I agree with this. In a pug, needing is ok if its for your class. Cause you know.. maybe that person needing for his class actually needs it. And a pug with no prior agreed upon arrangement is open to whatever within reason (outside of reason, is being kicked because you needed on a piece of gear for your class)
That's exactly the point why kick while looting should be fixed. And yet so many people defend it. I really curse those people, that every pug group they join consist them and 4 guildies, who also like to ninja stuff.
There can be argument about kicking, about agreement and many things.
But one thing is sure, All Greed it is less selfish and more fair.
Thus is the suggestion of ALL GREED loot mode where you can either greed or pass And another suggestion is to make things bind on need, so the poor DC from my previous post wont jump to his death from a high place in PE.
Just because you say the current system is less fair, doesn't make it so. You guys really need to do the math and support your argument. I'm not totally against all greed. However, go make your premade greed run group and have a nice day. I do pug and I need what I need. Period.
He doesnt get it. The AD grind is real. He's in it for "greed" not the opportunity to need because you need it. People seem to like to stack unnecessary RNG on top of an already RNG drop. A decent person would understand what you're trying to say. Like I need food to survive. I greed 4 pepperoni pizzas on a daily basis.
I will iterate THE AD GRIND IS REAL.
Also on topic kicking while looting is bad. And you should feel bad if you do it.
I do think the idea to bind on need isnt terrible.
He doesnt get it. The AD grind is real. He's in it for "greed" not the opportunity to need because you need it. People seem to like to stack unnecessary RNG on top of an already RNG drop. A decent person would understand what you're trying to say. Like I need food to survive. I greed 4 pepperoni pizzas on a daily basis.
I will iterate THE AD GRIND IS REAL.
Also on topic kicking while looting is bad. And you should feel bad if you do it.
Finally someone understands what's going on.
Bind on need is in fact implemented in some other MMOs, which work like a charm.
Now the only issue with BoN in this game is that epic gear can be savaged for rough AD, that might still encourage people need for AD. I don't see it being a big problem, but it doesn't completely solve these people's problem of forcing people to not need.
Just because you say the current system is less fair, doesn't make it so. You guys really need to do the math and support your argument. I'm not totally against all greed. However, go make your premade greed run group and have a nice day. I do pug and I need what I need. Period.
I edit posts to quote relevant argument to make it clear, sorry but that easier for me. You will get your math and argument, though please apply the same standard and your former posts consist of "you fail" (not to me, erase that - you just "you fail" to me too) and nothing more.
2. I do premades and only permades, the one time few days ago when i thought to randomly queue and carry some one random to get his gear, people started betting on how fast i will be kicked as I'm a TR. regardless of DPS..
I honest don't give a F**K if you make your own group, and having everyone AGREED on rolling greed. Nothing is wrong with that.
The whole thing I was talking about is about pug runs. And also, please dude, you fail math.
great argument here between the F*** and fail...
i gave example of how game population dont reflect dungeon queues...
And you completly ignored run times and what i wrote, If we have one run per DD
no matter how many CWs you have and you claim it is 14% chance so we get most likely one, and one DC
The DC will have worse avarage.
For a very large population we will have two CW to fill the group and yet again DC got less.
Just curious, did you queue as CW and the queue never popped for you during DD ?
He doesnt get it. The AD grind is real. He's in it for "greed" not the opportunity to need because you need it. People seem to like to stack unnecessary RNG on top of an already RNG drop. A decent person would understand what you're trying to say. Like I need food to survive. I greed 4 pepperoni pizzas on a daily basis.
I will iterate THE AD GRIND IS REAL.
Also on topic kicking while looting is bad. And you should feel bad if you do it.
I do think the idea to bind on need isnt terrible.
I gave the bind example in my own post. And people NEED an item is irrelevant, becouse i can't judge if they need it to sell or need it to equip or need it in theyr bank... everyone has needs .. what will prevent someone to need just becouse he need enchants and need the AD for that ?
search this same topic (there were many threads about need/greed) and you will see players claiming exactly this. "I will need couse i want to sell and need the AD"
Just to clerify if a person asks to need an item and bind it, in all groups i've been to it was not an issuem but the main problem is it is also not the right thing to do, he/she will get the bound item from the chest and will profit more from selling so it is mainly good idea for sets like Hirmirs rings and amulet. Binding set items is just a loss of AD.
I edit posts to quote relevant argument to make it clear, sorry but that easier for me. You will get your math and argument, though please apply the same standard and your former posts consist of "you fail" (not to me) and nothing more.
2. I do premades and only permades, the one time few days ago when i thought to randomly queue and carry some one random to get his gear, people started betting on how fast i will be kicked as I'm a TR. regardless of DPS..
I've never seen any TR being kicked, without a reason (like low gs or doing stupid things.), but that's irrelevant. Again I'm not even talking about premade runs here, so please don't argue with me any more if you talk about premade runs. You can do whatever you want in premade runs, as long as everyone agrees.
I'M TALKING ABOUT PUG RUNS. Please leave me alone if u are not talking about pug runs.
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erhgfMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited July 2014
^^^^
Thank for very much for understanding what's going on.... I read through the thread and many posts make me face/palm because they sound like they didn't read through my post at all but just responded to the title of the thread, stuffing it with whatever comes up in their head. In a pug made from the queue system, with many people don't even speak English, the loot and kick systems will have the ultimate control of everything. With a queue system already in place, I don't think why we shouldn't use it and be able to enjoy it. Those who mentioned LFG (wastes way too much time with people picking gs and classes), legit (no one seems to care about FC), and guild runs are totally off topic.
Thank for very much for understanding what's going on.... I read through the thread and many posts make me face/palm because they sound like they didn't read through my post at all but just responded to the title of the thread, stuffing it with whatever comes up in their head. In a pug made from the queue system, with many people don't even speak English, the loot and kick systems will have the ultimate control of everything. With a queue system already in place, I don't think why we shouldn't use it and be able to enjoy it. Those who mentioned LFG (wastes way too much time with people picking gs and classes), legit (no one seems to care about FC), and guild runs are totally off topic.
LOL, the people talking about premades don't realize they can just walk into the instance (instead they use the que after making the group) and thus the leader can kick anyone they want, without a vote. If they truly need to kick people, do it that way. The vote kicking while looting issue should be fixed.
I gave the bind example in my own post. And people NEED an item is irrelevant, becouse i can't judge if they need it to sell or need it to equip or need it in theyr bank... everyone has needs .. what will prevent someone to need just becouse he need enchants and need the AD for that ?
search this same topic and you will see players claiming exactly this. "I will need couse i want to sell and need the AD"
Yah I know you gave that suggestion, it isnt bad.
And Ive heard that reasoning before, but coming from people ALREADY geared. Someone not geared NEEDs the gear that dropped right in front of his face. He isnt greedy because he needs the extra AD. He NEEDs it for his character. And yes I agree you can never exactly tell what that persons true intentions are, but 1 lost drop cause you gave a random a piece of gear he did potentially need isnt going to make you or him the NW millionaire. If he/she does it often theyll make a name for themselves in a bad way.
LOL, the people talking about premades don't realize they can just walk into the instance (instead they use the que after making the group) and thus the leader can kick anyone they want, without a vote. If they truly need to kick people, do it that way. The vote kicking while looting issue should be fixed.
That just not correct. You cannot enter any epic dungeon. And leader cannot kick anyone without a vote. Kicking without a vote is only possible in skirmishes.
have you run epics ?
And Ive heard that reasoning before, but coming from people ALREADY geared. Someone not geared NEEDs the gear that dropped right in front of his face. He isnt greedy because he needs the extra AD. He NEEDs it for his character. And yes I agree you can never exactly tell what that persons true intentions are, but 1 lost drop cause you gave a random a piece of gear he did potentially need isnt going to make you or him the NW millionaire. If he/she does it often theyll make a name for themselves in a bad way.
According to those people's logic, even if you need the gear as you can use it right away, should just roll greed. Then sell whatever you win and buy your gear from AH. what kinda crappy logic this is....
That just not correct. You cannot enter any epic dungeon. And leader cannot kick anyone without a vote. Kicking without a vote is only possible in skirmishes.
have you run epics ?
Ok I will take that. Ya I was wrong, forgot you can't walk into epic dungeons. And no, I don't do premades, I only run pug. Epic of course.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
And Ive heard that reasoning before, but coming from people ALREADY geared. Someone not geared NEEDs the gear that dropped right in front of his face. He isnt greedy because he needs the extra AD. He NEEDs it for his character. And yes I agree you can never exactly tell what that persons true intentions are, but 1 lost drop cause you gave a random a piece of gear he did potentially need isnt going to make you or him the NW millionaire. If he/she does it often theyll make a name for themselves in a bad way.
Yes and no, many people just need and the population is big enoughs to that name to get lost..
In real runs there is the DD chest that will give you the gear you (general you) actually need to gear and it will be already bound, so the whole other items are actually worth more to sell than to gear even if it fits and you dont have it.
Using unbound item that can drop from the chest is just not a good idea..
Specially for gearing people that are usually extrimly low on AD, so it is a double edged sword.
The idea to add greed all (and the other loot options) as a vote when entering to dungeons looks to me as the most viable option, those that want it can have it those that dont can ignore it.
It will prevent the ninja looting in greed groups and allow geared people to actually help pugs to get DD chest, by giving incentive for geard people to include pugs in premades or even queue.
According to those people's logic, even if you need the gear as you can use it right away, should just roll greed. Then sell whatever you win and buy your gear from AH. what kinda crappy logic this is....
The logic where one item worth much more than another and some are not worth buying when you can run a dungeon and get it for free from the DD chest.
But please be rude...
According to those people's logic, even if you need the gear as you can use it right away, should just roll greed. Then sell whatever you win and buy your gear from AH. what kinda crappy logic this is....
Its AD farmers logic. I can see both sides. But one has to give. And if the person legitimately needs (and given the particular circumstances of this instance - pug, no prior agreement on loots, you actually NEED the item), its perfectly acceptable to need. Then you got kicked which shouldnt be acceptable under those circumstances.
The idea to add greed all (and the other loot options) as a vote when entering to dungeons looks to me as the most viable option, those that want it can have it those that dont can ignore it.
It will prevent the ninja looting in greed groups and allow geared people to actually help pugs to get DD chest, by giving incentive for geard people to include pugs in premades or even queue
Thats perfectly fine. Such an idea would be good for the greed runners. BUT again given the particular circumstances, I see nothing wrong. I may of personally asked first, out of courtesy. But he needed an item in a pug with no prior arrangements on the loot while actually needing it? Does that really sound out of line?
You have your right to give up your rights. You do not have the right to force others to give up theirs. You can come up with an agreement with them, thus premade greed run group. However, by no means any pug group should do greed runs.
ok, ur wasting my time. ive already said this in another post. on this very thread. that op was unfairly kicked. since no claim was made, even upon entry of the party that it was greed run. and that was the parties own mistake of having forgotten to specify it. if un specified - then no one should be kicked. and in my case - when it not specified. instead of blindly needing an item i ask before the pt " is this need or greed" this avoids any miscommunication/ awkward situation where someone gets unfairly kicked when no mention of loot rolls was made.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Thank for very much for understanding what's going on.... I read through the thread and many posts make me face/palm because they sound like they didn't read through my post at all but just responded to the title of the thread, stuffing it with whatever comes up in their head. In a pug made from the queue system, with many people don't even speak English, the loot and kick systems will have the ultimate control of everything. With a queue system already in place, I don't think why we shouldn't use it and be able to enjoy it. Those who mentioned LFG (wastes way too much time with people picking gs and classes), legit (no one seems to care about FC), and guild runs are totally off topic.
The queue system is bad exactly because what happened to you, the fact that 2 can kick all the rest of the team, and loot mode can;t be enforced (what the argument came from). (and a premade can join a pug and kick him)
They should have told you the loot rules, you should have asked, anyway not much to add, and as you yourself wrote it is not the first time on the forums and unfortunately not the last some one will encounter.
Doing GG (when adding a pug to group) some pople auto greed without being told, some ask, some need, many do look for greed runs.
The question what to do with it, and imo, voting for loot mode is the best option and making the kick option as a normal majority. And no kicking during open rolls or in combat ( to prevent someone looking at the loot and kicking the pug ) .
Those changes are enough to make everyone happy, imo.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Thats perfectly fine. Such an idea would be good for the greed runners. BUT again given the particular circumstances, I see nothing wrong. I may of personally asked first, out of courtesy. But he needed an item in a pug with no prior arrangements on the loot while actually needing it? Does that really sound out of line?
No disagreement from me.
And never claimed it was ok what happened to the OP, it was a communication problem and an unfair kick and not the greed system being better or worse than need/greed/pass.
Excuse me? Please tell me I failed to read sarcasm at this late hour or refer me to the section in the game's manual where it says greed is the default option. Oh wait. You cannot. Why do you think need is the first option in the list? So people can actually get an item if it drops for them, despite the terrible RNG, without greedy little poopdecks like you butting in. And last time I checked bosses drop items and not AD. Show me pics proving otherwise or you're simply another greedy player who demands a 2nd RNG roll just so you can get rich over the backs of the people who actually need the item.
The RNG decides for which class the item drops. If that's not you, too bad. better luck next time. Do another round and see if you can get the item you need and run with people who have the decency to roll greed if the item is theirs, but don't need it. This money attitude is what's ruining the game with your speedy greed runs. And here you are, trying to convince people that's how you're supposed to play? Bah. You make me sick.
The game made it like that. If the items were BoP or if they weren't so valuable this wouldn't happen. If people actually used the item they were rolling need this wouldn't be seen as bad conduct; most people are greedy, understand this.
Greedy attitudes are everywhere. If you don't tolerate them I think you shouldn't go outside.
It is obvious that "need" is the default - it is the first selection. Hitting "greed" seems more greedy, hence the name, "greed." Your argument is not logical.
They're tooltips, they don't mean anything. The configuration is Need>Greed>Pass.
I can need the item for AD, doesn't change anything. I still think the default choice, if no one point anything, is Greed. Using Need generally makes you look bad.
(´･ ω ･`)
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unrealized1977Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 100
edited July 2014
Well, let me step in here for a moment, and this has happened with my guild runs before, we are all the way into FC, close to the end boss in combat a member drops out for what ever reason a pug GF or DC gets added. Fights almost over and he joins for 1 swing and then rolls need on the drop. Hell I want him kicked, even during the final fight why should he have the option to roll for an item when he didn't contribute to the whole FC run?
But I see other peoples logic, there has to be an option that if the system allows a pug to join and existing group that has not contributed, they should not get any type of roll on the final boss.
If all of the endgame gear is BoE, then the game has done this to itself.
Everyone sees every piece of gear as useful. It's either an upgrade to equip or it's a pile of AD waiting to happen.
But unless it is set up in advance, I see nothing wrong with people needing on gear for their class, and especially if they plan on equipping that gear.
So what if the TR thinks that they could sell that GWF item for a pile of ADs? That TR can need on any TR gear that drops and sell it if they want. TR gear doesn't sell for as much? Then they can get equipped cheaper. The TR doesn't need the GWF gear as mush as the GWF does, even if the GWF just wants to sell it. They need those extra ADs more.
The TR can sell their gear for less and manage just fine because they can buy their gear for less. Every time they invoke, they are getting more buying power out of their ADs than the GWF. And there will be times that some class or another isn't around when gear for them drops, giving them just as much of a chance of getting those extra ADs as any other character.
Now I don't know who's gear sells for most and who's sells for least, so before anyone gets all bent out of shape over the above example, it is just that. Change out the classes and the point remains.
=============
All that said, I am in favor of more tools to fine tune loot distribution.
I have never cared for master looter, but if guild memebers are okay with the guild leader deciding who gets what gear, then that's their business.
At a minimum they should add a "greed only" option that can be set up before things begin, and that once set can only be changed by unanimous vote.
At least that way you would know the deal going in. Want the freedom to need on class gear? Find another group of like-minded individuals.
Further, I agree that there should be limits on kicking. No player should be subject to the whims of another when it comes to PUGs.
The needed changes have been pretty much covered:
1) No kicking with loot being decided.
2) No kicking during or within 15-20 seconds after a fight. That should give a player time enough to get to a chest or whatever to get the loot on the table.
3) Kicking requires a unanimous vote of the other players. No, group leader, you can not kick someone just so you can bring that friend in that just logged on to take their place. At least not unless the entire group agrees, at which point the group is just a bunch of jerks and to heck with them, anyway.
Well, let me step in here for a moment, and this has happened with my guild runs before, we are all the way into FC, close to the end boss in combat a member drops out for what ever reason a pug GF or DC gets added. Fights almost over and he joins for 1 swing and then rolls need on the drop. Hell I want him kicked, even during the final fight why should he have the option to roll for an item when he didn't contribute to the whole FC run?
But I see other peoples logic, there has to be an option that if the system allows a pug to join and existing group that has not contributed, they should not get any type of roll on the final boss.
You freeze those folks out from loot and fewer players, if any, will be willing to jump in to dungeons that are already in progress, or they will join and then quit, possibly after the fight has started leaving everyone else in a bind.
Well, let me step in here for a moment, and this has happened with my guild runs before, we are all the way into FC, close to the end boss in combat a member drops out for what ever reason a pug GF or DC gets added. Fights almost over and he joins for 1 swing and then rolls need on the drop. Hell I want him kicked, even during the final fight why should he have the option to roll for an item when he didn't contribute to the whole FC run?
But I see other peoples logic, there has to be an option that if the system allows a pug to join and existing group that has not contributed, they should not get any type of roll on the final boss.
this is a spot where i'd kick if he tried to roll greed... or anything except pass.
just gonna chime in with my 2 cents of repeated statements. all you guys who are arguing on the OP's side simply don't play the game enough. you have your opinions, yes, lovely, you're entitled to them and all that, but you don't know what you're talking about. the best way to gear up in this game is just to run dungeons (t1 and t2) during dungeon delves. every class has the same cost to gear up, and that cost should be some hours of your time, roughly 0 AD, and 0 zen.
this is a spot where i'd kick if he tried to roll greed... or anything except pass.
just gonna chime in with my 2 cents of repeated statements. all you guys who are arguing on the OP's side simply don't play the game enough. you have your opinions, yes, lovely, you're entitled to them and all that, but you don't know what you're talking about. the best way to gear up in this game is just to run dungeons (t1 and t2) during dungeon delves. every class has the same cost to gear up, and that cost should be some hours of your time, roughly 0 AD, and 0 zen.
Thats great for the people who have time to wait for DD but it doesn't always come around. Some times i can only do 1 DD run a week so what thats the only time your allowed to use pieces. The people who believe that everyone should only sell BoE gear and just get all their gear from DD have way to much time to play this game. If a piece drops weather is BoP or BoE if its an upgrade i'm gonna wear it regardless, and who are you to tell others what to do with their items. These people who only sell BoP's care about one thing and one thing only watching their millions of AD go up, That is were all this time is more valuable blah blah blah bs, comes from is the people who when pieces drop only see $$ where as the average player just wants to upgrade their gear. I think its kinda sad that so many people only care about how much online wealth they acquire, and could care less about other players in the game. Because as stated by many in this thread, the only way their gonna help others new to dungeons is if their gonna get something out of it. For all the people who are gonna say that they deserve to get something out of it, how about the knowledge that they helped some others, i know it may be new to some of you but that is way more valuable then any amount of AD.
So what if the TR thinks that they could sell that GWF item for a pile of ADs? That TR can need on any TR gear that drops and sell it if they want. TR gear doesn't sell for as much? Then they can get equipped cheaper. The TR doesn't need the GWF gear as mush as the GWF does, even if the GWF just wants to sell it. They need those extra ADs more.
It is a good thing the TR gets discounts on enchantments and doesn't need those AD as much as the GWF...oh wait , they don't?
Cheap gear is great, but there are many other things that cost the same between classes.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The TR can sell their gear for less and manage just fine because they can buy their gear for less. Every time they invoke, they are getting more buying power out of their ADs than the GWF. And there will be times that some class or another isn't around when gear for them drops, giving them just as much of a chance of getting those extra ADs as any other character.
Why you assume everyone buys Armor sets ?
I've never bought any set part on any char, and never will while i can get it with one DD hour from DD chest. Even if i can do few DDs per week, i will finish it in few weeks and it is still much faster than the old 9k GS is very high days (before m1) when it took wipe after wipe to finish a run.
But even so, the armor set is negligeble in the equpment part, Perfect vorpal costs a bit much and costs the same for everyone. Upgrading companions costs the same. Enchants cost the same..
So you showing that the least important part is cheaper.. the part that most people can see is not worth buying or binding.
While 90% of the costs are the same.
Thats great for the people who have time to wait for DD but it doesn't always come around. Some times i can only do 1 DD run a week so what thats the only time your allowed to use pieces. The people who believe that everyone should only sell BoE gear and just get all their gear from DD have way to much time to play this game. If a piece drops weather is BoP or BoE if its an upgrade i'm gonna wear it regardless, and who are you to tell others what to do with their items. These people who only sell BoP's care about one thing and one thing only watching their millions of AD go up, That is were all this time is more valuable blah blah blah bs, comes from is the people who when pieces drop only see $$ where as the average player just wants to upgrade their gear. I think its kinda sad that so many people only care about how much online wealth they acquire, and could care less about other players in the game. Because as stated by many in this thread, the only way their gonna help others new to dungeons is if their gonna get something out of it. For all the people who are gonna say that they deserve to get something out of it, how about the knowledge that they helped some others, i know it may be new to some of you but that is way more valuable then any amount of AD.
2. You yourself hindering your gearing, if you sell that item instead of binding you can buy that enchant that is more important and will help you to do that one dungeon per week you do.
But suit yourself...
3. You assume people that have millions run dungeons.... well, there is just a thread about there is no challenge in the content for geared people anymore few line below and nothing to do - some still run to help undergeared people and nothing more. Those that want to sell something are those that have the lesser vorpal (for example) and want to upgrade and need to buy c-wards.. or something else..
4. How many times one can help undergeared players with no weapon / armor enchants to run 5-6 dungeons per DD. only letting him have that 500k-1mil AD armor, he binds it, gets the same thing from DD chest immediately or next run and you can only facepalm, becouse he could have had lesser vorpal and lesser SF right now...
It is getting old, frustrating and with that attitude "we will do what we want, bind what we want and so on" I'm sure everyone will want to help..
Thats great for the people who have time to wait for DD but it doesn't always come around. Some times i can only do 1 DD run a week so what thats the only time your allowed to use pieces.
With the addition of Delve Keys in mod3, this is an entirely obsolete problem. Just buy a key (or get 1 free/day) and ANY TIME is Delve time.
Unfortunately i can't plan my game playing as i have may RL issues that come first, i game when the time is available. For example on Thursday DD runs from 4-5pm and 10-11pm so now your saying i must plan my game playing around that schedule... it might work for people with out any responsibilities but for adults in the real world that just isn't viable. Even with the key your not guaranteed to get the item x, believe me many times the key has wielded unusable items, last night for example got a belt worse then the one i have on. Oh and i have weapon and armor enchants on 2 chars fyi.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Unfortunately i can't plan my game playing as i have may RL issues that come first, i game when the time is available. For example on Thursday DD runs from 4-5pm and 10-11pm so now your saying i must plan my game playing around that schedule... it might work for people with out any responsibilities but for adults in the real world that just isn't viable.
No i was saying you dont need to wait for DD as you said, and you can save time and just log for DD when you do have time...
No need to put words into my mouth (or keyboard).
And taking only one line out of my god awful long posts is kinda.. hm....
Also please dont assume everyone is a child and dont have a job, responsibility, and so on.. most i play with are married, some have kids. full time jobs, businesses. We just patient (so it will take another month to level or gear or whatever), help each other (gearing players in all greens just with 8.3k straight into t2 and VT afterwards to save time and effort) and plan ahead, wasting AD by binding is one example of things not to do.. Those are the only runs i'm doing, to help others as others helped me before, and will help me with alts.. but it doesn't take away from the fact that when i leveled my green HR we split the loot as always (all greed on cheap stuff), because IMO it is just rude to need something and leave the people who helping you with nothing. But then again it is only my opinion..
Comments
That's exactly the point why kick while looting should be fixed. And yet so many people defend it. I really curse those people, that every pug group they join consist them and 4 guildies, who also like to ninja stuff.
Just because you say the current system is less fair, doesn't make it so. You guys really need to do the math and support your argument. I'm not totally against all greed. However, go make your premade greed run group and have a nice day. I do pug and I need what I need. Period.
I will iterate THE AD GRIND IS REAL.
Also on topic kicking while looting is bad. And you should feel bad if you do it.
I do think the idea to bind on need isnt terrible.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Finally someone understands what's going on.
Bind on need is in fact implemented in some other MMOs, which work like a charm.
Now the only issue with BoN in this game is that epic gear can be savaged for rough AD, that might still encourage people need for AD. I don't see it being a big problem, but it doesn't completely solve these people's problem of forcing people to not need.
The whole thing I was talking about is about pug runs. And also, please dude, you fail math.
I edit posts to quote relevant argument to make it clear, sorry but that easier for me. You will get your math and argument, though please apply the same standard and your former posts consist of "you fail" (not to me, erase that - you just "you fail" to me too) and nothing more.
2. I do premades and only permades, the one time few days ago when i thought to randomly queue and carry some one random to get his gear, people started betting on how fast i will be kicked as I'm a TR. regardless of DPS..
3. Have good day too.
great argument here between the F*** and fail...
i gave example of how game population dont reflect dungeon queues...
And you completly ignored run times and what i wrote, If we have one run per DD
no matter how many CWs you have and you claim it is 14% chance so we get most likely one, and one DC
The DC will have worse avarage.
For a very large population we will have two CW to fill the group and yet again DC got less.
Just curious, did you queue as CW and the queue never popped for you during DD ?
I gave the bind example in my own post. And people NEED an item is irrelevant, becouse i can't judge if they need it to sell or need it to equip or need it in theyr bank... everyone has needs .. what will prevent someone to need just becouse he need enchants and need the AD for that ?
search this same topic (there were many threads about need/greed) and you will see players claiming exactly this. "I will need couse i want to sell and need the AD"
Just to clerify if a person asks to need an item and bind it, in all groups i've been to it was not an issuem but the main problem is it is also not the right thing to do, he/she will get the bound item from the chest and will profit more from selling so it is mainly good idea for sets like Hirmirs rings and amulet. Binding set items is just a loss of AD.
I've never seen any TR being kicked, without a reason (like low gs or doing stupid things.), but that's irrelevant. Again I'm not even talking about premade runs here, so please don't argue with me any more if you talk about premade runs. You can do whatever you want in premade runs, as long as everyone agrees.
I'M TALKING ABOUT PUG RUNS. Please leave me alone if u are not talking about pug runs.
Thank for very much for understanding what's going on.... I read through the thread and many posts make me face/palm because they sound like they didn't read through my post at all but just responded to the title of the thread, stuffing it with whatever comes up in their head. In a pug made from the queue system, with many people don't even speak English, the loot and kick systems will have the ultimate control of everything. With a queue system already in place, I don't think why we shouldn't use it and be able to enjoy it. Those who mentioned LFG (wastes way too much time with people picking gs and classes), legit (no one seems to care about FC), and guild runs are totally off topic.
LOL, the people talking about premades don't realize they can just walk into the instance (instead they use the que after making the group) and thus the leader can kick anyone they want, without a vote. If they truly need to kick people, do it that way. The vote kicking while looting issue should be fixed.
Why do they need you to judge? yes they need to sell, so? you can need to sell too.
If it's a premade greed run, then no need is allowed at all, sure. If it's a pug run, who needs your judgement?
Yah I know you gave that suggestion, it isnt bad.
And Ive heard that reasoning before, but coming from people ALREADY geared. Someone not geared NEEDs the gear that dropped right in front of his face. He isnt greedy because he needs the extra AD. He NEEDs it for his character. And yes I agree you can never exactly tell what that persons true intentions are, but 1 lost drop cause you gave a random a piece of gear he did potentially need isnt going to make you or him the NW millionaire. If he/she does it often theyll make a name for themselves in a bad way.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
That just not correct. You cannot enter any epic dungeon. And leader cannot kick anyone without a vote. Kicking without a vote is only possible in skirmishes.
have you run epics ?
According to those people's logic, even if you need the gear as you can use it right away, should just roll greed. Then sell whatever you win and buy your gear from AH. what kinda crappy logic this is....
Ok I will take that. Ya I was wrong, forgot you can't walk into epic dungeons. And no, I don't do premades, I only run pug. Epic of course.
Yes and no, many people just need and the population is big enoughs to that name to get lost..
In real runs there is the DD chest that will give you the gear you (general you) actually need to gear and it will be already bound, so the whole other items are actually worth more to sell than to gear even if it fits and you dont have it.
Using unbound item that can drop from the chest is just not a good idea..
Specially for gearing people that are usually extrimly low on AD, so it is a double edged sword.
The idea to add greed all (and the other loot options) as a vote when entering to dungeons looks to me as the most viable option, those that want it can have it those that dont can ignore it.
It will prevent the ninja looting in greed groups and allow geared people to actually help pugs to get DD chest, by giving incentive for geard people to include pugs in premades or even queue.
The logic where one item worth much more than another and some are not worth buying when you can run a dungeon and get it for free from the DD chest.
But please be rude...
Its AD farmers logic. I can see both sides. But one has to give. And if the person legitimately needs (and given the particular circumstances of this instance - pug, no prior agreement on loots, you actually NEED the item), its perfectly acceptable to need. Then you got kicked which shouldnt be acceptable under those circumstances.
Thats perfectly fine. Such an idea would be good for the greed runners. BUT again given the particular circumstances, I see nothing wrong. I may of personally asked first, out of courtesy. But he needed an item in a pug with no prior arrangements on the loot while actually needing it? Does that really sound out of line?
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
ok, ur wasting my time. ive already said this in another post. on this very thread. that op was unfairly kicked. since no claim was made, even upon entry of the party that it was greed run. and that was the parties own mistake of having forgotten to specify it. if un specified - then no one should be kicked. and in my case - when it not specified. instead of blindly needing an item i ask before the pt " is this need or greed" this avoids any miscommunication/ awkward situation where someone gets unfairly kicked when no mention of loot rolls was made.
The queue system is bad exactly because what happened to you, the fact that 2 can kick all the rest of the team, and loot mode can;t be enforced (what the argument came from). (and a premade can join a pug and kick him)
They should have told you the loot rules, you should have asked, anyway not much to add, and as you yourself wrote it is not the first time on the forums and unfortunately not the last some one will encounter.
Doing GG (when adding a pug to group) some pople auto greed without being told, some ask, some need, many do look for greed runs.
The question what to do with it, and imo, voting for loot mode is the best option and making the kick option as a normal majority. And no kicking during open rolls or in combat ( to prevent someone looking at the loot and kicking the pug ) .
Those changes are enough to make everyone happy, imo.
No disagreement from me.
And never claimed it was ok what happened to the OP, it was a communication problem and an unfair kick and not the greed system being better or worse than need/greed/pass.
The game made it like that. If the items were BoP or if they weren't so valuable this wouldn't happen. If people actually used the item they were rolling need this wouldn't be seen as bad conduct; most people are greedy, understand this.
Greedy attitudes are everywhere. If you don't tolerate them I think you shouldn't go outside.
They're tooltips, they don't mean anything. The configuration is Need>Greed>Pass.
I can need the item for AD, doesn't change anything. I still think the default choice, if no one point anything, is Greed. Using Need generally makes you look bad.
But I see other peoples logic, there has to be an option that if the system allows a pug to join and existing group that has not contributed, they should not get any type of roll on the final boss.
Everyone sees every piece of gear as useful. It's either an upgrade to equip or it's a pile of AD waiting to happen.
But unless it is set up in advance, I see nothing wrong with people needing on gear for their class, and especially if they plan on equipping that gear.
So what if the TR thinks that they could sell that GWF item for a pile of ADs? That TR can need on any TR gear that drops and sell it if they want. TR gear doesn't sell for as much? Then they can get equipped cheaper. The TR doesn't need the GWF gear as mush as the GWF does, even if the GWF just wants to sell it. They need those extra ADs more.
The TR can sell their gear for less and manage just fine because they can buy their gear for less. Every time they invoke, they are getting more buying power out of their ADs than the GWF. And there will be times that some class or another isn't around when gear for them drops, giving them just as much of a chance of getting those extra ADs as any other character.
Now I don't know who's gear sells for most and who's sells for least, so before anyone gets all bent out of shape over the above example, it is just that. Change out the classes and the point remains.
=============
All that said, I am in favor of more tools to fine tune loot distribution.
I have never cared for master looter, but if guild memebers are okay with the guild leader deciding who gets what gear, then that's their business.
At a minimum they should add a "greed only" option that can be set up before things begin, and that once set can only be changed by unanimous vote.
At least that way you would know the deal going in. Want the freedom to need on class gear? Find another group of like-minded individuals.
Further, I agree that there should be limits on kicking. No player should be subject to the whims of another when it comes to PUGs.
The needed changes have been pretty much covered:
1) No kicking with loot being decided.
2) No kicking during or within 15-20 seconds after a fight. That should give a player time enough to get to a chest or whatever to get the loot on the table.
3) Kicking requires a unanimous vote of the other players. No, group leader, you can not kick someone just so you can bring that friend in that just logged on to take their place. At least not unless the entire group agrees, at which point the group is just a bunch of jerks and to heck with them, anyway.
You freeze those folks out from loot and fewer players, if any, will be willing to jump in to dungeons that are already in progress, or they will join and then quit, possibly after the fight has started leaving everyone else in a bind.
this is a spot where i'd kick if he tried to roll greed... or anything except pass.
just gonna chime in with my 2 cents of repeated statements. all you guys who are arguing on the OP's side simply don't play the game enough. you have your opinions, yes, lovely, you're entitled to them and all that, but you don't know what you're talking about. the best way to gear up in this game is just to run dungeons (t1 and t2) during dungeon delves. every class has the same cost to gear up, and that cost should be some hours of your time, roughly 0 AD, and 0 zen.
It is a good thing the TR gets discounts on enchantments and doesn't need those AD as much as the GWF...oh wait , they don't?
Cheap gear is great, but there are many other things that cost the same between classes.
Why you assume everyone buys Armor sets ?
I've never bought any set part on any char, and never will while i can get it with one DD hour from DD chest. Even if i can do few DDs per week, i will finish it in few weeks and it is still much faster than the old 9k GS is very high days (before m1) when it took wipe after wipe to finish a run.
But even so, the armor set is negligeble in the equpment part, Perfect vorpal costs a bit much and costs the same for everyone. Upgrading companions costs the same. Enchants cost the same..
So you showing that the least important part is cheaper.. the part that most people can see is not worth buying or binding.
While 90% of the costs are the same.
1. You have the key option.
And, btw you dont need to wait:
https://drunkenmmo.com/neverwinter-game/events
2. You yourself hindering your gearing, if you sell that item instead of binding you can buy that enchant that is more important and will help you to do that one dungeon per week you do.
But suit yourself...
3. You assume people that have millions run dungeons.... well, there is just a thread about there is no challenge in the content for geared people anymore few line below and nothing to do - some still run to help undergeared people and nothing more. Those that want to sell something are those that have the lesser vorpal (for example) and want to upgrade and need to buy c-wards.. or something else..
4. How many times one can help undergeared players with no weapon / armor enchants to run 5-6 dungeons per DD. only letting him have that 500k-1mil AD armor, he binds it, gets the same thing from DD chest immediately or next run and you can only facepalm, becouse he could have had lesser vorpal and lesser SF right now...
It is getting old, frustrating and with that attitude "we will do what we want, bind what we want and so on" I'm sure everyone will want to help..
With the addition of Delve Keys in mod3, this is an entirely obsolete problem. Just buy a key (or get 1 free/day) and ANY TIME is Delve time.
No i was saying you dont need to wait for DD as you said, and you can save time and just log for DD when you do have time...
No need to put words into my mouth (or keyboard).
And taking only one line out of my god awful long posts is kinda.. hm....
Also please dont assume everyone is a child and dont have a job, responsibility, and so on.. most i play with are married, some have kids. full time jobs, businesses. We just patient (so it will take another month to level or gear or whatever), help each other (gearing players in all greens just with 8.3k straight into t2 and VT afterwards to save time and effort) and plan ahead, wasting AD by binding is one example of things not to do.. Those are the only runs i'm doing, to help others as others helped me before, and will help me with alts.. but it doesn't take away from the fact that when i leveled my green HR we split the loot as always (all greed on cheap stuff), because IMO it is just rude to need something and leave the people who helping you with nothing. But then again it is only my opinion..