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  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    If the shard of endless avalanche damage nurf scaled with the amount of enemies being hit, I would be all for it. But a flat damage reduction severely hurts the abilities effectiveness in any situation. If you hit 5 people with the explosion, then the damage per person could be like -50%, so 10% damage reduction per person. So no matter what you will still be hitting the same as if it was just one person being hit.

    ex: You crit a 10k shard explosion on 1 person
    You crit a 2k shard explosion on 5 different people, adding up to 10k
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW

    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
    [SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
  • angrymanagementangrymanagement Member Posts: 487 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    crazymikee wrote: »
    If the shard of endless avalanche damage nurf scaled with the amount of enemies being hit, I would be all for it. But a flat damage reduction severely hurts the abilities effectiveness in any situation. If you hit 5 people with the explosion, then the damage per person could be like -50%, so 10% damage reduction per person. So no matter what you will still be hitting the same as if it was just one person being hit.

    ex: You crit a 10k shard explosion on 1 person
    You crit a 2k shard explosion on 5 different people, adding up to 10k

    ^^ This.
    As I recall, the GWF abilities drop in damage per target the more targets hit. Why was this not implemented for Shard?
    With the current Shard nerfs, I seem to be able to get more damage out of the nerfed Sudden Storm than Shard half the time.

    As per a prior developer post in this thread, Thaum & Renegade are supposed to be DPS trees...but there isn't much damage left there at least as a SpellStorm.

    Played around on test for a bit last night, and that only viable damage option appears to be MOF, and there seems to be more damage with an Oppressor build than with the "DPS" trees. Waiting for the last mentioned changes to test before looking at it again. Right now COI has no business on the Tab key, and not really worthy of a spot on the other keys. I would take SS over Shard except you have to go Spellstorm to get SS....

    Not really a CW specific item, but they really need to make Artifacts/Companions account bound if they are going to screw up entire classes. (GF, TR, semi CW)
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    As I recall, the GWF abilities drop in damage per target the more targets hit.

    As does Chains of Blazing Light for DC.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • rashylewizzrashylewizz Member Posts: 4,265 Bounty Hunter
    edited June 2014
    crazymikee wrote: »
    If the shard of endless avalanche damage nurf scaled with the amount of enemies being hit, I would be all for it. But a flat damage reduction severely hurts the abilities effectiveness in any situation. If you hit 5 people with the explosion, then the damage per person could be like -50%, so 10% damage reduction per person. So no matter what you will still be hitting the same as if it was just one person being hit.

    ex: You crit a 10k shard explosion on 1 person
    You crit a 2k shard explosion on 5 different people, adding up to 10k

    I am in favor of this idea
  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    crazymikee wrote: »
    If the shard of endless avalanche damage nurf scaled with the amount of enemies being hit, I would be all for it. But a flat damage reduction severely hurts the abilities effectiveness in any situation. If you hit 5 people with the explosion, then the damage per person could be like -50%, so 10% damage reduction per person. So no matter what you will still be hitting the same as if it was just one person being hit.

    ex: You crit a 10k shard explosion on 1 person
    You crit a 2k shard explosion on 5 different people, adding up to 10k

    Correcting my obvious mistake, the shard wouldn't get a damage nurf at all, but instead the damage would be reworked so that the total damage it would do to 1 person would be spread out over 5 people lets say, so you don't even have to reduce the damage, you can just give it kind of a shotgun effect, the amount of pellets is always the same (10k damage) but the pellets (damage) are spread out over however many targets are hit.
    crazymikee wrote: »
    ex: You crit a 10k shard explosion after hitting 1 person
    You crit a 2k shard explosion after hitting 5 people, adding up to 10k
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW

    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
    [SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
  • fgmfanhafgmfanha Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I still don't understand why CW is beeing all reworked? :/
    the shard will stop desapearing when the shard summuner gets controled?
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    ggunch wrote: »
    If its not supposed to be our best nuke then why is it the last spell on our list. By all logical points of view the last spell obtained should be your best, you waited 50 friggin levels to be able to point any points into it.

    If you look at the entirety of the changes it is pretty clear that their goal is to move CW's from "best damager in the game" to "best controller in the game." If that is their true aim, then making the final feat offer great control--and 3.5 seconds of prone is great control--makes sense.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • fgmfanhafgmfanha Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    The feedback about what im feeling about this changes are that you guys dont care about the time spent building a class.. and change everything on it.. and it stoped beeing a damage making class (control is damage on AoE not only stuns) to be a glassy class that gives stuns and doesnt have the ability to finish the job, i.e. killing the mob.

    I would understand a nerf here and there, but all the key used spells are nerfed in cast time and damage output... and the "buff" on arp afecting all abilities its not a buff but a fix..

    CW has allways been a class that gives a lot of AoE damage, yes, that is true.. but it has skill built into its gameplay and you are punished if you fail on it's use.. Making it slower to cast and less output damage is breaking the class! I understand the cooldown times getting bigger... it would make us choose between recovery and other stats.. but the casting time will get us killed a lot on dungeons! it already does as it is on life.
  • fgmfanhafgmfanha Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    If you look at the entirety of the changes it is pretty clear that their goal is to move CW's from "best damager in the game" to "best controller in the game." If that is their true aim, then making the final feat offer great control--and 3.5 seconds of prone is great control--makes sense.

    The thing is... in D&D controlling is doing a lot of damage in AoE.. Gwf's or HR will now be the best controllers in the game! we will be pushed into a suport role of just giving stuns and die a lot! lol
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I stopped reading here, as all your 'testing' was rendered useless by this omission.

    Not to mention there are bugged feats in the Thaum tree at the moment so the class is not WAI right now.

    That was blunt, and in appreciation of your bluntness: It's not an "omission", it's an "admission". Further, your assertion of "was rendered useless" is an unsubstantiated claim.
    The Thaum tree is still the Thaum tree. This is not a new tree, where a lot of respec combination testing would be the start of the conversation.
    What we have here is a reworking of existing feats, and it's entirely appropriate to test how an existing build fares when it's feats are reworked. It's the closest you can possibly get to an "apples for apples" test between Module 3 and Module 4. My "admittedly" was there to acknowledge that it's possible to hope for some kind of improvement through tweaking, but, really, this has been too deeply nerfed. It's very clear in the reading of the documented DEV changes, and I confirmed that what I saw in testing what I expected.
    All the comments on the disappearance of party debuffs and other issues on the "slottability" of the top tier powers (which you never got to as you stopped reading) are self evident.
    Even if there are currently bugs in the implementation, based on the intended design as documented by the DEVs, the eventual outcome will be much the same.
  • fgmfanhafgmfanha Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I'll quote crazymikee with a request:

    "Don't make it into THIS kind of game!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jUVjGUtTIM "
  • silverquicksilverquick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    STEAL TIME: Whoever designed the CW class originally apparently knew that this was the real non damaging "control" spell, its actually based on the old D&D 9th level Spell called... TIME STOP. Which allowed the Wizard to stop time and cast multiple spells on the target.. then with time resumed ALL of those spells cast at once and took effect.... That's the reason this version of it is one of the lower damaging spells of the CW... THIS is the one if you wanted to nerf that damage on, that would be appropriate..... Instead you Increased the damage on this spell when its own nature has nothing to do with Damage.

    SHARDS OF ENDLESS AVALANCHE: This one is based on the old D&D spell called Meteor Swarm. This was the highest damage large area of effect spell the Magic User had. This one was always about damage from the beginning. This is the room clearing spell. NOT a non-damage control spell. It is inappropriate for a damage reduction. That's why its the capstone power of the CW.
    No reason to nerf this one in terms of damage- that was its entire purpose.
  • trollobtrollob Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Hey guys, adding one more incoming change to the list of things going up in the next week or two. We really like the concept of Shard, but having it be bar none your best nuke was worrying, especially given that in dungeon and group content it was often pretty hard not to get the most out of it. However we do like the control aspect it does bring and the skill required to land that when there are less foes (or in PVP where it should still merit a slot). Given that we are making the following change to reinforce that.

    Control Wizard: Shard of the Endless Avalanche: This power now prones NPCs for 3.5 seconds (up from 1) and prones players for 2.25 seconds (up from 1).

    Thank you all for your continued feedback.

    Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer

    I thought you were going to take away prones in PVP since you nerfed prone encounters from GWFs and reduced damage from these, nice combo. Very interesting but i consider unfair changes i want to see what will you do with bull charge.

    Ray of enfeeblement still benefits allies in PVP?
  • cloud990plcloud990pl Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Gonna check shard CC buff (sound good)
    hmmmm.... still waiting for Storm Cage gentlemancrush ;) but with all this I'm going to have dillema on what to use on my bar :D

    Edit OFFTOP: Is it only me or is forum banner (neverwinter shadmowmantle/curse of IWD) overlaps on each other
  • ychiakiychiaki Member Posts: 123 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    fgmfanha wrote: »
    I'll quote crazymikee with a request:

    "Don't make it into THIS kind of game!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jUVjGUtTIM "

    Don't start with that, the only power of the game that would cause that on a HR is Ray of Frost and that's why you have encounters and dailies. Gentlemancrush said "This will help them eat more sustained damage without impacting burst damage in any really immediate way." and RoF is ideal for that.
    DC Divine Oracle Faithful
    HR Stormwarden Trapper / Stormwarden Combat
    GWF Swordmaster Destroyer
    CW Master of Flame Thaumaturge / Spellstorm Oppressor
    TR Master Infiltrator Executioner
    SW Soulbinder Fury
  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    ychiaki wrote: »
    Don't start with that, the only power of the game that would cause that on a HR is Ray of Frost and that's why you have encounters and dailies. Gentlemancrush said "This will help them eat more sustained damage without impacting burst damage in any really immediate way." and RoF is ideal for that.

    Lol they already fixed that and it was a joke, I was one of those CWs and we all had a big laugh.
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW

    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
    [SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    loboguild wrote: »
    The prone from the original push or from explosion?

    ..the world may never know.



    Until it gets added to the preview :))
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW

    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
    [SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
  • adamy2004adamy2004 Member Posts: 226 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    crazymikee wrote: »
    Lol they already fixed that and it was a joke, I was one of those CWs and we all had a big laugh.

    ur forgetting the fact thats the HR not fighting back. in a 1v1, literally as soon as the HR can cast 1 root from hindering shot. the cw is dead in the next 2-3 hits
    Don't waste my time.
  • silverquicksilverquick Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    crazymikee wrote: »
    ..the world may never know.



    Until it gets added to the preview :))

    Mike... Shards was not a single target spell... its an AoE. While its great for PvP... that's not what the Wizard class is. That's the Warlock.

    If they really want to go with this, they need to make a different class. Because Turning the CW into a Striker class (aka, single target) and removing the AoEs is basically doing just that. In which case they're going to have to seriously power up the Single Target damage spells.

    Thats not what the Wizard class is.
  • crazymikeecrazymikee Member Posts: 694 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Mike... Shards was not a single target spell... its an AoE. While its great for PvP... that's not what the Wizard class is. That's the Warlock.

    If they really want to go with this, they need to make a different class. Because Turning the CW into a Striker class (aka, single target) and removing the AoEs is basically doing just that. In which case they're going to have to seriously power up the Single Target damage spells.

    Thats not what the Wizard class is.

    Yea but in reality not every situation demands high AoE damage and their nurf was overall, making it horrid for single target and still underpowered for multiple targets. The way I see it, if they have to do some kind of nurf to the shard, may aswell be multiplicative so you can still have some effectiveness from it
    Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
    CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW

    Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
    [SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
  • spongebob56spongebob56 Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    adamy2004 wrote: »
    ur forgetting the fact thats the HR not fighting back. in a 1v1, literally as soon as the HR can cast 1 root from hindering shot. the cw is dead in the next 2-3 hits

    The developers were aware of the issue and put in a fix already.
  • adamy2004adamy2004 Member Posts: 226 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    The developers were aware of the issue and put in a fix already.

    what they fixed HRs ability 1 shot people with a 40k aimshot? they fixed thornward ticking for 9k crits per tick with over 100% crit chance?, they fixed the ability to perma root people to death?........ ye try again m8
    Don't waste my time.
  • ggunchggunch Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 30
    edited June 2014
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    If you look at the entirety of the changes it is pretty clear that their goal is to move CW's from "best damager in the game" to "best controller in the game." If that is their true aim, then making the final feat offer great control--and 3.5 seconds of prone is great control--makes sense.

    Actually it makes no sense, the Control Wizard in D&D which is what this game is supposed to be controls the battlefield by using large damaging AoE spells thus forcing the enemies to split up to avoid damage and rendering them in-effective. The control wizard is and was never about freezing people in place or knocking them down or any of that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> it was always about area of effect damage terrain manipulation. This idea that control wizard means to incapacitate and not damage comes from the lack of knowledge about the D&D setting. Also the only reason you meter watchers are seeing CW's topping the damage charts is because they are doing AoE damage. Where are they when it comes to single target damage? Right where they are supposed to be, lower than everyone else. They are not the best damager in the game they just happen to have more AoE so hitting 15 mobs for 1k each ends up doing more damage than hitting one mob for 5k but the effect is the CW did less damage on the boss but effects the entire battle to clean up his friends. That is the essence of the CW, parse their damage on single targets compared to similar gear and skill TR or GWF or even good HR and you will see its not so OP to need this massive reduction in effectiveness.
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    The shard prone won't help us a bit against all those control immune mobs. The damage was good against them, but that's gone.
  • spongebob56spongebob56 Member Posts: 234 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    hfgtfsdfs wrote: »
    Thats sounds good. Makes up for the damage nerf on shard. Maybe buff the damage 15-20%.

    I think that would be going in the wrong direction. Currently the DPS output from CWs is extreme. What they are trying to do is throttle it back a bit and reign it in. They are also trying to create a clear division between control and damage builds. The end result is we should have some unique and varied builds for CWs instead of The One Build. I'm actually considering switching my CW from Thaum (DPS) to Oppressor (Control) with these changes.

    On the GWF side they are doing something similar with Destroyer as DPS and Sentinel as a tank. The HR division between melee and archery is a bit more complicated though (dare say messy). It should be interesting in the end though.
  • iambecks1iambecks1 Member Posts: 4,044 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    aulduron wrote: »
    The shard prone won't help us a bit against all those control immune mobs. The damage was good against them, but that's gone.

    I think that's the point , to try to make GF more useful in future . I like the sound of the change but have yet to try it out but CW sounds like it will be able to lock down large numbers of enemy mobs at least ,if nothing else.
    YourSecretsAreOurSecrets.gif
  • hfgtfsdfshfgtfsdfs Member Posts: 688 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I think that would be going in the wrong direction. Currently the DPS output from CWs is extreme. What they are trying to do is throttle it back a bit and reign it in. They are also trying to create a clear division between control and damage builds. The end result is we should have some unique and varied builds for CWs instead of The One Build. I'm actually considering switching my CW from Thaum (DPS) to Oppressor (Control) with these changes.

    On the GWF side they are doing something similar with Destroyer as DPS and Sentinel as a tank. The HR division between melee and archery is a bit more complicated though (dare say messy). It should be interesting in the end though.

    They can buff the TAB version of it because its needed in PvP. And to be honest all these changes are forcing everyone to the oppressor tree in both PvP and PvE. Thaum and Renegade lack the DPS and the control. Only reason Oppressor might be good is for the shatter.
    ZengiaH@ejziponken
  • aulduronaulduron Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,351 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    The end result is we should have some unique and varied builds for CWs instead of The One Build. I'm actually considering switching my CW from Thaum (DPS) to Oppressor (Control) with these changes.

    Looks to me like they want all CWs to switch to Oppressor or quit.
    I think that's the point , to try to make GF more useful in future . I like the sound of the change but have yet to try it out but CW sounds like it will be able to lock down large numbers of enemy mobs at least ,if nothing else.

    So what damage boosts are the giving GFs?
  • fgmfanhafgmfanha Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    ggunch wrote: »
    Actually it makes no sense, the Control Wizard in D&D which is what this game is supposed to be controls the battlefield by using large damaging AoE spells thus forcing the enemies to split up to avoid damage and rendering them in-effective. The control wizard is and was never about freezing people in place or knocking them down or any of that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> it was always about area of effect damage terrain manipulation. This idea that control wizard means to incapacitate and not damage comes from the lack of knowledge about the D&D setting. Also the only reason you meter watchers are seeing CW's topping the damage charts is because they are doing AoE damage. Where are they when it comes to single target damage? Right where they are supposed to be, lower than everyone else. They are not the best damager in the game they just happen to have more AoE so hitting 15 mobs for 1k each ends up doing more damage than hitting one mob for 5k but the effect is the CW did less damage on the boss but effects the entire battle to clean up his friends. That is the essence of the CW, parse their damage on single targets compared to similar gear and skill TR or GWF or even good HR and you will see its not so OP to need this massive reduction in effectiveness.

    Unfortunantly they dont listen.. with the changes to CW damage nerf on AoE the name of the game D&D is misleading
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    aulduron wrote: »
    Looks to me like they want all CWs to switch to Oppressor or quit.

    At the moment, that's how it is. But be patient. They're listening and making changes based on feeback. There's still plenty of time until this goes live. We still haven't even been able to test the Thaumaturge tree or the new cooldown on Eye of the Storm since the former was bugged and the latter hasn't made it to the preview server yet.

    And just so people are aware, there are still builds capable of dishing out a healthy amount of damage. Last night I started the HE Rescue the Prospectors with 7 minutes remaining. I was able to take down all of the starting mobs and all of the reinforcements in 5 minutes. The boss killed me with 1 minute left in the HE. Given more time I probably could have beaten it. That's quite a bit of damage in a small amount of time. However, the build I was using bore no resemblance to my current one. I had to completely alter my build to make it work. I think that is what has people the most freaked out. It's not that they're making the damage totally disappear, it's that the builds and spell rotations that people have come to know and love are being neutered. But rest assured there are still other ways to get the job done.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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