It depends on how you look at it. Before you enter that dungeon, you know you will win 20% of all items, and you cannot know how many items will drop before the epic one drops
Problem is that only the epic one and sometimes the shards are important. The greens etc, while useful for gold at times, could also not even be there and I wouldn't care. There are easier quicker ways to farm gold and rank 4's for rp. Those items literally do not matter one bit.
However when I do see someone needing a green trash item, I do get nervous because it means they'll probably need the purple too. So in that case it's not the green item mattering but the green item serving as a predictor of bad behavior.
As for rolling greed or need, they should make it that IF you roll need, it will become bound to character. You can't sell it on the AH, you can't give it to alts. While however you can still vendor it for gold, it's not as worthwhile.
This is, perhaps, the best idea I've seen on this topic.
As for rolling greed or need, they should make it that IF you roll need, it will become bound to character. You can't sell it on the AH, you can't give it to alts. While however you can still vendor it for gold, it's not as worthwhile.
As for dungeon finder utility, I don't expect it to always be a greed run, unless it's agreed upon at entry. Not saying that I roll need, I normally wait to see what someone rolls first then follow suit. While DD hour and key help gear people up faster, we have to remember that there are still fresh 60's that actually need gear too. Hence I don't get in a wad if someone rolls need though most likely it's probably going to wind up on the AH.
As for kicking people, it should be disabled during and shortly after combat and during loot rolls.
100% agree with you said.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited July 2014
Meh.. I dont see much kicked at ALL , maybe once a month total. Secondly I contend, there is nothing that needs to be needed by anyone in game. Any item that is a true value, is also a true value to all concerned.
People would just need and sell for gold, they figure its better for them to get a few gold then someone else to get the AD.
Just add a ALL GREED only function in game , this solves most of issues we are discussing here.
Meh.. I dont see much kicked at ALL , maybe once a month total. Secondly I contend, there is nothing that needs to be needed by anyone in game. Any item that is a true value, is also a true value to all concerned.
People would just need and sell for gold, they figure its better for them to get a few gold then someone else to get the AD.
Just add a ALL GREED only function in game , this solves most of issues we are discussing here.
It would only discourage people, especially new toons to run dungeons. why? because you can't gear up from it. How ridiculous it is that your class gear dropped, some other class wins it and you have to buy from AH? How do you think a full blue gear toon would gear up towards full epic gear? By buying from AH? are you freaking kidding me? Anyone not over geared for any dungeons run DD to gear up. Just think again where you got your whole epic set? from AH?
People are out of their mind these days.
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shavaruinMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 32Arc User
edited July 2014
You know what errks me about this whole thread? Following the introduction to Daily Keys, A person is not expected to get their gear from drops. The chest at the end of the dungeon has a 10% (seems much higher) chance to drop the equipment you need.
The gear that drops from bosses are BoE which is almost exclusively created to be sold to people who have a bunch of ad, and are making toons and cannot be bothered to run the T2s / T1s themselves.
What I want to know, what could have possibly dropped in VT that the OP clicked need on. I'm assuming it was some T2 equipment that would sell for a pretty penny.
It's like you choose to run CN, and a boss drops the ancient berserker's ring of cleaving. I would NOT tolerate someone clicking need on that item, and if they stated they 'needed' it, I would implore them to either 1) run with a guild or 2) settle for a grand, which goes for 50% of the price, for 12 points of stats lower. It's not reasonable for me to assume they would just /equip/ something so valuable, and if they truly just want it to equip, then they are probably BiS in most other slots, and can gosh darn well afford buying it off the market.
Once again, this is my mindset, and I can't stand people who can't run a dungeon more than once because they think their time is so valuable that they are entitled to 100% receive the most expensive equipment as they are playing the FoTM class that has the most expensive equipment.
If you play GWF, you don't automatically get the prestige to 100% acquire the most expensive equipment because "need" isn't ghosted out.
I personally ran VT 1/2 and 2/2 118 times before I successfully won my Fallen dragon offhand. I decided it was worth doing, and though it angered me beyond belief and I even took a little bit of time off, I spent that time grinding.
Personally, my second toon was a GF and I bought all my equipment off the AH cause my first toon could afford it, that's my prerogative. I would never run in a dungeon and click need on a BoE purple item, it's like stealing from the other 4 people who spent the time to run through that dungeon. They deserve equal opportunity to get a chance at selling that item to people who can afford to buy it. Then they grind some T2s and get their BiS equipment from the chest, as it's BoP and worthwhile to equip.
EDIT : formatting
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
Meh.. I dont see much kicked at ALL , maybe once a month total. Secondly I contend, there is nothing that needs to be needed by anyone in game. Any item that is a true value, is also a true value to all concerned.
People would just need and sell for gold, they figure its better for them to get a few gold then someone else to get the AD.
Just add a ALL GREED only function in game , this solves most of issues we are discussing here.
Here's the problem - the definition of "need" has been skewed so much, and the game is mature enough, that most people run dungeons strictly for profit, and not to directly gear up the character that is running said dungeon.
What is needed is a sort of "is this better than what you have now" type of loot option, where if a player is running dungeon for the express purpose of gearing up, they can get said loot, (which would be BoP in this case), so they can better equip themselves.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
You know what errks me about this whole thread? Following the introduction to Daily Keys, A person is not expected to get their gear from drops. The chest at the end of the dungeon has a 10% (seems much higher) chance to drop the equipment you need.
The gear that drops from bosses are BoE which is almost exclusively created to be sold to people who have a bunch of ad, and are making toons and cannot be bothered to run the T2s / T1s themselves.
What I want to know, what could have possibly dropped in VT that the OP clicked need on. I'm assuming it was some T2 equipment that would sell for a pretty penny.
It's like you choose to run CN, and a boss drops the ancient berserker's ring of cleaving. I would NOT tolerate someone clicking need on that item, and if they stated they 'needed' it, I would implore them to either 1) run with a guild or 2) settle for a grand, which goes for 50% of the price, for 12 points of stats lower. It's not reasonable for me to assume they would just /equip/ something so valuable, and if they truly just want it to equip, then they are probably BiS in most other slots, and can gosh darn well afford buying it off the market.
Once again, this is my mindset, and I can't stand people who can't run a dungeon more than once because they think their time is so valuable that they are entitled to 100% receive the most expensive equipment as they are playing the FoTM class that has the most expensive equipment.
If you play GWF, you don't automatically get the prestige to 100% acquire the most expensive equipment because "need" isn't ghosted out.
I personally ran VT 1/2 and 2/2 118 times before I successfully won my Fallen dragon offhand. I decided it was worth doing, and though it angered me beyond belief and I even took a little bit of time off, I spent that time grinding.
Personally, my second toon was a GF and I bought all my equipment off the AH cause my first toon could afford it, that's my prerogative. I would never run in a dungeon and click need on a BoE purple item, it's like stealing from the other 4 people who spent the time to run through that dungeon. They deserve equal opportunity to get a chance at selling that item to people who can afford to buy it. Then they grind some T2s and get their BiS equipment from the chest, as it's BoP and worthwhile to equip.
EDIT : formatting
The point is, doesn't matter what people need the gears for. If your class gear drops, go ahead need it. You want to sell it, sell it. You want to equip it, equip it.
Some people claim that CW/GWF/HR gears worth more. Yes, but it's more likely to have more than one of the same class in one group. So in the end, everyone needing would just be fair, and without all those fuzz about rolling greed.
AND most importantly, kicking while looting is not a solution for any of the issues that are discussed in this thread. Please disable kicking while rolling for loot.
so u can silently steal the loot? nice
lets be clear. unless your a ****. most of the loot bosses drop U WONT WEAR IT. if ur a ****, then you prob have **** gear so boss loot is better then your junk.
now, if u not a **** then the item that drop U WONT WEAR IT = U WILL SELL IT. if people do greed runs - its because they want to profit and sell the gear that drops. to make those runs fair for everyone - the party agrees to GREED epics.
like i mentione din my post earlier. this concept of greed runs seems ridicoulous to new lvl 60 who have **** gear and want to wear eveything the boss drops for thier class. and like i said before DUNGEON DELVES has the best sets for class. so idk why ur needing FC drops.
lastly. if u are going to sell the drops , like the rest of the party - then just because the drop belongs to ur class doesnt mean u deserve to get the item at 100% chance. the whole pt worked for the boss fight so everyone should GREED to make it fair that everyone has a chance to loot and make a bit of AD.
again since u people fail to understand the concept THIS IS NOT FOR PLAYERS UNDER LVL 60. and noobs seem to have a hard time to understand the logic because they actually NEED THE GEAR - in that case go in pts that need - where everyone is **** gear and everyone needs for thier class. greed runs is to make AD profit. if u dont understand this DONT JOIN GREED RUNS. THIER NOT FOR NOOBS.
Some people claim that CW/GWF/HR gears worth more. Yes, but it's more likely to have more than one of the same class in one group. So in the end, everyone needing would just be fair, and without all those fuzz about rolling greed.
so... ur ASSUMING that all parties have more of one class.... lol wtf. do u know how many times ive run parties with my HR and there was another HR? ALMOST NEVER. so because im the only hr. and a miracle hr gear drops at DK i am entitled to that 500k ad and the other 4 ppl can suck it? ur a greedy person and i will block you if i ever see u in game. just because ur class drops doesnt mean ur entitled to it. everyone worked for the dungeon and everyone deserves equal chance at getting the ad loot. now let me ask you. are u a new level 60? if so u proved my point that new players fail to undestand the economy and the reason behind greed runs. IF U DONT LIKE GREED RUNS DONT JOIN THEM PERIOD.
so u can silently steal the loot? nice
lets be clear. unless your a ****. most of the loot bosses drop U WONT WEAR IT. if ur a ****, then you prob have **** gear so boss loot is better then your junk.
now, if u not a **** then the item that drop U WONT WEAR IT = U WILL SELL IT. if people do greed runs - its because they want to profit and sell the gear that drops. to make those runs fair for everyone - the party agrees to GREED epics.
like i mentione din my post earlier. this concept of greed runs seems ridicoulous to new lvl 60 who have **** gear and want to wear eveything the boss drops for thier class. and like i said before DUNGEON DELVES has the best sets for class. so idk why ur needing FC drops.
lastly. if u are going to sell the drops , like the rest of the party - then just because the drop belongs to ur class doesnt mean u deserve to get the item at 100% chance. the whole pt worked for the boss fight so everyone should GREED to make it fair that everyone has a chance to loot and make a bit of AD.
again since u people fail to understand the concept THIS IS NOT FOR PLAYERS UNDER LVL 60. and noobs seem to have a hard time to understand the logic because they actually NEED THE GEAR - in that case go in pts that need - where everyone is **** gear and everyone needs for thier class. greed runs is to make AD profit. if u dont understand this DONT JOIN GREED RUNS. THIER NOT FOR NOOBS.
We are not even talking about premade greed runs. If the whole group agrees on geed run, then sure. We are talking about pug runs here. You have to understand, not everybody goes by your rules, especially the rules that you seemingly pull out of your butt.
If someone has 17k gs and yet still decide to roll need on T1 gear, so that he can sell it on AH. What on earth is wrong with that? When you go all greed, don't you sell in AH too? what's the difference? That person can roll need on his class gear, so can you. What's wrong with it?
Just because you want to sell other classes gear on AH, doesn't mean they have to let you. quit being selfish alright?
How is round robin a good solution?
You have to grind 5 dungeons to get a chance at some gear?
Do you leave after you get your gear and let the other people in group grind their gear alone or do you stick it out for 5 dungeons to get em all that gear?
Hitting "Greed" solves it.
Everyone gets a fair chance at the payoff for the dungeon.
Your whole argument is that people who vote "greed" and give everyone the same chance at the item are being greedy because you are the one that needs it. Bad argument is bad.
You guys go ahead and keep hitting need in dungeons and getting kicked.
Keep starting threads about how your feelings are hurt because you ninja'd the gear at the end of the dungeon and now nobody wants to play with you.
I'll leave it to someone else to explain why people don't want to play with you in dungeons.
To which you'll reply "but i needed it and he didn't" never getting the point that noone cares whether you need it as little as you care whether they need it.
I'm done with the subject, but word of advice. Stop hitting "need" because as much as you may feel like you are 'winning' this thread...it will do nothing to keep you from getting kicked from dungeons and trolled in zone chat as a greedy ninja.
If the system mechanics are designed to favor people who need over greed, then they have every right to need an item they need. Just because YOU say differently doesn't make it so.
That being said, all this arguing and confusion could easily be put to rest with a Greed Only loot option. Or if you really want to make it "fair" Have a chest for each person at the end, with a 20% rng that it will hold an epic item. Sometimes all 5 people in a dungeon could walk out happy, sometimes nobody. Everything else would be rolled on as greed.
Edit: Also the bind on character on a need roll is a GREAT idea. Make it so it can't be sold/salvaged or traded. Perfect answer.
By giving every one a chance at the gear he is being selfish?
LOL...your logic escapes even you.
By denying people's exclusive right to their own class gear is selfish. Plus, why would you want other classes' gear anyway? Need and sell your own class gear does the same trick.
If the system mechanics are designed to favor people who need over greed, then they have every right to need an item they need. Just because YOU say differently doesn't make it so.
That being said, all this arguing and confusion could easily be put to rest with a Greed Only loot option. Or if you really want to make it "fair" Have a chest for each person at the end, with a 20% rng that it will hold an epic item. Sometimes all 5 people in a dungeon could walk out happy, sometimes nobody. Everything else would be rolled on as greed.
There are people out there are so self centered that they want the whole world go their way. When they say, everyone SHOULD JUST GREED, you get kicked if u don't. FFS if it's a premade greed run, sure. But if it's a pug run, who cares about those people? Just hit need whenever you can.
By denying people's exclusive right to their own class gear is selfish. Plus, why would you want other classes' gear anyway? Need and sell your own class gear does the same trick.
Because I went through the same dungeon as the next guy. I don't care what class he is, he gets same chance at the prize.
Thinking you deserve the prize at the end due to it being your class will get you kicked from group.
No amount of crying on the forum will change that.
Because I went through the same dungeon as the next guy. I don't care what class he is, he gets same chance at the prize.
Thinking you deserve the prize at the end due to it being your class will get you kicked from group.
No amount of crying on the forum will change that.
You either fail at math or have no logic.
The current system is as fair as all greed. There's simply no need of altering it. I'm sure you will keep supporting the current kicking system when you join a group and right after the last boss you realize those 4 people are from the same guild.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
We are not even talking about premade greed runs. If the whole group agrees on geed run, then sure. We are talking about pug runs here. You have to understand, not everybody goes by your rules, especially the rules that you seemingly pull out of your butt.
If someone has 17k gs and yet still decide to roll need on T1 gear, so that he can sell it on AH. What on earth is wrong with that? When you go all greed, don't you sell in AH too? what's the difference? That person can roll need on his class gear, so can you. What's wrong with it?
Just because you want to sell other classes gear on AH, doesn't mean they have to let you. quit being selfish alright?
Lets try an example and assume there are only DC and CW (total of 2 to simplify) in a party:
HV Tunic -> 500k add. DC HP Armor -> 100k. And the both have equal chance to drop: 5%
All Greed will yield every one an equal chance.
So on average each will make: (500k*0.05 + 100k*0.05 + 0k*0.90) /2 = 15k
so after about 50 runs each has 750k.
Now your idea:
CW will get 500*0.05 = 25k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
After 50 runs they will have:
CW: 1250k
DC 250k
hmmm.......
Can you spot something unfair here ?
Or perhaps selfish for the cw ?
They claim is you always have more cw and or GWFs and it will get equal chance is even more non realistic,
1. Perhaps it is new to you but people can actually finish dungeons without any CW or GWFs.
I know !
The shock !!
And definitely can do so with a single exemplar of them and not a horde.
2. Lets try with two CWs:
CW will get 500*0.05/2 = 12.5k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
After 50 runs they will have:
CW A: 625k
CW B: 625k
DC 250k
Looks completely fair to me....
Lets Try a CN roflstomp worthy group: 4 CW + 1 DC
CW will get 500*0.05/4 = 6.25k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
So After 50 runs:
CWs: 315.5K per CW
And DC is still behind at 250k.
Still not working...
BTW the price numbers are fresh from AH, and not something i just threw..
u seem to forget that by DENYONG OTHER CLASSES im denying mine also. if im a cw. i never nee don cw items. i am not selfish. i want everyone to have the same chance- this goes for even MY OWN CLASS ITEMS. ur argument is invalid lol. i cant be selfish if im greeding my own class item too -.- fken idiot
u seem to forget that by DENYONG OTHER CLASSES im denying mine also. if im a cw. i never nee don cw items. i am not selfish. i want everyone to have the same chance- this goes for even MY OWN CLASS ITEMS. ur argument is invalid lol. i cant be selfish if im greeding my own class item too -.- fken idiot
You have your right to give up your rights. You do not have the right to force others to give up theirs. You can come up with an agreement with them, thus premade greed run group. However, by no means any pug group should do greed runs.
Lets try an example and assume there are only DC and CW (total of 2 to simplify) in a party:
HV Tunic -> 500k add. DC HP Armor -> 100k. And the both have equal chance to drop: 5%
All Greed will yield every one an equal chance.
So on average each will make: (500k*0.05 + 100k*0.05 + 0k*0.90) /2 = 15k
so after about 50 runs each has 750k.
Now your idea:
CW will get 500*0.05 = 25k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
After 50 runs they will have:
CW: 1250k
DC 250k
hmmm.......
Can you spot something unfair here ?
Or perhaps selfish for the cw ?
They claim is you always have more cw and or GWFs and it will get equal chance is even more non realistic,
1. Perhaps it is new to you but people can actually finish dungeons without any CW or GWFs. I know ! The shock !!
And definitely can do so with a single exemplar of them and not a horde.
2. Lets try with two CWs:
CW will get 500*0.05/2 = 12.5k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
After 50 runs they will have:
CW A: 625k
CW B: 625k
DC 250k
You have your right to give up your rights. You do not have the right to force others to give up theirs. You can come up with an agreement with them, thus premade greed run group. However, by no means any pug group should do greed runs.
I agree with this. In a pug, needing is ok if its for your class. Cause you know.. maybe that person needing for his class actually needs it. And a pug with no prior agreed upon arrangement is open to whatever within reason (outside of reason, is being kicked because you needed on a piece of gear for your class)
You have your right to give up your rights. You do not have the right to force others to give up theirs. You can come up with an agreement with them, thus premade greed run group. However, by no means any pug group should do greed runs.
Nobody is forcing anybody to give up anything...except for the guy who hits need.
The guy who hits "Greed" is giving everyone an equal chance.
The guy who hits "need" is putting his own needs ahead of the group.
No matter how you think it equals out it does not.
Lets try an example and assume there are only DC and CW (total of 2 to simplify) in a party:
HV Tunic -> 500k add. DC HP Armor -> 100k. And the both have equal chance to drop: 5%
All Greed will yield every one an equal chance.
So on average each will make: (500k*0.05 + 100k*0.05 + 0k*0.90) /2 = 15k
so after about 50 runs each has 750k.
Now your idea:
CW will get 500*0.05 = 25k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
After 50 runs they will have:
CW: 1250k
DC 250k
hmmm.......
Can you spot something unfair here ?
Or perhaps selfish for the cw ?
They claim is you always have more cw and or GWFs and it will get equal chance is even more non realistic,
1. Perhaps it is new to you but people can actually finish dungeons without any CW or GWFs. I know ! The shock !!
And definitely can do so with a single exemplar of them and not a horde.
2. Lets try with two CWs:
CW will get 500*0.05/2 = 12.5k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
After 50 runs they will have:
CW A: 625k
CW B: 625k
DC 250k
How is your example remotely represent the current situation?
Here is a more realistic example:
If the whole population consists of 30% CW, 10% DC, 10% GF, thus 50% of all other dps classes (not real number, just as an example). So out of a 5 man group, there are 37.5% chance each dps spot being a CW, the chance of having at least 1 CW is 75.6% the chance of having 2 CW is 14.1% and the chance of having 3 CW is 5.3%, where as the chance of having more than 1 DC is 0. even with other dps class, the less percentage of the total population they consist, the less multiple of same class would appear in a group. Out of however many thousands of runs each day, the average winning chance of a CW would be the lowest among all other classes, in our specific example (again numbers aren't real here). Their gear value would be proportional to their population percentage, whereas their chance of winning is inversely proportional. Thus balance would automatically achieved among dps classes. As for GF and DC, they would have less que time, thus more chance of looting gear. In the end, supply and demand would balance the equation around class population.
So as players, don't you worry about the current system, you should really worry about NOT KICKING PEOPLE WHILE LOOTING. That is the real issue we are discussing here.
Nobody is forcing anybody to give up anything...except for the guy who hits need.
The guy who hits "Greed" is giving everyone an equal chance.
The guy who hits "need" is putting his own needs ahead of the group.
No matter how you think it equals out it does not.
You are forcing people to hit greed, and you say nobody is forcing anybody. *sigh.... Hitting greed means giving up the exclusive right to the class item i'm entitled to. Sorry you are forcing it. Just admit it.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited July 2014
There can be argument about kicking, about agreement and many things.
But one thing is sure, All Greed it is less selfish and more fair.
Thus is the suggestion of ALL GREED loot mode where you can either greed or pass And another suggestion is to make things bind on need, so the poor DC from my previous post wont jump to his death from a high place in PE.
How is your example remotely represent the current situation?
Here is a more realistic example:
If the whole population consists of 30% CW, 10% DC, 10% GF, thus 50% of all other dps classes (not real number, just as an example). So out of a 5 man group, there are 37.5% chance each dps spot being a CW, the chance of having at least 1 CW is 75.6% the chance of having 2 CW is 14.1% and the chance of having 3 CW is 5.3%, where as the chance of having more than 1 DC is 0. even with other dps class, the less percentage of the total population they consist, the less multiple of same class would appear in a group. Out of however many thousands of runs each day, the average winning chance of a CW would be the lowest among all other classes, in our specific example (again numbers aren't real here). Their gear value would be proportional to their population percentage, whereas their chance of winning is inversely proportional. Thus balance would automatically achieved among dps classes. As for GF and DC, they would have less que time, thus more chance of looting gear. In the end, supply and demand would balance the equation around class population.
So as players, don't you worry about the current system, you should really worry about NOT KICKING PEOPLE WHILE LOOTING. That is the real issue we are discussing here.
first my example represent about every run i've made since about mod1 or mod2
And we talk about hundreds of runs..
You took made up numbers and bring them as example... great.
1. Queue have mandatory spot for DC and GF regardless of population size.
And population size do not reflect people who do dungeons, i want to see al those perma TRs and PvP HRs in a dungon...
2. Less queue time is irrelevant to run time.
A person who playes a hour per day will have lets say 3 run regardless if he queued for a second or 5 minutes.
I agree with this. In a pug, needing is ok if its for your class. Cause you know.. maybe that person needing for his class actually needs it. And a pug with no prior agreed upon arrangement is open to whatever within reason (outside of reason, is being kicked because you needed on a piece of gear for your class)
That's exactly the point why kick while looting should be fixed. And yet so many people defend it. I really curse those people, that every pug group they join consist them and 4 guildies, who also like to ninja stuff.
There can be argument about kicking, about agreement and many things.
But one thing is sure, All Greed it is less selfish and more fair.
Thus is the suggestion of ALL GREED loot mode where you can either greed or pass And another suggestion is to make things bind on need, so the poor DC from my previous post wont jump to his death from a high place in PE.
Just because you say the current system is less fair, doesn't make it so. You guys really need to do the math and support your argument. I'm not totally against all greed. However, go make your premade greed run group and have a nice day. I do pug and I need what I need. Period.
He doesnt get it. The AD grind is real. He's in it for "greed" not the opportunity to need because you need it. People seem to like to stack unnecessary RNG on top of an already RNG drop. A decent person would understand what you're trying to say. Like I need food to survive. I greed 4 pepperoni pizzas on a daily basis.
I will iterate THE AD GRIND IS REAL.
Also on topic kicking while looting is bad. And you should feel bad if you do it.
I do think the idea to bind on need isnt terrible.
Comments
Problem is that only the epic one and sometimes the shards are important. The greens etc, while useful for gold at times, could also not even be there and I wouldn't care. There are easier quicker ways to farm gold and rank 4's for rp. Those items literally do not matter one bit.
However when I do see someone needing a green trash item, I do get nervous because it means they'll probably need the purple too. So in that case it's not the green item mattering but the green item serving as a predictor of bad behavior.
This is, perhaps, the best idea I've seen on this topic.
100% agree with you said.
People would just need and sell for gold, they figure its better for them to get a few gold then someone else to get the AD.
Just add a ALL GREED only function in game , this solves most of issues we are discussing here.
It would only discourage people, especially new toons to run dungeons. why? because you can't gear up from it. How ridiculous it is that your class gear dropped, some other class wins it and you have to buy from AH? How do you think a full blue gear toon would gear up towards full epic gear? By buying from AH? are you freaking kidding me? Anyone not over geared for any dungeons run DD to gear up. Just think again where you got your whole epic set? from AH?
People are out of their mind these days.
The gear that drops from bosses are BoE which is almost exclusively created to be sold to people who have a bunch of ad, and are making toons and cannot be bothered to run the T2s / T1s themselves.
What I want to know, what could have possibly dropped in VT that the OP clicked need on. I'm assuming it was some T2 equipment that would sell for a pretty penny.
It's like you choose to run CN, and a boss drops the ancient berserker's ring of cleaving. I would NOT tolerate someone clicking need on that item, and if they stated they 'needed' it, I would implore them to either 1) run with a guild or 2) settle for a grand, which goes for 50% of the price, for 12 points of stats lower. It's not reasonable for me to assume they would just /equip/ something so valuable, and if they truly just want it to equip, then they are probably BiS in most other slots, and can gosh darn well afford buying it off the market.
Once again, this is my mindset, and I can't stand people who can't run a dungeon more than once because they think their time is so valuable that they are entitled to 100% receive the most expensive equipment as they are playing the FoTM class that has the most expensive equipment.
If you play GWF, you don't automatically get the prestige to 100% acquire the most expensive equipment because "need" isn't ghosted out.
I personally ran VT 1/2 and 2/2 118 times before I successfully won my Fallen dragon offhand. I decided it was worth doing, and though it angered me beyond belief and I even took a little bit of time off, I spent that time grinding.
Personally, my second toon was a GF and I bought all my equipment off the AH cause my first toon could afford it, that's my prerogative. I would never run in a dungeon and click need on a BoE purple item, it's like stealing from the other 4 people who spent the time to run through that dungeon. They deserve equal opportunity to get a chance at selling that item to people who can afford to buy it. Then they grind some T2s and get their BiS equipment from the chest, as it's BoP and worthwhile to equip.
EDIT : formatting
Here's the problem - the definition of "need" has been skewed so much, and the game is mature enough, that most people run dungeons strictly for profit, and not to directly gear up the character that is running said dungeon.
What is needed is a sort of "is this better than what you have now" type of loot option, where if a player is running dungeon for the express purpose of gearing up, they can get said loot, (which would be BoP in this case), so they can better equip themselves.
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Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
The point is, doesn't matter what people need the gears for. If your class gear drops, go ahead need it. You want to sell it, sell it. You want to equip it, equip it.
Some people claim that CW/GWF/HR gears worth more. Yes, but it's more likely to have more than one of the same class in one group. So in the end, everyone needing would just be fair, and without all those fuzz about rolling greed.
AND most importantly, kicking while looting is not a solution for any of the issues that are discussed in this thread. Please disable kicking while rolling for loot.
lets be clear. unless your a ****. most of the loot bosses drop U WONT WEAR IT. if ur a ****, then you prob have **** gear so boss loot is better then your junk.
now, if u not a **** then the item that drop U WONT WEAR IT = U WILL SELL IT. if people do greed runs - its because they want to profit and sell the gear that drops. to make those runs fair for everyone - the party agrees to GREED epics.
like i mentione din my post earlier. this concept of greed runs seems ridicoulous to new lvl 60 who have **** gear and want to wear eveything the boss drops for thier class. and like i said before DUNGEON DELVES has the best sets for class. so idk why ur needing FC drops.
lastly. if u are going to sell the drops , like the rest of the party - then just because the drop belongs to ur class doesnt mean u deserve to get the item at 100% chance. the whole pt worked for the boss fight so everyone should GREED to make it fair that everyone has a chance to loot and make a bit of AD.
again since u people fail to understand the concept THIS IS NOT FOR PLAYERS UNDER LVL 60. and noobs seem to have a hard time to understand the logic because they actually NEED THE GEAR - in that case go in pts that need - where everyone is **** gear and everyone needs for thier class. greed runs is to make AD profit. if u dont understand this DONT JOIN GREED RUNS. THIER NOT FOR NOOBS.
so... ur ASSUMING that all parties have more of one class.... lol wtf. do u know how many times ive run parties with my HR and there was another HR? ALMOST NEVER. so because im the only hr. and a miracle hr gear drops at DK i am entitled to that 500k ad and the other 4 ppl can suck it? ur a greedy person and i will block you if i ever see u in game. just because ur class drops doesnt mean ur entitled to it. everyone worked for the dungeon and everyone deserves equal chance at getting the ad loot. now let me ask you. are u a new level 60? if so u proved my point that new players fail to undestand the economy and the reason behind greed runs. IF U DONT LIKE GREED RUNS DONT JOIN THEM PERIOD.
We are not even talking about premade greed runs. If the whole group agrees on geed run, then sure. We are talking about pug runs here. You have to understand, not everybody goes by your rules, especially the rules that you seemingly pull out of your butt.
If someone has 17k gs and yet still decide to roll need on T1 gear, so that he can sell it on AH. What on earth is wrong with that? When you go all greed, don't you sell in AH too? what's the difference? That person can roll need on his class gear, so can you. What's wrong with it?
Just because you want to sell other classes gear on AH, doesn't mean they have to let you. quit being selfish alright?
LOL...your logic escapes even you.
If the system mechanics are designed to favor people who need over greed, then they have every right to need an item they need. Just because YOU say differently doesn't make it so.
That being said, all this arguing and confusion could easily be put to rest with a Greed Only loot option. Or if you really want to make it "fair" Have a chest for each person at the end, with a 20% rng that it will hold an epic item. Sometimes all 5 people in a dungeon could walk out happy, sometimes nobody. Everything else would be rolled on as greed.
Edit: Also the bind on character on a need roll is a GREAT idea. Make it so it can't be sold/salvaged or traded. Perfect answer.
By denying people's exclusive right to their own class gear is selfish. Plus, why would you want other classes' gear anyway? Need and sell your own class gear does the same trick.
There are people out there are so self centered that they want the whole world go their way. When they say, everyone SHOULD JUST GREED, you get kicked if u don't. FFS if it's a premade greed run, sure. But if it's a pug run, who cares about those people? Just hit need whenever you can.
Because I went through the same dungeon as the next guy. I don't care what class he is, he gets same chance at the prize.
Thinking you deserve the prize at the end due to it being your class will get you kicked from group.
No amount of crying on the forum will change that.
You either fail at math or have no logic.
The current system is as fair as all greed. There's simply no need of altering it. I'm sure you will keep supporting the current kicking system when you join a group and right after the last boss you realize those 4 people are from the same guild.
Lets try an example and assume there are only DC and CW (total of 2 to simplify) in a party:
HV Tunic -> 500k add. DC HP Armor -> 100k. And the both have equal chance to drop: 5%
All Greed will yield every one an equal chance.
So on average each will make: (500k*0.05 + 100k*0.05 + 0k*0.90) /2 = 15k
so after about 50 runs each has 750k.
Now your idea:
CW will get 500*0.05 = 25k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
After 50 runs they will have:
CW: 1250k
DC 250k
hmmm.......
Can you spot something unfair here ?
Or perhaps selfish for the cw ?
They claim is you always have more cw and or GWFs and it will get equal chance is even more non realistic,
1. Perhaps it is new to you but people can actually finish dungeons without any CW or GWFs.
I know !
The shock !!
And definitely can do so with a single exemplar of them and not a horde.
2. Lets try with two CWs:
CW will get 500*0.05/2 = 12.5k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
After 50 runs they will have:
CW A: 625k
CW B: 625k
DC 250k
Looks completely fair to me....
Lets Try a CN roflstomp worthy group: 4 CW + 1 DC
CW will get 500*0.05/4 = 6.25k
DC will get 100*0.05 = 5k
So After 50 runs:
CWs: 315.5K per CW
And DC is still behind at 250k.
Still not working...
BTW the price numbers are fresh from AH, and not something i just threw..
hmmmmm...
perhaps try here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability
before making claims...
You have your right to give up your rights. You do not have the right to force others to give up theirs. You can come up with an agreement with them, thus premade greed run group. However, by no means any pug group should do greed runs.
^excellent mathmanship^...I was going to math it all out but , I ..er ..um...well, nice job.
I agree with this. In a pug, needing is ok if its for your class. Cause you know.. maybe that person needing for his class actually needs it. And a pug with no prior agreed upon arrangement is open to whatever within reason (outside of reason, is being kicked because you needed on a piece of gear for your class)
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Nobody is forcing anybody to give up anything...except for the guy who hits need.
The guy who hits "Greed" is giving everyone an equal chance.
The guy who hits "need" is putting his own needs ahead of the group.
No matter how you think it equals out it does not.
Any yet you argue you don't fail math.
How is your example remotely represent the current situation?
Here is a more realistic example:
If the whole population consists of 30% CW, 10% DC, 10% GF, thus 50% of all other dps classes (not real number, just as an example). So out of a 5 man group, there are 37.5% chance each dps spot being a CW, the chance of having at least 1 CW is 75.6% the chance of having 2 CW is 14.1% and the chance of having 3 CW is 5.3%, where as the chance of having more than 1 DC is 0. even with other dps class, the less percentage of the total population they consist, the less multiple of same class would appear in a group. Out of however many thousands of runs each day, the average winning chance of a CW would be the lowest among all other classes, in our specific example (again numbers aren't real here). Their gear value would be proportional to their population percentage, whereas their chance of winning is inversely proportional. Thus balance would automatically achieved among dps classes. As for GF and DC, they would have less que time, thus more chance of looting gear. In the end, supply and demand would balance the equation around class population.
So as players, don't you worry about the current system, you should really worry about NOT KICKING PEOPLE WHILE LOOTING. That is the real issue we are discussing here.
You are forcing people to hit greed, and you say nobody is forcing anybody. *sigh.... Hitting greed means giving up the exclusive right to the class item i'm entitled to. Sorry you are forcing it. Just admit it.
But one thing is sure, All Greed it is less selfish and more fair.
Thus is the suggestion of ALL GREED loot mode where you can either greed or pass And another suggestion is to make things bind on need, so the poor DC from my previous post wont jump to his death from a high place in PE.
first my example represent about every run i've made since about mod1 or mod2
And we talk about hundreds of runs..
You took made up numbers and bring them as example... great.
1. Queue have mandatory spot for DC and GF regardless of population size.
And population size do not reflect people who do dungeons, i want to see al those perma TRs and PvP HRs in a dungon...
2. Less queue time is irrelevant to run time.
A person who playes a hour per day will have lets say 3 run regardless if he queued for a second or 5 minutes.
3. Imo, Most of the dungeon population do not use the queue system to group.
Already wrote here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?700631-How-to-know-you-have-outgeared-the-content&p=8344491&viewfull=1#post8344491
And i want to see you make an LFG group as HR,TR,GF.
4. CW is a DPS class, you have 3 spots for those..
It's 5 AM i will edit later with an example.. of how a poor GF that can play one hour per day gonna get his 30% of the population worthless armor..
That's exactly the point why kick while looting should be fixed. And yet so many people defend it. I really curse those people, that every pug group they join consist them and 4 guildies, who also like to ninja stuff.
Just because you say the current system is less fair, doesn't make it so. You guys really need to do the math and support your argument. I'm not totally against all greed. However, go make your premade greed run group and have a nice day. I do pug and I need what I need. Period.
I will iterate THE AD GRIND IS REAL.
Also on topic kicking while looting is bad. And you should feel bad if you do it.
I do think the idea to bind on need isnt terrible.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas