First the encounter power:
i have the feeling DAZING STRIKE is now a bit overpowered. The reason is, if i am using it with stealth i deal 15-30K Hits in a prone. Most of the mob groups i was testing at dread ring was one hitted or two hitted (the second hit was easy because they were stunned) [Using Executioneer Path]. Now imagine this power in PvP. You have the enemy team capturing the spot, you go in stealth run to the spot and one hit the CWs or characters with low defense and life and stunn them. For me it seems a bit toooooo much.
PATH OF BLADE seems now okay for me. It's not a big AoE Damage increase but i can have him up nearly every time because of the activation time, which is nice.
WICKED REMINDER has a nice damage and i really like the changes that we need less stacks to get our damage for the group boosted.BUG: Wicked Reminder activates sometimes several times without my command. Seems some kind of issue if my characters moves forwards.
I tried now some combinations of GLOAMING CUT and DUELIST FLURRY. The reason i used GLOAMING CUT was it doesn't reduce stealth and i assumed it would become the new TR PvE At-Will-Skill. But i was wrong.
If i only use Gloaming Cut for 1 Minute while stealthed and unstealhed i do like 450.000 Damage in 1 Minute. If i use Duelist Flurry i get around 950.000 Damage. If i try to use Gloaming Cut while stealthed and Duelist Flurry while unstealthed i get only 850.000 Damage in 1 Minute.
ACT shows me if i go in stealth my DPS drops because the DPS of Gloaming Cut is lower then Duelist Flurry (and now imagine how many Buffs i get with the Executioneer Feats and it's still lower then the Bleeding of Duelist Flurry and Duelist Flurry itself)
To give you a reference: At the current settings on the live Server i deal around 890.000 Damage in 1 Minute. Which means i deal insignificantly more damage.
We come to the Feats. I only will recommend Executioneer Feats in this Feedback Post.
T1: Arterial Cut = I would like if that stays ingame. +15% Critical Severity is nice and usefull for an TR.
T1: Grim Pleasure = Useless Feat. If i have 10.000 Power i get additional 500 Power (+5%). 500 Power are only 3% or less damage increase. And with 10.000 Power i am on the upper/end scale of the power an TR can have. So please kick it out.
T2: Vicious Pursuit = Don't know what i should say. It's simply 5% more damage and more usefull as Grim Pleasure. Can stay in but i would like that it would stack up 3 times. Which means TR deals more damage on Bosses.
T3: Twisted Grin = Would be a nice feat in use of GLOAMING CUT. And it is. I tried it on some groups in the dread ring and IF Twisted Grin is activated it deals nice damage while stealthed (+25% more damage). But i would like if it is an 6 Second Buff for every attack in 6 Seconds and not a one timer.
T3: Last Moments: Seems okay for me.
T4: Exposed Weakness = Nice Bonus while stealthed. Can only proper use while using GLOAMING CUT because of stealth depression. Which means you should power up Gloaming Cut a bit.
T4: Shadowborn = Sounds nice. But is somekind of useless. If i enter stealth i get +100% Power for my next attack. Which means: Hit. If i use Gloaming Cut i get like ~15.000 Damage (normal damage would ~12.000). Which means it a waste of statpoints.
T5: Shadow Of Demise: Nice Feat. Nothing wrong with it.
I will continue and testing the other feeds. Have Fun, Stay Tuned.
I agree, with lot of your feedback. But keep in mind that gloaming Cut makes more damage as target health diminishes. So it does not need buff, maybe only a bit faster animation speed.
Shadowborn makes no sense with atwill, but try it with Blitz or or Lashing Blade, and you will feel the difference.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
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fangredwaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
edited October 2014
Serious Issues of TR class as of testing today:
1- TR cannot deal with ranged class currently - we need every second of the 5 second stealth to get our damage through
2- TR is close combat but cannot survive long enough to deal damage - need enough Deflect or Defense to be able to last.
3- TR class need more dodges or they cannot deal with AoE in situations like that of Garakas, PvP
4- TR NEED DPS through a proper RESPECTABLE At-Will like Sly - no DF trance BS or Gloaming cut joke.
5- TR need tricks, stuns, traps.
Stealth based Damage with 2 second stealth = No dps at all. You are turning TR into a joke.
After you finish this - add the Paragon Path to strengthen these BASIC aspects.
These are the things we Main TR players need for running PvP, PvE like Garakas, CN, Malabog, Karru, etc
The Non TR class have UNFAIR advantages against TR:
SW has stuns,soul puppet, dps, knock down - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
GWF-movement(really?),def,dps /
GF - shield, def, stuns, EPIC knock downs/
HR - stuns, dodges, deflects, dps, close combat dps - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
CW - More than enough stuns, AOE, dps, close combat dps - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
DC - Def, stuns, AOE, comparable dps - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
PvE - Starting from IWD HEs, CN, Malabog Castle to Garakas - TR's As*s is handed to this class. Stealth provides that paper thin difference between Useless and Completely Non Playable Fodder Class. Oh and with the critical team work gone - TR doesnt give anything to party. There are tons of such nub things in this class. Seriously its a joke.
SW has stuns,soul puppet, dps, knock down - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
GWF-movement(really?),def,dps /
GF - shield, def, stuns, EPIC knock downs/
HR - stuns, dodges, deflects, dps, close combat dps - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
CW - EPIC More than enough stuns, EPIC AOE, EPIC dps, close combat dps - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
DC - Def, stuns, AOE, comparable dps - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
So, you've identified the strengths of the other classes. guess what, TR has abilities to counter. For the ranged powers/CCs you have a choice: stealth to target, dodge to target, or (MI) ITC to target. GF is easy to beat - get behind him/her. HR is a pain (esp combat), but they're very vulnerable to spike damage. For CWs, try stacking a slow effect (from stealth bonus). DC? yeah, good luck. WR will help some and dazes will help. GWF is going to be a dodgefest.
Basically, as a tentative start, you're gonna want to run MI with DS/IS/SB, WR/LB, ITC.
PvE - Starting from IWD HEs, CN, Malabog Castle to Garakas - TR's As*s is handed to this class. Stealth provides that paper thin difference between Useless and Completely Non Playable Fodder Class. Oh and with the critical team work gone - TR doesnt give anything to party. There are tons of such nub things in this class. Seriously its a joke.
I dunno about that. I've been running my scoundrel currently in dungeons and staying alive quite well. (not to mention pulling up right behind the CWs, sometimes passing some). If anything, mod 5 will definitely enhance scoundrel survivability, even when playing hybrid, and the CCs + VP (Exe rank 2) make a decent combo. I was running on DS, WR, SB on preview, from a suggestion from Kweassa and I was clearing minor HEs by myself. Soul procced once and I was drinnking pots a couple of times, but if you time your dazes to stack, you get very good control in PvE.
Feedback
- The paragon feats seem really solid right now. Maybe Heroic feats changes are still coming?
- I'd prefer just to have faster animations on the roll than more distance. That half second spent standing up always seems to be a death sentence for me, or maybe i am just terrible.
- If stealth is going to drain from at will usage, it should probably be no more than 10%.
- If stealth continues to drain from at will usage, consider having stealth not deplete based only on at will/encounter usage and not time.
- If stealth continues to drain from at will usage and time, consider making encounters only deplete a portion of the stealth bar.
- Stealth draining on damage taken pretty much mandates using that one class feature, why not just remove stealth loss from damage altogether and rework that class feature?
- Provide the ability to turn stealth on/off at will, its annoying to use stealth, dodge, and waste half of the stealth time getting back to a target. Or kill a target and then have to wait for stealth to recharge.
- I am really hoping to see some tuning to the powers for rouge. Some of them take way too long or seem to provide little benefit, especially the dailies. The class features that center around usage of dailies are not really practical to me, TR gains AP so slow, these things are sometimes only a factor once every 5-10 minutes.
- Too many of these powers basically require the TR to wait for an animation - I guess it looks cool to twirl your daggers in the air, but if it takes 2-4 seconds to get to any damage, there is a good chance I would have already had to dodge something and then start over, or take a big hit. I'm sure a lot of time was spent animating these things so is it asking too much to just speed it up?
Feedback: over all good what need to be addressed is the gear.
Profound set is still mandatory....could you please consider to rework feats/stealth itself to cover that 30 per cent more stealth duration of the profound?
After the patch yesterday dps improvements in branch executor is negligible. Shadow of dismise only unitarget damage is useless, in 6 seconds usually does not exceed 100k (50k shadow dismise).
In the best case using dayli I have come to the 200K (100K shadow dismise) less dps than other classes with my GS 17k.
this is my rotation:
entering stealth
WR (activating shadow dismise)
DF
Shadow strike (refilling my stealth bar)
active stealth
lashing blade.
Variant with dayli: (Lurker Assult)
active stealth
WR (active SD)
Lurker assault
active stealth
lashing blade(end of SD)
DF (activating stealth in their last strokes)(active SD)
DF
active stealth
WR (end of LA)(end of SD)
Shadow strike
active stealth
Lashing blade.(active SD)
It is not a simple rotation and less in combat.
This rotation does not use ITC with what I risk to do it. We need to use lashing blade (or another encounter in stealth) reactivated shadow dismise, or will not do enough unitarget damage to beat SW or HR.
And I dont see a problem active shadow dismisse in AoE .
That would put us to the level of other classes in dps. Although I guess it's the old problem ... PVP.
My character has full rank 9, perfect vorpal , legendary golden horn of the dragon, atifacts level 99, 9k power and 90% critical severity, little can improve my dps.
Thx for reading and sorry for my bad english, i use a online traductor.
Edit:this is the real rotation :P
On Live, most of our dps comes from our at-wills (DF mostly).
On Test, most of our dps comes from our encounters.
On live, surviving comes from using ITC in stealth for immunity.
On test, surviving now comes from killing the adds faster than they kill you, or playing a Scoundrel and having stuns. Problems comes from not killing adds, and having nothing to do but die.
On live, Dex is important because it increases our Critical Chance, giving us higher damage output.
On Test, Strength or Charisma is more important, because it increases our damage overall; we don't need Dex, because Stealth (which we will be in when we use our encounters) gives us 100% critical.
It seems on test, you spam your encounters, then run around dodging while your stealth refreshes.
Suggestion - PVE
At-Wills
Our at-wills should allow us to sustain damage. Make them faster, or useable while moving, or when using, they increase defense or deflect.
Surviving
Shorter dodges? More dodges? High Deflect?
Stat Priority
In every RPG, dexterity is the Rogues best stat.
---Make dex give higher deflect than Charisma?
---Make dex increase our damage, not strength (consider it a feat, such as Weapon Finesse). Maybe change our Disciple of Strength?
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blazious11Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 331Arc User
Stat Priority
In every RPG, dexterity is the Rogues best stat.
---Make dex give higher deflect than Charisma?
---Make dex increase our damage, not strength (consider it a feat, such as Weapon Finesse). Maybe change our Disciple of Strength?
I would still suggest, that DEX give us 1% movement speed (with of course crit chance or as you suggested, damage bonus). That would make the class more mobile, and would help surviving. Also, it would give us the feeling of a sneaky, fast rogue, like it should be. Sneak attack would need a rework, or need to be tested how Dex speed changes things for PVP. Also it needs to be moved into a different power slot, since it only works with stealt, and new TR-s does not gain anything from it till level 10.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
Point blank: If what you have to say isn't going to help the devs tweak upcoming changes, do not post it in this thread. The devs don't care about your opinion of another player. They also don't care what you think of another player's feedback. They do, however, want to hear about YOUR personal experiences with the changes on the preview server and YOUR feedback on those changes.
Personal attacks and bickering will be removed henceforth without notice to the poster.
Do not respond or reply to this notice, instead, use the PM system to address any questions or concerns. Thank you.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Feedback: over all good what need to be addressed is the gear.
Profound set is still mandatory....could you please consider to rework feats/stealth itself to cover that 30 per cent more stealth duration of the profound?
On this I agree. To summarize the points I have made about stealth so far:
the stealth depletion upon use of at-wills itself is a step in the right direction and necessary
the amount of depletion, may be up to debate -- there could be compromises as to a lower depletion value
the rate of natural stealth depletion should be lowered (= base/default stealth duration up)
gentlemancrush and developers, if you're listening please let us try the following:
10% stealth depletion per at-will made from stealth
default stealth duration upped to base 8 seconds
feat [Improved Cunning Sneak] increased to 5/10/15/20/25%, providing extra +2s
the stealth bonus provided by Profound set lowered to 25%, Skulker's down to 15%
..hence, the suggested stealth set up would be;
base = 8s
+ICS(25%) = 10s
Skulker's(15%) + ICS(25%) = 11.2s
Profound(25%) + ICS(25%) = 12s
at-will stealth depletion = 10%
IMO with these settings higher-level gear would be opened up to stealth duration that roughly matches our old Profound+ICS values, opening up the possibility of more TRs made freel to advance to BI/Draconic/other grade gear and finally leave behind the Profound.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Stat Priority
In every RPG, dexterity is the Rogues best stat.
---Make dex give higher deflect than Charisma?
---Make dex increase our damage, not strength (consider it a feat, such as Weapon Finesse). Maybe change our Disciple of Strength?
I also like the idea of dex for damage, as weapons like daggers are more about accuracy than brute force, and as was said with the reduction in the importance of critical chance for a Trickster Rogue it would let us keep the importance of our 'primary' stat.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
One with the shadows (saboteur capstone feat) I noticed that in combat vs players or enemies, if I am taking damage this feat will not fill my stealth bar to max.
On this I agree. To summarize the points I have made about stealth so far:
the stealth depletion upon use of at-wills itself is a step in the right direction and necessary
the amount of depletion, may be up to debate -- there could be compromises as to a lower depletion value
the rate of natural stealth depletion should be slowered (= base/default stealth duration up)
gentlemancrush and developers, if you're listening please let us try the following:
10% stealth depletion per at-will made from stealth
default stealth duration upped to base 8 seconds, feat [Improved Cunning Sneak] providing extra +2s
the stealth bonus provided by Profound set lowered to 20%, Skulker's down to 15%
I would prefer to see these gear stealth bonuses replaced with something else entirely. With the intent of reducing the prolonged use of stealth it would make sense to tackle this issue now as they skew the testing for the class changes since many are testing with these stealth extended armors and the data learned from such has an unreliable future.
I would prefer to see these gear stealth bonuses replaced with something else entirely. With the intent of reducing the prolonged use of stealth it would make sense to tackle this issue now as they skew the testing for the class changes since many are testing with these stealth extended armors and the data learned from such has an unreliable future.
That is actually my thoughts as well. I've only left in the lowered stealth buff values because there most probably would be people who object to it and argue that it's a further 'nerf'.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Feedback: Sentinel I feel like I don’t have enough tools to stay alive under fire now and it makes tanking too hard.
Please try to play for a few hours to get used to the changes. Thank you again for all your help Adventurers! We look forward to hearing back from you!
Chris “Gentleman_Crush” Meyer
If you thinks it's hard to stay alive while under fire with a trickster rogue, try playing a hunter ranger. I like the fact that you guys have finally taken back some of the power from them. A theif should never have been able to stand toe to toe with several of the classes that they can now do it to. Let alone be able to defeat them easily. After all this is D&D not WoW. Bravo Developers
Just ran two dungeons on my TR:
19k GS, Crit and Crit Sev based with P.Vorpal; Legendary Dex belt and 3 Legendary Artifacts
10.5k power, 3k Crit, 2.5 AP, 3.5k Recov
Ran Sabo build, with the Crit Sev feat from Exe.
A DC, running with High Prophet, Dread Weapon, no belt, and stats still spec'd for healing (i.e. only 500 AP) out damaged me in CN run by 10 million.
DC Righteous Path: 42 Million
TR Sabo path: 32 million
CW Oppressor: 19 million
The DC's 42 million parse was about:
- Fire of the Gods: 17 million
- Divine Light: 8 million
- Chain of Blazing: 5.6 million
- DG: 4.5 million
- BoS: 3 million
My 32 million parse:
- Blitz: 10 million
- Dazing Strike: 6 million
- Gloaming: 4.5 mil
- Whilrlwind: 3.8
- Shadows: 2.1
etc...
I really enjoyed the play of the TR. I think the at wills are still very 'clunky'. They need to be faster.
I think the DC's power still needs a little work - specifically Fire of the Gods:
Fire of the Gods: When you critically strike a foe they are set ablaze, taking 20/40/60/80/100% of your weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. This effect does not stack.
Updated: Righteous: Fire of the Gods: This feat can no longer crit.
Not sure how Fire of the Gods is doing so much damage. The formula is obviously messed up. I think it's doing an AoE too.
If you thinks it's hard to stay alive while under fire with a trickster rogue, try playing a hunter ranger. I like the fact that you guys have finally taken back some of the power from them. A theif should never have been able to stand toe to toe with several of the classes that they can now do it to. Let alone be able to defeat them easily. After all this is D&D not WoW. Bravo Developers
You lost me there. You are replying to a GWF Sentinel and mentioning TR and HR and a 'theif'. Trickster Rogues are not thieves as that is an entirely different subclass of Rogue.
I believe I am now ready to proceed with the Feedback for version 2.
FEEDBACK: COMMON POWERS
1. Dazing Strike: Now always activates at the same speed as stealth and should hit targets far more consistently.
Easily one of the best changes so far, although not a stunning CC as we all wanted, the power now activates fast enough to be used in fast-paced combat situations with great reliability and chance to land. The activation speed and it's modest cone range is of great help to both PvP and PvE
Dazing Strike is now worthy to be called the best CC a TR has
2. Deft Strike: Now slows targets for 80% (up from 60%) for 5 seconds (up from 3 seconds).
Another great change. I am very grateful that the developers have listened to the players when we've asked for more potent, and longer lasting slows. Deft Strike now lasts a meaningful time and with good effect -- greatly increasing the QOL(Quality of Life) aspect of TRs as melees. Synergizes especially well with Scoundrel/Melee builds.
Deft Strike is now a reliable gap-closer and makes it easier for TRs to use melee powers
3. Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%)
There seems to be some confusion as to whether the dodge changes have made it to the preview. Seeing how a third dodge definately takes only 33% stamina, I'd say it is implemented, but in a way we can not easily understand.
I want to suggest that perhaps the developers re-skin the stamina bar (like, giving it visually 3 sections?) so players may be able to check and see if its indeed working
4. Path of the Blade: Now hits 3 targets each tick (up from 1) and deals roughly 33% of its original damage.
Possibly mixed feelings amongst many TR players. Those who hate it would welcome this change, those who made extensive use of it would feel it has been greatly nerfed.
Hence, in this case I can only provide opinion based on personal preference -- considering this power has always been a 'passive/autohit' type power which hardly required any skill (and yet, the outcome being much too effective despite being so easy to manage), in my case I approve the changes.
5. Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks to 3 (instead of 5)
A bug fix. Not much to comment
FEEDBACK: COMMON CLASS FEATURES
1. First Strike: Now provides 30% bonus damage at rank 1 (down from 33%) and provides an additional 15% when ranking it up (down from 33%).
Though it is not hard to imagine certain players (especially Executioner players) would find this change displeasing, my opinion is it has been adequately tweaked.
FEEDBACK: BUILD PATHS
1. Executioner
■ Shadow of Demise: Now correctly only triggers on Encounter Powers."
■ Shadow of Demise: Shadow of Demise can no longer activate itself and can only be applied to a single target.
Considering the deadly (perhaps too much) nature of this feat witnessed in version1, I'd say the correction is adequate. Removing self-replication of the effect, as well as proc through at-wills was a bug fix, as we understand.
However, Executioners lack the extra stealth abilities of the Saboteuer or the extra CCs of the Scoundrel. It is my belief that allowing it to proc with multiple targets (with AoE powers such as Blitz or Dazing Strike) is necessary for both PvP and PvE.
I suggest the developers keep the current fixes, but once again allow it to proc with all targets hit with the proc encounter
2. Saboteuer
■ Knife's Edge: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
■ Shady Preparations: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
■ One with the Shadows: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
The fixes to Knife's Edge and Shady Preparations are adequate. Thank you for a quick fix
The 5 second reduction in cooldown for One with the Shadows has made all the difference in the world. It is a welcome decision which makes it easier for Saboteuers to manage their attack rotations and tactics in a much easier manner
The
"in-and-out of stealth" characteristic of the path is now much better represented, and my opinion is that the Saboteuer path can now be considered a solid choice.
3. Scoundrel
■ Concussive Strikes: Now dazes the target for .5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds (up from .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second)
■ Skull Cracker: Base daze increased to 4 seconds (up from 2 seconds). Total maximum increased to 6 seconds (up from 4 seconds).
■ Skull Cracker: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
■ Skull Cracker: Now also grants 25% increased move speed.
This version2 is nothing but good news for the Scoundrel path, contrary to the general disappointments faced in version1.
All of the changes are now adequate, and each of the changes have strengthened the Crowd Control aspect of the path greatly.
Overall, since the changes happened the strengthened CC powers have increased both the offense and defense of the Scoundrel path greatly, and it can now be considered almost on par with the other two paths
Moreover, this path synergizes well with the changes to individual powers with great effect.
It is my belief that the Scoundrel path now adequately represents the CC/brawling power of the TR and makes it a fearsome melee combatant.
FEEDBACK: WHISPERKNIFE
1. Advantageous Position: Now provides 20% resistance (up from 10%) and now lasts for 2 seconds per rank (up from 1)
I never thought I'd say this, and most people who've tried the WK path would also be surprised... but Advantageous Position is now actually not too shabby now (
imagine that!!)
The reason behind this positive change is actually the increase in duration -- max 6 seconds after exiting stealth.
The increased duration now allows a lingering damage boost even out of stealth, for a time that lasts long enough to use it aggressively.
Especially with the quick stealth depletion in place, what Advantageous Position means for a WK is that (for example) the WK can start flinging all 8 charges (actually 9 in reality, since 1 recharges while you throw the 8 over 4 seconds) from stealth, and even if stealth is depleted along the way the rest of the knives thrown while visible, will have the same base damage as those thrown in stealth. (Minus the extra stealth-related damage buffs, that is) This applies to all attacks, and is actually a great source of damage increase for the WK in general.
However, in terms of damage reduction, I feel that it is still a bit too weak.
This is my suggestion: for the sake of experimenting, let's try in the preview the following set-up:
(1) Lasts 4 seconds at rank1, each rank +2s, for a total of 8 seconds
(2) Resistance to ranged damage increased to 30% (from 20%)
If these changes are too powerful, then the developers may always tone it down to the current level
2. Disheartening Strike: This power has now been correctly reduced by 10% instead of 60%.
The overall changes are acceptable. I feel it is adequate
3. Razor Action: This power has had its damage increased by roughly 100%. The Damage Over Time component tied to Seething Knives now only triggers when the player has points in Seething Knives.
Razor Action: Damage increased by a further 200%.
Still too weak... it is not much noticeable
4. Vengeance's Pursuit: Cooldown reduced to 12 seconds (down from 16).
Vengeance's Pursuit: The first portion of this power can now be activated while moving. The followup portion of this power now activates substantially faster.
I cannot express enough thanks to the developers. The reduction in cooltime, the mobile activation, and the increase in responsiveness when teleporting... this has turned VP into a very welcome addition to the WK and now it is finally beginning to feel reliable
I cannot even begin to express just what kind of difference the
"throwing on the run" makes in terms of mobility. Such a simple change and yet the tactical worthiness of this power has grown so much
The speeding up of the follow-up teleportation is also good news. This makes breaking out from CCs that much faster and responsive
However, when compared to ITC, the tactical worth of a total CC immunity + 100% deflection, is still just too good for VP to match, IMO.
This is my suggestion:
(1) Cooldown further reduced to 10 seconds
(2) The 'throw' part of the power also speeded up
(3) The 3/6/9% damage debuff replaced with (4)
(4) When a VP 'mark' is active on any target, the TR's deflection chance is increased by 3/6/9%
IMO, if the above changes are in place, I think we can finally 'call it even' with ITC
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Nice buff, but this power needs to protect us from all sources of damage for 20%, not just ranged attacks. Make it also increase our deflection/mitigation by a small amount.
Thank you for the WK buffs so far, we're getting into something.
Feedback of changes and where TR sits currently in Preview.
Dazing strike - A very welcome change, especially the fast activation. It also opens up a solid array of options for a non-stealthed TR in PVP. DS is now a solid encounter and useful. If DS were a stun then I would be concerned about it's power in PVP but I think that as a daze it remains adequate without being too powerful.
Path of the blade - This power retains it's function and effectivness in PVE while being substantially reduced in it's annoyance factor and power in PVP. Exactly the kind of changes that need to happen.
Lashing blade - I am finding less and less reasons to slot this encounter on my bar. I am unsure how this power could be balanced to be useful in PVE without breaking it in PVP. In any case it doesn't need to deal more damage. Perhaps reducing the cooldown or adding a utility function to the power would be appropriate.
Impact shot - Still very weak and mostly useless. Perhaps adding a AOE burst effect would put it on the map for PVE without making it too powerful for PVP.
Bait and switch - This power is outdated, dead, and obsolete. I am finding no room for it in any situation on any feat path. Frankly if the stealth replenish portion of the power were removed that would be fine by me. It really needs to have a vast improvement in utility functions to be worth slotting, such as - Vastly reduced cooldown, immunity frames while casting, defensive stats boosted for rogue while it is active, and increased HP pool and threat generation of the dummy in PVE.
First strike - With this hopefully one-shotting equally geared squishies will go away. However, I think that rogues will still be able to one-shot lesser geared players, which is not a problem with the TR class alone. Nevertheless, I would expect for there to be some significant outcry when the updated TR goes live, and this is the first ability you should look at with future changes. More to the point I'd like to see it changed to something a bit more situationally useful than "alpha-strike" in PVP, but if you want to leave it here that's fine by me.
Sabotuer - Is starting to live up to the description painted on Page one of this thread. I by no means feel over-powered in PVE when using this path, but I am starting to feel like I could actually contribute solidly to a dungeon now. You might want to look at how Shadowy opportunity interacts with Bloodbath. I have done as much as 20k+ shadowy opportunity damage to a single target via bloodbath, and if that is indeed straight up unmitigated damage as it seems to be then there are concerns with that in PVP.
Scoundrel - Rather pleased with how this path turned out with the latest update. Is starting to live up to the description painted in Page one of this thread. The CC of this path is now adequate and it's main selling point. The toughness however, is not substantially noticeable. The damage as well also seems to be a bit lacking, which could be solved by doing something about the at-will situation. The thing I like most about this path is that while viable, it plays completely differently from saboteur, and I used different power set-ups between the two paths.
Executioner - I have not tested the updated changes to Exe, however, I will say this. The original shadow of demise was the only thing that allowed me to keep pace in the same circumstances as a Sabotuer. While the bug fix was entirely in order, changing Shadow of demise to single target only effectively gutted this feat path.
Final thoughts - TR is approaching adequate levels of performance PVE-wise as far as encounters and dailies go. However, it is lacking in Single target damage, which really should be it's niche role and something it has always been strong in. Single target encounters and dailies are.......underwhelming in PVE. In the past a large portion of rogue damage came from flurry, which is both rewarding and dynamic. While the simple solution would be to reduce stealth drain to 5% or less, perhaps the better option would be to make TR at-wills more useable out of stealth. Stealth adds survivability, increases the rogue's ability to connect with melee powers, and adds no small amount of damage. In order to bring at-wills to the same level as they were before stealth drain, they need to add all of the above while out of stealth - survivability, ability to connect, increased damage. This is currently the most pressing issue for the TR class in preview. Right now every at-will besides gloaming cut not only feels useless and sub-par, but it also feels like we are punished for using them.
Greetings Test-Mates and Devs,
I tried now the upper Feat Trea: Saboteur and was quite impressed.
In 1 minute test cycles i dealt up to ~1.200.000 Damage. To compare: i deal on the live Server ~890.000
It's a good damage increase and i only use GLOAMING CUT in this build. You can use Duelist Flurry in additon but it seems that it leads to an small DPS dropp while i use it unstealthed on the training puppet.
In an real battle duelist flurry is still usefull if you need a bit controll immunity and DOT on a Monster while stealth is regenerating.
Saboteur looks for me like the new PvE-Build. The reason is not only the higher damage, it's the handling of encounter powers. If you use an encounter you regenerate stealth which is important for your damage in this build and nothing is better as wicked reminder. Because you get every 15 Seconds the Buff "one with the shadows" which is activated by an encounter power.
That means, i am running out of stealth while i get this buff, hit with wicked reminder with the effect of fully debuff the monster (3 stacks = -21% armor = more damage for me and my group) get full stealth again AND a buff for 10 seconds to deal +20% more damage.
The really good thing is i have enough points left to get the Executioneer Feat "Arterial Cut" which gives me +15% more crit severity while stealthed.
The other side is: How is this build in PvP? An Bad thing could be, you are most of the time in stealth because you can use gloaming cut and it deals not a small amount of damage (12-30K). But on the other side, Gloaming Cut is a slow skill that draggs you automatically near the enemy player which means: You can see him and dodge away. But! it should be tested first. Sadly i got no Queue-Pop on the Test-Server for PvP.
Another thing is: I still want more Damage. I have an damage increase with this build, but it's still lower then the other classes. The 1.2 Million damage are around 16.000 DPS (so say the parser ACT) and i am an 18K GS TR with optimized stats and an similar equipped GWF can do around 23-25.000 DPS. A good enhancment could be: Give Gloaming Cut a small AoE template. Nothing really big only the range of this scissor like movement or give some feats or items with additional combat advantage bonus or we could get more Action Points Gaining to get faster in Lurker Assault or enhance Lurker Assault a bit more.
I really like this build because it feels like a real TR, most of the time i am invisible and dealing a good amount of damage.
Another personal preference in general for the TR from me would be: If am stealth i would get +10% movement speed because it is sometimes hard to avoid AoE Attacks from monsters without sacrificing the precious stealth.
To the dodging changes: I know they are not live, but i would more prefer that the dodge length is be untouched because it would dragg me too far away from my target. And 30% instead of 50% Stamina seems a bit too less. How about 40% and give me the 10% movement speed while stealthed?
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
From my experience on test server and from what people are saying about damage parses, it would seem there is still something missing to truly make the TR the top single target dps dealer.
Do something with the at wills and make stealth deplete slower with at will use. Oh and DCs desperately need their dps curbed ffs, why can a DC tank,heal,cc and DPS all in one build.
With the stealth meter drain per at-will attack, I feel that more changes are needed to be made for refilling stealth. Executioners pretty much have to slot shadowstrike as a refilling option. I'd be happy to have any of the changes below:
1.) Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate.
2.) at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit
3.) Third strike (flurry) of Duelist's Flurry counts as 1 attack so that it won't drain the whole meter
With the stealth meter drain per at-will attack, I feel that more changes are needed to be made for refilling stealth. Executioners pretty much have to slot shadowstrike as a refilling option. I'd be happy to have any of the changes below:
1.) Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate.
2.) at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit
3.) Third strike (flurry) of Duelist's Flurry counts as 1 attack so that it won't drain the whole meter
I believe the TR changes are now starting to enter a solid zone.
In case of Saboteuer, while many people were simply awed by the damage of Executioner in version1, some of the TRs who have been testing thoroughly have commented that it is their belief the Saboteuer's the most solid one of them all. With the reduced cooldown of OWTS I'd say this path is almost complete.
In case of the Scoundrel, it received the largest benefits of version2. The turn-out of this path is simply amazing... and equally amazing is the fact that the path comfortably fits both MIs and WKs well. The potential of this path applies differently to MIs and WKs in accordance with the innate differences between the two paragon paths, and thus MI Scoundrels are now quite amazing melees, while WK Scoundrels are the masters of harassment and fast paced in-and-out tactics. Every feat is now quite satisfying -- and even Concussive Strikes... or rather, especially Concussive Strikes.
Concussive Strikes now finally gives the TRs a much needed "silencer" power against ranged attacks or casting, allowing TRs to gain the initiative against ranged attackers. It was incredibly pleasant to find out that I, a WK with no CC breakers, could now escape the dreaded Icy Rays by; Stealth → Crit CoS → inflict daze. In moments of emergency, a desperate CoS stream of attacks pays off as a crit hit will momentarily daze your oppoenent, buying you precious 2.5 seconds to prepare yourself for the counter attack.
In a stealth fight against another TR, as you move around and search wildly for each other, a clandestine fling of a single CoS as your opponent passes by will now daze and momentarily pull him out of stealth, at which point you can fire off a VP mark to track him further and land a big hit, or simply decide to end his stealth with your own by flinging all CoS streams -- you and your opponent, both out of stealth, certain distance between the two -- good situation for a ranged TR.
While the Concussive Strikes daze may seem useless to some, the reality is much different: Concussive Strikes is now a must for any Scoundrel. The tactical worth of this feat, IMO, actually matches that of the capstone Skull Cracker.
I can't say much about the Executioner, as the style of this path does not agree with me well. My impression is the fighting style, rythm of the Executioner most closely matches the "old" TR tactics and moves. It has neither the deceptive and stylish rythm of the Saboteuer, nor does it have the technical and fluent CC tactics of the Scoundrel. The Executioner seems to play almost identically to the old TRs (especially old MI TRs familiar with the use of GC), but has the one-big-hit going for the path. Usually the fights I see a Saboteuer (Scoundrel builds are still rare in the preview) will have the upperhand all throughout the fight, but if it gets caught by that 1-big-hit, then the Executioner wins. Otherwise the Sabotuer does. I'll basically leave the judgement on Executioner paths/builds to other people more used to the path.
One thing is for certain. Now, all three paths are totally different in how they manage a fight. All three are unique, and all three have distinct strengths and weaknesses. When combined with the two different Paragons, effectively it can be said that we are given 6 different sub-type choices of the TR, 3 distinctly different MI types, and 3 distinctly different WK types. Every path plays it out differently, and it has been so much fun testing the different paths with other people.
2. THE NEW SCOUNDREL PATH
Now, since most of this version2 update concerns Scoundrels, I've already commented how much I enjoyed it, and how the CC aspect is now well represented in the TR.
However, there is still something left to be desired, and that is the other feats -- related to adding "strong defense" as a Scoundrel, seems actually redundant now. Particularly the Life Steal related feats.
I imagine the general intent behind the life steal related feats was to make the Scoundrel path sort of like the Combat path HR and Wilds Medicine, but it really doesn't seem to be working out that way.
As many of the players have mentioned, TRs are still much too weak in terms of defense. In this aspect, the best comparison would be with HRs -- same leather-grade armour, and yet while TRs are generally considered squishy, the HRs are considered extremely tough.
Why is this so? I believe the reasons are:
(1) HRs have a variety of buffs for self-protection. TRs do not.
(2) HRs have a deflection rate that averages higher than even TRs.
(3) HRs have self-sustenance(healing) that synergizes with deflect. TRs do not.
(4) HRs have much more active number of dodges.
I've been giving it thought as to how the general defense level of the TR can be upgraded, but not the levels of the HR (which is often considered OP by many, especially in its ability to endlessly heal itself constantly). "Borrowing" the deflect=heal method would be obviously the simplest, as it essentially benchmarks the HRs in its primary defense mechanism. However, I don't think that's the path TRs should go.
Instead, I was thinking about a feat which might sort of work out like the HR defense mechanism Wild Medicine, but instead return stamina for TRs instead of HP.
The reasoning behind this, is tying up successful deflection action with stamina gain will result in the TR defense mechanisms synergizing with each other. Gaining HP would just make it OP since for example power like ITC would be much too powerful with heals, but if the TRs gained stamina for successful deflects, then there would be more dodges to be used -- increasing both the defense of the TR as well as mobility.
It does not directly add HP, so a damaged TR is still damaged. There won't be any bullshi* like the HR where you damage him and he actually deflects and heals more from it (like DoTs) -- but instead the more the successful deflects the more you will be able to dodge and move around faster.
Therefore, adding this function to the Scoundrel path, instead of the redundant Life Steal related feats, would benefit the TRs much more in PvP and PvE.
So, to sum everything up and summarize a suggestion to the Scoundrel feats;
T1
Roll with the Punches: increase the deflection chance to 1/2/3/4/5% please
Bloody Brawler: Redundant. Let's try replacing it with a feat which further increases your stamina regeneration rate by 10%, and reduces the amount of stamina required to dodge by 4/8/12/16/20%
T2
Survivor: Please change the threshold to less than 40% HP
T3
Savage Blows: Redundant. Replace it with a feat that provides 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina bar regenerated upon a successful deflect
So basically, we put an extra stamina regeneration/dodge stamina cost reduction feat at T1, so other trees may also access it if they wish. If we scale the stamina bar at 100, the old dodges used to cost 50, the new dodges (intended) are now 33, and with this feat a 25% reduction if 5 points invested to it, making it around 25 cost, giving 4 dodges from the get-go.
Then we place a deflect→stamina mechanism at T3, so it remains inaccessible to other builds that chose other paths upto its capstone.
IMO this will increase the TR defense capability as more people might decide to choose the T1 feat, so all TRs who choose this will have at least more dodges, and then the Scoundrel path could make even further use of it through the [deflect=stamina regen=more dodge] mechanism I've proposed.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
With the stealth meter drain per at-will attack, I feel that more changes are needed to be made for refilling stealth. Executioners pretty much have to slot shadowstrike as a refilling option. I'd be happy to have any of the changes below:
1.) Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate.
2.) at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit
3.) Third strike (flurry) of Duelist's Flurry counts as 1 attack so that it won't drain the whole meter
Truthfully speaking, that's going to break the current system and would totally push the TR back to the OP levels it was.
If this is made possible, you don't even need a Saboteuer to 'return back to stealth at whim'. A few dodges and a stream of CoS will instantly put you back to stealth, as well as something like a Daze - DF also puts you right back to stealth, complete with all the high damage encounters to use at your disposal.
IMO the new direction is set. You either use at-wills from stealth and risk the stealth depletion, or you use at-wills outside of stealth.
I think it is pretty clear the messages coming from the devs are;
"No more steady and continuous stream of attacks from stealth, where you can attack at whim but the enemy cannot fight back. If you want to damage someone hard from stealth, then you will use it once you do. If you don't want to risk losing stealth and risk the dangers of being exposed, then your attacks are greatly limited at the price of your safety."
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Bug: Skullcracker The pop text description for this powers buff icon incorrectly cites the effect for the Saboteur capstone feat, stating that once every 15 seconds, using an encounter power will refill your stealth meter
Bug: First Strike Once slotted, this class feature incorrectly retains its damage bonus on the character after it has been un-slotted in favor of a different class feature. The damage bonus persists until after the first attack is made in an encounter or the player changes zones
Feedback: Scoundrel Please keep in mind that this feedback pertains specifically to my build, which is identical on live and PTS aside from the feat allocations for the reworked Scoundrel feats. I made no changes to powers, stats, etc between the two. My first impression was that there is virtually no change in basic combat efficacy between my live build in Scoundrel spec and the new Scoundrel spec on PTS. listed below are the main differences I've found through hours of testing and parsing combat logs in ACT:
on PTS I deal less DPS and overall damage in a given amount of time using Scoundrel spec, compared to live
on PTS the DPA of all my attacks have been reduced by 300 to over 1,000 damage, depending on the power, using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I am ever so slightly more resilient than on live using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I have noticeably more control effects happening compared to live
on PTS my AP generation is severely hampered compared to live
on PTS stealth is utterly and completely useless for Scoundrel spec, it's not even worth the minor effort to use it
on PTS heroic feats like Action Advantage, Twilight Adept and Improved Cunning Sneak now feel like they are totally worthless for Scoundrels
On PTS even with the damage increases to Deft Strike and Blitz, those powers still yield reduced damage for Scoundrel spec compared to live (as do other powers)
Overall, I don't feel like the new Scoundrel spec is an improvement, just a different way of doing the same thing in a slightly less efficient way. I was hoping to find at least a moderate improvement to damage. I expect the scoundrel to use underhanded tactics to daze or otherwise hinder their opponents, sure, but usually that comes with a big payoff by exploiting those tactics to cause some real damage. We got one feat for increased damage on controlled opponents... one... and while it's a good feat, it only brings the spec almost up to par with what's currently available on live, damage-wise. The loss of AP generation is, IMO, also a huge hit to the spec. While I love the new style and extra control effects, I'm left wondering if it's enough to make the loss in damage and AP generation "worth it".
For reference, all testing of the Scoundrel spec on PTS was done on a Master Infiltrator with 15k GS and 21 STR, 21 DEX, 21 CHA using Duelist's Flurry and Gloaming Cut at-wills, Tactics and Skillful Infiltrator class features, Dazing Strike, Deft Strike and Blitz encounters. Mainly invested in Power (5.5k) and Crit (3k) with moderate investment (1,300-1,700) in ArPen, Recovery, Deflection, Life Steal and Defense.
This is the same setup I've used on Live for several months now and it's worked well for me. However I'm finding it may be hard to justify staying with Scoundrel in Mod5 if it remains in its current state. I began testing Saboteur last night for comparison and the difference is like night and day. I still need to get more solid testing in before relaying feedback, but with Saboteur spec, I'm taking dread ring mobs out in less than half the time I did with Scoundrel spec. I really want to like the new Scoundrel but it just feels lacking to me so far.
The other side is: How is this build in PvP? An Bad thing could be, you are most of the time in stealth because you can use gloaming cut and it deals not a small amount of damage (12-30K). But on the other side, Gloaming Cut is a slow skill that draggs you automatically near the enemy player which means: You can see him and dodge away. But! it should be tested first. Sadly i got no Queue-Pop on the Test-Server for PvP.
It's hard. More players in IWD open zones and prefer 1v1.
CC build TR work, but its like under-CW. Want CC - build CW. Btw, no CC DC (chains just broken now - no root).
Bug: Skullcracker The pop text description for this powers buff icon incorrectly cites the effect for the Saboteur capstone feat, stating that once every 15 seconds, using an encounter power will refill your stealth meter
Bug: First Strike Once slotted, this class feature incorrectly retains its damage bonus on the character after it has been un-slotted in favor of a different class feature. The damage bonus persists until after the first attack is made in an encounter or the player changes zones
Feedback: Scoundrel Please keep in mind that this feedback pertains specifically to my build, which is identical on live and PTS aside from the feat allocations for the reworked Scoundrel feats. I made no changes to powers, stats, etc between the two. My first impression was that there is virtually no change in basic combat efficacy between my live build in Scoundrel spec and the new Scoundrel spec on PTS. listed below are the main differences I've found through hours of testing and parsing combat logs in ACT:
on PTS I deal less DPS and overall damage in a given amount of time using Scoundrel spec, compared to live
on PTS the DPA of all my attacks have been reduced by 300 to over 1,000 damage, depending on the power, using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I am ever so slightly more resilient than on live using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I have noticeably more control effects happening compared to live
on PTS my AP generation is severely hampered compared to live
on PTS stealth is utterly and completely useless for Scoundrel spec, it's not even worth the minor effort to use it
on PTS heroic feats like Action Advantage, Twilight Adept and Improved Cunning Sneak now feel like they are totally worthless for Scoundrels
On PTS even with the damage increases to Deft Strike and Blitz, those powers still yield reduced damage for Scoundrel spec compared to live (as do other powers)
Overall, I don't feel like the new Scoundrel spec is an improvement, just a different way of doing the same thing in a slightly less efficient way. I was hoping to find at least a moderate improvement to damage. I expect the scoundrel to use underhanded tactics to daze or otherwise hinder their opponents, sure, but usually that comes with a big payoff by exploiting those tactics to cause some real damage. We got one feat for increased damage on controlled opponents... one... and while it's a good feat, it only brings the spec almost up to par with what's currently available on live, damage-wise. The loss of AP generation is, IMO, also a huge hit to the spec. While I love the new style and extra control effects, I'm left wondering if it's enough to make the loss in damage and AP generation "worth it".
For reference, all testing of the Scoundrel spec on PTS was done on a Master Infiltrator with 15k GS and 21 STR, 21 DEX, 21 CHA using Duelist's Flurry and Gloaming Cut at-wills, Tactics and Skillful Infiltrator class features, Dazing Strike, Deft Strike and Blitz encounters. Mainly invested in Power (5.5k) and Crit (3k) with moderate investment (1,300-1,700) in ArPen, Recovery, Deflection, Life Steal and Defense.
This is the same setup I've used on Live for several months now and it's worked well for me. However I'm finding it may be hard to justify staying with Scoundrel in Mod5 if it remains in its current state. I began testing Saboteur last night for comparison and the difference is like night and day. I still need to get more solid testing in before relaying feedback, but with Saboteur spec, I'm taking dread ring mobs out in less than half the time I did with Scoundrel spec. I really want to like the new Scoundrel but it just feels lacking to me so far.
good work on thoroughly testing scoundrel out, i have given it a few hours of testing and have come to the same conclusions as you have:
-still not enough dps and tank to compensate for loss of stealth and ITC immunity.
-deflect is still inferior compared to HR (TR should have highest deflect)
-mobility is also inferior to all classes (should be fine when our dodge gets fixed)
At wills are really lame:
i thought of a way to fix at will damage and deflect:
Sly Flourish:Increase attack speed 30% (or whatever speed GWF does sure strike in determination mode) and give stacking deflect bonuses per consecutive hit up to 10-15% (could be too much if we get better passive deflect bonuses). This actually makes 'deflect' more sensible as you are attacking you use your weapons to deflect. Can use while moving at reduced damage 20% with enhanced deflect. Moving + Dual wielding daggers = more realistic and dynamic deflect mechanics. Even if one of these features got added id be very happy. I mean, have you watched Sly Flourish animation closely? its not very sly, its more like "HEY EVERY CLASS OTHER THAN TR!!! I AM OVER HERE! COME AND KILL ME IM DOING A SLOW ATTACK"
Duelists Flurry:+20% base damage (DF is really UP in test server), Increase attack speed of first two strikes by 25% and allow attack while moving. Final animation gives full immunity.
This also gets the "CC ME WHILE I WIND UP THIS MEDIOCRE ATTACK!"
Gloaming: Rework the entire thing, this is the most boring at will ever.
Hopefully this could really boost TR damage and defensive opportunities in both PVP and PVE up to the level they should be.
Truthfully speaking, that's going to break the current system and would totally push the TR back to the OP levels it was.
If this is made possible, you don't even need a Saboteuer to 'return back to stealth at whim'. A few dodges and a stream of CoS will instantly put you back to stealth, as well as something like a Daze - DF also puts you right back to stealth, complete with all the high damage encounters to use at your disposal.
IMO the new direction is set. You either use at-wills from stealth and risk the stealth depletion, or you use at-wills outside of stealth.
I think it is pretty clear the messages coming from the devs are;
"No more steady and continuous stream of attacks from stealth, where you can attack at whim but the enemy cannot fight back. If you want to damage someone hard from stealth, then you will use it once you do. If you don't want to risk losing stealth and risk the dangers of being exposed, then your attacks are greatly limited at the price of your safety."
I agree that granting option 1 and 2 at the same time would be pretty OP but separately, it gives the TR an option to re-stealth while under heavy fire.
"Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate."
It takes 10 seconds to refill stealth meter when uninterrupted. As it is now, it's impossible to re-stealth for a non-saboteur without slotting shadowstrike unless they run away from combat which is a hard thing to do for a TR given how mobile they are.
"at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit"
TRs would still lose stealth meter when they are hit which is pretty easy to do for any ranged class and dots can drain/halt stealth gain really quick
A duelist flurry outside of stealth even with daze is pretty hard to pull off and easy to dodge since they would just need to walk away. Although i can see it working with deftstrike-dazing strike combo.
I'm just putting my ideas out there hoping someone would be able to improve it or balance it.
Comments
I agree, with lot of your feedback. But keep in mind that gloaming Cut makes more damage as target health diminishes. So it does not need buff, maybe only a bit faster animation speed.
Shadowborn makes no sense with atwill, but try it with Blitz or or Lashing Blade, and you will feel the difference.
1- TR cannot deal with ranged class currently - we need every second of the 5 second stealth to get our damage through
2- TR is close combat but cannot survive long enough to deal damage - need enough Deflect or Defense to be able to last.
3- TR class need more dodges or they cannot deal with AoE in situations like that of Garakas, PvP
4- TR NEED DPS through a proper RESPECTABLE At-Will like Sly - no DF trance BS or Gloaming cut joke.
5- TR need tricks, stuns, traps.
Stealth based Damage with 2 second stealth = No dps at all. You are turning TR into a joke.
After you finish this - add the Paragon Path to strengthen these BASIC aspects.
These are the things we Main TR players need for running PvP, PvE like Garakas, CN, Malabog, Karru, etc
The Non TR class have UNFAIR advantages against TR:
SW has stuns,soul puppet, dps, knock down - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
GWF-movement(really?),def,dps /
GF - shield, def, stuns, EPIC knock downs/
HR - stuns, dodges, deflects, dps, close combat dps - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
CW - More than enough stuns, AOE, dps, close combat dps - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
DC - Def, stuns, AOE, comparable dps - Ranged - so can kill TR from distance 90% of time
PvE - Starting from IWD HEs, CN, Malabog Castle to Garakas - TR's As*s is handed to this class. Stealth provides that paper thin difference between Useless and Completely Non Playable Fodder Class. Oh and with the critical team work gone - TR doesnt give anything to party. There are tons of such nub things in this class. Seriously its a joke.
Glaoming Cut is a Monstrousity.
Result: TR is the weakest class.
So, you've identified the strengths of the other classes. guess what, TR has abilities to counter. For the ranged powers/CCs you have a choice: stealth to target, dodge to target, or (MI) ITC to target. GF is easy to beat - get behind him/her. HR is a pain (esp combat), but they're very vulnerable to spike damage. For CWs, try stacking a slow effect (from stealth bonus). DC? yeah, good luck. WR will help some and dazes will help. GWF is going to be a dodgefest.
Basically, as a tentative start, you're gonna want to run MI with DS/IS/SB, WR/LB, ITC.
I dunno about that. I've been running my scoundrel currently in dungeons and staying alive quite well. (not to mention pulling up right behind the CWs, sometimes passing some). If anything, mod 5 will definitely enhance scoundrel survivability, even when playing hybrid, and the CCs + VP (Exe rank 2) make a decent combo. I was running on DS, WR, SB on preview, from a suggestion from Kweassa and I was clearing minor HEs by myself. Soul procced once and I was drinnking pots a couple of times, but if you time your dazes to stack, you get very good control in PvE.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Feedback
- The paragon feats seem really solid right now. Maybe Heroic feats changes are still coming?
- I'd prefer just to have faster animations on the roll than more distance. That half second spent standing up always seems to be a death sentence for me, or maybe i am just terrible.
- If stealth is going to drain from at will usage, it should probably be no more than 10%.
- If stealth continues to drain from at will usage, consider having stealth not deplete based only on at will/encounter usage and not time.
- If stealth continues to drain from at will usage and time, consider making encounters only deplete a portion of the stealth bar.
- Stealth draining on damage taken pretty much mandates using that one class feature, why not just remove stealth loss from damage altogether and rework that class feature?
- Provide the ability to turn stealth on/off at will, its annoying to use stealth, dodge, and waste half of the stealth time getting back to a target. Or kill a target and then have to wait for stealth to recharge.
- I am really hoping to see some tuning to the powers for rouge. Some of them take way too long or seem to provide little benefit, especially the dailies. The class features that center around usage of dailies are not really practical to me, TR gains AP so slow, these things are sometimes only a factor once every 5-10 minutes.
- Too many of these powers basically require the TR to wait for an animation - I guess it looks cool to twirl your daggers in the air, but if it takes 2-4 seconds to get to any damage, there is a good chance I would have already had to dodge something and then start over, or take a big hit. I'm sure a lot of time was spent animating these things so is it asking too much to just speed it up?
Profound set is still mandatory....could you please consider to rework feats/stealth itself to cover that 30 per cent more stealth duration of the profound?
In the best case using dayli I have come to the 200K (100K shadow dismise) less dps than other classes with my GS 17k.
this is my rotation:
entering stealth
WR (activating shadow dismise)
DF
Shadow strike (refilling my stealth bar)
active stealth
lashing blade.
Variant with dayli: (Lurker Assult)
active stealth
WR (active SD)
Lurker assault
active stealth
lashing blade(end of SD)
DF (activating stealth in their last strokes)(active SD)
DF
active stealth
WR (end of LA)(end of SD)
Shadow strike
active stealth
Lashing blade.(active SD)
It is not a simple rotation and less in combat.
This rotation does not use ITC with what I risk to do it.
We need to use lashing blade (or another encounter in stealth) reactivated shadow dismise, or will not do enough unitarget damage to beat SW or HR.
And I dont see a problem active shadow dismisse in AoE .
That would put us to the level of other classes in dps. Although I guess it's the old problem ... PVP.
My character has full rank 9, perfect vorpal , legendary golden horn of the dragon, atifacts level 99, 9k power and 90% critical severity, little can improve my dps.
Thx for reading and sorry for my bad english, i use a online traductor.
Edit:this is the real rotation :P
On Live, most of our dps comes from our at-wills (DF mostly).
On Test, most of our dps comes from our encounters.
On live, surviving comes from using ITC in stealth for immunity.
On test, surviving now comes from killing the adds faster than they kill you, or playing a Scoundrel and having stuns. Problems comes from not killing adds, and having nothing to do but die.
On live, Dex is important because it increases our Critical Chance, giving us higher damage output.
On Test, Strength or Charisma is more important, because it increases our damage overall; we don't need Dex, because Stealth (which we will be in when we use our encounters) gives us 100% critical.
It seems on test, you spam your encounters, then run around dodging while your stealth refreshes.
Suggestion - PVE
At-Wills
Our at-wills should allow us to sustain damage. Make them faster, or useable while moving, or when using, they increase defense or deflect.
Surviving
Shorter dodges? More dodges? High Deflect?
Stat Priority
In every RPG, dexterity is the Rogues best stat.
---Make dex give higher deflect than Charisma?
---Make dex increase our damage, not strength (consider it a feat, such as Weapon Finesse). Maybe change our Disciple of Strength?
I would still suggest, that DEX give us 1% movement speed (with of course crit chance or as you suggested, damage bonus). That would make the class more mobile, and would help surviving. Also, it would give us the feeling of a sneaky, fast rogue, like it should be. Sneak attack would need a rework, or need to be tested how Dex speed changes things for PVP. Also it needs to be moved into a different power slot, since it only works with stealt, and new TR-s does not gain anything from it till level 10.
Point blank: If what you have to say isn't going to help the devs tweak upcoming changes, do not post it in this thread. The devs don't care about your opinion of another player. They also don't care what you think of another player's feedback. They do, however, want to hear about YOUR personal experiences with the changes on the preview server and YOUR feedback on those changes.
Personal attacks and bickering will be removed henceforth without notice to the poster.
Do not respond or reply to this notice, instead, use the PM system to address any questions or concerns. Thank you.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
On this I agree. To summarize the points I have made about stealth so far:
the stealth depletion upon use of at-wills itself is a step in the right direction and necessary
the amount of depletion, may be up to debate -- there could be compromises as to a lower depletion value
the rate of natural stealth depletion should be lowered (= base/default stealth duration up)
gentlemancrush and developers, if you're listening please let us try the following:
10% stealth depletion per at-will made from stealth
default stealth duration upped to base 8 seconds
feat [Improved Cunning Sneak] increased to 5/10/15/20/25%, providing extra +2s
the stealth bonus provided by Profound set lowered to 25%, Skulker's down to 15%
..hence, the suggested stealth set up would be;
base = 8s
+ICS(25%) = 10s
Skulker's(15%) + ICS(25%) = 11.2s
Profound(25%) + ICS(25%) = 12s
at-will stealth depletion = 10%
IMO with these settings higher-level gear would be opened up to stealth duration that roughly matches our old Profound+ICS values, opening up the possibility of more TRs made freel to advance to BI/Draconic/other grade gear and finally leave behind the Profound.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I also like the idea of dex for damage, as weapons like daggers are more about accuracy than brute force, and as was said with the reduction in the importance of critical chance for a Trickster Rogue it would let us keep the importance of our 'primary' stat.
I noticed that in combat vs players or enemies, if I am taking damage this feat will not fill my stealth bar to max.
Dazing strikes range from stealth
http://imgur.com/u24Ijyi
I would prefer to see these gear stealth bonuses replaced with something else entirely. With the intent of reducing the prolonged use of stealth it would make sense to tackle this issue now as they skew the testing for the class changes since many are testing with these stealth extended armors and the data learned from such has an unreliable future.
That is actually my thoughts as well. I've only left in the lowered stealth buff values because there most probably would be people who object to it and argue that it's a further 'nerf'.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you thinks it's hard to stay alive while under fire with a trickster rogue, try playing a hunter ranger. I like the fact that you guys have finally taken back some of the power from them. A theif should never have been able to stand toe to toe with several of the classes that they can now do it to. Let alone be able to defeat them easily. After all this is D&D not WoW. Bravo Developers
19k GS, Crit and Crit Sev based with P.Vorpal; Legendary Dex belt and 3 Legendary Artifacts
10.5k power, 3k Crit, 2.5 AP, 3.5k Recov
Ran Sabo build, with the Crit Sev feat from Exe.
A DC, running with High Prophet, Dread Weapon, no belt, and stats still spec'd for healing (i.e. only 500 AP) out damaged me in CN run by 10 million.
DC Righteous Path: 42 Million
TR Sabo path: 32 million
CW Oppressor: 19 million
The DC's 42 million parse was about:
- Fire of the Gods: 17 million
- Divine Light: 8 million
- Chain of Blazing: 5.6 million
- DG: 4.5 million
- BoS: 3 million
My 32 million parse:
- Blitz: 10 million
- Dazing Strike: 6 million
- Gloaming: 4.5 mil
- Whilrlwind: 3.8
- Shadows: 2.1
etc...
I really enjoyed the play of the TR. I think the at wills are still very 'clunky'. They need to be faster.
I think the DC's power still needs a little work - specifically Fire of the Gods:
Fire of the Gods: When you critically strike a foe they are set ablaze, taking 20/40/60/80/100% of your weapon damage every second for 15 seconds. This effect does not stack.
Updated: Righteous: Fire of the Gods: This feat can no longer crit.
Not sure how Fire of the Gods is doing so much damage. The formula is obviously messed up. I think it's doing an AoE too.
You lost me there. You are replying to a GWF Sentinel and mentioning TR and HR and a 'theif'. Trickster Rogues are not thieves as that is an entirely different subclass of Rogue.
FEEDBACK: COMMON POWERS
1. Dazing Strike: Now always activates at the same speed as stealth and should hit targets far more consistently.
Easily one of the best changes so far, although not a stunning CC as we all wanted, the power now activates fast enough to be used in fast-paced combat situations with great reliability and chance to land. The activation speed and it's modest cone range is of great help to both PvP and PvE
Dazing Strike is now worthy to be called the best CC a TR has
2. Deft Strike: Now slows targets for 80% (up from 60%) for 5 seconds (up from 3 seconds).
Another great change. I am very grateful that the developers have listened to the players when we've asked for more potent, and longer lasting slows. Deft Strike now lasts a meaningful time and with good effect -- greatly increasing the QOL(Quality of Life) aspect of TRs as melees. Synergizes especially well with Scoundrel/Melee builds.
Deft Strike is now a reliable gap-closer and makes it easier for TRs to use melee powers
3. Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%)
There seems to be some confusion as to whether the dodge changes have made it to the preview. Seeing how a third dodge definately takes only 33% stamina, I'd say it is implemented, but in a way we can not easily understand.
I want to suggest that perhaps the developers re-skin the stamina bar (like, giving it visually 3 sections?) so players may be able to check and see if its indeed working
4. Path of the Blade: Now hits 3 targets each tick (up from 1) and deals roughly 33% of its original damage.
Possibly mixed feelings amongst many TR players. Those who hate it would welcome this change, those who made extensive use of it would feel it has been greatly nerfed.
Hence, in this case I can only provide opinion based on personal preference -- considering this power has always been a 'passive/autohit' type power which hardly required any skill (and yet, the outcome being much too effective despite being so easy to manage), in my case I approve the changes.
5. Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks to 3 (instead of 5)
A bug fix. Not much to comment
FEEDBACK: COMMON CLASS FEATURES
1. First Strike: Now provides 30% bonus damage at rank 1 (down from 33%) and provides an additional 15% when ranking it up (down from 33%).
Though it is not hard to imagine certain players (especially Executioner players) would find this change displeasing, my opinion is it has been adequately tweaked.
FEEDBACK: BUILD PATHS
1. Executioner
■ Shadow of Demise: Now correctly only triggers on Encounter Powers."
■ Shadow of Demise: Shadow of Demise can no longer activate itself and can only be applied to a single target.
Considering the deadly (perhaps too much) nature of this feat witnessed in version1, I'd say the correction is adequate. Removing self-replication of the effect, as well as proc through at-wills was a bug fix, as we understand.
However, Executioners lack the extra stealth abilities of the Saboteuer or the extra CCs of the Scoundrel. It is my belief that allowing it to proc with multiple targets (with AoE powers such as Blitz or Dazing Strike) is necessary for both PvP and PvE.
I suggest the developers keep the current fixes, but once again allow it to proc with all targets hit with the proc encounter
2. Saboteuer
■ Knife's Edge: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
■ Shady Preparations: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
■ One with the Shadows: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
The fixes to Knife's Edge and Shady Preparations are adequate. Thank you for a quick fix
The 5 second reduction in cooldown for One with the Shadows has made all the difference in the world. It is a welcome decision which makes it easier for Saboteuers to manage their attack rotations and tactics in a much easier manner
The
"in-and-out of stealth" characteristic of the path is now much better represented, and my opinion is that the Saboteuer path can now be considered a solid choice.3. Scoundrel
■ Concussive Strikes: Now dazes the target for .5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds (up from .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second)
■ Skull Cracker: Base daze increased to 4 seconds (up from 2 seconds). Total maximum increased to 6 seconds (up from 4 seconds).
■ Skull Cracker: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
■ Skull Cracker: Now also grants 25% increased move speed.
This version2 is nothing but good news for the Scoundrel path, contrary to the general disappointments faced in version1.
All of the changes are now adequate, and each of the changes have strengthened the Crowd Control aspect of the path greatly.
Overall, since the changes happened the strengthened CC powers have increased both the offense and defense of the Scoundrel path greatly, and it can now be considered almost on par with the other two paths
Moreover, this path synergizes well with the changes to individual powers with great effect.
It is my belief that the Scoundrel path now adequately represents the CC/brawling power of the TR and makes it a fearsome melee combatant.
FEEDBACK: WHISPERKNIFE
1. Advantageous Position: Now provides 20% resistance (up from 10%) and now lasts for 2 seconds per rank (up from 1)
I never thought I'd say this, and most people who've tried the WK path would also be surprised... but Advantageous Position is now actually not too shabby now (
imagine that!!)The reason behind this positive change is actually the increase in duration -- max 6 seconds after exiting stealth.
The increased duration now allows a lingering damage boost even out of stealth, for a time that lasts long enough to use it aggressively.
Especially with the quick stealth depletion in place, what Advantageous Position means for a WK is that (for example) the WK can start flinging all 8 charges (actually 9 in reality, since 1 recharges while you throw the 8 over 4 seconds) from stealth, and even if stealth is depleted along the way the rest of the knives thrown while visible, will have the same base damage as those thrown in stealth. (Minus the extra stealth-related damage buffs, that is) This applies to all attacks, and is actually a great source of damage increase for the WK in general.
However, in terms of damage reduction, I feel that it is still a bit too weak.
This is my suggestion: for the sake of experimenting, let's try in the preview the following set-up: (1) Lasts 4 seconds at rank1, each rank +2s, for a total of 8 seconds (2) Resistance to ranged damage increased to 30% (from 20%) If these changes are too powerful, then the developers may always tone it down to the current level
2. Disheartening Strike: This power has now been correctly reduced by 10% instead of 60%.
The overall changes are acceptable. I feel it is adequate
3. Razor Action: This power has had its damage increased by roughly 100%. The Damage Over Time component tied to Seething Knives now only triggers when the player has points in Seething Knives.
Razor Action: Damage increased by a further 200%.
Still too weak... it is not much noticeable
4. Vengeance's Pursuit: Cooldown reduced to 12 seconds (down from 16).
Vengeance's Pursuit: The first portion of this power can now be activated while moving. The followup portion of this power now activates substantially faster.
I cannot express enough thanks to the developers. The reduction in cooltime, the mobile activation, and the increase in responsiveness when teleporting... this has turned VP into a very welcome addition to the WK and now it is finally beginning to feel reliable
I cannot even begin to express just what kind of difference the
"throwing on the run" makes in terms of mobility. Such a simple change and yet the tactical worthiness of this power has grown so muchThe speeding up of the follow-up teleportation is also good news. This makes breaking out from CCs that much faster and responsive
However, when compared to ITC, the tactical worth of a total CC immunity + 100% deflection, is still just too good for VP to match, IMO.
This is my suggestion: (1) Cooldown further reduced to 10 seconds (2) The 'throw' part of the power also speeded up (3) The 3/6/9% damage debuff replaced with (4) (4) When a VP 'mark' is active on any target, the TR's deflection chance is increased by 3/6/9% IMO, if the above changes are in place, I think we can finally 'call it even' with ITC
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Nice buff, but this power needs to protect us from all sources of damage for 20%, not just ranged attacks. Make it also increase our deflection/mitigation by a small amount.
Thank you for the WK buffs so far, we're getting into something.
Dazing strike - A very welcome change, especially the fast activation. It also opens up a solid array of options for a non-stealthed TR in PVP. DS is now a solid encounter and useful. If DS were a stun then I would be concerned about it's power in PVP but I think that as a daze it remains adequate without being too powerful.
Path of the blade - This power retains it's function and effectivness in PVE while being substantially reduced in it's annoyance factor and power in PVP. Exactly the kind of changes that need to happen.
Lashing blade - I am finding less and less reasons to slot this encounter on my bar. I am unsure how this power could be balanced to be useful in PVE without breaking it in PVP. In any case it doesn't need to deal more damage. Perhaps reducing the cooldown or adding a utility function to the power would be appropriate.
Impact shot - Still very weak and mostly useless. Perhaps adding a AOE burst effect would put it on the map for PVE without making it too powerful for PVP.
Bait and switch - This power is outdated, dead, and obsolete. I am finding no room for it in any situation on any feat path. Frankly if the stealth replenish portion of the power were removed that would be fine by me. It really needs to have a vast improvement in utility functions to be worth slotting, such as - Vastly reduced cooldown, immunity frames while casting, defensive stats boosted for rogue while it is active, and increased HP pool and threat generation of the dummy in PVE.
First strike - With this hopefully one-shotting equally geared squishies will go away. However, I think that rogues will still be able to one-shot lesser geared players, which is not a problem with the TR class alone. Nevertheless, I would expect for there to be some significant outcry when the updated TR goes live, and this is the first ability you should look at with future changes. More to the point I'd like to see it changed to something a bit more situationally useful than "alpha-strike" in PVP, but if you want to leave it here that's fine by me.
Sabotuer - Is starting to live up to the description painted on Page one of this thread. I by no means feel over-powered in PVE when using this path, but I am starting to feel like I could actually contribute solidly to a dungeon now. You might want to look at how Shadowy opportunity interacts with Bloodbath. I have done as much as 20k+ shadowy opportunity damage to a single target via bloodbath, and if that is indeed straight up unmitigated damage as it seems to be then there are concerns with that in PVP.
Scoundrel - Rather pleased with how this path turned out with the latest update. Is starting to live up to the description painted in Page one of this thread. The CC of this path is now adequate and it's main selling point. The toughness however, is not substantially noticeable. The damage as well also seems to be a bit lacking, which could be solved by doing something about the at-will situation. The thing I like most about this path is that while viable, it plays completely differently from saboteur, and I used different power set-ups between the two paths.
Executioner - I have not tested the updated changes to Exe, however, I will say this. The original shadow of demise was the only thing that allowed me to keep pace in the same circumstances as a Sabotuer. While the bug fix was entirely in order, changing Shadow of demise to single target only effectively gutted this feat path.
Final thoughts - TR is approaching adequate levels of performance PVE-wise as far as encounters and dailies go. However, it is lacking in Single target damage, which really should be it's niche role and something it has always been strong in. Single target encounters and dailies are.......underwhelming in PVE. In the past a large portion of rogue damage came from flurry, which is both rewarding and dynamic. While the simple solution would be to reduce stealth drain to 5% or less, perhaps the better option would be to make TR at-wills more useable out of stealth. Stealth adds survivability, increases the rogue's ability to connect with melee powers, and adds no small amount of damage. In order to bring at-wills to the same level as they were before stealth drain, they need to add all of the above while out of stealth - survivability, ability to connect, increased damage. This is currently the most pressing issue for the TR class in preview. Right now every at-will besides gloaming cut not only feels useless and sub-par, but it also feels like we are punished for using them.
I tried now the upper Feat Trea: Saboteur and was quite impressed.
In 1 minute test cycles i dealt up to ~1.200.000 Damage. To compare: i deal on the live Server ~890.000
It's a good damage increase and i only use GLOAMING CUT in this build. You can use Duelist Flurry in additon but it seems that it leads to an small DPS dropp while i use it unstealthed on the training puppet.
In an real battle duelist flurry is still usefull if you need a bit controll immunity and DOT on a Monster while stealth is regenerating.
Saboteur looks for me like the new PvE-Build. The reason is not only the higher damage, it's the handling of encounter powers. If you use an encounter you regenerate stealth which is important for your damage in this build and nothing is better as wicked reminder. Because you get every 15 Seconds the Buff "one with the shadows" which is activated by an encounter power.
That means, i am running out of stealth while i get this buff, hit with wicked reminder with the effect of fully debuff the monster (3 stacks = -21% armor = more damage for me and my group) get full stealth again AND a buff for 10 seconds to deal +20% more damage.
The really good thing is i have enough points left to get the Executioneer Feat "Arterial Cut" which gives me +15% more crit severity while stealthed.
The other side is: How is this build in PvP? An Bad thing could be, you are most of the time in stealth because you can use gloaming cut and it deals not a small amount of damage (12-30K). But on the other side, Gloaming Cut is a slow skill that draggs you automatically near the enemy player which means: You can see him and dodge away. But! it should be tested first. Sadly i got no Queue-Pop on the Test-Server for PvP.
Another thing is: I still want more Damage. I have an damage increase with this build, but it's still lower then the other classes. The 1.2 Million damage are around 16.000 DPS (so say the parser ACT) and i am an 18K GS TR with optimized stats and an similar equipped GWF can do around 23-25.000 DPS. A good enhancment could be: Give Gloaming Cut a small AoE template. Nothing really big only the range of this scissor like movement or give some feats or items with additional combat advantage bonus or we could get more Action Points Gaining to get faster in Lurker Assault or enhance Lurker Assault a bit more.
I really like this build because it feels like a real TR, most of the time i am invisible and dealing a good amount of damage.
Another personal preference in general for the TR from me would be: If am stealth i would get +10% movement speed because it is sometimes hard to avoid AoE Attacks from monsters without sacrificing the precious stealth.
To the dodging changes: I know they are not live, but i would more prefer that the dodge length is be untouched because it would dragg me too far away from my target. And 30% instead of 50% Stamina seems a bit too less. How about 40% and give me the 10% movement speed while stealthed?
Do something with the at wills and make stealth deplete slower with at will use. Oh and DCs desperately need their dps curbed ffs, why can a DC tank,heal,cc and DPS all in one build.
With the stealth meter drain per at-will attack, I feel that more changes are needed to be made for refilling stealth. Executioners pretty much have to slot shadowstrike as a refilling option. I'd be happy to have any of the changes below:
1.) Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate.
2.) at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit
3.) Third strike (flurry) of Duelist's Flurry counts as 1 attack so that it won't drain the whole meter
i like all these things
1.GENERAL COMMENTS ON THE 3 BUILD PATHS
I believe the TR changes are now starting to enter a solid zone.
In case of Saboteuer, while many people were simply awed by the damage of Executioner in version1, some of the TRs who have been testing thoroughly have commented that it is their belief the Saboteuer's the most solid one of them all. With the reduced cooldown of OWTS I'd say this path is almost complete.
In case of the Scoundrel, it received the largest benefits of version2. The turn-out of this path is simply amazing... and equally amazing is the fact that the path comfortably fits both MIs and WKs well. The potential of this path applies differently to MIs and WKs in accordance with the innate differences between the two paragon paths, and thus MI Scoundrels are now quite amazing melees, while WK Scoundrels are the masters of harassment and fast paced in-and-out tactics. Every feat is now quite satisfying -- and even Concussive Strikes... or rather, especially Concussive Strikes.
Concussive Strikes now finally gives the TRs a much needed "silencer" power against ranged attacks or casting, allowing TRs to gain the initiative against ranged attackers. It was incredibly pleasant to find out that I, a WK with no CC breakers, could now escape the dreaded Icy Rays by; Stealth → Crit CoS → inflict daze. In moments of emergency, a desperate CoS stream of attacks pays off as a crit hit will momentarily daze your oppoenent, buying you precious 2.5 seconds to prepare yourself for the counter attack.
In a stealth fight against another TR, as you move around and search wildly for each other, a clandestine fling of a single CoS as your opponent passes by will now daze and momentarily pull him out of stealth, at which point you can fire off a VP mark to track him further and land a big hit, or simply decide to end his stealth with your own by flinging all CoS streams -- you and your opponent, both out of stealth, certain distance between the two -- good situation for a ranged TR.
While the Concussive Strikes daze may seem useless to some, the reality is much different: Concussive Strikes is now a must for any Scoundrel. The tactical worth of this feat, IMO, actually matches that of the capstone Skull Cracker.
I can't say much about the Executioner, as the style of this path does not agree with me well. My impression is the fighting style, rythm of the Executioner most closely matches the "old" TR tactics and moves. It has neither the deceptive and stylish rythm of the Saboteuer, nor does it have the technical and fluent CC tactics of the Scoundrel. The Executioner seems to play almost identically to the old TRs (especially old MI TRs familiar with the use of GC), but has the one-big-hit going for the path. Usually the fights I see a Saboteuer (Scoundrel builds are still rare in the preview) will have the upperhand all throughout the fight, but if it gets caught by that 1-big-hit, then the Executioner wins. Otherwise the Sabotuer does. I'll basically leave the judgement on Executioner paths/builds to other people more used to the path.
One thing is for certain. Now, all three paths are totally different in how they manage a fight. All three are unique, and all three have distinct strengths and weaknesses. When combined with the two different Paragons, effectively it can be said that we are given 6 different sub-type choices of the TR, 3 distinctly different MI types, and 3 distinctly different WK types. Every path plays it out differently, and it has been so much fun testing the different paths with other people.
2. THE NEW SCOUNDREL PATH
Now, since most of this version2 update concerns Scoundrels, I've already commented how much I enjoyed it, and how the CC aspect is now well represented in the TR.
However, there is still something left to be desired, and that is the other feats -- related to adding "strong defense" as a Scoundrel, seems actually redundant now. Particularly the Life Steal related feats.
I imagine the general intent behind the life steal related feats was to make the Scoundrel path sort of like the Combat path HR and Wilds Medicine, but it really doesn't seem to be working out that way.
As many of the players have mentioned, TRs are still much too weak in terms of defense. In this aspect, the best comparison would be with HRs -- same leather-grade armour, and yet while TRs are generally considered squishy, the HRs are considered extremely tough.
Why is this so? I believe the reasons are:
(1) HRs have a variety of buffs for self-protection. TRs do not.
(2) HRs have a deflection rate that averages higher than even TRs.
(3) HRs have self-sustenance(healing) that synergizes with deflect. TRs do not.
(4) HRs have much more active number of dodges.
I've been giving it thought as to how the general defense level of the TR can be upgraded, but not the levels of the HR (which is often considered OP by many, especially in its ability to endlessly heal itself constantly). "Borrowing" the deflect=heal method would be obviously the simplest, as it essentially benchmarks the HRs in its primary defense mechanism. However, I don't think that's the path TRs should go.
Instead, I was thinking about a feat which might sort of work out like the HR defense mechanism Wild Medicine, but instead return stamina for TRs instead of HP.
The reasoning behind this, is tying up successful deflection action with stamina gain will result in the TR defense mechanisms synergizing with each other. Gaining HP would just make it OP since for example power like ITC would be much too powerful with heals, but if the TRs gained stamina for successful deflects, then there would be more dodges to be used -- increasing both the defense of the TR as well as mobility.
It does not directly add HP, so a damaged TR is still damaged. There won't be any bullshi* like the HR where you damage him and he actually deflects and heals more from it (like DoTs) -- but instead the more the successful deflects the more you will be able to dodge and move around faster.
Therefore, adding this function to the Scoundrel path, instead of the redundant Life Steal related feats, would benefit the TRs much more in PvP and PvE.
So, to sum everything up and summarize a suggestion to the Scoundrel feats;
T1
Roll with the Punches: increase the deflection chance to 1/2/3/4/5% please
Bloody Brawler: Redundant. Let's try replacing it with a feat which further increases your stamina regeneration rate by 10%, and reduces the amount of stamina required to dodge by 4/8/12/16/20%
T2
Survivor: Please change the threshold to less than 40% HP
T3
Savage Blows: Redundant. Replace it with a feat that provides 2/4/6/8/10% of your stamina bar regenerated upon a successful deflect
So basically, we put an extra stamina regeneration/dodge stamina cost reduction feat at T1, so other trees may also access it if they wish. If we scale the stamina bar at 100, the old dodges used to cost 50, the new dodges (intended) are now 33, and with this feat a 25% reduction if 5 points invested to it, making it around 25 cost, giving 4 dodges from the get-go.
Then we place a deflect→stamina mechanism at T3, so it remains inaccessible to other builds that chose other paths upto its capstone.
IMO this will increase the TR defense capability as more people might decide to choose the T1 feat, so all TRs who choose this will have at least more dodges, and then the Scoundrel path could make even further use of it through the [deflect=stamina regen=more dodge] mechanism I've proposed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Truthfully speaking, that's going to break the current system and would totally push the TR back to the OP levels it was.
If this is made possible, you don't even need a Saboteuer to 'return back to stealth at whim'. A few dodges and a stream of CoS will instantly put you back to stealth, as well as something like a Daze - DF also puts you right back to stealth, complete with all the high damage encounters to use at your disposal.
IMO the new direction is set. You either use at-wills from stealth and risk the stealth depletion, or you use at-wills outside of stealth.
I think it is pretty clear the messages coming from the devs are;
"No more steady and continuous stream of attacks from stealth, where you can attack at whim but the enemy cannot fight back. If you want to damage someone hard from stealth, then you will use it once you do. If you don't want to risk losing stealth and risk the dangers of being exposed, then your attacks are greatly limited at the price of your safety."
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The pop text description for this powers buff icon incorrectly cites the effect for the Saboteur capstone feat, stating that once every 15 seconds, using an encounter power will refill your stealth meter
Bug: First Strike
Once slotted, this class feature incorrectly retains its damage bonus on the character after it has been un-slotted in favor of a different class feature. The damage bonus persists until after the first attack is made in an encounter or the player changes zones
Feedback: Scoundrel
Please keep in mind that this feedback pertains specifically to my build, which is identical on live and PTS aside from the feat allocations for the reworked Scoundrel feats. I made no changes to powers, stats, etc between the two. My first impression was that there is virtually no change in basic combat efficacy between my live build in Scoundrel spec and the new Scoundrel spec on PTS. listed below are the main differences I've found through hours of testing and parsing combat logs in ACT:
on PTS I deal less DPS and overall damage in a given amount of time using Scoundrel spec, compared to live
on PTS the DPA of all my attacks have been reduced by 300 to over 1,000 damage, depending on the power, using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I am ever so slightly more resilient than on live using Scoundrel spec
on PTS I have noticeably more control effects happening compared to live
on PTS my AP generation is severely hampered compared to live
on PTS stealth is utterly and completely useless for Scoundrel spec, it's not even worth the minor effort to use it
on PTS heroic feats like Action Advantage, Twilight Adept and Improved Cunning Sneak now feel like they are totally worthless for Scoundrels
On PTS even with the damage increases to Deft Strike and Blitz, those powers still yield reduced damage for Scoundrel spec compared to live (as do other powers)
Overall, I don't feel like the new Scoundrel spec is an improvement, just a different way of doing the same thing in a slightly less efficient way. I was hoping to find at least a moderate improvement to damage. I expect the scoundrel to use underhanded tactics to daze or otherwise hinder their opponents, sure, but usually that comes with a big payoff by exploiting those tactics to cause some real damage. We got one feat for increased damage on controlled opponents... one... and while it's a good feat, it only brings the spec almost up to par with what's currently available on live, damage-wise. The loss of AP generation is, IMO, also a huge hit to the spec. While I love the new style and extra control effects, I'm left wondering if it's enough to make the loss in damage and AP generation "worth it".
For reference, all testing of the Scoundrel spec on PTS was done on a Master Infiltrator with 15k GS and 21 STR, 21 DEX, 21 CHA using Duelist's Flurry and Gloaming Cut at-wills, Tactics and Skillful Infiltrator class features, Dazing Strike, Deft Strike and Blitz encounters. Mainly invested in Power (5.5k) and Crit (3k) with moderate investment (1,300-1,700) in ArPen, Recovery, Deflection, Life Steal and Defense.
This is the same setup I've used on Live for several months now and it's worked well for me. However I'm finding it may be hard to justify staying with Scoundrel in Mod5 if it remains in its current state. I began testing Saboteur last night for comparison and the difference is like night and day. I still need to get more solid testing in before relaying feedback, but with Saboteur spec, I'm taking dread ring mobs out in less than half the time I did with Scoundrel spec. I really want to like the new Scoundrel but it just feels lacking to me so far.
CC build TR work, but its like under-CW. Want CC - build CW. Btw, no CC DC (chains just broken now - no root).
Diana (15,4 DC)
BigHalf (15,5 GF)
good work on thoroughly testing scoundrel out, i have given it a few hours of testing and have come to the same conclusions as you have:
-still not enough dps and tank to compensate for loss of stealth and ITC immunity.
-deflect is still inferior compared to HR (TR should have highest deflect)
-mobility is also inferior to all classes (should be fine when our dodge gets fixed)
At wills are really lame:
i thought of a way to fix at will damage and deflect:
Sly Flourish:Increase attack speed 30% (or whatever speed GWF does sure strike in determination mode) and give stacking deflect bonuses per consecutive hit up to 10-15% (could be too much if we get better passive deflect bonuses). This actually makes 'deflect' more sensible as you are attacking you use your weapons to deflect. Can use while moving at reduced damage 20% with enhanced deflect. Moving + Dual wielding daggers = more realistic and dynamic deflect mechanics. Even if one of these features got added id be very happy.
I mean, have you watched Sly Flourish animation closely? its not very sly, its more like "HEY EVERY CLASS OTHER THAN TR!!! I AM OVER HERE! COME AND KILL ME IM DOING A SLOW ATTACK"
Duelists Flurry:+20% base damage (DF is really UP in test server), Increase attack speed of first two strikes by 25% and allow attack while moving. Final animation gives full immunity.
This also gets the "CC ME WHILE I WIND UP THIS MEDIOCRE ATTACK!"
Gloaming: Rework the entire thing, this is the most boring at will ever.
Hopefully this could really boost TR damage and defensive opportunities in both PVP and PVE up to the level they should be.
I agree that granting option 1 and 2 at the same time would be pretty OP but separately, it gives the TR an option to re-stealth while under heavy fire.
"Stealth meter doesn't drop on damage outside of stealth for a steady refill rate."
It takes 10 seconds to refill stealth meter when uninterrupted. As it is now, it's impossible to re-stealth for a non-saboteur without slotting shadowstrike unless they run away from combat which is a hard thing to do for a TR given how mobile they are.
"at-wills outside of stealth refills meter by 5-10% per hit"
TRs would still lose stealth meter when they are hit which is pretty easy to do for any ranged class and dots can drain/halt stealth gain really quick
A duelist flurry outside of stealth even with daze is pretty hard to pull off and easy to dodge since they would just need to walk away. Although i can see it working with deftstrike-dazing strike combo.
I'm just putting my ideas out there hoping someone would be able to improve it or balance it.