings... so I'd like to have a change to see and compare if your Sab's so much more powerful than Scoundrels.
Ofcourse, there could be GS differences, but most experienced TRs in these forums can simply look at how two TRs move and use powers, and then see which is being more efficient, so it's not a real problem.
Do we have a deal?
Remember, my conditions are:
* No 'Free the merchant' type of HEs, since those have NPCs grabbing aggro for you.
* 3~5man level HEs in IWD, with the stronger version of mobs clad in black ice stuff
* 4~5mob aggro at the same time should do
* heal pots, dailies, whatever augment pots, companions, all acceptable
I don't have videos, but with a V1 Sab build (first patch) I was able to solo the high-level mob groups on Yeti Rampage and Corrupted Wolf Pack (I may have been able to solo these completely but ran out of time). I was also able to solo the complete Temple of Auril, and blast through all of the lower level HEs in IWD. With a V2 Scoundrel build (latest patch) I was not able to reproduce this level of performance.
The main issue for me is not the lower DPS but more the lack of survivability. While the Scoundrel has tools that are very useful against single targets, against larger groups of strong mobs the inability to enter stealth as frequently combined with the lower incoming LS heals means lower survivability and opportunity to remain on target and dealing damage.
There is no doubt that overall (for PvE at least) the Sab path is significantly superior to both Scoundrel and Executioner.
I don't have videos, but with a V1 Sab build (first patch) I was able to solo the high-level mob groups on Yeti Rampage and Corrupted Wolf Pack (I may have been able to solo these completely but ran out of time). I was also able to solo the complete Temple of Auril, and blast through all of the lower level HEs in IWD. With a V2 Scoundrel build (latest patch) I was not able to reproduce this level of performance.
The main issue for me is not the lower DPS but more the lack of survivability. While the Scoundrel has tools that are very useful against single targets, against larger groups of strong mobs the inability to enter stealth as frequently combined with the lower incoming LS heals means lower survivability and opportunity to remain on target and dealing damage.
There is no doubt that overall (for PvE at least) the Sab path is significantly superior to both Scoundrel and Executioner.
I'll start filming the same HEs played through with both a MI/melee Scoundrel, and a WK/ranged Scoundrel. In turn, in all friendly spirit and for the sake of sharing information to help provide better information to our fellow TR players, I would like to humbly request if I could see how you are faring with the Sab build in those same HEs in form of video recording - if possible.
I know it is a lot to ask, but it would be meaningful just what level of performance/clear time/ease of combat you consider to be so much 'significantly superior' over the Scoundrel, if we can visually compare just how much we're doing, side-by-side... and to see if the Scoundrel method I am using can match it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
sagredo13Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited October 2014
First of all excuse me for my english. It is the first time I post my opinion.
I have tested Saboteur, Scroundel and Exectioner with Master Infiltrator. The main problem is stealth (obviously). Devolopers said that they want to limit perma-stealth. So the first modification is "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack". By this change, stealth with TR is useless. Infact although I have a complete profound set (+30% stealth) and improved cunning sneak (+20%), the real duration of stealth, in combat, is by roughly 1-2 second using at-will power. Thus any player cannot use stealth with at will power. I suggest 2 adjustment:
1) increase the recharge time of the encounter powers that grant stealth (bait and switch and shadow strike), erasing the "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack", or (not both) ,
2) to extend the application of tenacious concealment also to the damage the player deals in combat (now it is applied only to the damage the player receives), manteining the "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack".
With reference to feats:
a) Sobouter: is totally useless. There is not sufficient stealth to allow a balancing combat in stealth. ;
b) Executioner: stealth is used only to have a more powerful attack, but if you are not able to kill your enemy with one shot...
c) Scroundel: is interesting, because is a path based on daze and more survivability. I think is the only playable feat.
I hope I was helpful to improve the system.
Bug: Last moments Well on the target dummy this feat works, but out in the world it does not. I had stealthed and used dazing strike on a dire polar bear at full hp and did a 30k crit. I then lowered his hp to near death and restealthed and did another dazing strike for another 30k crit. It seems last moments is not working as it states.
So iv been testing the three paths quite a bit again and im beginning to feel like i agree with kweassa that they are indeed all quite viable or will be very viable with some minor tweaks which im sure the devs are working on as there is still a while till it all goes live.
Sab has excellent damage and if you slot SS you will be in and out of stealth quite alot, my only concern with using SS is i hate how it procs "one with the shadows" which defeats the purpose. Out of stealth damage on Sab could be be a little on the low side but hopefully if at-wills get a small boost this will fix this.
Scound i first thought was really boring to play but after giving it more testing it is actually really quite fun. Again, you need to slot SS to be able to combine the stealth crit bonus with the skullcracker to stack some nice damage. Also i dont understand why people say the other two paths get better lifesteal, on scound there are few mobs in IWD that actually drain me below 80% and im only 14k GS. You just need to make sure you chain your stuns together properly and not waste our now powerful dazing strike on an already dazed target.
Exec probably the least interesting of the three but huuuuge damage potential even with lower GS like mine (14k). This is the assassin class, always use lashing from stealth followed up by as much damage as you can then in 6 seconds that piercing bomb goes off for 50% of all the damage you just did. Once again, slot SS to get the most out of this path.
Survivability: Dodge rolls and in and out of stealth are our 'tank'. Dodge rolls are still not working right, but when they do there is definatly the option of specing into the dodge roll feats for extra stealth and faster stam recovery. When you play any of these paths you MUST dodge roll. Dont just stand there like all the other sheep cookie cutter classes playing this game. TR is the funnest class because we must stay mobile and be utilizing stealth to add to our survivability. (and it looks cool and pisses GWF off in pvp)
Also: has anyone noticed master infiltrator is giving more than 15% run speed boost?
So to me the icing on our new TR cake would be:
At wills drain 7.5% stealth
OR
At wills replenish stealth (while out of stealth)
At wills animation sped up, base damage boosted 10%.
OR
Can attack while moving, each consecutive hit speeds up animation speed.
OR
DEX increases attack speed for TR (dex is very meh right now)
I tried now several Builds against the monsters in Icewinddale.
The highest damage alone on the mediocre monster (Greater HE, Level 62, Three Bars or Greater) is about 12.000 DPS instead 25.000 DPS against a Test Dummy.
The Scoundrel-Build is pretty nice because of the survivability, the stun and the damage i get additional on stunned targets. Sadly it's the build with the lowest DPS, around 7.500. But if you are a bit clumsy and need a sturdy Rogue or your group needs a bit more CC i think it's a good Feat-Tree.
The Vorpal-Build looks broken in my eyes (and should be fixed). He lacks greatly of damage because all the nice bonuses i get only while i am stealthed but the Vorpal-Build itself doesn't really support stealth. I tried to get the feat that gloaming cut can restore my Stealth and then got the Vorpal-T5. It worked but the damage was about 10.000. Sometimes i had peaks about 18.000 DPS because of some effects of gloaming cut and sometimes i got only 7.500. (most of the kind i was beaten to death with this build, and i really have no clue how this feat tree could ever work)
The Saboteur-Build is also pretty nice but feels a bit slow (because of gloaming cut). I like the mechanic behind it to get in and out of stealth, refill a bit of my cooldowns because of the feats and some bonuses while stealth is well thought. Because of stealth and a bit of dodge it has a good survivability. The DPS is about 12.000 in live combat and was the easiest to handle, after some training i could kill 3 shamans and two of the smaller level 62 monsters.
I still think the damage should be tweaked a lot. Yesterday i saw again that one of my GWF Guildmates made again an 300.000 Instant Damage hit.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
I like new changes a lot, its nice to have our TR back in pve content.
Here is my Sabouteur TR on preview. http://youtu.be/tD2F4SiMI0E
I finished Totem of Auril, which I couldnt before.
I tried some heroic encounters like yeti or wolves,
I did fine, but run out of time ;/
I dont have enough dps or I just play my TR wrong
The video looks pretty cool, I might like sab, but I really don't want to be perma, there's nothing more boring that continuously use gloaming cut my enemies while they stand there doing nothing and just use encounters for refills. You don't do it most of the time though.
The problem is that even if you try to be a semi-stealth or offensive rogue you end up on the lower end of the DPS-Meter. Like i said before the Executioneer Path need a fix. And in my opinion the basic trickster rogue feat path needs it as well to enhance the damage a bit. At the current situation i see an improvement in the pathes (Playstyle, Damage, etc.) but it still needs improvement.For example the action point gaining feat seems still bugged, it gives me 0 additonal action points or action points gaining...
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
For example the action point gaining feat seems still bugged, it gives me 0 additonal action points or action points gaining...
It appears to be working for me. Using Path of the Blade at 0 AP and doing nothing else while it runs nets me 24% AP. With Tactics slotted, I get 28% instead.
Not sure if this is a bug or working as intended Vengeance Pursuit: 2nd part does not activate when there is no clear line of sight (like theres a wall in the way)
If it is WAI, i suggest that 2nd part of VP should be able to activate through walls. Pretty lame if all it takes to stop us in our pursuit of bloody vengeance on a target we're tracking is a wall right?
I am bothered by sab tree in that I can now remain perma stealth more easily than I ever (don't need ss, b&S, II or anything) just using gloaming and lashing (or whatever I want to use). Granted this is against a stationary target and I am not maximizing my full damage potential but still I am hitting over 10k dps with 74% from GC, 13% from Shadowy Oportunity, and 12% from Lashing blade. There was no in and out of stealth when done this way, it was just in stealth forever. I happen to detest gloaming cut and perma stealth so I am biased, but does this seem odd to anyone else considering the point of the stealth changes?
I am bothered by sab tree in that I can now remain perma stealth more easily than I ever (don't need ss, b&S, II or anything) just using gloaming and lashing (or whatever I want to use). Granted this is against a stationary target and I am not maximizing my full damage potential but still I am hitting over 10k dps with 74% from GC, 13% from Shadowy Oportunity, and 12% from Lashing blade. There was no in and out of stealth when done this way, it was just in stealth forever. I happen to detest gloaming cut and perma stealth so I am biased, but does this seem odd to anyone else considering the point of the stealth changes?
It's not Sab.
It's GC.
Try using anything other than GC and see if u can putup the damage while staying in stealth.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It isn't just GC alone as it is also Sab and even though I can posses perma in other paths I would still need the GC feats from Sab but I would also need SS or B&S where with Sab I don't even need them (do on live though) and can simply do it with GC + anything.
Its way too fast now by default. Virtually no one has time to react or dodge if its coming. The activation speed should have been decreased at most 25%. With how fast it activates now, you can just run to someone, activate it, stealth for a few instant crit at wills and a lashing blade and its over for majority of people. Its way too easy and cheap feeling.
Wicked Reminder: I dont really see a point in the stealthed variant. With the ability to input Wicked Reminder in rapid succesion upon a target. Using the stealthed variant is kind of pointless. It saves you an extra second at most. With the reduced number of stacks. It takes no time at all to reach 3. Using a stealthed encounter for something else would be much better utilized. I'd recommend having Wicked Reminder inflict Piercing damage from stealth to make it more inclined to choose to use the stealthed variant since the damage would go straight through any defense. The damage wouldnt be much and its not something that can be repeatedly applied in quick succession easily and successfully given its stealthed and the short reach, meaning a target can retaliate while its being used as you have to be really close to your target.
Razor Action:
It feels so lackluster still. The damage is so poor. I would suggest increasing the damage and making the damage inflicted by this cause a bleeding debuff that applies that damage over a period of time ( which would require probably reversing seething knives to instead apply up to 50% of its total damage instantly)
Vengence Pursuit:
As I mentioned before it is still bad. A poor encounter. Its a poor mans deft strike with a meh CC immunity. Its way too conditional to be worthwhile using when there are much more easier and reliable methods to use other than this. Something about this needs to change. I still would perfer the old version of this encounter, without the CC immunity but no cooldown (or even very low cooldown like Wicked Reminder). As it stands now its just not worth even using given its unreliable and very conditional to even use. To even use the CC immunity part of it, you have to be waiting for one to even be coming, which means you're paying more attention looking out for a CC to actually use that part of the skill than doing other things you should be doing, and thats if the dagger is still even in place. Many times the dagger is gone without you knowing and trying to activate the skill just has you trying the throw the dagger again (because you think the person you marked is still marked when they arent anymore) and you end up getting hit with the CC anyway, where you would have just been better off dodging over trying to use it in the first place. Its just too clunky and condition, has always been and seems it always will be ever since the change made to it.
Path of the Blade
With how useful its made that it now hits more targets and its longer. It helps quite alot in pve. However this will also be a very painful annoyance in pvp. And with at wills no longer draining stealth, this alone will I feel make TR's borderline overpowered.
Whirlwind of Blades:
Now that this ability no longer penetrates all defenses (which I feel is good now), it feels kind of weak now.
Disheartening Strike:
It feels back into a good place now.
Shadowy Opportunity:
I'll say right now, this needs a clear internal cooldown. This is going to be bad news. I can hear the crying right now already. This will be worse than what the HR's got. I actually think Peircing Damage is alright for HR's given they're default melee damage isnt that high. But TR's melee damage is already quite high, especially from stealth. I actually dont think this feat was such a good idea. I'd say a different sort of feat should go here. Piercing damage should go to stealthed wicked reminder, where the entirety of the damage is considered piercing damage. I dont know if I even feel comfortable having the damage from this lessened if its inclined to stay.
To put into perspective, this is with none o my feats specced. This was just testing the encounters themselves without nothing else affecting them. Going to put my seperate input after setting some feats, I'm still looking over them, and deciding which ones to apply to my character.
My overall assessment so far is that TR's are back powerful again, but they borderline dangerously close to being more powerful than the days of the one shot Lashing Blades and shocking executions. But could be much worse, as theres now multiple variables. And I rather these get straightened now than have a flood of nerfs coming and a trash load of threads calling for nerfs.
We really need to have a discussion thread for this thread. 90% of this thread is not feedback on the actual changes, but rather some people arguing endlessly with other people. It's not helpful for me to see what is being discussed and tried when I have to sift through three pages of debate for actual play experience and not theorycrafting or discussion over who's playing wrong or how someone doesn't like the way another player does things. I can't imagine it's helpful for the devs either.
I'll be honest. I've stopped reading this thread and only come in when I've had a chance to do testing on preview, because the arguing and debate makes it useless and tedious to go through. I've even reported posts in it because the arguing became extreme.
I came in to see if anyone had anything new, got through four pages working backwards from the most recent, and the first post I saw was someone telling someone else to chill out, and then the rest was, yeah, mostly arguments.
I'm disappointed in us.
So, some feedback on the feedback to the feedback:
- Not everyone is an elite player who's been playing since closed beta and has a 20k GS and five legendary artifacts. This is good, because the experiences of people who've been playing that long and have all that gear are distorted. I've been playing since Beta Weekend 3, but life, homelessness, illness, and the like have caused me to miss months worth of time, to where my main character created day 1 is only just now hitting 360 ardent coins. I've only got a 16.1k GS. And I recognize that my perspective is still distorted, because I have been playing so long, and I have reached a decent level of gearing.
- Not everyone is going to be a perfect player. People may suffer from latency due to bad internet, and while you can adapt to consistent latency, some people(including me) will not only have bad ping, they'll spike all over the map or waver between two high ranges. So people can have that. People can have eye-hand coordination issues, mobility issues, be new at the game, etc. Someone with consistent 30ms ping and no physical issues is going to do a lot better than someone spiking everywhere and having slow fingers. This is inarguable.
So, the thing is, the game needs to be playable for everyone. If the TR is only usable to any decent effect in PvE by a top-tier player, the TR is not where it needs to be. Johnny Q. Random does indeed need to learn how to play, but even a build that isn't perfect needs to at least be usable, and playable without perfect reflexes and timing.
The average queue group I get when I PUG skirmishes or even dungeons is generally 11-14k GS with the odd slumming 16-18k. It is made of people who haven't been told that Ice Storm is terrible in groups, that Sly Flourish is a bad at-will, that Knight's Valor is good, etc. They do not have a Perfect Vorpal like I do. They're wearing Rank 5 enchants, if that. They have blue and even green artifacts. They have mod 3 appearances and haven't been playing that long. If a class isn't useful and enjoyable until you hit a very high level of skill and gearing, how many of the newer casual players do you think are going to actually stick to it?
So yes, we need the newer players testing this, and we NEED their feedback.
This is not the time for elitism and 'Your playstayle is wrong'. If DF started and then stealthed in into a Lashing Blade or Wicked Reminder is an effective tactic in Mod 4 and earlier, then it was a good playstyle whether you personally liked it or not and people not finding an equivalent they like in the changes is fine, and important feedback.
If Johnny Q. Random makes a TR and finds he can't contribute in dungeons unless he's overgeared and using exactly the right rotation exactly the right way, he's not going to keep playing his TR when everyone tells him to go make a CW instead. He's going to go make that CW, or he's just going to quit because he doesn't want to play a CW, he wants to play his cool-looking TR he enjoys.
These people are the ones who are eventually going to become the game's top TRs... If we let them. If we don't drive them away telling them they don't know anything and can't contribute and can't possibly understand. If a newer, less geared player is having problems, maybe it's not just him. Maybe it's the class. That needs to be listened to, and looked at. By the devs, not us, because yelling someone down or telling them they're doing it wrong because you don't like their opinion or what they find enjoyable helps absolutely no one.
Having logeed into the preview to test the TR - must say very disappointed to find that my build along the Executioner tree has been removed all together. The Paragon path feat to support my main at-will (Duelist's Flurry) is no longer included. To top it off, it has taken me many dedicated hours to earn all components to get the right artifact weapon to support this at-will (Horn of the Golden Dragon), not to mention all of the hard earned currency and time to level it up.
I find it very hard to believe that you have had so many OP complaints regarding this at-will with the complimenting artifact weapon that you chose to remove it from the feat tree. Artifact weapons are very new. No free respec can replace the time and dedication taken to build this TR, which is much more difficult to play correctly than my GWF - something that is more rewarding when it all comes together.
It would seem that non perma stealth TR's (like mine and other friends) are getting hit very hard too and would like you to reconsider removal of Duelist's Flurry from the Executioner Paragon path.
Also, combat rolls and stealth bar reduction show no buff in preview, no observable increase in Disheartening Strike buff either - though these new changes would seem to have dealt a very commited player the biggest disheartening strike of all.
The tree not my kind. The hop in stealth for a sec, encounter restealth, encounter etc is meh ... too annoying. The stealth mechanic died for me, its like a First Strike passive without a skill slot. I guess most of the new rouges wont really use it
Feedback Scoundrel:
Still like it. Tho the only reason for this tree is the "random" daze. Life steal and deflect bonus from feats still too low. Didnt even noticed it when changed to Executioner.
Should have a longer time duration smoke bomb option on 1 of its daze feats
The damage is ok (as its a tank build), but need a little more deflect/life steal bonus(as its a tank build)
Feedback Executioner:
The concept is good as i said before.
Feedback Whisperknife:
Still have lower dps than MI. Should have more CoS (12 was before ?) and a little higher bonus from Dagger Threat
Retested WK Scoudrel with a 10pt dip into Exe for Arterial Cut and Vengeful Pursuit. Also watched my rotations more closely. Got a noticeable increase to DPS which helped make combat smoother. Did the Drake Pen lair and a few of the minor HEs in WoD with little trouble and had a bunch of fun. Tried the Cult Patrol minor HE and got annihilated. The Drake Rider is too tough to take down fast as Scoundrel and that gives too much time for the reinforcements to show up. Without easy access to stealth I got mobbed and died hard. That was the only time I really felt a lack of survivability options though.
stealth continue to feel luckster and without any tools to naturally refill it i dont even feel the need to use it.
When in stealth i have basically two option:
throw 3 arlt will hitting for 10k
Or
Using an encounter
After this bye stealth virtually forever if i keep in combat.
In the best scenario stealth uptime is less than 5 per cent leading tree like executioner to basically play with no feats (they pretty much work in stealth)
This is not just an executioner problem.
All the path required pretty much to slot shadow strike losing one encounter slot.
Stealth as now is just a crappy tab.
If at will drains it why they cant refill it out of stealth????
The overall best path is saboteur. It has nothing wrong but shadow strike proccing one with the shadows which is an utterly no sense.
Scoundrel feels fun but needs way more deflect and way more life steal.
That feat around 10 deflect under 30 per cent HP makes no sense at all: as a TR you either survive or get 1shotted.
Over all what i hate is that stealth is less than a side disc in TR dinner. A side disc that you only consume once every meal without slotting shadow strike. I would like to see gwf using shadow-unstoppable or their unstoppable bar depleting upon taking damage and dealing damage. Would be fair right?
I cant say the job isnt good but something is stealth need to be revised.
Base time prolonged, bar steady refilling upon dealing damage.
Retested WK Scoudrel with a 10pt dip into Exe for Arterial Cut and Vengeful Pursuit. Also watched my rotations more closely. Got a noticeable increase to DPS which helped make combat smoother. Did the Drake Pen lair and a few of the minor HEs in WoD with little trouble and had a bunch of fun. Tried the Cult Patrol minor HE and got annihilated. The Drake Rider is too tough to take down fast as Scoundrel and that gives too much time for the reinforcements to show up. Without easy access to stealth I got mobbed and died hard. That was the only time I really felt a lack of survivability options though.
Overall I think Scoundrel is just about there.
That's the build I'm currently running. My only complaint with it is soloing some of the lair bosses (Jail warden in particular). Scoundrel/Scoundrel hybrid can keep up with mobs and multiple HDs' worth of creatures, but when adds spawn mid-fight, disrupting your stun rotation, then you're toast. (usually only a problem when trying to burn a 9+HD boss or mini-boss. scoundrel needs to clear and drop, not stay soloing)
Ok. Again, disclosing hard-learned stuff for the sake of the community. My recommendation for those who have trouble with surviving and fighting with Scoundrel, particularly with a melee/MI build, try this setup out.
■ stealth about to run out → Dazing Strike (wide arc) → PotB
I can already hear some of you thinking to yourselves, "Is this it? Just using DS with the pathetic damage PotB, this is supposed to give us great results?"... and I will say on to you who might think so, "yeah, it does".
When you think about it, it is incredibly simple in theory.
(1) You use the wide-arc stealth-Dazing Strike to hit as many mobs as you can with one hit
(2) All of the mobs hit are afflicted with Skull Cracker
(3) Among those mobs, three of them will be hit with PotB attacks, and the daze duration is extended by +2s
In other words, so long as you have Skull Cracker ready, at any given time three of the mobs are totally neutralized as you leave out of stealth. Most mob groups are what... 4? 5 at most?
It is at this moment that I've learned that despite the nerf PotB is extremely useful.. and in some sense the 3-target activation is a buff that greatly outweighs the decrease in damage -- at least for Scoundrels it is.
PotB is a power -- due to its auto-attack and passive nature -- that does not proc anything. It doesn't proc Skull Cracker, doesn't proc One With the Shadows, doesn't proc Return to Shadows... nothing. But it is still an attack, therefore a target hit with PotB receives the same [+0.5s daze duration increase per attack] as any other attack.
And once that happens, PotB attacks then benefit from:
(1) 25% damage increase from Low Blows
(2) another 25% damage increase from Skull Cracker
If the old PotB was "100" in damage, the new PotB is "33", Skull Cracker+Lowblows applied it is "49.5".
Now, why is this important? Why does something that seems so simple make that much of a difference? Because the main component of damage when I use a WK/Scoundrel against 3~4 "hard/strong" HE level mobs, is Disheartening Strike. The application of this strong DoT power, combined with all-ranged tactics, gives me enough time to constantly and steadily deal damage against such strong targets while I'm also concentrating on self-defense.
Why do some people seem unable to get good results with Scoundrel? These are the reasons:
When people try the Scoundrel, they usually try it with melee-oriented MI paragon builds
When they choose powers, they don't really test different combinations out. They just instinctively choose damage over utility, and as a result miss out on a lot of possibilities just waiting for to be discovered
MIs don't have a powerful DoT attack like the WK, which constantly deals damage against multiple targets
This means, in order to deal damage, they can only attack one at a time. No matter how powerful at-wills like GC is, it is always against only one target at a given time.
This also means that when dealing damage they are forced in a situation where they cannot take any defensive action
If they take defensive action, they have no damage going in while they are busy moving around and dodging
...you get the picture.
When you come to face POWERFUL mob groups like the strong-grade Wight types or etc etc.. in IWD, and 3~5 of them at a given time, what happens with melee/MI Scoundrels is that they can't one-shot the POWERFUL mobs no matter how strong their melee attack is, and since those mobs have very strong damage you can't stay at one place free-dealing. The more you move around the less damage you do, and every time your SS is in cooldown you just feel like a walking punch-bag. If you switch around to all-defensive encounters like Smokebomb or BnS for more stealth, then you lose even more damage.
This is the problem the players who complain about the Scoundrel faces.
The only way for a Scoundrel to rememdy a situation like this is by using the weapons he's got to its max potential. I come across a few Scoundrels in the preview from time to time and I still observe many cases where those players just do not know how the Skull Cracker mechanic works, blows away 2 precious seconds of extra daze, does not know how to plant Concussive Strikes for extra damage from Low Blows, etc etc... and this is one of the reasons I was frustrated in the other post. Not many people really know how the Scoundrel mechanics work. No, I mean really.
As soon as my vids are uploaded to Youtube, I will post links of how I fight with a melee/MI Scoundrel in PvE... and no, I'm not 20k GS. I've recently reached 17k GS, have under 5k power, my HP does not exceed 40k, and I don't have one of those endless-healing Black Ice gear, and in almost all of the vids I've not once used a healing potion.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
New "TR Scoundrel Survivor Class"
*2.5% more Deflect Chance; 2.5% more Lifesteal; When your HP is below 30% you gain 10% increased deflect chance; You gain 10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth,...*
Unsure if this new tanky TR class can be good as it sounds, because:
1. Poor stealth bar is weaker (what to deflect now in stealth when it will burn in 2 seconds?)
2. ITC skill is ruined
3. Only 2.5% Lifesteal versus "Executioner TR" or Warlock in PVP? Or against new spawned creatures in the middle of the fight? - It's better to have "When your HP is below 50% you gain 14% increased deflect chance, and your lifesteal rise for 2%"
- Instead to make "You gain 10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth" cryptic should make passive feat:"You gain 5% deflect chance and you are able to deflect multiple targets (up to 12 mobs in PVE, and versus 2 players in PVP).
If you call it "Survivor" make it a Survivor then. Make other TR players proud. And finaly TR will be wanted class for dungeons.
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
Suggestion: Bait and Switch (@Gentleman Crush) It would be nice ice bait and switch could be used while under CC (control effects).
Using bait and switch under control effects would leave our clone in the control effect but we will roll away with a 2 second immunity.
Feedback: Bait and Switch
In its current state, bait and switch is not very effective in pvp and pve. Please consider the above change. (It will be similar to gwf unstoppable mechanic for tr, but to allow them to escape CC instead of tank damage) Thanks!
Added Notes with functionality listed: Bait and switch This feat will not be usable while prone and the 2 second immunity will be in place just to make sure our characters can actually roll out of the CC skill being cast on them.
Also I would like it if bait and switch made us teleport back like CW teleport looks, but we appear back with an inky shadowy warp similar to ITC's design image.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Can other paths be faster? Of course. Nobody is denying that. But can Scoundrel be managed within reasonable bounds of performance? You watch, you decide.
No dangers of death, no use of healing pots, no super-technique, just easy and intuitive use of attacks.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I seem to have tracked it down to the fact that it mostly happens when at some point certain AoE encounters are activated. I did see it happening with single-target encounters but it is very rare, but with AoE encounters of PotB and Smoke Bomb, it happens frequently. Didn't see it happening with Blitz, though.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I put screens from ATC, both vs dummy and pve encounter.
First thoughs:
*Sabouter is way to go, its easier and more fun to play, great for solo PVE
*Executioner has higher theoretical damage, but lacks survivalability, might be better in group PVE
Especialy if we use first strike, which I didnt.
Other stuff I noticed:
Path of blade doesnt work with one with the shadow feat.
It does proc Swashbuckling Captain Set bonus, but only on first tick.
Shadow Strike consumes one with the shadow which is just stupid
Action Advantage feat seems to be bugged. It doesnt show any extra AP in character sheet.
I did some testing (2-3 times each). Respec my char and hit dummy with or without Action Advantage,
I had summonned companion, to get combat advantage all the time. The results are:
~140 hits of sly flourish w/o AA to get full AP bar
~135 hits of sly flourish with AA ro get full AP bar
The feat is useless as it is now, because the difference is very small.
Disciple of Strenght doesnt show any bonus at all in character sheet.
Didnt test if it works or not.
While runing out of heroic encounter mobs were following me for much longer than on live server.
e.g. from totem of Aurill next to Mother Lode, untill I crossed the road.
Improved cunning is useless in PVE. Id like to see changes like extra seconds instead of %.
It will give builds based on stealth better survivalability.
All stealth nerf are because or PVP, I dont mind to see more changes whith different pvp/pve affect.
I know it could be implemented, we have PVP boons and HR shift mechanic, so please DEVS make it happen.
Duelists Flurry - while in stealth the third chain attack should count as one attack.
I can only hit two times while in stealth, but I cannot now stealth attack only third part of DF sequence
(pressing steath after 2nd strike, it doesnt last long enough to finish 3rd attack chain ;/)
It leave TR in open, making this power less and less usefull.
Another option will be to improve resistance/deflect chance while in 3rd strike chain animation.
I see huge difference how TRs are dealing damage now. It used to be based on our at-wills. Now we use encounters in stealth and gloaming cut. When we run out of stealth duelists flurry is still good option. Because off all this our main atribute DEX is much less effective. Most of our damage comes from encounters while stealth which gives 100% crit.
I see two options:
Make DEX our damage ability
Change stealth to 50% extra crit chance, but make it stack (adding up) with our gear/other feats etc.
Still the worst enemy TR has is AOE spells/attacks, it drains stealth very quick leave us in open,
even with hight deflect and defense it is hard to stay alive.
While for other pve classess high life steal is enough to keep them alive, most of them just stay in range
TR needs a bit more, because we need to get into melee and we lacks protection like GF or GWF
(GWF have difficulties in staying alive in mod5 content anyway).
I'd like too seee some changes for at-wills while not in stealth, or just few seconds after we leave stealth.
Like extra % of deflect as a feat instead of T1 Roll with Punches which has too low % to make a difference
or just improve some at-will which are unused now (sly flourish, maybe duelists flurry).
It could have stack while attacking with chosen at wills, e.g. sly flourish and/or duelists flurry.
QUESTIONS:
Cunning Ambusher stacks, is it WAI?
How do Gutterborns Touch and Exposed weakness work?
Is it the same as high prophet set, plaguefire, high vizier, etc?
So it is just extra % of damage while I reached capp of 24% in PVE?
Comments
For me, i tested several builds now on the Preview Server and get my DPS to 22.000-24.000. On the Live Server i have now ~15.000 DPS. For me it's a great DPS increase and on the Live Server i am the one that is dying the least because i can dodge, and dodge makes me immun to anything and i don't have the feeling that ITC is "nerfed" too much.
The only thing i didn't tested was the Wisperknife Path...
How about a defensesive buff that specificifically targets aoe damage. It fits in line with existing rogue history with evasion. It would also help a lot with primary pve bane for tr (boss doing a giant free circle)
You could even call the feat evasion.
The main issue for me is not the lower DPS but more the lack of survivability. While the Scoundrel has tools that are very useful against single targets, against larger groups of strong mobs the inability to enter stealth as frequently combined with the lower incoming LS heals means lower survivability and opportunity to remain on target and dealing damage.
There is no doubt that overall (for PvE at least) the Sab path is significantly superior to both Scoundrel and Executioner.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I'll start filming the same HEs played through with both a MI/melee Scoundrel, and a WK/ranged Scoundrel. In turn, in all friendly spirit and for the sake of sharing information to help provide better information to our fellow TR players, I would like to humbly request if I could see how you are faring with the Sab build in those same HEs in form of video recording - if possible.
I know it is a lot to ask, but it would be meaningful just what level of performance/clear time/ease of combat you consider to be so much 'significantly superior' over the Scoundrel, if we can visually compare just how much we're doing, side-by-side... and to see if the Scoundrel method I am using can match it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I have tested Saboteur, Scroundel and Exectioner with Master Infiltrator. The main problem is stealth (obviously). Devolopers said that they want to limit perma-stealth. So the first modification is "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack". By this change, stealth with TR is useless. Infact although I have a complete profound set (+30% stealth) and improved cunning sneak (+20%), the real duration of stealth, in combat, is by roughly 1-2 second using at-will power. Thus any player cannot use stealth with at will power. I suggest 2 adjustment:
1) increase the recharge time of the encounter powers that grant stealth (bait and switch and shadow strike), erasing the "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack", or (not both) ,
2) to extend the application of tenacious concealment also to the damage the player deals in combat (now it is applied only to the damage the player receives), manteining the "Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack".
With reference to feats:
a) Sobouter: is totally useless. There is not sufficient stealth to allow a balancing combat in stealth. ;
b) Executioner: stealth is used only to have a more powerful attack, but if you are not able to kill your enemy with one shot...
c) Scroundel: is interesting, because is a path based on daze and more survivability. I think is the only playable feat.
I hope I was helpful to improve the system.
Well on the target dummy this feat works, but out in the world it does not. I had stealthed and used dazing strike on a dire polar bear at full hp and did a 30k crit. I then lowered his hp to near death and restealthed and did another dazing strike for another 30k crit. It seems last moments is not working as it states.
Sab has excellent damage and if you slot SS you will be in and out of stealth quite alot, my only concern with using SS is i hate how it procs "one with the shadows" which defeats the purpose. Out of stealth damage on Sab could be be a little on the low side but hopefully if at-wills get a small boost this will fix this.
Scound i first thought was really boring to play but after giving it more testing it is actually really quite fun. Again, you need to slot SS to be able to combine the stealth crit bonus with the skullcracker to stack some nice damage. Also i dont understand why people say the other two paths get better lifesteal, on scound there are few mobs in IWD that actually drain me below 80% and im only 14k GS. You just need to make sure you chain your stuns together properly and not waste our now powerful dazing strike on an already dazed target.
Exec probably the least interesting of the three but huuuuge damage potential even with lower GS like mine (14k). This is the assassin class, always use lashing from stealth followed up by as much damage as you can then in 6 seconds that piercing bomb goes off for 50% of all the damage you just did. Once again, slot SS to get the most out of this path.
Survivability: Dodge rolls and in and out of stealth are our 'tank'. Dodge rolls are still not working right, but when they do there is definatly the option of specing into the dodge roll feats for extra stealth and faster stam recovery. When you play any of these paths you MUST dodge roll. Dont just stand there like all the other sheep cookie cutter classes playing this game. TR is the funnest class because we must stay mobile and be utilizing stealth to add to our survivability. (and it looks cool and pisses GWF off in pvp)
Also: has anyone noticed master infiltrator is giving more than 15% run speed boost?
So to me the icing on our new TR cake would be:
At wills drain 7.5% stealth
OR
At wills replenish stealth (while out of stealth)
At wills animation sped up, base damage boosted 10%.
OR
Can attack while moving, each consecutive hit speeds up animation speed.
OR
DEX increases attack speed for TR (dex is very meh right now)
The highest damage alone on the mediocre monster (Greater HE, Level 62, Three Bars or Greater) is about 12.000 DPS instead 25.000 DPS against a Test Dummy.
The Scoundrel-Build is pretty nice because of the survivability, the stun and the damage i get additional on stunned targets. Sadly it's the build with the lowest DPS, around 7.500. But if you are a bit clumsy and need a sturdy Rogue or your group needs a bit more CC i think it's a good Feat-Tree.
The Vorpal-Build looks broken in my eyes (and should be fixed). He lacks greatly of damage because all the nice bonuses i get only while i am stealthed but the Vorpal-Build itself doesn't really support stealth. I tried to get the feat that gloaming cut can restore my Stealth and then got the Vorpal-T5. It worked but the damage was about 10.000. Sometimes i had peaks about 18.000 DPS because of some effects of gloaming cut and sometimes i got only 7.500. (most of the kind i was beaten to death with this build, and i really have no clue how this feat tree could ever work)
The Saboteur-Build is also pretty nice but feels a bit slow (because of gloaming cut). I like the mechanic behind it to get in and out of stealth, refill a bit of my cooldowns because of the feats and some bonuses while stealth is well thought. Because of stealth and a bit of dodge it has a good survivability. The DPS is about 12.000 in live combat and was the easiest to handle, after some training i could kill 3 shamans and two of the smaller level 62 monsters.
I still think the damage should be tweaked a lot. Yesterday i saw again that one of my GWF Guildmates made again an 300.000 Instant Damage hit.
Here is my Sabouteur TR on preview.
http://youtu.be/tD2F4SiMI0E
I finished Totem of Auril, which I couldnt before.
I tried some heroic encounters like yeti or wolves,
I did fine, but run out of time ;/
I dont have enough dps or I just play my TR wrong
The problem is that even if you try to be a semi-stealth or offensive rogue you end up on the lower end of the DPS-Meter. Like i said before the Executioneer Path need a fix. And in my opinion the basic trickster rogue feat path needs it as well to enhance the damage a bit. At the current situation i see an improvement in the pathes (Playstyle, Damage, etc.) but it still needs improvement. For example the action point gaining feat seems still bugged, it gives me 0 additonal action points or action points gaining...
It appears to be working for me. Using Path of the Blade at 0 AP and doing nothing else while it runs nets me 24% AP. With Tactics slotted, I get 28% instead.
Vengeance Pursuit: 2nd part does not activate when there is no clear line of sight (like theres a wall in the way)
If it is WAI, i suggest that 2nd part of VP should be able to activate through walls. Pretty lame if all it takes to stop us in our pursuit of bloody vengeance on a target we're tracking is a wall right?
Butters TR PVP
It's not Sab.
It's GC.
Try using anything other than GC and see if u can putup the damage while staying in stealth.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
No run speed bonus at all.
Feedback:
Dazing Strike:
Its way too fast now by default. Virtually no one has time to react or dodge if its coming. The activation speed should have been decreased at most 25%. With how fast it activates now, you can just run to someone, activate it, stealth for a few instant crit at wills and a lashing blade and its over for majority of people. Its way too easy and cheap feeling.
Wicked Reminder:
I dont really see a point in the stealthed variant. With the ability to input Wicked Reminder in rapid succesion upon a target. Using the stealthed variant is kind of pointless. It saves you an extra second at most. With the reduced number of stacks. It takes no time at all to reach 3. Using a stealthed encounter for something else would be much better utilized. I'd recommend having Wicked Reminder inflict Piercing damage from stealth to make it more inclined to choose to use the stealthed variant since the damage would go straight through any defense. The damage wouldnt be much and its not something that can be repeatedly applied in quick succession easily and successfully given its stealthed and the short reach, meaning a target can retaliate while its being used as you have to be really close to your target.
Razor Action:
It feels so lackluster still. The damage is so poor. I would suggest increasing the damage and making the damage inflicted by this cause a bleeding debuff that applies that damage over a period of time ( which would require probably reversing seething knives to instead apply up to 50% of its total damage instantly)
Vengence Pursuit:
As I mentioned before it is still bad. A poor encounter. Its a poor mans deft strike with a meh CC immunity. Its way too conditional to be worthwhile using when there are much more easier and reliable methods to use other than this. Something about this needs to change. I still would perfer the old version of this encounter, without the CC immunity but no cooldown (or even very low cooldown like Wicked Reminder). As it stands now its just not worth even using given its unreliable and very conditional to even use. To even use the CC immunity part of it, you have to be waiting for one to even be coming, which means you're paying more attention looking out for a CC to actually use that part of the skill than doing other things you should be doing, and thats if the dagger is still even in place. Many times the dagger is gone without you knowing and trying to activate the skill just has you trying the throw the dagger again (because you think the person you marked is still marked when they arent anymore) and you end up getting hit with the CC anyway, where you would have just been better off dodging over trying to use it in the first place. Its just too clunky and condition, has always been and seems it always will be ever since the change made to it.
Path of the Blade
With how useful its made that it now hits more targets and its longer. It helps quite alot in pve. However this will also be a very painful annoyance in pvp. And with at wills no longer draining stealth, this alone will I feel make TR's borderline overpowered.
Whirlwind of Blades:
Now that this ability no longer penetrates all defenses (which I feel is good now), it feels kind of weak now.
Disheartening Strike:
It feels back into a good place now.
Shadowy Opportunity:
I'll say right now, this needs a clear internal cooldown. This is going to be bad news. I can hear the crying right now already. This will be worse than what the HR's got. I actually think Peircing Damage is alright for HR's given they're default melee damage isnt that high. But TR's melee damage is already quite high, especially from stealth. I actually dont think this feat was such a good idea. I'd say a different sort of feat should go here. Piercing damage should go to stealthed wicked reminder, where the entirety of the damage is considered piercing damage. I dont know if I even feel comfortable having the damage from this lessened if its inclined to stay.
To put into perspective, this is with none o my feats specced. This was just testing the encounters themselves without nothing else affecting them. Going to put my seperate input after setting some feats, I'm still looking over them, and deciding which ones to apply to my character.
My overall assessment so far is that TR's are back powerful again, but they borderline dangerously close to being more powerful than the days of the one shot Lashing Blades and shocking executions. But could be much worse, as theres now multiple variables. And I rather these get straightened now than have a flood of nerfs coming and a trash load of threads calling for nerfs.
I'll be honest. I've stopped reading this thread and only come in when I've had a chance to do testing on preview, because the arguing and debate makes it useless and tedious to go through. I've even reported posts in it because the arguing became extreme.
I came in to see if anyone had anything new, got through four pages working backwards from the most recent, and the first post I saw was someone telling someone else to chill out, and then the rest was, yeah, mostly arguments.
I'm disappointed in us.
So, some feedback on the feedback to the feedback:
- Not everyone is an elite player who's been playing since closed beta and has a 20k GS and five legendary artifacts. This is good, because the experiences of people who've been playing that long and have all that gear are distorted. I've been playing since Beta Weekend 3, but life, homelessness, illness, and the like have caused me to miss months worth of time, to where my main character created day 1 is only just now hitting 360 ardent coins. I've only got a 16.1k GS. And I recognize that my perspective is still distorted, because I have been playing so long, and I have reached a decent level of gearing.
- Not everyone is going to be a perfect player. People may suffer from latency due to bad internet, and while you can adapt to consistent latency, some people(including me) will not only have bad ping, they'll spike all over the map or waver between two high ranges. So people can have that. People can have eye-hand coordination issues, mobility issues, be new at the game, etc. Someone with consistent 30ms ping and no physical issues is going to do a lot better than someone spiking everywhere and having slow fingers. This is inarguable.
So, the thing is, the game needs to be playable for everyone. If the TR is only usable to any decent effect in PvE by a top-tier player, the TR is not where it needs to be. Johnny Q. Random does indeed need to learn how to play, but even a build that isn't perfect needs to at least be usable, and playable without perfect reflexes and timing.
The average queue group I get when I PUG skirmishes or even dungeons is generally 11-14k GS with the odd slumming 16-18k. It is made of people who haven't been told that Ice Storm is terrible in groups, that Sly Flourish is a bad at-will, that Knight's Valor is good, etc. They do not have a Perfect Vorpal like I do. They're wearing Rank 5 enchants, if that. They have blue and even green artifacts. They have mod 3 appearances and haven't been playing that long. If a class isn't useful and enjoyable until you hit a very high level of skill and gearing, how many of the newer casual players do you think are going to actually stick to it?
So yes, we need the newer players testing this, and we NEED their feedback.
This is not the time for elitism and 'Your playstayle is wrong'. If DF started and then stealthed in into a Lashing Blade or Wicked Reminder is an effective tactic in Mod 4 and earlier, then it was a good playstyle whether you personally liked it or not and people not finding an equivalent they like in the changes is fine, and important feedback.
If Johnny Q. Random makes a TR and finds he can't contribute in dungeons unless he's overgeared and using exactly the right rotation exactly the right way, he's not going to keep playing his TR when everyone tells him to go make a CW instead. He's going to go make that CW, or he's just going to quit because he doesn't want to play a CW, he wants to play his cool-looking TR he enjoys.
These people are the ones who are eventually going to become the game's top TRs... If we let them. If we don't drive them away telling them they don't know anything and can't contribute and can't possibly understand. If a newer, less geared player is having problems, maybe it's not just him. Maybe it's the class. That needs to be listened to, and looked at. By the devs, not us, because yelling someone down or telling them they're doing it wrong because you don't like their opinion or what they find enjoyable helps absolutely no one.
Having logeed into the preview to test the TR - must say very disappointed to find that my build along the Executioner tree has been removed all together. The Paragon path feat to support my main at-will (Duelist's Flurry) is no longer included. To top it off, it has taken me many dedicated hours to earn all components to get the right artifact weapon to support this at-will (Horn of the Golden Dragon), not to mention all of the hard earned currency and time to level it up.
I find it very hard to believe that you have had so many OP complaints regarding this at-will with the complimenting artifact weapon that you chose to remove it from the feat tree. Artifact weapons are very new. No free respec can replace the time and dedication taken to build this TR, which is much more difficult to play correctly than my GWF - something that is more rewarding when it all comes together.
It would seem that non perma stealth TR's (like mine and other friends) are getting hit very hard too and would like you to reconsider removal of Duelist's Flurry from the Executioner Paragon path.
Also, combat rolls and stealth bar reduction show no buff in preview, no observable increase in Disheartening Strike buff either - though these new changes would seem to have dealt a very commited player the biggest disheartening strike of all.
Kind regards
Simon
Feedback Sabotour:
The tree not my kind. The hop in stealth for a sec, encounter restealth, encounter etc is meh ... too annoying. The stealth mechanic died for me, its like a First Strike passive without a skill slot. I guess most of the new rouges wont really use it
Feedback Scoundrel:
Still like it. Tho the only reason for this tree is the "random" daze. Life steal and deflect bonus from feats still too low. Didnt even noticed it when changed to Executioner.
Should have a longer time duration smoke bomb option on 1 of its daze feats
The damage is ok (as its a tank build), but need a little more deflect/life steal bonus(as its a tank build)
Feedback Executioner:
The concept is good as i said before.
Feedback Whisperknife:
Still have lower dps than MI. Should have more CoS (12 was before ?) and a little higher bonus from Dagger Threat
Retested WK Scoudrel with a 10pt dip into Exe for Arterial Cut and Vengeful Pursuit. Also watched my rotations more closely. Got a noticeable increase to DPS which helped make combat smoother. Did the Drake Pen lair and a few of the minor HEs in WoD with little trouble and had a bunch of fun. Tried the Cult Patrol minor HE and got annihilated. The Drake Rider is too tough to take down fast as Scoundrel and that gives too much time for the reinforcements to show up. Without easy access to stealth I got mobbed and died hard. That was the only time I really felt a lack of survivability options though.
Overall I think Scoundrel is just about there.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
When in stealth i have basically two option:
throw 3 arlt will hitting for 10k
Or
Using an encounter
After this bye stealth virtually forever if i keep in combat.
In the best scenario stealth uptime is less than 5 per cent leading tree like executioner to basically play with no feats (they pretty much work in stealth)
This is not just an executioner problem.
All the path required pretty much to slot shadow strike losing one encounter slot.
Stealth as now is just a crappy tab.
If at will drains it why they cant refill it out of stealth????
The overall best path is saboteur. It has nothing wrong but shadow strike proccing one with the shadows which is an utterly no sense.
Scoundrel feels fun but needs way more deflect and way more life steal.
That feat around 10 deflect under 30 per cent HP makes no sense at all: as a TR you either survive or get 1shotted.
Over all what i hate is that stealth is less than a side disc in TR dinner. A side disc that you only consume once every meal without slotting shadow strike. I would like to see gwf using shadow-unstoppable or their unstoppable bar depleting upon taking damage and dealing damage. Would be fair right?
I cant say the job isnt good but something is stealth need to be revised.
Base time prolonged, bar steady refilling upon dealing damage.
That's the build I'm currently running. My only complaint with it is soloing some of the lair bosses (Jail warden in particular). Scoundrel/Scoundrel hybrid can keep up with mobs and multiple HDs' worth of creatures, but when adds spawn mid-fight, disrupting your stun rotation, then you're toast. (usually only a problem when trying to burn a 9+HD boss or mini-boss. scoundrel needs to clear and drop, not stay soloing)
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
■ stealth about to run out → Dazing Strike (wide arc) → PotB
I can already hear some of you thinking to yourselves, "Is this it? Just using DS with the pathetic damage PotB, this is supposed to give us great results?"... and I will say on to you who might think so, "yeah, it does".
When you think about it, it is incredibly simple in theory.
(1) You use the wide-arc stealth-Dazing Strike to hit as many mobs as you can with one hit
(2) All of the mobs hit are afflicted with Skull Cracker
(3) Among those mobs, three of them will be hit with PotB attacks, and the daze duration is extended by +2s
In other words, so long as you have Skull Cracker ready, at any given time three of the mobs are totally neutralized as you leave out of stealth. Most mob groups are what... 4? 5 at most?
It is at this moment that I've learned that despite the nerf PotB is extremely useful.. and in some sense the 3-target activation is a buff that greatly outweighs the decrease in damage -- at least for Scoundrels it is.
PotB is a power -- due to its auto-attack and passive nature -- that does not proc anything. It doesn't proc Skull Cracker, doesn't proc One With the Shadows, doesn't proc Return to Shadows... nothing. But it is still an attack, therefore a target hit with PotB receives the same [+0.5s daze duration increase per attack] as any other attack.
And once that happens, PotB attacks then benefit from:
(1) 25% damage increase from Low Blows
(2) another 25% damage increase from Skull Cracker
If the old PotB was "100" in damage, the new PotB is "33", Skull Cracker+Lowblows applied it is "49.5".
Now, why is this important? Why does something that seems so simple make that much of a difference? Because the main component of damage when I use a WK/Scoundrel against 3~4 "hard/strong" HE level mobs, is Disheartening Strike. The application of this strong DoT power, combined with all-ranged tactics, gives me enough time to constantly and steadily deal damage against such strong targets while I'm also concentrating on self-defense.
Why do some people seem unable to get good results with Scoundrel? These are the reasons:
When people try the Scoundrel, they usually try it with melee-oriented MI paragon builds
When they choose powers, they don't really test different combinations out. They just instinctively choose damage over utility, and as a result miss out on a lot of possibilities just waiting for to be discovered
MIs don't have a powerful DoT attack like the WK, which constantly deals damage against multiple targets
This means, in order to deal damage, they can only attack one at a time. No matter how powerful at-wills like GC is, it is always against only one target at a given time.
This also means that when dealing damage they are forced in a situation where they cannot take any defensive action
If they take defensive action, they have no damage going in while they are busy moving around and dodging
...you get the picture.
When you come to face POWERFUL mob groups like the strong-grade Wight types or etc etc.. in IWD, and 3~5 of them at a given time, what happens with melee/MI Scoundrels is that they can't one-shot the POWERFUL mobs no matter how strong their melee attack is, and since those mobs have very strong damage you can't stay at one place free-dealing. The more you move around the less damage you do, and every time your SS is in cooldown you just feel like a walking punch-bag. If you switch around to all-defensive encounters like Smokebomb or BnS for more stealth, then you lose even more damage.
This is the problem the players who complain about the Scoundrel faces.
The only way for a Scoundrel to rememdy a situation like this is by using the weapons he's got to its max potential. I come across a few Scoundrels in the preview from time to time and I still observe many cases where those players just do not know how the Skull Cracker mechanic works, blows away 2 precious seconds of extra daze, does not know how to plant Concussive Strikes for extra damage from Low Blows, etc etc... and this is one of the reasons I was frustrated in the other post. Not many people really know how the Scoundrel mechanics work. No, I mean really.
As soon as my vids are uploaded to Youtube, I will post links of how I fight with a melee/MI Scoundrel in PvE... and no, I'm not 20k GS. I've recently reached 17k GS, have under 5k power, my HP does not exceed 40k, and I don't have one of those endless-healing Black Ice gear, and in almost all of the vids I've not once used a healing potion.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
*2.5% more Deflect Chance; 2.5% more Lifesteal; When your HP is below 30% you gain 10% increased deflect chance; You gain 10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth,...*
Unsure if this new tanky TR class can be good as it sounds, because:
1. Poor stealth bar is weaker (what to deflect now in stealth when it will burn in 2 seconds?)
2. ITC skill is ruined
3. Only 2.5% Lifesteal versus "Executioner TR" or Warlock in PVP? Or against new spawned creatures in the middle of the fight?
- It's better to have "When your HP is below 50% you gain 14% increased deflect chance, and your lifesteal rise for 2%"
- Instead to make "You gain 10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth" cryptic should make passive feat:"You gain 5% deflect chance and you are able to deflect multiple targets (up to 12 mobs in PVE, and versus 2 players in PVP).
If you call it "Survivor" make it a Survivor then. Make other TR players proud. And finaly TR will be wanted class for dungeons.
It would be nice ice bait and switch could be used while under CC (control effects).
Using bait and switch under control effects would leave our clone in the control effect but we will roll away with a 2 second immunity.
Feedback: Bait and Switch
In its current state, bait and switch is not very effective in pvp and pve. Please consider the above change. (It will be similar to gwf unstoppable mechanic for tr, but to allow them to escape CC instead of tank damage) Thanks!
Added Notes with functionality listed: Bait and switch
This feat will not be usable while prone and the 2 second immunity will be in place just to make sure our characters can actually roll out of the CC skill being cast on them.
Also I would like it if bait and switch made us teleport back like CW teleport looks, but we appear back with an inky shadowy warp similar to ITC's design image.
■ Merchant in Distress: http://youtu.be/IwZTLUYr4Yc
■ Marauding Barbarians: http://youtu.be/DStv2_qq7cM
■ Yeti Rampage: http://youtu.be/heJ0RYiBuO0
■ Captured Prospectors: http://youtu.be/XlwEyOJ1GoA
PvE videos, Ice Wind Dale, MI/melee Scoundrel
■ Ancestral Ceremonies (Pt.1: Phase1): http://youtu.be/8KFylMgMAAQ
■ Ancestral Ceremonies (Pt.2: Boss): http://youtu.be/FcJo25-sQAs
■ Marauding Barbarians: http://youtu.be/-ecVjB7VtzM
■ Merchant in Distress: http://youtu.be/GoAsIRBaHWc
■ The Totem of Auril: http://youtu.be/GsoMf7y6kRo
■ Use of AoEs: http://youtu.be/5OLAfaFxf_k
Can other paths be faster? Of course. Nobody is denying that. But can Scoundrel be managed within reasonable bounds of performance? You watch, you decide.
No dangers of death, no use of healing pots, no super-technique, just easy and intuitive use of attacks.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I seem to have tracked it down to the fact that it mostly happens when at some point certain AoE encounters are activated. I did see it happening with single-target encounters but it is very rare, but with AoE encounters of PotB and Smoke Bomb, it happens frequently. Didn't see it happening with Blitz, though.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Both videos are from Totem of Aurill heroic encounters.
One for executioner:
http://youtu.be/FcCUkA9rPrI
One for sabouter:
http://youtu.be/0DlJoT9_57s
I put screens from ATC, both vs dummy and pve encounter.
First thoughs:
*Sabouter is way to go, its easier and more fun to play, great for solo PVE
*Executioner has higher theoretical damage, but lacks survivalability, might be better in group PVE
Especialy if we use first strike, which I didnt.
Other stuff I noticed:
Path of blade doesnt work with one with the shadow feat.
It does proc Swashbuckling Captain Set bonus, but only on first tick.
Shadow Strike consumes one with the shadow which is just stupid
Action Advantage feat seems to be bugged. It doesnt show any extra AP in character sheet.
I did some testing (2-3 times each). Respec my char and hit dummy with or without Action Advantage,
I had summonned companion, to get combat advantage all the time.
The results are:
~140 hits of sly flourish w/o AA to get full AP bar
~135 hits of sly flourish with AA ro get full AP bar
The feat is useless as it is now, because the difference is very small.
Disciple of Strenght doesnt show any bonus at all in character sheet.
Didnt test if it works or not.
While runing out of heroic encounter mobs were following me for much longer than on live server.
e.g. from totem of Aurill next to Mother Lode, untill I crossed the road.
Improved cunning is useless in PVE. Id like to see changes like extra seconds instead of %.
It will give builds based on stealth better survivalability.
All stealth nerf are because or PVP, I dont mind to see more changes whith different pvp/pve affect.
I know it could be implemented, we have PVP boons and HR shift mechanic, so please DEVS make it happen.
Duelists Flurry - while in stealth the third chain attack should count as one attack.
I can only hit two times while in stealth, but I cannot now stealth attack only third part of DF sequence
(pressing steath after 2nd strike, it doesnt last long enough to finish 3rd attack chain ;/)
It leave TR in open, making this power less and less usefull.
Another option will be to improve resistance/deflect chance while in 3rd strike chain animation.
I see huge difference how TRs are dealing damage now. It used to be based on our at-wills. Now we use encounters in stealth and gloaming cut. When we run out of stealth duelists flurry is still good option. Because off all this our main atribute DEX is much less effective. Most of our damage comes from encounters while stealth which gives 100% crit.
I see two options:
Make DEX our damage ability
Change stealth to 50% extra crit chance, but make it stack (adding up) with our gear/other feats etc.
Still the worst enemy TR has is AOE spells/attacks, it drains stealth very quick leave us in open,
even with hight deflect and defense it is hard to stay alive.
While for other pve classess high life steal is enough to keep them alive, most of them just stay in range
TR needs a bit more, because we need to get into melee and we lacks protection like GF or GWF
(GWF have difficulties in staying alive in mod5 content anyway).
I'd like too seee some changes for at-wills while not in stealth, or just few seconds after we leave stealth.
Like extra % of deflect as a feat instead of T1 Roll with Punches which has too low % to make a difference
or just improve some at-will which are unused now (sly flourish, maybe duelists flurry).
It could have stack while attacking with chosen at wills, e.g. sly flourish and/or duelists flurry.
QUESTIONS:
Cunning Ambusher stacks, is it WAI?
How do Gutterborns Touch and Exposed weakness work?
Is it the same as high prophet set, plaguefire, high vizier, etc?
So it is just extra % of damage while I reached capp of 24% in PVE?