Most of the posts im reading on here isnt players offering suggestions and solutions to the problems, all im seeing on here are pissed of players that are trying to get players that are playing the AH legitmately banned.
I dont care how someone makes their AD as long as they are not doing anything that is considered as illegal by PWE, or Cryptic.
And i daresay all the ones saying to ban players that are making AD of the AH without exploiting are just mad because they are too late, or cant afford to do it themselves.
If anyone is at fault here it should be PWE and cryptic fault, but instead all i see is players blaming other players because they make AD and they are trying to get them banned.
And i daresay all the ones saying to ban players that are making AD of the AH without exploiting are just mad because they are too late, or cant afford to do it themselves.
Most of the posts im reading on here isnt players offering suggestions and solutions to the problems, all im seeing on here are pissed of players that are trying to get players that are playing the AH legitmately banned.
LOL Have you read this thread? The discussion has revolved around whether or not BOA would work, and what other steps could be taken. And focusing on the banning thing -- that was one or two posts TOTAL, and the guys suggesting that weren't truly up-in-arms serious.
But yeah -- exaggeration works. "MOST" of the posts have been calls for bans... SMH
Hey I love jumping on the "this community sucks" bandwagon, but at least get the reason why you hate it right. I hate this community because we are cheating liars -- even some of us in this thread -- and unrepentant ones at that. I hate that we can't play this game the way it was supposed to be played without trying to screw someone else over. Anybody ever had a quest objective stolen from them when fighting mobs? Or skill nodes? You know who makes bot farms or buys AD from third-party vendors, reinforcing the neverending cycle of spam spam spam spam spam? Players.
Those of us who are legit have to deal with the ones who are not... not directly, mind you, but the fallout from their shady ways falls squarely on us. The ZAX backlog is just one of the many ways that greedy selfish players have made a mess for the folks who aren't breaking the rules. Forgive me for wanting to talk about it, and for wanting to make the exploiting (OOO that WORD!) of the playerbase a little less easy.
Those of us who are legit have to deal with the ones who are not... not directly, mind you, but the fallout from their shady ways falls squarely on us. The ZAX backlog is just one of the many ways that greedy selfish players have made a mess for the folks who aren't breaking the rules. Forgive me for wanting to talk about it, and for wanting to make the exploiting (OOO that WORD!) of the playerbase a little less easy.
Ok first off i would like to point out that your respone essay to my post was irrelevant, and the reason for that is because you and i seem to be on 2 totally different agendas.
The whole point of your message was that "Exploiters, and cheaters should be punished", which by the way i totally agree, and i strongly support that motive, because as a player i do not enjoy putting in alot of hours to only rip-out next to nothing rewards, while exploiters can just come along and make 100x more of what i could never make even if i play this game for 2 years non-stop.
But that wasnt the idea behind my initial post, my point being that players that buy items from the Zen store and sell them on the AH are by no means "Exploiters", or "Cheater" and we should in no manner classify them as such. "Those of us who are legit have to deal with the ones who are not..." you speak as if this guys are playing illegitmately, when in reality they are not, it may be a hard fact for you to accept but it is, what it is.
The problem here is most players dont understand how this thing works, and most of them actually dont want to know, they are only against the fact that their are players who are making AD by doing this, and automatically this kind of things in their books is frown upon.
First of players just dont take out their AD, trade it in for Zen and just go ahead and buy items to sell, and rinse and repeat, if it were easy like that then 95% of the gaming community would be doing it.
If anyone is making AD from doing this i'd say they earn every bit of it, and please keep in mind that these players are not forcing other players to buy their items, impatient players do buy these things because they want to, when i want to buy something i dont care how long i have to wait for Zen to be able to buy what i want, i will always be patient until i get my Zen and buy what i want.
These guys doing this are very patient, they are not beating anyone up to buy from them, they put up their AD on the Zax and they roughly have to wait for about 2 weeks (right now the backlog is around 12 days, results may vary), to get their Zen, and when they get the Zen and buy items to sell you, expect them to sell the items the same price they bought them for? and please no one tell me that buying and selling in this game is illegal, because it not, so they can buy and sell all the want, they are not breaking any Terms of service (where is the sense in that?)
Eventually when the backlog gets to around 5 days these guys will loose business, and they would have to stop doing it, if they can wait for 12 days to get their Zen to buy items to sell, let the ones who cant wait for 12 days to get the Zen buy from them, the system is similar to PWE f2p model, Spend money and progress faster, and if you cant spend money you take the long rout grinding, there is nothing wrong in that!
So until the backlog dies (and it will) these guys are not exploiters or cheaters and in no way or form deserve punishent.
Now if anyone still doesnt get this situation even after i have just explained, they are either in denial, or they are never going to get it!.
Ok first off i would like to point out that your respone essay to my post was irrelevant, and the reason for that is because you and i seem to be on 2 totally different agendas.
The whole point of your message was that "Exploiters, and cheaters should be punished", which by the way i totally agree, and i strongly support that motive, because as a player i do not enjoy putting in alot of hours to only rip-out next to nothing rewards, while exploiters can just come along and make 100x more of what i could never make even if i play this game for 2 years non-stop.
But that wasnt the idea behind my initial post, my point being that players that buy items from the Zen store and sell them on the AH are by no means "Exploiters", or "Cheater" and we should in no manner classify them as such. "Those of us who are legit have to deal with the ones who are not..." you speak as if this guys are playing illegitmately, when in reality they are not, it may be a hard fact for you to accept but it is, what it is.
The problem here is most players dont understand how this thing works, and most of them actually dont want to know, they are only against the fact that their are players who are making AD by doing this, and automatically this kind of things in their books is frown upon.
First of players just dont take out their AD, trade it in for Zen and just go ahead and buy items to sell, and rinse and repeat, if it were easy like that then 95% of the gaming community would be doing it.
If anyone is making AD from doing this i'd say they earn every bit of it, and please keep in mind that these players are not forcing other players to buy their items, impatient players do buy these things because they want to, when i want to buy something i dont care how long i have to wait for Zen to be able to buy what i want, i will always be patient until i get my Zen and buy what i want.
These guys doing this are very patient, they are not beating anyone up to buy from them, they put up their AD on the Zax and they roughly have to wait for about 2 weeks (right now the backlog is around 12 days, results may vary), to get their Zen, and when they get the Zen and buy items to sell you, expect them to sell the items the same price they bought them for? and please no one tell me that buying and selling in this game is illegal, because it not, so they can buy and sell all the want, they are not breaking any Terms of service (where is the sense in that?)
Eventually when the backlog gets to around 5 days these guys will loose business, and they would have to stop doing it, if they can wait for 12 days to get their Zen to buy items to sell, let the ones who cant wait for 12 days to get the Zen buy from them, the system is similar to PWE f2p model, Spend money and progress faster, and if you cant spend money you take the long rout grinding, there is nothing wrong in that!
So until the backlog dies (and it will) these guys are not exploiters or cheaters and in no way or form deserve punishent.
Now if anyone still doesnt get this situation even after i have just explained, they are either in denial, or they are never going to get it!.
No you don't get our point that the cap is a game system and that we consider any circumvention where you earn more than 500:1 an exploit going by strict definitions of the term.
No you don't get our point that the cap is a game system and that we consider any circumvention where you earn more than 500:1 an exploit going by strict definitions of the term.
by your logic the players that sell those Legendaries mounts are exploiters of the economy aswell, because they are selling those mounts for 10mill+, and how much does a key cost? Try harder, that doesnt justify anything!
and who cares what you considered as an exploit or not? last time i checked PWE, and Cryptic were the voice of the game.
You made a mistake of thinking that what you think is relevant.
by your logic the players that sell those Legendaries mounts are exploiters of the economy aswell, because they are selling those mounts for 10mill+, and how much does a key cost? Try harder, that doesnt justify anything!
and who cares what you considered as an exploit or not? last time i checked PWE, and Cryptic were the voice of the game.
You made a mistake of thinking that what you think is relevant.
It's as relevant as your opinion, and I'm free by forum rules to state that I think it would be an improvement to the game as long as I present it in an acceptable way.
Most of the posts im reading on here isnt players offering suggestions and solutions to the problems, all im seeing on here are pissed of players that are trying to get players that are playing the AH legitmately banned.
With the exception of one person I didn't see anyone ask for people to be banned. Some are asking for items bought in the Zen store to be made account bound though.
The thing you don't get is, people need zen to buy stuff. So even if they don't get zen, they still can get those things from AH and are happy. And if the price is higher that way... people still find it a good deal, otherwise they would not buy anything.
Here is the thing...
Having the Zen store stuff in the AH removes many of the AD buyers from the exchange. They buy the stuff at a discount (sales & coupons) then sell it for regular price or more. You get more AD using the AH than the exchange. This is catching on. So fewer and fewer people buy AD from the exchange. That *hurts* those using the exchange.
People who would otherwise be buying AD on the exchange are not. Yes, people who buy Zen items from the AH would need to use the exchange too. But because of the 500/1 limit it would more than balance out. The people buying Zen would need less (they'd have access to the same discounts the flippers are using). This would also mean all people buying AD need to use the exchange (instead of AH). At the exchange rate instead of a discount.
Also note that the 'flippers' are likely not the ones buying Zen with cash and inserting it into the economy. If they were they wouldn't be clogging up the exchange with offers to buy Zen. Because no one wants to wait a month for their money (Zen) unless they have to.
And I still stand by what I've said elsewhere. I don't think the 'flippers' are the only source of the backlog. They probably aren't even the main one. But they are a contributing factor, its silly to think otherwise. I will say that cryptic seems to already be taking less obvious steps to fight it. With stuff like keys made bound and such.
With the exception of one person I didn't see anyone ask for people to be banned. Some are asking for items bought in the Zen store to be made account bound though.
Here is the thing...
Having the Zen store stuff in the AH removes many of the AD buyers from the exchange. They buy the stuff at a discount (sales & coupons) then sell it for regular price or more. You get more AD using the AH than the exchange. This is catching on. So fewer and fewer people buy AD from the exchange. That *hurts* those using the exchange.
People who would otherwise be buying AD on the exchange are not. Yes, people who buy Zen items from the AH would need to use the exchange too. But because of the 500/1 limit it would more than balance out. The people buying Zen would need less (they'd have access to the same discounts the flippers are using). This would also mean all people buying AD need to use the exchange (instead of AH). At the exchange rate instead of a discount.
Also note that the 'flippers' are likely not the ones buying Zen with cash and inserting it into the economy. If they were they wouldn't be clogging up the exchange with offers to buy Zen. Because no one wants to wait a month for their money (Zen) unless they have to.
And I still stand by what I've said elsewhere. I don't think the 'flippers' are the only source of the backlog. They probably aren't even the main one. But they are a contributing factor, its silly to think otherwise. I will say that cryptic seems to already be taking less obvious steps to fight it. With stuff like keys made bound and such.
I would love to get into a debate but unfortunatly my limited time on here doesnt doesnt afford me the priviledge.
So let me ask you a simple but straight forward question, and i would greatly appreciate if you would give me a straight answer.
Based on PWE Terms of service, Is buying and selling items from the Zen market to the AH illegal or by any means not advise?
That doesn't make any sense. It's a form of currency manipulation based on a fixed exchange rate, yes, and such things tend to have very negative consequences, in the real world economies collapse or currencies eventually are made to float. However, you'd have to use a loose definition of the term "exploit", which in strict terms refers to using in-game bugs to achieve unintended results, to make that fit this case.
And no one has ever signed any contracts or the like stating that the value of items purchased by Zen shall be capped at 500 AD per Zen or something. Buying low and selling high is generally considered a perfectly legitimate form of commerce.
The underlying problem is really the devaluation of AD. Which could have arisen because of exploits, a lack of adequate options to spend AD or some other combination. It's clear that they are working to gradually adjust that now, though, with the recent reductions of WB costs, reinforcement kits costing AD to make and people now having incentives to get more AD to buy refinement materials for belts and weapons. And the key sales has driven profit margins down, which should also help a bit.
Well said my good sir! you just saved me the time of trying to explain things to him again.
I imagine the reason for the 500 ad cap is so that exploiters and the ad rich can't raise the cap to limits where the free player can't afford and can have more control over the market. Having a high cost in the AH you have the choice of buying it at that price or putting up an offer on the exchange. Arguing over 'exploitation' of earning more than the exchange cap is like saying people who sell limited/rare comics or action figures for more than their original cost should go to jail. It just means you have your moralities out of whack.
I imagine the reason for the 500 ad cap is so that exploiters and the ad rich can't raise the cap to limits where the free player can't afford and can have more control over the market. Having a high cost in the AH you have the choice of buying it at that price or putting up an offer on the exchange. Arguing over 'exploitation' of earning more than the exchange cap is like saying people who sell limited/rare comics or action figures for more than their original cost should go to jail. It just means you have your moralities out of whack.
See but that is exactly what happened except since a cap was there a backlog was created. They have a vested interest in keeping the backlog there with their market control so that they can keep selling items above the cap.
See but that is exactly what happened except since a cap was there a backlog was created. They have a vested interest in keeping the backlog there with their market control so that they can keep selling items above the cap.
The huge backlog seemed to be caused by ad exploiters. If others were unable to sell for a profit, then people would have to wait weeks to be able to buy zen store items. You either have to decide to pay the price of getting it now or wait for the backlog to clear now that the exploit has finally been patched out. The same goes with new items such as artifact belts. Pay the price to get it now, or wait it out and get better value. Assuming the exploited AD was the cause, that means the whole situation was cryptics fault and they can't blame people for taking advantage of it. Apart from the people who did exploit, of course you can blame those too. But one is an agreeable trade for ones benefit, the other provides nothing to players or the game and only takes out of thin air.
Anyway, Cryptic aren't big on morals. If they were people wouldn't have been able to do so many exploits since the start of the game and it wouldn't be practically the norm (to a lesser degree than the big time exploiters such as FC runners).
Arguing over 'exploitation' of earning more than the exchange cap is like saying people who sell limited/rare comics or action figures for more than their original cost should go to jail. It just means you have your moralities out of whack.
Hey if the guys doing that with the comics were literally <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the ENTIRE US economy up, and making it so it took 2 weeks to get a roll of toilet paper, then yeah... hold their feet to the fire at least a little bit -- yeesh.
Look, I know some of you guys "play the market"... pretty much some of you have outright announced it. Maybe even some of you have purposefully bought zen items/etc. with recycled AD zen specifically to sell on the AH while bypassing the 500:1 cap purely out of trying to get the most out of what you see as acceptable and allowed behavior.
You're right.
It IS okay, and all but condoned openly by the devs of this game, because they have not made everything BOP or taken the liberty to set price controls on the AH, or a couple of other little steps they could take if they wanted to. They haven't done it.
So go on and keep milking that cow... what's the worst that could happen? It's not like a hundred other guys aren't doing the exact same thing and fleecing all the rubes that still pay for AD with zen. I don't blame you specifically for this mess not getting cleaned up. You are just doing what you are able to do, which is what any human being does.
The huge backlog seemed to be caused by ad exploiters. If others were unable to sell for a profit, then people would have to wait weeks to be able to buy zen store items.
As i said ealier, all they care about is that players are benifiting and therefor it is unacceptable.
You either have to decide to pay the price of getting it now or wait for the backlog to clear now that the exploit has finally been patched out. The same goes with new items such as artifact belts. Pay the price to get it now, or wait it out and get better value.
that what i said.
if they can wait for 12 days to get their Zen to buy items to sell, let the ones who cant wait for 12 days to get the Zen buy from them, the system is similar to PWE f2p model, Spend money and progress faster, and if you cant spend money you take the long rout grinding, there is nothing wrong in that!
Agreed. It is simple logic, IF you are fully accepting that having a 2 week backlog (or any backlog, I suppose) is fine and dandy, and having the exchange rate LOCKED at 500:1 is completely acceptable to you.
We will ignore the fact that the people who bought in early to this... mechanism (I'll avoid the E-word for now)... are able to unfairly Lord it over people who are new -- assuming these longtime players set themselves up to do so.
Let's also ignore the fact that these longtime players had the benefit of a healthy ZAX, no backlog, and didnt have to pay an arm and a leg to advance. For example, I remember when coal wards were 80k. YEAH!!!! 80 (not 800) -- 80 thousand!
I would love to get into a debate but unfortunatly my limited time on here doesnt doesnt afford me the priviledge.
So let me ask you a simple but straight forward question, and i would greatly appreciate if you would give me a straight answer.
Based on PWE Terms of service, Is buying and selling items from the Zen market to the AH illegal or by any means not advise?
In my opinion, no its not illegal. I never called it an exploit. And I don't think it is. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed though. In the end, its not my opinion that matters anyway.
The underlying problem is really the devaluation of AD. Which could have arisen because of exploits, a lack of adequate options to spend AD or some other combination. It's clear that they are working to gradually adjust that now, though, with the recent reductions of WB costs, reinforcement kits costing AD to make and people now having incentives to get more AD to buy refinement materials for belts and weapons. And the key sales has driven profit margins down, which should also help a bit.
Devaluation of AD is also the reason for the people selling on the AH. They want more than 500AD for their Zen. The AH is a way around that limit. Close that hole and they go back to the exchange. Forcing AD back to at least a 500/1 value. I agree fully that there are other issues. And I've said I think flippers are not even be the biggest. Cryptic is working on the others. Its up to them to decide if this one needs to be fixed as well. Only they have access to the numbers.
The only reason I got into this discussion was because some people wrote like it wasn't an issue at all. I disagree on that. But I'm not saying its a super-important major issue that has to be fixed right away or anything. I'm just saying its contributing to the backlog, making it worse.
This is a free to play game, nothing in the zen store is required to play, if you want something from it you have 2 choices. 1)You put an offer to buy zen from the zen exchange with astral diamonds.(a very popular options with the younger players) or 2) buy zen using some real life currency . Nothing is broken really. As for the cap I would love to see it raised but not my decision.
In my opinion, no its not illegal. I never called it an exploit. And I don't think it is. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed though. In the end, its not my opinion that matters anyway.
Problem solved.
There is nothing to changed, yeah there was something wrong with the Zax but PWE has corrected that issue (The AD exploiters), they have closed the Gap, im not saying it fool proof but it doing it job atm.
All that remains now is to just sit and watch the economy go back to normal, it takes time, but it will go down, we have all seen evidence.
All that can be done now is to wait, they are not going to make everything in the Zen store BOP, or BOA because of a few pissed of players that think it unacceptable to make any kind of profit say so.
It called supply and demand, the so called "Flippers" are only flipping things for the convienience of those that cant bare the waiting. they didnt mess up the backlog, Exploiters did, without the exploiters the economy wouldnt have been tampered with.
Wake up, and put blame where blame is due.
I'll ignore the personal stuff you wrote, because who cares, but really trying to paint yourself <ahem> I mean the "flippers" as some kind of magnaminous force for good "We do it for the PEOPLE! For their CONVENIENCE!" when it is so blatantly obvious they are in it for themselves because they have leverage that others don't... yeah, I must have no idea about anything. That's not taking advantage to turn a quick and tidy profit -- nossir!
Look, I have said several times that it is not the ZAX loopers who are directly responsible for how things are right now. No one is claiming that they are the ones specifically who set the ZAX on fire... but they are dang sure whistling Dixie while warming their hands.
I do not find a 2 week wait acceptable on the ZAX. I do not accept that it is good to have a backlog. I do not think the exchange rate being locked at 500:1 for the foreseeable future is a good thing. There are a LOT of people who agree with me. Apparently you do not.
Personally, I think Cryptic was trying to find the problem months ago. They saw how the ZAX was trending with the backlog increasing daily. And they tried to stem the tide. At first, it was changing the binding on keys, then it was the probation system. I think the whole exploit blindsided them. They were trying to fix the problem, totally unaware of what the true problem was.
Once the exploit went public, they knew the real problem, and plugged the leak. From that very day, the backlog has steadily decreased. It took months to get to the point its at. It will likewise take time to return to normal. Anything more that Cryptic could do to speed this up, will only server to tip everything back out of whack.
I agree that they are unlikely to make everything from the cash shop BOA or whatever. These guys are definitely the "sit and wait" types.
But MAAAAAAN... it is a LONNNG way back to how it used to be. There are plenty of players in the game now who have never had a ZAX that wasn't backlogged all to hell. I'm wondering where exactly this whole mess will end up settling. Will we get back to a 1 day wait? Less?
Tough call, at this point. The devs may have to make a couple more minor adjustments.
Personally, I think Cryptic was trying to find the problem months ago. They saw how the ZAX was trending with the backlog increasing daily. And they tried to stem the tide. At first, it was changing the binding on keys, then it was the probation system. I think the whole exploit blindsided them. They were trying to fix the problem, totally unaware of what the true problem was.
Once the exploit went public, they knew the real problem, and plugged the leak. From that very day, the backlog has steadily decreased. It took months to get to the point its at. It will likewise take time to return to normal. Anything more that Cryptic could do to speed this up, will only server to tip everything back out of whack.
Your mistake is in thinking that Cryptic considers it a problem. The ZAX backlog means that, unless you are patient, access to the zen store items has been limited to people who will give them money. I do not think it is an outrageous claim to say that businesses want people to spend money on them. How, as a business, is it a problem that there is a ZAX backlog for Cryptic?
How, as a business, is it a problem that there is a ZAX backlog for Cryptic?
It's kinda been addressed here already, but this is page 18 LOL I don't blame you for not reading all the way through this beast.
The short version of the answer is: a healthier game environment caters to both the f2p AND paying customers. You have to have both in this kind of business model, because the paying ppl need folks to play with (or dominate completely in PVP lol). If this was a subscription based business, it wouldn't be such an issue with much of anything because Cryptic would have their money already.
Interestingly, it has been proven that f2p microtransaction-style games actually make MORE than the subscription games as long as they can cater their service properly. The money flows in just fine, as much of the income is from $10 bucks here and there casuals. It is an urban legend of sorts that has sprung up that the idea of "super-whales" who spend $1000s are the bulk of the income for games like this title. Yes, there are players that do this, but in terms of the big picture, they are very minor income for the company.
So Cryptic's ultimate aim to maximize profit is to make a fun-as-heck game that appeals to casuals, and entice these people (which vastly outnumber die-hard gamers) to spend a little money for this or that.
PS Might I remind you that this game will be launched for consoles soon? That is going to be a major boost for this company.
It's kinda been addressed here already, but this is page 18 LOL I don't blame you for not reading all the way through this beast.
The short version of the answer is: a healthier game environment caters to both the f2p AND paying customers. You have to have both in this kind of business model, because the paying ppl need folks to play with (or dominate completely in PVP lol). If this was a subscription based business, it wouldn't be such an issue with much of anything because Cryptic would have their money already.
Interestingly, it has been proven that f2p microtransaction-style games actually make MORE than the subscription games as long as they can cater their service properly. The money flows in just fine, as much of the income is from $10 bucks here and there casuals. It is an urban legend of sorts that has sprung up that the idea of "super-whales" who spend $1000s are the bulk of the income for games like this title. Yes, there are players that do this, but in terms of the big picture, they are very minor income for the company.
So Cryptic's ultimate aim to maximize profit is to make a fun-as-heck game that appeals to casuals, and entice these people (which vastly outnumber die-hard gamers) to spend a little money for this or that.
PS Might I remind you that this game will be launched for consoles soon? That is going to be a major boost for this company.
Well look I know that the community is the primary draw for an MMO. I have some doubts as to if PWE/ Cryptic is also aware of this. Most of their actions up to this time point to the opposite. The bondpocalapse does not encourage F2P rather it puts a premium on BoP Zen gear that has become innaccessable via the AH. In the same span there have been a lot of 'if you spend' promos. You, me, and the gaming community in general may be aware of this dynamic but PWE seems oblivious to it. As many who play a 100$ race might be able to attest to.....
Your mistake is in thinking that Cryptic considers it a problem. The ZAX backlog means that, unless you are patient, access to the zen store items has been limited to people who will give them money. I do not think it is an outrageous claim to say that businesses want people to spend money on them. How, as a business, is it a problem that there is a ZAX backlog for Cryptic?
Considering that they have not let their other games market run loose like this, says otherwise. The evidence is there, its clear Cryptic wasnt happy with the situation simply because of the many changes they implemented.
Comments
I dont care how someone makes their AD as long as they are not doing anything that is considered as illegal by PWE, or Cryptic.
And i daresay all the ones saying to ban players that are making AD of the AH without exploiting are just mad because they are too late, or cant afford to do it themselves.
If anyone is at fault here it should be PWE and cryptic fault, but instead all i see is players blaming other players because they make AD and they are trying to get them banned.
Amazing community!
My thought exactly.
LOL Have you read this thread? The discussion has revolved around whether or not BOA would work, and what other steps could be taken. And focusing on the banning thing -- that was one or two posts TOTAL, and the guys suggesting that weren't truly up-in-arms serious.
But yeah -- exaggeration works. "MOST" of the posts have been calls for bans... SMH
Hey I love jumping on the "this community sucks" bandwagon, but at least get the reason why you hate it right. I hate this community because we are cheating liars -- even some of us in this thread -- and unrepentant ones at that. I hate that we can't play this game the way it was supposed to be played without trying to screw someone else over. Anybody ever had a quest objective stolen from them when fighting mobs? Or skill nodes? You know who makes bot farms or buys AD from third-party vendors, reinforcing the neverending cycle of spam spam spam spam spam? Players.
Those of us who are legit have to deal with the ones who are not... not directly, mind you, but the fallout from their shady ways falls squarely on us. The ZAX backlog is just one of the many ways that greedy selfish players have made a mess for the folks who aren't breaking the rules. Forgive me for wanting to talk about it, and for wanting to make the exploiting (OOO that WORD!) of the playerbase a little less easy.
Ok first off i would like to point out that your respone essay to my post was irrelevant, and the reason for that is because you and i seem to be on 2 totally different agendas.
The whole point of your message was that "Exploiters, and cheaters should be punished", which by the way i totally agree, and i strongly support that motive, because as a player i do not enjoy putting in alot of hours to only rip-out next to nothing rewards, while exploiters can just come along and make 100x more of what i could never make even if i play this game for 2 years non-stop.
But that wasnt the idea behind my initial post, my point being that players that buy items from the Zen store and sell them on the AH are by no means "Exploiters", or "Cheater" and we should in no manner classify them as such. "Those of us who are legit have to deal with the ones who are not..." you speak as if this guys are playing illegitmately, when in reality they are not, it may be a hard fact for you to accept but it is, what it is.
The problem here is most players dont understand how this thing works, and most of them actually dont want to know, they are only against the fact that their are players who are making AD by doing this, and automatically this kind of things in their books is frown upon.
First of players just dont take out their AD, trade it in for Zen and just go ahead and buy items to sell, and rinse and repeat, if it were easy like that then 95% of the gaming community would be doing it.
If anyone is making AD from doing this i'd say they earn every bit of it, and please keep in mind that these players are not forcing other players to buy their items, impatient players do buy these things because they want to, when i want to buy something i dont care how long i have to wait for Zen to be able to buy what i want, i will always be patient until i get my Zen and buy what i want.
These guys doing this are very patient, they are not beating anyone up to buy from them, they put up their AD on the Zax and they roughly have to wait for about 2 weeks (right now the backlog is around 12 days, results may vary), to get their Zen, and when they get the Zen and buy items to sell you, expect them to sell the items the same price they bought them for? and please no one tell me that buying and selling in this game is illegal, because it not, so they can buy and sell all the want, they are not breaking any Terms of service (where is the sense in that?)
Eventually when the backlog gets to around 5 days these guys will loose business, and they would have to stop doing it, if they can wait for 12 days to get their Zen to buy items to sell, let the ones who cant wait for 12 days to get the Zen buy from them, the system is similar to PWE f2p model, Spend money and progress faster, and if you cant spend money you take the long rout grinding, there is nothing wrong in that!
So until the backlog dies (and it will) these guys are not exploiters or cheaters and in no way or form deserve punishent.
Now if anyone still doesnt get this situation even after i have just explained, they are either in denial, or they are never going to get it!.
by your logic the players that sell those Legendaries mounts are exploiters of the economy aswell, because they are selling those mounts for 10mill+, and how much does a key cost? Try harder, that doesnt justify anything!
and who cares what you considered as an exploit or not? last time i checked PWE, and Cryptic were the voice of the game.
You made a mistake of thinking that what you think is relevant.
It's as relevant as your opinion, and I'm free by forum rules to state that I think it would be an improvement to the game as long as I present it in an acceptable way.
With the exception of one person I didn't see anyone ask for people to be banned. Some are asking for items bought in the Zen store to be made account bound though.
Here is the thing...
Having the Zen store stuff in the AH removes many of the AD buyers from the exchange. They buy the stuff at a discount (sales & coupons) then sell it for regular price or more. You get more AD using the AH than the exchange. This is catching on. So fewer and fewer people buy AD from the exchange. That *hurts* those using the exchange.
People who would otherwise be buying AD on the exchange are not. Yes, people who buy Zen items from the AH would need to use the exchange too. But because of the 500/1 limit it would more than balance out. The people buying Zen would need less (they'd have access to the same discounts the flippers are using). This would also mean all people buying AD need to use the exchange (instead of AH). At the exchange rate instead of a discount.
Also note that the 'flippers' are likely not the ones buying Zen with cash and inserting it into the economy. If they were they wouldn't be clogging up the exchange with offers to buy Zen. Because no one wants to wait a month for their money (Zen) unless they have to.
And I still stand by what I've said elsewhere. I don't think the 'flippers' are the only source of the backlog. They probably aren't even the main one. But they are a contributing factor, its silly to think otherwise. I will say that cryptic seems to already be taking less obvious steps to fight it. With stuff like keys made bound and such.
I would love to get into a debate but unfortunatly my limited time on here doesnt doesnt afford me the priviledge.
So let me ask you a simple but straight forward question, and i would greatly appreciate if you would give me a straight answer.
Based on PWE Terms of service, Is buying and selling items from the Zen market to the AH illegal or by any means not advise?
Well said my good sir! you just saved me the time of trying to explain things to him again.
See but that is exactly what happened except since a cap was there a backlog was created. They have a vested interest in keeping the backlog there with their market control so that they can keep selling items above the cap.
The huge backlog seemed to be caused by ad exploiters. If others were unable to sell for a profit, then people would have to wait weeks to be able to buy zen store items. You either have to decide to pay the price of getting it now or wait for the backlog to clear now that the exploit has finally been patched out. The same goes with new items such as artifact belts. Pay the price to get it now, or wait it out and get better value. Assuming the exploited AD was the cause, that means the whole situation was cryptics fault and they can't blame people for taking advantage of it. Apart from the people who did exploit, of course you can blame those too. But one is an agreeable trade for ones benefit, the other provides nothing to players or the game and only takes out of thin air.
Anyway, Cryptic aren't big on morals. If they were people wouldn't have been able to do so many exploits since the start of the game and it wouldn't be practically the norm (to a lesser degree than the big time exploiters such as FC runners).
Hey if the guys doing that with the comics were literally <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the ENTIRE US economy up, and making it so it took 2 weeks to get a roll of toilet paper, then yeah... hold their feet to the fire at least a little bit -- yeesh.
Look, I know some of you guys "play the market"... pretty much some of you have outright announced it. Maybe even some of you have purposefully bought zen items/etc. with recycled AD zen specifically to sell on the AH while bypassing the 500:1 cap purely out of trying to get the most out of what you see as acceptable and allowed behavior.
You're right.
It IS okay, and all but condoned openly by the devs of this game, because they have not made everything BOP or taken the liberty to set price controls on the AH, or a couple of other little steps they could take if they wanted to. They haven't done it.
So go on and keep milking that cow... what's the worst that could happen? It's not like a hundred other guys aren't doing the exact same thing and fleecing all the rubes that still pay for AD with zen. I don't blame you specifically for this mess not getting cleaned up. You are just doing what you are able to do, which is what any human being does.
Simple logic.
Agreed. It is simple logic, IF you are fully accepting that having a 2 week backlog (or any backlog, I suppose) is fine and dandy, and having the exchange rate LOCKED at 500:1 is completely acceptable to you.
We will ignore the fact that the people who bought in early to this... mechanism (I'll avoid the E-word for now)... are able to unfairly Lord it over people who are new -- assuming these longtime players set themselves up to do so.
Let's also ignore the fact that these longtime players had the benefit of a healthy ZAX, no backlog, and didnt have to pay an arm and a leg to advance. For example, I remember when coal wards were 80k. YEAH!!!! 80 (not 800) -- 80 thousand!
In my opinion, no its not illegal. I never called it an exploit. And I don't think it is. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed though. In the end, its not my opinion that matters anyway.
Devaluation of AD is also the reason for the people selling on the AH. They want more than 500AD for their Zen. The AH is a way around that limit. Close that hole and they go back to the exchange. Forcing AD back to at least a 500/1 value. I agree fully that there are other issues. And I've said I think flippers are not even be the biggest. Cryptic is working on the others. Its up to them to decide if this one needs to be fixed as well. Only they have access to the numbers.
The only reason I got into this discussion was because some people wrote like it wasn't an issue at all. I disagree on that. But I'm not saying its a super-important major issue that has to be fixed right away or anything. I'm just saying its contributing to the backlog, making it worse.
With that, I'm out.
Problem solved.
There is nothing to changed, yeah there was something wrong with the Zax but PWE has corrected that issue (The AD exploiters), they have closed the Gap, im not saying it fool proof but it doing it job atm.
All that remains now is to just sit and watch the economy go back to normal, it takes time, but it will go down, we have all seen evidence.
All that can be done now is to wait, they are not going to make everything in the Zen store BOP, or BOA because of a few pissed of players that think it unacceptable to make any kind of profit say so.
I'll ignore the personal stuff you wrote, because who cares, but really trying to paint yourself <ahem> I mean the "flippers" as some kind of magnaminous force for good "We do it for the PEOPLE! For their CONVENIENCE!" when it is so blatantly obvious they are in it for themselves because they have leverage that others don't... yeah, I must have no idea about anything. That's not taking advantage to turn a quick and tidy profit -- nossir!
Look, I have said several times that it is not the ZAX loopers who are directly responsible for how things are right now. No one is claiming that they are the ones specifically who set the ZAX on fire... but they are dang sure whistling Dixie while warming their hands.
I do not find a 2 week wait acceptable on the ZAX. I do not accept that it is good to have a backlog. I do not think the exchange rate being locked at 500:1 for the foreseeable future is a good thing. There are a LOT of people who agree with me. Apparently you do not.
Okay then.
Once the exploit went public, they knew the real problem, and plugged the leak. From that very day, the backlog has steadily decreased. It took months to get to the point its at. It will likewise take time to return to normal. Anything more that Cryptic could do to speed this up, will only server to tip everything back out of whack.
But MAAAAAAN... it is a LONNNG way back to how it used to be. There are plenty of players in the game now who have never had a ZAX that wasn't backlogged all to hell. I'm wondering where exactly this whole mess will end up settling. Will we get back to a 1 day wait? Less?
Tough call, at this point. The devs may have to make a couple more minor adjustments.
Your mistake is in thinking that Cryptic considers it a problem. The ZAX backlog means that, unless you are patient, access to the zen store items has been limited to people who will give them money. I do not think it is an outrageous claim to say that businesses want people to spend money on them. How, as a business, is it a problem that there is a ZAX backlog for Cryptic?
It's kinda been addressed here already, but this is page 18 LOL I don't blame you for not reading all the way through this beast.
The short version of the answer is: a healthier game environment caters to both the f2p AND paying customers. You have to have both in this kind of business model, because the paying ppl need folks to play with (or dominate completely in PVP lol). If this was a subscription based business, it wouldn't be such an issue with much of anything because Cryptic would have their money already.
Interestingly, it has been proven that f2p microtransaction-style games actually make MORE than the subscription games as long as they can cater their service properly. The money flows in just fine, as much of the income is from $10 bucks here and there casuals. It is an urban legend of sorts that has sprung up that the idea of "super-whales" who spend $1000s are the bulk of the income for games like this title. Yes, there are players that do this, but in terms of the big picture, they are very minor income for the company.
So Cryptic's ultimate aim to maximize profit is to make a fun-as-heck game that appeals to casuals, and entice these people (which vastly outnumber die-hard gamers) to spend a little money for this or that.
PS Might I remind you that this game will be launched for consoles soon? That is going to be a major boost for this company.
Well look I know that the community is the primary draw for an MMO. I have some doubts as to if PWE/ Cryptic is also aware of this. Most of their actions up to this time point to the opposite. The bondpocalapse does not encourage F2P rather it puts a premium on BoP Zen gear that has become innaccessable via the AH. In the same span there have been a lot of 'if you spend' promos. You, me, and the gaming community in general may be aware of this dynamic but PWE seems oblivious to it. As many who play a 100$ race might be able to attest to.....
Considering that they have not let their other games market run loose like this, says otherwise. The evidence is there, its clear Cryptic wasnt happy with the situation simply because of the many changes they implemented.