There is nothing wrong with it being 500:1, the only problem is the backlog.
Of course there is something wrong with that ratio. AD inflation on the AH is what it wrong with it.
If that's not the case then you are saying that a 4 mil AD enchant is worth $80.
$20/million AD in this economy is nuts...and if you want to know why there's such a big backlog, and why 3rd party AD sales continue on their merry way, you don't need to look much farther than that.
Want to 'fix' the Exchange? Stop trying to manage the currencies and let them float against each other.
Yes, absolutely. Let the two currencies float against each other, seek their own natural level, and the backlog will vanish in fairly short order.
No it'll just go to a billion to one in short order and the 99% and new players will be locked out of the game. Too many exploiters with all their money still that will manipulate everything to make even more. Just like real life. Want proof look at this guys mounts. It's circumstantial but it says a lot. http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?747101-Hero-of-the-North-amp-Guardian-Packs-for-Zen
If we all refuse to buy Zen Produts that are selling in the AH we may force therse annoying "Traders" to use the Exchange to get their ADs and get rid of this backlog... BTW we had a big Thread about this problem these days, its good to keep it alive http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?745851-The-AD-Zen-Exchange
No, won't work, there is a saying "There's a fool born every minute" you may reduce the buyers but you'll never get rid of them.
The problem is the price ceiling on zen. Basic economics shows what happens when you create a price ceiling. People have to "black market" their way around the ceiling, like you suggest. They should simply remove the ceiling on AD:Zen conversions and the market will sort itself out.
Do you have any idea how astronomical items on the AH would skyrocket to if the ceiling was removed?
Do you have any idea how astronomical items on the AH would skyrocket to if the ceiling was removed?
Seriously, think about it.
Only in the short term. AD inflation will persist because unlike Zen, AD gets created inside the game with no external actions. There will always be more and more and more AD. AD-flation is inevitable.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited August 2014
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No it'll just go to a billion to one in short order and the 99% and new players will be locked out of the game. Too many exploiters with all their money still that will manipulate everything to make even more. Just like real life. Want proof look at this guys mounts. It's circumstantial but it says a lot. http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?747101-Hero-of-the-North-amp-Guardian-Packs-for-Zen
Ok, I see your point. Now, what do you propose to do...or do you propose that nothing should be done...about the ever-diminishing purchasing power of Zen in-game? By that I mean; as AD prices inflate...which they will do in any MMO, or any economy where currency comes into existance out of thin air...the purchsing power of Zen (when converted to AD for AH buys) deflates. It has to as long as the two currencies are locked together.
Do we ask that Zen be indexed to the charted AD rate of inflation so that the real-world dollar keeps parity in terms of purchasing power? That's an ok, if not ideal, solution.
We really can just stop using the word Zen here and start calling the proverbial spade a spade; Zen brought into the game via the Exchange are dollars. Expecting the people spending dollars...who are the people who keep the servers lit...to accept a continual cycle of getting less and less for their dollars is not sustainable. At some point they will stop spending in sufficient quantities to keep PW happy.
I see a lot of arguments...and have had a few insults tossed my way...from people on the "keep Zen cheap to acquire with AD" contingent. I have to assume that the majority of those people are free-to-players. I have not seen much from the side of "Hey, I'm spending money here...and it's worth less and less in terms of AH purchasing power the longer this locked exchange rate continues." I suspect that's because there are vehicles to bypass the exchange, like coal wards.
Either way, Charonous, 500:1 is not a sustainable place for the exchange to be. It's certainly desirable if you're using AD to buy Zen...but that's not the transaction keeping the game running.
Ok, I see your point. Now, what do you propose to do...or do you propose that nothing should be done...about the ever-diminishing purchasing power of Zen in-game? By that I mean; as AD prices inflate...which they will do in any MMO, or any economy where currency comes into existance out of thin air...the purchsing power of Zen (when converted to AD for AH buys) deflates. It has to as long as the two currencies are locked together.
Do we ask that Zen be indexed to the charted AD rate of inflation so that the real-world dollar keeps parity in terms of purchasing power? That's an ok, if not ideal, solution.
We really can just stop using the word Zen here and start calling the proverbial spade a spade; Zen brought into the game via the Exchange are dollars. Expecting the people spending dollars...who are the people who keep the servers lit...to accept a continual cycle of getting less and less for their dollars is not sustainable. At some point they will stop spending in sufficient quantities to keep PW happy.
I see a lot of arguments...and have had a few insults tossed my way...from people on the "keep Zen cheap to acquire with AD" contingent. I have to assume that the majority of those people are free-to-players. I have not seen much from the side of "Hey, I'm spending money here...and it's worth less and less in terms of AH purchasing power the longer this locked exchange rate continues." I suspect that's because there are vehicles to bypass the exchange, like coal wards.
Either way, Charonous, 500:1 is not a sustainable place for the exchange to be. It's certainly desirable if you're using AD to buy Zen...but that's not the transaction keeping the game running.
Well I'm a pay sometimes ZAX sometimes customer, like most of the paying playerbase. I would bet the number of only paying customers that have been here long could be counted on one hand, so I think your argument is far to simple on that. I'd also say that without new players getting comfortable with the system the game won't last long and the game won't keep running. The only way to remove the 500 cap would be to pull respecs, p and c wards out and put them on the WB to protect new players. Without access to these at a reasonable AD price in a reasonable time frame this game can not keep new players and will eventually fail.
The limit is fine. It's roughly the same as in other PWE games, where the exchange rate is usually below the maximum. The problem is that AD is too easy to get. The 1000s of leadership bots owned by players is just the tip of the iceberg. The bots are going at it with even larger numbers. As long as there's an unchecked free amount of AD being generated -refined or otherwise- the inflation will never stop. 20 leadership bots with 6 slots generate 3mil refined AD a week. All that AD needs to be spent. And since the rich people compare their prices to their own wallets and not the effort it takes to get it, prices will simply explode.
There's a reason no other game offers free currency without any work in exchange. It's the same reason it's not being done in real life. If the US mint would print an extra 500mil USD right now, what do you think that will do to the valuta exchange market? What do you think that will do to all the outstanding loans the US has? Exactly.
Well I'm a pay sometimes ZAX sometimes customer, like most of the paying playerbase. I would bet the number of only paying customers that have been here long could be counted on one hand, so I think your argument is far to simple on that. I'd also say that without new players getting comfortable with the system the game won't last long and the game won't keep running. The only way to remove the 500 cap would be to pull respecs, p and c wards out and put them on the WB to protect new players. Without access to these at a reasonable AD price in a reasonable time frame this game can not keep new players and will eventually fail.
So then, it's ok that Zen...dollars...will continue to buy less and less in-game so that free-2-players can keep Zen affordable to new players and ever-cheaper to old players accumulating ever-increasing amounts of AD?
So then, it's ok that Zen...dollars...will continue to buy less and less in-game so that free-2-players can keep Zen affordable to new players and ever-cheaper to old players accumulating ever-increasing amounts of AD?
MMO's will always lose old players over time, without new players, that stick around for a while, games fail. If things aren't kept affordable for new players, the playerbase will decline and the game will fail as the paying customers as you call them will have no one to play with.
maan....all this theoretical talking... is cryptic even listening our only trouble in this matter at all after all this!?...i hope they do but then again if developers, directors, creators did listen the gaming, movie and such industries would be a lot different (better or not can be argued case basis)...
still hope they do listen (read in this case ofc...)
Restricting AD intake is pretty hard, though. The RAD refining limit is fairly low (considering the cost of stuff on the AH), so it makes no sense to lower it. You could limit how much RAD an account can refine in a day, but could potentially discourage making new chars on an account.
The main source of all this AD inflation is from the AH, where "whales" suck the AD others have gotten in the economy to themselves. Unless you're willing to limit how much you can make off the AH (which would be a very unpopular move, not to mention annoying to regular players) to a set amount/min. 1 item, there's nothing you can do about it.
There's no easy solution, that's for sure. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this problem.
MMO's will always lose old players over time, without new players, that stick around for a while, games fail. If things aren't kept affordable for new players, the playerbase will decline and the game will fail as the paying customers as you call them will have no one to play with.
Charanous, it's not "the paying customers as I call them"...it's "the paying customers". People who put dollars into PW's account. That's not a subjective term, at all.
And so, your answer seems to be "yes, it's ok that real dollars continue to buy less and less in-game".
They'll have to. You can argue that the current backlog doesn't hurt them and you can even argue that it "entices" people to buy more zen. But people aren't stupid. If you can't even respec within a decent amount of time in a F2P game without spending money, people leave. Quickly. It may result in a short term profit, but in the long run it'll cost them players.
So they listen, I don't doubt that. Whatever crazy -and possibly stubborn and self-invented- idea they come up with is anyone's guess. But they know they have to try something. That is, if they want to get past mod 7 without losing 30% of the F2P players.
The only question I have for them is this: Who's the economic mastermind who figured that free (and mostly) unrestricted currency would have no effect on the game's economy and why haven't you fired him/her yet?
No offense, but do you have any real hard evidence of this fact?
Charanous, it's not "the paying customers as I call them"...it's "the paying customers". People who put dollars into PW's account. That's not a subjective term, at all.
And so, your answer seems to be "yes, it's ok that real dollars continue to buy less and less in-game".
And your definition of paying is very very simplistic. Almost no one only spends real money. Most people that spend also use the ZAX.
They'll have to. You can argue that the current backlog doesn't hurt them and you can even argue that it "entices" people to buy more zen. But people aren't stupid. If you can't even respec within a decent amount of time in a F2P game without spending money, people leave. Quickly. It may result in a short term profit, but in the long run it'll cost them players.
So they listen, I don't doubt that. Whatever crazy -and possibly stubborn and self-invented- idea they come up with is anyone's guess. But they know they have to try something. That is, if they want to get past mod 7 without losing 30% of the F2P players.
The only question I have for them is this: Who's the economic mastermind who figured that free (and mostly) unrestricted currency would have no effect on the game's economy and why haven't you fired him/her yet?
true argument sir!...very true indeed ...apparently just a few days back my guildie and 1 were talking the same..." the game started and climbed heights too quick with the 'free 2 play' case..but like this they are gonna fall down much tooo steeply...that would be sad...but...
Well it only took 11 days for my order to finally appear, and the backlog looks to be dropping at a steady rate, not a lot, but dropping nonetheless.
...ima cry out loud like a baby now....you're the 10 or so person saying it took u only so much tie for it...that waay to fast according to wwhere im standing at...2+ months now >.<
Of what fact?
The fact they listen? No, other than mods saying so. But any self-respecting company would be a fool not to listen to customer feedback, regardless of what they do with it.
The fact it costs them players if they do nothing? I have no numbers from Neverwinter, but it would hardly the first -or the last- MMO losing playerbase because some basic items were behind a paywall that takes months to breach.
Apply the situation to yourself if you wish. If you are a new free player -and most new lvl60s are- and you realize that your skill setup is completely unfit for party use or it barely works, but you get kicked from parties for not having the right abilities. How would you react to the fact that it's going to take you 3 months to get a respec? Would you keep playing? Or would you say "It's not the 5 bucks that bother me, but paying for a respec or waiting 3 months for a free one is simply unheard of and definitely not player friendly."?
The post-60 advancement is no alternative. Power points are hardly guaranteed and by the time you've managed to get some extra skills, you would have saved enough AD for a respec and do it properly.
People can wait for Cwards, mounts, dyes and stuff. Nobody bats an eye if you have to wait for that, except for PvP people, who are always in a hurry xD. Slow access to vanity stuff is annoying at best, but no game breaker. Being forced to grind AD for 2 months with nothing else to do but the campaigns and the daily GG/foundry quests and THEN waiting over a month to receive your zen to buy a respec is definitely game breaker in my opinion. It better be a dam good game if it expects me to wait that long to get my character in order.
So far you aren't presenting evidence, just what your personal opinion is. MMOs lose customers not because of pay walls, they lose them because players just lose interest. It's just how it is. Even the mightiest MMO is falling to that syndrome. Has little to do with pay walls.
...ima cry out loud like a baby now....you're the 10 or so person saying it took u only so much tie for it...that waay to fast according to wwhere im standing at...2+ months now >.<
I know right. I'm still waiting on orders I placed on the 4th of last month.
That's weird. Shouldn't it be first-come-first served? I've only heard reports of ~12 days wait, so it doesn't make sense for anybody to wait longer.
Bug report maybe?
EDIT: In response to the poster above me, I think the general idea is that having to wait for a respec is game-breaking. For you, the wait for a respec token IS what causes them to "lose interest."
Placed an order on 8/19 for 500 ZEN @ 500AD. Order was filled today. So at least from my observation it's about 1 day per million on the ZAX for order filling delays.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
That's weird. Shouldn't it be first-come-first served? I've only heard reports of ~12 days wait, so it doesn't make sense for anybody to wait longer.
Bug report maybe?
EDIT: In response to the poster above me, I think the general idea is that having to wait for a respec is game-breaking. For you, the wait for a respec token IS what causes them to "lose interest."
I doubt a "wait" for a respec token is the reason they lose interest or quit. More or less just the immediate answer given. Human beings are very susceptible to environmental influence, it's been proven many times that people will often use what they see or hear to answer a general question with multiple choice answers to it.
That's weird. Shouldn't it be first-come-first served? I've only heard reports of ~12 days wait, so it doesn't make sense for anybody to wait longer.
Bug report maybe?
EDIT: In response to the poster above me, I think the general idea is that having to wait for a respec is game-breaking. For you, the wait for a respec token IS what causes them to "lose interest."
heh!...done bug reporting..hell even talked to akro in-game for that...its not really that much of a use though...the answers are what is already known...split the values of zen and ADs (mayb)...done that too...soo yeah...thats y im super annoyed..
i do however realize that theres a place called 'AH' for alternative..but thats 1 of the issues too...not only is it an issue regarding zen and zen/AD exchange topic but also (and this is my thinking not saying about others) the fact that most if the zen market items on AH are waaaaay to overly priced...but still easy to access (way to easy r not i dont know...but...)..thats 1 of the reasons y people go for ADs more now-a-days instead of Zen...hell if u post a comment in zone chat saying my order on exchange is pending for over a week or a month or 2 months (as in my case) well all that people say is..."then y dont u stop trying to get zen and instead keep farming ADs and buy offa the AH...its easier that way"..my response to that: "but thats not how its supposed to be...and though thats true but prices on AH are skyrocketing waaay too much even in comparison to zen market items' prices..."
i mean 1 item on zen in available for 1200zen the same item is 650+k ADs on AH...650+k!!...really...1 zen is currently (horrendously ) worth 500ADs to begin with...u want me to spend days and nights only farming them ADs instead of enjoying the game...i might as well leave and go play Dragon Age Inquisition or Divinity Original Sin or such games where i dont have to do that and they even have better story-lines and game play value as compared to any mmo (obviously every single player game with multiplayer option which is not a mmo always has waay better story-line, graphics and game play value...look at elder scrolls...the 1-5 were praised by every single gamer out there no matter what genre the player played...how many players played, let alone praised elder scrolls 6 mmo?)... >.<
And your definition of paying is very very simplistic. Almost no one only spends real money. Most people that spend also use the ZAX.
Yes, "people who pay PW real money as part of their gaming are paying customers" is simplistic. It's simplistic because it's a simple concept. It's hard to complicate that one, and your assertion that most people spending real money are using the Zax is both impossible to substantiate and doesn't change anything I've said.
Yes, "people who pay PW real money as part of their gaming are paying customers" is simplistic. It's simplistic because it's a simple concept. It's hard to complicate that one, and your assertion that most people spending real money are using the Zax is both impossible to substantiate and doesn't change anything I've said.
I usually do. Any spare Zen I have left over I usually put up on the market for a few extra diamonds for later.
Comments
Of course there is something wrong with that ratio. AD inflation on the AH is what it wrong with it.
If that's not the case then you are saying that a 4 mil AD enchant is worth $80.
$20/million AD in this economy is nuts...and if you want to know why there's such a big backlog, and why 3rd party AD sales continue on their merry way, you don't need to look much farther than that.
Want to 'fix' the Exchange? Stop trying to manage the currencies and let them float against each other.
Did you 100% put it at 500:1?
Do you have any idea how astronomical items on the AH would skyrocket to if the ceiling was removed?
Seriously, think about it.
Only in the short term. AD inflation will persist because unlike Zen, AD gets created inside the game with no external actions. There will always be more and more and more AD. AD-flation is inevitable.
This thread has been cleansed. It is never okay to insult anyone and it is not acceptable to discuss bad behavior on the forums. Keep it clean folks. If one cannot express their opinion without being rude or insulting, or otherwise violating the rules, then please do not post on our forums. Thanks!
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Ok, I see your point. Now, what do you propose to do...or do you propose that nothing should be done...about the ever-diminishing purchasing power of Zen in-game? By that I mean; as AD prices inflate...which they will do in any MMO, or any economy where currency comes into existance out of thin air...the purchsing power of Zen (when converted to AD for AH buys) deflates. It has to as long as the two currencies are locked together.
Do we ask that Zen be indexed to the charted AD rate of inflation so that the real-world dollar keeps parity in terms of purchasing power? That's an ok, if not ideal, solution.
We really can just stop using the word Zen here and start calling the proverbial spade a spade; Zen brought into the game via the Exchange are dollars. Expecting the people spending dollars...who are the people who keep the servers lit...to accept a continual cycle of getting less and less for their dollars is not sustainable. At some point they will stop spending in sufficient quantities to keep PW happy.
I see a lot of arguments...and have had a few insults tossed my way...from people on the "keep Zen cheap to acquire with AD" contingent. I have to assume that the majority of those people are free-to-players. I have not seen much from the side of "Hey, I'm spending money here...and it's worth less and less in terms of AH purchasing power the longer this locked exchange rate continues." I suspect that's because there are vehicles to bypass the exchange, like coal wards.
Either way, Charonous, 500:1 is not a sustainable place for the exchange to be. It's certainly desirable if you're using AD to buy Zen...but that's not the transaction keeping the game running.
Well I'm a pay sometimes ZAX sometimes customer, like most of the paying playerbase. I would bet the number of only paying customers that have been here long could be counted on one hand, so I think your argument is far to simple on that. I'd also say that without new players getting comfortable with the system the game won't last long and the game won't keep running. The only way to remove the 500 cap would be to pull respecs, p and c wards out and put them on the WB to protect new players. Without access to these at a reasonable AD price in a reasonable time frame this game can not keep new players and will eventually fail.
So then, it's ok that Zen...dollars...will continue to buy less and less in-game so that free-2-players can keep Zen affordable to new players and ever-cheaper to old players accumulating ever-increasing amounts of AD?
MMO's will always lose old players over time, without new players, that stick around for a while, games fail. If things aren't kept affordable for new players, the playerbase will decline and the game will fail as the paying customers as you call them will have no one to play with.
still hope they do listen (read in this case ofc...)
The main source of all this AD inflation is from the AH, where "whales" suck the AD others have gotten in the economy to themselves. Unless you're willing to limit how much you can make off the AH (which would be a very unpopular move, not to mention annoying to regular players) to a set amount/min. 1 item, there's nothing you can do about it.
There's no easy solution, that's for sure. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this problem.
Charanous, it's not "the paying customers as I call them"...it's "the paying customers". People who put dollars into PW's account. That's not a subjective term, at all.
And so, your answer seems to be "yes, it's ok that real dollars continue to buy less and less in-game".
No offense, but do you have any real hard evidence of this fact?
And your definition of paying is very very simplistic. Almost no one only spends real money. Most people that spend also use the ZAX.
true argument sir!...very true indeed
So far you aren't presenting evidence, just what your personal opinion is. MMOs lose customers not because of pay walls, they lose them because players just lose interest. It's just how it is. Even the mightiest MMO is falling to that syndrome. Has little to do with pay walls.
That's weird. Shouldn't it be first-come-first served? I've only heard reports of ~12 days wait, so it doesn't make sense for anybody to wait longer.
Bug report maybe?
EDIT: In response to the poster above me, I think the general idea is that having to wait for a respec is game-breaking. For you, the wait for a respec token IS what causes them to "lose interest."
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I doubt a "wait" for a respec token is the reason they lose interest or quit. More or less just the immediate answer given. Human beings are very susceptible to environmental influence, it's been proven many times that people will often use what they see or hear to answer a general question with multiple choice answers to it.
heh!...done bug reporting..hell even talked to akro in-game for that...its not really that much of a use though...the answers are what is already known...split the values of zen and ADs (mayb)...done that too...soo yeah...thats y im super annoyed..
i do however realize that theres a place called 'AH' for alternative..but thats 1 of the issues too...not only is it an issue regarding zen and zen/AD exchange topic but also (and this is my thinking not saying about others) the fact that most if the zen market items on AH are waaaaay to overly priced...but still easy to access (way to easy r not i dont know...but...)..thats 1 of the reasons y people go for ADs more now-a-days instead of Zen...hell if u post a comment in zone chat saying my order on exchange is pending for over a week or a month or 2 months (as in my case) well all that people say is..."then y dont u stop trying to get zen and instead keep farming ADs and buy offa the AH...its easier that way"..my response to that: "but thats not how its supposed to be...and though thats true but prices on AH are skyrocketing waaay too much even in comparison to zen market items' prices..."
i mean 1 item on zen in available for 1200zen the same item is 650+k ADs on AH...650+k!!...really...1 zen is currently (horrendously ) worth 500ADs to begin with...u want me to spend days and nights only farming them ADs instead of enjoying the game...i might as well leave and go play Dragon Age Inquisition or Divinity Original Sin or such games where i dont have to do that and they even have better story-lines and game play value as compared to any mmo (obviously every single player game with multiplayer option which is not a mmo always has waay better story-line, graphics and game play value...look at elder scrolls...the 1-5 were praised by every single gamer out there no matter what genre the player played...how many players played, let alone praised elder scrolls 6 mmo?)... >.<
Yes, "people who pay PW real money as part of their gaming are paying customers" is simplistic. It's simplistic because it's a simple concept. It's hard to complicate that one, and your assertion that most people spending real money are using the Zax is both impossible to substantiate and doesn't change anything I've said.
I usually do. Any spare Zen I have left over I usually put up on the market for a few extra diamonds for later.