I also thought that it'd be cool if CS procs with DoTs.. but that would sort of make DHS like a slightly toned-down version of the old Constricting Arrow. 15s duration, a total of 3 dazes every 5 seconds... I think that'd raise a few eyebrows.
Ah ****. Back to square 1 of theory crafting. Theres not much choice for WK since Sab and Exce both revolve around stealth. And stealth is one thing WK can do anymore.
If Vengeance Pursuit can teleport us behind the target, that may open up the Sab tree for us.
I think we could make some mean work out of Gutterborn's Touch if VP teleports us behind the target
I took a quick look on my TR in preview, I am liking the changes. The feats have a lot of potential to restore burst dps to the TR in pve except there's a reliance on stealth for many of them and the current mechanic doesn't facilitate the benefits of those feats.
What I would like to suggest is this: Currently using an encounter in stealth ends it immediately. I propose apart from Stealth draining normally when activated, that each encounter drains a portion of Stealth instead of terminating it.
For example, using an encounter in Stealth requires draining 25% of it. Players can then time and execute their rotations to maximize the benefit of the feats from each tree, such that there's the possibility of executing 3 encounters within one Stealth activation.
And if players feat for it, they can increase the capacity of Stealth eg. Improved Cunning Streak's 20% would increase the capacity to 120% to allow more allowance in combat maneuver to squeeze in that 3 encounters combo.
If Vengeance Pursuit can teleport us behind the target, that may open up the Sab tree for us.
I think we could make some mean work out of Gutterborn's Touch if VP teleports us behind the target
Actually, I'm currently using the following combo with Saboteuer. Works perfectly in PvE, much more difficult to pull it off in PvP.
Try this fung;
stealth
→ DHS
→ 1~2 CoS shots
→ VP(throw) from stealth, refresh stealth with OWTS
→ maneuver behind target
→ 2~3 CoS shots
→ Impact Shot from stealth from rear, stealth off
→ enemy is stunned, cannot change heading
→ immediately activate VP(teleport)
→ VP teleport activates 3 slashing attacks to backside
→ Return to Shadows x 3 times = 75% stealth filled
→ dodge away,Twilight Adept feat fills 10% more stealth
→ the time spent since VP(teleport) to dodging away fills rest 15% along the way
→ stealth meter full by the time you finish dodge, restealth
Works against all mobs except those with CC immunity or resistance. Excellent and cool way to fight with WK/Sab in PvE. In case of PvP, tenacity makes the Impact Shot stun really short, so it usually will not be a guaranteed connect. The target usually breaks out of stun and starts moving by the time your VP(teleport) lands. If he's got his backside exposed it works the same as in PvE, if not, it fails.
Ah ****. Back to square 1 of theory crafting. Theres not much choice for WK since Sab and Exce both revolve around stealth. And stealth is one thing WK can do anymore.
Make extensive use of ranged encounters with Saboteuer. IMO, at least for PvP purposes Sab is the best choice for WKs, followed by Exec. Exec has more damage, but now with Shadow of Demise bug fixed (only procs with encounters) and First Strike toned down, Sab with its overall increase in damage as well as utility/survivability has Exec beat.
Will have to see if the new Scoundrel changes my opinion of things.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Changes haven't hit preview yet so don't know where everyone else's feedback is coming from. I really love the line of thought on these. Once I have tested I will give the results. I would like to bring up that it would be nice to get a speed boost after a dodge, a way to feat for it maybe, that would really give us a slippery feel Also could be used to pursue foes sacrificing a dodge roll of course.
Finally, I am still seeing daze's in the notes. As mentioned before, a stun would be a much much better option for us do to being melee attackers and having to use most encounters on utility. Would love a stun so we could have a better chance to land our at wills. Just a thought.
Regarding Charisma, my testing shows it was fixed quite a while ago (I was seeing the correct bonuses for it). Please double check that it is actually not working because I cannot replicate it.
I should have mentioned that those changes will be in the next build. They are *NOT* on preview yet.
I will try to be as clear as possible:
My tests show that in a very long run (90 minutes hitting a dummy with a companion to trigger combat advantage) there is no difference in damage regardless the points in CHA.
What actually works fine is the combact advantage stat. To say one: the lantern artifact does indded amplify my damage of a flat 5 per cent.
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fangredwaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
edited October 2014
My background: Rogue specialist - Ranger Shaiya, Rogue Perfect World, Rogue Runscape, ranger Drakensang, and a long list of rogues in most MMOs for the last 5 years.
Class overview: Rogues are sneaky, intelligent, deal devastating damage, Deflect instead of Defense, tricksters, trappers, slippery, disguise artists, escape artists, liars, con men/women, attack speed 2 times that of fighter with damage 60% of fighter, fastest movement speed - sprinter, acrobatic & stealth play style.
Suggestions:
- NO offense meant (may be ) -
Tweaking your view point about TR - WHAT ARE YOU? ANSWER - A ROGUE:
DPS is a MUST. Tweak Attack speed and damage. No DPS = dead class. Single target damage must be implemented in a way that when TR kill one by one - they can easily match a cw who kill all at once - like TR 1,2,3 ... in 10 seconds = CW all dead in 10 seconds. Because its unfair to restrict one entire class to one by one damage dealing when other classes are not.
Attack speed and movement speed must be the highest among all classes - with attack speed 2 times that of fighter and each attack 55-60% of fighter damage with same gear.
Attacks must have interrupts to casting magic/archery
Stuns are a must
Attacking moving targets is a must - currently all u have to do is walk sideways and TR will miss hits
Highest Deflect, minimum Defense and lengthy stealth survive ability (stealth must not break if TR is not attacking) is a must
Stealth is used for surprise ambush attacks and should vanish once attack is sprung but must be unbroken 3 minute for escaping. Stealth is a defense mechanism and ambush mechanism - nothing more. DPS has to be unrelated to stealth.
Acrobatics fighting style needed - more dodges like HR
Ability to look like your opponent need "disguise" ability and the words "tricked" should not appear which is stupid really - who thought of it?. When TR initiates an attack in disguise - his disguise is blown. (same as stealth)
Trapping/bombing Mechanism advised
Escaping mechanism - stealth for 3 minutes if no attacks are made by TR - simulates the sneakiness of the class / escape artist when in danger + more dodging (LOL NOT Dodge distance - that's an idiotic idea) + highest deflect + low defense
For group - critical team work (crit chance buff) needed and must be exclusive to TR
Powers. feats are too complex for their own good and DO NOT WORK OUT AT ALL with each other and those of other classes (lololololol sorry) Makes TR alienated and high chance to get kicked from party
ITC - well every MMO has its version - 5 seconds immunity is not a big thing and is needed.
Reliance on stealth for offense other than ambush is GAME BREAKING. keep things loyal to rogue class They are ambush predators. DPS is bread and butter for this class.
INTERACTION WITH OTHER CLASSES: CREATE STANDARDS FOR ALL CLASSES especially for their interactions and overlaps or you will be lost lol
Also when pvp
-with SW - soul puppets, SW dps, SW Defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-With GWF - stuns, dps, defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with GF - unbelievable High def, knockouts, buffs creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with HR - running up the distance, unlimited HR dodges stolen from rogue class, stuns, dps, defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with DC - I am cool - they are as poor as TR
- any other class - same problems
Conclusion: With no dps or tricks - TR can't dance - AT ALL (broken sorry)
PS: STOP TAKING TIPS FROM PLAYERS WHO CREATE TR TO INVOKE AD lolololol. I doubt you will ever have a functional rogue without players who actually spend time as rogue.
after a few test on mty rogue i haven't played for a long time here some comment. I hope they're constructive enough.
Powers
• Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack Good point if you want to end with permastealth but a big loss in pve cause stealth stay the base of our survability. A 10% would be much better especially when you know how difficult it is to refill stealth while taking damages in combat.
• Stealth: Now also grants 100% Critical Chance in addition to Combat Advantage. very good point in way to make TR (at last) become the single target killer once again.
• First Strike: Damage bonus increased to 33% per rank (up from 5% per rank). Well it a good point to increase damage bonus as TR has lost most of it but still useless because it use a dot for only ONE hit in a combat that could last several minutes, and most of the time the fisrt strike in combat is an at-will which lower the interest even more. IMAO i think it would be much more interresing to lower the damage bonus (20 - 25%) and trigger it on the first power used after entering stealth.
• Whirlwind of Blades: No longer ignores Damage Resistance and Immunity and can be Deflected. Still a good daily when correctly managed TR has to be clever ^^.
• Whirlwind of Blades: Now increases your Power by 20% per target hit (up from 10%). Well done to compensate the loss of damage above.
• Lashing Blade: Stealth: Now strikes with 50% increased Critical Severity. Main source of damage a real good encounter but CD has to be be lowered. almost 18 sec it is too much For instance GWF IBS is only at 12 sec for the same amount of damages.
• Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks on players. at last
• Wicked Reminder: Maximum stacks reduced to 3. doesn't appear on preview server still stack 5 time
• Wicked Reminder: Now reduces the target's defenses by 7% per stack (up from 4%). doesn't appear on preview server still 4%
• Wicked Reminder: Now has 3 charges and 1 charge is refilled every 5 seconds. Charges are a good point makes this power almost a third at will. Due to armor loss this is a great source of damage for all group
• Wicked Reminder: Damage increased by roughly 10%. just perfect like this
And last i think there's three powers that must be redesigned:
duelist flurry: is way too long and too easily escaped.
Shocking execution: Please increase damges it's our last daily and it strike with the potency of a rooted teaspoon. I understand it has been nerfed for pvp purpose but now it is less usefull than an at-will. Seriously based damages are about 4k whereas other class could shoot at a good 10k O.o. We're a single target killers who disapear into shadow dash behind ennemy prepare a massive blow and .... no we just tickle him sorry let's try again. It's a bit frustrating^^.
dodge: lower the cost to dodge at least 4 time. I mean really we are a dodge class design to fight boss side by side with GWF and we have less chance of escaping attacks than a CW. As our armor is on best as efficient than ranger or warlock guess who died first?
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fangredwaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
edited October 2014
Ok tested the changes in preview server
15k GS TR with greater vorpal + lvl 7 enchants
1- Damage increase is very very mediocre. Its like striking stone with needle. Not worth the effort or time.
2- Practical Stealth Duration 2 seconds in battle - NO use at all in PvE or PvP which mean all damage buffs related to stealth are waste
3- All power, feats are STILL useless.
4- No survive ability AT ALL - stealth was the reason TR was surviving long enough to deal damage.
5- TR is dead as soon as mobs, boss or enemy pvper sense the TR
Net Result: TR is a dead class. No practical application for this class. Major Rework needed.
Recommended: Retire the TR class or redesign TR accordingly. (You have my suggestion from my 5 years experience as rogue above.)
Conclusion: Not a rogue class anymore due to catering for non-TR players. Something unique to Neverwinter. Will be dropping this game with these changes or if the TR remain the same.
Thanks for the 2 months of gameplay in case we part ways here. Enjoyed the intelligent stuff that came out of this game.
A powerfull AOE dot on smoke smoke would offer damage, utility and control. Its would be the best tool for clearing dungeon with party and the belts tool to allow the TR to survive out of stealth without necessarely sacrifice DPS.
This was one of the most requested thing by the TR community and would probably address much of the problem PVE TRs suffer of.
The most synergyzing path would be the scoundrel one which is the less appealing at the moment.
DODGE: i dont know why all these people want shorter dodge, i play an hr too....and those are not dodges. So 4 dodges same as now range, ok. 3 longer dodges, ok. 3 shorter dodge, hell NO.
SHADOW-STRIKE: is must have in every build and imho needs at least 3-4 second less cooldown and a semi-decent damage. hitting for 1600 damage critter is quite depriment.
OVERALL CONCERN: executioner path is the only one that scales with gear
Feedback/Suggestion: Dodge idea for you, gentlemancrush, if you're watching.
I like how you've listened to the suggestions of many TR players and finally decided to give some difference to the dodge. However, in this case my opinion is also with the dodges are too long school of thought.
IMO, there are two ways to use a dodge:
One, an
aggressive method of evasion that allows you to evade enemy attacks and then immediately retaliate
Two, a
passive method of evasion where you use dodge to maneuver and simply put more distance between you and the enemy (=or, just simply termed 'running away')
For a very long time many people have tried to use it as method #1, except time and time again we find that TRs are essentially melees, and in order to land the hits that require to be so close, a long, slow dodge simply doesn't cut it. You can successfully evade an attack, but the result puts a certain amount of distance between you and your target that even if you dodge a long and slow power the enemy used, you see all that vulnerable timing and yet you cannot exploit it.
For example, Takedown. The GWF comes rushing in, and take all that time lifting the hilt of his sword, and then come crashing down with it to prone you. Now TD is actually a power with very fast activation, but it has a certain amount of delay time after the intial activation as the GWF swings the hilt downwards.
As an avid fan of fighting/martial arts games as well, this opportunity in fighting games is known as "attacking while the enemy is delayed". It's a common concept in fighting games to lure and bait your enemy to use an attack with a long delay time afterwards the action, and then immediately exploit that weakness and retaliate.
IMHO, this, is what TRs, as the nimble, acrobatic, light fighter, wants to do. The GWF comes in, he swings his TD, and if you're bold and skilled enough you will dodge the incoming hilt strike at the last moment, the attack missing you by a hair's width, and then *BAM!*, a nasty retaliatory Lashing Blade to his flank.
Or conversely, an enemy TR comes in with a telephoned intent for LB. You anticipate the moment, here it comes, and you roll quickly to his flank while he lashes, and then *BAM!* a counter-LB to his side right after you dodge his.
Now obviously, in order for that to be possible, the dodge needs to be shorter, quicker, and immediate, just like the HR dodge -- the TR dodge would probably need to be even shorter and quicker. A lightning speed roll to one side to miss the enemy attack at the last moment, and the result of the dodge should land you close enough to land a retaliatory attack.
...Ofcourse, in reality this is a double-edged sword. A quicker dodge will mean the Immunity time will also end quicker. No doubt, the learning curve of a successful dodge will go up even higher. Some people who used to wield it passively will no doubt complain about how they can't get out of the red circle in one roll.
However, for those who are in favor of aggressive tactics for the TR, a dodge like this is MASSIVELY gratifying once you master it. The stylishness, the action, the feeling of superior skill through practice, and the rewarding feeling when you evade an enemy attack by a hair's mark and land a big counter punch from his flank... it's just no comparison.
...
What gets even better, once this is made possible even more possibilities for build tweaking pops-up where options can be given to increase BOTH defense AND offense for the TRs through combat. For example, you might change one of the dodge-related feats which offer miniscule rewards (such as Switft Footwork, which adds max 10% faster stamina regen...), so it becomes something like...
Feat: Counter Punch
When you land an attack with an Encounter power within 1 second of a successful dodge, the enemy is briefly stunned for 0.5/1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5 seconds
Imagine that. An angry rhino of a GF charges in with Lunging Strike... and then you quickly dodge out of its way at the last moment and retaliate with a strike to his sides, the GF is stunned, you continue the stun with a Dazing Strike... and its a successful risk taken that is rewarded with some major results. Normally it's so hard to get through that big <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shield and CC a GF... but you took the risk, made a beautiful dramatic dodge and retaliation, and now you have a chance to land some big damage... but even better... imagine how you'd feel when you succeed a move like that. That's not a 'passive defense' you did through numbers and stats automatically calculating results for you. That's an 'aggressive counter move' you did through your own skill and reflexes. You did something that takes practice, unlike how a passive defensive is simply a constantly given variable. You probably practice a lot for that, and now, you pulled it off in actual combat. Moments like these are easily the best and most rememberable moments when you play a game.
IMO that, is what many TRs want.
So, this is my suggestion gc:
When dodge is activated while flagged for combat, you roll only half the distance as you see on Live, but at 80% faster speed.
When you are OUT of combat, dodge activates as you've announced -- more distance than Live
My motto for PvP or PvE, it's always the same. Encourage active and aggressive fights in which you need skill, and discourage and weed-out passive elements of the fight as much as possible. GFs sort of have that. You can tell whether he's a good player or not by how he uses his shield. If he just keeps it on all through the fight in a passive, defensive manner, you know he isn't skilled. But when you see someone who puts his shield up and down at the exact right moments, you know he's someone experienced and knows how to use his skills aggressively.
My kind of thinking, is to reward that aggressive attitude towards combat. I'd actually add in one of those "timed-counters" where if you guard an incoming melee attack at the exact right moment, the GF will guard and counter with a shield-bash. It's a cliche, a common skill seen in many games, but there's no doubt it would reward the GF players to learn and practice how to use his shield like a true master of combat -- this kind of special traits and rewards now set him apart from just being a reskinned version of a GWF. Now the shield matters, and with the right timing he can make attackers fear him, knowing that a brainless spamming of attacks will get him countered by a shield bash.
Through these kind of changes, something that requires practice and adequately rewards it all, truly classes in PvP and PvE start to become unique, with their own mastery of arts to boast. At the same time it also offers a character's own weaknesses. What if you fail it? What if you time it wrong? Do you go for the high-risk-high-reward move? Or do you simply give it all up and stay passive? All these choices.
And ultimately, it is stuff like those which make MMORPGs fun!
For the TRs, a beginning of such unique style of combat, would be giving a quicker dodge that allows you to retaliate immediately after a dodge!
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I love kweassa's idea for dodges and retaliate attacks.
EDIT: Although for ranged WKs the longer dodges are indeed useful... maybe make it a feat from either MI or WK?
Stealing from another game here, counter/retaliate mechanic could work off stamina like dodge rolls.
eg. shift+mouse click at precise moment when opponent attacks to counter/teleport behind them/kick them in the nuts/etc.
Shiva TR PVE Butters TR PVP
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fangredwaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
edited October 2014
lol TR need increase in NUMBER of Dodges - the distance must be same as mod 4 - its perfect.
I don't use ITC to kill CW. Stealth and Dodges are my bread and butter.
Rogues need proper tools in their kitty.
All the changes here are worth nothing practically.
ISSUE: Stealth buffs are USELESS when there is only 2 second stealth - which is the case when u get attacked + deal damage lol
Also - right now TR has the 5 second stealth time to deal enough damage before he gets seen - once seen 90% he is dead. The poor class tries to deal enough damage b4 certain death.
With the changes, the net effect is - no dps, instant death - you must be kidding coz this is a joke. Some of us have to play rogue as main class - not just use an alt TR for invoking AD lol.
I need more acrobatics (more dodges - not distance lololol - whose idea was this anyway pfft), HIGHEST deflect (not defense) so that i can manage damage i take and do MY JOB - dps, stealth to stay alive.
Why make all TR dps stealth based and give 2 second stealth - Better to RETIRE TR class entirely.
What you have after these changes is just a fodder class - rogue in name only thanks to NON TR class players meddling in TR business
Bait and Switch should not re-fill stealth anymore
Suggested re-work.
Bait and Switch: Will not refill the entire stealth bar anymore. Will create a dummy/EXACT copy of the player THAT MOVES AND ATTACKS OPPONENTS (Deals 0 damage, attacks just for trickery and illusion).
Stealthed: Refills a small 25% of stealth and will make the Dummy explode when destroyed, dealing damage.
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fangredwaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
edited October 2014
Bait and switch is a useless power without stealth refill. The tag "Tricked" kills its purpose unless the pvper is of less than average intelligence. No sane person is going to attack it. In future monsters will be programmed to avoid it as they are programmed to sense TRs in stealth
I love kweassa's idea for dodges and retaliate attacks.
EDIT: Although for ranged WKs the longer dodges are indeed useful... maybe make it a feat from either MI or WK?
Just a suggestion, not anything solid so far.
The point is, responsiveness and high-octane -- even at the price of a higher learning curve. It just makes all the action more enjoyable, and contrary to popular belief, even 'casual players' evolve and adapt -- as long as they find the game fun enough to learn.
My take on where we might find more 'fun', is with 'the speed of combat and action', and I'm sure TRs can be vastly upgraded in this category. Already I'm finding the Saboteuer tree more and more to my liking because it gives me something to do, a tactic, a combo, a path of action to plan out, practice, and adapt to... and it actually takes practice and skill, which pays off!
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I also like any concept that allows for a measure of actively involved skill. Currently with the dodge it doesn't matter when I dodge (so long as it is after the red indication or incoming attack animation) or even if I end up back within the red after dodging and before the red attack lands and that I am fine. This could be a latency issue I suppose or there could be a 'safety' time extending the dodge or it could just be to realize a dodge within an effect during the wind up -- I don't know just that it seems simplistic and overly easy. This is often realized in the dodging into an enemy (when one can) as you dodge short into them and keep attacking, red lands and you are fine, but one can also dodge out of the red and run back in and be fine too when it hits.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
A few changes to the Rogue will be going to Preview with the next patch:
At-Wills Depleting Stealth
In the end, this change didn't really solve the issues that we wanted it to. There are still some exploitative ways to play the Rogue that we're looking at, but this change didn't end up solving the core issue and hurt normal (and creative) gameplay. At-Will powers will no longer deplete your stealth.
Lurker's Assault
It would be tough to argue that Lurker's Assault didn't need some re-tuning. The damage bonus on it was just too extreme for both PVE and PVP. That said, the change to crit severity ended up being a bit too weak and favored certain feat builds too much. Lurker's Assault 5/10/15% crit severity has been replaced with 15/20/25% damage and the duration is back to 10 seconds.
I hope you all know that you have a huge impact on the direction of the game. The Preview shard isn't just a grace period before changes go live; it is a testing ground. We rely on getting lots and lots of feedback from you guys to make sure we're taking the game in the right direction.
Thanks for being so outspoken and passionate about the TR
~Crucial
Please allow Sly Flourish and Duelist Flurry to be utilized without draining stealth.
Please allow us to make 100% critical attacks from combat advantage. (makes sense)
Please keep the immunity for 5 seconds with Impossible To Catch encounter (this is used by many tr from stealth to revive team members in PVE at times when there is an instant death attack or lots of monsters attacking us.)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
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blazious11Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 331Arc User
edited October 2014
Dealing 100% critical strikes in combat advantage would out of balance in pve - GF gives you CA with mark, gwf can too, HR all the time with passive, renegade cw with feat. In mod 4 you are in CA for a big percentage of combat time. This would render critical strike stat and dexterity completely useless. Crit strike from stealth is good, maybe an incresed rate of crit chance (like+10%) in CA would make sense (like instigator feat, give it to saboteur path). What we need is that at-wills drain stealth at a more slower rate, to make it viable.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
Feedback
Bait and switch rework:
While used not in stealth it makes 2 mirrors on two sides. One of them is player second is dummy. What i have in mind is illusion of blademaster in warcraft 3. Also to make it work then dummy has to look exactly as player and also distance between them must be enough so if player makes mystake and attack dummy instantly then we will be in enough distance from them to make dodges we need+twilight adept and get back to stealth.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Afternoon all! We have a lot of bug fixes and performance changes to address much of the feedback in this thread, but I want to touch on a few of the following changes in more detail.
First up, Dodging. Dodging is awesome, and should feel good. Period. Full Stop. Therefore, in line with the goal of trying to make rogues feel more slippery and mobile on the battlefield (and compensate for their weaker defenses when their tools are down) we are making a big change to their dodges.
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%).
Next up is Dazing Strike. This skill is problematic because it is so hard to land against quickly moving foes or targets not focused on you. Add to that the fact that Rogue AoE doesn't have a lot of strong options in the kit and this felt like a good place to make some interesting changes.
Feels like you are making new Combat HRs from TR with some tweaks. Looks like Dazing Strike is gonna work a thorn strike.While this is this at-will as far as i remember.
Maybe you could make HRs dodges longer in this case too? Just a note.
Feels like you are making new Combat HRs from TR with some tweaks. Looks like Dazing Strike is gonna work a thorn strike.While this is this at-will as far as i remember.
Maybe you could make HRs dodges longer in this case too? Just a note.
IMO it should have been the HRs given the 2 (3?) long dodges, and TRs the short quick 'shift' type of dodge.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
OK in I have two WK TR’s in live – both around the 14K mark, one can perma easily and one cannot.
On preview now either of these TR’s are unplayable in a PVE situation as a WK.
They have no way of sustaining an attack. For example I tried the deflect route – managed just over 50% deflection – result die. Even with 50% deflect damage come to thick and fast to survive and my TR lack a HP pool like other classes get.
Rerolled both as MI – Result both can now easily perma, both now have a good chance of dealing damage and survival and are also imo dealing more damage. As it stands the WK paragon path is dead in preview – you want to get rid of perma stealth – fine, give us some other survival mechanism. Higher life steal, evasion whatever – want to get rid if perma stealth and equalise TR paths – make GC drain 15% stealth and lisenting out for the screams!!!
I am not going to post anymore about this since I feel the WK path is dead – I have stopped playing this class which was my main, not an alternative
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: This power has now been correctly reduced by 10% instead of 60%.
Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: Now lasts 15 seconds (up from 7.5)
Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Does not drain Stealth Meter when used from Stealth.
Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Now deals up to 25% more damage as the target's HP diminishes (up from 20%). This effect is increased by 25% per rank (up from 5%).
I would like to bring this to everyone's attention because it is not appropriate to nerf Disheartening to this extent. First of all WK is offensive and MI is defensive paragon with this changes it is pretty obvious that MI is the best option among the two because aside from ITC you will also have access to Glooming Cut making WK less interesting and desirable.
Suggestion/Feedback:
Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: lasts 5 seconds. can be activated while running
Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: lasts 10 seconds Now deals up to 30% more damage as the target's HP diminishes. This effect is increased by 25% per rank.can be activated while running
With this changes to Disheartening WK can be some sort of anti tank/boss TR, being able to attack while moving is also a big help due to low hp and defense. I would also like to get some attention for Duelist Flurry because it became useless for the new stealth mechanic.
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tankinatorfrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 107Bounty Hunter
edited October 2014
After some test, I feel quite disappointed.
In theory, change aren't bad, but here are the problems in my opinion :
-we lack of survivability : stealth was our only survival mechanic, and it is not available anymore. Concerning the suggested change (3 dodge +50% of lenght), the current dodge is already to long for my taste, and also the taste of most TR players I have in my friend-list. Kweassa had says everything about it, refer to his post, it is clear and pertinent.
-we are now a burst damage class only based on stealth, but without stealth. I have make some test on PvE with friends and I can't stack as many damage as before (and the old TR was already inefficient). DF was my main source of damage against boss, but it is far less effective now (-25% of crit severity, plus some other useful talents that do not exist anymore). a 20-25k LB instead of a 12-16k one can't compensate the reduction induced by the rest.
-WK look nearly useless. No good encounters, no useful daily, useless at-will
-scoundrel had no use. No damage and not so much survivability compared to the two others... If it is not less.
-at the same time, the loss if ITC's total immunity made me unable to save an ally in dangerous situations (big amount of mobs, AoE), witch was a strong advantage in some dungeons.
-Path of the blade was already too long regarding it's old duration, but powerful enought to be used, even if most groups of enemies were dying to fast for it to be really efficient. Now it last longer and is less powerful. What a progress... After some try, I can say with no doubt at all that it will not be a real PvE-efficient power anymore.
-plus some minor details, but this is most a question of global balance... In fact, the last two poinst were just example of how change goes wrong in my opinion.
I don't know how High-geared TR feel the changes, but for my 14k TR, it seems wrong. I loose a lot (survivability, damages over times...) and win few (Burst damage. Yes I one shot my first ennemi. The next dozen ? They kill me, or, if they don't, I spend an hour to quick their buts... But Hey... I one-shoted the first one !...)
Was already hard to level-up (no place in dungeons), and might became even harder...
Also I feel funny when I see suggestion about constitution-based TR builds. In my opinion, a constitution-based build looking efficient on a agile melee fighter is a prove that something is wrong.
I would like to point out that ITC deserves a longer duration, at least 7 seconds instead of 5, specially when you are aiming to make people play a scoundrel spec for an instance.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: This power has now been correctly reduced by 10% instead of 60%.
Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: Now lasts 15 seconds (up from 7.5)
Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Does not drain Stealth Meter when used from Stealth.
Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Now deals up to 25% more damage as the target's HP diminishes (up from 20%). This effect is increased by 25% per rank (up from 5%).
I would like to bring this to everyone's attention because it is not appropriate to nerf Disheartening to this extent. First of all WK is offensive and MI is defensive paragon with this changes it is pretty obvious that MI is the best option among the two because aside from ITC you will also have access to Glooming Cut making WK less interesting and desirable.
Suggestion/Feedback:
Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: lasts 5 seconds. can be activated while running
Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: lasts 10 seconds Now deals up to 30% more damage as the target's HP diminishes. This effect is increased by 25% per rank.can be activated while running
With this changes to Disheartening WK can be some sort of anti tank/boss TR, being able to attack while moving is also a big help due to low hp and defense. I would also like to get some attention for Duelist Flurry because it became useless for the new stealth mechanic.
K9, it's actually a big buff to DHS overall now that gc's post has confirmed that the 60% reduction was an overlook. A simple mistake they made.
Even in its current, mistaken form in preview, DHS is quite powerful, and to think that was actually a mistaken version...!
The total 15 second duration really makes it a QOL change, making it easier to manage the steady-but-powerful DoT, and it always crits from stealth now. Even in its mistaken form of 60% damage nerf, a single application of DHS can rack up to over 20k damage over the course of 15 seconds easily.
For example, using DoTs on a HR is always a shaky choice at best because any deflected DoTs will simply heal them more than damage them -- especially when it fails to crit. Now, DHS will always crit, and you can keep applying DHS a few more times until it goes through deflect, and when that happens, even the mighty healing HRs are significantly damage in the process. You couldn't expect this much with the old DHS.
Should really try it out when new version hits.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
I would like to point out that ITC deserves a longer duration, at least 7 seconds instead of 5, specially when you are aiming to make people play a scoundrel spec for an instance.
Balu
Feedback Encounter: Impossible To Catch (Trickster Rogue) This encounter would do very well with an increased duration of 7-8 seconds (up from 5 seconds)
As is the encounter does not do TR's enough justice. From totally immunity in form stealth to just damage reduction for 5 seconds does not work well at all in pvp or pve.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Comments
Ah ****. Back to square 1 of theory crafting. Theres not much choice for WK since Sab and Exce both revolve around stealth. And stealth is one thing WK can do anymore.
If Vengeance Pursuit can teleport us behind the target, that may open up the Sab tree for us.
I think we could make some mean work out of Gutterborn's Touch if VP teleports us behind the target
Butters TR PVP
What I would like to suggest is this: Currently using an encounter in stealth ends it immediately. I propose apart from Stealth draining normally when activated, that each encounter drains a portion of Stealth instead of terminating it.
For example, using an encounter in Stealth requires draining 25% of it. Players can then time and execute their rotations to maximize the benefit of the feats from each tree, such that there's the possibility of executing 3 encounters within one Stealth activation.
And if players feat for it, they can increase the capacity of Stealth eg. Improved Cunning Streak's 20% would increase the capacity to 120% to allow more allowance in combat maneuver to squeeze in that 3 encounters combo.
Actually, I'm currently using the following combo with Saboteuer. Works perfectly in PvE, much more difficult to pull it off in PvP.
Try this fung;
stealth → DHS → 1~2 CoS shots → VP(throw) from stealth, refresh stealth with OWTS → maneuver behind target → 2~3 CoS shots → Impact Shot from stealth from rear, stealth off → enemy is stunned, cannot change heading → immediately activate VP(teleport) → VP teleport activates 3 slashing attacks to backside → Return to Shadows x 3 times = 75% stealth filled → dodge away,Twilight Adept feat fills 10% more stealth → the time spent since VP(teleport) to dodging away fills rest 15% along the way → stealth meter full by the time you finish dodge, restealth
Works against all mobs except those with CC immunity or resistance. Excellent and cool way to fight with WK/Sab in PvE. In case of PvP, tenacity makes the Impact Shot stun really short, so it usually will not be a guaranteed connect. The target usually breaks out of stun and starts moving by the time your VP(teleport) lands. If he's got his backside exposed it works the same as in PvE, if not, it fails.
Make extensive use of ranged encounters with Saboteuer. IMO, at least for PvP purposes Sab is the best choice for WKs, followed by Exec. Exec has more damage, but now with Shadow of Demise bug fixed (only procs with encounters) and First Strike toned down, Sab with its overall increase in damage as well as utility/survivability has Exec beat.
Will have to see if the new Scoundrel changes my opinion of things.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Finally, I am still seeing daze's in the notes. As mentioned before, a stun would be a much much better option for us do to being melee attackers and having to use most encounters on utility. Would love a stun so we could have a better chance to land our at wills. Just a thought.
I will try to be as clear as possible:
My tests show that in a very long run (90 minutes hitting a dummy with a companion to trigger combat advantage) there is no difference in damage regardless the points in CHA.
What actually works fine is the combact advantage stat. To say one: the lantern artifact does indded amplify my damage of a flat 5 per cent.
Class overview: Rogues are sneaky, intelligent, deal devastating damage, Deflect instead of Defense, tricksters, trappers, slippery, disguise artists, escape artists, liars, con men/women, attack speed 2 times that of fighter with damage 60% of fighter, fastest movement speed - sprinter, acrobatic & stealth play style.
Suggestions:
- NO offense meant (may be
Tweaking your view point about TR - WHAT ARE YOU? ANSWER - A ROGUE:
DPS is a MUST. Tweak Attack speed and damage. No DPS = dead class. Single target damage must be implemented in a way that when TR kill one by one - they can easily match a cw who kill all at once - like TR 1,2,3 ... in 10 seconds = CW all dead in 10 seconds. Because its unfair to restrict one entire class to one by one damage dealing when other classes are not.
Attack speed and movement speed must be the highest among all classes - with attack speed 2 times that of fighter and each attack 55-60% of fighter damage with same gear.
Attacks must have interrupts to casting magic/archery
Stuns are a must
Attacking moving targets is a must - currently all u have to do is walk sideways and TR will miss hits
Highest Deflect, minimum Defense and lengthy stealth survive ability (stealth must not break if TR is not attacking) is a must
Stealth is used for surprise ambush attacks and should vanish once attack is sprung but must be unbroken 3 minute for escaping. Stealth is a defense mechanism and ambush mechanism - nothing more. DPS has to be unrelated to stealth.
Acrobatics fighting style needed - more dodges like HR
Ability to look like your opponent need "disguise" ability and the words "tricked" should not appear which is stupid really - who thought of it?. When TR initiates an attack in disguise - his disguise is blown. (same as stealth)
Trapping/bombing Mechanism advised
Escaping mechanism - stealth for 3 minutes if no attacks are made by TR - simulates the sneakiness of the class / escape artist when in danger + more dodging (LOL NOT Dodge distance - that's an idiotic idea) + highest deflect + low defense
For group - critical team work (crit chance buff) needed and must be exclusive to TR
Powers. feats are too complex for their own good and DO NOT WORK OUT AT ALL with each other and those of other classes (lololololol sorry) Makes TR alienated and high chance to get kicked from party
ITC - well every MMO has its version - 5 seconds immunity is not a big thing and is needed.
Reliance on stealth for offense other than ambush is GAME BREAKING. keep things loyal to rogue class They are ambush predators. DPS is bread and butter for this class.
INTERACTION WITH OTHER CLASSES: CREATE STANDARDS FOR ALL CLASSES especially for their interactions and overlaps or you will be lost lol
Also when pvp
-with SW - soul puppets, SW dps, SW Defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-With GWF - stuns, dps, defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with GF - unbelievable High def, knockouts, buffs creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with HR - running up the distance, unlimited HR dodges stolen from rogue class, stuns, dps, defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with DC - I am cool - they are as poor as TR
- any other class - same problems
Conclusion: With no dps or tricks - TR can't dance - AT ALL (broken sorry)
PS: STOP TAKING TIPS FROM PLAYERS WHO CREATE TR TO INVOKE AD lolololol. I doubt you will ever have a functional rogue without players who actually spend time as rogue.
after a few test on mty rogue i haven't played for a long time here some comment. I hope they're constructive enough.
Powers
• Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack
Good point if you want to end with permastealth but a big loss in pve cause stealth stay the base of our survability. A 10% would be much better especially when you know how difficult it is to refill stealth while taking damages in combat.
• Stealth: Now also grants 100% Critical Chance in addition to Combat Advantage.
very good point in way to make TR (at last) become the single target killer once again.
• First Strike: Damage bonus increased to 33% per rank (up from 5% per rank).
Well it a good point to increase damage bonus as TR has lost most of it but still useless because it use a dot for only ONE hit in a combat that could last several minutes, and most of the time the fisrt strike in combat is an at-will which lower the interest even more. IMAO i think it would be much more interresing to lower the damage bonus (20 - 25%) and trigger it on the first power used after entering stealth.
• Whirlwind of Blades: No longer ignores Damage Resistance and Immunity and can be Deflected.
Still a good daily when correctly managed TR has to be clever ^^.
• Whirlwind of Blades: Now increases your Power by 20% per target hit (up from 10%).
Well done to compensate the loss of damage above.
• Lashing Blade: Stealth: Now strikes with 50% increased Critical Severity.
Main source of damage a real good encounter but CD has to be be lowered. almost 18 sec it is too much For instance GWF IBS is only at 12 sec for the same amount of damages.
• Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks on players.
at last
• Wicked Reminder: Maximum stacks reduced to 3.
doesn't appear on preview server still stack 5 time
• Wicked Reminder: Now reduces the target's defenses by 7% per stack (up from 4%).
doesn't appear on preview server still 4%
• Wicked Reminder: Now has 3 charges and 1 charge is refilled every 5 seconds.
Charges are a good point makes this power almost a third at will. Due to armor loss this is a great source of damage for all group
• Wicked Reminder: Damage increased by roughly 10%.
just perfect like this
And last i think there's three powers that must be redesigned:
duelist flurry: is way too long and too easily escaped.
Shocking execution: Please increase damges it's our last daily and it strike with the potency of a rooted teaspoon. I understand it has been nerfed for pvp purpose but now it is less usefull than an at-will. Seriously based damages are about 4k whereas other class could shoot at a good 10k O.o. We're a single target killers who disapear into shadow dash behind ennemy prepare a massive blow and .... no we just tickle him sorry let's try again. It's a bit frustrating^^.
dodge: lower the cost to dodge at least 4 time. I mean really we are a dodge class design to fight boss side by side with GWF and we have less chance of escaping attacks than a CW. As our armor is on best as efficient than ranger or warlock guess who died first?
15k GS TR with greater vorpal + lvl 7 enchants
1- Damage increase is very very mediocre. Its like striking stone with needle. Not worth the effort or time.
2- Practical Stealth Duration 2 seconds in battle - NO use at all in PvE or PvP which mean all damage buffs related to stealth are waste
3- All power, feats are STILL useless.
4- No survive ability AT ALL - stealth was the reason TR was surviving long enough to deal damage.
5- TR is dead as soon as mobs, boss or enemy pvper sense the TR
Net Result: TR is a dead class. No practical application for this class. Major Rework needed.
Recommended: Retire the TR class or redesign TR accordingly. (You have my suggestion from my 5 years experience as rogue above.)
Conclusion: Not a rogue class anymore due to catering for non-TR players. Something unique to Neverwinter. Will be dropping this game with these changes or if the TR remain the same.
Thanks for the 2 months of gameplay in case we part ways here. Enjoyed the intelligent stuff that came out of this game.
A powerfull AOE dot on smoke smoke would offer damage, utility and control. Its would be the best tool for clearing dungeon with party and the belts tool to allow the TR to survive out of stealth without necessarely sacrifice DPS.
This was one of the most requested thing by the TR community and would probably address much of the problem PVE TRs suffer of.
The most synergyzing path would be the scoundrel one which is the less appealing at the moment.
DODGE: i dont know why all these people want shorter dodge, i play an hr too....and those are not dodges. So 4 dodges same as now range, ok. 3 longer dodges, ok. 3 shorter dodge, hell NO.
SHADOW-STRIKE: is must have in every build and imho needs at least 3-4 second less cooldown and a semi-decent damage. hitting for 1600 damage critter is quite depriment.
OVERALL CONCERN: executioner path is the only one that scales with gear
I like how you've listened to the suggestions of many TR players and finally decided to give some difference to the dodge. However, in this case my opinion is also with the dodges are too long school of thought.
IMO, there are two ways to use a dodge:
One, an
aggressive method of evasion that allows you to evade enemy attacks and then immediately retaliateTwo, a
passive method of evasion where you use dodge to maneuver and simply put more distance between you and the enemy (=or, just simply termed 'running away')For a very long time many people have tried to use it as method #1, except time and time again we find that TRs are essentially melees, and in order to land the hits that require to be so close, a long, slow dodge simply doesn't cut it. You can successfully evade an attack, but the result puts a certain amount of distance between you and your target that even if you dodge a long and slow power the enemy used, you see all that vulnerable timing and yet you cannot exploit it.
For example, Takedown. The GWF comes rushing in, and take all that time lifting the hilt of his sword, and then come crashing down with it to prone you. Now TD is actually a power with very fast activation, but it has a certain amount of delay time after the intial activation as the GWF swings the hilt downwards.
As an avid fan of fighting/martial arts games as well, this opportunity in fighting games is known as "attacking while the enemy is delayed". It's a common concept in fighting games to lure and bait your enemy to use an attack with a long delay time afterwards the action, and then immediately exploit that weakness and retaliate.
IMHO, this, is what TRs, as the nimble, acrobatic, light fighter, wants to do. The GWF comes in, he swings his TD, and if you're bold and skilled enough you will dodge the incoming hilt strike at the last moment, the attack missing you by a hair's width, and then *BAM!*, a nasty retaliatory Lashing Blade to his flank.
Or conversely, an enemy TR comes in with a telephoned intent for LB. You anticipate the moment, here it comes, and you roll quickly to his flank while he lashes, and then *BAM!* a counter-LB to his side right after you dodge his.
Now obviously, in order for that to be possible, the dodge needs to be shorter, quicker, and immediate, just like the HR dodge -- the TR dodge would probably need to be even shorter and quicker. A lightning speed roll to one side to miss the enemy attack at the last moment, and the result of the dodge should land you close enough to land a retaliatory attack.
...Ofcourse, in reality this is a double-edged sword. A quicker dodge will mean the Immunity time will also end quicker. No doubt, the learning curve of a successful dodge will go up even higher. Some people who used to wield it passively will no doubt complain about how they can't get out of the red circle in one roll.
However, for those who are in favor of aggressive tactics for the TR, a dodge like this is MASSIVELY gratifying once you master it. The stylishness, the action, the feeling of superior skill through practice, and the rewarding feeling when you evade an enemy attack by a hair's mark and land a big counter punch from his flank... it's just no comparison.
...
What gets even better, once this is made possible even more possibilities for build tweaking pops-up where options can be given to increase BOTH defense AND offense for the TRs through combat. For example, you might change one of the dodge-related feats which offer miniscule rewards (such as Switft Footwork, which adds max 10% faster stamina regen...), so it becomes something like...
Feat: Counter Punch
When you land an attack with an Encounter power within 1 second of a successful dodge, the enemy is briefly stunned for 0.5/1.0/1.5/2.0/2.5 seconds
Imagine that. An angry rhino of a GF charges in with Lunging Strike... and then you quickly dodge out of its way at the last moment and retaliate with a strike to his sides, the GF is stunned, you continue the stun with a Dazing Strike... and its a successful risk taken that is rewarded with some major results. Normally it's so hard to get through that big <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shield and CC a GF... but you took the risk, made a beautiful dramatic dodge and retaliation, and now you have a chance to land some big damage... but even better... imagine how you'd feel when you succeed a move like that. That's not a 'passive defense' you did through numbers and stats automatically calculating results for you. That's an 'aggressive counter move' you did through your own skill and reflexes. You did something that takes practice, unlike how a passive defensive is simply a constantly given variable. You probably practice a lot for that, and now, you pulled it off in actual combat. Moments like these are easily the best and most rememberable moments when you play a game.
IMO that, is what many TRs want.
So, this is my suggestion gc:
When dodge is activated while flagged for combat, you roll only half the distance as you see on Live, but at 80% faster speed.
When you are OUT of combat, dodge activates as you've announced -- more distance than Live
My motto for PvP or PvE, it's always the same. Encourage active and aggressive fights in which you need skill, and discourage and weed-out passive elements of the fight as much as possible. GFs sort of have that. You can tell whether he's a good player or not by how he uses his shield. If he just keeps it on all through the fight in a passive, defensive manner, you know he isn't skilled. But when you see someone who puts his shield up and down at the exact right moments, you know he's someone experienced and knows how to use his skills aggressively.
My kind of thinking, is to reward that aggressive attitude towards combat. I'd actually add in one of those "timed-counters" where if you guard an incoming melee attack at the exact right moment, the GF will guard and counter with a shield-bash. It's a cliche, a common skill seen in many games, but there's no doubt it would reward the GF players to learn and practice how to use his shield like a true master of combat -- this kind of special traits and rewards now set him apart from just being a reskinned version of a GWF. Now the shield matters, and with the right timing he can make attackers fear him, knowing that a brainless spamming of attacks will get him countered by a shield bash.
Through these kind of changes, something that requires practice and adequately rewards it all, truly classes in PvP and PvE start to become unique, with their own mastery of arts to boast. At the same time it also offers a character's own weaknesses. What if you fail it? What if you time it wrong? Do you go for the high-risk-high-reward move? Or do you simply give it all up and stay passive? All these choices.
And ultimately, it is stuff like those which make MMORPGs fun!
For the TRs, a beginning of such unique style of combat, would be giving a quicker dodge that allows you to retaliate immediately after a dodge!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
EDIT: Although for ranged WKs the longer dodges are indeed useful... maybe make it a feat from either MI or WK?
eg. shift+mouse click at precise moment when opponent attacks to counter/teleport behind them/kick them in the nuts/etc.
Butters TR PVP
I don't use ITC to kill CW. Stealth and Dodges are my bread and butter.
Rogues need proper tools in their kitty.
All the changes here are worth nothing practically.
ISSUE: Stealth buffs are USELESS when there is only 2 second stealth - which is the case when u get attacked + deal damage lol
Also - right now TR has the 5 second stealth time to deal enough damage before he gets seen - once seen 90% he is dead. The poor class tries to deal enough damage b4 certain death.
With the changes, the net effect is - no dps, instant death - you must be kidding coz this is a joke. Some of us have to play rogue as main class - not just use an alt TR for invoking AD lol.
I need more acrobatics (more dodges - not distance lololol - whose idea was this anyway pfft), HIGHEST deflect (not defense) so that i can manage damage i take and do MY JOB - dps, stealth to stay alive.
Why make all TR dps stealth based and give 2 second stealth - Better to RETIRE TR class entirely.
What you have after these changes is just a fodder class - rogue in name only thanks to NON TR class players meddling in TR business
Bait and Switch should not re-fill stealth anymore
Suggested re-work.
Bait and Switch: Will not refill the entire stealth bar anymore. Will create a dummy/EXACT copy of the player THAT MOVES AND ATTACKS OPPONENTS (Deals 0 damage, attacks just for trickery and illusion).
Stealthed: Refills a small 25% of stealth and will make the Dummy explode when destroyed, dealing damage.
Just a suggestion, not anything solid so far.
The point is, responsiveness and high-octane -- even at the price of a higher learning curve. It just makes all the action more enjoyable, and contrary to popular belief, even 'casual players' evolve and adapt -- as long as they find the game fun enough to learn.
My take on where we might find more 'fun', is with 'the speed of combat and action', and I'm sure TRs can be vastly upgraded in this category. Already I'm finding the Saboteuer tree more and more to my liking because it gives me something to do, a tactic, a combo, a path of action to plan out, practice, and adapt to... and it actually takes practice and skill, which pays off!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Please allow Sly Flourish and Duelist Flurry to be utilized without draining stealth.
Please allow us to make 100% critical attacks from combat advantage. (makes sense)
Please keep the immunity for 5 seconds with Impossible To Catch encounter (this is used by many tr from stealth to revive team members in PVE at times when there is an instant death attack or lots of monsters attacking us.)
Bait and switch rework:
While used not in stealth it makes 2 mirrors on two sides. One of them is player second is dummy. What i have in mind is illusion of blademaster in warcraft 3. Also to make it work then dummy has to look exactly as player and also distance between them must be enough so if player makes mystake and attack dummy instantly then we will be in enough distance from them to make dodges we need+twilight adept and get back to stealth.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Feels like you are making new Combat HRs from TR with some tweaks. Looks like Dazing Strike is gonna work a thorn strike.While this is this at-will as far as i remember.
Maybe you could make HRs dodges longer in this case too? Just a note.
IMO it should have been the HRs given the 2 (3?) long dodges, and TRs the short quick 'shift' type of dodge.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
OK in I have two WK TR’s in live – both around the 14K mark, one can perma easily and one cannot.
On preview now either of these TR’s are unplayable in a PVE situation as a WK.
They have no way of sustaining an attack. For example I tried the deflect route – managed just over 50% deflection – result die. Even with 50% deflect damage come to thick and fast to survive and my TR lack a HP pool like other classes get.
Rerolled both as MI – Result both can now easily perma, both now have a good chance of dealing damage and survival and are also imo dealing more damage. As it stands the WK paragon path is dead in preview – you want to get rid of perma stealth – fine, give us some other survival mechanism. Higher life steal, evasion whatever – want to get rid if perma stealth and equalise TR paths – make GC drain 15% stealth and lisenting out for the screams!!!
I am not going to post anymore about this since I feel the WK path is dead – I have stopped playing this class which was my main, not an alternative
Have a fun game all
Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: Now lasts 15 seconds (up from 7.5)
Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Does not drain Stealth Meter when used from Stealth.
Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Now deals up to 25% more damage as the target's HP diminishes (up from 20%). This effect is increased by 25% per rank (up from 5%).
I would like to bring this to everyone's attention because it is not appropriate to nerf Disheartening to this extent. First of all WK is offensive and MI is defensive paragon with this changes it is pretty obvious that MI is the best option among the two because aside from ITC you will also have access to Glooming Cut making WK less interesting and desirable.
Suggestion/Feedback:
Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: lasts 5 seconds. can be activated while running
Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: lasts 10 seconds Now deals up to 30% more damage as the target's HP diminishes. This effect is increased by 25% per rank.can be activated while running
With this changes to Disheartening WK can be some sort of anti tank/boss TR, being able to attack while moving is also a big help due to low hp and defense. I would also like to get some attention for Duelist Flurry because it became useless for the new stealth mechanic.
In theory, change aren't bad, but here are the problems in my opinion :
-we lack of survivability : stealth was our only survival mechanic, and it is not available anymore. Concerning the suggested change (3 dodge +50% of lenght), the current dodge is already to long for my taste, and also the taste of most TR players I have in my friend-list. Kweassa had says everything about it, refer to his post, it is clear and pertinent.
-we are now a burst damage class only based on stealth, but without stealth. I have make some test on PvE with friends and I can't stack as many damage as before (and the old TR was already inefficient). DF was my main source of damage against boss, but it is far less effective now (-25% of crit severity, plus some other useful talents that do not exist anymore). a 20-25k LB instead of a 12-16k one can't compensate the reduction induced by the rest.
-WK look nearly useless. No good encounters, no useful daily, useless at-will
-scoundrel had no use. No damage and not so much survivability compared to the two others... If it is not less.
-at the same time, the loss if ITC's total immunity made me unable to save an ally in dangerous situations (big amount of mobs, AoE), witch was a strong advantage in some dungeons.
-Path of the blade was already too long regarding it's old duration, but powerful enought to be used, even if most groups of enemies were dying to fast for it to be really efficient. Now it last longer and is less powerful. What a progress... After some try, I can say with no doubt at all that it will not be a real PvE-efficient power anymore.
-plus some minor details, but this is most a question of global balance... In fact, the last two poinst were just example of how change goes wrong in my opinion.
I don't know how High-geared TR feel the changes, but for my 14k TR, it seems wrong. I loose a lot (survivability, damages over times...) and win few (Burst damage. Yes I one shot my first ennemi. The next dozen ? They kill me, or, if they don't, I spend an hour to quick their buts... But Hey... I one-shoted the first one !...)
Was already hard to level-up (no place in dungeons), and might became even harder...
Also I feel funny when I see suggestion about constitution-based TR builds. In my opinion, a constitution-based build looking efficient on a agile melee fighter is a prove that something is wrong.
Balu
K9, it's actually a big buff to DHS overall now that gc's post has confirmed that the 60% reduction was an overlook. A simple mistake they made.
Even in its current, mistaken form in preview, DHS is quite powerful, and to think that was actually a mistaken version...!
The total 15 second duration really makes it a QOL change, making it easier to manage the steady-but-powerful DoT, and it always crits from stealth now. Even in its mistaken form of 60% damage nerf, a single application of DHS can rack up to over 20k damage over the course of 15 seconds easily.
For example, using DoTs on a HR is always a shaky choice at best because any deflected DoTs will simply heal them more than damage them -- especially when it fails to crit. Now, DHS will always crit, and you can keep applying DHS a few more times until it goes through deflect, and when that happens, even the mighty healing HRs are significantly damage in the process. You couldn't expect this much with the old DHS.
Should really try it out when new version hits.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Feedback Encounter: Impossible To Catch (Trickster Rogue)
This encounter would do very well with an increased duration of 7-8 seconds (up from 5 seconds)
As is the encounter does not do TR's enough justice. From totally immunity in form stealth to just damage reduction for 5 seconds does not work well at all in pvp or pve.