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Official Feedback Thread: Trickster Rogue Changes

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  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 747 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Ok, this is getting a bit obscene.

    I already mentioned this before, but it seems I need to spell it out for some of you people. Here are some facts that so many of you people seem to be missing:

    1) At-wills drains stealth, but you do not lose stamina when dodging while in stealth
    2) Shadow Strike allows you to use stealth repeatedly while in combat
    3) There are two feats from the Saboteur paragon path that -every- TR without a pocket GF/DC should consider getting - Shady Preparations and Knife's Edge. With Shadow Strike and Invisible Infiltrator you are basically looking at a 35% reduction to your CDs, or 25% without your initial stealth bar. Since Sabo is your stealth-focused paragon path, it only makes sense that if you're looking for more survivability then you should dip into this paragon path
    4) WKs have their ranged thing going, while Master Infiltrators have this class feature called Invisible Infiltrator. This class feature refills your stealth bar when you use a daily. The interplay between this class feature, Shadow Strike, Shady Preparations and Knife's Edge is amazing on a Master Infiltrator, significantly improving your survivability and reducing the cooldown of your encounters
    5) The new name of the game is stealth spam. It's different from perma-stealth - the point is to get in, deal damage, and then get out over and over again
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • matthiasthehun76matthiasthehun76 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    asthazarf wrote: »
    Do you have the slightest idea just how much damage you gave me? Combine what I quoted, think about 9k power, and tell me just which class can not be one-shot by a +50% crit. sev. + 15% CA Lashing Blade at 18k power. Or which mobs won't be decimated by 7 knives (Blitz) at +20% damage from 18k power... seriously, whoever whines about this is trolling big time. You're turning TRs into GWF-CWs and you'll start to nerf them as soon as you see everybody else either quit the game or turn to TRs.

    EDIT: EVEN BETTER! go stealth, do a nice Whirlwind in the middle of a party with 100% power from First Strike, go back in stealth and give whoever's left standing a nice Lashing Blade at double the power in case you hit all 5 targets with the Whirlwind! Hell! If more than one is left standing, Blitz them to hell with that 20% extra damage and the double power!

    You took away some of our damage and unwillingly gave us perma stealth last time you worked on us, but this time you're allowing us to go around 1-2-shooting people. While this'll work great in PvE, PvP will be crawling with TRs... the rest won't even try anymore.

    I really don't mind, since my main is an Executioner, but you'll be getting some terrible whining on this, mark my words.

    All your words match my thoughts!

    Either this makes us, other class players quit PVP for ever or we will all make a TR!

    This is by no means a nerf, these things all together are a huge boost! 100% crit severity in stealth LOL. No need to read further, but i did.

    The damage alone is huge, now pair it with a perfect vorpal or bilethorn!

    Would love to hear a Dev, how should a squishy char survive all these? Reward for what, what do the other classes get as a reward? Instant death. LOL

    PVP is unbearable nowadays except a few classes, with this the perma era will go on, just a bit in changed fashion.

    Bye bye PVP or let's all roll a halfling TR and welcome to clone wars. A game with diversity should not only favor a few classes.

    My guild has nearly 500, but only 2 of them play occasionally PVP, one is me, i can hardly get anyone to PVP, not even the artifact or the AD is enough nowadays to lure them in or if they come, than just to get those two and as soon as they got it, they go back to just PVE. Don't think these changes will attract them to come and join PVP!

    This won't bring life to PVP, but bury it deep. One thing will be easy though, controlling PVP with just 1 or 2 classes will be super easy. LOL
    The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
    Robert E. Lee

    I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
    Winston Churchill

    The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
    David Icke

  • crollaxcrollax Member Posts: 255 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    have done test everything.

    first of all i have a question:: why do u buff that much GC? i have tried to improve my capability on DF for 1 year while im getting kill by OP GWFS, OP CW , OP HR , OP DC they all have been op since 1 year and trs never got it... we had one atwill name is DUELİST FLURRY i train on it and even tho if i get **** by all other classes i tried to learn and improve..

    ok now what happened ?? your low quality pugs cry to DF and cant use DF properly thats why people dont play TR. yea?

    who care about my time? ive just waste maybe 100 hour on just dummy to train myself now there is a random TR's come with GC and can kill me. who the *** need GC this **** barlone or wtf his name disappeared TR if u know how to play i offer u 1v1 for anything.. u are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and u made <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> **** all tr's u dont know any skill about game or anything random forum HERO...

    i can use also GC and destroy ppl i dont cry on it (actually i use) but why u kill DF????
    let people practise and get used to on skills why u make so easy to play with TR????
    do u need to let pug pay more AD and gear up TR????
    STOP THIS STOP RUIN GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> wonderfull game WORTH IT DEVS!!!!!

    ++

    in this game so many snap Class players.. they just play with OP classses there was tons of CW,HR,GWF look first 100 page of LB and see how many TR there

    why??? because its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> sick hard to play and people wanna push back their ego with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> op classes

    make whatever u want i can kill any of these any tr who talk here. ive never even need a buff on TR i was so easy handle JUST U HAD TO NERF HR PEIRCING NOTHING MORE tr werent need buff at all.. yea u think we need cause of pug cry and u buffed

    BUT PLS AT LEAST TRY TO BUFF HARD SKILL CAPP DONT LET ALL <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> CAN BE HERO ON THIS CLASS

    MAKE PEOPLE PRACTISE WORK ON ATWILLS (DF) LET THEM LEARN SOMETHING NOT OPEN A TR AND GC PEOPLE 20K

    ++++

    we were need this:
    -stealth close/open
    -buff little on DF
    -NERF HRS (most <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> class ever come on game ıs HR) in match i go stealth and doesnt mean anything for hr cause he just fallow me all time and its impossible to stand on node more then 20sec even if u are GOD cause if hr is good just kill u in 2 rotation MAX.
  • matthiasthehun76matthiasthehun76 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    LOL the OP DC made me laugh! Sorry i think you never played a DC.

    BUT in many things you are right, we have some threads on this forum regarding PVP and all ask for nearly the same, yes plz dear Devs let us, the normal players have our own Gear Score fights and let's avoid the PUG vs Premade matches too. I don't know, how many times i just had to hear from fellow guildies, that they leave PVP, just because of the elitist nonsense. A money warrior vs a casual player or a 6k vs a 20k LOL, most of the time i am either raging here in front of my pc or just laugh about it, it's so painful ironic. Sure if one gets stomped in the ground he will either quit PVP or pay to get even, but believe me as a GM in my own guild, that most leave and not just PVP...

    These two things are an ease to program and they would at least bring back or keep new players.

    Then a few maps and styles yes, please it can't be so hard or if you don't have time, let the community take care of it. Can't mention a very well known strategic ww2 game, where the games first part was soled and nearly buried, if it were not for the community, who constantly makes mods and maps and they allow it. The sequel took on the same form and it lives. A few test runs from either side can tell, if the map is good or bad. If it turns out the be a one sided map, the community will give it a low ranking and bang it can be thrown out or no one will play it. Actually nothing to loose, we all could win!

    And balance, all classes should be able to kill in PVP, not just a few and the others are the crash test dummies for them or for the elitist players. The achievements should be coordinated according to a specific class, asking a DC to fulfill the Triple Kill, just to become Dominion Champion. LOL
    The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
    Robert E. Lee

    I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
    Winston Churchill

    The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
    David Icke

  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    tyrtallow wrote: »
    Ok, this is getting a bit obscene.

    I already mentioned this before, but it seems I need to spell it out for some of you people. Here are some facts that so many of you people seem to be missing:

    1) At-wills drains stealth, but you do not lose stamina when dodging while in stealth
    2) Shadow Strike allows you to use stealth repeatedly while in combat
    3) There are two feats from the Saboteur paragon path that -every- TR without a pocket GF/DC should consider getting - Shady Preparations and Knife's Edge. With Shadow Strike and Invisible Infiltrator you are basically looking at a 35% reduction to your CDs, or 25% without your initial stealth bar. Since Sabo is your stealth-focused paragon path, it only makes sense that if you're looking for more survivability then you should dip into this paragon path
    4) WKs have their ranged thing going, while Master Infiltrators have this class feature called Invisible Infiltrator. This class feature refills your stealth bar when you use a daily. The interplay between this class feature, Shadow Strike, Shady Preparations and Knife's Edge is amazing on a Master Infiltrator, significantly improving your survivability and reducing the cooldown of your encounters
    5) The new name of the game is stealth spam. It's different from perma-stealth - the point is to get in, deal damage, and then get out over and over again
    Even if those tings were not bugs that will get fixed at some point, we are a DPS class, not a run around uselessly while other classes do all the damage class. Perpetually avoiding attacks wile in stealth will not help in any way. Having infinite dodges won't get you into parties. Secondly you're just talking about some cheesy PVP nonsense that most players don't care about.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
  • edited October 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • dakburdakbur Member Posts: 152 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    WhisperKnife feedback:

    I tested that paragon for the first time since module 2 and it's pure <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

    Vengeace's pursuit's mark needs to last either 30 seconds or forever.

    Vengeance Persuit

    I think VP mark should last ~10-15 sec, but should be a DoT with ~10-15 sec CD. This way, you can usually have a 'single' CC break w/gap closer every 10-15 sec & it still keeps DPS going.

    When you activate the teleport portion, it should proc all remaining DoT's instantly... this way, there is no penalty for waiting to break CC/teleport or doing it immediately...

    To fix the problem where we teleport to where the target 'was' it should apply a micro stun (0.5-1 sec) upon teleport activation so we don't attack empty air... either that or increase the attack range to 15 ft.
  • refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    You mean "from rear-side", right?

    That's actually a pretty neat idea.

    Yes, I suggested that a little while ago in my thread on what they should do with the TR, to be more in keeping with PnP AD&D.

    Combat Advantage comes from Rear Attack or from anywhere in Stealth - so there should be a guaranteed Critical Hit for both Combat Advantage and Stealth, in addition to a CORRECT bonus for the Combat Advantage damage all classes get.

    I love the fact that they decided to have Feats which improve damage when attacking from behind.

    But I also suggested that Critical Severity should be higher. In First Edition AD&D to D&D 3.5, a successful Backstab/Sneak Attack from behind with surprise did Quintuple Damage at high levels. In Neverwinter terms, that is 500% Critical Severity. I do not know enough about 4E to say, and I know nothing at all about 5E.

    500% is probably way too much, but the principle of additional Critical Severity for a Backstab as part of the basic class feature is sound. TRs should have a bonus to Critical Chance and Severity as part of their Deception mechanic.

    Also, a bonus to Deflection Chance as part of the basic Class design, They already have an extra 25% Deflection Severity compared with other classes, but that is no good unless there is a decent chance of it proccing.

    Also, they REALLY need to fix the Illusory Shimmer boon - my Halfling MI's Deflection Severity is now 75.2%, instead of 78% as it should be.


    Also, I compared animations with my TRs and HRs - the HR has much greater Speed, Movement and Distance with Melee At-Wills and so is much more able to land them in PvP. The TR can also flip between Melee and Missile Stance, of course, and so effectively has 6 Encounters and 4 At-Wills to choose from. Marauders Escape to get away, shoot some arrows, then change stance and Marauder's Rush to get back into Melee. Or Boar's Rush or whatever it's called (still learning HR class at 60).

    The TR seems to be very hampered by all the At-Wills except Cloud of Steel and Disheartening Strike. I wonder what Master Infiltrator's use in PvP - Sly Flourish? I have tried both Gloaming Cut and Duelist's Flurry, and I can only really get them to work by using a rear attack when the enemy is engaged with another team member.

    But then, I suspect my skill is lacking, as well...

    But that IS the traditional combat role of an AD&D Thief - not face to face combat with an armoured warrior with a Great Sword.




    :)
  • edited October 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    macjae wrote: »
    That's not really entirely accurate; first, that multiplication of damage only applied to the dice rolled, not to additional modifiers for high ability scores or magic weapons, which meant the real "severity" would be lower. Second, the game featured no other means of thieves scaling damage; damage scaled slower than hit points. In 3rd Edition and later, backstab damage was changed to sneak attack, which gave a number of flat level-based additional damage dice rather than multiply the base dice (i.e. +2d6 rather than x2).

    Yes, we know that - the multiplier applied to base damage, not STR and magick bonus. But I was trying not to confuse the issue with unnecessary details.

    I suggested some bonus to Critical Chance and Severity as part of the Class design from Stealth and Combat Advantage for Rear Attack; not a 500% bonus to Critical Severity per se, but a reasonable amount.

    Also, a bonus to Deflection Chance., certainly when in Stealth, if not a base bonus when not Stealthed.
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I dont' really get how people stack shadow of demise though.I've been trying to do it with dummies and I can't seem to get it right.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    reiwulf wrote: »
    I dont' really get how people stack shadow of demise though.I've been trying to do it with dummies and I can't seem to get it right.
    Hit target, trigger SoD. Restealth before the 6 second timer expires, SoD goes off and the damage triggers ANOTHER SoD stack. Rinse and repeat.

    I tested this myself and it does work. You just need the right encounter loadout and enough Recovery to be able to be in stealth every 6 seconds (or multiple of 6 seconds).
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    enter stealth continuously every 6 seconds? I don't think I can do that, I mean with shadow strike I can enter it more often, but it has a 12 sec cooldown so after using it once I wouldn't be able to re stealth again in less than 6 secs.
    I've tried:
    stealth>lashing blade>shadow strike>stealth>another damage skill>
    but after that all my encounters are on cooldown and I can't re stealth in less than 6 secs, shadow strike is on CD too, and stealth doesn't refresh in less than 6 secs on its own :/
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • twilightwatchmantwilightwatchman Member Posts: 2,007 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    reiwulf wrote: »
    enter stealth continuously every 6 seconds? I don't think I can do that, I mean with shadow strike I can enter it more often, but it has a 12 sec cooldown so after using it once I wouldn't be able to re stealth again in less than 6 secs.
    I've tried:
    stealth>lashing blade>shadow strike>stealth>another damage skill>
    but after that all my encounters are on cooldown and I can't re stealth in less than 6 secs, shadow strike is on CD too, and stealth doesn't refresh in less than 6 secs on its own :/
    Use an At-Will to trigger SoD so you don't drop stealth. It shouldn't work but the bug means that SoD triggers off all damage. That buys you a few extra seconds at the start of the cycle. And if you spec into Sneaky Stabber you can keep stealth up longer. Use SS and BnS for more stealth extension.

    It's actually not that difficult to build a perma Exe using GS and Sneaky Stabber.
    Jenna Sunsoul - Justice Tankadin
    Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
    Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
    Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
    Darquess - Soulbinder
  • samothrace22samothrace22 Member Posts: 359 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Feedback: Gloaming Cut/ At wills
    It feels like we're being forced to use gloaming cut, which is really boring and slow. And now because stealth is so valuable and fits so well with gloaming cut it feels like we're forced to use shadow strike too which I've never slotted before even in pvp. I was never a perma but now I can stay in stealth longer than before thanks to gloaming cut. I really miss DF, but GC is so much better especially pvp. Took me 4 tries to get that dang artifact weapon too. This play style is a lot more boring before. ITC (which is still bugged), SS, and lashing blade, seems to be what all the TRs are running with in preview. Although GC is better, GC definitely makes us more vulnerable since we are less mobile than we were with DF. I will definitely need to amp up my defense if I use this since you get pummeled while sitting still landing painfully slow gloaming cuts. Would be nice if DF didn't drain stealth so quickly
    ────────────────────────────
    SAMOTHRACE
    Trickster Rogue
    ────────────────────────────
  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Use an At-Will to trigger SoD so you don't drop stealth. It shouldn't work but the bug means that SoD triggers off all damage. That buys you a few extra seconds at the start of the cycle. And if you spec into Sneaky Stabber you can keep stealth up longer. Use SS and BnS for more stealth extension.

    It's actually not that difficult to build a perma Exe using GS and Sneaky Stabber.

    I still don't get it, sorry XD
    I know about stealth extending, but what's the use in here? Demise only procs when ENTERING stealth, so why would I care about extending it? it wouldn't proc again, right?
    Shouldn't I aim to end stealth quicker so I can restealth again fast before the 6 secs finish?
    EDIT: my mistake, SoD doesn't proc when entering stealth but with any damage while in stealth
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • crusherbeastcrusherbeast Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    It's the same strike over and over again with that terrible sound :/ It seems to have a lot better aim since I've last used it at least. I've always liked its damage just too squishy for it right now

    And i agree with you 100% that we should have 2 skills which we can use on pvp. But since GC buff its pretty nice to finish off players which DF is not. Also i think devs hate now too much duelist flurry, so i think that at least they should make CoS not depleting stealth. So that we can use 2 mouse buttons in pvp instead of one. But well most important is that we have at least 1 skill if not that gloaming cut we would all could delete our rogues cause on pvp we would be done. So we have to defend that gloaming cut on any cost.
    Also it would really help if they fix itc. Example is this scenario. You keep hitting someone and then u get proned and you use itc so you can defend yourself and go back to stealth. But since itc is bugged you get seen get proned you are visible CW stun you to death and your done since itc won't work for next 14-15 seconds. So they really have to fix that itc since it's not working for 1,5 year now.
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  • reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    yeah, I managed to make it now, I thought SoD only proced when entering stealth, my bad :)
    This will probably get fixed very soon XD
    I got to make 68 million damage with one after 2 mins or so (against a dummy though)
    2e2qwj6.jpg
  • demonmongerdemonmonger Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,350 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    i still know tr would work so much better if combat advantage gave us 100% crit.
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  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Feeback: Hateful Knives

    The 15% stealth depletion from at-wills in stealth, need to be suppressed at least for during the duration of Hateful Knives:Seething knives. The 15% stealth depletion effect is much too stronger than Seething Knives, and practically renders it useless -- my guess being that this is simply an oversight, as Seething Knives were designed before the depletion mechanic was developed.
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  • mojoratmojorat Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 90
    edited October 2014
    Yes, I suggested that a little while ago in my thread on what they should do with the TR, to be more in keeping with PnP AD&D.

    Combat Advantage comes from Rear Attack or from anywhere in Stealth - so there should be a guaranteed Critical Hit for both Combat Advantage and Stealth, in addition to a CORRECT bonus for the Combat Advantage damage all classes get.

    I love the fact that they decided to have Feats which improve damage when attacking from behind.

    But I also suggested that Critical Severity should be higher. In First Edition AD&D to D&D 3.5, a successful Backstab/Sneak Attack from behind with surprise did Quintuple Damage at high levels. In Neverwinter terms, that is 500% Critical Severity. I do not know enough about 4E to say, and I know nothing at all about 5E.

    500% is probably way too much, but the principle of additional Critical Severity for a Backstab as part of the basic class feature is sound. TRs should have a bonus to Critical Chance and Severity as part of their Deception mechanic.

    Also, a bonus to Deflection Chance as part of the basic Class design, They already have an extra 25% Deflection Severity compared with other classes, but that is no good unless there is a decent chance of it proccing.

    Also, they REALLY need to fix the Illusory Shimmer boon - my Halfling MI's Deflection Severity is now 75.2%, instead of 78% as it should be.


    Also, I compared animations with my TRs and HRs - the HR has much greater Speed, Movement and Distance with Melee At-Wills and so is much more able to land them in PvP. The TR can also flip between Melee and Missile Stance, of course, and so effectively has 6 Encounters and 4 At-Wills to choose from. Marauders Escape to get away, shoot some arrows, then change stance and Marauder's Rush to get back into Melee. Or Boar's Rush or whatever it's called (still learning HR class at 60).

    The TR seems to be very hampered by all the At-Wills except Cloud of Steel and Disheartening Strike. I wonder what Master Infiltrator's use in PvP - Sly Flourish? I have tried both Gloaming Cut and Duelist's Flurry, and I can only really get them to work by using a rear attack when the enemy is engaged with another team member.

    But then, I suspect my skill is lacking, as well...

    But that IS the traditional combat role of an AD&D Thief - not face to face combat with an armoured warrior with a Great Sword.




    :)

    Replying to this because your string concepts from multiple end editions together that have no connectiontion to eachother ththen applying them as a single concept. First in 1,2,3,3.5 dnd the thief or rogues role was never damage. In 3.5 you could manage it with a lot of system mastery but wasn't the norm.

    The primary role of the rogue for most of end was..... skillls..... yes that's right the striker role was assigned to it in 4e.

    Second in 1,2 edition you needed the rear and got a x2 x3 or x4 or x5 backstab. In most cases you got 1 or 2 off in a battle. And often did nothing between battles.most characters would also never see x4 or x5 game progression was way slower.

    In 3 and 3.5 facing no longer battered and sneak attack as random d6 is Introduced you met conditions. And it was applied.

    In 4e they added combat advantage and simplified the whole system.

    In all honesty I'd like to see the scoundrel tree trigger damage off of CA
  • topynokattivotopynokattivo Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Feedback (MI - Executioner)



    As a first impression, I do like the general direction of the changes. I think we'll be more useful (and wanted!) in dungeons.

    The burst damage is fun and is important cause we immediately contribute to the fight (the encounter used to finish before we could contribute enough!).
    The AoE capabilities improvement was really needed for our DPS output, and our performance in boss fights shouldn't change much with a couple adjustments to improve our survival chance, such as:

    - A third dodge would be really useful to compensate for the reduced stealth uptime

    - Impossible to catch: IMO stealthed ITC should allow us to survive even the strongest enemy power (I'm thinking about Epic Tuern boss here), so if 50% more DR isn't enough for this (didn't test yet), it should be increased to meet the objective (65%? 75%?)


    About at wills, it seems like gloaming cut (combined with shadow strike) will become our main tool (maybe I'll still use DF when out of stealth). Sadly, there is no artifact weapon for GC. To make artifact weapons a bit more useful, Lurker's Assault could be modified so that it allows to use any at-will without losing stealth for its duration.


    Regarding PVP, I think some adjustments are required as well. First-strike lashing blade is going to cause a lot of whining. A couple of figures about that:

    I have 17k GS, 7.5k power, PVorp. MI Executioner build, no perma. Currently on live server I can hit the dummy for about 25k with plain first-strike crit LB. In PVP it ranges from 6-7k to 20k (apart from class differences, there is a broad variety in players gear).
    On preview server with the new feats I can now hit the dummy for about 70k. Even though the improvement seems appropriate when attacking other classes highly PVP geared players (against which I currently do not stand a chance in 1vs1), it is just too powerful when attacking weaker players.
    To further explain my point, I think it is appropriate for a 17k TR with good gear to one-shot a fresh-level-60 9k GS player (especially if ranged class): this is not a class balance issue but a matchmaking issue. Yet it seems that a vast part of playerbase will be one-shot with these changes. IMO this is not appropriate and will cause problems and likely end up with nerfs.

    A workaround could be to modify First Strike, for PVP only (in PVE it is fine and totally required for the new exec build): in PVP it could give less damage bonus (with respect to preview server, say 10/20/30%) and ignore some damage resistance. This would reduce the one shot occurrences and equalize a bit the damage output against all classes/gear scores/pvp equip (low GS players and squishy classes would not be affected much by the DR ignored). I don't know if it is feasible though.
  • asthazarfasthazarf Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    There's one thing everyone needs consider when giving feedback... something that I actually only just realized, unfortunately:

    What you're testing isn't accurate, due to unresolved bugs.

    Basically, this means that whatever dungeons you run, you're not actually seeing the changes you've read about, but a bugged version of them. So there's no real way to tell how well the class works, until those things work the way they are intended. You may like the way a TR can solo a dragon on preview, or how you can now team up with 4 DCs and demolish everything in CN, but do you realistically think that this is the way it's going to hit live?

    The first part of the feedback should be bug related, followed by appropriate fixes, followed by the actual testing. A "Known Bugs" list on that reserved 3rd post would be nice, for starters. Most bugs will probably be found within 2 weeks. Fix them, so that we have time to test your suggestions before you release them.
  • k9madrushk9madrush Member Posts: 534 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    Official Feedback Thread: Other Balance Changes
    Greetings Adventurers!
    There were a lot of other small improvements we wanted to make to a variety of specs, but didn’t really merit their own thread because they are fairly small and focused. Please use this thread for giving feedback on those changes.
    This thread is not for suggesting new feedback, so please constrain it to feedback on changes that are in the patch.


    Great Weapon Fighter
    Instigator: Allied Opportunity: Damage Bonus increased to 6/12/18/24/30% (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and the Combat Advantage Duration is increased to 1.5/3/4.5/6/7.5 seconds (up from 1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds).
    Instigator: Group Assault: Damage bonus increased to 2/4/6/8/10% for each additional target struck (up from 1/2/3/4/5%).
    Instigator: Instigator's Vengeance: *Rework* Now grants 10% increased damage at all times. This value is increased by 10% each time you are struck in combat, up to a maximum total increase of 50%.


    Control Wizard
    Renegade: Chaos Magic: Fury - Now grants 30% damage and 10% Life Steal (up from 10% and 5% respectively).
    Renegade: Chaos Magic: Nexus - Now grants 30% Armor Penetration and 30% Critical Chance (up from 10%).
    Renegade: Chaos Magic: Growth - Now heals every .5 seconds for 250% of your weapon damage (up from 200% every second).
    Renegade: Masterful Arcane Theft: Damage bonus increased to 3/6/9/12/15% on targets affected by Chill (up from 1/2/3/4/5%) and 1.2/2.4/3.6/4.8/6% per stack of Arcane Mastery (up from .6/1.2/1.8/2.4/3%).
    Renegade: Chilling Advantage: Chilling Presence increases Critical Chance by 2/4/6/8/10% (up from 1/2/3/4/5%).


    Hunter Ranger
    Melee: Piercing Blade: This feat now correctly looks at post resistance damage when calculating how much damage it should deal.
    Trapper: Swiftness of the Fox: *Rework* Your Melee encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Ranged encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%. Your Ranged encounter powers shorten the cooldown of your Melee encounter powers by 3/6/9/12/15%.
    Trapper: Biting Snares: Now generates 20% of your AP (up from 10%), increases your damage by 30% (up from 15%), and Control durations are increased by 60% (up from 30%).


    Scourge Warlock
    Tyrannical Threat: The damage from this power should now benefit from Armor Penetration correctly.
    Creeping Death: Almost all powers that deal Necrotic Damage are now correctly identified as such, and should activate this feat much more reliably.


    *Sigh somebody tell me if there is equality in this game. Alms for TR anyone?
  • edited October 2014
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  • crusherbeastcrusherbeast Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    morenthar wrote: »
    Without all this back and forth BS, I'm going to simply post some suggestions. Some have been stated previously.

    Wicked reminder: Make it ranged providing a 2 sec stun and give it triple damage when used in combat advantage. Range 1/2 of Impact Shot sound good?

    Smoke Bomb: Area effect increased to that of Thorn Ward. Daze/Poison effect lasting 5 sec.

    Path of The Blade: Add stun. Dagger up the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> will slow you down for sure.

    Shadow Strike: TRIPLE THE DAMAGE (FFS if slotting it is so important make it really useful) and add a 2 sec stun (5 sec if used from stealth)

    All TRs: Flat 50% decrease in magical damage received while in stealth. If Stealth is so precious, reward our management of it. Allow the shadow weave that we work with to protect us a bit.

    Scoundrel: Weave in a feat allowing for 100% deflection severity. Scoundrel deflects, Scoundrel takes zero damage.

    These are rough suggestions, but do you see what I am getting at? If we can't be in Stealth so much, we must be allowed to survive especially against casting classes. When we are out of stealth, we would have controlling abilities that provide a "bridge" to us getting back in stealth.

    If that rotation is messed up, then by all means, burn us down. DO NOT RUSH ANY CHANGES TO LIVE. This class needs like 2-3 more months of changes and testing. It was and still is, THAT BAD of a situation.

    Very good ideas. Also don't forget about fixing itc, shadow strike, and replacing useless aggro decrease feat by something else.
    Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools)
    Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
    Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Stealth: it should refills upon taking damage and with time

    loss of stealth/at will should be lowered to 7% MAX if you really want to keep it to allow at least one jumping duelist.

    we should have 1 dodge more

    first strike reworked to give 10% more deflect 10% more stamina gain 5% more hp ( +2.5% more for each level ).

    Low hitting encounters like wicked reminder should not deplete stealth (adjust the damage as you want)

    Shadow strike should not proc "one with the shadow". meaningless

    CHARISMA is not working as intended. it does not amplify my combat advantage damage.

    SWIFTFOOT is bugged and not working.

    Microscounder daze should be stun. it just seems lag.

    Path of the blade should at least proc feats correctly.

    Shadow of demise is correctly proccing from any source of damage ( and we our cooldown too high is needed ) but is multiproccing allowing to 1 shotting bosses after "a while of stacking"
  • isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited October 2014
    From fighting a lot of trs, it is apparent that there can still play perma-stealth only now it is a lot harder to do with them because of the high amount of dps they do. The tr would use gloaming cut, itc, bait and switch, and shadow strike. So basically to beat a tr you still need to catch them in stealth and in the meantime you are still a sitting duck.
    Also infinite dodge in stealth? why
  • donsolo96donsolo96 Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    valenswift wrote: »
    +1, no, +1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 to naicalus words.

    You've put my thoughts into words, man. Everyone of them. Devs, with this changes you are going to destroy us in PVE, for sure.

    And, sadly, I'm one of those fools that made my Duelist Flurry artifact weapon legendary GDN_(

    Please, PLEASE, don't make this changes see the light. Let us as we are now. I don't want any boost dmg if it came like that.

    The key for us in PVE is DPS SUSTAIN, not high dmg pikes. This, maybe, is more a PVP issue.

    I will take your + and multiply it by 1000. Naicalus really nailed it for us poor pathetic PVE TRs. If this doesn't change, it may very well be the end of me for NW after 14 months of playing. VERY disappointed right now.
  • vito1992vito1992 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Feedback: Invisible
    Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack. No! No, no, no, no! Please, please please.
    Feedback: Master Infiltrator: Impossible to Catch
    Don't change this power.

    Feedback: Whirlwind of Blades
    Don't change this power.

    Master Infiltrator: Shocking Execution
    Don't change this power.

    I pray you, do not change...
    I pray you
This discussion has been closed.