No it isn't an outcome of the backlog. Even when there was no backlog there were still zen items on the AH for a profit.
Just like you see stuff from the WB on sale in AH for a small markup. Now that we don't see coal wards on the market for 800+k anymore the backlog is falling. I believe the cause of the backlog was all that exploited AD being put into the exchange to get zen to buy ward/items to sell on AH to get zen to buy items to sell on AH to get zen to get items to sell on AH. The same 10 people always having coal wards or pres wards on the market kind of supports that hypothesis.
If the cause of the high priced AH zen shop items was the backlog, then they would still be at 8-900 k a coal ward instead of the 570 k or so they are at now. There is still close to a two week wait for AD>Zen after all.
Yes... you were selling zen items on AH before, but it was not a problem then, since the price wasn't that much different. Basically, it wasn't that much good way to make profit.
Now after the backlog was created, you could sell things for so much more....
And of course the exploit played a major role. Now that it is gone, backlog is decreasing, and AH prices also, just give it some time.
We won't see 200k coals on AH anymore, but well... Cryptic obviously wanted it more expensive.
And considering it's a 100% success rate, I don't think that is a real problem. I'm perfectly ok with them being 500k. If you want perfection, you should have to pay for it. It's not something that should be easily obtainable.
All they have done is alienated their player base. But that's ok, I bought like 20 at the time they were 100 or 200k. If everyone else is fine with being screwed, that's their problem. $10 per ward is not a fair price but I'm not the one that has to pay it.
All they have done is alienated their player base. But that's ok, I bought like 20 at the time they were 100 or 200k. If everyone else is fine with being screwed, that's their problem. $10 per ward is not a fair price but I'm not the one that has to pay it.
^^^
If you are expected to play multiple characters then it shouldn't cost hundreds of dollars to upgrade each enchantment. Or months of grinding for each one. Sorry , but this game doesn't have years of gameplay content.
I can't understand why some people think binding zen items could do any good. If anything, it would harm the economy and all you need is a bit imagination to understand that.
If this would happen, people who use to buy those items and resell on AH, would.... not buy it anymore. Remember that things like profession packs and, most of all, lockboxes, have random content, and that's why you keep for yourself only (usually small) part of it and sell the rest. If you can't sell anything, the price suddenly becomes ridiculous.
Which means less zen items bought = Cryptic sells less zen.
Completely disagree here. We don't even know if the majority of sellers on the AH are the ones spending the money anyway. The people buying zen items to resell are just trying to make a hefty profit. Trying to get more AD on the AH than they can on the exchange. Not saying that is a bad thing. But making the items they are selling account bound would force them to get their AD from the exchange.
As someone else pointed out: people doing this only add to the exchange backlog. They make their AD from the AH so they never buy it from the Exchange. Instead they constantly buy massive amounts of Zen every time they flip. I would guess that many of them aren't even spending any real money of their own. Just consuming a large chunk of the zen from people that do.
I still don't know if making stuff account bound is the right call though. It would tick off a lot of people. And we can't see all the data that Cryptic has. I can certainly see why some would think its the right move though.
All they have done is alienated their player base. But that's ok, I bought like 20 at the time they were 100 or 200k. If everyone else is fine with being screwed, that's their problem. $10 per ward is not a fair price but I'm not the one that has to pay it.
I agree, $10 per ward is not a fair price. Then again, neither is $20 for 1 million AD the way prices are today in the AH.
We don't even know if the majority of sellers on the AH are the ones spending the money anyway.
Well that is actually irrelevant. The point is, making things BoP would increase the backlog.
But Cryptic will never do it, because they want to sell zen.
So you say people get zen via zax and flip? Yes, some do so, but 1.still all the zen there is in the game had to be purchased with real money, ergo: there are spenders, and they inject enough zen into the system so everyone can get zen, even if you need to wait currently, and 2. flipping is not that bad. it was totally harmless when we hadn't backlog, and since it is decreasing, soon the problem will cure itself without any moves from Cryptic.
Actually, flipping helps, since the more you use AH, the more AD is destroyed.
But making the items they are selling account bound would force them to get their AD from the exchange.
The thing is that using the auction house works similar to the exchange. You're using zen to exchange for someone else's ad at a different rate and removing 10% from the economy. Making them bound doesn't help at all. Instead of the one person selling their zen for ad, the people wanting the zen will probably be getting it from multiple people. The people still want their zen items and will have to use the exchange instead of the ones they bought it from in the AH. The only reduction would be if people wanted it now and so buy it with real money instead.
Well that is actually irrelevant. The point is, making things BoP would increase the backlog.
It was relevant to the post I was responding to. Saying players would quit buying Zen. If most of the people selling on the AH aren't buying the Zen with cash in the first place, then it would have little affect. If majority of spenders are just using the items they buy... then they would be unaffected by the switch to account bound. We don't have the actual numbers though. Only Cryptic would. Hopefully are they keeping up with that kind of thing.
So you say people get zen via zax and flip? Yes, some do so, but 1.still all the zen there is in the game had to be purchased with real money, ergo: there are spenders, and they inject enough zen into the system so everyone can get zen, even if you need to wait currently, and 2. flipping is not that bad. it was totally harmless when we hadn't backlog, and since it is decreasing, soon the problem will cure itself without any moves from Cryptic.
Actually, flipping helps, since the more you use AH, the more AD is destroyed.
No. It doesn't help. Because the Zen the flippers get a hold of never gets back into the exchange. They eliminate way more Zen from the economy than they do AD. The 10% the AH destroys is nothing compared to the Zen that is drained when they buy stuff just to sell.
The thing is that using the auction house works similar to the exchange. You're using zen to exchange for someone else's ad at a different rate and removing 10% from the economy. Making them bound doesn't help at all. Instead of the one person selling their zen for ad, the people wanting the zen will probably be getting it from multiple people. The people still want their zen items and will have to use the exchange instead of the ones they bought it from in the AH. The only reduction would be if people wanted it now and so buy it with real money instead.
Eh? Look the problem is the backlog. The backlog helps flippers profit because they can sell stuff for more than zen-store price. Also remember many of the things in the AH aren't full Zen value in the fist place. They were bought at reduced prices through a sale or coupons. Flippers add to the backlog by keeping zen out of it. They profit from it, they have no reason to want it gone. But if it is more zen flows into the exchange. The more zen that flows into the exchange then the faster it rotates offers through. Even if the backlog isn't eliminated the average player gets their Zen offer through faster.
Again. We don't have the numbers. Only Cryptic does. So we can't say for sure if this would be a good idea or not. Imo *IF* most of the people flipping are not buying their Zen themselves, then account bound might be a good idea. However if many of the flippers are spending their own cash for Zen, then it could obviously hurt Cryptic's Zen sales. Either way hopefully Cryptic is keeping up with what people who actually pay cash for Zen are buying with it. Remember I'm not saying this is the whole problem either. There are several factors adding to the backlog. Just saying this is one of them.
The thing you don't get is, people need zen to buy stuff. So even if they don't get zen, they still can get those things from AH and are happy. And if the price is higher that way... people still find it a good deal, otherwise they would not buy anything.
Look, it is simple supply and demand.
There is demand (people want zen items, in form of those items or in form of zen, no difference), and 2 ways to satisfy it: putting zen into zax or putting items into AH.
People who sell items on AH, (important thing: both those who got zen with real money and via zax) satisfy that demand, and those who put zen into zax, also satisfy the demand.
The only difference is, using AH destroys some AD in the process, which ofc is good.
In the process of flipping no zen is lost, all is made into items that satisfy the demand
So basically, there are 2 ways to get zen items if you are a free player: use zax and wait, or use AH and get what you want instantly, but at higher price. And you know what? It is a fair deal.
Some things, like respec token, cannot be bought from AH, which is were it gets really frustrating, and it means free players need to use zax at some point, no matter how many AD are they ready to spend, but that's on a side note.
Now if Cryptic guys all get a serious head injury or something like that and decide to make all zen items bound, we'll have the same demand, but the only way to meet it will be zax...
You say that people who were selling zen items will use zax now, but only part of them will do that (I won't speculate about how many exactly, but it is obviously much less than you think).
Remember that a significant part of zen items avilable on AH come from lockboxes and profession packs, which contain random things. People open those because they know that if they get something they don't need (and that is usually the case) it can always be sold. If they'd have to keep all "useless junk" for themselves they would most likely not bother at all. And even if they would, it would not (as it happens now) lead to satisfying aforementioned demand.
So as result we would have the same zen demand (actually, even higher because more "random contain" items would have to be opened per person) and diminished supply. Oh and higher AD supply because of all that AD not being removed via AH tax.
In the process of flipping no zen is lost, all is made into items that satisfy the demand
In the process of flipping ALL zen is lost. It is traded to the ZEN store for items to flip.
This zen if bought with money or AD is taken OUT of the game completely.
So any zen you purchase something with is 100% lost.
Selling it for AD does not remove it from the game. In fact it just transfers ownership of the zen down the line.
It doesn't matter if the zen buys items that get bought on the AH as the matter is about how the two currencies interact with each other.
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darmazafMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 10
edited September 2014
Here is maybe some answer for the so long waiting time :
In the process of flipping ALL zen is lost. It is traded to the ZEN store for items to flip.
This zen if bought with money or AD is taken OUT of the game completely.
So any zen you purchase something with is 100% lost.
Selling it for AD does not remove it from the game. In fact it just transfers ownership of the zen down the line.
It doesn't matter if the zen buys items that get bought on the AH as the matter is about how the two currencies interact with each other.
Sigh... Ok, zen is lost, but at the same time demand for that exact amount of zen is satysfied.
You get zen or you get the item you wanted to buy with that zen, there is no difference. How is that hard to understand?
LOL "Flippers" : how can you be mad at a "flipper" -- makes me wanna go to Sea World.
BUT
Yeah, the flippers are the problem, and I'll explain it to you. First, let's agree on a couple of things, shall we?
1. The backlog is not normal, and is, in fact, bad.
2. The ZAX was not designed to be "locked" (oh and it is LOCKED right now) at the max cap of 500:1
Are we good with the above? Yes? If so, let's continue:
The ZAX Exploit Loop:
1. Get a bunch of AD
2. Use ZAX to convert to Zen
3. Buy Zen-only items that sell for a fortune on the AH
4. Sell these items on the AH
5. Go back to #1
As long as the AH prices for things are higher than the ZAX AD:Zen ratio, then the loop will continue to generate profits and will tend to drive the price of Zen higher at the ZAX (until the ZAX is essentially locked at the cap). Did you notice something about the loop? Right... the entire premise of the Loop is based upon getting people who don't know any better to buy AD with their Zen directly from the ZAX instead of being knowledgeable/clever enough to run the Loop themselves from #3. A perfectly educated non-exploited customer base would see the ZAX shut down immediately because NO ONE would ever buy AD for Zen again. But as long as there are "rubes", there will be weasels to take advantage of them. Harmless, indeed.
Note that this #3 in our economy is not being driven wholly by the pure sale of zen-only items, but as you pointed out, extra Lockbox contents and so on. And it does seem innocent because hey that's nice that you can sell that extra junk, right? There must be a demand for it, and the demand was either going to be at the AH or the ZAX adding to the backlog.
The problem is that profit is generated so very consistently by the sale of the "junk". As long as you can find someone foolish enough to buy AD with Zen, you can turn a profit off of them. It's pretty much a guaranteed win right now if you know what to get at the Zen store to "flip", and the answer is somewhere close to "just about anything" because the thing that is driving the glut from the backlog (the demand) is the same thing that is keeping the ZAX loaded up and obese with loopers. And people are indeed paying the skyhigh prices because they see no alternative --
"What? Wait 2 weeks to do it the "right" way, or pay more to some (possible) jerk that has been playing the game longer than me and is set up to take advantage of me?"
<resigned sigh>
"Just try to be gentle, please... this is my first time."
The fact that the above reaming is seemingly "sanctioned" by Cryptic, due to the way the ZAX works, is not helping them. You can't bill yourself in the trades as "Free to all comers, Big and Small!" and then pull the rug out from under them. New players have it rough in this economy. They are looking at a LOT of grind to get a respec token, or God forbid they stay long enough to want a coal ward!
If the ZAX was healthy (and there are several ways to fix it), it would not cost 500 AD to get 1 lousy zen! The ZAX Loop outlined above would NOT generate a profit, but would operate at a LOSS, to the point where it would be stupid to try it because you couldn't make any profit off of it. People posting items in the AH for sky-high prices would be laughed at. But here is the most crucial point to take away from this:
If the ZAX/Zen store was set up slightly differently, then 100% of the Zen entering the liquid (meaning tradeable with other players) economy would go through the ZAX to be converted to AD at the current market prices.
Right now, a great deal of Zen enters the liquid economy through cash shop items (see the Loop above from flippers, or just general population use + knowing better than to pay Zen for AD right now), which means that the balance of Zen entering the ZAX is greatly lowered from its healthy, mighty, backlog-shattering potential. THIS is why we have a backlog, ladies and gentlemen... the system needs a looking at. WAAAAAAY too much Zen makes it into the economy without hitting the ZAX. The demand is still there, and unable to get met. BINDING THE CASH SHOP ITEMS FIXES THIS. There are also a number of other things that can be done. I don't think the devs would make the CS 100% BOA, honestly... so don't worry about that.
But my point is that it WOULD work, because the Zen entering the liquid economy would HAVE to go through the ZAX instead of circumventing it. And then the demand seen at the AH would finally be met at the newer healthier ZAX instead of being offloaded to an unregulated wildly overpriced AH.
Sigh... Ok, zen is lost, but at the same time demand for that exact amount of zen is satysfied.
You get zen or you get the item you wanted to buy with that zen, there is no difference. How is that hard to understand?
Some people are just viewing it as the individual person buying and reselling that zen and not looking at the bigger picture that is whether you're transferring your ad for zen in the exchange or buying it from someone who did it for you. The end result is pretty much the same and is not a cause for economic destabilization. It's kind of lame to be able to profit from it, but its jsut supply and demand. If too many people were doing it or not enough people were buying then it would come to the point that barely any (or none) profit is made.
LOL "Flippers" : how can you be mad at a "flipper" -- makes me wanna go to Sea World.
BUT
Yeah, the flippers are the problem, and I'll explain it to you. First, let's agree on a couple of things, shall we?
1. The backlog is not normal, and is, in fact, bad.
2. The ZAX was not designed to be "locked" (oh and it is LOCKED right now) at the max cap of 500:1
Are we good with the above? Yes? If so, let's continue:
(...)
Yes, ofc I agree with 1 and 2. You also don't need to explain how the "zax exploit loop" works.
The point where we proly won't agree is that you think "flipping" is Demogorgon, the prince of demons, and I find it Hctib the imp.
First of all, backlog was not created by flipping (if that would be the case, it would be still increasing), although it may contribute to it a tiny bit.
I do not doubt there were people doing it before, but only after backlog was created, this became a good and easy source of profit. And it is still not that significant factor as you belive (again, flipping is blooming, and backlog is still decreasing)
How can you think selling zen items on AH is not meeting the demand is beyond me. Customers get the product, yes?
Demand for zen is 2 things: demand for zen items that can be traded on AH - now that is satisfied directly; and demand for zen items that cannot be traded (you need zax here), which is satisfied indirectly when people who would otherwise use zax, buy items from AH instead which means less zen ordered.
Guys, it's really not super complicated. There are two groups of people you're talking about:
- those who "flip" on the ZAX to make a profit, and
- those who buy "flipped" stuff on the AH to avoid waiting
If you make all ZAX items BtA, then group #1 will leave the ZAX, and the backlog will shrink. Group #2 will enter the ZAX, and the backlog will rise.
Where does that leave us? Nobody knows. You can argue all day whether group 1 or 2 is larger/more significant in terms of amount of AD in the ZAX, but that's some only Cryptic knows (if Cryptic, in fact, knows).
LOL "Flippers" : how can you be mad at a "flipper" -- makes me wanna go to Sea World.
BUT
Yeah, the flippers are the problem, and I'll explain it to you. First, let's agree on a couple of things, shall we?
1. The backlog is not normal, and is, in fact, bad.
2. The ZAX was not designed to be "locked" (oh and it is LOCKED right now) at the max cap of 500:1
Are we good with the above? Yes? If so, let's continue:
The ZAX Exploit Loop:
1. Get a bunch of AD
2. Use ZAX to convert to Zen
3. Buy Zen-only items that sell for a fortune on the AH
4. Sell these items on the AH
5. Go back to #1
As long as the AH prices for things are higher than the
Blah-blah-balh... it's usually free players (with huge amount of AD) exploiting (newer) free players. Cryptic does not care. Cash buyers buy stuff "directly" from cash-shop.
Ok just so you understand it, free players live in a dog eat dog world. Also at the mercy of cash Zen buyers. Cryptic is fine with the free players' inconvenient feelings.
Guys, it's really not super complicated. There are two groups of people you're talking about:
- those who "flip" on the ZAX to make a profit, and
- those who buy "flipped" stuff on the AH to avoid waiting
If you make all ZAX items BtA, then group #1 will leave the ZAX, and the backlog will shrink. Group #2 will enter the ZAX, and the backlog will rise.
Where does that leave us? Nobody knows. You can argue all day whether group 1 or 2 is larger/more significant in terms of amount of AD in the ZAX, but that's some only Cryptic knows (if Cryptic, in fact, knows).
Regardless of it's effect, it is an exploit that breaks the protection method of a game system. It should be fixed and flippers should be banned in a perfect world.
Regardless of it's effect, it is an exploit that breaks the protection method of a game system. It should be fixed and flippers should be banned in a perfect world.
OT: I see what you did thar.
On topic: Guys, please do keep it free from accusations and such. Debate is fine but attack the post and not the poster if you disagree with one anotehr.
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Regardless of it's effect, it is an exploit that breaks the protection method of a game system. It should be fixed and flippers should be banned in a perfect world.
I don't see how they're exploiting. They're just making profit off other people's impatience.
Don't get me wrong, I personally hate the activity. Flippers are leeches on the economy, imo. But unless PWE (a perfect world?) releases a statement that "flipping is a bannable offense" and/or makes all Zen store items BtA, I don't see anything happening.
Regardless of it's effect, it is an exploit that breaks the protection method of a game system. It should be fixed and flippers should be banned in a perfect world.
If we're banning people for selling overpriced stuff can we start with PW?
I don't see how they're exploiting. They're just making profit off other people's impatience.
Don't get me wrong, I personally hate the activity. Flippers are leeches on the economy, imo. But unless PWE (a perfect world?) releases a statement that "flipping is a bannable offense" and/or makes all Zen store items BtA, I don't see anything happening.
Well like I said it's all in my version of a perfect system, using my definitions. But the reasoning behind it is that sometime during beta, (I can't find the quote now, I've looked for it but it's lost in the caturday noise) it was explained to us that the ZAX has a cap of 50:1 on the low end to protect the value of Zen, and a cap on the high end of 500:1 to protect new players and the value of AD. With that being the case, in my opinion, flipping is a serious breach. Now PWE is going to do what ever they decide. But that's why I see it as no different than caturday or resonday.
Just one more thing that will be nothing new, but I jst have to say it: Flippers are not evil! They do not exploit, they do profit in 100% legit way. It seems like some people can't stand not the way it is done, but the fact someone is making profit at all.
Also, selling things on AH is not ruining economy, quite the opposite.
I don't see how they're exploiting. They're just making profit off other people's impatience.
Don't get me wrong, I personally hate the activity. Flippers are leeches on the economy, imo. But unless PWE (a perfect world?) releases a statement that "flipping is a bannable offense" and/or makes all Zen store items BtA, I don't see anything happening.
You see? This guy gets it.
It's kinda on Cryptic to adjust their system if they want to get the ZAX back to the way it "should be". Players are not going to self-regulate -- heck, we can't be trusted not to lie, cheat, and steal at every opportunity that presents itself! LOL
PS I see where some of us object to my use of the word "exploit" when discussing the ZAX loop. Yes, it is a valid game mechanic as far as it is not using third-party software, glitches, etc., but to try to claim that going around the 500:1 exchange rate as a profit mechanism -- strictly to generate more AD for yourself -- is not the least bit "shady" in terms of what is intended by the devs (see the 500:1 exchange cap for proof of this intent), then you are being just a teeny bit disingenuous, and perhaps it might bespeak one's motivations if defending such a tactic to <insert word that is not "exploit" here>.
I prefer my original use of "exploit", but that is semantics only.
Meanwhile, zax backlog continues to drop. Which kinda shows this discussion is purely academic.
I suppose all the "flippers" are responsible for this positive development?
What happens when the backlog drops enough (if it does) to where it is only a few days or so? I'm SURE this will not encourage renewed "flipping" and subsequent backlog increase.
I suppose all the "flippers" are responsible for this positive development?
What happens when the backlog drops enough (if it does) to where it is only a few days or so? I'm SURE this will not encourage renewed "flipping" and subsequent backlog increase.
I'm also sure something like that won't happen
The only real threat I can think of is some really good zen promo, and since the current keys sale didn't do much, It would have to be something really, really good.
Comments
They're not even that effective anyway. Sometimes parts of captchas make you wonder if it's part of a letter or just some random squiggle.
Yes... you were selling zen items on AH before, but it was not a problem then, since the price wasn't that much different. Basically, it wasn't that much good way to make profit.
Now after the backlog was created, you could sell things for so much more....
And of course the exploit played a major role. Now that it is gone, backlog is decreasing, and AH prices also, just give it some time.
We won't see 200k coals on AH anymore, but well... Cryptic obviously wanted it more expensive.
All they have done is alienated their player base. But that's ok, I bought like 20 at the time they were 100 or 200k. If everyone else is fine with being screwed, that's their problem. $10 per ward is not a fair price but I'm not the one that has to pay it.
If you are expected to play multiple characters then it shouldn't cost hundreds of dollars to upgrade each enchantment. Or months of grinding for each one. Sorry , but this game doesn't have years of gameplay content.
Completely disagree here. We don't even know if the majority of sellers on the AH are the ones spending the money anyway. The people buying zen items to resell are just trying to make a hefty profit. Trying to get more AD on the AH than they can on the exchange. Not saying that is a bad thing. But making the items they are selling account bound would force them to get their AD from the exchange.
As someone else pointed out: people doing this only add to the exchange backlog. They make their AD from the AH so they never buy it from the Exchange. Instead they constantly buy massive amounts of Zen every time they flip. I would guess that many of them aren't even spending any real money of their own. Just consuming a large chunk of the zen from people that do.
I still don't know if making stuff account bound is the right call though. It would tick off a lot of people. And we can't see all the data that Cryptic has. I can certainly see why some would think its the right move though.
I agree, $10 per ward is not a fair price. Then again, neither is $20 for 1 million AD the way prices are today in the AH.
Well that is actually irrelevant. The point is, making things BoP would increase the backlog.
But Cryptic will never do it, because they want to sell zen.
So you say people get zen via zax and flip? Yes, some do so, but 1.still all the zen there is in the game had to be purchased with real money, ergo: there are spenders, and they inject enough zen into the system so everyone can get zen, even if you need to wait currently, and 2. flipping is not that bad. it was totally harmless when we hadn't backlog, and since it is decreasing, soon the problem will cure itself without any moves from Cryptic.
Actually, flipping helps, since the more you use AH, the more AD is destroyed.
The thing is that using the auction house works similar to the exchange. You're using zen to exchange for someone else's ad at a different rate and removing 10% from the economy. Making them bound doesn't help at all. Instead of the one person selling their zen for ad, the people wanting the zen will probably be getting it from multiple people. The people still want their zen items and will have to use the exchange instead of the ones they bought it from in the AH. The only reduction would be if people wanted it now and so buy it with real money instead.
It was relevant to the post I was responding to. Saying players would quit buying Zen. If most of the people selling on the AH aren't buying the Zen with cash in the first place, then it would have little affect. If majority of spenders are just using the items they buy... then they would be unaffected by the switch to account bound. We don't have the actual numbers though. Only Cryptic would. Hopefully are they keeping up with that kind of thing.
No. It doesn't help. Because the Zen the flippers get a hold of never gets back into the exchange. They eliminate way more Zen from the economy than they do AD. The 10% the AH destroys is nothing compared to the Zen that is drained when they buy stuff just to sell.
Eh? Look the problem is the backlog. The backlog helps flippers profit because they can sell stuff for more than zen-store price. Also remember many of the things in the AH aren't full Zen value in the fist place. They were bought at reduced prices through a sale or coupons. Flippers add to the backlog by keeping zen out of it. They profit from it, they have no reason to want it gone. But if it is more zen flows into the exchange. The more zen that flows into the exchange then the faster it rotates offers through. Even if the backlog isn't eliminated the average player gets their Zen offer through faster.
Again. We don't have the numbers. Only Cryptic does. So we can't say for sure if this would be a good idea or not. Imo *IF* most of the people flipping are not buying their Zen themselves, then account bound might be a good idea. However if many of the flippers are spending their own cash for Zen, then it could obviously hurt Cryptic's Zen sales. Either way hopefully Cryptic is keeping up with what people who actually pay cash for Zen are buying with it. Remember I'm not saying this is the whole problem either. There are several factors adding to the backlog. Just saying this is one of them.
Eh, it's just demonizing flippers.
The thing you don't get is, people need zen to buy stuff. So even if they don't get zen, they still can get those things from AH and are happy. And if the price is higher that way... people still find it a good deal, otherwise they would not buy anything.
Look, it is simple supply and demand.
There is demand (people want zen items, in form of those items or in form of zen, no difference), and 2 ways to satisfy it: putting zen into zax or putting items into AH.
People who sell items on AH, (important thing: both those who got zen with real money and via zax) satisfy that demand, and those who put zen into zax, also satisfy the demand.
The only difference is, using AH destroys some AD in the process, which ofc is good.
In the process of flipping no zen is lost, all is made into items that satisfy the demand
So basically, there are 2 ways to get zen items if you are a free player: use zax and wait, or use AH and get what you want instantly, but at higher price. And you know what? It is a fair deal.
Some things, like respec token, cannot be bought from AH, which is were it gets really frustrating, and it means free players need to use zax at some point, no matter how many AD are they ready to spend, but that's on a side note.
Now if Cryptic guys all get a serious head injury or something like that and decide to make all zen items bound, we'll have the same demand, but the only way to meet it will be zax...
You say that people who were selling zen items will use zax now, but only part of them will do that (I won't speculate about how many exactly, but it is obviously much less than you think).
Remember that a significant part of zen items avilable on AH come from lockboxes and profession packs, which contain random things. People open those because they know that if they get something they don't need (and that is usually the case) it can always be sold. If they'd have to keep all "useless junk" for themselves they would most likely not bother at all. And even if they would, it would not (as it happens now) lead to satisfying aforementioned demand.
So as result we would have the same zen demand (actually, even higher because more "random contain" items would have to be opened per person) and diminished supply. Oh and higher AD supply because of all that AD not being removed via AH tax.
How is that supposed to help anything again?
In the process of flipping ALL zen is lost. It is traded to the ZEN store for items to flip.
This zen if bought with money or AD is taken OUT of the game completely.
So any zen you purchase something with is 100% lost.
Selling it for AD does not remove it from the game. In fact it just transfers ownership of the zen down the line.
It doesn't matter if the zen buys items that get bought on the AH as the matter is about how the two currencies interact with each other.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?749081-ZEN-Exchange-Recent-purchase-activity
Not the reason, I'm afraid. The backlog has been in place since long before this policy was implemented.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Sigh... Ok, zen is lost, but at the same time demand for that exact amount of zen is satysfied.
You get zen or you get the item you wanted to buy with that zen, there is no difference. How is that hard to understand?
BUT
Yeah, the flippers are the problem, and I'll explain it to you. First, let's agree on a couple of things, shall we?
1. The backlog is not normal, and is, in fact, bad.
2. The ZAX was not designed to be "locked" (oh and it is LOCKED right now) at the max cap of 500:1
Are we good with the above? Yes? If so, let's continue:
The ZAX Exploit Loop:
1. Get a bunch of AD
2. Use ZAX to convert to Zen
3. Buy Zen-only items that sell for a fortune on the AH
4. Sell these items on the AH
5. Go back to #1
As long as the AH prices for things are higher than the ZAX AD:Zen ratio, then the loop will continue to generate profits and will tend to drive the price of Zen higher at the ZAX (until the ZAX is essentially locked at the cap). Did you notice something about the loop? Right... the entire premise of the Loop is based upon getting people who don't know any better to buy AD with their Zen directly from the ZAX instead of being knowledgeable/clever enough to run the Loop themselves from #3. A perfectly educated non-exploited customer base would see the ZAX shut down immediately because NO ONE would ever buy AD for Zen again. But as long as there are "rubes", there will be weasels to take advantage of them. Harmless, indeed.
Note that this #3 in our economy is not being driven wholly by the pure sale of zen-only items, but as you pointed out, extra Lockbox contents and so on. And it does seem innocent because hey that's nice that you can sell that extra junk, right? There must be a demand for it, and the demand was either going to be at the AH or the ZAX adding to the backlog.
The problem is that profit is generated so very consistently by the sale of the "junk". As long as you can find someone foolish enough to buy AD with Zen, you can turn a profit off of them. It's pretty much a guaranteed win right now if you know what to get at the Zen store to "flip", and the answer is somewhere close to "just about anything" because the thing that is driving the glut from the backlog (the demand) is the same thing that is keeping the ZAX loaded up and obese with loopers. And people are indeed paying the skyhigh prices because they see no alternative --
"What? Wait 2 weeks to do it the "right" way, or pay more to some (possible) jerk that has been playing the game longer than me and is set up to take advantage of me?"
<resigned sigh>
"Just try to be gentle, please... this is my first time."
The fact that the above reaming is seemingly "sanctioned" by Cryptic, due to the way the ZAX works, is not helping them. You can't bill yourself in the trades as "Free to all comers, Big and Small!" and then pull the rug out from under them. New players have it rough in this economy. They are looking at a LOT of grind to get a respec token, or God forbid they stay long enough to want a coal ward!
If the ZAX was healthy (and there are several ways to fix it), it would not cost 500 AD to get 1 lousy zen! The ZAX Loop outlined above would NOT generate a profit, but would operate at a LOSS, to the point where it would be stupid to try it because you couldn't make any profit off of it. People posting items in the AH for sky-high prices would be laughed at. But here is the most crucial point to take away from this:
If the ZAX/Zen store was set up slightly differently, then 100% of the Zen entering the liquid (meaning tradeable with other players) economy would go through the ZAX to be converted to AD at the current market prices.
Right now, a great deal of Zen enters the liquid economy through cash shop items (see the Loop above from flippers, or just general population use + knowing better than to pay Zen for AD right now), which means that the balance of Zen entering the ZAX is greatly lowered from its healthy, mighty, backlog-shattering potential. THIS is why we have a backlog, ladies and gentlemen... the system needs a looking at. WAAAAAAY too much Zen makes it into the economy without hitting the ZAX. The demand is still there, and unable to get met. BINDING THE CASH SHOP ITEMS FIXES THIS. There are also a number of other things that can be done. I don't think the devs would make the CS 100% BOA, honestly... so don't worry about that.
But my point is that it WOULD work, because the Zen entering the liquid economy would HAVE to go through the ZAX instead of circumventing it. And then the demand seen at the AH would finally be met at the newer healthier ZAX instead of being offloaded to an unregulated wildly overpriced AH.
/end novel
Some people are just viewing it as the individual person buying and reselling that zen and not looking at the bigger picture that is whether you're transferring your ad for zen in the exchange or buying it from someone who did it for you. The end result is pretty much the same and is not a cause for economic destabilization. It's kind of lame to be able to profit from it, but its jsut supply and demand. If too many people were doing it or not enough people were buying then it would come to the point that barely any (or none) profit is made.
Yes, ofc I agree with 1 and 2. You also don't need to explain how the "zax exploit loop" works.
The point where we proly won't agree is that you think "flipping" is Demogorgon, the prince of demons, and I find it Hctib the imp.
First of all, backlog was not created by flipping (if that would be the case, it would be still increasing), although it may contribute to it a tiny bit.
I do not doubt there were people doing it before, but only after backlog was created, this became a good and easy source of profit. And it is still not that significant factor as you belive (again, flipping is blooming, and backlog is still decreasing)
How can you think selling zen items on AH is not meeting the demand is beyond me. Customers get the product, yes?
Demand for zen is 2 things: demand for zen items that can be traded on AH - now that is satisfied directly; and demand for zen items that cannot be traded (you need zax here), which is satisfied indirectly when people who would otherwise use zax, buy items from AH instead which means less zen ordered.
- those who "flip" on the ZAX to make a profit, and
- those who buy "flipped" stuff on the AH to avoid waiting
If you make all ZAX items BtA, then group #1 will leave the ZAX, and the backlog will shrink. Group #2 will enter the ZAX, and the backlog will rise.
Where does that leave us? Nobody knows. You can argue all day whether group 1 or 2 is larger/more significant in terms of amount of AD in the ZAX, but that's some only Cryptic knows (if Cryptic, in fact, knows).
Blah-blah-balh... it's usually free players (with huge amount of AD) exploiting (newer) free players. Cryptic does not care. Cash buyers buy stuff "directly" from cash-shop.
Ok just so you understand it, free players live in a dog eat dog world. Also at the mercy of cash Zen buyers. Cryptic is fine with the free players' inconvenient feelings.
Regardless of it's effect, it is an exploit that breaks the protection method of a game system. It should be fixed and flippers should be banned in a perfect world.
OT: I see what you did thar.
On topic: Guys, please do keep it free from accusations and such. Debate is fine but attack the post and not the poster if you disagree with one anotehr.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I don't see how they're exploiting. They're just making profit off other people's impatience.
Don't get me wrong, I personally hate the activity. Flippers are leeches on the economy, imo. But unless PWE (a perfect world?) releases a statement that "flipping is a bannable offense" and/or makes all Zen store items BtA, I don't see anything happening.
If we're banning people for selling overpriced stuff can we start with PW?
Well like I said it's all in my version of a perfect system, using my definitions. But the reasoning behind it is that sometime during beta, (I can't find the quote now, I've looked for it but it's lost in the caturday noise) it was explained to us that the ZAX has a cap of 50:1 on the low end to protect the value of Zen, and a cap on the high end of 500:1 to protect new players and the value of AD. With that being the case, in my opinion, flipping is a serious breach. Now PWE is going to do what ever they decide. But that's why I see it as no different than caturday or resonday.
Also, selling things on AH is not ruining economy, quite the opposite.
You see? This guy gets it.
It's kinda on Cryptic to adjust their system if they want to get the ZAX back to the way it "should be". Players are not going to self-regulate -- heck, we can't be trusted not to lie, cheat, and steal at every opportunity that presents itself! LOL
PS I see where some of us object to my use of the word "exploit" when discussing the ZAX loop. Yes, it is a valid game mechanic as far as it is not using third-party software, glitches, etc., but to try to claim that going around the 500:1 exchange rate as a profit mechanism -- strictly to generate more AD for yourself -- is not the least bit "shady" in terms of what is intended by the devs (see the 500:1 exchange cap for proof of this intent), then you are being just a teeny bit disingenuous, and perhaps it might bespeak one's motivations if defending such a tactic to <insert word that is not "exploit" here>.
I prefer my original use of "exploit", but that is semantics only.
I suppose all the "flippers" are responsible for this positive development?
What happens when the backlog drops enough (if it does) to where it is only a few days or so? I'm SURE this will not encourage renewed "flipping" and subsequent backlog increase.
I'm also sure something like that won't happen
The only real threat I can think of is some really good zen promo, and since the current keys sale didn't do much, It would have to be something really, really good.