I was testing some trying to utilize the stealth more as a "power up" for the next attack, thinking this was likely the intention. Since the overall value of stealth is greatly reduced outside of using it with a strong attack I did not invest any points into improved cunning sneak so that I could utilize them elsewhere. In such a build stealth is down before getting to the third hit of Duelist's Flurry, which isn't a problem with my intention in general since it wasn't meant to be used with Duelist's until I realized that implementing it this way was more difficult than I had conceived. Part of the problem is from muscle memory and how I was used to things, but another problem is that I end up having to actually stop attacking and I have to make sure that Duelist's is finished with the flurry and then stealth and then use something like Lashing. This is not good at all with the chaos of combat and is completely impractical as it requires deliberate pauses, deliberate observation of the animation though all the spam effects and glitter and glow and sparkles (you get the idea). You cannot simply spam queue the action ahead like one used to and that also costs one the reflex time which is at least .25 a sec and very likely more and this becomes another strike against Duelist's Flurry.
TR base mobility has to be improved. We are the closest range striker in the game and often the last into the battle. With the new stealth changes we really cannot afford to stealth and run ahead anymore either (not that we even had the chance that often previously). Just try playing a TR in eShores or eLoL when the SW with the jetpack attacks all the mobs from half a mile away and then kites them around at warp speed with his laser beam/light saber completely unconcerned since that SW knows that if he keeps moving he is absolutely safe. The TR becomes a spectator, but even if the TR had the speed of the SW he could do very little since all the TR attacks plant him and he would have to rely strictly on his ranged attacks (which he really cannot afford to use blitz or PotB in many cases as he has to slot shadow strike now, he has to slot at least smoke or ITC (which Slightly improve survivability but is virtually necessary) and that leaves the TR one encounter for damage (if they don't slot both ITC and smoke) and even then blitz becomes a poor choice in most other cases as one cannot risk the aggro and PotB is worthless since the ranged classes will shred the mobs before it adds any significant damage (assuming you can even manage to run close enough to the faster traveling pack to allow a
few ticks of damage).
TR survivability outside of stealth is extremely poor. One needs a PvP build in eLoL or eShores to even attempt to function effectively as a close range striker, and then it is only to realize that you will perform as bad or even worse at the job of a striker -- the very job that the damage improving changes were meant to improve. Now if the entire party worked around the TR, to address the role and vulnerabilities of the TR this would not be as bad of an issue (still even at the back of many of these mobs they have such a wide arc in their attacks that they still hit you with their swings and can still take a PvE TR down to near death in one hit), but that is not going to happen as it is quicker and more efficient to use any other striker in the game (including the DPS DC now).
Now I know these sound like "worst case" scenarios, and that could well be -- but you should realize that these "worst cases" happen almost all the time. It is yet early into the testing and so I am going by what I have seen so far and hopefully I will not come off too critical in my "cherry picking" (but **** all I see are cherry tree's).
I'm just wondering why, by the love of God, those changes will benefit us, TRs, in PVE?
Why the stealth depletion is a must in PVE? To avoid permastealth in PVE? C'mon...
Why noticed bugs won't be fixed, like CHA CA, for example?...Shocking Execution ridiculous dmg...And so on...
Why do we need all those changes that are going to come? Why?
We only need our dmg up with the same sinergy of powers and feats and, please, FIX all powers and feats that are bugged and don't work as is supouse to do.
Please, don't go ahead with this madness. Really, please.
Well, stealth... The core of the TR..
-15% of 100% of the stealth bar for each at will... feels to high..
This makes cloud of steel and Duelist Flurry highly impractical (PvP)..
I have to agree with this.
As a DC, I have found Perma-Stealth to be a ludicrous and unfair perversion of AD&D.
But, as a WK and an MI, I was saving Glory and Seals to get the Profound Scoundrel to try and get to a Perma State before it gets nerfed. Semi-Perma has been a lot of fun.
But 15% Stealth Drain is too much if it is per hit. Per full animation of multiple attacks, maybe. Or, after the first full animation at -15%, THEN 15% drain per At-Will hit. TRs will then have to be more clever to keep Stealth up, or come out of it.
Having said that, my MI on the test server still has two of her Paragon Feats speced, and Sneaky Stabber still gives +10% Stealth refill per hit to Gloaming Cut. Granted, that is not a good At Will to use in PvP, but against practice dummies without adding any more Feats, she can stay invisible indefinitely with GC, Bait and Switch, Shadow Strike and any Daily - Blood Bath is a good one. Not that she actually needs to use a Daily at all to keep her Stealth up
Also, for both TR and DC, everyone should get a Full Re-spec Token, because these are such radical overhauls, people may very well need to redo some Powers and quite probably their attribute score distribution - such as those with maxed INT and CHA putting points into STR and DEX instead. And certainly for changing Paragon if the build no longer works. The attribute scores on level up were distributed due to the previous mechanics, and if these are all changing, we may need to go for a completely different kind of build. We cannot do that with the same Paragon, Scores and Powers, and certainly not if we still have 5 Ranks in Tier 2 Feats floating in mid-air.
Feedback: i see tier 2 of each paragon are missing a 2nd feat
how about one of these feats; Cunning Stalker - Action Rush - Sneak of Shadows
also please replace Flashing Blades & Arterial Cut with Mocking Knave & Brutal Backstab.
I HATE IT – and to say it because nobody else will - depletion of stealth from using at wills is trash, it does not work and will lose you your TR customer base. Let’s have SW lose15% mobility for every at will, CW lose an encounter for every at will, GF lose 15% block for an at will, and so on.
The TR class and everything they do involves stealth – pretty much all of the benefits to damage from your changes come from, you guessed it stealth.
For example – you state
“Before we talk about the other changes, let’s talk about the big one. Perma-stealth is going to get much harder to play”
Actually pick the right tree and paragon path and it’s easier to perma now – you can now have 3 encounters that refill stealth, and more feats that part refill stealth - so what you really mean is ranged PVP perma is now going to be harder to play. Or to put is another way WK is going to be harder to play – so just get rid of the paragon path if you hate it that much. And to prove that point – is it not the Whisperknife Disheartening Strike the only at will / encounter to take damage reduction – and the only damage that now takes longer to apply.
With these changes you have destroyed the WK paragon path completely, but then it’s obvious from the changes that this was your intention, all of these changes are PVP orientated when the game is mostly PVE – so why not simply bar TR’s (or what seems more apt from your intention the WK) from PVP and leave them alone? 90% plus of the TR population would not care if you barred them from PVP – but go ahead and listen to the PVP population that pen to the forums everyday while waiting in Q’s for their next game, while the rest of the people are actually playing the game.
Read the comments already posted – apart from PVP comments about how great it will be to one shot people, and how great it is to do one shot massive damage against target dummy, everyone hates these changes.
Myself and my TR online friends have already decided to stop playing this class at least – since with these changes there is no point. Any effort and time put into building a character is wasted – I doubt you will read this, and I doubt you will listen if you do – and I am sorry for penning such a negative feedback about what obviously took a lot of effort and work upon your part to construct – but to use your own words – TR’s ands DC’s were going to receive some love, with the depletion of stealth from using at wills, this is not love. If you seriously want to remove perma from the game, just lose one of the encounters that refills stealth – job done.
So. I said PvE TR was dead from reading the changelog. Have I seen the light and changed my tune after a day of running PvE TR?
In short, no.
The Stealth depletion on at-wills was a horrible idea when you tried to put it through a year ago during Mod 1, it is still a horrible idea now. This is not the way to break perma-stealth, it breaks everything *but* perma stealth.
Further: Not only does the Stealth depletion on at-Wills need to go away, we need further durability changes for PvE:
- This shows a complete and utter disregard for the needs of the class in PvE and is 100% about people whining about perma stealth in PvP. Keep the stealth drain for PvP then. But get rid of it in PvE.
Just to reiterate "Keep the stealth drain in PVP. But get rid of it in PVE". Brilliant suggestion and would be behind it 110%. I might also add change or reduce First strike for PVP only as well. These two things would be a great first step in solving many of the issues people are having with TR on Preview in PVP and PVE right now. Maybe we should start a Poll lol.
Most of the proposed changes come from feats. I'm guessing this is because feats are easier to modify than say for example powers. Executioner didn't really need a feat rework, Sabotuer and scoundrel probably did, especially capstone, scoundrel still does.
Rogue really needed a extensive rework of stealth and encounters, and possibly dailies. I don't think we are going to get that.
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khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
edited October 2014
As soon as Duelist's Flurry starts the stealth meter goes to 0. It's pointless to even try to use it. What's the point of Lurker's Assault prolonging stealth now, when attacking depleats the stealth meter faster than LS can refill?
Make the dodge a bit shorter and give us a tqhird dodge. Increase our move speed a bit.
The new first strike is ridiculous and it's only good for one shooting people in PvP. I don't find it very practical in pve.
I find my damage pretty much the same as before, with my crit rate going down considerably. I don't feel that Lashing Blade has 50% more crit severity. I used to do around 20k damage from stealth, and that's what I'm doing now. Is it working as it should? Make Dazing Strirtke hit 5 targets.
I know I'm rambling, and I apologize, but is this really what we get after waiting for so long?
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
Just to reiterate "Keep the stealth drain in PVP. But get rid of it in PVE". Brilliant suggestion and would be behind it 110%. I might also add change or reduce First strike for PVP only as well. These two things would be a great first step in solving many of the issues people are having with TR on Preview in PVP and PVE right now. Maybe we should start a Poll lol.
Most of the proposed changes come from feats. I'm guessing this is because feats are easier to modify than say for example powers. Executioner didn't really need a feat rework, Sabotuer and scoundrel probably did, especially capstone, scoundrel still does.
Rogue really needed a extensive rework of stealth and encounters, and possibly dailies. I don't think we are going to get that.
we don't even need to have stealth drain in pvp. just make it so ONLY cloud of steel drains stealth and perma-pvp will break because you can be seen and hit when close up.
Further: Not only does the Stealth depletion on at-Wills need to go away, we need further durability changes for PvE
WTB Improved Evasion, no damage on reflex save and 1/2 damage on failed save. Either that or ITC to give 75% AoE Resist even when not stealthed.
Feedback: Stealth and incoming damage Having read a number of comments regarding survivability I wonder, is it time to rework Stealth so that it is independent of incoming damage? Similar to the GF block rework.
Obviously at least Tenacious Concealment would need to be reworked as well.
we don't even need to have stealth drain in pvp. just make it so ONLY cloud of steel drains stealth and perma-pvp will break because you can be seen and hit when close up.
Yes this right here. MANY problems would be fixed right there. And THEN you can put cloud of steel back to 12 charges. ( as we all know thats the reason they were nerfed to 8 in the first place)
we don't even need to have stealth drain in pvp. just make it so ONLY cloud of steel drains stealth and perma-pvp will break because you can be seen and hit when close up.
Sorry my friend but I don't think you've fully thought through the implications of this with the new feats.
While stealthed and specced for PVP, base damage on my lashing blade is a little over 7k, GC is around 3.5k, flurry from tooltip is 1.5k. Flurry from tool tip is 1.5k but the actual base damage from JUST the flurry phase is 12k. Yes, that's right, Base damage of just the flurry phase from flurry is MUCH higher than lashing blade. On live this isn't as noticeble, because flurry doesn't auto-crit, lashing does. But if both auto-crit then flurry would do more damage(including the bleeds) than lashing blade would, even with the +50% severity to lashing on preview.
Now in PVP, add either shadow of demise or shadowy opportunity to that and it's too much. As much as I love Flurry in PVP, I have to be honest and say that it would be too much, for PVP, for PVE it would be about right.
On the other hand 15% stealth drain is also way too much. Even at 5% stealth drain 1 flurry is going to eat your entire stealth. If your have max stealth, which is around 9 seconds. Flurry takes about 4 seconds to perform + 60% stealth drain and your entire stealth is gone. If, however under these conditions Flurry is doing all that extra damage, then it's pretty fair. 5% would still be too much for PVE however.
As a current, but unlikely future, scoundrel player, I agree with morenthar in that it needs AP gain again. It also should have some armor debuff, too. As I and many others have already said, the microdazes/"net lag" need to be reworked.
Right now, scoundrel is only viable as part of a hybrid
l3g10nna1reMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 372Arc User
edited October 2014
Upon reading the changes and copying my 15k TR over and testing it on Dummys and mobs Single and aoe I must say changes are quite good however one thing I DO NOT agree on is the stealth drain the TR is a Stealth Class You cannot change this without taking away what it fundamentally means to be a Trickster Rogue its like LOTRO all over again when the people from PVP side complain about a skill and PVE suffers please do not change the stealth depletion if you do please only change it for PVP not PVE
IF you are going to change it please
1: Make stealth Out of Combat full time
2: IF the change is going to go ahead When pressed 5% per tick not 15%
Upon reading the changes and copying my 15k TR over and testing it on Dummys and mobs Single and aoe I must say changes are quite good however one thing I DO NOT agree on is the stealth drain the TR is a Stealth Class You cannot change this without taking away what it fundamentally means to be a Trickster Rogue its like LOTRO all over again when the people from PVP side complain about a skill and PVE suffers please do not change the stealth depletion if you do please only change it for PVP not PVE
The TR is NOT a "stealth class".
It's a class that makes use of stealth as one of its many arsenals. There's a difference. In that sense, the current changes are a step in the right direction. Currently in live, TRs are like stealth junkies. They need to take stealth as often as possible, otherwise they get the shakes, they can't do anything. The total stealth dependancy is ultimately our downfall.
Stealth has been adequately reduced and suppressed, so that now it offers an opportunity to either land a few free-shots in and/or reposition oneself tactically. In other words, you can't do the "neener neener I can attack you indefinately, but you can never see me" any more.
The problem we face is this: at this moment which the TR has finally stepped out of its total stealth dependancy, it now faces the dangers of both PvP and PvE in a raw, naked state. Stealth is no longer a total offense-defense combined into one. It is limited to short bursts.
That means in most of the cases the TR now has to face enemies while in plain sight.
Can we do that? No. We can't.
The base performance of the TR -- particularly defense, is still much too weak. This is the main problem we face.
As I've mentioned before in a feedback, many changes have been provided in terms of increase in DPS, but no changes AT ALL towards defense.
It is plenty understandable why the PvE populace are so angry. Up to date, they've been relying on the very simple mechanics of; (1) stay in stealth (2) spam at-wills (3) mob dead. Now that's gone. Encounters themselves often do not cut it when there are multiple enemy mobs -- strong ones -- incoming. You can't spam attacks from stealth now, so in most cases you also need to face them with your bare, naked, visible <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... and you can't do that.
Asking to go back is not going to happen. The developers clearly did not come all this way so we can whine our arses off to go back in time. The best thing we can do is accept the reality, and come up with ideas and feedback that can make this work.
And it is my belief, that the first thing we need, is beefing up the basic spec/parameters/capabilities of the TR as a fighting individual.
Need to be stronger, faster, evade more quickly, slip away from attacks, and retaliate with ease. That's what we need -- not the WAAAAAAH Gimme my stealth back" tantrum <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i was playing the test server for a while now, and all i have noticed is a massive nerf, i was really starting to enjoy the game and my tr. every other character was almost double as good as tr, perma stealth was the trs only choice to survive and it was not easy to play, you cant just spam the keys and kill some like every other class, you really needed to try to be able kill your enemies. yes tr has a little more damage now but its pointless, every other character will just destroy you before you even get a chance to do anything for example if ur fighting a cw u will get stun locked then ur dead, if ur fighting a gwf u will get stun locked then ur dead, if ur fighting a gf you will get stun locked then ur dead, if ur fighting a hr you will get hit twice then ur dead, if ur fighting a sw they will move around use the beam then ur dead, thanks for nothing, you need to fire at least half of ur staff now, i watched 3 tr's in test server say they are leaving and gave away all their items in the normal server within an hour, i will be doing the same, be sure to watch trade for some free items, looks like its time to reinstall dc universe, i know for a fact that i will never have to deal with major changes in their game that forces you to play a different style and change ur spec every time a new update is released. i wish you all the luck with this game ur going to need it.
I, totally agree. As a purely PvE TR I don't use stealth much, only to re-position, score a crit with LB or use ITC. However, having no problem with stealth drain, I do see a problem with the change to ITC and no changes at all to our mobility and poor dodges. We absolutely need more speed and better dodges as a defense mechanism. The current two rolls are too long and always leave you too far from your target (unless you're a WK). How about making three shorter dodges? Also the delay at the end of the dodge roll needs to go away. We absolutely need to be faster and more difficult to target - after all we should be the acrobats among classes.
Some of the encounters need to be tweaked to be in use with the main mechanics of Saboteuer more adequately, the prime example being PotB. Now, PotB is beginning to show more and more problems as it is essentially a living, breathing case of the "passive, auto-attack" powers that most people feel needs to be addressed.
It is obvious that when the capstone feat, [One with the Shadows] was envisioned and designed, the developers never took into consideration the existence of encounters with persistent effects. What happens is when PotB is engaged with OWTS, the power kicks into action at its double-speed, stealth version, but your stealth is refilled and remains constant. Since encounters don't drain stealth meter, unlike at-wills, the PotB hits at double speed -- twice per second -- with:
(a) 15~20% damage buff from Combat Advantage
(b) max 25% and slowl diminishing damage buff from Ambusher's Haste
(c) 75% of your weapon damage with each hit (375 for most people) that is piercing damage from Shadowy Opportunity
(d) all the rest miniscule 5% damage buffs in place
(e) 100% critical due to stealth
...you do the math on what this does to people. You don't even need to do anything. Just engage it from stealth and walk around for 10 seconds and your target is just shredded to bits.
Obviously, there are more overlooks and big and small design flaws the developers need to weed out. In case of PotB, my opinion is the whole power itself is a design flaw in the first place, and should be changed to reward active, aggressive combat action, and discourage the current passive, automatic nature of the power.
My suggestion with PotB is constant -- either change it into a more "active" version, or respect the D&D 4th lore.
■ "Active" version: change it into a time-limited attack option which works exactly like Piercing Blades -- additional attack damage with every melee attack you make. This requires you to actively seek out and attack enemies for the effect to take place, instead of the current dumbshi* "I walk around and my opponent just keels over" or "dance around all stealth nearby you is peeled" pile of cheesy crapheap.
■ "Lore" version: activating power gives you "aiming queue" like IBS or Seismic Shot. Aim and fire, and the TR charges along the aimed path, and stabs and stuns all enemies caught in its path, the TR being IMMUNE to damage and CC while on the move. This version more closely matches what it is like in actual D&D4th.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
Feedback: I would suggest critical strike happens not when you are in stealth.. but whenever you have combat advantage.
This is more in line with how tr should work
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
I would suggest critical strike happens not when you are in stealth.. but whenever you have combat advantage.
This is more in line with how tr should work
You mean "from rear-side", right?
That's actually a pretty neat idea.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Need to be stronger, faster, evade more quickly, slip away from attacks, and retaliate with ease. That's what we need -- not the WAAAAAAH Gimme my stealth back" tantrum <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
We absolutely need more speed and better dodges as a defense mechanism. The current two rolls are too long and always leave you too far from your target. (unless you're a WK).
Have you tried dodging towards (into) the enemy, instead of away from it? Dodging in the red counts as a dodge also... you take no damage, and are right where you're supposed to be for your next hits... requires a bit of timing, which is different for some AoEs, but so far managed it wherever I tried it. (just noticed this a few weeks ago, myself)
Unless the red area is followed by a DoT effect, such as the poison cloud from Charthraxis. In that case dodge the hell away, lol :P
(a) 15~20% damage buff from Combat Advantage
(b) max 25% and slowl diminishing damage buff from Ambusher's Haste
(c) 75% of your weapon damage with each hit (375 for most people) that is piercing damage from Shadowy Opportunity
(d) all the rest miniscule 5% damage buffs in place
(e) 100% critical due to stealth
...you do the math on what this does to people. You don't even need to do anything. Just engage it from stealth and walk around for 10 seconds and your target is just shredded to bits.
Obviously, there are more overlooks and big and small design flaws the developers need to weed out. In case of PotB, my opinion is the whole power itself is a design flaw in the first place, and should be changed to reward active, aggressive combat action, and discourage the current passive, automatic nature of the power.
FALSE! POTB does NOT proc piercing damage or any feats at all.
Does not proc piercing 9shadowy opportunity)
Does not proc return to shadows/one with the shadow
does not proc the +25% bonus damage feat while in stealth.
does not proc weapon enchants.
nothing.
Shadow strike instead procs one with the shadows....and this is sad.
A refilling encounter should not trigger a refilling feat with 20 sec internal CD
Feedback: Cloud of Steel and Whisperknives This one's a very direct and easy-to-understand feedback/suggestion. Why does our CoS has only 8 charges, reduced from what formerly used to be 12?
Because before, the long and repeating stealth made it possible for people to spam CoS in stealth, which hit longer and harder for 12 streaks. Now, this is no longer the concern since the system does not allow you to spam long streaks of CoS from stealth. The stealth itself being limited, you find yourself more and more having to fight without any stealth.
The problem is, Whisperknives are basically specialized (at least, by the looks of Paragon powers and features) for ranged knife-throwing type of combat:
paragon encounter is a ranged power
paragon at-will is a ranged power
the first paragon class feature increases ranged attack damage
the second paragon class feature flings knives while doing a daily
the third and final paragon class feature gives you (shi**y amounts, but still) ranged damage resistance
WKs are usually limited to longer fighting ranges due to lack of ITC, with the CoS/DHS setups becoming more and more preferred over the last few months since the disclosure of variety of WK-perma tactics coming from wonderful players. For WKs, encounters are limited in use through generally long cooldowns, and the 1 melee + 1 ranged at-will set-up is usually better optimized for Master Infiltrators, as their ITC offers opportunities to mix in close-ranged fights despite CCs and heavy attacks flying around everywhere
...and in this kind of environment, more and more WKs including myself are finding that 8 knives just isn't enough to fight ranged. After a few throws, your 8 charges are gone, and while powerful the DHS still ticks only once per second at a steady rate. Compared to that, the MIs have the exact same number of CoS charges, and wield a far more powerful weapon that has been recently buffed to extreme usefulness (Gloaming Cut).
Suggestion
Whisperknives are still considered to be vastly underpowered compared to MIs. OK, fine. We're never gonna get a utility as powerful as ITC unless we get ITC ourselves. Then so be it. Then let the Whisperknives do something that the MIs can never do -- throw knives like crazy, which hurts like hell.
■ Dagger Threat: let this underperforming class feature be something useful for WKs
effect distance increased to 30' (up from 20')
increase damage of projectile attacks by 10/20/30% (up from 5/10/15%)
increase the charges of CoS by 2/4/6 (so the charges are up to 10/12/14 shots)
if increasing the number of charges cannot be done, then alternately decrease the regen time of CoS charges by 1.0/1.5/2.0 seconds
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Shadow strike instead procs one with the shadows....and this is sad.
A refilling encounter should not trigger a refilling feat with 20 sec internal CD
I don't see any problems with that one, but the real problem is OWTS proccing when you're already full stealth meter. This makes it counter intuitive especially with certain ranged encounters that is sometimes fired off at the beginning of the fight (like VP or IS for example).
IMO OWTS should be consumed only when the stealth meter is not full.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Comments
I was testing some trying to utilize the stealth more as a "power up" for the next attack, thinking this was likely the intention. Since the overall value of stealth is greatly reduced outside of using it with a strong attack I did not invest any points into improved cunning sneak so that I could utilize them elsewhere. In such a build stealth is down before getting to the third hit of Duelist's Flurry, which isn't a problem with my intention in general since it wasn't meant to be used with Duelist's until I realized that implementing it this way was more difficult than I had conceived. Part of the problem is from muscle memory and how I was used to things, but another problem is that I end up having to actually stop attacking and I have to make sure that Duelist's is finished with the flurry and then stealth and then use something like Lashing. This is not good at all with the chaos of combat and is completely impractical as it requires deliberate pauses, deliberate observation of the animation though all the spam effects and glitter and glow and sparkles (you get the idea). You cannot simply spam queue the action ahead like one used to and that also costs one the reflex time which is at least .25 a sec and very likely more and this becomes another strike against Duelist's Flurry.
TR base mobility has to be improved. We are the closest range striker in the game and often the last into the battle. With the new stealth changes we really cannot afford to stealth and run ahead anymore either (not that we even had the chance that often previously). Just try playing a TR in eShores or eLoL when the SW with the jetpack attacks all the mobs from half a mile away and then kites them around at warp speed with his laser beam/light saber completely unconcerned since that SW knows that if he keeps moving he is absolutely safe. The TR becomes a spectator, but even if the TR had the speed of the SW he could do very little since all the TR attacks plant him and he would have to rely strictly on his ranged attacks (which he really cannot afford to use blitz or PotB in many cases as he has to slot shadow strike now, he has to slot at least smoke or ITC (which Slightly improve survivability but is virtually necessary) and that leaves the TR one encounter for damage (if they don't slot both ITC and smoke) and even then blitz becomes a poor choice in most other cases as one cannot risk the aggro and PotB is worthless since the ranged classes will shred the mobs before it adds any significant damage (assuming you can even manage to run close enough to the faster traveling pack to allow a
few ticks of damage).
TR survivability outside of stealth is extremely poor. One needs a PvP build in eLoL or eShores to even attempt to function effectively as a close range striker, and then it is only to realize that you will perform as bad or even worse at the job of a striker -- the very job that the damage improving changes were meant to improve. Now if the entire party worked around the TR, to address the role and vulnerabilities of the TR this would not be as bad of an issue (still even at the back of many of these mobs they have such a wide arc in their attacks that they still hit you with their swings and can still take a PvE TR down to near death in one hit), but that is not going to happen as it is quicker and more efficient to use any other striker in the game (including the DPS DC now).
Now I know these sound like "worst case" scenarios, and that could well be -- but you should realize that these "worst cases" happen almost all the time. It is yet early into the testing and so I am going by what I have seen so far and hopefully I will not come off too critical in my "cherry picking" (but **** all I see are cherry tree's).
shadow of demise procs from every damage source]
feedback
Classes that dodge need to be able to defend themselves against shocking execution
trickster rogues have unlimited dodge in stealth
Why the stealth depletion is a must in PVE? To avoid permastealth in PVE? C'mon...
Why noticed bugs won't be fixed, like CHA CA, for example?...Shocking Execution ridiculous dmg...And so on...
Why do we need all those changes that are going to come? Why?
We only need our dmg up with the same sinergy of powers and feats and, please, FIX all powers and feats that are bugged and don't work as is supouse to do.
Please, don't go ahead with this madness. Really, please.
I have to agree with this.
As a DC, I have found Perma-Stealth to be a ludicrous and unfair perversion of AD&D.
But, as a WK and an MI, I was saving Glory and Seals to get the Profound Scoundrel to try and get to a Perma State before it gets nerfed. Semi-Perma has been a lot of fun.
But 15% Stealth Drain is too much if it is per hit. Per full animation of multiple attacks, maybe. Or, after the first full animation at -15%, THEN 15% drain per At-Will hit. TRs will then have to be more clever to keep Stealth up, or come out of it.
Having said that, my MI on the test server still has two of her Paragon Feats speced, and Sneaky Stabber still gives +10% Stealth refill per hit to Gloaming Cut. Granted, that is not a good At Will to use in PvP, but against practice dummies without adding any more Feats, she can stay invisible indefinitely with GC, Bait and Switch, Shadow Strike and any Daily - Blood Bath is a good one. Not that she actually needs to use a Daily at all to keep her Stealth up
Also, for both TR and DC, everyone should get a Full Re-spec Token, because these are such radical overhauls, people may very well need to redo some Powers and quite probably their attribute score distribution - such as those with maxed INT and CHA putting points into STR and DEX instead. And certainly for changing Paragon if the build no longer works. The attribute scores on level up were distributed due to the previous mechanics, and if these are all changing, we may need to go for a completely different kind of build. We cannot do that with the same Paragon, Scores and Powers, and certainly not if we still have 5 Ranks in Tier 2 Feats floating in mid-air.
So, if they want to erase permastealth from the map... fail
It's crazy...
I`m not sure why but it fill around 75% of stealth meter.
In game tooltip says 25%, here is mentioned 50%
Might be connected to total stealth, if i have 150% it fills 75%. Shouldn`t work that way
Feedback: Return to shadows
50% and more feel like too much, should be 20-25%
how about one of these feats; Cunning Stalker - Action Rush - Sneak of Shadows
also please replace Flashing Blades & Arterial Cut with Mocking Knave & Brutal Backstab.
I HATE IT – and to say it because nobody else will - depletion of stealth from using at wills is trash, it does not work and will lose you your TR customer base. Let’s have SW lose15% mobility for every at will, CW lose an encounter for every at will, GF lose 15% block for an at will, and so on.
The TR class and everything they do involves stealth – pretty much all of the benefits to damage from your changes come from, you guessed it stealth.
For example – you state
“Before we talk about the other changes, let’s talk about the big one. Perma-stealth is going to get much harder to play”
Actually pick the right tree and paragon path and it’s easier to perma now – you can now have 3 encounters that refill stealth, and more feats that part refill stealth - so what you really mean is ranged PVP perma is now going to be harder to play. Or to put is another way WK is going to be harder to play – so just get rid of the paragon path if you hate it that much. And to prove that point – is it not the Whisperknife Disheartening Strike the only at will / encounter to take damage reduction – and the only damage that now takes longer to apply.
With these changes you have destroyed the WK paragon path completely, but then it’s obvious from the changes that this was your intention, all of these changes are PVP orientated when the game is mostly PVE – so why not simply bar TR’s (or what seems more apt from your intention the WK) from PVP and leave them alone? 90% plus of the TR population would not care if you barred them from PVP – but go ahead and listen to the PVP population that pen to the forums everyday while waiting in Q’s for their next game, while the rest of the people are actually playing the game.
Read the comments already posted – apart from PVP comments about how great it will be to one shot people, and how great it is to do one shot massive damage against target dummy, everyone hates these changes.
Myself and my TR online friends have already decided to stop playing this class at least – since with these changes there is no point. Any effort and time put into building a character is wasted – I doubt you will read this, and I doubt you will listen if you do – and I am sorry for penning such a negative feedback about what obviously took a lot of effort and work upon your part to construct – but to use your own words – TR’s ands DC’s were going to receive some love, with the depletion of stealth from using at wills, this is not love. If you seriously want to remove perma from the game, just lose one of the encounters that refills stealth – job done.
With reference to the above post, this can work solo if you use a tank pet but it's certainly not reliable.
Would it be too much if this was triggered off combat advantage?
Just to reiterate "Keep the stealth drain in PVP. But get rid of it in PVE". Brilliant suggestion and would be behind it 110%. I might also add change or reduce First strike for PVP only as well. These two things would be a great first step in solving many of the issues people are having with TR on Preview in PVP and PVE right now. Maybe we should start a Poll lol.
Most of the proposed changes come from feats. I'm guessing this is because feats are easier to modify than say for example powers. Executioner didn't really need a feat rework, Sabotuer and scoundrel probably did, especially capstone, scoundrel still does.
Rogue really needed a extensive rework of stealth and encounters, and possibly dailies. I don't think we are going to get that.
Make the dodge a bit shorter and give us a tqhird dodge. Increase our move speed a bit.
The new first strike is ridiculous and it's only good for one shooting people in PvP. I don't find it very practical in pve.
I find my damage pretty much the same as before, with my crit rate going down considerably. I don't feel that Lashing Blade has 50% more crit severity. I used to do around 20k damage from stealth, and that's what I'm doing now. Is it working as it should? Make Dazing Strirtke hit 5 targets.
I know I'm rambling, and I apologize, but is this really what we get after waiting for so long?
we don't even need to have stealth drain in pvp. just make it so ONLY cloud of steel drains stealth and perma-pvp will break because you can be seen and hit when close up.
WTB Improved Evasion, no damage on reflex save and 1/2 damage on failed save. Either that or ITC to give 75% AoE Resist even when not stealthed.
Having read a number of comments regarding survivability I wonder, is it time to rework Stealth so that it is independent of incoming damage? Similar to the GF block rework.
Obviously at least Tenacious Concealment would need to be reworked as well.
Yes this right here. MANY problems would be fixed right there. And THEN you can put cloud of steel back to 12 charges. ( as we all know thats the reason they were nerfed to 8 in the first place)
Sorry my friend but I don't think you've fully thought through the implications of this with the new feats.
While stealthed and specced for PVP, base damage on my lashing blade is a little over 7k, GC is around 3.5k, flurry from tooltip is 1.5k. Flurry from tool tip is 1.5k but the actual base damage from JUST the flurry phase is 12k. Yes, that's right, Base damage of just the flurry phase from flurry is MUCH higher than lashing blade. On live this isn't as noticeble, because flurry doesn't auto-crit, lashing does. But if both auto-crit then flurry would do more damage(including the bleeds) than lashing blade would, even with the +50% severity to lashing on preview.
Now in PVP, add either shadow of demise or shadowy opportunity to that and it's too much. As much as I love Flurry in PVP, I have to be honest and say that it would be too much, for PVP, for PVE it would be about right.
On the other hand 15% stealth drain is also way too much. Even at 5% stealth drain 1 flurry is going to eat your entire stealth. If your have max stealth, which is around 9 seconds. Flurry takes about 4 seconds to perform + 60% stealth drain and your entire stealth is gone. If, however under these conditions Flurry is doing all that extra damage, then it's pretty fair. 5% would still be too much for PVE however.
Right now, scoundrel is only viable as part of a hybrid
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
IF you are going to change it please
1: Make stealth Out of Combat full time
2: IF the change is going to go ahead When pressed 5% per tick not 15%
The TR is NOT a "stealth class".
It's a class that makes use of stealth as one of its many arsenals. There's a difference. In that sense, the current changes are a step in the right direction. Currently in live, TRs are like stealth junkies. They need to take stealth as often as possible, otherwise they get the shakes, they can't do anything. The total stealth dependancy is ultimately our downfall.
Stealth has been adequately reduced and suppressed, so that now it offers an opportunity to either land a few free-shots in and/or reposition oneself tactically. In other words, you can't do the "neener neener I can attack you indefinately, but you can never see me" any more.
The problem we face is this: at this moment which the TR has finally stepped out of its total stealth dependancy, it now faces the dangers of both PvP and PvE in a raw, naked state. Stealth is no longer a total offense-defense combined into one. It is limited to short bursts.
That means in most of the cases the TR now has to face enemies while in plain sight.
Can we do that? No. We can't.
The base performance of the TR -- particularly defense, is still much too weak. This is the main problem we face.
As I've mentioned before in a feedback, many changes have been provided in terms of increase in DPS, but no changes AT ALL towards defense.
It is plenty understandable why the PvE populace are so angry. Up to date, they've been relying on the very simple mechanics of; (1) stay in stealth (2) spam at-wills (3) mob dead. Now that's gone. Encounters themselves often do not cut it when there are multiple enemy mobs -- strong ones -- incoming. You can't spam attacks from stealth now, so in most cases you also need to face them with your bare, naked, visible <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>... and you can't do that.
Asking to go back is not going to happen. The developers clearly did not come all this way so we can whine our arses off to go back in time. The best thing we can do is accept the reality, and come up with ideas and feedback that can make this work.
And it is my belief, that the first thing we need, is beefing up the basic spec/parameters/capabilities of the TR as a fighting individual.
Need to be stronger, faster, evade more quickly, slip away from attacks, and retaliate with ease. That's what we need -- not the WAAAAAAH Gimme my stealth back" tantrum <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I, totally agree. As a purely PvE TR I don't use stealth much, only to re-position, score a crit with LB or use ITC. However, having no problem with stealth drain, I do see a problem with the change to ITC and no changes at all to our mobility and poor dodges. We absolutely need more speed and better dodges as a defense mechanism. The current two rolls are too long and always leave you too far from your target (unless you're a WK). How about making three shorter dodges? Also the delay at the end of the dodge roll needs to go away. We absolutely need to be faster and more difficult to target - after all we should be the acrobats among classes.
Some of the encounters need to be tweaked to be in use with the main mechanics of Saboteuer more adequately, the prime example being PotB. Now, PotB is beginning to show more and more problems as it is essentially a living, breathing case of the "passive, auto-attack" powers that most people feel needs to be addressed.
It is obvious that when the capstone feat, [One with the Shadows] was envisioned and designed, the developers never took into consideration the existence of encounters with persistent effects. What happens is when PotB is engaged with OWTS, the power kicks into action at its double-speed, stealth version, but your stealth is refilled and remains constant. Since encounters don't drain stealth meter, unlike at-wills, the PotB hits at double speed -- twice per second -- with:
(a) 15~20% damage buff from Combat Advantage
(b) max 25% and slowl diminishing damage buff from Ambusher's Haste
(c) 75% of your weapon damage with each hit (375 for most people) that is piercing damage from Shadowy Opportunity
(d) all the rest miniscule 5% damage buffs in place
(e) 100% critical due to stealth
...you do the math on what this does to people. You don't even need to do anything. Just engage it from stealth and walk around for 10 seconds and your target is just shredded to bits.
Obviously, there are more overlooks and big and small design flaws the developers need to weed out. In case of PotB, my opinion is the whole power itself is a design flaw in the first place, and should be changed to reward active, aggressive combat action, and discourage the current passive, automatic nature of the power.
My suggestion with PotB is constant -- either change it into a more "active" version, or respect the D&D 4th lore.
■ "Active" version: change it into a time-limited attack option which works exactly like Piercing Blades -- additional attack damage with every melee attack you make. This requires you to actively seek out and attack enemies for the effect to take place, instead of the current dumbshi* "I walk around and my opponent just keels over" or "dance around all stealth nearby you is peeled" pile of cheesy crapheap.
■ "Lore" version: activating power gives you "aiming queue" like IBS or Seismic Shot. Aim and fire, and the TR charges along the aimed path, and stabs and stuns all enemies caught in its path, the TR being IMMUNE to damage and CC while on the move. This version more closely matches what it is like in actual D&D4th.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I would suggest critical strike happens not when you are in stealth.. but whenever you have combat advantage.
This is more in line with how tr should work
You mean "from rear-side", right?
That's actually a pretty neat idea.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Have you tried dodging towards (into) the enemy, instead of away from it? Dodging in the red counts as a dodge also... you take no damage, and are right where you're supposed to be for your next hits... requires a bit of timing, which is different for some AoEs, but so far managed it wherever I tried it. (just noticed this a few weeks ago, myself)
Unless the red area is followed by a DoT effect, such as the poison cloud from Charthraxis. In that case dodge the hell away, lol :P
FALSE! POTB does NOT proc piercing damage or any feats at all.
Does not proc piercing 9shadowy opportunity)
Does not proc return to shadows/one with the shadow
does not proc the +25% bonus damage feat while in stealth.
does not proc weapon enchants.
nothing.
Shadow strike instead procs one with the shadows....and this is sad.
A refilling encounter should not trigger a refilling feat with 20 sec internal CD
I tested that paragon for the first time since module 2 and it's pure <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Vengeace's pursuit's mark needs to last either 30 seconds or forever.
This one's a very direct and easy-to-understand feedback/suggestion. Why does our CoS has only 8 charges, reduced from what formerly used to be 12?
Because before, the long and repeating stealth made it possible for people to spam CoS in stealth, which hit longer and harder for 12 streaks. Now, this is no longer the concern since the system does not allow you to spam long streaks of CoS from stealth. The stealth itself being limited, you find yourself more and more having to fight without any stealth.
The problem is, Whisperknives are basically specialized (at least, by the looks of Paragon powers and features) for ranged knife-throwing type of combat:
paragon encounter is a ranged power
paragon at-will is a ranged power
the first paragon class feature increases ranged attack damage
the second paragon class feature flings knives while doing a daily
the third and final paragon class feature gives you (shi**y amounts, but still) ranged damage resistance
WKs are usually limited to longer fighting ranges due to lack of ITC, with the CoS/DHS setups becoming more and more preferred over the last few months since the disclosure of variety of WK-perma tactics coming from wonderful players. For WKs, encounters are limited in use through generally long cooldowns, and the 1 melee + 1 ranged at-will set-up is usually better optimized for Master Infiltrators, as their ITC offers opportunities to mix in close-ranged fights despite CCs and heavy attacks flying around everywhere
...and in this kind of environment, more and more WKs including myself are finding that 8 knives just isn't enough to fight ranged. After a few throws, your 8 charges are gone, and while powerful the DHS still ticks only once per second at a steady rate. Compared to that, the MIs have the exact same number of CoS charges, and wield a far more powerful weapon that has been recently buffed to extreme usefulness (Gloaming Cut).
Suggestion
Whisperknives are still considered to be vastly underpowered compared to MIs. OK, fine. We're never gonna get a utility as powerful as ITC unless we get ITC ourselves. Then so be it. Then let the Whisperknives do something that the MIs can never do -- throw knives like crazy, which hurts like hell.
■ Dagger Threat: let this underperforming class feature be something useful for WKs
effect distance increased to 30' (up from 20')
increase damage of projectile attacks by 10/20/30% (up from 5/10/15%)
increase the charges of CoS by 2/4/6 (so the charges are up to 10/12/14 shots)
if increasing the number of charges cannot be done, then alternately decrease the regen time of CoS charges by 1.0/1.5/2.0 seconds
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I don't see any problems with that one, but the real problem is OWTS proccing when you're already full stealth meter. This makes it counter intuitive especially with certain ranged encounters that is sometimes fired off at the beginning of the fight (like VP or IS for example).
IMO OWTS should be consumed only when the stealth meter is not full.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'