You need to put bugs in red and suggested changes in cyan the developer uses this system so he can easily read feedback without having to trawl through pages of comments and stuff, just a heads up.
Ty, corrected.
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hexanna22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 204Bounty Hunter
if all the classes had their role in NW, then why most groups in LFG are made of CW/GWF? why no one wants GF/TR/and many times HR too?
because just those 2 classes can serg through dungeons without caring about anything else. CWs recover 100% hearlth with lifesteal and GWF don't care about damage with unstoppable, the devs want to balance that, so all classes are equally required.
I think the idea is that dungeons should be taken 1 enemy group at a time, what we have now is groups of CW and GWF gathering all the mobs in a room and then nuking all of them at once, and making dungeons last around 10 mins. I don't think that's what the devs had in mind when designing them.
Join a guild. i have never not even once in my whole year + playing used LFG. In my last guild we ran everything in every dungeon, even pvp specc'd only alts. Often times if we did take more than 1 CW it was because either that was all that was on, or, we were bringing new alts that had no gear and knew we needed more DPS. Sometimes we ran with no CW at all!! Imagine that!
If your guild doesn't advertise groups in it's chat or only runs certain groups, then join a better guild for you.
Also, again , Devs could make more creative dungeons, and more content. I almost puke everytime someone asks me to do CN, and still this is the top dungeon people want to do, a year later.
And in every "proof" video, the opponent seems to be playing in slow motion, doing 1 attack every 5 seconds. Never seen PVP done like that. Besides, what's the GS of the 2 people fighting? Please record the inspect as well. And no, I don't trust people. Cause people lie to get what they want, always have, always will. Most players in this game are PVE, not PVP. PVP has a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of factors to count in. It's not just class, it's enchants and gear. And saying nothing has a chance? I keep seeing CWs on the test server getting killed in PVP 1v1. With the CW having higher GS than whatever it is fighting...
It's about spec, gear, enchants. It's not the class itself. And comparing classes is a lot harder than looking at recorded PVP fights. For one, cause not once in those videos does the recorder go into inspect on the 2 fighting and show their GS. Video has 0 value as proof. For all we know, the opponent can be anywhere up to 5k lower in GS.
yup, please lisaxxii reply again with some video reply showing how good CW is now in PvE...
On the other hand I've done MC 3/3 with my guildmates as 3CW,HR&DC party; I changed my paragon and spec to MoF Oppressor (since that was supposed to be "controller tree" other 2 CWs were SS Thaums (mainly dps aoe feats), HR was archer tree and lets leave DC since nothing changed.
Before 1st boss dps board was like this:
1) HR ~8M
2) CW (SS thaum) ~3M
3) CW (SS thaum) ~1.5M
4) Me 0 (I was still changing feats, powers and boons while they took and killed everything in their way)
at the end situation looked like this:
1) HR ~20M
2) CW (SS Thaum) ~8M
3) CW (SS Thaum) ~6M
4) Me ~5M
PS My GS was 14.5 and I used plague fire enchant (HR and CWs used Vorpal-unknow rank)
Soooo let me put some light for you here: with theese changes you won't see 2CW, 2GWF&1DC/3GWF parties but 4CW&HR/3CW+HR&DC
parties
I really understand that it is saturday and probably there's no one at the office to reply and probably no one is working on some changes to theese "changes" right "now" but please, if you want to turn CW into real controller then nerfing its feats granting more damage is just mean way to do it. Lowering damage is good way to make CW secondary striker but taking his control as well, instead of giving him more, makes this nerf unreasonable (also increasing ST damage instead of stun duration or adding additional effect makes no sense at all with this "more control, less damage" balance).
Change damage granting feats into bonus control and oppressor feats into actual controller tree because right now its not controller tree, its something.... well, something weird that tries to be buffer/debuffer while also being troll freezing people in PvP
Great, post videos of Castle Never if you can. Will be really fun to see the new op cw with sungu taking 8 mobs at Castle Never, im sure will be convincing for everyone.
I think they are referring to the perma freeze oppressor build 1v1 videos where the opponent doesn't seem interested in actually fighting back , I'd love to see a full CN or MC run with these op CW's , not staged pvp 1v1 fights.
Join a guild. i have never not even once in my whole year + playing used LFG. In my last guild we ran everything in every dungeon, even pvp specc'd only alts. Often times if we did take more than 1 CW it was because either that was all that was on, or, we were bringing new alts that had no gear and knew we needed more DPS. Sometimes we ran with no CW at all!! Imagine that!
If your guild doesn't advertise groups in it's chat or only runs certain groups, then join a better guild for you.
Also, again , Devs could make more creative dungeons, and more content. I almost puke everytime someone asks me to do CN, and still this is the top dungeon people want to do, a year later.
Let me rephrase this, I personally don't have any troubles finding groups for my TR because I use the legit channel and guildruns, but I'm talking about LFG, that most people still use.
I think they are referring to the perma freeze oppressor build 1v1 videos where the opponent doesn't seem interested in actually fighting back , I'd love to see a full CN or MC run with these op CW's , not staged pvp 1v1 fights.
The sound was removed from the videos to help them get approved for posting on the forums. If there was sound you would be able to hear the GF spamming his encounters the entire time. (PM me if you are interested in a version with sound as I can provide that). Also in one of the videos the CW let the GF attack first and get a full rotation off, the CW then runs the GF with 40k hp to 0 in one near-perfect stunlock. You will see the few holes in the stun lock as the GF manages to get a lunging strike off before being locked again.
The gear level of the two involved are identical (the CW is actually using High Vizer and no Tenacity Gear whereas the GF is).
This is not difficult to do as a CW so you can go test it yourself if you think the video is somehow "staged", however anyone who PvP's will be able to see it is a legit fight. The skill level of those involved is irrelevant as the GF is clearly locked, through guard, for the duration of the fight.
I will PM one of the videos to everyone who has shown interest or doubt here. I would love to post it here but if I do so without permission I will be banned. Please stand by I am seeking approval from Akromatic.
Any PvE implications I cannot speak to as I do not do PvE and know very little about CW's anyway. This may be irrelevant for PvE players, but it is a very big problem for PvP players.
Enemy Team
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I honestly don't think that they need a change in PVE. GWFs always outdamaged me in dungeons anyway. If you think about it you could figure out, that it would be better to enhence TR performence in dungeons then to nerf other classes to the point where they are as usless as TR. I mean come on, its a wizzard, a mage. He is supposed to be a freakin nuker. Now its neighter Control nor Wizzard. Mod 4 LFG chat will look like - GWF 16k+ LF4M GWF/GWF/DC/DC AoW set only!!!
Exactly. It is already difficult to keep pace with certain GWFs in regards of damage. CWs are working fine. No need to change anything. Buff HR split shot again (and tone down the aggro part from it) and perhaps give TR some better 'control'.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
no, they were not fine in pvp. dungeons were never meant to gather all the mobs in a room and then nuke them together. they were ddesigned to face 1 mob group at a time with a group.
so both GWF and CW needed to be toned down, heavy.
I'm sorry but it's the truth.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
no, they were not fine in pvp. dungeons were never meant to gather all the mobs in a room and then nuke them together. they were ddesigned to face 1 mob group at a time with a group.
so both GWF and CW needed to be toned down, heavy.
I'm sorry but it's the truth.
No, you are wrong. There is basically no need to face 1 small mob group one by one unless you play with total noobs. If you play with people who know what they are doing then why should they pull always 1 small mob group, you have no idea how tedious all dungeons will become if you force this playstile. Please think for a moment about the current situation. The dungeons are already very long and monotonic. You want to make them even more tedious?? I say buff HR and perhaps TR but dont touch GWFs and CWs so that all classes are usefull in a group. (And by the way: CWs are also strong in PvP, if you know what you are doing). Nerf CWs and you see 4CWs and 1DC partys only, since the lack in control has to be compensated.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
you honestly think that dungeons were meant for a group to grab all the mobs in a room at once and nuke them together and take less than 10 mins to run the whole thing? you think that's what the devs wanted us to do?
this is the only game Ive heard that endgame dungeons take so little time to be finished.
no, they were not fine in pvp. dungeons were never meant to gather all the mobs in a room and then nuke them together. they were ddesigned to face 1 mob group at a time with a group.
so both GWF and CW needed to be toned down, heavy.
I'm sorry but it's the truth.
Then why are there mobs with like 10+ adds? Have you ever ran CN? My guild has found uses for all classes there and its the most add heavy dungeon in the game. Of course CW excels in this environment, but take the amount of adds away and the usefulness diminishes.
You sound like you have never played a T2.
And do you know how people group all the adds and nuke them in ten minutes? perfect vorpals and 15k-18k GS in a 8.3k GS dungeon. Thats how.
I love bringing GF's, TR's and HR's that know what they are doing. They all contribute to the speed of the run.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
you honestly think that dungeons were meant for a group to grab all the mobs in a room at once and nuke them together and take less than 10 mins to run the whole thing? you think that's what the devs wanted us to do?
this is the only game Ive heard that endgame dungeons take so little time to be finished.
Yes, because it will take only low time if you play with well-geared characters. As the dungeons were created, t2 were the best set and usually people with 12k-13k did CN. We didnt had artifacts and boons. The dungeons are not on par with the current gear, thats all. Nowadays you make CN runs with 14k-19k people. Expect that they rush through the content.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
I think they are referring to the perma freeze oppressor build 1v1 videos where the opponent doesn't seem interested in actually fighting back , I'd love to see a full CN or MC run with these op CW's , not staged pvp 1v1 fights.
You do realize nothing right now can break freezing in preview, right? Not even unstoppable. If you go cc immune you can prevent more stacks, but you CANNOT break out of freezing, you have to wait for it to end by itself. So, if someone looks like they aren't interested when they go cc immune, they can't help it.
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hexanna22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 204Bounty Hunter
The sound was removed from the videos to help them get approved for posting on the forums. If there was sound you would be able to hear the GF spamming his encounters the entire time. (PM me if you are interested in a version with sound as I can provide that). Also in one of the videos the CW let the GF attack first and get a full rotation off, the CW then runs the GF with 40k hp to 0 in one near-perfect stunlock. You will see the few holes in the stun lock as the GF manages to get a lunging strike off before being locked again.
The gear level of the two involved are identical (the CW is actually using High Vizer and no Tenacity Gear whereas the GF is).
This is not difficult to do as a CW so you can go test it yourself if you think the video is somehow "staged", however anyone who PvP's will be able to see it is a legit fight. The skill level of those involved is irrelevant as the GF is clearly locked, through guard, for the duration of the fight.
I will PM one of the videos to everyone who has shown interest or doubt here. I would love to post it here but if I do so without permission I will be banned. Please stand by I am seeking approval from Akromatic.
Any PvE implications I cannot speak to as I do not do PvE and know very little about CW's anyway. This may be irrelevant for PvE players, but it is a very big problem for PvP players.
Well, I mean, it's a GF...you can do this now and prob faster:)
But also for clarity, could you also make sure that the cw wasnt using companions....and running with 9-10K Power and Cockatrice in open world?
You do realize nothing right now can break freezing in preview, right? Not even unstoppable. If you go cc immune you can prevent more stacks, but you CANNOT break out of freezing, you have to wait for it to end by itself. So, if someone looks like they aren't interested when they go cc immune, they can't help it.
Yeah I know that but it doesn't change the fact that the build in pve isn't really an option , 1v1 in pvp it might be really good but in a dungeon full of adds shooting Ray of frost into a group of mobs isn't really going to cut it so my original point stands , in pvp the oppressor build might be op but for pve the class has been nerfed into near pointlessness , especially Spellstorm renegade , no doubt that something had to be done to reduce damage in pve so other classes could have a look in but to say these nerfs leave CW OP is really just nonsense and that was what my post was intended to address , the guy who plays a GF who decided to come troll the CW feedback thread by claiming it is now OP and not to worry..
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
Sorry guys but the feedback threads have become way too messy with various speculations and back and forth discussions.
Now I am not infallable and pulled many things you may not agree with me grabbing. If you do then you can of course send me a PM about any specfic post and I will look into it but ideally we ask that you post your feedback in a direct format so it is easier for the deverlopers to read and understand your concerns in this specific situation.
If you want to discuss speculation or disagree with other posts rather than directing your feedback and experiences to the developers than please do so here. Thanks!
Off Topic Note: It seems this oddly enough has to be explained. Dungeons were never intended to be done by dragging as much as you can around and burn them all at once. The fact that could be done without a GF was the icing on top. Sadly many posts I grabbed were arguing based on the desire to continue that and that absolutely was not something that was ever intended to be done to begin with.
Snip --The thing basically showed that the intention indeed was to nerf just about everything with the only AoE class in the game. To make it unplayable. To nerf it recklessly.
A blue item for warlock just dropped for me on test shard.
This is as I suspected why CW was being gutted.
Devs if this is true, can you please make artifacts account bound? Not to mention a years worth of companions.
Everybody who is making posts exclaiming doom PLEASE , log onto the test shard and TEST the changes and give FEEDBACK , the whole reason they put the nerfs up on preview was so we can try them and offer feedback on what we think and what nerfs cut too deep , just making post after post saying you will change class and stuff will not help ,if the proposed nerfs are too much you need to test and then explain why.
Off Topic Note: It seems this oddly enough has to be explained. Dungeons were never intended to be done by dragging as much as you can around and burn them all at once. The fact that could be done without a GF was the icing on top. Sadly many posts I grabbed were arguing based on the desire to continue that and that absolutely was not something that was ever intended to be done to begin with.
Hmmm, I frequently bring a GF with me in these kinds of runs. Actually, it is preferable that way. Also, these kinds of runs are done by players that greatly outgear the content they are running. It does not require many CW's to achieve, or any, for that matter. These kinds of massive pulls are not possible for the average skilled and average geared (10k-12k) players.
Also, I thought we were given freedoms within dungeons to complete them however we wanted as long as we stay within the physical boundaries of the map and don't do any exploits etc.
I say everyone just play a gwf. Don't play ANY other class since that's the class that the dev's obviously want us all to play. In fact I say we all vote to change their name to Control weapon fighters since they have WAY MORE CONTROL than a Control Wizard.
I say everyone just play a gwf. Don't play ANY other class since that's the class that the dev's obviously want us all to play. In fact I say we all vote to change their name to Control weapon fighters since they have WAY MORE CONTROL than a Control Wizard.
GWF are getting a big hit to Unstoppable to where if you don't spec for Sentinel, its like Unstoppable adds nothing to your defense.
Yeah I know that but it doesn't change the fact that the build in pve isn't really an option , 1v1 in pvp it might be really good but in a dungeon full of adds shooting Ray of frost into a group of mobs isn't really going to cut it so my original point stands , in pvp the oppressor build might be op but for pve the class has been nerfed into near pointlessness , especially Spellstorm renegade , no doubt that something had to be done to reduce damage in pve so other classes could have a look in but to say these nerfs leave CW OP is really just nonsense and that was what my post was intended to address , the guy who plays a GF who decided to come troll the CW feedback thread by claiming it is now OP and not to worry..
Pretty obvious you have not tested it out.
Infact from reading the comments id say 80-90% of CWs have no idea what they are talking about.
Preview damage cannot be tested, despite what people say. because important feats are not working, so we do not know how big a drop in dps this is. Not to mention this is very early on. So all this raging and wailing is all speculation. It feels like most CWs want to and like to outshine everyone.
Also, I thought we were given freedoms within dungeons to complete them however we wanted as long as we stay within the physical boundaries of the map and don't do any exploits etc.
You may do the dungeons however you can but you are intended to want to bring various classes. Each class is intended to bring both strengths and weaknesses to the composition and a variety is intended to be desired although not necessarily mandated. So just because you may doesn't mean you are intended to do so.
However as anybody can tell you at this point in time Control Wizard and/or GWF stacking reigns supreme replacing not only the GF but in some cases the DC as well. That is not intended.
If you can do it you may but understand that the goal will always be to make all classes desirable in dungeons.
Off Topic Note: It seems this oddly enough has to be explained. Dungeons were never intended to be done by dragging as much as you can around and burn them all at once. The fact that could be done without a GF was the icing on top. Sadly many posts I grabbed were arguing based on the desire to continue that and that absolutely was not something that was ever intended to be done to begin with.
Would you like us to run the dungeon in single file? Would you like me to not use any heals and force players to buy health stones from the Zen Shop because I can overheal my allies?
I get it, the NPC's have emotions too and are unhappy they aren't able to handle the death and destruction my guild party dishes out because we've clearly studied, adapted and can run CN quite efficiently (rainbow party or not) with synergistic weapon enchants & encounters?
Really? They weren't suppose to be done by dragging as much as you can around? Then maybe more doors should be in place, not nerfs? Why wasn't there any previous transparency regarding this, somehow, all of a sudden, unintended method of running dungeons? It's more of a high-risk, high-reward style. I wouldn't be surprised if this is done by many experienced dungeon runners. I mean, after the 100th time, and being geared to the hilt, it isn't difficult to pull off.
Cleric:Marquis Elmdore - Current Main Wizard: Iamblichus Fighter: Anna the Titan Barbarian: Anann Valkyrja Ranger: Minerva Cory'phaia Warlock: Suri Coralyne Reid
I got the Ok from Ambisinisterr to share these two Vids.
The CW is rocken high Vizer (hasn't played his CW for months) and he has a lot of empty enchant slots on his gear.
The GF is speced Pre Mod3 Conq and is pretty well geared with full tenacity gear (none of the Mod3 Stuff though)
The GF did everything he could to defend himself, if there was sound in the video you would be able to hear him spamming Lunging the entire time (and also cursing quite a bit :P), you can see LS fire immediately when there is a small gap in the stunlock but the CW is able to get him frozen again before the encounter even hits (you can see the cooldown did not trigger).
You can also see examples of stuns going through shield (entangling does NOT go through shield, we tested), this is more a GF issue so I'll leave that where it belongs.
In the first video the CW let the GF open with a prone and then fought back to his fullest. The GF did all he could. There is simply nothing any class can do in this situation. I Believe it needs to be addressed.
In this one you can see entangling force take effect after the CW has been proned, and then the stunlock is applied and maintained. The GF almost got away a few times, but that was mainly due to them both laughing their butts off on TS :P
Lets keep it positive and leave "skill" and gear arguments out of this. The purpose of the video is to demonstrate a mechanic that needs to be looked at, and I believe it does that well enough.
Thanks.
Enemy Team
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited June 2014
It is more likely that the developers thought the sheer volume of mobs would kill the group.
They likely didn't expect CW's to be able to effortlessly keep extreme volumes of adds under control without needing a GF or other classes to keep them alive.
You can kick and scream all you like but none of the "I want to CC and burn everything" addresses the real problem: CW's controlled enough that they didn't need the GF. Why would they need a GF to keep the adds off them if the adds were perpetually controlled?
Which is the end all, be all. CW's got to a point that the only thing they needed was either a DC to heal of a GWF to do the initial tanking. That was never intended and had to be addressed. And while you may not like it there is absolutely no way that leaving CW's at their current power level will do that.
It is more likely that the developers thought the sheer volume of mobs would kill the group.
They likely didn't expect CW's to be able to effortlessly keep extreme volumes of adds under control without needing a GF or other classes to keep them alive.
You can kick and scream all you like but none of the "I want to CC and burn everything" addresses the real problem: CW's controlled enough that they didn't need the GF. Why would they need a GF to keep the adds off them if the adds were perpetually controlled?
Which is the end all, be all. CW's got to a point that the only thing they needed was either a DC to heal of a GWF to do the initial tanking. That was never intended and had to be addressed. And while you may not like it there is absolutely no way that leaving CW's at their current power level will do that.
I frequently run with rainbow parties, and I prefer it. And pulling massive mob trains? Its easier and more effective to kill groups one at a time, the massive mob pulls are more about fun. AOE damage is still ver important(as well as AOE CC). And a GF enables groups to do even more massive mob pulls. Lots of GF's are just bad, but I know an amazing one that always benefits the party and carries his weight. I also know a great TR that I always love to bring. My groups never exceed 2 CW's and often take 2 TR's. Whoever is online in the guild really.
The GWF and CW changes will be most noticed by the lower geared players. The learning curve for them will be a lot steeper. I'm still going to stick by my CW if these current changes go live, but I don't know what the class would be if they did. Oppressor looks cooler than it was before. The loss of debuffs will hurt the entire group. I dont mind the singularity cap. The changes are a loss of DPS, control, and debuffs. So what is the intended purpose of the wizard? I guess I'll post back here when I have done a rainbow CN on the preview.
I got the Ok from Ambisinisterr to share these two Vids.
The CW is rocken high Vizer (hasn't played his CW for months) and he has a lot of empty enchant slots on his gear.
The GF is speced Pre Mod3 Conq and is pretty well geared with full tenacity gear (none of the Mod3 Stuff though)
The GF did everything he could to defend himself, if there was sound in the video you would be able to hear him spamming Lunging the entire time (and also cursing quite a bit :P), you can see LS fire immediately when there is a small gap in the stunlock but the CW is able to get him frozen again before the encounter even hits (you can see the cooldown did not trigger).
You can also see examples of stuns going through shield (entangling does NOT go through shield, we tested), this is more a GF issue so I'll leave that where it belongs.
In the first video the CW let the GF open with a prone and then fought back to his fullest. The GF did all he could. There is simply nothing any class can do in this situation. I Believe it needs to be addressed.
In this one you can see entangling force take effect after the CW has been proned, and then the stunlock is applied and maintained. The GF almost got away a few times, but that was mainly due to them both laughing their butts off on TS :P
Lets keep it positive and leave "skill" and gear arguments out of this. The purpose of the video is to demonstrate a mechanic that needs to be looked at, and I believe it does that well enough.
Thanks.
But what about PVE? I think its quite a shame that changes are made that adversely affect pvers as a result of pvp.
I got the Ok from Ambisinisterr to share these two Vids.
The CW is rocken high Vizer (hasn't played his CW for months) and he has a lot of empty enchant slots on his gear.
The GF is speced Pre Mod3 Conq and is pretty well geared with full tenacity gear (none of the Mod3 Stuff though)
The GF did everything he could to defend himself, if there was sound in the video you would be able to hear him spamming Lunging the entire time (and also cursing quite a bit :P), you can see LS fire immediately when there is a small gap in the stunlock but the CW is able to get him frozen again before the encounter even hits (you can see the cooldown did not trigger).
You can also see examples of stuns going through shield (entangling does NOT go through shield, we tested), this is more a GF issue so I'll leave that where it belongs.
In the first video the CW let the GF open with a prone and then fought back to his fullest. The GF did all he could. There is simply nothing any class can do in this situation. I Believe it needs to be addressed.
In this one you can see entangling force take effect after the CW has been proned, and then the stunlock is applied and maintained. The GF almost got away a few times, but that was mainly due to them both laughing their butts off on TS :P
Lets keep it positive and leave "skill" and gear arguments out of this. The purpose of the video is to demonstrate a mechanic that needs to be looked at, and I believe it does that well enough.
Thanks.
After watching the video and reading your text....I do not get what you are trying to say. Using Repel with Ray of Frost, then using entangling force was how I trivialized many of the solo content bosses. It locks down one person. My belief is that PvP is a team event, not a 1 v 1. It takes a while to take someone down with that method. Leaving plenty of time for their friends to clean your clock. I fail to see an issue with this.
If there is an issue with this, you need to be a little more clear cause I do not see it.
Comments
Ty, corrected.
Join a guild. i have never not even once in my whole year + playing used LFG. In my last guild we ran everything in every dungeon, even pvp specc'd only alts. Often times if we did take more than 1 CW it was because either that was all that was on, or, we were bringing new alts that had no gear and knew we needed more DPS. Sometimes we ran with no CW at all!! Imagine that!
If your guild doesn't advertise groups in it's chat or only runs certain groups, then join a better guild for you.
Also, again , Devs could make more creative dungeons, and more content. I almost puke everytime someone asks me to do CN, and still this is the top dungeon people want to do, a year later.
yup, please lisaxxii reply again with some video reply showing how good CW is now in PvE...
On the other hand I've done MC 3/3 with my guildmates as 3CW,HR&DC party; I changed my paragon and spec to MoF Oppressor (since that was supposed to be "controller tree" other 2 CWs were SS Thaums (mainly dps aoe feats), HR was archer tree and lets leave DC since nothing changed.
Before 1st boss dps board was like this:
1) HR ~8M
2) CW (SS thaum) ~3M
3) CW (SS thaum) ~1.5M
4) Me 0 (I was still changing feats, powers and boons while they took and killed everything in their way)
at the end situation looked like this:
1) HR ~20M
2) CW (SS Thaum) ~8M
3) CW (SS Thaum) ~6M
4) Me ~5M
PS My GS was 14.5 and I used plague fire enchant (HR and CWs used Vorpal-unknow rank)
Soooo let me put some light for you here: with theese changes you won't see 2CW, 2GWF&1DC/3GWF parties but 4CW&HR/3CW+HR&DC
parties
I really understand that it is saturday and probably there's no one at the office to reply and probably no one is working on some changes to theese "changes" right "now" but please, if you want to turn CW into real controller then nerfing its feats granting more damage is just mean way to do it. Lowering damage is good way to make CW secondary striker but taking his control as well, instead of giving him more, makes this nerf unreasonable (also increasing ST damage instead of stun duration or adding additional effect makes no sense at all with this "more control, less damage" balance).
Change damage granting feats into bonus control and oppressor feats into actual controller tree because right now its not controller tree, its something.... well, something weird that tries to be buffer/debuffer while also being troll freezing people in PvP
I think they are referring to the perma freeze oppressor build 1v1 videos where the opponent doesn't seem interested in actually fighting back , I'd love to see a full CN or MC run with these op CW's , not staged pvp 1v1 fights.
Let me rephrase this, I personally don't have any troubles finding groups for my TR because I use the legit channel and guildruns, but I'm talking about LFG, that most people still use.
The sound was removed from the videos to help them get approved for posting on the forums. If there was sound you would be able to hear the GF spamming his encounters the entire time. (PM me if you are interested in a version with sound as I can provide that). Also in one of the videos the CW let the GF attack first and get a full rotation off, the CW then runs the GF with 40k hp to 0 in one near-perfect stunlock. You will see the few holes in the stun lock as the GF manages to get a lunging strike off before being locked again.
The gear level of the two involved are identical (the CW is actually using High Vizer and no Tenacity Gear whereas the GF is).
This is not difficult to do as a CW so you can go test it yourself if you think the video is somehow "staged", however anyone who PvP's will be able to see it is a legit fight. The skill level of those involved is irrelevant as the GF is clearly locked, through guard, for the duration of the fight.
I will PM one of the videos to everyone who has shown interest or doubt here. I would love to post it here but if I do so without permission I will be banned. Please stand by I am seeking approval from Akromatic.
Any PvE implications I cannot speak to as I do not do PvE and know very little about CW's anyway. This may be irrelevant for PvE players, but it is a very big problem for PvP players.
Exactly. It is already difficult to keep pace with certain GWFs in regards of damage. CWs are working fine. No need to change anything. Buff HR split shot again (and tone down the aggro part from it) and perhaps give TR some better 'control'.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
so both GWF and CW needed to be toned down, heavy.
I'm sorry but it's the truth.
No, you are wrong. There is basically no need to face 1 small mob group one by one unless you play with total noobs. If you play with people who know what they are doing then why should they pull always 1 small mob group, you have no idea how tedious all dungeons will become if you force this playstile. Please think for a moment about the current situation. The dungeons are already very long and monotonic. You want to make them even more tedious?? I say buff HR and perhaps TR but dont touch GWFs and CWs so that all classes are usefull in a group. (And by the way: CWs are also strong in PvP, if you know what you are doing). Nerf CWs and you see 4CWs and 1DC partys only, since the lack in control has to be compensated.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
this is the only game Ive heard that endgame dungeons take so little time to be finished.
You sound like you have never played a T2.
And do you know how people group all the adds and nuke them in ten minutes? perfect vorpals and 15k-18k GS in a 8.3k GS dungeon. Thats how.
I love bringing GF's, TR's and HR's that know what they are doing. They all contribute to the speed of the run.
Yes, because it will take only low time if you play with well-geared characters. As the dungeons were created, t2 were the best set and usually people with 12k-13k did CN. We didnt had artifacts and boons. The dungeons are not on par with the current gear, thats all. Nowadays you make CN runs with 14k-19k people. Expect that they rush through the content.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
You do realize nothing right now can break freezing in preview, right? Not even unstoppable. If you go cc immune you can prevent more stacks, but you CANNOT break out of freezing, you have to wait for it to end by itself. So, if someone looks like they aren't interested when they go cc immune, they can't help it.
Well, I mean, it's a GF...you can do this now and prob faster:)
But also for clarity, could you also make sure that the cw wasnt using companions....and running with 9-10K Power and Cockatrice in open world?
Yeah I know that but it doesn't change the fact that the build in pve isn't really an option , 1v1 in pvp it might be really good but in a dungeon full of adds shooting Ray of frost into a group of mobs isn't really going to cut it so my original point stands , in pvp the oppressor build might be op but for pve the class has been nerfed into near pointlessness , especially Spellstorm renegade , no doubt that something had to be done to reduce damage in pve so other classes could have a look in but to say these nerfs leave CW OP is really just nonsense and that was what my post was intended to address , the guy who plays a GF who decided to come troll the CW feedback thread by claiming it is now OP and not to worry..
Now I am not infallable and pulled many things you may not agree with me grabbing. If you do then you can of course send me a PM about any specfic post and I will look into it but ideally we ask that you post your feedback in a direct format so it is easier for the deverlopers to read and understand your concerns in this specific situation.
If you want to discuss speculation or disagree with other posts rather than directing your feedback and experiences to the developers than please do so here. Thanks!
Off Topic Note: It seems this oddly enough has to be explained. Dungeons were never intended to be done by dragging as much as you can around and burn them all at once. The fact that could be done without a GF was the icing on top. Sadly many posts I grabbed were arguing based on the desire to continue that and that absolutely was not something that was ever intended to be done to begin with.
This is as I suspected why CW was being gutted.
Devs if this is true, can you please make artifacts account bound? Not to mention a years worth of companions.
Also, I thought we were given freedoms within dungeons to complete them however we wanted as long as we stay within the physical boundaries of the map and don't do any exploits etc.
GWF are getting a big hit to Unstoppable to where if you don't spec for Sentinel, its like Unstoppable adds nothing to your defense.
Pretty obvious you have not tested it out.
Infact from reading the comments id say 80-90% of CWs have no idea what they are talking about.
Preview damage cannot be tested, despite what people say. because important feats are not working, so we do not know how big a drop in dps this is. Not to mention this is very early on. So all this raging and wailing is all speculation. It feels like most CWs want to and like to outshine everyone.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
You may do the dungeons however you can but you are intended to want to bring various classes. Each class is intended to bring both strengths and weaknesses to the composition and a variety is intended to be desired although not necessarily mandated. So just because you may doesn't mean you are intended to do so.
However as anybody can tell you at this point in time Control Wizard and/or GWF stacking reigns supreme replacing not only the GF but in some cases the DC as well. That is not intended.
If you can do it you may but understand that the goal will always be to make all classes desirable in dungeons.
Would you like us to run the dungeon in single file? Would you like me to not use any heals and force players to buy health stones from the Zen Shop because I can overheal my allies?
I get it, the NPC's have emotions too and are unhappy they aren't able to handle the death and destruction my guild party dishes out because we've clearly studied, adapted and can run CN quite efficiently (rainbow party or not) with synergistic weapon enchants & encounters?
Really? They weren't suppose to be done by dragging as much as you can around? Then maybe more doors should be in place, not nerfs? Why wasn't there any previous transparency regarding this, somehow, all of a sudden, unintended method of running dungeons? It's more of a high-risk, high-reward style. I wouldn't be surprised if this is done by many experienced dungeon runners. I mean, after the 100th time, and being geared to the hilt, it isn't difficult to pull off.
Cleric: Marquis Elmdore - Current Main
Wizard: Iamblichus
Fighter: Anna the Titan
Barbarian: Anann Valkyrja
Ranger: Minerva Cory'phaia
Warlock: Suri Coralyne Reid
Guild: She Looked Level 18.
Alliance: Imperium
The CW is rocken high Vizer (hasn't played his CW for months) and he has a lot of empty enchant slots on his gear.
The GF is speced Pre Mod3 Conq and is pretty well geared with full tenacity gear (none of the Mod3 Stuff though)
The GF did everything he could to defend himself, if there was sound in the video you would be able to hear him spamming Lunging the entire time (and also cursing quite a bit :P), you can see LS fire immediately when there is a small gap in the stunlock but the CW is able to get him frozen again before the encounter even hits (you can see the cooldown did not trigger).
You can also see examples of stuns going through shield (entangling does NOT go through shield, we tested), this is more a GF issue so I'll leave that where it belongs.
In the first video the CW let the GF open with a prone and then fought back to his fullest. The GF did all he could. There is simply nothing any class can do in this situation. I Believe it needs to be addressed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS4lipbPxvw
A second video demonstrating the same thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cWBN_qoQB4
In this one you can see entangling force take effect after the CW has been proned, and then the stunlock is applied and maintained. The GF almost got away a few times, but that was mainly due to them both laughing their butts off on TS :P
Lets keep it positive and leave "skill" and gear arguments out of this. The purpose of the video is to demonstrate a mechanic that needs to be looked at, and I believe it does that well enough.
Thanks.
They likely didn't expect CW's to be able to effortlessly keep extreme volumes of adds under control without needing a GF or other classes to keep them alive.
You can kick and scream all you like but none of the "I want to CC and burn everything" addresses the real problem: CW's controlled enough that they didn't need the GF. Why would they need a GF to keep the adds off them if the adds were perpetually controlled?
Which is the end all, be all. CW's got to a point that the only thing they needed was either a DC to heal of a GWF to do the initial tanking. That was never intended and had to be addressed. And while you may not like it there is absolutely no way that leaving CW's at their current power level will do that.
I frequently run with rainbow parties, and I prefer it. And pulling massive mob trains? Its easier and more effective to kill groups one at a time, the massive mob pulls are more about fun. AOE damage is still ver important(as well as AOE CC). And a GF enables groups to do even more massive mob pulls. Lots of GF's are just bad, but I know an amazing one that always benefits the party and carries his weight. I also know a great TR that I always love to bring. My groups never exceed 2 CW's and often take 2 TR's. Whoever is online in the guild really.
The GWF and CW changes will be most noticed by the lower geared players. The learning curve for them will be a lot steeper. I'm still going to stick by my CW if these current changes go live, but I don't know what the class would be if they did. Oppressor looks cooler than it was before. The loss of debuffs will hurt the entire group. I dont mind the singularity cap. The changes are a loss of DPS, control, and debuffs. So what is the intended purpose of the wizard? I guess I'll post back here when I have done a rainbow CN on the preview.
But what about PVE? I think its quite a shame that changes are made that adversely affect pvers as a result of pvp.
After watching the video and reading your text....I do not get what you are trying to say. Using Repel with Ray of Frost, then using entangling force was how I trivialized many of the solo content bosses. It locks down one person. My belief is that PvP is a team event, not a 1 v 1. It takes a while to take someone down with that method. Leaving plenty of time for their friends to clean your clock. I fail to see an issue with this.
If there is an issue with this, you need to be a little more clear cause I do not see it.