I'm absolutely for reworking The Protector's capstone entirely, not enhancing its current functioning. It doesn't feel right that what is supposed to be the tankiest build of the tankiest class has a capstone that is activated by *attacking*, it feels more like a Conqueror's (minor, not capstone) feat.
Please try to make it useful by doing what Protectors do: defending. It should be a feat defensively empowering our block just like sentinel GWF capstone empowers (defensively) their unstoppable, maybe by giving us 90% block instead of 80%, or giving our block an AoE shielding effect, i.e. acting as a minor (20-25%) shield on our nearby allies
I think this is a good idea. Something along the lines of.
"Your block now affects nearby allies at 50% (meaning 40% since block is 80%). You protect allies within HAMSTER meters"
-so basically if an ally is near, your block can work for them at half efficiency. Heck combine that with Knights Valor and that would be pretty OP. Just an idea.
-I also wouldnt be against changing how you gain stacks for Reckless, assuming it had enough "uptime". So maybe they change it so its:
RECKLESS ATTACKER: <EDITED>Anytime you are hit in combat, or attack a foe with an encounter power, grants you a stack of reckless attacker. Each stacks grants 5% Damage and 2% Crit. Stacks 6 times.
This gives the GF control over how to gain stacks, makes it not super hard to get to max stacks and long enough duration where you cant just get perma kited and never gain stacks.... Just another idea...
RECKLESS ATTACKER: Attacking a foe grants you 10% damage and 4% crit. Stacks three times. Lasts 12 seconds. (heck id even take this if it was "your encounters grant you 10% dmg and 4% crit. stacks 3 times, but lasts 15 seconds - needs longer uptime then.
This gives the GF control over how to gain stacks, makes it not super hard to get to max stacks and long enough duration where you cant just get perma kited and never gain stacks.... Just another idea...
Ayroux, I agree with you for the protectors feat tree and skills, but not for the conq.
Let me explain why:
Try thinking about the conq spec'd players, well a few of us, as rogues;
1. I buff up, hit my target with mark, reduces their def
2. lunging strike, to close the distance
3. immed followed by tide of iron, reduces their def
4. followed by griffons wraith first strike
5. followed by anvil of doom
6. then second griffons wraith which if it is feated does increased damage
7. all this without being hit once
8. then I either move away and let the skills perk or wait til anvil perks if their hp is low enuf to finish them off
With the changes described I would have to wait, run in get hit 5 times for reckless to perk then try to run though the skills before it cools, all this to generate less damage then I am currently capable of generating, the skill changes are more suited to the protector tree, someone who is going to get smacked around while defending his party.
The conqueror spec'd players are squishier then the normal tanks,( we do not use the shield, doing that reduces our +100% power output) for us to get hit 5 times to perk a skill, we could be near death and have to evacuate the area to re pot. Then all we have accomplished is to run in get hit 5 times to perk a skill and because we got hit so hard we have to leave before doing any damage, it ruins the build.
It is burst damage, I must admit extremely high burst damage at that, perhaps not suited to PvP but for epic bosses it works great, for solo grinding it works great. We are not there it protect the group, although because of the high burst damage we do pull aggo from that alone quite a few times.
Guarded Assault
feedback: this skill since mod 1 has shall we all say been useless with a laughable 3% damage reflection, now well into mod 3 it is even more so considering players with high dr+tenacity+deflect that now brings it down to 0.5%(ballparking here) also if your protector spec you propably wont have a lot of ArPen so even mobs dont get reflected for alot. DEVs this skill needs to be brought up to date
several things that could are listed below now i dont mean it should do all these but just pick one anyone
1.increase it to 20% reflect damage
2.have it ignore all resistances(im in favor of this one.)
3.add it into protectors capstone and have it at 35% reflect
4.scrap it into something more usefull it's just taking up space in our skill tree
also a problem is it does not proc weapon enchantments at all yet it acts like regular damage to your foes I.E. they can deflect resist avoid ect ect. this needs to be fixed.
honestly whats the point of even spending 3 points into this skill if all it does is tickle for a measly 3 dmg each block
want to do something funny go against an HR with this slotted and watch how that 5 dmg you just reflected back gets deflected and his pvp set bonus procs makes for great lolz.
this skill needs a major overhaul/rework and im sure every GF can agree on this one we essentially have a useless class talent skill
Protector capstone
the protector capstone is 100x behind tact and conq we can all agree on this, no? the 1 point you would use to get it is better off being spent elsewhere on pretty much any other feat imo. it really should read something like
Iron Guard:
on every hit from an enemy, reduces it's damage by 2% up to a maximum of 10% and increases your deflect by 2/4/8%
instead we have
on every melee hit to an enemy you reduce it's damage by 2% up to 10%
more feedback
pfft. id rather take my 1 point and put it into something else this works well in pve but in pvp it's useless now before you all get going on "well it's not just a pvp game" i play both and i must say this could be so easy to balance with above change actually making it worthwhile to take.
or if the devs feel kind enough maybe just maybe they will scrap what it does and give us a complete re-work like reckless attacker fingures crossed.
I'm absolutely for reworking The Protector's capstone entirely, not enhancing its current functioning. It doesn't feel right that what is supposed to be the tankiest build of the tankiest class has a capstone that is activated by *attacking*, it feels more like a Conqueror's (minor, not capstone) feat.
Please try to make it useful by doing what Protectors do: defending. It should be a feat defensively empowering our block just like sentinel GWF capstone empowers (defensively) their unstoppable, maybe by giving us 90% block instead of 80%, or giving our block an AoE shielding effect, i.e. acting as a minor (20-25%) shield on our nearby allies
No, I don't like it, if we have 50% DR with the block we would be blocking 90% of the total damage, if the shield block the 90% of the incoming damage and we have 50% DR then we would be blocking 95% of the total damage, it would be just an increase of 5% DR while we are blocking and from attacks that come from the front, the only good thing would be the shield to our allies but that would be a nerf to our survability (we can make enemies attack -10% currently).
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stagger38Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 28Arc User
No, I don't like it, if we have 50% DR with the block we would be blocking 90% of the total damage, if the shield block the 90% of the incoming damage and we have 50% DR then we would be blocking 95% of the total damage, it would be just an increase of 5% DR while we are blocking and from attacks that come from the front, the only good thing would be the shield to our allies but that would be a nerf to our survability (we can make enemies attack -10% currently).
I've posted this before, but everyone was obsessing over conq feats at the time.
Iron Guard (capstone): When hit, reduce the attacker's damage by 2% for 30 seconds and gain 1 stack of Fortitude. Maximum 10% damage reduction. At 15 stacks of Fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing Hit Points. May only heal once every 5 seconds.
Self healing and enemy debuff when struck. Would fit nicely into a protector build imo.
EDIT: Possibly throw in some stamina regen at 15 stacks as well.
The problem with this new reckless attacker you are able to build full tank and reap the benefits of the conq path without having to gear yourself more offensively to get more damage and have less defense. This is going to be a terrible imbalance we will become the gwf of mod 3(minus the roar). Reason being that you just need to build full tank and take the conq path. the point of going for offensive gear sets ends with this there will be one size fits all builds more defense and ends diversity of builds. Especially due to the fact that mark gives 20% dr which is quite the offensive boost for pvp.
My suggestion is take the old reckless and meld the crit stacking from the current preview version where if you want to build higher damage at the cost of defensive stats.
With the current reckless there is a trade off which is what they have done to the gwf for mod 4 they forced a trade off by going for one capstone or the other. With the change to conq the point for getting power on all your gear disappears and we all become defensive builds, what I mean is you will never see the offensive stat point section be higher than the defensive one ever again.
This suggestion is to avoid the nerf hammer that will come from all the tears of people being owned in mod 4 by the unkillable tanks that toss out decent damage as well. Yea sure it will be great we destroy people in pvp like its nothing. Then the tears will flow and thus get another nerf hammer and its 1 year ago all over again YAY.
I've posted this before, but everyone was obsessing over conq feats at the time.
Iron Guard (capstone): When hit, reduce the attacker's damage by 2% for 30 seconds and gain 1 stack of Fortitude. Maximum 10% damage reduction. At 15 stacks of Fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing Hit Points. May only heal once every 5 seconds.
Self healing and enemy debuff when struck. Would fit nicely into a protector build imo.
EDIT: Possibly throw in some stamina regen at 15 stacks as well.
While your capstone suggestion sound nice - i really like the healing idea - it lack PvP/PvE duration. Due HD, it's 7,5%, second you need to hit 15 times... not so good. In PvE you will easy achieve that, but the damage reduction is not so fast achieved as before. Some mobs hit hard, but most time very slow. Now how many time they need to get all 5 debuffs? And the last one: It make our path NOT tankier! If you get rumbled, the +15% health use most time nothing! We need as protectors for our allies damage reduction, while ourself get buffed in DR. Heal can be on top of that, but not instead of one of these 2 important points!
I've posted this before, but everyone was obsessing over conq feats at the time.
Iron Guard (capstone): When hit, reduce the attacker's damage by 2% for 30 seconds and gain 1 stack of Fortitude. Maximum 10% damage reduction. At 15 stacks of Fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing Hit Points. May only heal once every 5 seconds.
Self healing and enemy debuff when struck. Would fit nicely into a protector build imo.
EDIT: Possibly throw in some stamina regen at 15 stacks as well.
Yea, that sounds very good.
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stagger38Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 28Arc User
While your capstone suggestion sound nice - i really like the healing idea - it lack PvP/PvE duration. Due HD, it's 7,5%, second you need to hit 15 times... not so good. In PvE you will easy achieve that, but the damage reduction is not so fast achieved as before. Some mobs hit hard, but most time very slow. Now how many time they need to get all 5 debuffs? And the last one: It make our path NOT tankier! If you get rumbled, the +15% health use most time nothing! We need as protectors for our allies damage reduction, while ourself get buffed in DR. Heal can be on top of that, but not instead of one of these 2 important points!
I primarily play PvE, skewing my opinion.
Admittedly, 10% heal for 15 hits every 5 seconds isn't very good, but no one likes to consider blatently OP things so I kept it low.
While your capstone suggestion sound nice - i really like the healing idea - it lack PvP/PvE duration. Due HD, it's 7,5%, second you need to hit 15 times... not so good. In PvE you will easy achieve that, but the damage reduction is not so fast achieved as before. Some mobs hit hard, but most time very slow. Now how many time they need to get all 5 debuffs? And the last one: It make our path NOT tankier! If you get rumbled, the +15% health use most time nothing! We need as protectors for our allies damage reduction, while ourself get buffed in DR. Heal can be on top of that, but not instead of one of these 2 important points!
If you apply -10% attack to the enemies you are protecting you and your party, now maybe 10% is low so it could be:
Apply 3% damage debuff (max 15%) to enemy and gain 1 stack of fortitude when hit. At 15 stacks of fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing HP (I think it should be more than 5 seconds ICD or it would be OP, with GPF ticks for example we would be healing a lot).
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited July 2014
Bug: Block
Block is not reducing movement speed.
Bug: Block
Block's effect is still not stacking with our defenses.
Feedback: Block Duration
The new duration of Block on the PTS is a lot better and it feels just about right.
Feedback: Protector Line
As it stands, this tree seem to lag behind compared to the others as it doesn't offer anything particularly worthwhile in its high-end feats. In particular, the following feats are lackluster and/or out of place and they are in dire need of a rework, not just a minor buff:
- Brawling Warrior
- Balanced Shield Fighter
- Overwhelming Impact
- Iron Guard
Ayroux, I agree with you for the protectors feat tree and skills, but not for the conq.
Yeah it was just an idea... Personally I like the "once you are hit, build a stack" idea OVER having to attack to build a stack. Ive found in most pvp games, you end up getting hit more than you hit. The downside there is it relies on others to hit you to gain your damage bonus which can be frustrating in PVP.
If you have it be on each time you hit someone else, it can also be frustrating if you are getting "kited" around a node, or even controlled and then lose stacks. Especially a class as immobile as the GF and the new CWs... So either of these have their "pros" and "cons"
I will say a class like a GWF has to get hit to build their stacks, which most GWFs never have much of an issue doing - partly because DEALING damage also helps gain determination, but there are MANY times (versus a perma or even DC) where you never build determination and it takes forever to get those stacks.
Overall, I am MORE in favor of being hit to gain stacks, maybe AN option would be actually a MIX of both?
- RECKLESS ATTACKER:
Anytime you are struck in combat OR hit an opponent with an encounter power, gain a stack of reckless attacker. Each stack provides 5% damage boost and 2% Crit. Stacks 6 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
This allows players to not only apply their own stacks, but also allows them ease of maintaining them. The 6 stacks allows for a higher "possible" dmg and crit than the PTR one currently does. So this would be a good middle ground I think.
ayroux:Yeah it was just an idea... Personally I like the "once you are hit, build a stack" idea OVER having to attack to build a stack. Ive found in most pvp games, you end up getting hit more than you hit. The downside there is it relies on others to hit you to gain your damage bonus which can be frustrating in PVP.
Right now we have to do neither, our power is constant at a +100% power increase, so our first strike though to our last includes that power bonus, unless we raise our shield.
Other games have tried this same procedure, gaining damage perks a skill. But in those games it was open conflict PvP so it was easy for let's say a cleric to remove their weapon, smack you around without doing much damage until the skill perked then you could go crazy.
But since this game isn't open world PvP and a team mate cannot target you, it becomes a matter of a mob or foe smacking you without mercy. Since the conq build does not utilize their shield, (so they can maintain the +100% power increase), you take too much damage before the skill perks to be able to do anything. It would be a constant run in get smacked, skill perks but opps too much damage I got to roll out to heal. SO in this scenario it forces us to start using a shield, that would be like us conq trying to implement a skill that forced you shield users to stop using your shield.
Can you understand what I am trying to say?
I'm not trying to be arrogant, nor trying to start an argument, just trying to present our side for discussion also and how this change to reckless attacker will really hurt the build. If they just change it to use stamina that's fine, but to completely re vamp the skill that's a death roll for those of us using this build.
I have no problems with the changes to the shield feats or skills, I know they will help you guys that use the shield out a lot, but please don't sacrifice the conquerors to do that.
Yeah it was just an idea... Personally I like the "once you are hit, build a stack" idea OVER having to attack to build a stack. Ive found in most pvp games, you end up getting hit more than you hit. The downside there is it relies on others to hit you to gain your damage bonus which can be frustrating in PVP.
If you have it be on each time you hit someone else, it can also be frustrating if you are getting "kited" around a node, or even controlled and then lose stacks. Especially a class as immobile as the GF and the new CWs... So either of these have their "pros" and "cons"
I will say a class like a GWF has to get hit to build their stacks, which most GWFs never have much of an issue doing - partly because DEALING damage also helps gain determination, but there are MANY times (versus a perma or even DC) where you never build determination and it takes forever to get those stacks.
Overall, I am MORE in favor of being hit to gain stacks, maybe AN option would be actually a MIX of both?
- RECKLESS ATTACKER:
Anytime you are struck in combat OR hit an opponent with an encounter power, gain a stack of reckless attacker. Each stack provides 5% damage boost and 2% Crit. Stacks 6 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
This allows players to not only apply their own stacks, but also allows them ease of maintaining them. The 6 stacks allows for a higher "possible" dmg and crit than the PTR one currently does. So this would be a good middle ground I think.
Thoughts?
I like that idea for reckless attacker but then again how could anyone not ? its a buff, we get faster stacks, more crit and dmg and dont have to rely on just being hit so its great but i cant see this happening because of the people who would think its OP
I like that idea for reckless attacker but then again how could anyone not ? its a buff, we get faster stacks, more crit and dmg and dont have to rely on just being hit so its great but i cant see this happening because of the people who would think its OP
I can not like it. And this is not an issue of this reworked reckless attacker (RA) feat beeing weaker or stronger: It is because I love how the old RA mechanic works and how it feels gameplay wise, and that wont change regardless of how much this reworked RA will get buffed. In addition to that players like me have built their character around this feat spending Millions of AD for artifacts and companions that provide additional power to make use of the effect of the RA feat as it is at the live server.
With the stamina-block it is the same story, but even more intense. This stamina-block will pervert how playing GF is like, and I don't like it one bit. There are several additional reasons against this stamina-block that have been already mentioned in this thread. The list of unwelcome side effects is long. Without this stamina-block we wouldn't even discuss this reworked RA feat, since it would not be needed.
I had hoped for improvements, tweaks of my class, not a rework that changes the core which I learned to love, and which is the reason I kept playing GF all this time allthough we were often unwelcome in parties. I hope you can understand from where I come from and join me by supporting to keep the guard/block mechanism and RA feat as it is at the live servers (just buff them), crixus8000.
I can not like it. And this is not an issue of this reworked reckless attacker (RA) feat beeing weaker or stronger: It is because I love how the old RA mechanic works and how it feels gameplay wise, and that wont change regardless of how much this reworked RA will get buffed. In addition to that players like me have built their character around this feet spending Millions of AD for artifacts and companions that provide additional power to make use of the effect of the RA feat as it is at the live server.
With the stamina-block it is the same story, but even more intense. This stamina-block will pervert how playing GF is like, and I don't like it one bit. There are several additional reasons against this stamina-block that have been already mentioned in this thread. The list of unwelcome side effects is long. Without this stamina-block we wouldn't even discuss this reworked RA feat, since it would not be needed.
I had hoped for improvements, tweaks of my class, not a rework that changes the core which I learned to love, and which is the reason I kept playing GF all this time allthough we were often unwelcome in parties. I hope you can understand from where I come from and join me by supporting to keep the guard/block mechanism and RA feat as it is at the live servers (just buff them), crixus8000.
I HATE the new block i dont like anything about it and i hope they bring back the old one but the new reckless attacker is actually better for the class unlike the new block mechanic, we get more dmg now and more crit. The new block would work once they fix the dmg reduction and increase recharge speed also make the timer only go down during combat and make it longer or it will be bad for our class. still not sure why the old block didnt just get a buff though.
I vote to change it back to 100% block damage with the same block FX and movement speed. keep the new duration and stam regain.
Otherwise i prefer the old block just increase the guard HP substantially.
Im in a dungeon and i use guard to block and save my life from hard hitting attacks, but on preview it feels like watered down unstoppable without the attack speed increase or the ability to use encounters and my regular at-wills.
instead when im under duress i bring up my sheild and i end up dying because of all the incoming damage and inability to lifesteal it back (like GWFs can). Shield should give the cleric some breathing space.
Lower the block duration if you have to, I much prefer the old 100% block, even if it means going back to the old system.
another thing i wish they would bring back is the word "blocked" over your shield when attacked because without that it doesn't feel right or responsive at all, i can hardly tell when i have blocked an attack or not because i still take dmg either way.
Well I have done all that I can, not gonna troll this forum trying to influence others to our cause.
The normal GF's that did not spec their toon for the old reckless attacker are going to love the new one, those of us who spec'd their toon out especially for the old reckless attacker skill will hate the new one.
Its out of my hands now, been in too many games where a popular class was changed and ended up being nerfed to death, not real fond of going though it again.
Its all up to the devs what they want to do, come what ever date it comes out I'll decide what I am going to do. As in the past mod3 where the HR got changed so much no respecs were issued, players had to start a new toon or buy their own. I have spent too much on this toon to re spec him when his base stats cannot be changed, yes I rolled til I got just the right set of specs for him, now they will be worthless.
If the devs change the class so much that it makes my build worthless, he and my other toons will be stripped and everything will given to the guild I belong to and I will be gone, that is my only choice. This is not a threat, if you knew me you would know I am too dang old to make threats, but it is a promise.
Don't let yourself get decieved and think that there is only the option to keep the old RA or to get the new reworked one. There are more than these premade options for you to choose from. How about the old RA feat providing additionally to what it currently does a flat bonus on crit?
I like this and have the amount of crit go down based on how much block we have.
On the new block however when specced for prot the block meter hardly drains if at all with shield slam in pve and in pvp will last even longer than what is current. If you remember what gentlemancrush said he wants the gf to use block when its needed not hold it up and wait for damage which is also the reason for our con getting a buff for more hp.
If we can get the old RA with a crit buff on it I think that would be proper and not destroy what a lot of gfs who have spec'd conq have, power. With this new RA it tosses the power requirement out the door and forces you to build yourself with more defense than offense so this will funnel most if not all gfs to more defensive builds which will kill most if not all diversity in builds especially for pvp. I really do not want to see the same kind of stats on most gfs, it eliminates diversity which is what there currently is. I really want to prevent this as then this class becomes the same old same old each gf you see.
I can not like it. And this is not an issue of this reworked reckless attacker (RA) feat beeing weaker or stronger: It is because I love how the old RA mechanic works and how it feels gameplay wise, and that wont change regardless of how much this reworked RA will get buffed. In addition to that players like me have built their character around this feat spending Millions of AD for artifacts and companions that provide additional power to make use of the effect of the RA feat as it is at the live server.
With the stamina-block it is the same story, but even more intense. This stamina-block will pervert how playing GF is like, and I don't like it one bit. There are several additional reasons against this stamina-block that have been already mentioned in this thread. The list of unwelcome side effects is long. Without this stamina-block we wouldn't even discuss this reworked RA feat, since it would not be needed.
I had hoped for improvements, tweaks of my class, not a rework that changes the core which I learned to love, and which is the reason I kept playing GF all this time allthough we were often unwelcome in parties. I hope you can understand from where I come from and join me by supporting to keep the guard/block mechanism and RA feat as it is at the live servers (just buff them), crixus8000.
You can trust me: The stamina how it is now, is a shot in my heart. I can't infinite block a single one opponent anymore! Okay with shield bashing only, but that's a huge damage decrease... So i dislike how it is now. And the change with starting draining stamina after first hit won't help in PvE/PvP, you will see.
If you apply -10% attack to the enemies you are protecting you and your party, now maybe 10% is low so it could be:
Apply 3% damage debuff (max 15%) to enemy and gain 1 stack of fortitude when hit. At 15 stacks of fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing HP (I think it should be more than 5 seconds ICD or it would be OP, with GPF ticks for example we would be healing a lot).
You miss one part: The damage reduction is okay. The heal is okay! You only MISS that we need increased defense from our capstone like the sentinel capstone do. Like increased effectiveness of defense and/or AC or +% DR. Essential our DR get increased. We lack that advantage over the other two path, because they can get our +AC/+Deflect Chance TOO!
Just a thought about the Mark enhancement; as the Deflection of the Guardian Fighter is quite low, how about another debuff for his Mark? Like -10% Deflection chance for the focus-marked target against the Guardian Fighter? Or even -20%? This in addition to the other debuffs already put on the Mark. It would bring the Deflection chance of the other classes to equal low levels and make the Mark a real threat while leaving the Guardian Fighter as squishy as he is, because some people seem to be afraid of a more robust tank.
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aviracaineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited July 2014
Examples: Bug: Terrifying Impact Prone goes through CC immunity. Why does it prone targets to begin with when the skill description says it stuns targets?
Feedback: Guardian Fighter PvP potential of this class needs close monitoring. PvP specced GFs are unkillable 1v1 while they finish you off in 2 rotations. Imo, a class that can run around face-tanking everything you throw at it for 30 minutes not dropping below half health shouldn't be able to kill anything. Nobody wants to see anything that resembles M2 Sentinels ever again.
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited July 2014
Preview Feedback
Preview block seems to be breaking (red color on the Guardmeter and broken Icon) whenever i try to block more than 8+ mobs eventhough my guardmeter is still at 75%.
not sure what it represent but it looks like i can't block whenever it happens
Preview Feedback : The new block will destroy the class. The DPS changes ( Mark buff / RA changes ) are decent but the Block "WONT WORK as it is.It will destroy the class . Give us our old block with a slight buff on it .Otherwise it can be considered a huge nerf .
FACT : And don't even try to deny it . THE IMPLEMENTATION OF A BLOCK MECH THAT DIMINISHES W/O ANY DMG TAKEN NO MATTER HOW MANY BOOSTS IT GETS WILL KILL THE CLASS .The 95 % of the community demands the old block with slight buffs.The other changes are completely fine.
The new RA feat is too slow to stack. 5 hits means at least 2 secs the GF will luck the current damage.
Most,if not all Gfs use Lunging strike as their first assigned power both in pve/pvp.Followed by Bull/GW or FS.That means tha in the most crucial moment,the beginning of the battle,the stacks will not be full yet.
Proposal:
Make 3 stacks of 10% and crit by 4% each.
The new RA feat is too slow to stack. 5 hits means at least 2 secs the GF will luck the current damage.
Most,if not all Gfs use Lunging strike as their first assigned power both in pve/pvp.Followed by Bull/GW or FS.That means tha in the most crucial moment,the beginning of the battle,the stacks will not be full yet.
Proposal:
Make 3 stacks of 10% and crit by 4% each.
^ Agree 100%.
Something people also need to realize about PVP versus PVE. Right now the classes CANNOT be balanced via PVE because alot of classes outgear the current content ALOT. This is also another reason I dont like the old RA as well, because as soon as you hit some actual challenging content (say they release a new dungeon meant for 16k GS players) youll be blocking like mad to stay alive.
Basically, the old RA that you love because you dont have to block because alot of ppl outgear content, will be useless in content where you DO have to block to survive. Ontop of that I dont know why the PVE crowd would even get mad at this rework, you have so many hard taunts now AND enforced threat has a massive target cap and hard taunts as well, youll have 5 stacks in 1 second of combat.... Not only that but mark gives combat adv, AND Destroyer GWFs have to MASSIVELY choose between ability to take damage and deal damage.
So the old CW/GWF groups wont be as popular and more groups will be LFtank. Not to mention, as ALOT of BOTH PVE and PVP crowd has shown the math, its a DPS boost for any player who has about 11k Power on LIVE currently. If your mad because you power stack before and now you do have to, thats a blessing... The power stack requirement pigeon-holed your gear options.
Played around with my 16.5k Conq GF (somehow it's 17.6k on preview?) and have to say the changes are a huge plus in PVE. I was able to block as long as my tank GF in past versions so I can only imagine how long that defensive build might be able to hold the shield up (10+ seconds at minimum I'd say).
I was able to solo the first wave of Undead Invasion easily and could even fire off Villain's Menace quite regularly. On live, I wouldn't be able to. A rather underrated plus next to being able to block without repercussion as Conq is that you build APs on light speed. If you switch between block and Fighter's Recovery there's no way you die even as Conq in the current content I guess.
With the experienced AP gain under the new block system, the Tactitian's capstone and feats that give +APs are less viable now. You absolutely don't need any more AP gain as GF and I'd even say it could be scaled back a bit while blocking.
Stamina still sometimes turns red indicating a "guard break" while there's plenty of Stamina left.
Comments
I think this is a good idea. Something along the lines of.
"Your block now affects nearby allies at 50% (meaning 40% since block is 80%). You protect allies within HAMSTER meters"
-so basically if an ally is near, your block can work for them at half efficiency. Heck combine that with Knights Valor and that would be pretty OP. Just an idea.
-I also wouldnt be against changing how you gain stacks for Reckless, assuming it had enough "uptime". So maybe they change it so its:
RECKLESS ATTACKER:
<EDITED>Anytime you are hit in combat, or attack a foe with an encounter power, grants you a stack of reckless attacker. Each stacks grants 5% Damage and 2% Crit. Stacks 6 times.
This gives the GF control over how to gain stacks, makes it not super hard to get to max stacks and long enough duration where you cant just get perma kited and never gain stacks.... Just another idea...
Ayroux, I agree with you for the protectors feat tree and skills, but not for the conq.
Let me explain why:
Try thinking about the conq spec'd players, well a few of us, as rogues;
1. I buff up, hit my target with mark, reduces their def
2. lunging strike, to close the distance
3. immed followed by tide of iron, reduces their def
4. followed by griffons wraith first strike
5. followed by anvil of doom
6. then second griffons wraith which if it is feated does increased damage
7. all this without being hit once
8. then I either move away and let the skills perk or wait til anvil perks if their hp is low enuf to finish them off
With the changes described I would have to wait, run in get hit 5 times for reckless to perk then try to run though the skills before it cools, all this to generate less damage then I am currently capable of generating, the skill changes are more suited to the protector tree, someone who is going to get smacked around while defending his party.
The conqueror spec'd players are squishier then the normal tanks,( we do not use the shield, doing that reduces our +100% power output) for us to get hit 5 times to perk a skill, we could be near death and have to evacuate the area to re pot. Then all we have accomplished is to run in get hit 5 times to perk a skill and because we got hit so hard we have to leave before doing any damage, it ruins the build.
It is burst damage, I must admit extremely high burst damage at that, perhaps not suited to PvP but for epic bosses it works great, for solo grinding it works great. We are not there it protect the group, although because of the high burst damage we do pull aggo from that alone quite a few times.
Guarded Assault
feedback:
this skill since mod 1 has shall we all say been useless with a laughable 3% damage reflection, now well into mod 3 it is even more so considering players with high dr+tenacity+deflect that now brings it down to 0.5%(ballparking here) also if your protector spec you propably wont have a lot of ArPen so even mobs dont get reflected for alot. DEVs this skill needs to be brought up to date
several things that could are listed below now i dont mean it should do all these but just pick one anyone
1.increase it to 20% reflect damage
2.have it ignore all resistances(im in favor of this one.)
3.add it into protectors capstone and have it at 35% reflect
4.scrap it into something more usefull it's just taking up space in our skill tree
also a problem is it does not proc weapon enchantments at all yet it acts like regular damage to your foes I.E. they can deflect resist avoid ect ect. this needs to be fixed.
honestly whats the point of even spending 3 points into this skill if all it does is tickle for a measly 3 dmg each block
want to do something funny go against an HR with this slotted and watch how that 5 dmg you just reflected back gets deflected and his pvp set bonus procs makes for great lolz.
this skill needs a major overhaul/rework and im sure every GF can agree on this one we essentially have a useless class talent skill
Protector capstone
the protector capstone is 100x behind tact and conq we can all agree on this, no? the 1 point you would use to get it is better off being spent elsewhere on pretty much any other feat imo. it really should read something like
Iron Guard:
on every hit from an enemy, reduces it's damage by 2% up to a maximum of 10% and increases your deflect by 2/4/8%
instead we have
on every melee hit to an enemy you reduce it's damage by 2% up to 10%
more feedback
pfft. id rather take my 1 point and put it into something else this works well in pve but in pvp it's useless now before you all get going on "well it's not just a pvp game" i play both and i must say this could be so easy to balance with above change actually making it worthwhile to take.
or if the devs feel kind enough maybe just maybe they will scrap what it does and give us a complete re-work like reckless attacker fingures crossed.
No, I don't like it, if we have 50% DR with the block we would be blocking 90% of the total damage, if the shield block the 90% of the incoming damage and we have 50% DR then we would be blocking 95% of the total damage, it would be just an increase of 5% DR while we are blocking and from attacks that come from the front, the only good thing would be the shield to our allies but that would be a nerf to our survability (we can make enemies attack -10% currently).
I've posted this before, but everyone was obsessing over conq feats at the time.
Iron Guard (capstone): When hit, reduce the attacker's damage by 2% for 30 seconds and gain 1 stack of Fortitude. Maximum 10% damage reduction. At 15 stacks of Fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing Hit Points. May only heal once every 5 seconds.
Self healing and enemy debuff when struck. Would fit nicely into a protector build imo.
EDIT: Possibly throw in some stamina regen at 15 stacks as well.
My suggestion is take the old reckless and meld the crit stacking from the current preview version where if you want to build higher damage at the cost of defensive stats.
With the current reckless there is a trade off which is what they have done to the gwf for mod 4 they forced a trade off by going for one capstone or the other. With the change to conq the point for getting power on all your gear disappears and we all become defensive builds, what I mean is you will never see the offensive stat point section be higher than the defensive one ever again.
This suggestion is to avoid the nerf hammer that will come from all the tears of people being owned in mod 4 by the unkillable tanks that toss out decent damage as well. Yea sure it will be great we destroy people in pvp like its nothing. Then the tears will flow and thus get another nerf hammer and its 1 year ago all over again YAY.
While your capstone suggestion sound nice - i really like the healing idea - it lack PvP/PvE duration. Due HD, it's 7,5%, second you need to hit 15 times... not so good. In PvE you will easy achieve that, but the damage reduction is not so fast achieved as before. Some mobs hit hard, but most time very slow. Now how many time they need to get all 5 debuffs? And the last one: It make our path NOT tankier! If you get rumbled, the +15% health use most time nothing! We need as protectors for our allies damage reduction, while ourself get buffed in DR. Heal can be on top of that, but not instead of one of these 2 important points!
Yea, that sounds very good.
I primarily play PvE, skewing my opinion.
Admittedly, 10% heal for 15 hits every 5 seconds isn't very good, but no one likes to consider blatently OP things so I kept it low.
If you apply -10% attack to the enemies you are protecting you and your party, now maybe 10% is low so it could be:
Apply 3% damage debuff (max 15%) to enemy and gain 1 stack of fortitude when hit. At 15 stacks of fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing HP (I think it should be more than 5 seconds ICD or it would be OP, with GPF ticks for example we would be healing a lot).
Block is not reducing movement speed.
Bug: Block
Block's effect is still not stacking with our defenses.
Feedback: Block Duration
The new duration of Block on the PTS is a lot better and it feels just about right.
Feedback: Protector Line
As it stands, this tree seem to lag behind compared to the others as it doesn't offer anything particularly worthwhile in its high-end feats. In particular, the following feats are lackluster and/or out of place and they are in dire need of a rework, not just a minor buff:
- Brawling Warrior
- Balanced Shield Fighter
- Overwhelming Impact
- Iron Guard
Yeah it was just an idea... Personally I like the "once you are hit, build a stack" idea OVER having to attack to build a stack. Ive found in most pvp games, you end up getting hit more than you hit. The downside there is it relies on others to hit you to gain your damage bonus which can be frustrating in PVP.
If you have it be on each time you hit someone else, it can also be frustrating if you are getting "kited" around a node, or even controlled and then lose stacks. Especially a class as immobile as the GF and the new CWs... So either of these have their "pros" and "cons"
I will say a class like a GWF has to get hit to build their stacks, which most GWFs never have much of an issue doing - partly because DEALING damage also helps gain determination, but there are MANY times (versus a perma or even DC) where you never build determination and it takes forever to get those stacks.
Overall, I am MORE in favor of being hit to gain stacks, maybe AN option would be actually a MIX of both?
- RECKLESS ATTACKER:
Anytime you are struck in combat OR hit an opponent with an encounter power, gain a stack of reckless attacker. Each stack provides 5% damage boost and 2% Crit. Stacks 6 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
This allows players to not only apply their own stacks, but also allows them ease of maintaining them. The 6 stacks allows for a higher "possible" dmg and crit than the PTR one currently does. So this would be a good middle ground I think.
Thoughts?
Right now we have to do neither, our power is constant at a +100% power increase, so our first strike though to our last includes that power bonus, unless we raise our shield.
Other games have tried this same procedure, gaining damage perks a skill. But in those games it was open conflict PvP so it was easy for let's say a cleric to remove their weapon, smack you around without doing much damage until the skill perked then you could go crazy.
But since this game isn't open world PvP and a team mate cannot target you, it becomes a matter of a mob or foe smacking you without mercy. Since the conq build does not utilize their shield, (so they can maintain the +100% power increase), you take too much damage before the skill perks to be able to do anything. It would be a constant run in get smacked, skill perks but opps too much damage I got to roll out to heal. SO in this scenario it forces us to start using a shield, that would be like us conq trying to implement a skill that forced you shield users to stop using your shield.
Can you understand what I am trying to say?
I'm not trying to be arrogant, nor trying to start an argument, just trying to present our side for discussion also and how this change to reckless attacker will really hurt the build. If they just change it to use stamina that's fine, but to completely re vamp the skill that's a death roll for those of us using this build.
I have no problems with the changes to the shield feats or skills, I know they will help you guys that use the shield out a lot, but please don't sacrifice the conquerors to do that.
I like that idea for reckless attacker but then again how could anyone not ? its a buff, we get faster stacks, more crit and dmg and dont have to rely on just being hit so its great but i cant see this happening because of the people who would think its OP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I can not like it. And this is not an issue of this reworked reckless attacker (RA) feat beeing weaker or stronger: It is because I love how the old RA mechanic works and how it feels gameplay wise, and that wont change regardless of how much this reworked RA will get buffed. In addition to that players like me have built their character around this feat spending Millions of AD for artifacts and companions that provide additional power to make use of the effect of the RA feat as it is at the live server.
With the stamina-block it is the same story, but even more intense. This stamina-block will pervert how playing GF is like, and I don't like it one bit. There are several additional reasons against this stamina-block that have been already mentioned in this thread. The list of unwelcome side effects is long. Without this stamina-block we wouldn't even discuss this reworked RA feat, since it would not be needed.
I had hoped for improvements, tweaks of my class, not a rework that changes the core which I learned to love, and which is the reason I kept playing GF all this time allthough we were often unwelcome in parties. I hope you can understand from where I come from and join me by supporting to keep the guard/block mechanism and RA feat as it is at the live servers (just buff them), crixus8000.
I HATE the new block i dont like anything about it and i hope they bring back the old one but the new reckless attacker is actually better for the class unlike the new block mechanic, we get more dmg now and more crit. The new block would work once they fix the dmg reduction and increase recharge speed also make the timer only go down during combat and make it longer or it will be bad for our class. still not sure why the old block didnt just get a buff though.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Otherwise i prefer the old block just increase the guard HP substantially.
Im in a dungeon and i use guard to block and save my life from hard hitting attacks, but on preview it feels like watered down unstoppable without the attack speed increase or the ability to use encounters and my regular at-wills.
instead when im under duress i bring up my sheild and i end up dying because of all the incoming damage and inability to lifesteal it back (like GWFs can). Shield should give the cleric some breathing space.
Lower the block duration if you have to, I much prefer the old 100% block, even if it means going back to the old system.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
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The normal GF's that did not spec their toon for the old reckless attacker are going to love the new one, those of us who spec'd their toon out especially for the old reckless attacker skill will hate the new one.
Its out of my hands now, been in too many games where a popular class was changed and ended up being nerfed to death, not real fond of going though it again.
Its all up to the devs what they want to do, come what ever date it comes out I'll decide what I am going to do. As in the past mod3 where the HR got changed so much no respecs were issued, players had to start a new toon or buy their own. I have spent too much on this toon to re spec him when his base stats cannot be changed, yes I rolled til I got just the right set of specs for him, now they will be worthless.
If the devs change the class so much that it makes my build worthless, he and my other toons will be stripped and everything will given to the guild I belong to and I will be gone, that is my only choice. This is not a threat, if you knew me you would know I am too dang old to make threats, but it is a promise.
I like this and have the amount of crit go down based on how much block we have.
On the new block however when specced for prot the block meter hardly drains if at all with shield slam in pve and in pvp will last even longer than what is current. If you remember what gentlemancrush said he wants the gf to use block when its needed not hold it up and wait for damage which is also the reason for our con getting a buff for more hp.
If we can get the old RA with a crit buff on it I think that would be proper and not destroy what a lot of gfs who have spec'd conq have, power. With this new RA it tosses the power requirement out the door and forces you to build yourself with more defense than offense so this will funnel most if not all gfs to more defensive builds which will kill most if not all diversity in builds especially for pvp. I really do not want to see the same kind of stats on most gfs, it eliminates diversity which is what there currently is. I really want to prevent this as then this class becomes the same old same old each gf you see.
You can trust me: The stamina how it is now, is a shot in my heart. I can't infinite block a single one opponent anymore! Okay with shield bashing only, but that's a huge damage decrease... So i dislike how it is now. And the change with starting draining stamina after first hit won't help in PvE/PvP, you will see.
You miss one part: The damage reduction is okay. The heal is okay! You only MISS that we need increased defense from our capstone like the sentinel capstone do. Like increased effectiveness of defense and/or AC or +% DR. Essential our DR get increased. We lack that advantage over the other two path, because they can get our +AC/+Deflect Chance TOO!
Bug: Terrifying Impact
Prone goes through CC immunity. Why does it prone targets to begin with when the skill description says it stuns targets?
Feedback: Guardian Fighter
PvP potential of this class needs close monitoring. PvP specced GFs are unkillable 1v1 while they finish you off in 2 rotations. Imo, a class that can run around face-tanking everything you throw at it for 30 minutes not dropping below half health shouldn't be able to kill anything. Nobody wants to see anything that resembles M2 Sentinels ever again.
Preview block seems to be breaking (red color on the Guardmeter and broken Icon) whenever i try to block more than 8+ mobs eventhough my guardmeter is still at 75%.
not sure what it represent but it looks like i can't block whenever it happens
FACT : And don't even try to deny it . THE IMPLEMENTATION OF A BLOCK MECH THAT DIMINISHES W/O ANY DMG TAKEN NO MATTER HOW MANY BOOSTS IT GETS WILL KILL THE CLASS .The 95 % of the community demands the old block with slight buffs.The other changes are completely fine.
Feedback:
The new RA feat is too slow to stack. 5 hits means at least 2 secs the GF will luck the current damage.
Most,if not all Gfs use Lunging strike as their first assigned power both in pve/pvp.Followed by Bull/GW or FS.That means tha in the most crucial moment,the beginning of the battle,the stacks will not be full yet.
Proposal:
Make 3 stacks of 10% and crit by 4% each.
^ Agree 100%.
Something people also need to realize about PVP versus PVE. Right now the classes CANNOT be balanced via PVE because alot of classes outgear the current content ALOT. This is also another reason I dont like the old RA as well, because as soon as you hit some actual challenging content (say they release a new dungeon meant for 16k GS players) youll be blocking like mad to stay alive.
Basically, the old RA that you love because you dont have to block because alot of ppl outgear content, will be useless in content where you DO have to block to survive. Ontop of that I dont know why the PVE crowd would even get mad at this rework, you have so many hard taunts now AND enforced threat has a massive target cap and hard taunts as well, youll have 5 stacks in 1 second of combat.... Not only that but mark gives combat adv, AND Destroyer GWFs have to MASSIVELY choose between ability to take damage and deal damage.
So the old CW/GWF groups wont be as popular and more groups will be LFtank. Not to mention, as ALOT of BOTH PVE and PVP crowd has shown the math, its a DPS boost for any player who has about 11k Power on LIVE currently. If your mad because you power stack before and now you do have to, thats a blessing... The power stack requirement pigeon-holed your gear options.
I was able to solo the first wave of Undead Invasion easily and could even fire off Villain's Menace quite regularly. On live, I wouldn't be able to. A rather underrated plus next to being able to block without repercussion as Conq is that you build APs on light speed. If you switch between block and Fighter's Recovery there's no way you die even as Conq in the current content I guess.
With the experienced AP gain under the new block system, the Tactitian's capstone and feats that give +APs are less viable now. You absolutely don't need any more AP gain as GF and I'd even say it could be scaled back a bit while blocking.
Stamina still sometimes turns red indicating a "guard break" while there's plenty of Stamina left.