I'm backing this - esp the DR reduction & bleed aspects. I think the stealth changes would make stealth too powerful, though. (I'm still used to and expect stealth being unending, but breaking at the first attack, which is more in line with D&D; it would work decently if it had been programmed that way from the start, but making that change now would cause an uproar)
I appreciate you stating your support, but if I may ask... which aspects of the stealth changes I proposed do you think will make it too powerful?
If it will help, I'll break down my reasoning for the proposed changes to stealth here:
1) Do away with stealth drain over time, but make it so stealth auto-disables if active for 30 seconds without initiating combat. reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 7.5%
Reason: I think that stealth should last long enough to at least be able to fully use any available at-will power, Including DF. And I don't really think it would be a huge problem if one was able to get say 3-4 attacks out of Sly Flourish during stealth.
currently on live, I can complete one full activation of Duelist's Flurry before stealth is gone without using the Improved Cunning Sneak feat. Currently on PTS, I can't complete half of one full activation with the feat. Doing away with the drain over time and reducing the drain from at-wills to half what it currently is, would likely be just about enough to complete one full activation of DF. along with the proposed change I suggested for DF, it should be right around the mark. For the record, yes, I think this particular change might be slightly more than needed... but that's what testing is for, IMO.
2) Add a 35% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. also, reduce the critical chance from 100% in stealth to 50% and allow that bonus to stack with a characters critical strike rating.
Reason: For the most part, I added this in order to alleviate the loss of First Strike's original function, while offering Scoundrel and Executioner a chance to be a little more competitive with current "king of the hill" Saboteur.
The reductions in the damage carried over from First Strike (currently 60% increase on PTS) and the critical chance (currently 100%) from Stealth were to compensate for the additional damage being added. All things considered, this addition would still render stealth about 40-45% less powerful than it currently is on PTS when used in conjunction with the PTS version of First Strike.
Combined with the duration increase above, I'd estimate that overall we'd be getting roughly 70-80% of the power and 20-30% more utility from what's currently available on PTS. I suppose the biggest issue here might be with Gloaming Cut in a PvP setting, but in all fairness it's currently possible on PTS to use GC once with the full 60% First Strike buff and once without while remaining in stealth the whole time.
Furthermore, Don't neglect the fact that while this change may increase the ability to get more utility and damage from at-wills, it also reduces the ability to get a larger First Strike alpha with Encounters because encounters will remove stealth and they will only get around half the damage bonus from what's currently available in the First Strike class feature on PTS. Ultimately all I'm suggesting is rearranging and evening out all the positives and negatives to maintain the usefulness of At-Wills without totally forsaking Encounters in the process.
In the end, I would agree that there's a chance the entire thing would be too powerful, but that is why we're all testing and providing feedback after all, and I'm sure the devs have their own data mining going on. First Strike was already deemed too powerful and was toned down as a result, so it's not a stretch to say that this could be as well.
I think Stealth would likely be fine with at-wills draining 10%, a 25% damage bonus and 50% crit rate, but it's usually harder to get an increase than a decrease, so I think we'd be better to start off with a little more and tweak one bit down at a time until it's just right. :cool:
what's the point in increasing the DPS of TRs, if permastealth is still there? Basically we went from at-will cheap damage spam from stealth, to permastealth--->DPS bursts--->back to stealth, which is pretty much the same.
It's pointless to make a class high DPS but squishy if then you give tools to avoid damage 99% of the time just by staying either in stealth or immunity.
Just my impression, but i get the idea you guys went for the cheap route again. What about a good mix of some stealth and good old dodges? Give more dodges but does not allow players to burst DPS from stealth and then go right back into stealth while dodge rolling away.
Combat should be more about dodging/ anticipating, and less about passive stuff such as stealth, immunity, regeneration of HPs, unavoidable easy passive DPS from procs (intimidation, piercing blade, SS exc...).
The point would be the current form of combat as displayed in the preview, would be the most they could within the constraints of the current TR's basic format of character construction.
I've once mentioned that the TRs need a total rebuild from scratch. That would be necessary if the TRs were to be able to do what you have described, which is personally my preference as well. That is the reason why I also suggested almost every encounter power be changed to accomodate some sort of utility action, such as the "movement" caused by certain powers having dodge/IMMUNITY frames. Another one of such suggestions would be the faster dodges with retaliatory action tied in, as well as a suggestion about "riposte" type of moves.
Now evidently, all of these changes I've envisioned ultimately have in mind the same line of action/skill oriented combat for the TRs, where for example, the TR would face a GWF, use a Blitz type of power to dodge/evade an incoming TD, teleport to the rear, strike a quick CC and hit the GWF from the back side, the GWF turns and tries another CC, the TR dodges to the side immediately and strikes from the flank, causing a stun.. the GWF enters Unstoppable, and only from that moment on the TR enters stealth to buy time until Unstoppable runs out... and so forth, the "action/skill/reflex oriented" combat.
Compared to what I've envisioned, truthfully speaking the current TR in preview is simply a tweaked version of its old self. The fact was immediately noticeable to some of us when we saw that it was only the feats of the three paths that were redesigned and changed. However, considering what they've done is a re-tweaking of the TR, using the tools and concepts that were already in the game, and not a total redesign/rebuild from the bottom up, they actually did a good job with it.
Now all three, Sab/Sco/Exec, have different combat tactics, strengths and weaknesses, with some paths doing better against certain types of classes while being weaker against another. Even the "perma", or the "new perma" as I call it, is distinctly different from the old one where all it involved was simply an endless output/stream of attacks from maximum safety as possible -- which is the key reason which brought forth balance issues. Compared to that the new permas, while seemingly similar to the old ones, are actually very different. For one thing the amount of risk-reward itself is entirely different with the new permas.
From what I see in the combat testings of the preview, the motto of the new TR and its stealth is;
Stay in stealth if you want to be safe, but if you want to do real attack and damage, then you risk coming out of stealth
So at a fundamental level, the basis of TR tactics are the same -- you still need stealth to defend yourself and do damage -- but the way it is actually played out is now totally different.
IMO the Saboteuer and the Scoundrel is almost ready. The 'wildcard' now, is how the Executioner is going to play out. If it retains the one-shot mega-damage capacity, but is still easy to survive with it, then the balance would be still threatened. If not, then we're almost ready to go live.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
because he is HR and while testing he had deflect potion on Been there, saw that, and cant agree... without df (stealth drain) we have only one at will that we can land, because without stealth there is nothing we can do against ranged class: dc, hr, cw, sw, gwf (new intimitadion senti - aoe range).
^This, but tbh i dont know what they are gonna do with the TR, if they want to remove perma TR sure need dmg, and gapclosers. But Nem3ziss u also saw how insanly OP TRs are atm on preview server. If this goes live the forums will be flooded with tears and beg to get mod2 sentinel back rather then this new TRs
1) Do away with stealth drain over time, but make it so stealth auto-disables if active for 30 seconds without initiating combat. reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 7.5%
Reason: I think that stealth should last long enough to at least be able to fully use any available at-will power, Including DF. And I don't really think it would be a huge problem if one was able to get say 3-4 attacks out of Sly Flourish during stealth.
currently on live, I can complete one full activation of Duelist's Flurry before stealth is gone without using the Improved Cunning Sneak feat. Currently on PTS, I can't complete half of one full activation with the feat. Doing away with the drain over time and reducing the drain from at-wills to half what it currently is, would likely be just about enough to complete one full activation of DF. along with the proposed change I suggested for DF, it should be right around the mark. For the record, yes, I think this particular change might be slightly more than needed... but that's what testing is for, IMO.
The whole point of the stealth changes IMO, is to prevent people from spamming at-wills from stealth, so to speak.
People still keep on clinging to the old memories, the old method of hopping around and flinging DF everywhere in stealth, but that's exactly what the new changes are here to force us out of. DF is a powerful tool. Being able to fling that around to full extent from stealth is basically dealing a TR's maximal sustained damage while receiving both the largest amount of offense buffs (coming from CA and stealth-related direct damage buffs) as well as staying in total safety, obscurement to the mobs in PvE.
Personally, I support a slight increase in base/default stealth duration, and I am also positive about perhaps lower stealth drain per at-will attack, but anything that would allow a full activation of DF from stealth, basically defeats the purpose of the changes themselves.
There is a reason they gave us back-to-stealth tools to Sabs, and CCs to Scoundrels. It is meant for us to use it, so that we can maximize damage through use of offensive encounters more, and then use those tools to return to stealth to defend ourselves. Unlike before, we cannot do both at the same time, and that is why more judgement and thinking is required as to at which times you want to blow out stealth for damage, and at which times to stay in it quitely to buy time for recharges, heals, etc..
By asking to revert (or at least partially revert) back to the old stealth paradigm where you could spam at-wills from stealth, it does nothing but reward passive and bland style of gameplay, in the name of so-called "DPS".
If people want a passive, stationary DPS dealer so they can just stay in one spot and push buttons in a certain order to gain higher numbers, then that's not a job for the TR. DPS is important no doubt, but a TR's role should not be confined to DPS, and the whole problem with the PvE aspect concerning a TR's role/position in a party never had anything to do with DPS anyway.
It's the simple mob-damage-kill aspect of the content in game that makes HRs or TRs neglected, not because they lack DPS. It's something that should be catered to by pressuring the developers to come up with more creative dungeon content that accommodates to different roles -- not by giving the class easy-mode damage tools.
[EDIT: For example, a powerful boss or mini-boss level mob with a lot faster "red circle" type attacks that are quite difficult to evade (although not as powerful as the 1-shot attacks some bosses have, and would probably take out maybe 15~20k HP per attack) because it has either a superbly large radius, or a very difficult pattern... but the boss itself can be effected by CCs, but with very high resistance and lasts shortly. In this case, the GWFs or CWs could cater to the problem by using their own CCs, but now, the Scoundrel TR has the most number of short, tactical CCs to use -- in which case the TR could be the "silencer" role appointed to stopping the CC activation everytime by utilizing such CCs -- since CWs/GFs have a longer recharge time with each CC.
Or, henchmen mobs with certain amount of CC resistance, or even high resistance to magic-based attacks that spawn with powerful lieutenant grade mob, which are smarter in their aggro judgement so that it quickly identifies the squishier classes often -- in which case these mobs would resort to ganging up on the DCs or the CWs more often. Hence, the party's GF or GWF needs to grab aggro on the toughest mob, while the TR moves in to support the CW or the DC.
In both cases the "DPS" is not the issue. It's what the TR can do during that specific situation that matters. Currently our dungeon content is not "intelligent" enough and most mob action logic/programming is very simple, as well as they are susceptible to CCs and all types of attacks and are quite weak. The tougher, higher-level CWs can simply face-tank a few of them if they break aggro and gang up, just sweep them up in one CC and bam, dispatch all of them quickly. Things are "casual" in the game, and sometimes just too casual.
It is in that sense, neglected classes like TRs or HRs can get a role -- not by trying to contend with heavy-defense, high-damage melees in the DPS category by asking to get easy immunities and longer stealth, so they can sit behind the mob and just oush Q, E, R, and spam DF in one spot.]
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I appreciate you stating your support, but if I may ask... which aspects of the stealth changes I proposed do you think will make it too powerful?
If it will help, I'll break down my reasoning for the proposed changes to stealth here:
1) Do away with stealth drain over time, but make it so stealth auto-disables if active for 30 seconds without initiating combat. reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 7.5%
Reason: I think that stealth should last long enough to at least be able to fully use any available at-will power, Including DF. And I don't really think it would be a huge problem if one was able to get say 3-4 attacks out of Sly Flourish during stealth.
currently on live, I can complete one full activation of Duelist's Flurry before stealth is gone without using the Improved Cunning Sneak feat. Currently on PTS, I can't complete half of one full activation with the feat. Doing away with the drain over time and reducing the drain from at-wills to half what it currently is, would likely be just about enough to complete one full activation of DF. along with the proposed change I suggested for DF, it should be right around the mark. For the record, yes, I think this particular change might be slightly more than needed... but that's what testing is for, IMO.
2) Add a 35% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. also, reduce the critical chance from 100% in stealth to 50% and allow that bonus to stack with a characters critical strike rating.
Reason: For the most part, I added this in order to alleviate the loss of First Strike's original function, while offering Scoundrel and Executioner a chance to be a little more competitive with current "king of the hill" Saboteur.
The reductions in the damage carried over from First Strike (currently 60% increase on PTS) and the critical chance (currently 100%) from Stealth were to compensate for the additional damage being added. All things considered, this addition would still render stealth about 40-45% less powerful than it currently is on PTS when used in conjunction with the PTS version of First Strike.
Combined with the duration increase above, I'd estimate that overall we'd be getting roughly 70-80% of the power and 20-30% more utility from what's currently available on PTS. I suppose the biggest issue here might be with Gloaming Cut in a PvP setting, but in all fairness it's currently possible on PTS to use GC once with the full 60% First Strike buff and once without while remaining in stealth the whole time.
Furthermore, Don't neglect the fact that while this change may increase the ability to get more utility and damage from at-wills, it also reduces the ability to get a larger First Strike alpha with Encounters because encounters will remove stealth and they will only get around half the damage bonus from what's currently available in the First Strike class feature on PTS. Ultimately all I'm suggesting is rearranging and evening out all the positives and negatives to maintain the usefulness of At-Wills without totally forsaking Encounters in the process.
In the end, I would agree that there's a chance the entire thing would be too powerful, but that is why we're all testing and providing feedback after all, and I'm sure the devs have their own data mining going on. First Strike was already deemed too powerful and was toned down as a result, so it's not a stretch to say that this could be as well.
I think Stealth would likely be fine with at-wills draining 10%, a 25% damage bonus and 50% crit rate, but it's usually harder to get an increase than a decrease, so I think we'd be better to start off with a little more and tweak one bit down at a time until it's just right. :cool:
I think the biggest issue is providing both the security of longer stealth and added damage while in stealth. When stealthed, being able to attack without being seen is benefit enough (as under the current stealth schematic). If you want to add significant bonuses to damage from stealth, then stealth needs to end sooner, rather than later. As it stands, 100% crit chance from stealth necessitates a shorter stealth, or, at least, one that ends upon attack. A lower crit chance + general damage buff would require shorter stealth and draining upon attacking at the very least (as your target is bound to notice you, were it real life).
Really, the issue goes down to the debate on the purpose of stealth. The way I see it, there are two camps:
Stealth as escape/security/survival mechanism
Stealth for positioning and executing a key strike
I fall into the 2nd camp and, having played D&D from 2.0 through pathfinder and various MMOs, I find that the role of stealth has indeed shifted slightly from the latter to the former. Regardless of position, though, there are penalties when attempting to enter stealth in combat - attacks of opportunity, higher fail chance, etc., but nowhere does it have both traits completely.
Now, I realize that this is an mmo, which is part of the reason stealth mechanics are difficult to execute. Honestly, the best stealth mechanics I've seen have been in single-player games, in which one has to pay constant attention to one's target and surroundings to avoid notice (i.e. premature ending of stealth) and stealth ends upon attack, notably "The Hobbit" (early 00's) and Kingdoms of Amalur. This mechanic would be a pain to implement, especially for PvP, which is why it doesn't exist in this state.
So, to sum, I think stealth should either be extended longer, with no major penalty for at-wills (maybe some slight breakage/fuzzing while attacking, for PvP's sake), which is the current system we are trying to move away from, or be given moderate to significant damage benefits, but ends shortly after attacking, which is where we're moving towards. Regardless, I don't think re-entering stealth in combat should be as easy as it currently is (looking at SS and Sab tree in particular).
I believe the TR changes are now starting to enter a solid zone.
In case of Saboteuer, while many people were simply awed by the damage of Executioner in version1, some of the TRs who have been testing thoroughly have commented that it is their belief the Saboteuer's the most solid one of them all. With the reduced cooldown of OWTS I'd say this path is almost complete.
In case of the Scoundrel, it received the largest benefits of version2. The turn-out of this path is simply amazing... and equally amazing is the fact that the path comfortably fits both MIs and WKs well. The potential of this path applies differently to MIs and WKs in accordance with the innate differences between the two paragon paths, and thus MI Scoundrels are now quite amazing melees, while WK Scoundrels are the masters of harassment and fast paced in-and-out tactics. Every feat is now quite satisfying -- and even Concussive Strikes... or rather, especially Concussive Strikes.
Concussive Strikes now finally gives the TRs a much needed "silencer" power against ranged attacks or casting, allowing TRs to gain the initiative against ranged attackers. It was incredibly pleasant to find out that I, a WK with no CC breakers, could now escape the dreaded Icy Rays by; Stealth → Crit CoS → inflict daze. In moments of emergency, a desperate CoS stream of attacks pays off as a crit hit will momentarily daze your oppoenent, buying you precious 2.5 seconds to prepare yourself for the counter attack.
In a stealth fight against another TR, as you move around and search wildly for each other, a clandestine fling of a single CoS as your opponent passes by will now daze and momentarily pull him out of stealth, at which point you can fire off a VP mark to track him further and land a big hit, or simply decide to end his stealth with your own by flinging all CoS streams -- you and your opponent, both out of stealth, certain distance between the two -- good situation for a ranged TR.
While the Concussive Strikes daze may seem useless to some, the reality is much different: Concussive Strikes is now a must for any Scoundrel. The tactical worth of this feat, IMO, actually matches that of the capstone Skull Cracker.
I can't say much about the Executioner, as the style of this path does not agree with me well. My impression is the fighting style, rythm of the Executioner most closely matches the "old" TR tactics and moves. It has neither the deceptive and stylish rythm of the Saboteuer, nor does it have the technical and fluent CC tactics of the Scoundrel. The Executioner seems to play almost identically to the old TRs (especially old MI TRs familiar with the use of GC), but has the one-big-hit going for the path. Usually the fights I see a Saboteuer (Scoundrel builds are still rare in the preview) will have the upperhand all throughout the fight, but if it gets caught by that 1-big-hit, then the Executioner wins. Otherwise the Sabotuer does. I'll basically leave the judgement on Executioner paths/builds to other people more used to the path.
One thing is for certain. Now, all three paths are totally different in how they manage a fight. All three are unique, and all three have distinct strengths and weaknesses. When combined with the two different Paragons, effectively it can be said that we are given 6 different sub-type choices of the TR, 3 distinctly different MI types, and 3 distinctly different WK types. Every path plays it out differently, and it has been so much fun testing the different paths with other people.
2. THE NEW SCOUNDREL PATH
Now, since most of this version2 update concerns Scoundrels, I've already commented how much I enjoyed it, and how the CC aspect is now well represented in the TR.
However, there is still something left to be desired, and that is the other feats -- related to adding "strong defense" as a Scoundrel, seems actually redundant now. Particularly the Life Steal related feats.
I imagine the general intent behind the life steal related feats was to make the Scoundrel path sort of like the Combat path HR and Wilds Medicine, but it really doesn't seem to be working out that way.
As many of the players have mentioned, TRs are still much too weak in terms of defense. In this aspect, the best comparison would be with HRs -- same leather-grade armour, and yet while TRs are generally considered squishy, the HRs are considered extremely tough.
Why is this so? I believe the reasons are:
(1) HRs have a variety of buffs for self-protection. TRs do not.
(2) HRs have a deflection rate that averages higher than even TRs.
(3) HRs have self-sustenance(healing) that synergizes with deflect. TRs do not.
(4) HRs have much more active number of dodges.
I've been giving it thought as to how the general defense level of the TR can be upgraded, but not the levels of the HR (which is often considered OP by many, especially in its ability to endlessly heal itself constantly). "Borrowing" the deflect=heal method would be obviously the simplest, as it essentially benchmarks the HRs in its primary defense mechanism. However, I don't think that's the path TRs should go.
Instead, I was thinking about a feat which might sort of work out like the HR defense mechanism Wild Medicine, but instead return stamina for TRs instead of HP.
The reasoning behind this, is tying up successful deflection action with stamina gain will result in the TR defense mechanisms synergizing with each other. Gaining HP would just make it OP since for example power like ITC would be much too powerful with heals, but if the TRs gained stamina for successful deflects, then there would be more dodges to be used -- increasing both the defense of the TR as well as mobility.
It does not directly add HP, so a damaged TR is still damaged. There won't be any bullshi* like the HR where you damage him and he actually deflects and heals more from it (like DoTs) -- but instead the more the successful deflects the more you will be able to dodge and move around faster.
Therefore, adding this function to the Scoundrel path, instead of the redundant Life Steal related feats, would benefit the TRs much more in PvP and PvE.
So, to sum everything up and summarize a suggestion to the Scoundrel feats;
T1
Roll with the Punches: increase the deflection chance to 1/2/3/4/5% please
Bloody Brawler: Redundant. Let's try replacing it with a feat which further increases your stamina regeneration rate by 10%, and reduces the amount of stamina required to dodge by 4/8/12/16/20%
T2
Survivor: Please change the threshold to less than 40% HP
T3
Savage Blows: Redundant. Replace it with a feat that provides 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina bar regenerated upon a successful deflect
So basically, we put an extra stamina regeneration/dodge stamina cost reduction feat at T1, so other trees may also access it if they wish. If we scale the stamina bar at 100, the old dodges used to cost 50, the new dodges (intended) are now 33, and with this feat a 25% reduction if 5 points invested to it, making it around 25 cost, giving 4 dodges from the get-go.
Then we place a deflect→stamina mechanism at T3, so it remains inaccessible to other builds that chose other paths upto its capstone.
IMO this will increase the TR defense capability as more people might decide to choose the T1 feat, so all TRs who choose this will have at least more dodges, and then the Scoundrel path could make even further use of it through the [deflect=stamina regen=more dodge] mechanism I've proposed.
I think this is a brilliant suggestion regarding stamina replenishment mechanic.
I would prefer dodges more similar to HR (backflip/handspring animation), but this may be too OP'd & unpredictable for other classes to play against. Backflip>encounter>backflip>encounter>backflip>encounter>stealth.... rinse & repeat... that would be practically invincible.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I think this is a brilliant suggestion regarding stamina replenishment mechanic.
I would prefer dodges more similar to HR (backflip/handspring animation), but this may be too OP'd & unpredictable for other classes to play against. Backflip>encounter>backflip>encounter>backflip>encounter>stealth.... rinse & repeat... that would be practically invincible.
Feedback: Bait and switch when we drop bait and switch we should get some type of immunity for 2 seconds.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
So, to sum everything up and summarize a suggestion to the Scoundrel feats;
T1
Roll with the Punches: increase the deflection chance to 1/2/3/4/5% please
Bloody Brawler: Redundant. Let's try replacing it with a feat which further increases your stamina regeneration rate by 10%, and reduces the amount of stamina required to dodge by 4/8/12/16/20%
T2
Survivor: Please change the threshold to less than 40% HP
T3
Savage Blows: Redundant. Replace it with a feat that provides 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina bar regenerated upon a successful deflect
i kinda agree with this. main issue with fighting outside of stealth is that all of our main targets beat us in mobility and extra dodges helps us deal with the fact that we are always focus-fired.
only other things necessary is maybe a feat that slows anyone we daze (better than running faster since you can't run while using at-wills), instant-daze from smoke bomb, faster at-wills, or the ability to use at-wills while moving
Feedback: Bait and switch when we drop bait and switch we should get some type of immunity for 2 seconds.
It is still my opinion all powers that are associated with "movement", such as the back-rolling BnS, back-shifting Blitz, teleporting VP and teleporting Deft Strike, need dodge/IMMUNITY frames built into it like Fox's Shift the HRs have. It would increase the utility and tactical worth of these powers a great deal IMO.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Is there any consideration being given to removing the mechanic of damage impeding stealth recovery? I'd imagine that with it being more difficult to deal damage from stealth, we'd be able to more reliably regain stealth. As it stands, without Tenacious Concealment (and often with it) you only get to setup your initial position/ attack from stealth. Especially when soloing content; which seems to be what the game has turned into (i.e. dailies). When focused at all, the stealth drain from damage taken makes it near impossible to re-enter stealth.
Could we consider removing that mechanic, and/ or adding a new mechanic? Something that allows us to consistently regain stealth, as a tactical option. Such as;
At-wills will now regain 15% of your stealth meter when used from out of stealth.
This should let us be able to actually weave in and out of stealth, versus the current state on preview; where you stealth, hit something, then try to DPS everything down before it kills you. Unless you go Saboteur tree, or slot Shadow Strike, there is no reliable way to go back into stealth mid-combat. Which makes the whole defining class mechanic thing kinda lousy (though still not as bad as GF's).
Also, while I'm appreciative of the buffs to AOE potential, it still seems like our single target damage is lacking. Burst could be useful in PVP, but the heavies in PVE are significantly beefier (and other classes just do it better). What I'd like to see is potent sustained DPS. For example;
Duelist' Flurry bleeds now deal 1% of their targets maximum HP per stack.
In PVP, the damage shouldn't really change. In fact, it may be a bit lower, depending on your gear. Even all ten stacks would only range from 2k (target with 20k HP) to 5k (target with 50K HP). But in PVE... it'd be quite a different story. We may actually become the boss burners we used to be.
Otherwise, I feel like most folks have hit the other concerns. I'm a bit bummed that the Scoundrel tree is still pretty squishy, but I think we were all spoiled by the whole Aspect of the Lone Wolf/ Wilds Medicine synergy.
It is still my opinion all powers that are associated with "movement", such as the back-rolling BnS, back-shifting Blitz, teleporting VP and teleporting Deft Strike, need dodge/IMMUNITY frames built into it like Fox's Shift the HRs have. It would increase the utility and tactical worth of these powers a great deal IMO.
I would even go far as to say Dazing Strike should get a 0.5sec one as well.
Is there any consideration being given to removing the mechanic of damage impeding stealth recovery? I'd imagine that with it being more difficult to deal damage from stealth, we'd be able to more reliably regain stealth. As it stands, without Tenacious Concealment (and often with it) you only get to setup your initial position/ attack from stealth. Especially when soloing content; which seems to be what the game has turned into (i.e. dailies). When focused at all, the stealth drain from damage taken makes it near impossible to re-enter stealth.
Smokebomb, Dazing Strike(the new, super-wide AoE/cone version), any other options that impede enemy action, buying you time and safety for that precious 4~5 seconds until you refill stealth, or recharge SS.
I can solo 1~2 man HE in IWD at a quite fast speed, never losing more than 30% HP with just VP/DS/SS + CoS/DHS setup, and I'm not even a Sab. With the same setting I can fight against the 3~5 man HE mobs (the tougher ones) 3~5 at a given time.
It's all about management, timing, and coming up with stealth rotations that fit the new and improved powers. For example WK has now actually vastly improved even in PvE, thanks to the changes with DHS, damage boosts with Scoundrel feats, and the new and improved Advantageous Position class feature that allows you to retain combat advantage upto 6 seconds out of stealth -- meaning: DF used with a WK will land you that 15~20% higher damage from CA even when stealth expires along the way (although other stealth related damage buffs won't apply, this means now WK builds actually have the highest damage potential when using DF).
Everything I learned, it came from testing the new changes thoroughly, and thinking out of the box -- the moment I saw the change notes posted by gentlemancrush I realized the old method wouldn't work. Hence, I spent my time trying to come up with somethiong that would be viable under the new changes, not waste it trying to use old and out-dated methods with a new and different mechanic.
I sincerely recommend my fellow TRs look to the future. If it doesn't work anymore, discard it guys. Don't hold on to it.
Could we consider removing that mechanic, and/ or adding a new mechanic? Something that allows us to consistently regain stealth, as a tactical option. Such as;
At-wills will now regain 15% of your stealth meter when used from out of stealth.
No need to revert to the old ways, nor do we need an at-will regenerating stealth. If anything that totally defeats the purpose of the changes in the first place. Consistently regaining stealth -- we call that "Saboteuer". Alternately, if you can't do that, there are ways to keep the enemeis at bay and minimize incoming damage until you buy enough time. We call that one "Scoundrel". Both are completely viable with any solo-play content. The only thing the new TRs cannot do, is do ridiculous stuff like solo dungeon bosses or 5-man HE boss spawns by abusing the old perma.
This should let us be able to actually weave in and out of stealth, versus the current state on preview; where you stealth, hit something, then try to DPS everything down before it kills you. Unless you go Saboteur tree, or slot Shadow Strike, there is no reliable way to go back into stealth mid-combat. Which makes the whole defining class mechanic thing kinda lousy (though still not as bad as GF's).
That's where you're wrong. With no disrepect, you just haven't found the way to do it yet.
Also, while I'm appreciative of the buffs to AOE potential, it still seems like our single target damage is lacking. Burst could be useful in PVP, but the heavies in PVE are significantly beefier (and other classes just do it better). What I'd like to see is potent sustained DPS. For example;
Duelist' Flurry bleeds now deal 1% of their targets maximum HP per stack.
If you want potent sustained damage, come to WK. As a WK now I can put up a 3~4k Disheartening Strike on mobs without using First Strike, that ticks for 15 seconds, easily racking upto over 25k damage done on mutiple mobs.
This is just the thing I am trying to say. I'm assuming you're still with the old MI style. But now, WKs can actually do some things better. You can't learn about this stuff unless you think out of the box and go 'wild' with experimenting everytime chance is given, like with the current preview/testing phase.
With a WK, I put up higher consistent, sustained DPS than I ever could before. I survive with no problems at all, and I'm not one of those 20k GS TRs with 45k HP. My GS is now barely over 17k, power is merely 5k. That's still enough for me to very easily solo 1~2man IWD HEs in the preview, easily fight 4~5 PvP zone AB/TT guardian, wizard, rogue adds.
In PVP, the damage shouldn't really change. In fact, it may be a bit lower, depending on your gear. Even all ten stacks would only range from 2k (target with 20k HP) to 5k (target with 50K HP). But in PVE... it'd be quite a different story. We may actually become the boss burners we used to be.
Otherwise, I feel like most folks have hit the other concerns. I'm a bit bummed that the Scoundrel tree is still pretty squishy, but I think we were all spoiled by the whole Aspect of the Lone Wolf/ Wilds Medicine synergy.
Word of advice: Scoundrel is as tough as you can manage your daze rotations. Both in PvP and PvE. I haven't seen how you play so I would just assume it, and judging by what you have mentioned here. Again, with no disrespectful intent, I sincerely would like to say that there are a lot of things you still haven't discovered about the new TR changes.
It's got a lot of potential waiting to be discovered by you. Don't give up friend, and don't give in to "can't do it without the old-style stealth" temptations, because you can do it. Its completely possible, and viable. If you're having some troubles, post a vid in the Thieve's Den. I will try my best to help you wtih adjusting to the new changes.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So TRs landing 20K dmg atwill from stealth is not OP and having unlimited dodges? I am talking about BiS players now with P vorpal. But if this matchmaking is still the same as it is now. people will get 1 shot by an atwill, is this not OP then i dont know what is..
So TRs landing 20K dmg atwill from stealth is not OP and having unlimited dodges? I am talking about BiS players now with P vorpal. But if this matchmaking is still the same as it is now. people will get 1 shot by an atwill, is this not OP then i dont know what is..
This! The dmg is way! too high for TRs while perma stealth is still quite possible. Also some of the proposed improvements from player feedback a way over the top.
You should either have great dmg and short stealth or long stealth and low dmg. Not both high dmg, perma stealth and, following some feedback here nearly perma immunity through dodges and skills.
You should either have great dmg and short stealth or long stealth and low dmg. Not both high dmg, perma stealth and, following some feedback here nearly perma immunity through dodges and skills.
Fully agree on this point. I think there's an aspect of wanting some GWF/GF hybrid with TR spike abilities, being able to faceroll or avoid being hit while dealing massive damage. It's the same issue seen in GWF forums and GF forums as classes want to have both aspects in one, rather than having to choose.
In this case, as I said before, we're running a stealth which offers substantial damage benefits, so of course it's going to end shorter, preventing players from abusing it. The live stealth tends towards the long, bonus-less stealth.
The main issue is that the change in gameplay for stealth-reliant players (which, in many cases, had become quite the niche build) has changed completely. No longer can a player camp out in stealth flinging attacks willy-nilly. Now, in PTS, you have to plan your stealth for best effect or, if you want extended stealth, work your powers to give the required results, instead of stealthing passively.
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
http://imgur.com/z7MxuXv
I don't ever want to hear anyone complain about TR future changes and higher damage now..
Click the link to see full picture...
This is also why we don't need more artifact items in game!
mod 4 gwf hitting me for 40k damage is madness!!!
I'm not saying he needs a nerf, but I am saying no more artifact belts , rings, cloaks, weapons.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Bug: Scoundrel Feat - Bloody Brawler The 2.5% (rank 5/5) Life Steal does not apply to Life Steal stat. I get the same LS as before.
This is not a bug, it's actually WAI. The bonus is added directly to your "health gained from damage" stat so that it's fair and even for everyone. This is much better than giving everyone only 2.5% of however much of the life steal stat they have
Bug: Saboteur “Ambusher's Haste” and “Shadowy Opportunity” – the piercing damage only activates when I have points on the two feats at the same time.
Bug: Scoundrel Skullcracker dazes myself when I activate Lurker Assault daily
Feedback: Give whisperknife some at-will that don't drain stealth. Whisperknife path is currently useless and don't contribute nothing to the variety of builds in game.
Reduce the stealth drain to 5% per at-will hit. Currently it drains so fast that we can't coordinate a single at-will spawn when we are under attack. The stealth drain from getting attacked and the drain for the at-will spawn makes stealth disappear in 2 seconds.
We need more survivability. The ITC changes are killing us to fast. Whisperknife was further without useless without some ITC and at-will from that can be used stealth.
We just can’t survive a CW or a GWF whitout stealth.,so please make us more resintent. And give us more control options. Makes smoke bomb a stun encounter and give the skill some damage.
Improves sly flourish cast speed. The at-will became useless without the scoundrel feat.
“Shadowy Opportunity” piercing damage must procs out of stealth to.
I fell the TR don’t have enough damage boost in comparison to CW or GWF.
Even though I'm liking the direction the changes are going, I'm still worried, I think TRs might be bit too good in PVP (which could get us nerfed again in both PVP and PVE) and not good enough in PVE, I mean from the info some people are getting, they are getting more dps than before (around 50% more) but when you have CWs, SWs or now DCs doing 4 or 5 times the damage we do, I still fear we're not useful enough to bring us in a dungeon. :S
I think the biggest issue is providing both the security of longer stealth and added damage while in stealth. When stealthed, being able to attack without being seen is benefit enough (as under the current stealth schematic). If you want to add significant bonuses to damage from stealth, then stealth needs to end sooner, rather than later. As it stands, 100% crit chance from stealth necessitates a shorter stealth, or, at least, one that ends upon attack. A lower crit chance + general damage buff would require shorter stealth and draining upon attacking at the very least (as your target is bound to notice you, were it real life).
Really, the issue goes down to the debate on the purpose of stealth. The way I see it, there are two camps:
Stealth as escape/security/survival mechanism
Stealth for positioning and executing a key strike
I fall into the 2nd camp and, having played D&D from 2.0 through pathfinder and various MMOs, I find that the role of stealth has indeed shifted slightly from the latter to the former. Regardless of position, though, there are penalties when attempting to enter stealth in combat - attacks of opportunity, higher fail chance, etc., but nowhere does it have both traits completely.
Now, I realize that this is an mmo, which is part of the reason stealth mechanics are difficult to execute. Honestly, the best stealth mechanics I've seen have been in single-player games, in which one has to pay constant attention to one's target and surroundings to avoid notice (i.e. premature ending of stealth) and stealth ends upon attack, notably "The Hobbit" (early 00's) and Kingdoms of Amalur. This mechanic would be a pain to implement, especially for PvP, which is why it doesn't exist in this state.
So, to sum, I think stealth should either be extended longer, with no major penalty for at-wills (maybe some slight breakage/fuzzing while attacking, for PvP's sake), which is the current system we are trying to move away from, or be given moderate to significant damage benefits, but ends shortly after attacking, which is where we're moving towards. Regardless, I don't think re-entering stealth in combat should be as easy as it currently is (looking at SS and Sab tree in particular).
I keep seeing people say that "with the availability of longer duration stealth there should be less damage, and with less duration stealth there should be more damage"...
Hello? Has anyone been on PTS lately? Saboteur currently has both the longest available stealth along with the ability to enter stealth far, far more frequently and the best damage capabilities of the three specs. The other two should be brought up to par, and if not, then what is the point of this "rework"? To make Saboteur the new replacement for Executioner on live?
I'm sorry, but Stealth availability is too low for the two remaining specs. it may not need as large of a buff as I suggested, but it does need one, without question.
Current Saboteur has more than enough duration already. Increasing the duration slightly, reducing the crit rate to 50% and adding in a decent damage buff would not make it OP... it would actually knock Saboteur down a peg in damage, and allow the other two specs to catch up a little. It might even have the potential to make Executioner the top damage dealer it should be, with Sab closely behind and Scoundrel at the bottom.
I tend to think that the hierarchy should be: Executioner in 1st place for Pure Damage, then Scoundrel in 2nd for Moderate Damage and Utility and finally Saboteur in 3rd for Moderate Damage and Stealth.
That said, I do agree with many of your points. But most often, in this game, I'll use stealth as a means to gain Combat Advantage for building back AP after using a daily. As a solo PvE player, it can often be difficult to gain combat advantage without using stealth or having a companion out to flank the enemy, and currently on PTS our only feat to increase AP gain is tied to having Combat Advantage... which means that the current function of stealth on PTS will, among other things, make using dailies far less frequent for any non-Saboteur spec who can't stay in or re-enter stealth anywhere near as often.
There are most definitely ways around this to make stealth more available to Scoundrel or Executioner, but those ways all involve selecting specific powers and/or class features and/or feats in order to do it. In the end we'd just be imitating Saboteur, so why bother to go any route other than Sab in that case? after all, they have all the stealth, and all the damage. Saboteur is for Mod5 what Executioner currently is on live. The single most recognized "best" spec that the majority will gravitate towards.
Just to be clear, I don't actually have a big problem with the current Saboteur spec. Actually I like it, it's been fun to play in my testing of it. I do however, have a big problem with the fact that the other two specs are lagging drastically behind it. I have a problem that Scoundrel is supposed to be the "tough, more survivable spec" and has to use two specs for increased life steal (on top of having 3 more for deflect and only one for control effects) instead of damage, and yet both Sab and Exe with their damage specs can heal more from life steal than Scoundrel.
Hmm... I hear you on that, especially in your idea of where the damage rankings should be and on how much Sab is getting boosted from being able to stay in the heavily buffed stealth.
As far as AP goes? I will miss scoundrel's action gain feat. end of story. Though I have to wonder if hitting on CCed enemies counts for CA, because, if so, then the smokebomb + dazing scoundrel (what I use for IWD HEs) could regen AP very quickly.
Just to be clear, I don't actually have a big problem with the current Saboteur spec. Actually I like it, it's been fun to play in my testing of it. I do however, have a big problem with the fact that the other two specs are lagging drastically behind it. I have a problem that Scoundrel is supposed to be the "tough, more survivable spec" and has to use two specs for increased life steal (on top of having 3 more for deflect and only one for control effects) instead of damage, and yet both Sab and Exe with their damage specs can heal more from life steal than Scoundrel.
I agree on the pointlessness of the redundant lifesteal and deflect feats. Scoundrel should be the versatile one who stacks effects through dirty fighting and, as such, shouldn't need stealth as much. As a result, I've been running a hybrid on PTS to give me the T1 crit severity and T2 DR debuff of exe (I really would like for something like catspaw style to return). Consolidating the deflect and lifesteal feats (which really are pennies in the overall bucket) into one substantial feat each would be more beneficial. Also, see my response earlier to kweassa's suggestion of deflect builds stamina (don't really like that, but agree some of the excess should be swapped out).
Executioner's still got the short end of the stick as spike damage doesn't make for a good fight with someone who happens to have multiple HDs' worth of health.
So, yes. stealth is a sticky issue, what with it having serious benefits, but one feat tree tailored to milk stealth more, which results in that one spec over-damaging the other two.
I still think that there needs to be some clarification/thought put into the variance of stealth from someone with only the normal stealth to someone with maxed improved cunning sneak + profound/grim/battlefield. I think stealth duration, with the direction the devs are taking it, needs to be normalized and not varied in its potential and I still feel that adding a 1 second duration to the normal stealth and replacing ICS and the stealth extension on armor would be the way to go.
Feedback: Bug Report Smoke Bomb is still working too well; it is dazing everything inside the cloud, myself included. This is obviously not WAI and is hampering gameplay as the effect of using SB is, essentially, nullified
sabotuer is not better dps than executioner at higher gear level, only when you are not armor pen capped and with high crit chance
Problem: TR now gets most of its damage from stealth which works for sab tree (this one is going well), however exec and scoundrel are forced to slot SS to be able to get the most out of these changes.
my problem with the new stealth is that you can use it onle a small fraction of the time, for other classes, their tab skill is useful much longer, but we only get a few secs in every battle.
my problem with the new stealth is that you can use it onle a small fraction of the time, for other classes, their tab skill is useful much longer, but we only get a few secs in every battle.
It is certainly different from the others. I don't mind it being different, though, but it still needs to be sorted out more. For the executioner it feels like you should not even use stealth except to follow with lashing or another encounter and it goes so fast that you cannot play around (except maybe move a little bit) as trying an attack or two before your encounter can waste the stealth.
- TR is permanently in stealth while moving, out of fight.
- the moment you attack, you are out of stealth
- More dodges and tricks to stun/ mess up targeting (clones) to increase survivability. ITC as cc immunity and damage reduction (no full immunity). More dodges for more 'proactive' survival
- obviously more damage with crit and high spikes
- cannot re-enter stealth for 10 seconds after being in combat (to avoid easy escapes)
-one path being the current perma with more stealth but dots/ low damage dispatched over time (kind of low damage 'tank'/harrasser). The closer you are to target, the longer stealth lasts. When you get far, stealth drains fast to avoid easy escape and force skillful evading gameplay while in combat, avoiding cheap tactics like attack-get away-attack endlessly. Gap closer sort of marauder rush so TR can get close to ranged classes and engage in close combat. Per ma style but in mele e range with no in-out play. You decide to fight, you can't get away as you please.
I've been testing Scoundrel fairly extensively in the well of Dragons. While I like the somewhat chaotic fighting style (lots of dodging and dazing) I feel it still lacks survivability. The Lifesteal boost in no way compensates for the reduction is LS healing due to lower DPS when compared to Saboteur.
Scoundrel needs either a further Lifesteal boost or a DPS boost. IMO it's filling a similar role to the Combat HR and should have comparable performance. Currently this is not the case.
Comments
I appreciate you stating your support, but if I may ask... which aspects of the stealth changes I proposed do you think will make it too powerful?
If it will help, I'll break down my reasoning for the proposed changes to stealth here:
1) Do away with stealth drain over time, but make it so stealth auto-disables if active for 30 seconds without initiating combat. reduce the stealth drain from at-wills from 15% per strike to 7.5%
Reason: I think that stealth should last long enough to at least be able to fully use any available at-will power, Including DF. And I don't really think it would be a huge problem if one was able to get say 3-4 attacks out of Sly Flourish during stealth.
currently on live, I can complete one full activation of Duelist's Flurry before stealth is gone without using the Improved Cunning Sneak feat. Currently on PTS, I can't complete half of one full activation with the feat. Doing away with the drain over time and reducing the drain from at-wills to half what it currently is, would likely be just about enough to complete one full activation of DF. along with the proposed change I suggested for DF, it should be right around the mark. For the record, yes, I think this particular change might be slightly more than needed... but that's what testing is for, IMO.
2) Add a 35% bonus to damage while attacking from stealth. also, reduce the critical chance from 100% in stealth to 50% and allow that bonus to stack with a characters critical strike rating.
Reason: For the most part, I added this in order to alleviate the loss of First Strike's original function, while offering Scoundrel and Executioner a chance to be a little more competitive with current "king of the hill" Saboteur.
The reductions in the damage carried over from First Strike (currently 60% increase on PTS) and the critical chance (currently 100%) from Stealth were to compensate for the additional damage being added. All things considered, this addition would still render stealth about 40-45% less powerful than it currently is on PTS when used in conjunction with the PTS version of First Strike.
Combined with the duration increase above, I'd estimate that overall we'd be getting roughly 70-80% of the power and 20-30% more utility from what's currently available on PTS. I suppose the biggest issue here might be with Gloaming Cut in a PvP setting, but in all fairness it's currently possible on PTS to use GC once with the full 60% First Strike buff and once without while remaining in stealth the whole time.
Furthermore, Don't neglect the fact that while this change may increase the ability to get more utility and damage from at-wills, it also reduces the ability to get a larger First Strike alpha with Encounters because encounters will remove stealth and they will only get around half the damage bonus from what's currently available in the First Strike class feature on PTS. Ultimately all I'm suggesting is rearranging and evening out all the positives and negatives to maintain the usefulness of At-Wills without totally forsaking Encounters in the process.
In the end, I would agree that there's a chance the entire thing would be too powerful, but that is why we're all testing and providing feedback after all, and I'm sure the devs have their own data mining going on. First Strike was already deemed too powerful and was toned down as a result, so it's not a stretch to say that this could be as well.
I think Stealth would likely be fine with at-wills draining 10%, a 25% damage bonus and 50% crit rate, but it's usually harder to get an increase than a decrease, so I think we'd be better to start off with a little more and tweak one bit down at a time until it's just right. :cool:
The point would be the current form of combat as displayed in the preview, would be the most they could within the constraints of the current TR's basic format of character construction.
I've once mentioned that the TRs need a total rebuild from scratch. That would be necessary if the TRs were to be able to do what you have described, which is personally my preference as well. That is the reason why I also suggested almost every encounter power be changed to accomodate some sort of utility action, such as the "movement" caused by certain powers having dodge/IMMUNITY frames. Another one of such suggestions would be the faster dodges with retaliatory action tied in, as well as a suggestion about "riposte" type of moves.
Now evidently, all of these changes I've envisioned ultimately have in mind the same line of action/skill oriented combat for the TRs, where for example, the TR would face a GWF, use a Blitz type of power to dodge/evade an incoming TD, teleport to the rear, strike a quick CC and hit the GWF from the back side, the GWF turns and tries another CC, the TR dodges to the side immediately and strikes from the flank, causing a stun.. the GWF enters Unstoppable, and only from that moment on the TR enters stealth to buy time until Unstoppable runs out... and so forth, the "action/skill/reflex oriented" combat.
Compared to what I've envisioned, truthfully speaking the current TR in preview is simply a tweaked version of its old self. The fact was immediately noticeable to some of us when we saw that it was only the feats of the three paths that were redesigned and changed. However, considering what they've done is a re-tweaking of the TR, using the tools and concepts that were already in the game, and not a total redesign/rebuild from the bottom up, they actually did a good job with it.
Now all three, Sab/Sco/Exec, have different combat tactics, strengths and weaknesses, with some paths doing better against certain types of classes while being weaker against another. Even the "perma", or the "new perma" as I call it, is distinctly different from the old one where all it involved was simply an endless output/stream of attacks from maximum safety as possible -- which is the key reason which brought forth balance issues. Compared to that the new permas, while seemingly similar to the old ones, are actually very different. For one thing the amount of risk-reward itself is entirely different with the new permas.
From what I see in the combat testings of the preview, the motto of the new TR and its stealth is;
Stay in stealth if you want to be safe, but if you want to do real attack and damage, then you risk coming out of stealth
So at a fundamental level, the basis of TR tactics are the same -- you still need stealth to defend yourself and do damage -- but the way it is actually played out is now totally different.
IMO the Saboteuer and the Scoundrel is almost ready. The 'wildcard' now, is how the Executioner is going to play out. If it retains the one-shot mega-damage capacity, but is still easy to survive with it, then the balance would be still threatened. If not, then we're almost ready to go live.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
^This, but tbh i dont know what they are gonna do with the TR, if they want to remove perma TR sure need dmg, and gapclosers. But Nem3ziss u also saw how insanly OP TRs are atm on preview server. If this goes live the forums will be flooded with tears and beg to get mod2 sentinel back rather then this new TRs
The whole point of the stealth changes IMO, is to prevent people from spamming at-wills from stealth, so to speak.
People still keep on clinging to the old memories, the old method of hopping around and flinging DF everywhere in stealth, but that's exactly what the new changes are here to force us out of. DF is a powerful tool. Being able to fling that around to full extent from stealth is basically dealing a TR's maximal sustained damage while receiving both the largest amount of offense buffs (coming from CA and stealth-related direct damage buffs) as well as staying in total safety, obscurement to the mobs in PvE.
Personally, I support a slight increase in base/default stealth duration, and I am also positive about perhaps lower stealth drain per at-will attack, but anything that would allow a full activation of DF from stealth, basically defeats the purpose of the changes themselves.
There is a reason they gave us back-to-stealth tools to Sabs, and CCs to Scoundrels. It is meant for us to use it, so that we can maximize damage through use of offensive encounters more, and then use those tools to return to stealth to defend ourselves. Unlike before, we cannot do both at the same time, and that is why more judgement and thinking is required as to at which times you want to blow out stealth for damage, and at which times to stay in it quitely to buy time for recharges, heals, etc..
By asking to revert (or at least partially revert) back to the old stealth paradigm where you could spam at-wills from stealth, it does nothing but reward passive and bland style of gameplay, in the name of so-called "DPS".
If people want a passive, stationary DPS dealer so they can just stay in one spot and push buttons in a certain order to gain higher numbers, then that's not a job for the TR. DPS is important no doubt, but a TR's role should not be confined to DPS, and the whole problem with the PvE aspect concerning a TR's role/position in a party never had anything to do with DPS anyway.
It's the simple mob-damage-kill aspect of the content in game that makes HRs or TRs neglected, not because they lack DPS. It's something that should be catered to by pressuring the developers to come up with more creative dungeon content that accommodates to different roles -- not by giving the class easy-mode damage tools.
[EDIT: For example, a powerful boss or mini-boss level mob with a lot faster "red circle" type attacks that are quite difficult to evade (although not as powerful as the 1-shot attacks some bosses have, and would probably take out maybe 15~20k HP per attack) because it has either a superbly large radius, or a very difficult pattern... but the boss itself can be effected by CCs, but with very high resistance and lasts shortly. In this case, the GWFs or CWs could cater to the problem by using their own CCs, but now, the Scoundrel TR has the most number of short, tactical CCs to use -- in which case the TR could be the "silencer" role appointed to stopping the CC activation everytime by utilizing such CCs -- since CWs/GFs have a longer recharge time with each CC.
Or, henchmen mobs with certain amount of CC resistance, or even high resistance to magic-based attacks that spawn with powerful lieutenant grade mob, which are smarter in their aggro judgement so that it quickly identifies the squishier classes often -- in which case these mobs would resort to ganging up on the DCs or the CWs more often. Hence, the party's GF or GWF needs to grab aggro on the toughest mob, while the TR moves in to support the CW or the DC.
In both cases the "DPS" is not the issue. It's what the TR can do during that specific situation that matters. Currently our dungeon content is not "intelligent" enough and most mob action logic/programming is very simple, as well as they are susceptible to CCs and all types of attacks and are quite weak. The tougher, higher-level CWs can simply face-tank a few of them if they break aggro and gang up, just sweep them up in one CC and bam, dispatch all of them quickly. Things are "casual" in the game, and sometimes just too casual.
It is in that sense, neglected classes like TRs or HRs can get a role -- not by trying to contend with heavy-defense, high-damage melees in the DPS category by asking to get easy immunities and longer stealth, so they can sit behind the mob and just oush Q, E, R, and spam DF in one spot.]
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I think the biggest issue is providing both the security of longer stealth and added damage while in stealth. When stealthed, being able to attack without being seen is benefit enough (as under the current stealth schematic). If you want to add significant bonuses to damage from stealth, then stealth needs to end sooner, rather than later. As it stands, 100% crit chance from stealth necessitates a shorter stealth, or, at least, one that ends upon attack. A lower crit chance + general damage buff would require shorter stealth and draining upon attacking at the very least (as your target is bound to notice you, were it real life).
Really, the issue goes down to the debate on the purpose of stealth. The way I see it, there are two camps:
I fall into the 2nd camp and, having played D&D from 2.0 through pathfinder and various MMOs, I find that the role of stealth has indeed shifted slightly from the latter to the former. Regardless of position, though, there are penalties when attempting to enter stealth in combat - attacks of opportunity, higher fail chance, etc., but nowhere does it have both traits completely.
Now, I realize that this is an mmo, which is part of the reason stealth mechanics are difficult to execute. Honestly, the best stealth mechanics I've seen have been in single-player games, in which one has to pay constant attention to one's target and surroundings to avoid notice (i.e. premature ending of stealth) and stealth ends upon attack, notably "The Hobbit" (early 00's) and Kingdoms of Amalur. This mechanic would be a pain to implement, especially for PvP, which is why it doesn't exist in this state.
So, to sum, I think stealth should either be extended longer, with no major penalty for at-wills (maybe some slight breakage/fuzzing while attacking, for PvP's sake), which is the current system we are trying to move away from, or be given moderate to significant damage benefits, but ends shortly after attacking, which is where we're moving towards. Regardless, I don't think re-entering stealth in combat should be as easy as it currently is (looking at SS and Sab tree in particular).
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
I think this is a brilliant suggestion regarding stamina replenishment mechanic.
I would prefer dodges more similar to HR (backflip/handspring animation), but this may be too OP'd & unpredictable for other classes to play against. Backflip>encounter>backflip>encounter>backflip>encounter>stealth.... rinse & repeat... that would be practically invincible.
Feedback: Bait and switch
when we drop bait and switch we should get some type of immunity for 2 seconds.
i kinda agree with this. main issue with fighting outside of stealth is that all of our main targets beat us in mobility and extra dodges helps us deal with the fact that we are always focus-fired.
only other things necessary is maybe a feat that slows anyone we daze (better than running faster since you can't run while using at-wills), instant-daze from smoke bomb, faster at-wills, or the ability to use at-wills while moving
It is still my opinion all powers that are associated with "movement", such as the back-rolling BnS, back-shifting Blitz, teleporting VP and teleporting Deft Strike, need dodge/IMMUNITY frames built into it like Fox's Shift the HRs have. It would increase the utility and tactical worth of these powers a great deal IMO.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The 2.5% (rank 5/5) Life Steal does not apply to Life Steal stat. I get the same LS as before.
Could we consider removing that mechanic, and/ or adding a new mechanic? Something that allows us to consistently regain stealth, as a tactical option. Such as;
At-wills will now regain 15% of your stealth meter when used from out of stealth.
This should let us be able to actually weave in and out of stealth, versus the current state on preview; where you stealth, hit something, then try to DPS everything down before it kills you. Unless you go Saboteur tree, or slot Shadow Strike, there is no reliable way to go back into stealth mid-combat. Which makes the whole defining class mechanic thing kinda lousy (though still not as bad as GF's).
Also, while I'm appreciative of the buffs to AOE potential, it still seems like our single target damage is lacking. Burst could be useful in PVP, but the heavies in PVE are significantly beefier (and other classes just do it better). What I'd like to see is potent sustained DPS. For example;
Duelist' Flurry bleeds now deal 1% of their targets maximum HP per stack.
In PVP, the damage shouldn't really change. In fact, it may be a bit lower, depending on your gear. Even all ten stacks would only range from 2k (target with 20k HP) to 5k (target with 50K HP). But in PVE... it'd be quite a different story. We may actually become the boss burners we used to be.
Otherwise, I feel like most folks have hit the other concerns. I'm a bit bummed that the Scoundrel tree is still pretty squishy, but I think we were all spoiled by the whole Aspect of the Lone Wolf/ Wilds Medicine synergy.
I would even go far as to say Dazing Strike should get a 0.5sec one as well.
Smokebomb, Dazing Strike(the new, super-wide AoE/cone version), any other options that impede enemy action, buying you time and safety for that precious 4~5 seconds until you refill stealth, or recharge SS.
I can solo 1~2 man HE in IWD at a quite fast speed, never losing more than 30% HP with just VP/DS/SS + CoS/DHS setup, and I'm not even a Sab. With the same setting I can fight against the 3~5 man HE mobs (the tougher ones) 3~5 at a given time.
It's all about management, timing, and coming up with stealth rotations that fit the new and improved powers. For example WK has now actually vastly improved even in PvE, thanks to the changes with DHS, damage boosts with Scoundrel feats, and the new and improved Advantageous Position class feature that allows you to retain combat advantage upto 6 seconds out of stealth -- meaning: DF used with a WK will land you that 15~20% higher damage from CA even when stealth expires along the way (although other stealth related damage buffs won't apply, this means now WK builds actually have the highest damage potential when using DF).
Everything I learned, it came from testing the new changes thoroughly, and thinking out of the box -- the moment I saw the change notes posted by gentlemancrush I realized the old method wouldn't work. Hence, I spent my time trying to come up with somethiong that would be viable under the new changes, not waste it trying to use old and out-dated methods with a new and different mechanic.
I sincerely recommend my fellow TRs look to the future. If it doesn't work anymore, discard it guys. Don't hold on to it.
No need to revert to the old ways, nor do we need an at-will regenerating stealth. If anything that totally defeats the purpose of the changes in the first place. Consistently regaining stealth -- we call that "Saboteuer". Alternately, if you can't do that, there are ways to keep the enemeis at bay and minimize incoming damage until you buy enough time. We call that one "Scoundrel". Both are completely viable with any solo-play content. The only thing the new TRs cannot do, is do ridiculous stuff like solo dungeon bosses or 5-man HE boss spawns by abusing the old perma.
That's where you're wrong. With no disrepect, you just haven't found the way to do it yet.
If you want potent sustained damage, come to WK. As a WK now I can put up a 3~4k Disheartening Strike on mobs without using First Strike, that ticks for 15 seconds, easily racking upto over 25k damage done on mutiple mobs.
This is just the thing I am trying to say. I'm assuming you're still with the old MI style. But now, WKs can actually do some things better. You can't learn about this stuff unless you think out of the box and go 'wild' with experimenting everytime chance is given, like with the current preview/testing phase.
With a WK, I put up higher consistent, sustained DPS than I ever could before. I survive with no problems at all, and I'm not one of those 20k GS TRs with 45k HP. My GS is now barely over 17k, power is merely 5k. That's still enough for me to very easily solo 1~2man IWD HEs in the preview, easily fight 4~5 PvP zone AB/TT guardian, wizard, rogue adds.
Word of advice: Scoundrel is as tough as you can manage your daze rotations. Both in PvP and PvE. I haven't seen how you play so I would just assume it, and judging by what you have mentioned here. Again, with no disrespectful intent, I sincerely would like to say that there are a lot of things you still haven't discovered about the new TR changes.
It's got a lot of potential waiting to be discovered by you. Don't give up friend, and don't give in to "can't do it without the old-style stealth" temptations, because you can do it. Its completely possible, and viable. If you're having some troubles, post a vid in the Thieve's Den. I will try my best to help you wtih adjusting to the new changes.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This! The dmg is way! too high for TRs while perma stealth is still quite possible. Also some of the proposed improvements from player feedback a way over the top.
You should either have great dmg and short stealth or long stealth and low dmg. Not both high dmg, perma stealth and, following some feedback here nearly perma immunity through dodges and skills.
Fully agree on this point. I think there's an aspect of wanting some GWF/GF hybrid with TR spike abilities, being able to faceroll or avoid being hit while dealing massive damage. It's the same issue seen in GWF forums and GF forums as classes want to have both aspects in one, rather than having to choose.
In this case, as I said before, we're running a stealth which offers substantial damage benefits, so of course it's going to end shorter, preventing players from abusing it. The live stealth tends towards the long, bonus-less stealth.
The main issue is that the change in gameplay for stealth-reliant players (which, in many cases, had become quite the niche build) has changed completely. No longer can a player camp out in stealth flinging attacks willy-nilly. Now, in PTS, you have to plan your stealth for best effect or, if you want extended stealth, work your powers to give the required results, instead of stealthing passively.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
http://imgur.com/z7MxuXv
I don't ever want to hear anyone complain about TR future changes and higher damage now..
Click the link to see full picture...
This is also why we don't need more artifact items in game!
mod 4 gwf hitting me for 40k damage is madness!!!
I'm not saying he needs a nerf, but I am saying no more artifact belts , rings, cloaks, weapons.
This is not a bug, it's actually WAI. The bonus is added directly to your "health gained from damage" stat so that it's fair and even for everyone. This is much better than giving everyone only 2.5% of however much of the life steal stat they have
“Ambusher's Haste” and “Shadowy Opportunity” – the piercing damage only activates when I have points on the two feats at the same time.
Bug: Scoundrel
Skullcracker dazes myself when I activate Lurker Assault daily
Feedback:
Give whisperknife some at-will that don't drain stealth. Whisperknife path is currently useless and don't contribute nothing to the variety of builds in game.
Reduce the stealth drain to 5% per at-will hit. Currently it drains so fast that we can't coordinate a single at-will spawn when we are under attack. The stealth drain from getting attacked and the drain for the at-will spawn makes stealth disappear in 2 seconds.
We need more survivability. The ITC changes are killing us to fast. Whisperknife was further without useless without some ITC and at-will from that can be used stealth.
We just can’t survive a CW or a GWF whitout stealth.,so please make us more resintent. And give us more control options. Makes smoke bomb a stun encounter and give the skill some damage.
Improves sly flourish cast speed. The at-will became useless without the scoundrel feat.
“Shadowy Opportunity” piercing damage must procs out of stealth to.
I fell the TR don’t have enough damage boost in comparison to CW or GWF.
Sorry for my terrible english...
I keep seeing people say that "with the availability of longer duration stealth there should be less damage, and with less duration stealth there should be more damage"...
Hello? Has anyone been on PTS lately? Saboteur currently has both the longest available stealth along with the ability to enter stealth far, far more frequently and the best damage capabilities of the three specs. The other two should be brought up to par, and if not, then what is the point of this "rework"? To make Saboteur the new replacement for Executioner on live?
I'm sorry, but Stealth availability is too low for the two remaining specs. it may not need as large of a buff as I suggested, but it does need one, without question.
Current Saboteur has more than enough duration already. Increasing the duration slightly, reducing the crit rate to 50% and adding in a decent damage buff would not make it OP... it would actually knock Saboteur down a peg in damage, and allow the other two specs to catch up a little. It might even have the potential to make Executioner the top damage dealer it should be, with Sab closely behind and Scoundrel at the bottom.
I tend to think that the hierarchy should be: Executioner in 1st place for Pure Damage, then Scoundrel in 2nd for Moderate Damage and Utility and finally Saboteur in 3rd for Moderate Damage and Stealth.
That said, I do agree with many of your points. But most often, in this game, I'll use stealth as a means to gain Combat Advantage for building back AP after using a daily. As a solo PvE player, it can often be difficult to gain combat advantage without using stealth or having a companion out to flank the enemy, and currently on PTS our only feat to increase AP gain is tied to having Combat Advantage... which means that the current function of stealth on PTS will, among other things, make using dailies far less frequent for any non-Saboteur spec who can't stay in or re-enter stealth anywhere near as often.
There are most definitely ways around this to make stealth more available to Scoundrel or Executioner, but those ways all involve selecting specific powers and/or class features and/or feats in order to do it. In the end we'd just be imitating Saboteur, so why bother to go any route other than Sab in that case? after all, they have all the stealth, and all the damage. Saboteur is for Mod5 what Executioner currently is on live. The single most recognized "best" spec that the majority will gravitate towards.
Just to be clear, I don't actually have a big problem with the current Saboteur spec. Actually I like it, it's been fun to play in my testing of it. I do however, have a big problem with the fact that the other two specs are lagging drastically behind it. I have a problem that Scoundrel is supposed to be the "tough, more survivable spec" and has to use two specs for increased life steal (on top of having 3 more for deflect and only one for control effects) instead of damage, and yet both Sab and Exe with their damage specs can heal more from life steal than Scoundrel.
Hmm... I hear you on that, especially in your idea of where the damage rankings should be and on how much Sab is getting boosted from being able to stay in the heavily buffed stealth.
As far as AP goes? I will miss scoundrel's action gain feat. end of story. Though I have to wonder if hitting on CCed enemies counts for CA, because, if so, then the smokebomb + dazing scoundrel (what I use for IWD HEs) could regen AP very quickly.
I agree on the pointlessness of the redundant lifesteal and deflect feats. Scoundrel should be the versatile one who stacks effects through dirty fighting and, as such, shouldn't need stealth as much. As a result, I've been running a hybrid on PTS to give me the T1 crit severity and T2 DR debuff of exe (I really would like for something like catspaw style to return). Consolidating the deflect and lifesteal feats (which really are pennies in the overall bucket) into one substantial feat each would be more beneficial. Also, see my response earlier to kweassa's suggestion of deflect builds stamina (don't really like that, but agree some of the excess should be swapped out). Executioner's still got the short end of the stick as spike damage doesn't make for a good fight with someone who happens to have multiple HDs' worth of health.
So, yes. stealth is a sticky issue, what with it having serious benefits, but one feat tree tailored to milk stealth more, which results in that one spec over-damaging the other two.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Smoke Bomb is still working too well; it is dazing everything inside the cloud, myself included. This is obviously not WAI and is hampering gameplay as the effect of using SB is, essentially, nullified
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Problem: TR now gets most of its damage from stealth which works for sab tree (this one is going well), however exec and scoundrel are forced to slot SS to be able to get the most out of these changes.
It is certainly different from the others. I don't mind it being different, though, but it still needs to be sorted out more. For the executioner it feels like you should not even use stealth except to follow with lashing or another encounter and it goes so fast that you cannot play around (except maybe move a little bit) as trying an attack or two before your encounter can waste the stealth.
- TR is permanently in stealth while moving, out of fight.
- the moment you attack, you are out of stealth
- More dodges and tricks to stun/ mess up targeting (clones) to increase survivability. ITC as cc immunity and damage reduction (no full immunity). More dodges for more 'proactive' survival
- obviously more damage with crit and high spikes
- cannot re-enter stealth for 10 seconds after being in combat (to avoid easy escapes)
-one path being the current perma with more stealth but dots/ low damage dispatched over time (kind of low damage 'tank'/harrasser). The closer you are to target, the longer stealth lasts. When you get far, stealth drains fast to avoid easy escape and force skillful evading gameplay while in combat, avoiding cheap tactics like attack-get away-attack endlessly. Gap closer sort of marauder rush so TR can get close to ranged classes and engage in close combat. Per ma style but in mele e range with no in-out play. You decide to fight, you can't get away as you please.
Scoundrel needs either a further Lifesteal boost or a DPS boost. IMO it's filling a similar role to the Combat HR and should have comparable performance. Currently this is not the case.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I think more survivality is needed.