blazious11Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 331Arc User
edited October 2014
Nice changes at last!
Dodge change is very good, but we would need smaller dodges, like HR, about 3/4 of the old value, not bigger (as if I understand correctly, the 50% farther makes its bigger. Also it makes some more locations accessible, possibly making some new cheese content). Bigger dodge makes the class less mobile, because if I dodge away, I will be very far from the target (dragon for example) and I would need to cover a larger distance on foot, to get back in fight, even if I try to dodge towards the dragon.
Now it feels like a gap closer in pvp, rather than a safekeeping utility.
One more thing would be very welcome: some movement speed. Make DEXterity to increase movement speed by 1%. That would make the class more mobile, and would compensate the crit chance changes with stealth.
Also at-wills should drain stealth at a slower rate, at least to finish one DF in stealth. As it stands now, GC is a bit OP at-will in the look of others. (Rate could be 15% in pvp. Make it different for pve-pvp like frontline surge prone/stun, if that's possible)
Sly Flourish also need some more utility, like a cleaving effect, to make it a bit of AOE.
Dazing Strike change is great, and I can see the logic in the PotB change too, need some testing though, but I like it on paper.
All in all, I think the last change was made in a very good direction, thanks for that.
My story is truly a grand tale! Of course, any story about me is going to be grand simply by virtue of the main character.
Final big change we wanted to touch on is a hefty change to Path of the Blade. We generally like the idea behind this power, sacrificing burst for some sustained DPS that hits random targets, but it was never really designed to be a huge single target DPS increase. Therefore we are spreading its damage out to more targets but making it less potent on a single target.
I'm confused... how is this an improvement?
It feels like a nerf to me... you deliver the exact same damage if facing 3 targets as current vs 1, but if you face 1 target you are taking a 66% damage nerf....
I don't understand how dividing the same damage among 3 foes instead of 1 is better than delivering it all to one... its the same damage output... If I'm missing something, please enlighten me...
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
Based on the version currently on preview, Gloaming Cut is extremely powerful and as a result gives players even less incentive to play Whisperknife.
It would therefore be a welcome change to make Disheartening Strike tick faster (mobs don't normally live very long in PvE for the full 15 seconds to tick through) and also to make Sly Flourish more useful.
Sly Flourish on Preview compared with Duelist's Flurry and Gloaming Cut fares the worst pretty much regardless of which paragon and feats you pick. You would indeed be better off going with Cloud of Steel and either DF/GC/DH rather Sly Flourish.
Nice changes at least!
Dodge change is very good, but we would need smaller dodges, like HR, about 3/4 of the old value, not bigger (as if I understand correctly, the 50% farther makes its bigger. Also it makes some more locations accessible, possibly making some new cheese content). Bigger dodge makes the class less mobile, because if I dodge away, I will be very far from the target (dragon for example) and I would need to cover a larger distance on foot, to get back in fight, even if I try to dodge towards the dragon.
Now it feels like a gap closer in pvp, rather than a safekeeping utility.
One more thing would be very welcome: some movement speed. Make DEXterity to increase movement speed by 1%. That would make the class more mobile, and would compensate the crit chance changes with stealth.
As it stands now, GC is a bit OP at-will in the look of others. (Rate could be 15% in pvp. Make it different for pve-pvp like frontline surge prone/stun, if that's possible)
Sly Flourish also need some more utility, like a cleaving effect, to make it a bit of AOE.
Dazing Strike change is great, and I can see the logic in the PotB change too, need some testing though, but I like it on paper.
All in all, I think the last change was made in a very good direction, thanks for that.
Agree with theese, especialy about the move speed. My DC run faster than my TR.
Also Gloaming Cut too strong in stealth, hit harder than most of our encounter.
First up, Dodging. Dodging is awesome, and should feel good. Period. Full Stop. Therefore, in line with the goal of trying to make rogues feel more slippery and mobile on the battlefield (and compensate for their weaker defenses when their tools are down) we are making a big change to their dodges.
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%).
Hey GMC,
I'm part of the camp that thought the current dodge was too long - as an MI, it took me completely out of combat when I just wanted to get on the other side of my enemy. The efficiency is great, I've been hoping for a decrease in stamina cost, but the extended range of dodge only helps WKs. It will now be completely too far and will require a gap closer or another dodge to get back into the fight. Is there any way I could get you to reconsider?
Hey GMC,
I'm part of the camp that thought the current dodge was too long
Same here. Don't know exactly how a 50% longer dodge will affect me, but it certainly sounds like it would create more problems than it would solve. But I'll give it an honest chance and come back with better feedback once I feel I've gotten a handle on it. Or perhaps much more knowledgeable Rogues can provide their input, since I'm still somewhat knew to TR.
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%).
On the one hand, I want to applaud devs for reviewing all the feedback on this thread and making some real changes. I hope we're not done yet. That said, I have my two bits I would like to add (and I am strictly a PVE player):
Literally no one on this entire thread asked for longer dodges. Yes, this will provide a much-needed breather no longer afforded us due to shorter stealth, but it will also take our slow melee-only class out of the fight. I like the shorter hit on stamina, but I would have liked shorter dodges more than longer dodges (or maybe even faster dodges?). I think this could be offset by making what should be the fastest class in the game faster. Dex adding bonuses to movement would be a nice start. Or more movement bonuses from armor sets. Something to make Rogues quicker
Next up: Artifact Weapons. With DF fully nerfed (who wants to be stuck in that animation AND visible to enemies??), that leaves us with CoS and SF as our only two AW options, neither of which are improved in this Mod. So....A GC artifact? Or something?!?? It is especially disheartening to those of us who spent time (and AD) on leveling up our DF artifact weapon.
I really like some changes for the TR. Most of the Feats seems good, nothing like the old one (i mean,... come on +1% Action Points Gain if i kill an enemy... this was no real feat) but some changes seem odd to me.
I mean, one of the best Feats was +1/2/3/5% critical for me AND my teammates. I had several Team members that appreciate to have an TR in the group because they did more damage because of 5% more critical strike.
An additional problem is the stealth degeneration and 15% penalty while i attack out of stealth. In PvE the TR is for me a sneaky *******. Get close to a Monster, go in stealth, start duelist flurry with combat advantage which means 15% more damage (+x% more damage if i skilled the feats proper) and go out of stealth with a wicked reminder to debuff the monster.
Now i lose my strongest weapon, The Stealth. I mean, it sounds cool to get an additional 100% critical strike chance but it's odd that i can't use it. Please take the 100% critical strike and give me back my proper stealth. Give me more Items and Feats that give me more combat advantage bonus. And please Fix Charisma.
I mean. I have an 18.000 Gearscore Half Orc Trickster Rogue. I play since open Beta. I make really good damage because i set combat advantage as a primary stat for me, which is hard because there are only 3 Artifacts that give me a bonus on it and only 1 boon. Okay at the end it is only +8,8% but if i had more points or a feat to spend some points in it (or would charisma not buggy ) i would do a lot more damage in combat advantage. I am similar geared as my GWF Guildmates and while they do like 10 million damage i am at 7 or 8 millionen. Hell! Sometimes if they have a bad day i beat them!
This means the TR need in PvE only a small push in the right direction and all will be fine. But now, you nerf stealth and i have the feeling the TR will only be a another big offensive melee fighter like the GWF in PvE and not the cool executioner that appears out of stealth it is now.
Please let stealth like it is. Fix Charisma and give us 1 or 2 feats for more damage in combat advantage. I know that it is important to keep the balance in PvP but i think the problem is the lack of an proper counter to an perma stealth rogue. I think you could make it easy for everyone if you give them one item for a potion slot that gives a small buff for 1 minute that allows the character to see invisible things.
Something like... The Stone Of True Sight: Grants the user with the vision to raise the veil and see the person that hides in it (most likely Trickster Rogues) for 1 minute. In addition the user get +100 recovery and tenacity while the vision is active. Can be used every 3 minutes.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
All testing done in IWD with the Hybrid Sco/Exe build mentioned a few hundred posts ago using Dazing Strike, WR, and ITC
Dazing Strike:Dazing Strike hit no faster than before and did not appear to hit targets in a cone.
Dodge:Dodge changes yet to appear. Still using 50% of stamina per roll with no difference in dodge distance. Shorter dodge times/animations would also be welcome.
Concussive Strike/Skullcracker:Changes present and noticeable, thank you. I was able to string Skullcracker with Stealth, WK, WK x3, <gap>, Dazing Strike in an almost indefinite manner, the exception being against giants and other control immune mobs (who were the only ones to successfully kill me)
First StrikeI noticed no real difference, but I also wasn't running LB damage tests
Thank you for listening to our feedback and requests thus far.
Post Script:
Two suggestions:
For the dodge distance issue: Change one of the WK paragon Class Features to increase dodge distance overall. I know many WKs are complaining they don't have a good paragon passive. This would allow you to shorten the dodge distance overall, but still cater to the ranged TR players.
For the stealth "issue" I have no problem with at-wills reducing stealth. Perhaps it could be by 10% instead of 15%. Additionally, I think it would be prudent to allow incoming damage to merely stop stealth regen, not reverse it.
Regarding Charisma, my testing shows it was fixed quite a while ago (I was seeing the correct bonuses for it). Please double check that it is actually not working because I cannot replicate it.
I should have mentioned that those changes will be in the next build. They are *NOT* on preview yet.
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chestnut13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 176Arc User
Nice changes at last!
Dodge change is very good, but we would need smaller dodges, like HR, about 3/4 of the old value, not bigger (as if I understand correctly, the 50% farther makes its bigger. Also it makes some more locations accessible, possibly making some new cheese content). Bigger dodge makes the class less mobile, because if I dodge away, I will be very far from the target (dragon for example) and I would need to cover a larger distance on foot, to get back in fight, even if I try to dodge towards the dragon.
Dodge change is just what the doctor ordered. However, there will be a disagreement based on spec ... I don't agree with the above. As a WK, I would greatly appreciate an increased dodge distance!
In order to make this more productive, and easier to read, I would suggest quick lists of your feedback and suggestions. They made changes based on feedback, but some of it really isn't what anyone suggested or wanted (longer dodges really?). Make it easy for them:
Feedback/Suggestions
- Not a fan of a longer distance dodge
I would prefer shorter distance, but more frequency,
- Gloaming Cut does better single target damage in a sustained duration than Duelist Furry.
Make Duelist Furry (and all those of us that upgraded our Artifacts) a usable at-will. Increase the damage, or give us a higher deflect from the start of using it. Since we can't use it in stealth, it has become useless.
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chestnut13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 176Arc User
Based on the version currently on preview, Gloaming Cut is extremely powerful and as a result gives players even less incentive to play Whisperknife.
It would therefore be a welcome change to make Disheartening Strike tick faster (mobs don't normally live very long in PvE for the full 15 seconds to tick through) and also to make Sly Flourish more useful.
That At Will could certainly use some love.
Agreed. WK can, and should, be a great path that is worthwhile to play. It needs something that's the bomb for it alone ... and that's DiS. It should hit hard and be the power a WK builds around.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
================================== New updates from GMC ==========================
Feedback: dodge distance for TR increased by 50% I am worried about this distance increase for several reasons.
1) dodge as it is in mod 4 is far enough to almost make me fall off platforms when doing certain boss battles, an increase in dodge distance will throw me to my death.
2) We can try to roll into our enemy to prevent rolling away and falling to our deaths, but what if the enemy moves?
3) perhaps you can give whisperknife a feat that increases dodge range?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Afternoon all! We have a lot of bug fixes and performance changes to address much of the feedback in this thread, but I want to touch on a few of the following changes in more detail.
First up, Dodging. Dodging is awesome, and should feel good. Period. Full Stop. Therefore, in line with the goal of trying to make rogues feel more slippery and mobile on the battlefield (and compensate for their weaker defenses when their tools are down) we are making a big change to their dodges.
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%).
We feel this provides a lot more defensive options to a rogue and lets them reset the fight (or move rapidly out of range if they need to), and take better control of their positioning.
Next up is Dazing Strike. This skill is problematic because it is so hard to land against quickly moving foes or targets not focused on you. Add to that the fact that Rogue AoE doesn't have a lot of strong options in the kit and this felt like a good place to make some interesting changes.
Trickster Rogue: Dazing Strike: Now always activates at the same speed as stealth and should hit targets far more consistently.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Dazing Strike: Now strikes in a large cone in front of you.
This will make Dazing Strike just feel faster and more consistent, and also adds a solid AoE CC to rogues.
Final big change we wanted to touch on is a hefty change to Path of the Blade. We generally like the idea behind this power, sacrificing burst for some sustained DPS that hits random targets, but it was never really designed to be a huge single target DPS increase. Therefore we are spreading its damage out to more targets but making it less potent on a single target.
Trickster Rogue: Path of the Blade: Now hits 3 targets each tick (up from 1) and deals roughly 33% of its original damage.
This provides Rogues another good AoE option.
In addition to these major changes, we have lots of bugfixes and performance increases for things that were underperforming. Full notes below and in the OP.
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%).
Trickster Rogue: First Strike: Now provides 30% bonus damage at rank 1 (down from 33%) and provides an additional 15% when ranking it up (down from 33%).
Trickster Rogue: Dazing Strike: Now always activates at the same speed as stealth and should hit targets far more consistently.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Dazing Strike: Now strikes in a large cone in front of you.
Trickster Rogue: Path of the Blade: Now hits 3 targets each tick (up from 1) and deals roughly 33% of its original damage.
Trickster Rogue: Deft Strike: Now slows targets for 80% (up from 60%) for 5 seconds (up from 3 seconds).
Trickster Rogue: Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks to 3 (instead of 5).
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: This power has now been correctly reduced by 10% instead of 60%.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: The first portion of this power can now be activated while moving. The followup portion of this power now activates substantially faster.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Cooldown reduced to 12 seconds (down from 16).
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Razor Action: Damage increased by a further 200%.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Advantageous Position: Now provides 20% resistance (up from 10%) and now lasts for 2 seconds per rank (up from 1).
Trickster Rogue: Sabotuer: Shady Preparations: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
Trickster Rogue: Saboteur: Knife's Edge: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
Trickster Rogue: Saboteur: One with the Shadows: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Concussive Strikes: Now dazes the target for .5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds (up from .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second)
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Base daze increased to 4 seconds (up from 2 seconds). Total maximum increased to 6 seconds (up from 4 seconds).
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Now also grants 25% increased move speed.
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
Trickster Rogue: Executioner: Shadow of Demise: Shadow of Demise can no longer activate itself and can only be applied to a single target.
Trickster Rogue: Executioner: Shadow of Demise: Now correctly only triggers on Encounter Powers.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
PS: Please keep the conversation civil. This thread is for feedback only, and if you would like to discuss the changes outside that feedback take it to another thread.
EDIT: These changes will be hitting preview sometime this week, but are not yet up for testing.
Awesome changes. But Vengeance's pursuit needs some more tweaking (yes, really)
1) The cooldown is still too long, give it 3 charges or reduce it to either 0 (Like before) or 4 seconds like the old wicked reminder
2) I noticed the mark duration of VP was reduced to 8 seconds. This mark either needs to last a good 20-30 seconds or forever. Sometimes you re-apply the mark too late and get CCed afterwards.
BUG: Vengneace's Pursuit does NOT break from CW's Icy Rays
More feedback:
Master Infiltrator has a HUGE advantage over WhisperKnife at the moment, and that is Gloaming Cut which does not drain stealth.
Please make Disheartening Strike not drain 15% of our stealth meter just like GC. That way the two paragon at-wills can be even. Thanks
Deft Strike: Good utility buff but the cooldown is long as well, needs to be reduced.
Afternoon all! We have a lot of bug fixes and performance changes to address much of the feedback in this thread, but I want to touch on a few of the following changes in more detail.
First up, Dodging. Dodging is awesome, and should feel good. Period. Full Stop. Therefore, in line with the goal of trying to make rogues feel more slippery and mobile on the battlefield (and compensate for their weaker defenses when their tools are down) we are making a big change to their dodges.
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%).
We feel this provides a lot more defensive options to a rogue and lets them reset the fight (or move rapidly out of range if they need to), and take better control of their positioning.
Next up is Dazing Strike. This skill is problematic because it is so hard to land against quickly moving foes or targets not focused on you. Add to that the fact that Rogue AoE doesn't have a lot of strong options in the kit and this felt like a good place to make some interesting changes.
Trickster Rogue: Dazing Strike: Now always activates at the same speed as stealth and should hit targets far more consistently.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Dazing Strike: Now strikes in a large cone in front of you.
This will make Dazing Strike just feel faster and more consistent, and also adds a solid AoE CC to rogues.
Final big change we wanted to touch on is a hefty change to Path of the Blade. We generally like the idea behind this power, sacrificing burst for some sustained DPS that hits random targets, but it was never really designed to be a huge single target DPS increase. Therefore we are spreading its damage out to more targets but making it less potent on a single target.
Trickster Rogue: Path of the Blade: Now hits 3 targets each tick (up from 1) and deals roughly 33% of its original damage.
This provides Rogues another good AoE option.
In addition to these major changes, we have lots of bugfixes and performance increases for things that were underperforming. Full notes below and in the OP.
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%).
Trickster Rogue: First Strike: Now provides 30% bonus damage at rank 1 (down from 33%) and provides an additional 15% when ranking it up (down from 33%).
Trickster Rogue: Dazing Strike: Now always activates at the same speed as stealth and should hit targets far more consistently.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Dazing Strike: Now strikes in a large cone in front of you.
Trickster Rogue: Path of the Blade: Now hits 3 targets each tick (up from 1) and deals roughly 33% of its original damage.
Trickster Rogue: Deft Strike: Now slows targets for 80% (up from 60%) for 5 seconds (up from 3 seconds).
Trickster Rogue: Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks to 3 (instead of 5).
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: This power has now been correctly reduced by 10% instead of 60%.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: The first portion of this power can now be activated while moving. The followup portion of this power now activates substantially faster.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Cooldown reduced to 12 seconds (down from 16).
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Razor Action: Damage increased by a further 200%.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Advantageous Position: Now provides 20% resistance (up from 10%) and now lasts for 2 seconds per rank (up from 1).
Trickster Rogue: Sabotuer: Shady Preparations: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
Trickster Rogue: Saboteur: Knife's Edge: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
Trickster Rogue: Saboteur: One with the Shadows: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Concussive Strikes: Now dazes the target for .5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds (up from .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second)
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Base daze increased to 4 seconds (up from 2 seconds). Total maximum increased to 6 seconds (up from 4 seconds).
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Now also grants 25% increased move speed.
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
Trickster Rogue: Executioner: Shadow of Demise: Shadow of Demise can no longer activate itself and can only be applied to a single target.
Trickster Rogue: Executioner: Shadow of Demise: Now correctly only triggers on Encounter Powers.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
PS: Please keep the conversation civil. This thread is for feedback only, and if you would like to discuss the changes outside that feedback take it to another thread.
EDIT: These changes will be hitting preview sometime this week, but are not yet up for testing.
This is just awesome, gc. Looking forward to testing it!
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Stealth: at-wills should drain stealth at a slower rate for pve about 5% and 10% for pvp as it is now Stealth drains before
one DF can finish.
Stealth: should refill at a slow rate when taking damage. ( found it hard to get stealth back in IWD when not slotting for it. )
feels like most TR's will just take out DF for GC would be nice to still be able to feat DF in the
Executioner tree maybe a rework of (deadly momentum).
Would like to see ( Critical Teamwork ) added back in as this was a awesome party buff, everyother player loved this feat.
I just don't want to be pigeon holed into using GC for my at-will just like we were before with DF. Would be nice to be able to pick from both. ( being able to feet both )
Most TR's have a DF Artifact weapon working there way to getting it Legendary but now with no feat for it feels like a big waste of time. Plus there is no Artifact weapon for GC.
I totally understand how hard it is to balance a Stealth class, IMO i think it would be better if powers could work different in pve/pvp
I understand trying to stop perma builds, but not at the detriment of Stealth pve TR's.
most of the new changes are awesome and i know the DEV's are working hard. Would just like them to think again about the Stealth change in pve.
Bug with Concussive Strikes: doesn't proc every 5 seconds with Disheartening strike thrown from stealth. Only dazes with the first crit
I think that's intended, fung.
I also thought that it'd be cool if CS procs with DoTs.. but that would sort of make DHS like a slightly toned-down version of the old Constricting Arrow. 15s duration, a total of 3 dazes every 5 seconds... I think that'd raise a few eyebrows.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Feedback: Disheartening Strike:Small idea about Dish. Strike. Lose the Bleed mechanic, make Disheartening Strike a one-time-big-time ranged burst. Give it a charge-up mechanic so it would be more powerful the longer the mouse button is pressed. If that's not enough, perhaps adding a mechanic where it would gain extra damage the farther you are from an enemy would further give flavor to this At-Will.
A ranged burst is something WK's COULD excel it if it had such a mechanic, and it will not be terribly overpowered in Stealth since At-Wills drain Stealth. So WK's would use Stealth to set up their Dish Strike bursts, and this would heavily synergize with Dagger Threat.
Feedback: Gloaming Cut: I absolutely LOVE the buffs to Gloaming Cut. It's a high risk, high reward At-Will at its current state in preview. In live, it's a high risk, medium reward sort of At-Will. But the buffs to Gloaming Cut puts it on par with Duelist's Flurry. Even though it doesn't have that 2 second CC immunity frame, the damage increase as the target's HP goes down makes up for the loss in utility. I approve of this wholeheartedly as one avid user of Gloaming Cut, even when everyone else told me otherwise.
Feedback: Impossible to Catch: It's sad to hear that our 5 seconds of immunity when used from Stealth is gone. Back when I was still able to enter dungeons with my now-dead former guild, it was useful in boss fights where we could increase our uptime against the boss, Flurry-ing them as often as possible and keeping the Bleeds up. But with the new meta in boss fights, where one mistake can take you out of combat completely, losing the immunity mechanic may hurt our survival capabilities. This is speaking strictly from a PVE point of view. If we are to factor PVP with the new change, it makes a lot of sense. 5 seconds of complete and total immunity is a scary power to wield in PVP. Considering how we could have it up so often.
All I ask, however, is to give us some sort of utility mechanic in place of the loss of immunity. Since the skill is called "Impossible to Catch", why not give us some sort of mechanic that would make us truly impossible to catch. Such as "When used, you deflect all attacks for 5 seconds and run 50% faster. When used from Stealth, you gain 50% increased damage reduction as well as double the run speed." It would be an excellent tool for chasing a running opponent or to escape a deadly red zone or combat area. It won't be terribly overpowered as this is merely a utility buff, and this will also give rogues the mobility they need when they truly need it. It's not a bad compromise, considering the loss in Immunity and given this skill's cooldown.
Feedback: Vengeance's Pursuit: Tried and tested in preview, doesn't seem like the changes are that noticeable. The power still feels awfully lackluster and clunky, and it is in DIRE need of an oomph comparable to that of ITC for the WK path to be desired. ITC is a utility power, and this gives it flexibility. What Vengeance's Pursuit lacks is utility. The damage buffs are nice but it doesn't seem like there's much use for it aside from the teleportation as well as the short CC-break mechanic which is highly situational. You need to have done the initial throw before you are able to break out of CC, and this is where the problem lies. Its CC mechanic is also lackluster, very difficult to use.
Why not give it a creative yet doable charge mechanic? 3 charges, 5 seconds each charge like Wicked Reminder. The marked target becomes affected by "Pursuit." Pursuit lasts 15 seconds, and as long as someone is a target for "Pursuit," he or she will be the target for the teleportation mechanic of VP. The Whisperknife will be able to teleport to the target regardless of visibility. As long as he has been marked by the knife throw portion of the skill, the Whisperknife follows; exactly what a Whisperknife should do. Just an idea, though...
Feedback: Deft Strike, Dazing Strike: The changes are very simple, but I can see this power becoming a go-to encounter for Scoundrels. Deft Strike, Dazing Strike, Smoke Bomb. It's now VERY possible to create a CON/HP Deflect/Permalock build, which is an interesting high-risk high reward play style. I'm excited to see what the Deflect Rogues can cook up with Scoundrel, as they are the only existing build archetype at the moment who can support such a risky play style.
Feedback: First Strike: This CF is awfully scary at its current state in preview. The tweak was well-deserved as a 100% increase may prove to be too powerful. Another possible adjustment to this skill would be to make adjustments to the amount of time a player stays in combat after fleeing. The current cooldown for combat, if I remember correctly, is 8 seconds. That is long, but it wouldn't hurt to extend that to 10 seconds.
Feedback: Saboteur Changes: The changes are amazing and they FINALLY make this paragon feat tree playable. Thank you so much, devs.
Feedback: Scoundrel Changes: Same here. This feat tree was nigh horrible at first, though not as horrible as Saboteur. But the changes are very intelligent and introduces a lot of new playstyles for rogues who are looking for something more than just Stealth.
Feedback: Executioner Changes: The damage bonuses are amazing, very well thought of. However I'm just not sure about Shadow of Demise dealing un-resistable piercing damage. We all know how badly this can screw up PVP. Although it's awfully nice to have this in our kits.
Please make Disheartening Strike not drain 15% of our stealth meter just like GC. That way the two paragon at-wills can be even. Thanks
I don't think it would make it anymore useful, since you only need to throw it once and it always crits in stealth. I reckon its better if we had a feat which reduced stealth drain from CoS (only for WK). eg. CoS now drains 12/9/6/3/0% of stealth
I also thought that it'd be cool if CS procs with DoTs.. but that would sort of make DHS like a slightly toned-down version of the old Constricting Arrow. 15s duration, a total of 3 dazes every 5 seconds... I think that'd raise a few eyebrows.
Ah ****. Back to square 1 of theory crafting. Theres not much choice for WK since Sab and Exce both revolve around stealth. And stealth is one thing WK can do anymore.
If Vengeance Pursuit can teleport us behind the target, that may open up the Sab tree for us.
I think we could make some mean work out of Gutterborn's Touch if VP teleports us behind the target
I took a quick look on my TR in preview, I am liking the changes. The feats have a lot of potential to restore burst dps to the TR in pve except there's a reliance on stealth for many of them and the current mechanic doesn't facilitate the benefits of those feats.
What I would like to suggest is this: Currently using an encounter in stealth ends it immediately. I propose apart from Stealth draining normally when activated, that each encounter drains a portion of Stealth instead of terminating it.
For example, using an encounter in Stealth requires draining 25% of it. Players can then time and execute their rotations to maximize the benefit of the feats from each tree, such that there's the possibility of executing 3 encounters within one Stealth activation.
And if players feat for it, they can increase the capacity of Stealth eg. Improved Cunning Streak's 20% would increase the capacity to 120% to allow more allowance in combat maneuver to squeeze in that 3 encounters combo.
If Vengeance Pursuit can teleport us behind the target, that may open up the Sab tree for us.
I think we could make some mean work out of Gutterborn's Touch if VP teleports us behind the target
Actually, I'm currently using the following combo with Saboteuer. Works perfectly in PvE, much more difficult to pull it off in PvP.
Try this fung;
stealth
→ DHS
→ 1~2 CoS shots
→ VP(throw) from stealth, refresh stealth with OWTS
→ maneuver behind target
→ 2~3 CoS shots
→ Impact Shot from stealth from rear, stealth off
→ enemy is stunned, cannot change heading
→ immediately activate VP(teleport)
→ VP teleport activates 3 slashing attacks to backside
→ Return to Shadows x 3 times = 75% stealth filled
→ dodge away,Twilight Adept feat fills 10% more stealth
→ the time spent since VP(teleport) to dodging away fills rest 15% along the way
→ stealth meter full by the time you finish dodge, restealth
Works against all mobs except those with CC immunity or resistance. Excellent and cool way to fight with WK/Sab in PvE. In case of PvP, tenacity makes the Impact Shot stun really short, so it usually will not be a guaranteed connect. The target usually breaks out of stun and starts moving by the time your VP(teleport) lands. If he's got his backside exposed it works the same as in PvE, if not, it fails.
Ah ****. Back to square 1 of theory crafting. Theres not much choice for WK since Sab and Exce both revolve around stealth. And stealth is one thing WK can do anymore.
Make extensive use of ranged encounters with Saboteuer. IMO, at least for PvP purposes Sab is the best choice for WKs, followed by Exec. Exec has more damage, but now with Shadow of Demise bug fixed (only procs with encounters) and First Strike toned down, Sab with its overall increase in damage as well as utility/survivability has Exec beat.
Will have to see if the new Scoundrel changes my opinion of things.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Changes haven't hit preview yet so don't know where everyone else's feedback is coming from. I really love the line of thought on these. Once I have tested I will give the results. I would like to bring up that it would be nice to get a speed boost after a dodge, a way to feat for it maybe, that would really give us a slippery feel Also could be used to pursue foes sacrificing a dodge roll of course.
Finally, I am still seeing daze's in the notes. As mentioned before, a stun would be a much much better option for us do to being melee attackers and having to use most encounters on utility. Would love a stun so we could have a better chance to land our at wills. Just a thought.
Regarding Charisma, my testing shows it was fixed quite a while ago (I was seeing the correct bonuses for it). Please double check that it is actually not working because I cannot replicate it.
I should have mentioned that those changes will be in the next build. They are *NOT* on preview yet.
I will try to be as clear as possible:
My tests show that in a very long run (90 minutes hitting a dummy with a companion to trigger combat advantage) there is no difference in damage regardless the points in CHA.
What actually works fine is the combact advantage stat. To say one: the lantern artifact does indded amplify my damage of a flat 5 per cent.
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fangredwaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
edited October 2014
My background: Rogue specialist - Ranger Shaiya, Rogue Perfect World, Rogue Runscape, ranger Drakensang, and a long list of rogues in most MMOs for the last 5 years.
Class overview: Rogues are sneaky, intelligent, deal devastating damage, Deflect instead of Defense, tricksters, trappers, slippery, disguise artists, escape artists, liars, con men/women, attack speed 2 times that of fighter with damage 60% of fighter, fastest movement speed - sprinter, acrobatic & stealth play style.
Suggestions:
- NO offense meant (may be ) -
Tweaking your view point about TR - WHAT ARE YOU? ANSWER - A ROGUE:
DPS is a MUST. Tweak Attack speed and damage. No DPS = dead class. Single target damage must be implemented in a way that when TR kill one by one - they can easily match a cw who kill all at once - like TR 1,2,3 ... in 10 seconds = CW all dead in 10 seconds. Because its unfair to restrict one entire class to one by one damage dealing when other classes are not.
Attack speed and movement speed must be the highest among all classes - with attack speed 2 times that of fighter and each attack 55-60% of fighter damage with same gear.
Attacks must have interrupts to casting magic/archery
Stuns are a must
Attacking moving targets is a must - currently all u have to do is walk sideways and TR will miss hits
Highest Deflect, minimum Defense and lengthy stealth survive ability (stealth must not break if TR is not attacking) is a must
Stealth is used for surprise ambush attacks and should vanish once attack is sprung but must be unbroken 3 minute for escaping. Stealth is a defense mechanism and ambush mechanism - nothing more. DPS has to be unrelated to stealth.
Acrobatics fighting style needed - more dodges like HR
Ability to look like your opponent need "disguise" ability and the words "tricked" should not appear which is stupid really - who thought of it?. When TR initiates an attack in disguise - his disguise is blown. (same as stealth)
Trapping/bombing Mechanism advised
Escaping mechanism - stealth for 3 minutes if no attacks are made by TR - simulates the sneakiness of the class / escape artist when in danger + more dodging (LOL NOT Dodge distance - that's an idiotic idea) + highest deflect + low defense
For group - critical team work (crit chance buff) needed and must be exclusive to TR
Powers. feats are too complex for their own good and DO NOT WORK OUT AT ALL with each other and those of other classes (lololololol sorry) Makes TR alienated and high chance to get kicked from party
ITC - well every MMO has its version - 5 seconds immunity is not a big thing and is needed.
Reliance on stealth for offense other than ambush is GAME BREAKING. keep things loyal to rogue class They are ambush predators. DPS is bread and butter for this class.
INTERACTION WITH OTHER CLASSES: CREATE STANDARDS FOR ALL CLASSES especially for their interactions and overlaps or you will be lost lol
Also when pvp
-with SW - soul puppets, SW dps, SW Defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-With GWF - stuns, dps, defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with GF - unbelievable High def, knockouts, buffs creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with HR - running up the distance, unlimited HR dodges stolen from rogue class, stuns, dps, defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with DC - I am cool - they are as poor as TR
- any other class - same problems
Conclusion: With no dps or tricks - TR can't dance - AT ALL (broken sorry)
PS: STOP TAKING TIPS FROM PLAYERS WHO CREATE TR TO INVOKE AD lolololol. I doubt you will ever have a functional rogue without players who actually spend time as rogue.
after a few test on mty rogue i haven't played for a long time here some comment. I hope they're constructive enough.
Powers
• Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack Good point if you want to end with permastealth but a big loss in pve cause stealth stay the base of our survability. A 10% would be much better especially when you know how difficult it is to refill stealth while taking damages in combat.
• Stealth: Now also grants 100% Critical Chance in addition to Combat Advantage. very good point in way to make TR (at last) become the single target killer once again.
• First Strike: Damage bonus increased to 33% per rank (up from 5% per rank). Well it a good point to increase damage bonus as TR has lost most of it but still useless because it use a dot for only ONE hit in a combat that could last several minutes, and most of the time the fisrt strike in combat is an at-will which lower the interest even more. IMAO i think it would be much more interresing to lower the damage bonus (20 - 25%) and trigger it on the first power used after entering stealth.
• Whirlwind of Blades: No longer ignores Damage Resistance and Immunity and can be Deflected. Still a good daily when correctly managed TR has to be clever ^^.
• Whirlwind of Blades: Now increases your Power by 20% per target hit (up from 10%). Well done to compensate the loss of damage above.
• Lashing Blade: Stealth: Now strikes with 50% increased Critical Severity. Main source of damage a real good encounter but CD has to be be lowered. almost 18 sec it is too much For instance GWF IBS is only at 12 sec for the same amount of damages.
• Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks on players. at last
• Wicked Reminder: Maximum stacks reduced to 3. doesn't appear on preview server still stack 5 time
• Wicked Reminder: Now reduces the target's defenses by 7% per stack (up from 4%). doesn't appear on preview server still 4%
• Wicked Reminder: Now has 3 charges and 1 charge is refilled every 5 seconds. Charges are a good point makes this power almost a third at will. Due to armor loss this is a great source of damage for all group
• Wicked Reminder: Damage increased by roughly 10%. just perfect like this
And last i think there's three powers that must be redesigned:
duelist flurry: is way too long and too easily escaped.
Shocking execution: Please increase damges it's our last daily and it strike with the potency of a rooted teaspoon. I understand it has been nerfed for pvp purpose but now it is less usefull than an at-will. Seriously based damages are about 4k whereas other class could shoot at a good 10k O.o. We're a single target killers who disapear into shadow dash behind ennemy prepare a massive blow and .... no we just tickle him sorry let's try again. It's a bit frustrating^^.
dodge: lower the cost to dodge at least 4 time. I mean really we are a dodge class design to fight boss side by side with GWF and we have less chance of escaping attacks than a CW. As our armor is on best as efficient than ranger or warlock guess who died first?
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fangredwaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15Arc User
edited October 2014
Ok tested the changes in preview server
15k GS TR with greater vorpal + lvl 7 enchants
1- Damage increase is very very mediocre. Its like striking stone with needle. Not worth the effort or time.
2- Practical Stealth Duration 2 seconds in battle - NO use at all in PvE or PvP which mean all damage buffs related to stealth are waste
3- All power, feats are STILL useless.
4- No survive ability AT ALL - stealth was the reason TR was surviving long enough to deal damage.
5- TR is dead as soon as mobs, boss or enemy pvper sense the TR
Net Result: TR is a dead class. No practical application for this class. Major Rework needed.
Recommended: Retire the TR class or redesign TR accordingly. (You have my suggestion from my 5 years experience as rogue above.)
Conclusion: Not a rogue class anymore due to catering for non-TR players. Something unique to Neverwinter. Will be dropping this game with these changes or if the TR remain the same.
Thanks for the 2 months of gameplay in case we part ways here. Enjoyed the intelligent stuff that came out of this game.
Comments
Dodge change is very good, but we would need smaller dodges, like HR, about 3/4 of the old value, not bigger (as if I understand correctly, the 50% farther makes its bigger. Also it makes some more locations accessible, possibly making some new cheese content). Bigger dodge makes the class less mobile, because if I dodge away, I will be very far from the target (dragon for example) and I would need to cover a larger distance on foot, to get back in fight, even if I try to dodge towards the dragon.
Now it feels like a gap closer in pvp, rather than a safekeeping utility.
One more thing would be very welcome: some movement speed. Make DEXterity to increase movement speed by 1%. That would make the class more mobile, and would compensate the crit chance changes with stealth.
Also at-wills should drain stealth at a slower rate, at least to finish one DF in stealth. As it stands now, GC is a bit OP at-will in the look of others. (Rate could be 15% in pvp. Make it different for pve-pvp like frontline surge prone/stun, if that's possible)
Sly Flourish also need some more utility, like a cleaving effect, to make it a bit of AOE.
Dazing Strike change is great, and I can see the logic in the PotB change too, need some testing though, but I like it on paper.
All in all, I think the last change was made in a very good direction, thanks for that.
I'm confused... how is this an improvement?
It feels like a nerf to me... you deliver the exact same damage if facing 3 targets as current vs 1, but if you face 1 target you are taking a 66% damage nerf....
I don't understand how dividing the same damage among 3 foes instead of 1 is better than delivering it all to one... its the same damage output... If I'm missing something, please enlighten me...
It would therefore be a welcome change to make Disheartening Strike tick faster (mobs don't normally live very long in PvE for the full 15 seconds to tick through) and also to make Sly Flourish more useful.
Sly Flourish on Preview compared with Duelist's Flurry and Gloaming Cut fares the worst pretty much regardless of which paragon and feats you pick. You would indeed be better off going with Cloud of Steel and either DF/GC/DH rather Sly Flourish.
That At Will could certainly use some love.
Agree with theese, especialy about the move speed. My DC run faster than my TR.
Also Gloaming Cut too strong in stealth, hit harder than most of our encounter.
Hey GMC,
I'm part of the camp that thought the current dodge was too long - as an MI, it took me completely out of combat when I just wanted to get on the other side of my enemy. The efficiency is great, I've been hoping for a decrease in stamina cost, but the extended range of dodge only helps WKs. It will now be completely too far and will require a gap closer or another dodge to get back into the fight. Is there any way I could get you to reconsider?
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Same here. Don't know exactly how a 50% longer dodge will affect me, but it certainly sounds like it would create more problems than it would solve. But I'll give it an honest chance and come back with better feedback once I feel I've gotten a handle on it. Or perhaps much more knowledgeable Rogues can provide their input, since I'm still somewhat knew to TR.
On the one hand, I want to applaud devs for reviewing all the feedback on this thread and making some real changes. I hope we're not done yet. That said, I have my two bits I would like to add (and I am strictly a PVE player):
Literally no one on this entire thread asked for longer dodges. Yes, this will provide a much-needed breather no longer afforded us due to shorter stealth, but it will also take our slow melee-only class out of the fight. I like the shorter hit on stamina, but I would have liked shorter dodges more than longer dodges (or maybe even faster dodges?). I think this could be offset by making what should be the fastest class in the game faster. Dex adding bonuses to movement would be a nice start. Or more movement bonuses from armor sets. Something to make Rogues quicker
Next up: Artifact Weapons. With DF fully nerfed (who wants to be stuck in that animation AND visible to enemies??), that leaves us with CoS and SF as our only two AW options, neither of which are improved in this Mod. So....A GC artifact? Or something?!?? It is especially disheartening to those of us who spent time (and AD) on leveling up our DF artifact weapon.
I mean, one of the best Feats was +1/2/3/5% critical for me AND my teammates. I had several Team members that appreciate to have an TR in the group because they did more damage because of 5% more critical strike.
An additional problem is the stealth degeneration and 15% penalty while i attack out of stealth. In PvE the TR is for me a sneaky *******. Get close to a Monster, go in stealth, start duelist flurry with combat advantage which means 15% more damage (+x% more damage if i skilled the feats proper) and go out of stealth with a wicked reminder to debuff the monster.
Now i lose my strongest weapon, The Stealth. I mean, it sounds cool to get an additional 100% critical strike chance but it's odd that i can't use it. Please take the 100% critical strike and give me back my proper stealth. Give me more Items and Feats that give me more combat advantage bonus. And please Fix Charisma.
I mean. I have an 18.000 Gearscore Half Orc Trickster Rogue. I play since open Beta. I make really good damage because i set combat advantage as a primary stat for me, which is hard because there are only 3 Artifacts that give me a bonus on it and only 1 boon. Okay at the end it is only +8,8% but if i had more points or a feat to spend some points in it (or would charisma not buggy
This means the TR need in PvE only a small push in the right direction and all will be fine. But now, you nerf stealth and i have the feeling the TR will only be a another big offensive melee fighter like the GWF in PvE and not the cool executioner that appears out of stealth it is now.
Please let stealth like it is. Fix Charisma and give us 1 or 2 feats for more damage in combat advantage. I know that it is important to keep the balance in PvP but i think the problem is the lack of an proper counter to an perma stealth rogue. I think you could make it easy for everyone if you give them one item for a potion slot that gives a small buff for 1 minute that allows the character to see invisible things.
Something like...
The Stone Of True Sight: Grants the user with the vision to raise the veil and see the person that hides in it (most likely Trickster Rogues) for 1 minute. In addition the user get +100 recovery and tenacity while the vision is active. Can be used every 3 minutes.
All testing done in IWD with the Hybrid Sco/Exe build mentioned a few hundred posts ago using Dazing Strike, WR, and ITC
- Dazing Strike: Dazing Strike hit no faster than before and did not appear to hit targets in a cone.
- Dodge: Dodge changes yet to appear. Still using 50% of stamina per roll with no difference in dodge distance. Shorter dodge times/animations would also be welcome.
- Concussive Strike/Skullcracker: Changes present and noticeable, thank you. I was able to string Skullcracker with Stealth, WK, WK x3, <gap>, Dazing Strike in an almost indefinite manner, the exception being against giants and other control immune mobs (who were the only ones to successfully kill me)
- First Strike I noticed no real difference, but I also wasn't running LB damage tests
Thank you for listening to our feedback and requests thus far.Post Script:
Two suggestions:
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
I should have mentioned that those changes will be in the next build. They are *NOT* on preview yet.
Dodge change is just what the doctor ordered. However, there will be a disagreement based on spec ... I don't agree with the above. As a WK, I would greatly appreciate an increased dodge distance!
Feedback/Suggestions
- Not a fan of a longer distance dodge
I would prefer shorter distance, but more frequency,
- Gloaming Cut does better single target damage in a sustained duration than Duelist Furry.
Make Duelist Furry (and all those of us that upgraded our Artifacts) a usable at-will. Increase the damage, or give us a higher deflect from the start of using it. Since we can't use it in stealth, it has become useless.
Agreed. WK can, and should, be a great path that is worthwhile to play. It needs something that's the bomb for it alone ... and that's DiS. It should hit hard and be the power a WK builds around.
Feedback: dodge distance for TR increased by 50%
I am worried about this distance increase for several reasons.
1) dodge as it is in mod 4 is far enough to almost make me fall off platforms when doing certain boss battles, an increase in dodge distance will throw me to my death.
2) We can try to roll into our enemy to prevent rolling away and falling to our deaths, but what if the enemy moves?
3) perhaps you can give whisperknife a feat that increases dodge range?
Awesome changes. But Vengeance's pursuit needs some more tweaking (yes, really)
1) The cooldown is still too long, give it 3 charges or reduce it to either 0 (Like before) or 4 seconds like the old wicked reminder
2) I noticed the mark duration of VP was reduced to 8 seconds. This mark either needs to last a good 20-30 seconds or forever. Sometimes you re-apply the mark too late and get CCed afterwards.
BUG: Vengneace's Pursuit does NOT break from CW's Icy Rays
More feedback:
Master Infiltrator has a HUGE advantage over WhisperKnife at the moment, and that is Gloaming Cut which does not drain stealth.
Please make Disheartening Strike not drain 15% of our stealth meter just like GC. That way the two paragon at-wills can be even. Thanks
Deft Strike: Good utility buff but the cooldown is long as well, needs to be reduced.
This is just awesome, gc. Looking forward to testing it!
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Stealth: at-wills should drain stealth at a slower rate for pve about 5% and 10% for pvp as it is now Stealth drains before
one DF can finish.
Stealth: should refill at a slow rate when taking damage. ( found it hard to get stealth back in IWD when not slotting for it. )
feels like most TR's will just take out DF for GC would be nice to still be able to feat DF in the
Executioner tree maybe a rework of (deadly momentum).
Would like to see ( Critical Teamwork ) added back in as this was a awesome party buff, everyother player loved this feat.
I just don't want to be pigeon holed into using GC for my at-will just like we were before with DF. Would be nice to be able to pick from both. ( being able to feet both )
Most TR's have a DF Artifact weapon working there way to getting it Legendary but now with no feat for it feels like a big waste of time. Plus there is no Artifact weapon for GC.
I totally understand how hard it is to balance a Stealth class, IMO i think it would be better if powers could work different in pve/pvp
I understand trying to stop perma builds, but not at the detriment of Stealth pve TR's.
most of the new changes are awesome and i know the DEV's are working hard. Would just like them to think again about the Stealth change in pve.
Butters TR PVP
I think that's intended, fung.
I also thought that it'd be cool if CS procs with DoTs.. but that would sort of make DHS like a slightly toned-down version of the old Constricting Arrow. 15s duration, a total of 3 dazes every 5 seconds... I think that'd raise a few eyebrows.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
A ranged burst is something WK's COULD excel it if it had such a mechanic, and it will not be terribly overpowered in Stealth since At-Wills drain Stealth. So WK's would use Stealth to set up their Dish Strike bursts, and this would heavily synergize with Dagger Threat.
Feedback: Gloaming Cut: I absolutely LOVE the buffs to Gloaming Cut. It's a high risk, high reward At-Will at its current state in preview. In live, it's a high risk, medium reward sort of At-Will. But the buffs to Gloaming Cut puts it on par with Duelist's Flurry. Even though it doesn't have that 2 second CC immunity frame, the damage increase as the target's HP goes down makes up for the loss in utility. I approve of this wholeheartedly as one avid user of Gloaming Cut, even when everyone else told me otherwise.
Feedback: Impossible to Catch: It's sad to hear that our 5 seconds of immunity when used from Stealth is gone. Back when I was still able to enter dungeons with my now-dead former guild, it was useful in boss fights where we could increase our uptime against the boss, Flurry-ing them as often as possible and keeping the Bleeds up. But with the new meta in boss fights, where one mistake can take you out of combat completely, losing the immunity mechanic may hurt our survival capabilities. This is speaking strictly from a PVE point of view. If we are to factor PVP with the new change, it makes a lot of sense. 5 seconds of complete and total immunity is a scary power to wield in PVP. Considering how we could have it up so often.
All I ask, however, is to give us some sort of utility mechanic in place of the loss of immunity. Since the skill is called "Impossible to Catch", why not give us some sort of mechanic that would make us truly impossible to catch. Such as "When used, you deflect all attacks for 5 seconds and run 50% faster. When used from Stealth, you gain 50% increased damage reduction as well as double the run speed." It would be an excellent tool for chasing a running opponent or to escape a deadly red zone or combat area. It won't be terribly overpowered as this is merely a utility buff, and this will also give rogues the mobility they need when they truly need it. It's not a bad compromise, considering the loss in Immunity and given this skill's cooldown.
Feedback: Vengeance's Pursuit: Tried and tested in preview, doesn't seem like the changes are that noticeable. The power still feels awfully lackluster and clunky, and it is in DIRE need of an oomph comparable to that of ITC for the WK path to be desired. ITC is a utility power, and this gives it flexibility. What Vengeance's Pursuit lacks is utility. The damage buffs are nice but it doesn't seem like there's much use for it aside from the teleportation as well as the short CC-break mechanic which is highly situational. You need to have done the initial throw before you are able to break out of CC, and this is where the problem lies. Its CC mechanic is also lackluster, very difficult to use.
Why not give it a creative yet doable charge mechanic? 3 charges, 5 seconds each charge like Wicked Reminder. The marked target becomes affected by "Pursuit." Pursuit lasts 15 seconds, and as long as someone is a target for "Pursuit," he or she will be the target for the teleportation mechanic of VP. The Whisperknife will be able to teleport to the target regardless of visibility. As long as he has been marked by the knife throw portion of the skill, the Whisperknife follows; exactly what a Whisperknife should do. Just an idea, though...
Feedback: Deft Strike, Dazing Strike: The changes are very simple, but I can see this power becoming a go-to encounter for Scoundrels. Deft Strike, Dazing Strike, Smoke Bomb. It's now VERY possible to create a CON/HP Deflect/Permalock build, which is an interesting high-risk high reward play style. I'm excited to see what the Deflect Rogues can cook up with Scoundrel, as they are the only existing build archetype at the moment who can support such a risky play style.
Feedback: First Strike: This CF is awfully scary at its current state in preview. The tweak was well-deserved as a 100% increase may prove to be too powerful. Another possible adjustment to this skill would be to make adjustments to the amount of time a player stays in combat after fleeing. The current cooldown for combat, if I remember correctly, is 8 seconds. That is long, but it wouldn't hurt to extend that to 10 seconds.
Feedback: Saboteur Changes: The changes are amazing and they FINALLY make this paragon feat tree playable. Thank you so much, devs.
Feedback: Scoundrel Changes: Same here. This feat tree was nigh horrible at first, though not as horrible as Saboteur. But the changes are very intelligent and introduces a lot of new playstyles for rogues who are looking for something more than just Stealth.
Feedback: Executioner Changes: The damage bonuses are amazing, very well thought of. However I'm just not sure about Shadow of Demise dealing un-resistable piercing damage. We all know how badly this can screw up PVP. Although it's awfully nice to have this in our kits.
I don't think it would make it anymore useful, since you only need to throw it once and it always crits in stealth. I reckon its better if we had a feat which reduced stealth drain from CoS (only for WK). eg. CoS now drains 12/9/6/3/0% of stealth
Butters TR PVP
Ah ****. Back to square 1 of theory crafting. Theres not much choice for WK since Sab and Exce both revolve around stealth. And stealth is one thing WK can do anymore.
If Vengeance Pursuit can teleport us behind the target, that may open up the Sab tree for us.
I think we could make some mean work out of Gutterborn's Touch if VP teleports us behind the target
Butters TR PVP
What I would like to suggest is this: Currently using an encounter in stealth ends it immediately. I propose apart from Stealth draining normally when activated, that each encounter drains a portion of Stealth instead of terminating it.
For example, using an encounter in Stealth requires draining 25% of it. Players can then time and execute their rotations to maximize the benefit of the feats from each tree, such that there's the possibility of executing 3 encounters within one Stealth activation.
And if players feat for it, they can increase the capacity of Stealth eg. Improved Cunning Streak's 20% would increase the capacity to 120% to allow more allowance in combat maneuver to squeeze in that 3 encounters combo.
Actually, I'm currently using the following combo with Saboteuer. Works perfectly in PvE, much more difficult to pull it off in PvP.
Try this fung;
stealth → DHS → 1~2 CoS shots → VP(throw) from stealth, refresh stealth with OWTS → maneuver behind target → 2~3 CoS shots → Impact Shot from stealth from rear, stealth off → enemy is stunned, cannot change heading → immediately activate VP(teleport) → VP teleport activates 3 slashing attacks to backside → Return to Shadows x 3 times = 75% stealth filled → dodge away,Twilight Adept feat fills 10% more stealth → the time spent since VP(teleport) to dodging away fills rest 15% along the way → stealth meter full by the time you finish dodge, restealth
Works against all mobs except those with CC immunity or resistance. Excellent and cool way to fight with WK/Sab in PvE. In case of PvP, tenacity makes the Impact Shot stun really short, so it usually will not be a guaranteed connect. The target usually breaks out of stun and starts moving by the time your VP(teleport) lands. If he's got his backside exposed it works the same as in PvE, if not, it fails.
Make extensive use of ranged encounters with Saboteuer. IMO, at least for PvP purposes Sab is the best choice for WKs, followed by Exec. Exec has more damage, but now with Shadow of Demise bug fixed (only procs with encounters) and First Strike toned down, Sab with its overall increase in damage as well as utility/survivability has Exec beat.
Will have to see if the new Scoundrel changes my opinion of things.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Finally, I am still seeing daze's in the notes. As mentioned before, a stun would be a much much better option for us do to being melee attackers and having to use most encounters on utility. Would love a stun so we could have a better chance to land our at wills. Just a thought.
I will try to be as clear as possible:
My tests show that in a very long run (90 minutes hitting a dummy with a companion to trigger combat advantage) there is no difference in damage regardless the points in CHA.
What actually works fine is the combact advantage stat. To say one: the lantern artifact does indded amplify my damage of a flat 5 per cent.
Class overview: Rogues are sneaky, intelligent, deal devastating damage, Deflect instead of Defense, tricksters, trappers, slippery, disguise artists, escape artists, liars, con men/women, attack speed 2 times that of fighter with damage 60% of fighter, fastest movement speed - sprinter, acrobatic & stealth play style.
Suggestions:
- NO offense meant (may be
Tweaking your view point about TR - WHAT ARE YOU? ANSWER - A ROGUE:
DPS is a MUST. Tweak Attack speed and damage. No DPS = dead class. Single target damage must be implemented in a way that when TR kill one by one - they can easily match a cw who kill all at once - like TR 1,2,3 ... in 10 seconds = CW all dead in 10 seconds. Because its unfair to restrict one entire class to one by one damage dealing when other classes are not.
Attack speed and movement speed must be the highest among all classes - with attack speed 2 times that of fighter and each attack 55-60% of fighter damage with same gear.
Attacks must have interrupts to casting magic/archery
Stuns are a must
Attacking moving targets is a must - currently all u have to do is walk sideways and TR will miss hits
Highest Deflect, minimum Defense and lengthy stealth survive ability (stealth must not break if TR is not attacking) is a must
Stealth is used for surprise ambush attacks and should vanish once attack is sprung but must be unbroken 3 minute for escaping. Stealth is a defense mechanism and ambush mechanism - nothing more. DPS has to be unrelated to stealth.
Acrobatics fighting style needed - more dodges like HR
Ability to look like your opponent need "disguise" ability and the words "tricked" should not appear which is stupid really - who thought of it?. When TR initiates an attack in disguise - his disguise is blown. (same as stealth)
Trapping/bombing Mechanism advised
Escaping mechanism - stealth for 3 minutes if no attacks are made by TR - simulates the sneakiness of the class / escape artist when in danger + more dodging (LOL NOT Dodge distance - that's an idiotic idea) + highest deflect + low defense
For group - critical team work (crit chance buff) needed and must be exclusive to TR
Powers. feats are too complex for their own good and DO NOT WORK OUT AT ALL with each other and those of other classes (lololololol sorry) Makes TR alienated and high chance to get kicked from party
ITC - well every MMO has its version - 5 seconds immunity is not a big thing and is needed.
Reliance on stealth for offense other than ambush is GAME BREAKING. keep things loyal to rogue class They are ambush predators. DPS is bread and butter for this class.
INTERACTION WITH OTHER CLASSES: CREATE STANDARDS FOR ALL CLASSES especially for their interactions and overlaps or you will be lost lol
Also when pvp
-with SW - soul puppets, SW dps, SW Defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-With GWF - stuns, dps, defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with GF - unbelievable High def, knockouts, buffs creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with HR - running up the distance, unlimited HR dodges stolen from rogue class, stuns, dps, defense creates unbelievable disadvantage to TR, also they can just walk sideways and TR will miss
-with DC - I am cool - they are as poor as TR
- any other class - same problems
Conclusion: With no dps or tricks - TR can't dance - AT ALL (broken sorry)
PS: STOP TAKING TIPS FROM PLAYERS WHO CREATE TR TO INVOKE AD lolololol. I doubt you will ever have a functional rogue without players who actually spend time as rogue.
after a few test on mty rogue i haven't played for a long time here some comment. I hope they're constructive enough.
Powers
• Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack
Good point if you want to end with permastealth but a big loss in pve cause stealth stay the base of our survability. A 10% would be much better especially when you know how difficult it is to refill stealth while taking damages in combat.
• Stealth: Now also grants 100% Critical Chance in addition to Combat Advantage.
very good point in way to make TR (at last) become the single target killer once again.
• First Strike: Damage bonus increased to 33% per rank (up from 5% per rank).
Well it a good point to increase damage bonus as TR has lost most of it but still useless because it use a dot for only ONE hit in a combat that could last several minutes, and most of the time the fisrt strike in combat is an at-will which lower the interest even more. IMAO i think it would be much more interresing to lower the damage bonus (20 - 25%) and trigger it on the first power used after entering stealth.
• Whirlwind of Blades: No longer ignores Damage Resistance and Immunity and can be Deflected.
Still a good daily when correctly managed TR has to be clever ^^.
• Whirlwind of Blades: Now increases your Power by 20% per target hit (up from 10%).
Well done to compensate the loss of damage above.
• Lashing Blade: Stealth: Now strikes with 50% increased Critical Severity.
Main source of damage a real good encounter but CD has to be be lowered. almost 18 sec it is too much For instance GWF IBS is only at 12 sec for the same amount of damages.
• Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks on players.
at last
• Wicked Reminder: Maximum stacks reduced to 3.
doesn't appear on preview server still stack 5 time
• Wicked Reminder: Now reduces the target's defenses by 7% per stack (up from 4%).
doesn't appear on preview server still 4%
• Wicked Reminder: Now has 3 charges and 1 charge is refilled every 5 seconds.
Charges are a good point makes this power almost a third at will. Due to armor loss this is a great source of damage for all group
• Wicked Reminder: Damage increased by roughly 10%.
just perfect like this
And last i think there's three powers that must be redesigned:
duelist flurry: is way too long and too easily escaped.
Shocking execution: Please increase damges it's our last daily and it strike with the potency of a rooted teaspoon. I understand it has been nerfed for pvp purpose but now it is less usefull than an at-will. Seriously based damages are about 4k whereas other class could shoot at a good 10k O.o. We're a single target killers who disapear into shadow dash behind ennemy prepare a massive blow and .... no we just tickle him sorry let's try again. It's a bit frustrating^^.
dodge: lower the cost to dodge at least 4 time. I mean really we are a dodge class design to fight boss side by side with GWF and we have less chance of escaping attacks than a CW. As our armor is on best as efficient than ranger or warlock guess who died first?
15k GS TR with greater vorpal + lvl 7 enchants
1- Damage increase is very very mediocre. Its like striking stone with needle. Not worth the effort or time.
2- Practical Stealth Duration 2 seconds in battle - NO use at all in PvE or PvP which mean all damage buffs related to stealth are waste
3- All power, feats are STILL useless.
4- No survive ability AT ALL - stealth was the reason TR was surviving long enough to deal damage.
5- TR is dead as soon as mobs, boss or enemy pvper sense the TR
Net Result: TR is a dead class. No practical application for this class. Major Rework needed.
Recommended: Retire the TR class or redesign TR accordingly. (You have my suggestion from my 5 years experience as rogue above.)
Conclusion: Not a rogue class anymore due to catering for non-TR players. Something unique to Neverwinter. Will be dropping this game with these changes or if the TR remain the same.
Thanks for the 2 months of gameplay in case we part ways here. Enjoyed the intelligent stuff that came out of this game.