While your capstone suggestion sound nice - i really like the healing idea - it lack PvP/PvE duration. Due HD, it's 7,5%, second you need to hit 15 times... not so good. In PvE you will easy achieve that, but the damage reduction is not so fast achieved as before. Some mobs hit hard, but most time very slow. Now how many time they need to get all 5 debuffs? And the last one: It make our path NOT tankier! If you get rumbled, the +15% health use most time nothing! We need as protectors for our allies damage reduction, while ourself get buffed in DR. Heal can be on top of that, but not instead of one of these 2 important points!
I primarily play PvE, skewing my opinion.
Admittedly, 10% heal for 15 hits every 5 seconds isn't very good, but no one likes to consider blatently OP things so I kept it low.
While your capstone suggestion sound nice - i really like the healing idea - it lack PvP/PvE duration. Due HD, it's 7,5%, second you need to hit 15 times... not so good. In PvE you will easy achieve that, but the damage reduction is not so fast achieved as before. Some mobs hit hard, but most time very slow. Now how many time they need to get all 5 debuffs? And the last one: It make our path NOT tankier! If you get rumbled, the +15% health use most time nothing! We need as protectors for our allies damage reduction, while ourself get buffed in DR. Heal can be on top of that, but not instead of one of these 2 important points!
If you apply -10% attack to the enemies you are protecting you and your party, now maybe 10% is low so it could be:
Apply 3% damage debuff (max 15%) to enemy and gain 1 stack of fortitude when hit. At 15 stacks of fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing HP (I think it should be more than 5 seconds ICD or it would be OP, with GPF ticks for example we would be healing a lot).
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited July 2014
Bug: Block
Block is not reducing movement speed.
Bug: Block
Block's effect is still not stacking with our defenses.
Feedback: Block Duration
The new duration of Block on the PTS is a lot better and it feels just about right.
Feedback: Protector Line
As it stands, this tree seem to lag behind compared to the others as it doesn't offer anything particularly worthwhile in its high-end feats. In particular, the following feats are lackluster and/or out of place and they are in dire need of a rework, not just a minor buff:
- Brawling Warrior
- Balanced Shield Fighter
- Overwhelming Impact
- Iron Guard
Ayroux, I agree with you for the protectors feat tree and skills, but not for the conq.
Yeah it was just an idea... Personally I like the "once you are hit, build a stack" idea OVER having to attack to build a stack. Ive found in most pvp games, you end up getting hit more than you hit. The downside there is it relies on others to hit you to gain your damage bonus which can be frustrating in PVP.
If you have it be on each time you hit someone else, it can also be frustrating if you are getting "kited" around a node, or even controlled and then lose stacks. Especially a class as immobile as the GF and the new CWs... So either of these have their "pros" and "cons"
I will say a class like a GWF has to get hit to build their stacks, which most GWFs never have much of an issue doing - partly because DEALING damage also helps gain determination, but there are MANY times (versus a perma or even DC) where you never build determination and it takes forever to get those stacks.
Overall, I am MORE in favor of being hit to gain stacks, maybe AN option would be actually a MIX of both?
- RECKLESS ATTACKER:
Anytime you are struck in combat OR hit an opponent with an encounter power, gain a stack of reckless attacker. Each stack provides 5% damage boost and 2% Crit. Stacks 6 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
This allows players to not only apply their own stacks, but also allows them ease of maintaining them. The 6 stacks allows for a higher "possible" dmg and crit than the PTR one currently does. So this would be a good middle ground I think.
ayroux:Yeah it was just an idea... Personally I like the "once you are hit, build a stack" idea OVER having to attack to build a stack. Ive found in most pvp games, you end up getting hit more than you hit. The downside there is it relies on others to hit you to gain your damage bonus which can be frustrating in PVP.
Right now we have to do neither, our power is constant at a +100% power increase, so our first strike though to our last includes that power bonus, unless we raise our shield.
Other games have tried this same procedure, gaining damage perks a skill. But in those games it was open conflict PvP so it was easy for let's say a cleric to remove their weapon, smack you around without doing much damage until the skill perked then you could go crazy.
But since this game isn't open world PvP and a team mate cannot target you, it becomes a matter of a mob or foe smacking you without mercy. Since the conq build does not utilize their shield, (so they can maintain the +100% power increase), you take too much damage before the skill perks to be able to do anything. It would be a constant run in get smacked, skill perks but opps too much damage I got to roll out to heal. SO in this scenario it forces us to start using a shield, that would be like us conq trying to implement a skill that forced you shield users to stop using your shield.
Can you understand what I am trying to say?
I'm not trying to be arrogant, nor trying to start an argument, just trying to present our side for discussion also and how this change to reckless attacker will really hurt the build. If they just change it to use stamina that's fine, but to completely re vamp the skill that's a death roll for those of us using this build.
I have no problems with the changes to the shield feats or skills, I know they will help you guys that use the shield out a lot, but please don't sacrifice the conquerors to do that.
Yeah it was just an idea... Personally I like the "once you are hit, build a stack" idea OVER having to attack to build a stack. Ive found in most pvp games, you end up getting hit more than you hit. The downside there is it relies on others to hit you to gain your damage bonus which can be frustrating in PVP.
If you have it be on each time you hit someone else, it can also be frustrating if you are getting "kited" around a node, or even controlled and then lose stacks. Especially a class as immobile as the GF and the new CWs... So either of these have their "pros" and "cons"
I will say a class like a GWF has to get hit to build their stacks, which most GWFs never have much of an issue doing - partly because DEALING damage also helps gain determination, but there are MANY times (versus a perma or even DC) where you never build determination and it takes forever to get those stacks.
Overall, I am MORE in favor of being hit to gain stacks, maybe AN option would be actually a MIX of both?
- RECKLESS ATTACKER:
Anytime you are struck in combat OR hit an opponent with an encounter power, gain a stack of reckless attacker. Each stack provides 5% damage boost and 2% Crit. Stacks 6 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
This allows players to not only apply their own stacks, but also allows them ease of maintaining them. The 6 stacks allows for a higher "possible" dmg and crit than the PTR one currently does. So this would be a good middle ground I think.
Thoughts?
I like that idea for reckless attacker but then again how could anyone not ? its a buff, we get faster stacks, more crit and dmg and dont have to rely on just being hit so its great but i cant see this happening because of the people who would think its OP
I like that idea for reckless attacker but then again how could anyone not ? its a buff, we get faster stacks, more crit and dmg and dont have to rely on just being hit so its great but i cant see this happening because of the people who would think its OP
I can not like it. And this is not an issue of this reworked reckless attacker (RA) feat beeing weaker or stronger: It is because I love how the old RA mechanic works and how it feels gameplay wise, and that wont change regardless of how much this reworked RA will get buffed. In addition to that players like me have built their character around this feat spending Millions of AD for artifacts and companions that provide additional power to make use of the effect of the RA feat as it is at the live server.
With the stamina-block it is the same story, but even more intense. This stamina-block will pervert how playing GF is like, and I don't like it one bit. There are several additional reasons against this stamina-block that have been already mentioned in this thread. The list of unwelcome side effects is long. Without this stamina-block we wouldn't even discuss this reworked RA feat, since it would not be needed.
I had hoped for improvements, tweaks of my class, not a rework that changes the core which I learned to love, and which is the reason I kept playing GF all this time allthough we were often unwelcome in parties. I hope you can understand from where I come from and join me by supporting to keep the guard/block mechanism and RA feat as it is at the live servers (just buff them), crixus8000.
I can not like it. And this is not an issue of this reworked reckless attacker (RA) feat beeing weaker or stronger: It is because I love how the old RA mechanic works and how it feels gameplay wise, and that wont change regardless of how much this reworked RA will get buffed. In addition to that players like me have built their character around this feet spending Millions of AD for artifacts and companions that provide additional power to make use of the effect of the RA feat as it is at the live server.
With the stamina-block it is the same story, but even more intense. This stamina-block will pervert how playing GF is like, and I don't like it one bit. There are several additional reasons against this stamina-block that have been already mentioned in this thread. The list of unwelcome side effects is long. Without this stamina-block we wouldn't even discuss this reworked RA feat, since it would not be needed.
I had hoped for improvements, tweaks of my class, not a rework that changes the core which I learned to love, and which is the reason I kept playing GF all this time allthough we were often unwelcome in parties. I hope you can understand from where I come from and join me by supporting to keep the guard/block mechanism and RA feat as it is at the live servers (just buff them), crixus8000.
I HATE the new block i dont like anything about it and i hope they bring back the old one but the new reckless attacker is actually better for the class unlike the new block mechanic, we get more dmg now and more crit. The new block would work once they fix the dmg reduction and increase recharge speed also make the timer only go down during combat and make it longer or it will be bad for our class. still not sure why the old block didnt just get a buff though.
I vote to change it back to 100% block damage with the same block FX and movement speed. keep the new duration and stam regain.
Otherwise i prefer the old block just increase the guard HP substantially.
Im in a dungeon and i use guard to block and save my life from hard hitting attacks, but on preview it feels like watered down unstoppable without the attack speed increase or the ability to use encounters and my regular at-wills.
instead when im under duress i bring up my sheild and i end up dying because of all the incoming damage and inability to lifesteal it back (like GWFs can). Shield should give the cleric some breathing space.
Lower the block duration if you have to, I much prefer the old 100% block, even if it means going back to the old system.
another thing i wish they would bring back is the word "blocked" over your shield when attacked because without that it doesn't feel right or responsive at all, i can hardly tell when i have blocked an attack or not because i still take dmg either way.
Well I have done all that I can, not gonna troll this forum trying to influence others to our cause.
The normal GF's that did not spec their toon for the old reckless attacker are going to love the new one, those of us who spec'd their toon out especially for the old reckless attacker skill will hate the new one.
Its out of my hands now, been in too many games where a popular class was changed and ended up being nerfed to death, not real fond of going though it again.
Its all up to the devs what they want to do, come what ever date it comes out I'll decide what I am going to do. As in the past mod3 where the HR got changed so much no respecs were issued, players had to start a new toon or buy their own. I have spent too much on this toon to re spec him when his base stats cannot be changed, yes I rolled til I got just the right set of specs for him, now they will be worthless.
If the devs change the class so much that it makes my build worthless, he and my other toons will be stripped and everything will given to the guild I belong to and I will be gone, that is my only choice. This is not a threat, if you knew me you would know I am too dang old to make threats, but it is a promise.
Don't let yourself get decieved and think that there is only the option to keep the old RA or to get the new reworked one. There are more than these premade options for you to choose from. How about the old RA feat providing additionally to what it currently does a flat bonus on crit?
I like this and have the amount of crit go down based on how much block we have.
On the new block however when specced for prot the block meter hardly drains if at all with shield slam in pve and in pvp will last even longer than what is current. If you remember what gentlemancrush said he wants the gf to use block when its needed not hold it up and wait for damage which is also the reason for our con getting a buff for more hp.
If we can get the old RA with a crit buff on it I think that would be proper and not destroy what a lot of gfs who have spec'd conq have, power. With this new RA it tosses the power requirement out the door and forces you to build yourself with more defense than offense so this will funnel most if not all gfs to more defensive builds which will kill most if not all diversity in builds especially for pvp. I really do not want to see the same kind of stats on most gfs, it eliminates diversity which is what there currently is. I really want to prevent this as then this class becomes the same old same old each gf you see.
I can not like it. And this is not an issue of this reworked reckless attacker (RA) feat beeing weaker or stronger: It is because I love how the old RA mechanic works and how it feels gameplay wise, and that wont change regardless of how much this reworked RA will get buffed. In addition to that players like me have built their character around this feat spending Millions of AD for artifacts and companions that provide additional power to make use of the effect of the RA feat as it is at the live server.
With the stamina-block it is the same story, but even more intense. This stamina-block will pervert how playing GF is like, and I don't like it one bit. There are several additional reasons against this stamina-block that have been already mentioned in this thread. The list of unwelcome side effects is long. Without this stamina-block we wouldn't even discuss this reworked RA feat, since it would not be needed.
I had hoped for improvements, tweaks of my class, not a rework that changes the core which I learned to love, and which is the reason I kept playing GF all this time allthough we were often unwelcome in parties. I hope you can understand from where I come from and join me by supporting to keep the guard/block mechanism and RA feat as it is at the live servers (just buff them), crixus8000.
You can trust me: The stamina how it is now, is a shot in my heart. I can't infinite block a single one opponent anymore! Okay with shield bashing only, but that's a huge damage decrease... So i dislike how it is now. And the change with starting draining stamina after first hit won't help in PvE/PvP, you will see.
If you apply -10% attack to the enemies you are protecting you and your party, now maybe 10% is low so it could be:
Apply 3% damage debuff (max 15%) to enemy and gain 1 stack of fortitude when hit. At 15 stacks of fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing HP (I think it should be more than 5 seconds ICD or it would be OP, with GPF ticks for example we would be healing a lot).
You miss one part: The damage reduction is okay. The heal is okay! You only MISS that we need increased defense from our capstone like the sentinel capstone do. Like increased effectiveness of defense and/or AC or +% DR. Essential our DR get increased. We lack that advantage over the other two path, because they can get our +AC/+Deflect Chance TOO!
Just a thought about the Mark enhancement; as the Deflection of the Guardian Fighter is quite low, how about another debuff for his Mark? Like -10% Deflection chance for the focus-marked target against the Guardian Fighter? Or even -20%? This in addition to the other debuffs already put on the Mark. It would bring the Deflection chance of the other classes to equal low levels and make the Mark a real threat while leaving the Guardian Fighter as squishy as he is, because some people seem to be afraid of a more robust tank.
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aviracaineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited July 2014
Examples: Bug: Terrifying Impact Prone goes through CC immunity. Why does it prone targets to begin with when the skill description says it stuns targets?
Feedback: Guardian Fighter PvP potential of this class needs close monitoring. PvP specced GFs are unkillable 1v1 while they finish you off in 2 rotations. Imo, a class that can run around face-tanking everything you throw at it for 30 minutes not dropping below half health shouldn't be able to kill anything. Nobody wants to see anything that resembles M2 Sentinels ever again.
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zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited July 2014
Preview Feedback
Preview block seems to be breaking (red color on the Guardmeter and broken Icon) whenever i try to block more than 8+ mobs eventhough my guardmeter is still at 75%.
not sure what it represent but it looks like i can't block whenever it happens
Preview Feedback : The new block will destroy the class. The DPS changes ( Mark buff / RA changes ) are decent but the Block "WONT WORK as it is.It will destroy the class . Give us our old block with a slight buff on it .Otherwise it can be considered a huge nerf .
FACT : And don't even try to deny it . THE IMPLEMENTATION OF A BLOCK MECH THAT DIMINISHES W/O ANY DMG TAKEN NO MATTER HOW MANY BOOSTS IT GETS WILL KILL THE CLASS .The 95 % of the community demands the old block with slight buffs.The other changes are completely fine.
The new RA feat is too slow to stack. 5 hits means at least 2 secs the GF will luck the current damage.
Most,if not all Gfs use Lunging strike as their first assigned power both in pve/pvp.Followed by Bull/GW or FS.That means tha in the most crucial moment,the beginning of the battle,the stacks will not be full yet.
Proposal:
Make 3 stacks of 10% and crit by 4% each.
The new RA feat is too slow to stack. 5 hits means at least 2 secs the GF will luck the current damage.
Most,if not all Gfs use Lunging strike as their first assigned power both in pve/pvp.Followed by Bull/GW or FS.That means tha in the most crucial moment,the beginning of the battle,the stacks will not be full yet.
Proposal:
Make 3 stacks of 10% and crit by 4% each.
^ Agree 100%.
Something people also need to realize about PVP versus PVE. Right now the classes CANNOT be balanced via PVE because alot of classes outgear the current content ALOT. This is also another reason I dont like the old RA as well, because as soon as you hit some actual challenging content (say they release a new dungeon meant for 16k GS players) youll be blocking like mad to stay alive.
Basically, the old RA that you love because you dont have to block because alot of ppl outgear content, will be useless in content where you DO have to block to survive. Ontop of that I dont know why the PVE crowd would even get mad at this rework, you have so many hard taunts now AND enforced threat has a massive target cap and hard taunts as well, youll have 5 stacks in 1 second of combat.... Not only that but mark gives combat adv, AND Destroyer GWFs have to MASSIVELY choose between ability to take damage and deal damage.
So the old CW/GWF groups wont be as popular and more groups will be LFtank. Not to mention, as ALOT of BOTH PVE and PVP crowd has shown the math, its a DPS boost for any player who has about 11k Power on LIVE currently. If your mad because you power stack before and now you do have to, thats a blessing... The power stack requirement pigeon-holed your gear options.
Played around with my 16.5k Conq GF (somehow it's 17.6k on preview?) and have to say the changes are a huge plus in PVE. I was able to block as long as my tank GF in past versions so I can only imagine how long that defensive build might be able to hold the shield up (10+ seconds at minimum I'd say).
I was able to solo the first wave of Undead Invasion easily and could even fire off Villain's Menace quite regularly. On live, I wouldn't be able to. A rather underrated plus next to being able to block without repercussion as Conq is that you build APs on light speed. If you switch between block and Fighter's Recovery there's no way you die even as Conq in the current content I guess.
With the experienced AP gain under the new block system, the Tactitian's capstone and feats that give +APs are less viable now. You absolutely don't need any more AP gain as GF and I'd even say it could be scaled back a bit while blocking.
Stamina still sometimes turns red indicating a "guard break" while there's plenty of Stamina left.
I play gwf but from what ive seen playing on Gf must feel like playing demo version of neverwinter where ure restricted from aggroing effectively and basically fullfilling ur purpose. i mean cmon gwf can kite sp and fh better. Every enchantment apart from vorp is based on weapon dmg which in case of gwf is 1000 and gf ?600? I totally survive everything due to my life steal and dps so why shouldnt gf be able? Instead once his shield is gone he runs away like headless chicken and regen just doesnt work as good in pve i suppose. SO I AM AGAINST THE STAMINA/GUARD meter changes that cryptic wants to implement. and they should throw shield about like captain america.
The new Block is indeed awesome . I love the way it depletes by just using it(making it Helluva easy to break past it w/o even hitting a GF) or the reduced DR . It's indeed so much better as you say .
Mr Crash
.Let us keep our "OLD" Block instead of tiring yourself out by trying to fix the bugged non needed preview one . If you insist keeping the new block for mod 4 ,the GF Class will DIE .
Let me say this again this my personal opinion not a directed attack of any kind just trying to inspire some creativity for the coming change so people are not being stubborn to the last minute and then having to learn to play with the new block.
No problem, you were exclusively factual, allthough your "crazy mad scientists" comment was a bit of an eyebrow riser, but that audacious statement wasn't directed at me. :cool:
So let me ask would like your shield to be gone in seconds from multiple mobs or it lasts a fight and you are not running for your life over and over?
I think this situation can be significantly improved by increasing the general guard meter pool and/or regeneration rate of the guard meter as well as decreasing the delay until the guard meter starts recovering after taking a hit.
Additionally, I think it is ok in some cases for the guard to be broken during a fight, it makes it interesting and challenging to deal with these situations and to choose from a variety of options. I would like to see some improvements here to make it easier for us. For example, one could reduce the casting time of fighter's recovery (Kessel's Retreat anyone?). Another tweak has already been introduced at the live server, and you mentioned it: CON providing more hp, and thus helping us also to deal a bit better with damage spikes. One last thing about this: I am writing this from the perspective of a conqueror GF who is ok with beeing not that strong on the defensive side, I like evading or having to resort to something else than blocking.
Nevertheless I understand that there are protectors and probably tacticians who rightfully want their guard to be less easy broken if a volley of attacks hails down on them, and who want more tankiness. What I suggest is for them to get buffs to their feats deeper in their respective tree to boost what I wrote in the first paragraph or/and other creative ways to help them in this situation. I feel that there hasn't been made a serious attempt at exploring the creativity here. If I had to be the first one to step up and present ideas, well here is the first one from the top of my head:
Imagine to get (significantly!) higher damage resistance (and maybe CC immunity) x seconds to all damage once your guard is broken. This effect can only occur again after the guard meter has taped the 100% mark. Alternatively this effect could only trigger once in y seconds. (But I am not much a friend of these 'can only happen once in 90 seconds' time gates).Btw I'd love to see that underlined by some sound/graphics like chinking sparks flying of the armor. :cool:
OK i now am conficed the new block is great after a bunch of pvp matches the increased movement speed is a plus stamina block is decent if you slot the right talents and gear you have the potential to hold it up for close to 10 seconds plus we have cc immunity while guard is up now thats awesome. the movement is awesome it makes fights more exciting and your able to position yourself faster and better, trust me i was against it at first but now im all for it +1 for this the duration up was sorely needed now if we can just get the DR problem fixed good thing crush caught it
BLOCK we are still taking more dmg than we should through block it just a reminder this needs a fix then it will be perfect get to it devs
PLEASE add "blocked" back to the game for when you block attacks, its only a small change but it should have not been taken off.
Im Happy with everything else now, thanks for listening to people and making our class more balanced i really feel like mod 4 will make the game more fun for the gf players.
while blocking dont get 80% reduction dmg + your DR actually just get 41.176405 % of dmg reduction
Reckless Attacker dont increases your dmg only increases the crit chance
FLS still prone players
sometimes the cc affects you while blocking
idk why but sometimes your power down 70 % while blocking
feedback:
Guarded assault need to improve at least 15% of dmg returns
Change Knee breaker is too easy avoid /low range/slow motion
iron warrior / knight´s valor/Villian menace need buffed up whit dmg resit
Shielded resurgence/GRit/TAke a measure/ into the fray need to increase the amount of hit points
whille charge whit lunging strike your will get inmunity cc like root/slow
Iron Guard your shield now block 90/100% incoming dmg and reduces ATK speed/casting speed every enemy hit you
Martyal mastery while fight vs numerous enemies gain more action point
Finally the GF needs an increase in general DR make him better tank than the GWF in any event
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l3g10nna1reMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 372Arc User
edited July 2014
General question
The new Block was supposed to be based on Stamina Now, not DPS/Hits is that correct?
The reason I Ask is I just spent 1 hour doing solo trolls Elite etc and 5=1 add pulls to test block etc
1: Block went down in 4 seconds when pulling 5-10 adds but to my understanding its not about how many times you get HIT now its based on the Stamna Value Class Feature +30% Set means I get 10-11 seconds of 80% block Value/Ability and no amount of hits should take away from that time
2: Seems the Guard Icon is bugged some times will be full then Instantly Empty
3: Skills that restore Stamina Show it going to max Instantly not over 8 seconds
Seems Block is going down Very fast against enemys like its STILL based on Damage and not stamina or perhaps maybe I have understood it wrong
Bug: Knight's Challenge Any combat action during the animation (before the red line appears) will cancel the cast and put the power on cooldown w/o any affect. On rare occasions this can make the skill completely uncastable until it is removed from the active power slot.
90% of the post in this thread are aimed at the PVP aspect of the game this post is about the PVE aspect.
I have read and more importantly I have inspected (in game) other GF's (many, many GF's)and due to the research I have discovered that not all, but close to 75% of the players complaining about the GF class being so lousy isn't because of the class, its because of them.
I see many GF's with racial abilities that do not match what they are trying to be and MOST importantly their basic ability scores, yes STR,CON,DEX are pathetic, do you guys even know u can roll the dice to gain the best set of abilities for your racial selection and class, No I don't think 3/4 of you do. I think you get in such a hurry to make your toon you completely skip that part accepting the stock dice roll for your starting stats. Then when your GF turns out so lousy "Ohhh this class stinks it needs the devs to re do it" !!!
I have seen GF's in complete mismatched armor sets, NO I am not talking about someone going 2/2, or 4/4, I am talking about players going 4/1 meaning no set bonus what so ever, four different pieces from four different sets, but its still the class fault, not theirs that their GF stinks.
Or people that get the PVP set and complain because they do so poorly in PVE, OR the Pve sets and do so poorly in PVP, there are specific builds best suited to PVP and there are specific builds best suited for PVE, learn them and utilize them before you go shouting ohhhhh the GF class is lousy.
But my biggest laugh is from people that want to hide behind a shield. Do you even realize why the GWF has replaced the GF in groups, do you?
Its because of the damage they generate. Damage against a mob is a form of CC, it pulls the boss to them hence the adds direct also towards where the boss is pulled. That is a basic formula of MMO's and it was one of the first forms of CC in any MMO. He who does the most damage pulls the mob.
Then taunt entered the scene, it is a form of damage without causing physical damage, which over powered MOST if not all the DD's. Then it became a game of increasing the damage the GWF's, Nukers and rangers did against the taunt (mark in this game) that the GF's did, without over powering the GF ( guess what someone forgot to adjust the marks power that's why you can no longer control the mobs). The marks power is lower then the damage that the GWF, Nukers and rangers generate, hence they pull the mobs from you.
The main reason other people do not want a GF in their group isn't due to CC, its because even a little girl holding up a cross can do more damage then you do, yeah I'm talking about a cleric.
You think (as a GF)your supposed to hide behind your shield (which in your thinking is supposed to block 100% of all damage against you) and spam mark and the mobs and boss are just magically supposedly to fall in love with you, waltz over and stand by your side, while the rest of the group hails damage upon them.
Get a grip people. As a GF you first MARK, then deal damage (which a GF can do if you know what the heck you are doing when you build him) and only upon the most damaging assaults, raise your shield to block them. You don't just stand there holding your shield up for 30-45 seconds till the rest of your group kills the mob, that's the mentality that has put all the GF's out of the parties. Parties want players that can deal damage so the group doesn't spend 2 hours in a dungeon trying to whittle down or bore a boss to death.
Parties have a limited # of slots, so if a group goes in with only 1-2 DD's it takes forever to kill a boss, along with the added expense of pots and IF the healer goes down the party goes down. A group of DD's even without a healer can control the boss and mobs by selectively hitting and actually pulling the boss and mobs from one player to the other, forcing the boss and mobs to kite between them hence lowering the damage they put out to the group.
Most GWF's do not have half the defense that a lot of you GF's have and they don't have a shield, SO why do you feel you have to stand there and hide behind a shield to be effective. YOU DON"T, you have skills that most of you are not using, prob don't even know about. You can generate damage very comparable to a GWF, which when combined with your taunts(marks) would hold the mob on you allowing you to control it. But you cannot mark a mob then stand there with your shield raised and use that skill that pokes over the top of it at the mob(never used it so don't even know its name, worthless skill) and expect the mob to hold to you.
SO instead of you educating yourself about the class or repairing a broken toon that you made, you come crying to the devs to fix your mistakes!
Now they are going to fix it oky, yeah they are going to fix it for the demands and wishes of the PVP crowd.
Comments
I primarily play PvE, skewing my opinion.
Admittedly, 10% heal for 15 hits every 5 seconds isn't very good, but no one likes to consider blatently OP things so I kept it low.
If you apply -10% attack to the enemies you are protecting you and your party, now maybe 10% is low so it could be:
Apply 3% damage debuff (max 15%) to enemy and gain 1 stack of fortitude when hit. At 15 stacks of fortitude, heal for 10% of your missing HP (I think it should be more than 5 seconds ICD or it would be OP, with GPF ticks for example we would be healing a lot).
Block is not reducing movement speed.
Bug: Block
Block's effect is still not stacking with our defenses.
Feedback: Block Duration
The new duration of Block on the PTS is a lot better and it feels just about right.
Feedback: Protector Line
As it stands, this tree seem to lag behind compared to the others as it doesn't offer anything particularly worthwhile in its high-end feats. In particular, the following feats are lackluster and/or out of place and they are in dire need of a rework, not just a minor buff:
- Brawling Warrior
- Balanced Shield Fighter
- Overwhelming Impact
- Iron Guard
Yeah it was just an idea... Personally I like the "once you are hit, build a stack" idea OVER having to attack to build a stack. Ive found in most pvp games, you end up getting hit more than you hit. The downside there is it relies on others to hit you to gain your damage bonus which can be frustrating in PVP.
If you have it be on each time you hit someone else, it can also be frustrating if you are getting "kited" around a node, or even controlled and then lose stacks. Especially a class as immobile as the GF and the new CWs... So either of these have their "pros" and "cons"
I will say a class like a GWF has to get hit to build their stacks, which most GWFs never have much of an issue doing - partly because DEALING damage also helps gain determination, but there are MANY times (versus a perma or even DC) where you never build determination and it takes forever to get those stacks.
Overall, I am MORE in favor of being hit to gain stacks, maybe AN option would be actually a MIX of both?
- RECKLESS ATTACKER:
Anytime you are struck in combat OR hit an opponent with an encounter power, gain a stack of reckless attacker. Each stack provides 5% damage boost and 2% Crit. Stacks 6 times. Lasts 10 seconds.
This allows players to not only apply their own stacks, but also allows them ease of maintaining them. The 6 stacks allows for a higher "possible" dmg and crit than the PTR one currently does. So this would be a good middle ground I think.
Thoughts?
Right now we have to do neither, our power is constant at a +100% power increase, so our first strike though to our last includes that power bonus, unless we raise our shield.
Other games have tried this same procedure, gaining damage perks a skill. But in those games it was open conflict PvP so it was easy for let's say a cleric to remove their weapon, smack you around without doing much damage until the skill perked then you could go crazy.
But since this game isn't open world PvP and a team mate cannot target you, it becomes a matter of a mob or foe smacking you without mercy. Since the conq build does not utilize their shield, (so they can maintain the +100% power increase), you take too much damage before the skill perks to be able to do anything. It would be a constant run in get smacked, skill perks but opps too much damage I got to roll out to heal. SO in this scenario it forces us to start using a shield, that would be like us conq trying to implement a skill that forced you shield users to stop using your shield.
Can you understand what I am trying to say?
I'm not trying to be arrogant, nor trying to start an argument, just trying to present our side for discussion also and how this change to reckless attacker will really hurt the build. If they just change it to use stamina that's fine, but to completely re vamp the skill that's a death roll for those of us using this build.
I have no problems with the changes to the shield feats or skills, I know they will help you guys that use the shield out a lot, but please don't sacrifice the conquerors to do that.
I like that idea for reckless attacker but then again how could anyone not ? its a buff, we get faster stacks, more crit and dmg and dont have to rely on just being hit so its great but i cant see this happening because of the people who would think its OP
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I can not like it. And this is not an issue of this reworked reckless attacker (RA) feat beeing weaker or stronger: It is because I love how the old RA mechanic works and how it feels gameplay wise, and that wont change regardless of how much this reworked RA will get buffed. In addition to that players like me have built their character around this feat spending Millions of AD for artifacts and companions that provide additional power to make use of the effect of the RA feat as it is at the live server.
With the stamina-block it is the same story, but even more intense. This stamina-block will pervert how playing GF is like, and I don't like it one bit. There are several additional reasons against this stamina-block that have been already mentioned in this thread. The list of unwelcome side effects is long. Without this stamina-block we wouldn't even discuss this reworked RA feat, since it would not be needed.
I had hoped for improvements, tweaks of my class, not a rework that changes the core which I learned to love, and which is the reason I kept playing GF all this time allthough we were often unwelcome in parties. I hope you can understand from where I come from and join me by supporting to keep the guard/block mechanism and RA feat as it is at the live servers (just buff them), crixus8000.
I HATE the new block i dont like anything about it and i hope they bring back the old one but the new reckless attacker is actually better for the class unlike the new block mechanic, we get more dmg now and more crit. The new block would work once they fix the dmg reduction and increase recharge speed also make the timer only go down during combat and make it longer or it will be bad for our class. still not sure why the old block didnt just get a buff though.
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Otherwise i prefer the old block just increase the guard HP substantially.
Im in a dungeon and i use guard to block and save my life from hard hitting attacks, but on preview it feels like watered down unstoppable without the attack speed increase or the ability to use encounters and my regular at-wills.
instead when im under duress i bring up my sheild and i end up dying because of all the incoming damage and inability to lifesteal it back (like GWFs can). Shield should give the cleric some breathing space.
Lower the block duration if you have to, I much prefer the old 100% block, even if it means going back to the old system.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
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The normal GF's that did not spec their toon for the old reckless attacker are going to love the new one, those of us who spec'd their toon out especially for the old reckless attacker skill will hate the new one.
Its out of my hands now, been in too many games where a popular class was changed and ended up being nerfed to death, not real fond of going though it again.
Its all up to the devs what they want to do, come what ever date it comes out I'll decide what I am going to do. As in the past mod3 where the HR got changed so much no respecs were issued, players had to start a new toon or buy their own. I have spent too much on this toon to re spec him when his base stats cannot be changed, yes I rolled til I got just the right set of specs for him, now they will be worthless.
If the devs change the class so much that it makes my build worthless, he and my other toons will be stripped and everything will given to the guild I belong to and I will be gone, that is my only choice. This is not a threat, if you knew me you would know I am too dang old to make threats, but it is a promise.
I like this and have the amount of crit go down based on how much block we have.
On the new block however when specced for prot the block meter hardly drains if at all with shield slam in pve and in pvp will last even longer than what is current. If you remember what gentlemancrush said he wants the gf to use block when its needed not hold it up and wait for damage which is also the reason for our con getting a buff for more hp.
If we can get the old RA with a crit buff on it I think that would be proper and not destroy what a lot of gfs who have spec'd conq have, power. With this new RA it tosses the power requirement out the door and forces you to build yourself with more defense than offense so this will funnel most if not all gfs to more defensive builds which will kill most if not all diversity in builds especially for pvp. I really do not want to see the same kind of stats on most gfs, it eliminates diversity which is what there currently is. I really want to prevent this as then this class becomes the same old same old each gf you see.
You can trust me: The stamina how it is now, is a shot in my heart. I can't infinite block a single one opponent anymore! Okay with shield bashing only, but that's a huge damage decrease... So i dislike how it is now. And the change with starting draining stamina after first hit won't help in PvE/PvP, you will see.
You miss one part: The damage reduction is okay. The heal is okay! You only MISS that we need increased defense from our capstone like the sentinel capstone do. Like increased effectiveness of defense and/or AC or +% DR. Essential our DR get increased. We lack that advantage over the other two path, because they can get our +AC/+Deflect Chance TOO!
Bug: Terrifying Impact
Prone goes through CC immunity. Why does it prone targets to begin with when the skill description says it stuns targets?
Feedback: Guardian Fighter
PvP potential of this class needs close monitoring. PvP specced GFs are unkillable 1v1 while they finish you off in 2 rotations. Imo, a class that can run around face-tanking everything you throw at it for 30 minutes not dropping below half health shouldn't be able to kill anything. Nobody wants to see anything that resembles M2 Sentinels ever again.
Preview block seems to be breaking (red color on the Guardmeter and broken Icon) whenever i try to block more than 8+ mobs eventhough my guardmeter is still at 75%.
not sure what it represent but it looks like i can't block whenever it happens
FACT : And don't even try to deny it . THE IMPLEMENTATION OF A BLOCK MECH THAT DIMINISHES W/O ANY DMG TAKEN NO MATTER HOW MANY BOOSTS IT GETS WILL KILL THE CLASS .The 95 % of the community demands the old block with slight buffs.The other changes are completely fine.
Feedback:
The new RA feat is too slow to stack. 5 hits means at least 2 secs the GF will luck the current damage.
Most,if not all Gfs use Lunging strike as their first assigned power both in pve/pvp.Followed by Bull/GW or FS.That means tha in the most crucial moment,the beginning of the battle,the stacks will not be full yet.
Proposal:
Make 3 stacks of 10% and crit by 4% each.
^ Agree 100%.
Something people also need to realize about PVP versus PVE. Right now the classes CANNOT be balanced via PVE because alot of classes outgear the current content ALOT. This is also another reason I dont like the old RA as well, because as soon as you hit some actual challenging content (say they release a new dungeon meant for 16k GS players) youll be blocking like mad to stay alive.
Basically, the old RA that you love because you dont have to block because alot of ppl outgear content, will be useless in content where you DO have to block to survive. Ontop of that I dont know why the PVE crowd would even get mad at this rework, you have so many hard taunts now AND enforced threat has a massive target cap and hard taunts as well, youll have 5 stacks in 1 second of combat.... Not only that but mark gives combat adv, AND Destroyer GWFs have to MASSIVELY choose between ability to take damage and deal damage.
So the old CW/GWF groups wont be as popular and more groups will be LFtank. Not to mention, as ALOT of BOTH PVE and PVP crowd has shown the math, its a DPS boost for any player who has about 11k Power on LIVE currently. If your mad because you power stack before and now you do have to, thats a blessing... The power stack requirement pigeon-holed your gear options.
I was able to solo the first wave of Undead Invasion easily and could even fire off Villain's Menace quite regularly. On live, I wouldn't be able to. A rather underrated plus next to being able to block without repercussion as Conq is that you build APs on light speed. If you switch between block and Fighter's Recovery there's no way you die even as Conq in the current content I guess.
With the experienced AP gain under the new block system, the Tactitian's capstone and feats that give +APs are less viable now. You absolutely don't need any more AP gain as GF and I'd even say it could be scaled back a bit while blocking.
Stamina still sometimes turns red indicating a "guard break" while there's plenty of Stamina left.
Mr Crash
.Let us keep our "OLD" Block instead of tiring yourself out by trying to fix the bugged non needed preview one . If you insist keeping the new block for mod 4 ,the GF Class will DIE .
I think this situation can be significantly improved by increasing the general guard meter pool and/or regeneration rate of the guard meter as well as decreasing the delay until the guard meter starts recovering after taking a hit.
Additionally, I think it is ok in some cases for the guard to be broken during a fight, it makes it interesting and challenging to deal with these situations and to choose from a variety of options. I would like to see some improvements here to make it easier for us. For example, one could reduce the casting time of fighter's recovery (Kessel's Retreat anyone?). Another tweak has already been introduced at the live server, and you mentioned it: CON providing more hp, and thus helping us also to deal a bit better with damage spikes. One last thing about this: I am writing this from the perspective of a conqueror GF who is ok with beeing not that strong on the defensive side, I like evading or having to resort to something else than blocking.
Nevertheless I understand that there are protectors and probably tacticians who rightfully want their guard to be less easy broken if a volley of attacks hails down on them, and who want more tankiness. What I suggest is for them to get buffs to their feats deeper in their respective tree to boost what I wrote in the first paragraph or/and other creative ways to help them in this situation. I feel that there hasn't been made a serious attempt at exploring the creativity here. If I had to be the first one to step up and present ideas, well here is the first one from the top of my head:
Imagine to get (significantly!) higher damage resistance (and maybe CC immunity) x seconds to all damage once your guard is broken. This effect can only occur again after the guard meter has taped the 100% mark. Alternatively this effect could only trigger once in y seconds. (But I am not much a friend of these 'can only happen once in 90 seconds' time gates). Btw I'd love to see that underlined by some sound/graphics like chinking sparks flying of the armor. :cool:
BLOCK
we are still taking more dmg than we should through block it just a reminder this needs a fix then it will be perfect get to it devs
PLEASE add "blocked" back to the game for when you block attacks, its only a small change but it should have not been taken off.
Im Happy with everything else now, thanks for listening to people and making our class more balanced i really feel like mod 4 will make the game more fun for the gf players.
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while blocking dont get 80% reduction dmg + your DR actually just get 41.176405 % of dmg reduction
Reckless Attacker dont increases your dmg only increases the crit chance
FLS still prone players
sometimes the cc affects you while blocking
idk why but sometimes your power down 70 % while blocking
feedback:
Guarded assault need to improve at least 15% of dmg returns
Change Knee breaker is too easy avoid /low range/slow motion
iron warrior / knight´s valor/Villian menace need buffed up whit dmg resit
Shielded resurgence/GRit/TAke a measure/ into the fray need to increase the amount of hit points
whille charge whit lunging strike your will get inmunity cc like root/slow
Iron Guard your shield now block 90/100% incoming dmg and reduces ATK speed/casting speed every enemy hit you
Martyal mastery while fight vs numerous enemies gain more action point
Finally the GF needs an increase in general DR make him better tank than the GWF in any event
The new Block was supposed to be based on Stamina Now, not DPS/Hits is that correct?
The reason I Ask is I just spent 1 hour doing solo trolls Elite etc and 5=1 add pulls to test block etc
1: Block went down in 4 seconds when pulling 5-10 adds but to my understanding its not about how many times you get HIT now its based on the Stamna Value Class Feature +30% Set means I get 10-11 seconds of 80% block Value/Ability and no amount of hits should take away from that time
2: Seems the Guard Icon is bugged some times will be full then Instantly Empty
3: Skills that restore Stamina Show it going to max Instantly not over 8 seconds
Seems Block is going down Very fast against enemys like its STILL based on Damage and not stamina or perhaps maybe I have understood it wrong
Anyone Clarify please?
Any combat action during the animation (before the red line appears) will cancel the cast and put the power on cooldown w/o any affect. On rare occasions this can make the skill completely uncastable until it is removed from the active power slot.
I have read and more importantly I have inspected (in game) other GF's (many, many GF's)and due to the research I have discovered that not all, but close to 75% of the players complaining about the GF class being so lousy isn't because of the class, its because of them.
I see many GF's with racial abilities that do not match what they are trying to be and MOST importantly their basic ability scores, yes STR,CON,DEX are pathetic, do you guys even know u can roll the dice to gain the best set of abilities for your racial selection and class, No I don't think 3/4 of you do. I think you get in such a hurry to make your toon you completely skip that part accepting the stock dice roll for your starting stats. Then when your GF turns out so lousy "Ohhh this class stinks it needs the devs to re do it" !!!
I have seen GF's in complete mismatched armor sets, NO I am not talking about someone going 2/2, or 4/4, I am talking about players going 4/1 meaning no set bonus what so ever, four different pieces from four different sets, but its still the class fault, not theirs that their GF stinks.
Or people that get the PVP set and complain because they do so poorly in PVE, OR the Pve sets and do so poorly in PVP, there are specific builds best suited to PVP and there are specific builds best suited for PVE, learn them and utilize them before you go shouting ohhhhh the GF class is lousy.
But my biggest laugh is from people that want to hide behind a shield. Do you even realize why the GWF has replaced the GF in groups, do you?
Its because of the damage they generate. Damage against a mob is a form of CC, it pulls the boss to them hence the adds direct also towards where the boss is pulled. That is a basic formula of MMO's and it was one of the first forms of CC in any MMO. He who does the most damage pulls the mob.
Then taunt entered the scene, it is a form of damage without causing physical damage, which over powered MOST if not all the DD's. Then it became a game of increasing the damage the GWF's, Nukers and rangers did against the taunt (mark in this game) that the GF's did, without over powering the GF ( guess what someone forgot to adjust the marks power that's why you can no longer control the mobs). The marks power is lower then the damage that the GWF, Nukers and rangers generate, hence they pull the mobs from you.
The main reason other people do not want a GF in their group isn't due to CC, its because even a little girl holding up a cross can do more damage then you do, yeah I'm talking about a cleric.
You think (as a GF)your supposed to hide behind your shield (which in your thinking is supposed to block 100% of all damage against you) and spam mark and the mobs and boss are just magically supposedly to fall in love with you, waltz over and stand by your side, while the rest of the group hails damage upon them.
Get a grip people. As a GF you first MARK, then deal damage (which a GF can do if you know what the heck you are doing when you build him) and only upon the most damaging assaults, raise your shield to block them. You don't just stand there holding your shield up for 30-45 seconds till the rest of your group kills the mob, that's the mentality that has put all the GF's out of the parties. Parties want players that can deal damage so the group doesn't spend 2 hours in a dungeon trying to whittle down or bore a boss to death.
Parties have a limited # of slots, so if a group goes in with only 1-2 DD's it takes forever to kill a boss, along with the added expense of pots and IF the healer goes down the party goes down. A group of DD's even without a healer can control the boss and mobs by selectively hitting and actually pulling the boss and mobs from one player to the other, forcing the boss and mobs to kite between them hence lowering the damage they put out to the group.
Most GWF's do not have half the defense that a lot of you GF's have and they don't have a shield, SO why do you feel you have to stand there and hide behind a shield to be effective. YOU DON"T, you have skills that most of you are not using, prob don't even know about. You can generate damage very comparable to a GWF, which when combined with your taunts(marks) would hold the mob on you allowing you to control it. But you cannot mark a mob then stand there with your shield raised and use that skill that pokes over the top of it at the mob(never used it so don't even know its name, worthless skill) and expect the mob to hold to you.
SO instead of you educating yourself about the class or repairing a broken toon that you made, you come crying to the devs to fix your mistakes!
Now they are going to fix it oky, yeah they are going to fix it for the demands and wishes of the PVP crowd.