So you say perma is stronger than ever, and yet the mechanic that makes perma so strong doesn't need a nerf?
Absolutely not need ItC for perma. As usual, just no place (BoS, Shadow Stike, Path of blades). If devs want nerf perma - can just nerf BoS. W/o BoS just no time to refill stealth meter.
feedback
Gloaming cut does not take 15% of stealth meter but restores 10% of stealth if you spec into it. I thought one of the reason for the huge dps buff to tr was because "fighting perma-stealth took way to much skills?" Also getting hit by at at-will for 7k to 14k if they have first strike up. it isn't really a good balance for pvp, especially with the infinite dodge in stealth. So basically perma-stealth is now stronger than ever.
The nerf to impossible to catch was not needed.
Permanent stealth may not be gone, but they made sure it's easier to fight against, now that I think about it. GC doesn't fill stealth per hit, it does it when you kill. In PvP, that's not exactly a lot. Furthermore, GC is a melee attack... no more hurled knives from a distance not knowing where to look for whoever is targeting you. If you're being hit and can't see where from, it's either a ranged class you can see, or a stealth TR which you can see after a bit of AoE damage.
You might also run into the PoB build as stated above, but with the 33% decrease in damage per target, I doubt PoB will be too effective if you slot some PvP pots.
I don't know why but I do not get bonuses from exec tree after respec, I deal literally same ammount (or a bit less) than on live while I should be doing roughly additional 100% damage for first attack from stealth by Shadowborn
also I was sparring with 17k CW who had 30% DR and somehow my Impact shot dealt 4760 dmg from crit while it has 4388 base damage shown in tooltip (first shot from stealth for testing purposes) and perhaps I don't understand how mathematics work but with her's 30% DR and mine 17% ignored from ArmPen + Exposed Weakness 25% +15% crit sev from arterial cut + 100% from shadowborn + G.vorp severity I should do ~8776 from shadowborn only but adding all crit severity to it it would be 12k+
Can someone explain to me how does this even work?
This is a silly thing but I really believe that the dodge for the TR should be him fading into darkness and appearing few feets later almost like the Control Wizard. Also I think that it consume too much strenght.
Only a short question: Will the new changes hit the preview server this weekend?
I want do a proper testing
Edit: Couldn't wait for a short feedback Some suggestions of the current Testing: Gloaming Cut
I would appreciate if gloaming cut had a little bit shorter cast time. Something between 5-10%, it sometimes feel awkward slow (and a bit hard to time). Another request would be if gloaming cut could have a small AoE. The TR makes a big powerfull gesture with his arms but only hits one monster. It could be the small AoE Burst you are looking for.
Bug?: Gloaming Cut doesn't regenerate the stealth while killed an enemy if i was hit by an enemy. I mean, i am out of stealth, it starts regenerating, i get a hit by an enemy monster, i lose a bit of the upcoming stealthmeter and it stops to regenerate. If i kill now the monster while under "stealth depression/stop" i don't gain any stealth to my stealth meter.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
I would prefer no at will stealth drain, however if they leave it in then 15% is too much, bring it down to 5% or something as we still use stealth to get into position to use all our new feats.
tried out the scoundrel feats, but still waiting on the newer changes. i was right, preview scoundrel is stronger than live executioner since i can do 25-30k damage from just a 2 encounter combo. only downside is the 15 sec timer on skullcracker.
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callofkutuluMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 56Arc User
edited October 2014
Not liking the new changes at all... never was a perma-steath but our survivability is gone now. I am not close to BIS but I do with what I have and am a 15.5k TR. Doing IWD heroics on live I can sneak in DF / LB, ItC away CoS, SS and rinse repeat. On preview I run for my life until they catch me and turn me into a TR smudge.
I don't want to have to grind out other toons to play, I friggin hate grinding. GWF, SW, HR easy mode... I don't want easy mode, I want fun. I want to feel the power of the character and that after a Heroic, or Skirmish or dungeon that the party benefited by my being there and that the DPS we brought was not to be missed.
Maybe you could make it so that the traps in the dungeon cant be detected or avoided by anyone other than a TR and all resulted in insta-death, also the end chests can't be opened without first clearing the trap. Then TR might be useful to have along. It is all just very depressing as a TR now. I clearly picked the wrong class to invest my time in, same **** mistake as playing a warlock in wow.
tried out the scoundrel feats, but still waiting on the newer changes. i was right, preview scoundrel is stronger than live executioner since i can do 25-30k damage from just a 2 encounter combo. only downside is the 15 sec timer on skullcracker.
i dont think the 15 sec cooldowns on capstones are in effect yet, infact i think they are being updated right now
Why not rescind the extra dodge distance, but give rogues a 2 second window in which they can freely second dodge without stamina cost, and have that second dodge be that extra distance. That way a rogue could dodge out and dodge back in from a red AE with the same cost, and if the extra dodge is used to dodge away twice, well then that is what you the dev wanted for distance in the first place. No harm no foul.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Afternoon all! We have a lot of bug fixes and performance changes to address much of the feedback in this thread, but I want to touch on a few of the following changes in more detail.
First up, Dodging. Dodging is awesome, and should feel good. Period. Full Stop. Therefore, in line with the goal of trying to make rogues feel more slippery and mobile on the battlefield (and compensate for their weaker defenses when their tools are down) we are making a big change to their dodges.
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%).
Not active yet
We feel this provides a lot more defensive options to a rogue and lets them reset the fight (or move rapidly out of range if they need to), and take better control of their positioning.
Next up is Dazing Strike. This skill is problematic because it is so hard to land against quickly moving foes or targets not focused on you. Add to that the fact that Rogue AoE doesn't have a lot of strong options in the kit and this felt like a good place to make some interesting changes.
Trickster Rogue: Dazing Strike: Now always activates at the same speed as stealth and should hit targets far more consistently.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Dazing Strike: Now strikes in a large cone in front of you.
This will make Dazing Strike just feel faster and more consistent, and also adds a solid AoE CC to rogues. Active and working very well!
Final big change we wanted to touch on is a hefty change to Path of the Blade. We generally like the idea behind this power, sacrificing burst for some sustained DPS that hits random targets, but it was never really designed to be a huge single target DPS increase. Therefore we are spreading its damage out to more targets but making it less potent on a single target.
Trickster Rogue: Path of the Blade: Now hits 3 targets each tick (up from 1) and deals roughly 33% of its original damage.
This provides Rogues another good AoE option. Active and working very well!
In addition to these major changes, we have lots of bugfixes and performance increases for things that were underperforming. Full notes below and in the OP.
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%). Not active
Trickster Rogue: First Strike: Now provides 30% bonus damage at rank 1 (down from 33%) and provides an additional 15% when ranking it up (down from 33%). Active
Trickster Rogue: Dazing Strike: Now always activates at the same speed as stealth and should hit targets far more consistently.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Dazing Strike: Now strikes in a large cone in front of you.
Trickster Rogue: Path of the Blade: Now hits 3 targets each tick (up from 1) and deals roughly 33% of its original damage.
Trickster Rogue: Deft Strike: Now slows targets for 80% (up from 60%) for 5 seconds (up from 3 seconds).
Trickster Rogue: Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks to 3 (instead of 5).
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: This power has now been correctly reduced by 10% instead of 60%.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: The first portion of this power can now be activated while moving. The followup portion of this power now activates substantially faster.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Cooldown reduced to 12 seconds (down from 16).
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Razor Action: Damage increased by a further 200%.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Advantageous Position: Now provides 20% resistance (up from 10%) and now lasts for 2 seconds per rank (up from 1).
Trickster Rogue: Sabotuer: Shady Preparations: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
Trickster Rogue: Saboteur: Knife's Edge: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
Trickster Rogue: Saboteur: One with the Shadows: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Concussive Strikes: Now dazes the target for .5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds (up from .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second)
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Base daze increased to 4 seconds (up from 2 seconds). Total maximum increased to 6 seconds (up from 4 seconds).
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Now also grants 25% increased move speed.
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
Trickster Rogue: Executioner: Shadow of Demise: Shadow of Demise can no longer activate itself and can only be applied to a single target.
Trickster Rogue: Executioner: Shadow of Demise: Now correctly only triggers on Encounter Powers.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
PS: Please keep the conversation civil. This thread is for feedback only, and if you would like to discuss the changes outside that feedback take it to another thread.
EDIT: These changes will be hitting preview sometime this week, but are not yet up for testing.
Changes tested in GREEN I love the changes tested so far in green, I see that you ninja fixed the bug that made sab skills damage us and allies.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Permanent stealth may not be gone, but they made sure it's easier to fight against, now that I think about it. GC doesn't fill stealth per hit, it does it when you kill. In PvP, that's not exactly a lot. Furthermore, GC is a melee attack... no more hurled knives from a distance not knowing where to look for whoever is targeting you. If you're being hit and can't see where from, it's either a ranged class you can see, or a stealth TR which you can see after a bit of AoE damage.
You might also run into the PoB build as stated above, but with the 33% decrease in damage per target, I doubt PoB will be too effective if you slot some PvP pots.
With the feat "sneaky stabber", 10% stealth is refilled on every hit of GC. I'll be honest, I've been using gloaming cut since BEFORE the nerf to COS from 12 charges to 8. People say GC is slow or is hard to use, I'll be destroying people in PVP with GC if these changes hit live, I already use GC more than DF in PVP on live.
In any case something that needs to be addressed is that on the preview server every at-will besides GC is completely useless. A simple fix to remedy this would be to reduce the stealth drain from 15% to 5% or less, I feel that 3% would be more appropriate. At 3% a full DF would still drain 36% or more stealth, add the time it takes to activate it and that's a substantial drain compared to the full 2 flurries I can perform from stealth now.
Still, I've been doing some brain storming and thought of some other changes that could be made if they want to keep the 15% drain.
Gloaming cut, Sly flourish, duelist flurry : When using these melee at-will powers the rogue receives a +20% parry bonus to deflection and a 5% parry bonus to deflection severity.
Duelist flurry : The first 2 strikes of this power now activate 40% faster, furthermore the bleed effect can stack up to 30 times.
Sly flourish : The 3rd and fourth strikes of this power now hit in an AOE arc similar to wicked reminder
Cloud of steel : Damage from this power now no longer increases per successive hit, COS now has no charges and can now truly be used......... at-will.
Disheartening strike : This power now deal the majority of it's damage up front and dwindles over time. Example - Current version = base damage first tick, base damage 2nd tick, base damage 3rd tick....... base damage 15th tick.
New version = base damage x3 first tick......... base damage x 0.2 15th tick
Changes like these would make each at-will functional without stealth and fill different utility roles. I'd love some feedback on my brainstorming please!
I don't want to comment on the efficacy of the new changes until there is significant feedback from testing. However, from an overview type of perspective, this seems rushed and half-assed. There are some great seeds but it doesn't seem as if there has been a comprehensive rework which is what's needed. These are band-aids when the arm is broken. Increased damage is great. Different playstyle trees is great. Reduced ability to stealth is great. Dying continually will suck.
There is no addressing the key issue for a TR out of stealth ... survivability. Perhaps we are not being told background details? If so, please tell us. Do we get an increased base hit point pool? Increased base AC? I will say that if nothing is done to improve the movement mechanics of a TR, I'll be done. I've never been a perma and have had excellent success at both PVE and PVP. I did so by speccing and using artifacts that allowed me more stamina and a psuedo extra dodge roll. It's a lifesaver. Even the simple addition of an extra dodge would be major. If there are no feats for assisting stamina refill, this is all wasted.
The most asinine thing about being a TR is that if your stealth runs out and you try to escape you can be run down and finished off by all classes, except a DC who wouldn't bother. Makes zero sense that a lumbering GF in plate armor and carrying a huge shield can chase you down and kill you. Part of a TRs baseline story is to hit and run. Leather armor, less defense but high speed and manueverability ... duh. I don't know about everyone else but I run like molasses going uphill in January.
The point is that so far I see 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean. It's only a good start.
Change speed and manueverability or it's going to be like that John Daly country song ....
"I hit it hard man, so hard man.
I slice my daggers, but then I pay.
But ain't Neverwinter s'posed to be that way?"
This is an absolutely perfect response. If you take away our stealth, then you must add some way for us to escape. We are just sitting ducks when our stealth runs out, which is what lead me to be a perma stealth TR in PVP. Please consider giving us something (CC, mobility, dodge) anything when out of stealth. I get that you may not want perma steath TR's. But give more ways to survive when out of stealth if you want to nerf the stealth.
I personally don't care about one hitting. I like the challenge and trying to time the DF in PVP. To me that's more fun than just a one shot kill. You have to work for it a little. I think 15% per at will strike is absolutely insane. Maybe a one time 15% stealth reduction per 5 sec when using an at will, or something like that. But 15% for each at will strike? ****. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
There definitely needs to be some balancing to the TR at wills. With the stealth extending capabilities of GS it should not also be the best in damage (I have not been able to fully test and parse so I cannot say that it is or not but some reported it was superior to DF while using a DF legendary weapon). I don't know how I feel about a TR attack having an AE at will, but if it did it seems that DF would be the better choice (make it split its flurry and bleed chance over the target area). Sly flourish would need a damage boost. Just ideas off the top of my head and nothing I am set in but I do realize that with the stealth changes and how GC is now that the issue needs to be addressed.
Hey devs, I love the new changes to dodge and some of the abilities but I have some major concerns regarding the executioner tree!
Arterial Cut: I feel like this feat doesn't belong in the execution tree because we have nothing to keep us in stealth and were a damage focused tree which means we aren't relying on stealth to give us our damage!
Grim Pleasure: I tested this feat and finds it only gives about a 1% damage boost so perhaps change it to something like "The rogue gets 50% of movement as power" This would be a much needed stat boost that could get us up to par in the evil Gear Score rating and its super unique which I thinks is awesome. I do like this feat and I don't mind if it changes or not but I certainly hold my ground that one of our feats needs to give us power as a percentage of another stat!
Vicious Pursuit: I really like this but since it doesn't stack on one target it seems like its not that rewarding to just focus down a boss in a fight. I think it would be awesome if it could be like a 20% chance of proc and it stacks 3 times.
Twister Grin: I really liked this feat at first but after testing it using combat tracker I found that its only giving me a 1% damage boost in Caverns of Karrundrax. Which makes it a very useless feat. I would suggest replacing this feat with a changed Overrun Critical/Critical Teamwork or a flat critical severity boost.
Last Moments: I like this feat a lot and I think its awesome that it gets a massive boost when in stealth because it can be used for sweet combos but I think that perhaps it also needs to gain a damage boost when in stealth because increasing the threshold is only going to be useful 30% of the time.
Exposed Weakness: I do not like the feat at all, my TR is only a 14k TR so he's not that amazing and he already has 22% armor penetration which means this feat would be useless for him. On top of that I feel like it wouldn't get used much at all, It could have synergy with twisted grin and shadow of demise but like I said, I really don't need the buff. I would love to see this feat be reverted back to Deadly Momentum.
Shadow Born: I like this feat and it has great synergy with Last moments and Shadow of Demise, don't see a need for change.
Shadow of Demise: I enjoy this feat and I think its got awesome synergy with many of the feats and to me it reflects what my TR pre mod 5 has always been about, deal good damage while out of stealth and then when in stealth deal large amounts of burst damage, I love it.
TL;DR
Change Arterial Cut because it doesn't boost our damage by much and is far more useful for saboteur.
Make Vicious Pursuit more rewarding when we are attacking a single target
Change Twisted Grin because it doesn't give a noticeable damage boost (1%)
Remove Exposed Weakness because TRs get a large amount of armor penetration from gear that it really makes no difference.
Bring back Deadly Momentum, this skill made hitting a single target feel extremely rewarding.
Give us something later in the tree that gives us a flat critical severity boost
Bring back Critical Teamwork or even Overrun Critical but scaled down
Add a gear score boost to any of the first feats, e.g. Gain power equal to 50% of movement
There definitely needs to be some balancing to the TR at wills. With the stealth extending capabilities of GS it should not also be the best in damage (I have not been able to fully test and parse so I cannot say that it is or not but some reported it was superior to DF while using a DF legendary weapon). I don't know how I feel about a TR attack having an AE at will, but if it did it seems that DF would be the better choice (make it split its flurry and bleed chance over the target area). Sly flourish would need a damage boost. Just ideas off the top of my head and nothing I am set in but I do realize that with the stealth changes and how GC is now that the issue needs to be addressed.
Hmmm, interesting response. To me flurry is as much a single target power as a power can be. First it locks on and tracks a single target. Secondly, it applies a bleed effect, which is ideal for taking out a single, tough target. Sly flourish on the other hand is a good aoe at-will because you can switch targets rapidly, and the animation already has some of the strikes connecting in arcs.
I've registered myself few moments ago. First off: i played quite some mmos before and started playing nw about two months ago. My playstyle naturally puts me into the rogue corner, Trickster Rogue respectively. I sucked in as much information as i could, with all the math, posts, patch history of past months and so on and jumped right into the game.
PvP
This is not a competitive PvP Game, but a game with PvP functionality. I started PvPing right after lvl 10 all the way to 60 into high gs branches. There is no real balance between the classes, let a lone a simple matchmaking system, which would prevent putting me or others 80% of the time vs players with a much higher gs (despite things like Vorpals not counting towards total GS - lel). This being said, this game has no competitive PvP, thus the idea of balancing classes around PvP is as ridiculous as building water dams in central Africa.
PvE
The TR doesn't feel like the class it should be. This class feels clunky and restricive during the movement around, between and towards targets. The way damage is applied is way to unresponsive and even buggy sometimes. I could go on for pages, but the end of the line is: the lack of mobility is not only blocking the fun of playing such a class but also handicapping the overall performance (dungeons, etc.) in relativity to other classes. Mechanics for gap closing, evading or general survivability are not only lacking but also a joke compared to other classes (well, maybe except clerics).
Upcoming changes:
Filling back some (!) damage to a damage oriented class is not a ****ing change, but a necessity. Acting like pulling off a revelation by puring damage into a dps class is like being surprised by cops in police station. I don't know how much your class designers get paid but if i would be your boss, i would fire your assess out of this universe.
This whole "trickster thing" is definitely not a balancing issue. It is business as usual like in other mmos, where devs mostly have their favorite class (probably cw here) or listen to all the 12 year olds who flood the forums with rivers of tears, because their fragile heart can't stand the fact that another class is able to nuke their asses into another dimension or be as good as them. Just remember the infinite cries of agony in early days of WoW, where all the kids spammed the forums "there be invisiblez roguezings, momy needs holdingz handz cuz i shat pants during playingz". Same here. CWs stading like the useless Eifel Tower they are in the middle of nowhere and "uh uh, i had to move, sorry, nerf stealth, cuz i need to see things which i nuke from 2Km away, otherwise this gaem is not balanced".
I don't know, what's more funny. The fact that tricksters will be still gimped, even if you pour damage over them or the fact that everyone acts like this is some kind of balancing issue.
** the 10/14 changes just prove my point. GFs, CWs running tears, just dropped a normal skill from 99% effectivity to 60%. Keep going.
Hmmm, interesting response. To me flurry is as much a single target power as a power can be. First it locks on and tracks a single target. Secondly, it applies a bleed effect, which is ideal for taking out a single, tough target. Sly flourish on the other hand is a good aoe at-will because you can switch targets rapidly, and the animation already has some of the strikes connecting in arcs.
Well I was just trying to follow up on what you posted and add something to it as I thought the at will issue needed to be discussed. I sort of hate the lock on of flurry (even though when it works right it is golden) as it has killed me more than any other thing in the game. I was just saying if an AE was considered and especially since sly we get earlier -- but as I said just speculation and I am not set one way or the other.
Edit: Couldn't wait for a short feedback Some suggestions of the current Testing: Gloaming Cut
I would appreciate if gloaming cut had a little bit shorter cast time. Something between 5-10%, it sometimes feel awkward slow (and a bit hard to time). Another request would be if gloaming cut could have a small AoE. The TR makes a big powerfull gesture with his arms but only hits one monster. It could be the small AoE Burst you are looking for.
Testing changes in preview and noticed that smoke bomb would daze me in addition to the mob. I don't know if this is just a scoundrel issue or if it's global, but it's not WAI.
1. very promising overall, especially Scoundrel's now really hip, a terror to any class without CC breakers
2. overall defense for all 3 trees still too weak, but Sab and Sco seems to have vastly improved
3. WKs are still hard pressed.. actually not about encounters or at-wills, but basic physical traits no contest...
3. the extra defense, and particularly movement speed MIs have or WKs alone makes it hard to cope with
4. dodge changes doesn't seem to have been implemented yet
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Testing changes in preview and noticed that smoke bomb would daze me in addition to the mob. I don't know if this is just a scoundrel issue or if it's global, but it's not WAI.
I noticed this as well. It seems to proc off of "concussive strikes". It doesn't happen every time which I guess is determined by if your smoke bomb crits or not(even if it does no damage). It also appears to affect allies. Was pretty funny to watch people scatter out of my smoke bomb lol.
I noticed this as well. It seems to proc off of "concussive strikes". It doesn't happen every time which I guess is determined by if your smoke bomb crits or not(even if it does no damage). It also appears to affect allies. Was pretty funny to watch people scatter out of my smoke bomb lol.
I haven't had a chance to run dungeons, just some lairs with a few different builds, so I'll hold off on analysis for now since soloing is almost as useless as training dummies for judging actual performance, though I'll make a few comments here:
Bug:
Dodge is not reducing properly on first usages. The first two take 50%; if you wait for the stamina meter to regain to about 1/3 you can dodge roll again. So it's... Somewhat working?
Oh, and as always, the TR walk animation is STILL bugged and missing. Since Mod 4 testing in July...
Thoughts:
So, I ran Death Forge since it was the Lair Of The Day in Dread Ring, and I'm bored with Biggrin's. I ran it four times with 4 different builds, all MI:
Saboteur with Exe dip for crit sev feat, all ability points in STR and CHA, First Strike/Skillful Infiltrator/Shadow Strike/Dazing Strike/Blitz/Gloaming Cut/Cloud of Steel/Whirlwind of Blades/Lurker's Assault
Identical Sab build/loadout with all points in DEX and STR.
Executioner with Sab dip, DEX/STR, FS/SI/SS/Lashing/Blitz/GC/CoS/WoB/LA
Live MI Executioner with Scoundrel dip, DEX/STR, FS/SI/SS/Lashing/Blitz/Duelist's Flurry/CoS/WoB/LA. As a note, my live build is missing a Power boon I took on Test, and I have Improved Cunning Sneak on live instead of the Disciple of Strength I'm using on live.
Each run was, other than different loadouts for different builds, done as close to the same as possible. (For the record that's not my usual live loadout, but for parity's sake I used the same Exe loadout as test.) The first run I only remembered to use my daily twice, so all subsequent runs I did the same thing and used it in the same places, for example. Didn't use Tymora's Coin or Invoking since those boosts are random and not consistently repeatable.
- Gloaming Cut is boring. Like, really super boring. It's too bad no other at-will is really currently viable. Even then it's only sort of viable for Executioner. If the stealth drain absolutely has to stay and can't be toned down in PvE for whatever stubborn reason, Duelist's Flurry needs to be faster, Sly Flourish needs to be AoE, Cloud of Steel needs to go back to 12 charges, and I don't play WK so IDK WTF Disheartening Strike needs. Cloud of Steel especially since it being used in perma stealth in PvP is why the charge number got nerfed in the first place.
- Charisma does basically nothing. I tried the exact same Saboteur build with 20 STR/23 DEX/20 CHA and my usual 20/27/16 and there was seriously no meaningful difference. The DEX/STR actually came out ahead in damage by about 150k.
- DEX/CHA Sab did the most damage on test. Executioner did the least; Sab class features mean you can open with Blitz, still be in stealth, and follow up with the now-execellent stealthed Dazing, which is I will admit a fantastic AoE combo. You're now a bad CW, congrats. ^_- Exe boss damage wasn't significantly different from Sab, which is kind of disappointing.
- By far the lowest was live test. This is not a surprise; everything dies in one or two hits except the boss on live already, but on live I don't have First Strike to do silly overdamage. It's a good illustration of how lack of spike damage and AoE hurts our standings in dungeon clearing up to bosses currently on live. I have no complaints here. It's overkill in Death Forge but in dungeons/skirmishes with AoE it'll make us much more useful.
Where it did pull ahead on live, and where I expected it to, was the boss. Overkilled her, unsurprisingly. Stealth DF bleeds her down quick on live. Jawbone is probably the shortest lived of Dread Ring lair bosses and obviously it's the same HP regardless so you don't see big differences here, but the trends in my experience translate out to groups and larger hitpoint pools - DF once going on live shreds things quite nicely.
- I honestly think I prefer Sab to Exe. Those big 49k unbuffed Lashing Blades are nice, but I think overall there might be a bit more long-term performance from Sab. I'll have to see if I can get a dungeon group together this weekend to run some real content with the different builds, though solo instances are much easier to control the circumstances of than parties. Sab also feels a little more... I don't know, skill-needing than current test Exe? Positioning is helpful/important instead of just 'run in and Blitz/LB'.
I'll give some more feedback after testing more. Oh, if you're bored, here are the screenshots of my parses of the DF runs:
I think with some reworked At-wills and at wills not depleting so much stealth per use ( preferably none) sab and scound will be really fun.
Exec is sooo boring to play.
While I personally agree with the stealth depletion, I'm currently thinking lowering the depletion rate down to around 7.5%(half) ~ 10% per attack might be a good compromise point.
Scoundrel is certainly very interesting now, with really powerful CC locks. With alternating, timed CC attacks from Concussive Strikes and Skull Cracker, its starting to show very good potential. For MI scoundrels I can see it becoming an incredibly speedy and fun way to play the game both for PvE and PvP.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So.. apart from the stealth deplete.... This is a very tough choice, ugh. All the 3 feat trees are good.
My burst was reduced since the First Strike nerf... might not be as effective as I thought it would be. But Exec still 1-shots squishies and Lashing takes away Half of geared player's health. Need to win a way to survive out of stealth with Exec.
Scoundrel is awesome.. I LOVE the new dazing strike and the Scoundrel's durability. And the chain CC's are fun.
But it's Scoundrel's tankiness that's impressing me. I let a geared GWF unleash a full rotation on me and it deflected everything, didn't even get below 90%. And when below 40%, a GF's Anvil of Doom doesn't 1-shot you like it usually does.
And Saboteur is the stealth tree and is pretty lethal., pretty sure there will be new meta builds once mod5 hits.
Nope, doesn't fix the bug with dodge. Both of the Sab Veldrins were full respecs done today, and a third one existed as well with a feat distribution I didn't like. (Complete with the 'joys' of reassigning all 81 power points on each copy).
naicalus is right. Dodge changes haven't been implemented yet. Either that, or bugged out.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Comments
If devs want nerf perma - can just nerf BoS. W/o BoS just no time to refill stealth meter.
Diana (15,4 DC)
BigHalf (15,5 GF)
Permanent stealth may not be gone, but they made sure it's easier to fight against, now that I think about it. GC doesn't fill stealth per hit, it does it when you kill. In PvP, that's not exactly a lot. Furthermore, GC is a melee attack... no more hurled knives from a distance not knowing where to look for whoever is targeting you. If you're being hit and can't see where from, it's either a ranged class you can see, or a stealth TR which you can see after a bit of AoE damage.
You might also run into the PoB build as stated above, but with the 33% decrease in damage per target, I doubt PoB will be too effective if you slot some PvP pots.
also I was sparring with 17k CW who had 30% DR and somehow my Impact shot dealt 4760 dmg from crit while it has 4388 base damage shown in tooltip (first shot from stealth for testing purposes) and perhaps I don't understand how mathematics work but with her's 30% DR and mine 17% ignored from ArmPen + Exposed Weakness 25% +15% crit sev from arterial cut + 100% from shadowborn + G.vorp severity I should do ~8776 from shadowborn only but adding all crit severity to it it would be 12k+
Can someone explain to me how does this even work?
~ Adam | Trickster Rogue | Master Infiltrator Saboteur
~ Essence | Hunter Ranger | Pathfinder Trapper
~ Veyl | Scourge Warlock | Soulbinder Fury
~ Abel | Trickster Rogue | Master Infiltrator Executioner
Waiting for DRUID and MONK!
I want do a proper testing
Edit: Couldn't wait for a short feedback
Some suggestions of the current Testing: Gloaming Cut
I would appreciate if gloaming cut had a little bit shorter cast time. Something between 5-10%, it sometimes feel awkward slow (and a bit hard to time). Another request would be if gloaming cut could have a small AoE. The TR makes a big powerfull gesture with his arms but only hits one monster. It could be the small AoE Burst you are looking for.
Bug?: Gloaming Cut doesn't regenerate the stealth while killed an enemy if i was hit by an enemy. I mean, i am out of stealth, it starts regenerating, i get a hit by an enemy monster, i lose a bit of the upcoming stealthmeter and it stops to regenerate. If i kill now the monster while under "stealth depression/stop" i don't gain any stealth to my stealth meter.
I don't want to have to grind out other toons to play, I friggin hate grinding. GWF, SW, HR easy mode... I don't want easy mode, I want fun. I want to feel the power of the character and that after a Heroic, or Skirmish or dungeon that the party benefited by my being there and that the DPS we brought was not to be missed.
Maybe you could make it so that the traps in the dungeon cant be detected or avoided by anyone other than a TR and all resulted in insta-death, also the end chests can't be opened without first clearing the trap. Then TR might be useful to have along. It is all just very depressing as a TR now. I clearly picked the wrong class to invest my time in, same **** mistake as playing a warlock in wow.
i dont think the 15 sec cooldowns on capstones are in effect yet, infact i think they are being updated right now
scoundrel is since i have to wait for skullcracker to return after i use my 1st encounter
Why not rescind the extra dodge distance, but give rogues a 2 second window in which they can freely second dodge without stamina cost, and have that second dodge be that extra distance. That way a rogue could dodge out and dodge back in from a red AE with the same cost, and if the extra dodge is used to dodge away twice, well then that is what you the dev wanted for distance in the first place. No harm no foul.
Changes tested in GREEN
I love the changes tested so far in green, I see that you ninja fixed the bug that made sab skills damage us and allies.
With the feat "sneaky stabber", 10% stealth is refilled on every hit of GC. I'll be honest, I've been using gloaming cut since BEFORE the nerf to COS from 12 charges to 8. People say GC is slow or is hard to use, I'll be destroying people in PVP with GC if these changes hit live, I already use GC more than DF in PVP on live.
In any case something that needs to be addressed is that on the preview server every at-will besides GC is completely useless. A simple fix to remedy this would be to reduce the stealth drain from 15% to 5% or less, I feel that 3% would be more appropriate. At 3% a full DF would still drain 36% or more stealth, add the time it takes to activate it and that's a substantial drain compared to the full 2 flurries I can perform from stealth now.
Still, I've been doing some brain storming and thought of some other changes that could be made if they want to keep the 15% drain.
Gloaming cut, Sly flourish, duelist flurry : When using these melee at-will powers the rogue receives a +20% parry bonus to deflection and a 5% parry bonus to deflection severity.
Duelist flurry : The first 2 strikes of this power now activate 40% faster, furthermore the bleed effect can stack up to 30 times.
Sly flourish : The 3rd and fourth strikes of this power now hit in an AOE arc similar to wicked reminder
Cloud of steel : Damage from this power now no longer increases per successive hit, COS now has no charges and can now truly be used......... at-will.
Disheartening strike : This power now deal the majority of it's damage up front and dwindles over time. Example - Current version = base damage first tick, base damage 2nd tick, base damage 3rd tick....... base damage 15th tick.
New version = base damage x3 first tick......... base damage x 0.2 15th tick
Changes like these would make each at-will functional without stealth and fill different utility roles. I'd love some feedback on my brainstorming please!
This is an absolutely perfect response. If you take away our stealth, then you must add some way for us to escape. We are just sitting ducks when our stealth runs out, which is what lead me to be a perma stealth TR in PVP. Please consider giving us something (CC, mobility, dodge) anything when out of stealth. I get that you may not want perma steath TR's. But give more ways to survive when out of stealth if you want to nerf the stealth.
I personally don't care about one hitting. I like the challenge and trying to time the DF in PVP. To me that's more fun than just a one shot kill. You have to work for it a little. I think 15% per at will strike is absolutely insane. Maybe a one time 15% stealth reduction per 5 sec when using an at will, or something like that. But 15% for each at will strike? ****. Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
Arterial Cut: I feel like this feat doesn't belong in the execution tree because we have nothing to keep us in stealth and were a damage focused tree which means we aren't relying on stealth to give us our damage!
Grim Pleasure: I tested this feat and finds it only gives about a 1% damage boost so perhaps change it to something like "The rogue gets 50% of movement as power" This would be a much needed stat boost that could get us up to par in the evil Gear Score rating and its super unique which I thinks is awesome. I do like this feat and I don't mind if it changes or not but I certainly hold my ground that one of our feats needs to give us power as a percentage of another stat!
Vicious Pursuit: I really like this but since it doesn't stack on one target it seems like its not that rewarding to just focus down a boss in a fight. I think it would be awesome if it could be like a 20% chance of proc and it stacks 3 times.
Twister Grin: I really liked this feat at first but after testing it using combat tracker I found that its only giving me a 1% damage boost in Caverns of Karrundrax. Which makes it a very useless feat. I would suggest replacing this feat with a changed Overrun Critical/Critical Teamwork or a flat critical severity boost.
Last Moments: I like this feat a lot and I think its awesome that it gets a massive boost when in stealth because it can be used for sweet combos but I think that perhaps it also needs to gain a damage boost when in stealth because increasing the threshold is only going to be useful 30% of the time.
Exposed Weakness: I do not like the feat at all, my TR is only a 14k TR so he's not that amazing and he already has 22% armor penetration which means this feat would be useless for him. On top of that I feel like it wouldn't get used much at all, It could have synergy with twisted grin and shadow of demise but like I said, I really don't need the buff. I would love to see this feat be reverted back to Deadly Momentum.
Shadow Born: I like this feat and it has great synergy with Last moments and Shadow of Demise, don't see a need for change.
Shadow of Demise: I enjoy this feat and I think its got awesome synergy with many of the feats and to me it reflects what my TR pre mod 5 has always been about, deal good damage while out of stealth and then when in stealth deal large amounts of burst damage, I love it.
TL;DR
Change Arterial Cut because it doesn't boost our damage by much and is far more useful for saboteur.
Make Vicious Pursuit more rewarding when we are attacking a single target
Change Twisted Grin because it doesn't give a noticeable damage boost (1%)
Remove Exposed Weakness because TRs get a large amount of armor penetration from gear that it really makes no difference.
Bring back Deadly Momentum, this skill made hitting a single target feel extremely rewarding.
Give us something later in the tree that gives us a flat critical severity boost
Bring back Critical Teamwork or even Overrun Critical but scaled down
Add a gear score boost to any of the first feats, e.g. Gain power equal to 50% of movement
Hmmm, interesting response. To me flurry is as much a single target power as a power can be. First it locks on and tracks a single target. Secondly, it applies a bleed effect, which is ideal for taking out a single, tough target. Sly flourish on the other hand is a good aoe at-will because you can switch targets rapidly, and the animation already has some of the strikes connecting in arcs.
++1 on this
just.. omg.. I'm a happy man.
New Patch is up on preview shard.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Well I was just trying to follow up on what you posted and add something to it as I thought the at will issue needed to be discussed. I sort of hate the lock on of flurry (even though when it works right it is golden) as it has killed me more than any other thing in the game. I was just saying if an AE was considered and especially since sly we get earlier -- but as I said just speculation and I am not set one way or the other.
LOVE.
/10char
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Testing changes in preview and noticed that smoke bomb would daze me in addition to the mob. I don't know if this is just a scoundrel issue or if it's global, but it's not WAI.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
1. very promising overall, especially Scoundrel's now really hip, a terror to any class without CC breakers
2. overall defense for all 3 trees still too weak, but Sab and Sco seems to have vastly improved
3. WKs are still hard pressed.. actually not about encounters or at-wills, but basic physical traits no contest...
3. the extra defense, and particularly movement speed MIs have or WKs alone makes it hard to cope with
4. dodge changes doesn't seem to have been implemented yet
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I noticed this as well. It seems to proc off of "concussive strikes". It doesn't happen every time which I guess is determined by if your smoke bomb crits or not(even if it does no damage). It also appears to affect allies. Was pretty funny to watch people scatter out of my smoke bomb lol.
lol yeh im getting dazed by my own abilities
Bug:
Dodge is not reducing properly on first usages. The first two take 50%; if you wait for the stamina meter to regain to about 1/3 you can dodge roll again. So it's... Somewhat working?
Oh, and as always, the TR walk animation is STILL bugged and missing.
Thoughts:
So, I ran Death Forge since it was the Lair Of The Day in Dread Ring, and I'm bored with Biggrin's. I ran it four times with 4 different builds, all MI:
Saboteur with Exe dip for crit sev feat, all ability points in STR and CHA, First Strike/Skillful Infiltrator/Shadow Strike/Dazing Strike/Blitz/Gloaming Cut/Cloud of Steel/Whirlwind of Blades/Lurker's Assault
Identical Sab build/loadout with all points in DEX and STR.
Executioner with Sab dip, DEX/STR, FS/SI/SS/Lashing/Blitz/GC/CoS/WoB/LA
Live MI Executioner with Scoundrel dip, DEX/STR, FS/SI/SS/Lashing/Blitz/Duelist's Flurry/CoS/WoB/LA. As a note, my live build is missing a Power boon I took on Test, and I have Improved Cunning Sneak on live instead of the Disciple of Strength I'm using on live.
Each run was, other than different loadouts for different builds, done as close to the same as possible. (For the record that's not my usual live loadout, but for parity's sake I used the same Exe loadout as test.) The first run I only remembered to use my daily twice, so all subsequent runs I did the same thing and used it in the same places, for example. Didn't use Tymora's Coin or Invoking since those boosts are random and not consistently repeatable.
- Gloaming Cut is boring. Like, really super boring. It's too bad no other at-will is really currently viable. Even then it's only sort of viable for Executioner. If the stealth drain absolutely has to stay and can't be toned down in PvE for whatever stubborn reason, Duelist's Flurry needs to be faster, Sly Flourish needs to be AoE, Cloud of Steel needs to go back to 12 charges, and I don't play WK so IDK WTF Disheartening Strike needs. Cloud of Steel especially since it being used in perma stealth in PvP is why the charge number got nerfed in the first place.
- Charisma does basically nothing. I tried the exact same Saboteur build with 20 STR/23 DEX/20 CHA and my usual 20/27/16 and there was seriously no meaningful difference. The DEX/STR actually came out ahead in damage by about 150k.
- DEX/CHA Sab did the most damage on test. Executioner did the least; Sab class features mean you can open with Blitz, still be in stealth, and follow up with the now-execellent stealthed Dazing, which is I will admit a fantastic AoE combo. You're now a bad CW, congrats. ^_- Exe boss damage wasn't significantly different from Sab, which is kind of disappointing.
- By far the lowest was live test. This is not a surprise; everything dies in one or two hits except the boss on live already, but on live I don't have First Strike to do silly overdamage. It's a good illustration of how lack of spike damage and AoE hurts our standings in dungeon clearing up to bosses currently on live. I have no complaints here. It's overkill in Death Forge but in dungeons/skirmishes with AoE it'll make us much more useful.
Where it did pull ahead on live, and where I expected it to, was the boss. Overkilled her, unsurprisingly. Stealth DF bleeds her down quick on live. Jawbone is probably the shortest lived of Dread Ring lair bosses and obviously it's the same HP regardless so you don't see big differences here, but the trends in my experience translate out to groups and larger hitpoint pools - DF once going on live shreds things quite nicely.
- I honestly think I prefer Sab to Exe. Those big 49k unbuffed Lashing Blades are nice, but I think overall there might be a bit more long-term performance from Sab. I'll have to see if I can get a dungeon group together this weekend to run some real content with the different builds, though solo instances are much easier to control the circumstances of than parties. Sab also feels a little more... I don't know, skill-needing than current test Exe? Positioning is helpful/important instead of just 'run in and Blitz/LB'.
I'll give some more feedback after testing more. Oh, if you're bored, here are the screenshots of my parses of the DF runs:
http://www.iankunx.net/TRSabChaStr.png
http://www.iankunx.net/TRSabDexStr.png
http://www.iankunx.net/TRExe.png
http://www.iankunx.net/TRExeLive.png
(Bloodfire, for anyone not aware, is the Renegade Evoker's AoE burst when you get crit by an enemy, in case you're trying to figure out WTF that is.)
Scoundrel is also getting there.
I think with some reworked At-wills and at wills not depleting so much stealth per use ( preferably none) sab and scound will be really fun.
Exec is sooo boring to play.
While I personally agree with the stealth depletion, I'm currently thinking lowering the depletion rate down to around 7.5%(half) ~ 10% per attack might be a good compromise point.
Scoundrel is certainly very interesting now, with really powerful CC locks. With alternating, timed CC attacks from Concussive Strikes and Skull Cracker, its starting to show very good potential. For MI scoundrels I can see it becoming an incredibly speedy and fun way to play the game both for PvE and PvP.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
My burst was reduced since the First Strike nerf... might not be as effective as I thought it would be. But Exec still 1-shots squishies and Lashing takes away Half of geared player's health. Need to win a way to survive out of stealth with Exec.
Scoundrel is awesome.. I LOVE the new dazing strike and the Scoundrel's durability. And the chain CC's are fun.
But it's Scoundrel's tankiness that's impressing me. I let a geared GWF unleash a full rotation on me and it deflected everything, didn't even get below 90%. And when below 40%, a GF's Anvil of Doom doesn't 1-shot you like it usually does.
And Saboteur is the stealth tree and is pretty lethal., pretty sure there will be new meta builds once mod5 hits.
This choice is so hard lol.
naicalus is right. Dodge changes haven't been implemented yet. Either that, or bugged out.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'