Actually it makes no sense, the Control Wizard in D&D which is what this game is supposed to be controls the battlefield by using large damaging AoE spells thus forcing the enemies to split up to avoid damage and rendering them in-effective. The control wizard is and was never about freezing people in place or knocking them down or any of that HAMSTER it was always about area of effect damage terrain manipulation. This idea that control wizard means to incapacitate and not damage comes from the lack of knowledge about the D&D setting. Also the only reason you meter watchers are seeing CW's topping the damage charts is because they are doing AoE damage.
Where are they when it comes to single target damage? Right where they are supposed to be, lower than everyone else. They are not the best damager in the game they just happen to have more AoE so hitting 15 mobs for 1k each ends up doing more damage than hitting one mob for 5k but the effect is the CW did less damage on the boss but effects the entire battle to clean up his friends. That is the essence of the CW, parse their damage on single targets compared to similar gear and skill TR or GWF or even good HR and you will see its not so OP to need this massive reduction in effectiveness.
Pretty much,
The CW is a Controller, which means... AoE damage.
Its got some great Single Target Chill/Hold spells... but its group strength is in AoE damage thats HOW it does damage and controls a battlefield. Conversely it has lower single target damage.
Striker... means Single Target Damage
Controller... means AoE damage.
I strongly disagree with your "fixing" pattern.
Instead of asking us what change we dont agree on , u should have asked us what change we actually do support.
Because this question is much easier and faster to answer.
95% of the changes, u introduced, served no real purpose and just granted you negative feedback.
You wasted a lot of time on modifications , no one asked for cripling 2 main branches to make the third one viable.
And after 1 week, when enough people have cried that frost ray is overpowered, u will be under pressure to nerf suppressor back to its original state.
Do you realize that all the trouble and related costs u are facing derived from your own hands? Instead of massively reworking cw code and wondering why people aren't happy, u should have asked us what we would like to see. The actual "investment" on your side would have greatly decreased and the created value for your customers would have risen.
We have talked about cost-and-time-efficiency issues now lets switch to another basic: customer psychology.
We (me and many others) highly dislike the experience of "loss". In fact due to our egoism we tend to put "loss" on a level with "misfortune". While "loss" in the context of a game appears unsignificant the very reason we play games is to not experience such kind of emotion even on basis of trivial issues.
If u take something away from the customer, give him the impression that he is being compensated in a proper way.
And "proper way" is not determined by ur point of view but by the customers subconsciousness where equalization loss=misfortune takes place. This is the most objective criticism you will get.
Now regarding the fixes:
-Mike suggested: reduce shard damage for every hit target -->>> perfect remedy=issue solved
-regarding eye of the storm: I am sure there are better options to fix a passive, but introducing cooldowns for passive feats is not the solution-->>> ask the playerbase for advice
-instead of introducing one broken feat for suppressor try to improve the lot of crappy feats of this branch to make it attractive as a whole, especially from a controllers perspective
-as regards the other changes, especially single target and feats, ->>> delete them.
Wishful thinking on my side for the future (on the premise Neverwinter has one):
-grant us some kind of survivability mechanism, something unique to our class, the same way stealth is unique to tr/hr , unstoppable is unique to gwf and blocking is unique to protector guy. The shield sucks.
95% of the changes, u introduced, served no real purpose and just granted you negative feedback.
I strongly disagree. The changes they are making will make for a better game. And not just for CWs, but also the other classes too. The CW class needs a more defined role other than "I blow up screen". It should retain the ability to spread damage, just not on the current scale we are seeing today. The current meta of "stack CWs and GWFs for the win" is just bad and needs to stop. All people care about is big DPS which has led to a boring and disposable end game. Almost everyone is walking around with the same build and load out.
The CW as it is should have never made it out the door. But it did and people have become accustomed to it. People hate change and it scares them. I get it. But there is no future for this game without it.
I strongly disagree. The changes they are making will make for a better game. And not just for CWs, but also the other classes too. The CW class needs a more defined role other than "I blow up screen". It should retain the ability to spread damage, just not on the current scale we are seeing today. The current meta of "stack CWs and GWFs for the win" is just bad and needs to stop. All people care about is big DPS which has led to a boring and disposable end game. Almost everyone is walking around with the same build and load out.
The CW as it is should have never made it out the door. But it did and people have become accustomed to it. People hate change and it scares them. I get it. But there is no future for this game without it.
And that is my 2 cents.
How did nerfing casting times of pure PvP powers (Ray of Enfeeblement, Entangling Force, Chill Strike, etc.) help balance it out? If you run PvE with these powers, you will never outdps a DC.
How did destroying the Reneade tree help them? I am a Renegade (PvP build). As a Renegade, all decent HRs and GWFs outdps me easily (with much lower gear), while Thaumaturge CWs deal more than 3 times my damage. And I really know what I'm doing. I've run CN at least 800 - 1000 times, and I know how to maximize my damage, with builds AND skill. But the Renegade tree does not allow you to do that. It's only good for PvP; and to be honest, nothing is good for PvP as a CW, but that was the last option. Instead, they destroy Renegade, they destroy Thaum, and force all CWs to be perma-freezers as Oppressors.
But why am I even posting here...? They are changing the activation times, which means that all your personal physical skills are negated and you are presented a whole new class that you have to learn to play from scratch, because you don't "feel" it anymore. After "out-non-quitting" hundreds of guildies, playing every single day since the first day of beta, trying to be perfect with a class that has always been the weakest in PvP, this is the last straw for me. I've been on preview for 30 minutes. Enough testing for me. I can work on builds, adapt to changes (regarding damage and effect), but I will not learn to play the character from scratch, just because the devs think it's a good idea to mess with casting/activation times.
aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited June 2014
The changes they are making will make for a better game. And not just for CWs, but also the other classes too.
I play a Renegade CW, GWF, DC, and TR. Please explain how these changes are making this a better game for any of them. (besides making CWs even easier to kill in PvP)
The CW class needs a more defined role other than "I blow up screen".
A) What's the matter with that role? What do you think that role should be?
The current meta of "stack CWs and GWFs for the win" is just bad and needs to stop.
I play a Renegade CW, GWF, DC, and TR. Please explain how these changes are making this a better game for any of them. (besides making CWs even easier to kill in PvP)
A) What's the matter with that role? What do you think that role should be?
Now they'll just stack more GWFs
GWF cant' nuke entire rooms anymore without dying and people running dungeons are seeing that GWF do less damage than CW on preview.
GWF cant' nuke entire rooms anymore without dying and people running dungeons are seeing that GWF do less damage than CW on preview.
Ok, and it's fine. And they probably deal more damage, because they buffed Steal Time. But explain to me how destroying ALL PvP builds that have NOTHING to do with PvE, that are absolutely terrible in PvE, and nerfing all the SINGLE TARGET spells, that have NOTHING to do with PvE, helped us/them?
Ok, and it's fine. And they probably deal more damage, because they buffed Steal Time. But explain to me how destroying ALL PvP builds that have NOTHING to do with PvE, that are absolutely terrible in PvE, and nerfing all the SINGLE TARGET spells, that have NOTHING to do with PvE, helped us/them?
This is why I think they need to go the same route as Guild wars 1 and Dragons nest ( apparently , I have never played Dragon nest myself but have been told it uses the 2 effects system ) and make skills have different effects for pve and pvp , not just for spells but for feats and boons too , trying to balance the game the way they are now is nigh on impossible because pvp alterations will always step on pve's toes and vise versa , I feel sorry for Gentlemancrush , his job must be a nightmare and it will only get more and more difficult the more classes they add.
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fgmfanhaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
There should never be one must powerfull Feat tree! they should be balanced! and this might bring a big unbalance!
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
There should never be one must powerfull Feat tree! they should be balanced! and this might bring a big unbalance!
Well that's what Cryptic just did with all this short sighted thinking... and its not even going to solve the very problem they were attempting to solve.
They are shoving all CWs into an unwanted, unwelcome path.
I start to tell u i played many mmo and succedd to be one of the best in every game starting from metin2,cabal,aion,dragon nest.
In metin2 the mage (sura) have good skill dmg and good shield (our shield on neverwinter is so crappy. maybe add like 20-25% reflect on it becouse we are always the 1st chaced during pvp plus ther's always some TR in hide hitting us from behind, this will help mage to survive)
On aion mage have long time cc plus high dmg skillz, he can win also 3v1 depending on his gameplay/gear, here is at least impossible win a 2v1, except if that 2 ppl are really low gear/gameplay.
You going nerf the aoe skills, that can be accepted, yes becouse is the best dps dmger and party are full of gwf/cw only.
But as much regards the pvp, mage have the lowest survivability and is not fun reach high gs and die with a rotation of skill wich u can't avoid.
CW Against GWF, for now they roar and block u, u can't blink and u will die 80% of chance, they do like 10-15k with 1 skill while our hp max is around 23-24k. if we going to control the gwf we dont deal them so much dmg, like they do.
CW Against TR they are mostly of time on perma, they remove half of your life only with knife...
CW Against HR mostly of them have regen jewels+gear, like 400 regen on ring, while other class dont have it. they regen so good and u cant kill them. also having this regen gear they ugually do so good dmg.
CW Against GF with their skill critting they dmg us for 6-7k, they do with success 2-3 skill if we are not so fast to move away from them we are died.
CW Against Cleric, yea 2 time was impossible for me to kill a cleric becouse he was healing so fast and good... that was 1v1 so i had to go becouse was wasting of time...
in evry game i never see the mage be so useless in pvp and u going to nerf it.
i just checked on the leaderboard, and the CW is the class less displayed, this becouse the deaths are so high compared to the kills like other classes. mostsly showed are gwf/tr/hr.
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fgmfanhaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I start to tell u i played many mmo and succedd to be one of the best in every game starting from metin2,cabal,aion,dragon nest.
In metin2 the mage (sura) have good skill dmg and good shield (our shield on neverwinter is so crappy. maybe add like 20-25% reflect on it becouse we are always the 1st chaced during pvp plus ther's always some TR in hide hitting us from behind, this will help mage to survive)
On aion mage have long time cc plus high dmg skillz, he can win also 3v1 depending on his gameplay/gear, here is at least impossible win a 2v1, except if that 2 ppl are really low gear/gameplay.
You going nerf the aoe skills, that can be accepted, yes becouse is the best dps dmger and party are full of gwf/cw only.
But as much regards the pvp, mage have the lowest survivability and is not fun reach high gs and die with a rotation of skill wich u can't avoid.
CW Against GWF, for now they roar and block u, u can't blink and u will die 80% of chance, they do like 10-15k with 1 skill while our hp max is around 23-24k. if we going to control the gwf we dont deal them so much dmg, like they do.
CW Against TR they are mostly of time on perma, they remove half of your life only with knife...
CW Against HR mostly of them have regen jewels+gear, like 400 regen on ring, while other class dont have it. they regen so good and u cant kill them. also having this regen gear they ugually do so good dmg.
CW Against GF with their skill critting they dmg us for 6-7k, they do with success 2-3 skill if we are not so fast to move away from them we are died.
CW Against Cleric, yea 2 time was impossible for me to kill a cleric becouse he was healing so fast and good... that was 1v1 so i had to go becouse was wasting of time...
in evry game i never see the mage be so useless in pvp and u going to nerf it.
i just checked on the leaderboard, and the CW is the class less displayed, this becouse the deaths are so high compared to the kills like other classes. mostsly showed are gwf/tr/hr.
the biggest diference between neverwinter and other mmo's is that neverwinter is based on D&D so it should respect D&D rules and classes.. for example, combat advantage is a mechanic brought from D&D and CW's in D&D are pure AoE Damage makers and what Cryptic is doing is getting away from the concept of D&D.. im not the first nor ill be the last saying this!
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tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
I don't really see the reason for the nerfs to casting times or the vast majority of single target powers.
While I can agree that the changes to AoE are validated in order to tone down the door to door nuking in PvE the changes to CW single target and cast times seem to be purely designed to ruin what is already a very difficult class to play in PvP. Skills and muscle memory that players developed for long periods of time now have to be totally relearned and the ability to play various equally viable builds instead of repeatedly being pigeon-holed into only one type of build(see IV GWF, Semi-perma TR, pathfinder HR).
Would a developer mind giving me some advice as to how to convince my guild to stick around? Our gf is convinced his class will be less survivable, our gwfs are unhappy with this, and our trs feel further marginalized. And like many of the above comments, our cws are less then happy with such heavy nerfs. If it where just me id probably take a break until mod 4 and see how it is then, but my guild is falling apart now and I fear there may not be much left of them come release.
Would a developer mind giving me some advice as to how to convince my guild to stick around? Our gf is convinced his class will be less survivable, our gwfs are unhappy with this, and our trs feel further marginalized. And like many of the above comments, our cws are less then happy with such heavy nerfs. If it where just me id probably take a break until mod 4 and see how it is then, but my guild is falling apart now and I fear there may not be much left of them come release.
Gentlemancrush has already started tweaking some of the changes in a more favorable way and there are still 6 or 7 patches between now and module 4 launch so if your guild members are unhappy tell them to log onto the test server and test out the changes and then give feedback in the appropriate threads , complaining and threatening to leave the game will not accomplish anything , testing the changes and suggesting improvements probably could .
next how about you guys finally fix shard passing through entities without damaging them? Its whenever the ground gets updated with something the game classifys as an entity, such as a thorn ward, astral shield and hallowed ground. im not sure exactly what causes shard to randomly pass through players without these named effects on. but there is something extra that causes it
I dont even play a controll wizard, im a gf, one of the worst classes in the game yet i can beat 99% of CW 1v1 so i dont understand why CW are getting longer recharge times, area powers decreased sure but they needed no recharge time nerfs at all.
That was blunt, and in appreciation of your bluntness: It's not an "omission", it's an "admission". Further, your assertion of "was rendered useless" is an unsubstantiated claim.
The Thaum tree is still the Thaum tree. This is not a new tree, where a lot of respec combination testing would be the start of the conversation.
What we have here is a reworking of existing feats, and it's entirely appropriate to test how an existing build fares when it's feats are reworked. It's the closest you can possibly get to an "apples for apples" test between Module 3 and Module 4. My "admittedly" was there to acknowledge that it's possible to hope for some kind of improvement through tweaking, but, really, this has been too deeply nerfed. It's very clear in the reading of the documented DEV changes, and I confirmed that what I saw in testing what I expected.
All the comments on the disappearance of party debuffs and other issues on the "slottability" of the top tier powers (which you never got to as you stopped reading) are self evident.
Even if there are currently bugs in the implementation, based on the intended design as documented by the DEVs, the eventual outcome will be much the same.
Yah - apologies for the bluntness. I'd been wading through pages of QQ from people who hadn't even tested any of the changes to any of the classes and my patience had run out. My bad.
My main point was that your assumption appeared to be that no build adjustments would be necessary to accommodate the new feats. Your 'apples v apples' analogy only holds if you assume that the 'new' CW is supposed to work in exactly the same way as the 'old' CW but just with different feats. This is clearly not the case. The changes are major and will require a complete rework of a build to get optimum results. Add in the fact that a few feats simply aren't working right yet and it's impossible to say how viable or not the 'new' CW builds will be.
In fact matching MoF to Oppressor for me resulted in better performance than using the old Thaum feats. That's partly the result of the new Oppy feats and partly synergy of those new feats with other features of my build. So it may well be that once all the feats are working and people have had time to test a few builds there will be other unexpected bonuses to be found. Not to mention further tweaking incoming.
Just continue to put down all classes and strengthen all dungeons... Soon noone will play anymore !!!! Already noone is doing Castel Never, and pretty noone does Valindra Tower or Malabog Castle....
Wizards are quite defenseless... And thanks to you, now we won't even be able to control mobs... Thus, we will just die... and die... and die...
More it goes, and less I enjoy to play Neverwinter, sorry to say...
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
Yah - apologies for the bluntness. I'd been wading through pages of QQ from people who hadn't even tested any of the changes to any of the classes and my patience had run out. My bad.
...
In fact matching MoF to Oppressor for me resulted in better performance than using the old Thaum feats. That's partly the result of the new Oppy feats and partly synergy of those new feats with other features of my build. So it may well be that once all the feats are working and people have had time to test a few builds there will be other unexpected bonuses to be found. Not to mention further tweaking incoming.
Hey, no problem
I hear you, and already picked up on "being herded into playing a MoF Oppressor". Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on my analysis been scoped purely to the viability of the SpellStorm Thau tree?
I also went on to do a feat respec to Oppressor (still SpellStorm). I'm very, very happy with results so far. I'm no longer the DPS monster I was, but I'm not struggling to survive the dailies like I did as a nerfed Thau - and the Oppressor Ice Control is Very Nice.
I grabbed a GWF friend and we ran non-epic Frozen Heart. I wasn't embarrassed for damage, but the most important part was that the control contribution is very obvious. The GWF was striking down slowed (if not frozen) enemies, and would have been better served with a giant ice pick than his Greatsword
If the Oppressor Mof is even better than the Oppressor SpellStorm, that's great. The Ice Control has great flavour, and delivering viable build variations is a DEV success.
That's all I ask for: a viable CW with a clear and welcome party contribution in PvE, and hopefully something better for the woeful PvP situation.
It's very early days, but we're hopefully going to land with an outcome where every class is welcome to the PvE party (though I dont think you'll find CW Thaus), and nobody is as hopelessly outclassed as the CW hunted by GWFs in PvP.
Only full runs across all dungeons types and bosses will confirm that the CW is a contributor, and with minimal nerfing of single target powers (read final boss for VT & MC runs), things are looking okay.
From what I see in CW vs GWF videos, the Oppressor may even be PvP viable - and if the DEVs have managed to fix the OP PvE CW as well as the UP PvP CW - then full congratulations on solving a very difficult problem!
Get ready for the Ice Age....
Winter's coming!
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
I really would like to have the other trees thaumaturge and renegade useful as well. Fine, let us have a working CC/PvP tree with opressor, but give us also a DPS option which can compete with all other classes (and which is based on AOE DPS). It is not enough to have only one 'working' tree now.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
I was using Shard on Tab, and it was fun (and efficient). But since I play Renegade I decided combo RoE on Tab and normal Shard is better for that build.
You have accused gamers who didn't go your way of having no skill, which was ignorant to say the least. And I don't want to go Oppressor. I want Renegade to stay viable and I would like the Devs to see this exchange of views and take it under the consideration: nerfing Renegade will make Oppressor only viable build for both PvE and PvP.
Since early Open Beta I'm struggling to find way for my CW to make both: PvE and PvP fun to play (with stress on PvE which I enjoy the most). Since Devs insist on not separating PvE and PvP builds per toon, I find Renegade satisfactory in both as it is now (I don't mind damage reduction in PvE though, to make other classes have their role). I just don't get this PvP skills changes. This will not help gamers who both PvE and PvP.
Bids he then the spruces to singer him an anthems!
And the Woodsie Lord binders them fleshes to stone!
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aviracaineMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 22Arc User
We had several options for adjusting these, but instead of just making all of your powers deal less or more damage we wanted to try and preserve more of the damage potential of individual hits (because numbers feel really good) and slow down the rate at which those hits can be applied.
Not at the expense of maneuverability, flow and seamless feel of a class. Sorry gentlemancrush, but we don't seem to share the same opinion on this issue.
I am still here after a year because I really enjoy the awesome as **** combat in this game, with changes like this you'll destroy it.
Oh and about big numbers, I am already used to seeing 6 figures on my shard slam. I don't think I'll ever see that again after m4 rolls out, so I've already stopped caring about big numbers at this point.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited June 2014
I'm not jumping on the oppressor bandwagon because it's the only viable option. I just wanted to play as a CW that melts with fire and arcane. I already got another CW who's ice themed and don't care for it.
It would be nice, if the devs introduce an item, that will change characterbound items to acc.bound.
Cryptic would make money with that and we player will have a chance to transfer our Artifacts and Companions to the warlock. (If it will be the new pve dps class)
I have chosen Thauma CW, because it is a dps machine (PVE), but with those changes,
the Thauma CW will die, thats for sure.
Everyone and it doesn t matter if they want pve or pvp build, will stick with the opressor tree.
Wow all CWs are the same, no Thauma or Renegade builds, it will be boring i think.
It would be really helpful, if this item will released, it would be a win win situation.
Many people will loose motivation if we can t transfer the items for that we farmed and invested so much time.
If i imagine to do that again, it s like a nightmare.
For me, its a desaster to nerf a char like that, because all made that char because of its pve capabilities.
It s not funny to freeze enemies permanently and the others can just kill them without any difficulties at all.
If i think about it, will it help the TR to join partys?
I dont think so, because 2-3 CWs will perma freeze all and the GWFs or maybe HR (because the HRs dps is 30% higher with mod 4) will kill them. How do you wanna solve the TR pve problem?
So imo the renegade and the Thauma Trees are not needed, you can delete them and i think it is not the intention of the devs that those 2 trees are worthless.
Instead of nerfing the CW like that you could push the TR/GF to make them an option for pve.
The new changes will not make that difference people are hoping for.
I understand, that the CW needed a nerf because of the arm.pen. fix, but that is too much.
If the best pve dps class does 66% less dps in pve and get nothing instead (thauma tree), it s not easy to swallow.
i tried new thing and its pure horror, now cw dont have damage and control! than change name from control wizard to "uncontrol and damageless wizard" or simply remove cw from game because this is a shame, its ok to nerf damage but give us control. i think that whatever we wrote here wont make change in saving the death of cw class but at least i tried
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soletiusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited June 2014
thank you... been practice with my MoF cw sincer mod3... and now i know i will do awesome damage. ^^
Comments
Pretty much,
The CW is a Controller, which means... AoE damage.
Its got some great Single Target Chill/Hold spells... but its group strength is in AoE damage thats HOW it does damage and controls a battlefield. Conversely it has lower single target damage.
Striker... means Single Target Damage
Controller... means AoE damage.
Thats what those two things really mean.
I strongly disagree with your "fixing" pattern.
Instead of asking us what change we dont agree on , u should have asked us what change we actually do support.
Because this question is much easier and faster to answer.
95% of the changes, u introduced, served no real purpose and just granted you negative feedback.
You wasted a lot of time on modifications , no one asked for cripling 2 main branches to make the third one viable.
And after 1 week, when enough people have cried that frost ray is overpowered, u will be under pressure to nerf suppressor back to its original state.
Do you realize that all the trouble and related costs u are facing derived from your own hands? Instead of massively reworking cw code and wondering why people aren't happy, u should have asked us what we would like to see. The actual "investment" on your side would have greatly decreased and the created value for your customers would have risen.
We have talked about cost-and-time-efficiency issues now lets switch to another basic: customer psychology.
We (me and many others) highly dislike the experience of "loss". In fact due to our egoism we tend to put "loss" on a level with "misfortune". While "loss" in the context of a game appears unsignificant the very reason we play games is to not experience such kind of emotion even on basis of trivial issues.
If u take something away from the customer, give him the impression that he is being compensated in a proper way.
And "proper way" is not determined by ur point of view but by the customers subconsciousness where equalization loss=misfortune takes place. This is the most objective criticism you will get.
Now regarding the fixes:
-Mike suggested: reduce shard damage for every hit target -->>> perfect remedy=issue solved
-regarding eye of the storm: I am sure there are better options to fix a passive, but introducing cooldowns for passive feats is not the solution-->>> ask the playerbase for advice
-instead of introducing one broken feat for suppressor try to improve the lot of crappy feats of this branch to make it attractive as a whole, especially from a controllers perspective
-as regards the other changes, especially single target and feats, ->>> delete them.
Wishful thinking on my side for the future (on the premise Neverwinter has one):
-grant us some kind of survivability mechanism, something unique to our class, the same way stealth is unique to tr/hr , unstoppable is unique to gwf and blocking is unique to protector guy. The shield sucks.
My 2 cents
I strongly disagree. The changes they are making will make for a better game. And not just for CWs, but also the other classes too. The CW class needs a more defined role other than "I blow up screen". It should retain the ability to spread damage, just not on the current scale we are seeing today. The current meta of "stack CWs and GWFs for the win" is just bad and needs to stop. All people care about is big DPS which has led to a boring and disposable end game. Almost everyone is walking around with the same build and load out.
The CW as it is should have never made it out the door. But it did and people have become accustomed to it. People hate change and it scares them. I get it. But there is no future for this game without it.
And that is my 2 cents.
How did nerfing casting times of pure PvP powers (Ray of Enfeeblement, Entangling Force, Chill Strike, etc.) help balance it out? If you run PvE with these powers, you will never outdps a DC.
How did destroying the Reneade tree help them? I am a Renegade (PvP build). As a Renegade, all decent HRs and GWFs outdps me easily (with much lower gear), while Thaumaturge CWs deal more than 3 times my damage. And I really know what I'm doing. I've run CN at least 800 - 1000 times, and I know how to maximize my damage, with builds AND skill. But the Renegade tree does not allow you to do that. It's only good for PvP; and to be honest, nothing is good for PvP as a CW, but that was the last option. Instead, they destroy Renegade, they destroy Thaum, and force all CWs to be perma-freezers as Oppressors.
But why am I even posting here...? They are changing the activation times, which means that all your personal physical skills are negated and you are presented a whole new class that you have to learn to play from scratch, because you don't "feel" it anymore. After "out-non-quitting" hundreds of guildies, playing every single day since the first day of beta, trying to be perfect with a class that has always been the weakest in PvP, this is the last straw for me. I've been on preview for 30 minutes. Enough testing for me. I can work on builds, adapt to changes (regarding damage and effect), but I will not learn to play the character from scratch, just because the devs think it's a good idea to mess with casting/activation times.
I play a Renegade CW, GWF, DC, and TR. Please explain how these changes are making this a better game for any of them. (besides making CWs even easier to kill in PvP)
A) What's the matter with that role?
Now they'll just stack more GWFs
GWF cant' nuke entire rooms anymore without dying and people running dungeons are seeing that GWF do less damage than CW on preview.
Ok, and it's fine. And they probably deal more damage, because they buffed Steal Time. But explain to me how destroying ALL PvP builds that have NOTHING to do with PvE, that are absolutely terrible in PvE, and nerfing all the SINGLE TARGET spells, that have NOTHING to do with PvE, helped us/them?
This is why I think they need to go the same route as Guild wars 1 and Dragons nest ( apparently , I have never played Dragon nest myself but have been told it uses the 2 effects system ) and make skills have different effects for pve and pvp , not just for spells but for feats and boons too , trying to balance the game the way they are now is nigh on impossible because pvp alterations will always step on pve's toes and vise versa , I feel sorry for Gentlemancrush , his job must be a nightmare and it will only get more and more difficult the more classes they add.
Well that's what Cryptic just did with all this short sighted thinking... and its not even going to solve the very problem they were attempting to solve.
They are shoving all CWs into an unwanted, unwelcome path.
I start to tell u i played many mmo and succedd to be one of the best in every game starting from metin2,cabal,aion,dragon nest.
In metin2 the mage (sura) have good skill dmg and good shield (our shield on neverwinter is so crappy. maybe add like 20-25% reflect on it becouse we are always the 1st chaced during pvp plus ther's always some TR in hide hitting us from behind, this will help mage to survive)
On aion mage have long time cc plus high dmg skillz, he can win also 3v1 depending on his gameplay/gear, here is at least impossible win a 2v1, except if that 2 ppl are really low gear/gameplay.
You going nerf the aoe skills, that can be accepted, yes becouse is the best dps dmger and party are full of gwf/cw only.
But as much regards the pvp, mage have the lowest survivability and is not fun reach high gs and die with a rotation of skill wich u can't avoid.
CW Against GWF, for now they roar and block u, u can't blink and u will die 80% of chance, they do like 10-15k with 1 skill while our hp max is around 23-24k. if we going to control the gwf we dont deal them so much dmg, like they do.
CW Against TR they are mostly of time on perma, they remove half of your life only with knife...
CW Against HR mostly of them have regen jewels+gear, like 400 regen on ring, while other class dont have it. they regen so good and u cant kill them. also having this regen gear they ugually do so good dmg.
CW Against GF with their skill critting they dmg us for 6-7k, they do with success 2-3 skill if we are not so fast to move away from them we are died.
CW Against Cleric, yea 2 time was impossible for me to kill a cleric becouse he was healing so fast and good... that was 1v1 so i had to go becouse was wasting of time...
in evry game i never see the mage be so useless in pvp and u going to nerf it.
i just checked on the leaderboard, and the CW is the class less displayed, this becouse the deaths are so high compared to the kills like other classes. mostsly showed are gwf/tr/hr.
the biggest diference between neverwinter and other mmo's is that neverwinter is based on D&D so it should respect D&D rules and classes.. for example, combat advantage is a mechanic brought from D&D and CW's in D&D are pure AoE Damage makers and what Cryptic is doing is getting away from the concept of D&D.. im not the first nor ill be the last saying this!
While I can agree that the changes to AoE are validated in order to tone down the door to door nuking in PvE the changes to CW single target and cast times seem to be purely designed to ruin what is already a very difficult class to play in PvP. Skills and muscle memory that players developed for long periods of time now have to be totally relearned and the ability to play various equally viable builds instead of repeatedly being pigeon-holed into only one type of build(see IV GWF, Semi-perma TR, pathfinder HR).
Gentlemancrush has already started tweaking some of the changes in a more favorable way and there are still 6 or 7 patches between now and module 4 launch so if your guild members are unhappy tell them to log onto the test server and test out the changes and then give feedback in the appropriate threads , complaining and threatening to leave the game will not accomplish anything , testing the changes and suggesting improvements probably could .
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My main point was that your assumption appeared to be that no build adjustments would be necessary to accommodate the new feats. Your 'apples v apples' analogy only holds if you assume that the 'new' CW is supposed to work in exactly the same way as the 'old' CW but just with different feats. This is clearly not the case. The changes are major and will require a complete rework of a build to get optimum results. Add in the fact that a few feats simply aren't working right yet and it's impossible to say how viable or not the 'new' CW builds will be.
In fact matching MoF to Oppressor for me resulted in better performance than using the old Thaum feats. That's partly the result of the new Oppy feats and partly synergy of those new feats with other features of my build. So it may well be that once all the feats are working and people have had time to test a few builds there will be other unexpected bonuses to be found. Not to mention further tweaking incoming.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Wizards are quite defenseless... And thanks to you, now we won't even be able to control mobs... Thus, we will just die... and die... and die...
More it goes, and less I enjoy to play Neverwinter, sorry to say...
I hear you, and already picked up on "being herded into playing a MoF Oppressor". Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on my analysis been scoped purely to the viability of the SpellStorm Thau tree?
I also went on to do a feat respec to Oppressor (still SpellStorm). I'm very, very happy with results so far. I'm no longer the DPS monster I was, but I'm not struggling to survive the dailies like I did as a nerfed Thau - and the Oppressor Ice Control is Very Nice.
I grabbed a GWF friend and we ran non-epic Frozen Heart. I wasn't embarrassed for damage, but the most important part was that the control contribution is very obvious. The GWF was striking down slowed (if not frozen) enemies, and would have been better served with a giant ice pick than his Greatsword
If the Oppressor Mof is even better than the Oppressor SpellStorm, that's great. The Ice Control has great flavour, and delivering viable build variations is a DEV success.
That's all I ask for: a viable CW with a clear and welcome party contribution in PvE, and hopefully something better for the woeful PvP situation.
It's very early days, but we're hopefully going to land with an outcome where every class is welcome to the PvE party (though I dont think you'll find CW Thaus), and nobody is as hopelessly outclassed as the CW hunted by GWFs in PvP.
Only full runs across all dungeons types and bosses will confirm that the CW is a contributor, and with minimal nerfing of single target powers (read final boss for VT & MC runs), things are looking okay.
From what I see in CW vs GWF videos, the Oppressor may even be PvP viable - and if the DEVs have managed to fix the OP PvE CW as well as the UP PvP CW - then full congratulations on solving a very difficult problem!
Get ready for the Ice Age....
Winter's coming!
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
You have accused gamers who didn't go your way of having no skill, which was ignorant to say the least. And I don't want to go Oppressor. I want Renegade to stay viable and I would like the Devs to see this exchange of views and take it under the consideration: nerfing Renegade will make Oppressor only viable build for both PvE and PvP.
Since early Open Beta I'm struggling to find way for my CW to make both: PvE and PvP fun to play (with stress on PvE which I enjoy the most). Since Devs insist on not separating PvE and PvP builds per toon, I find Renegade satisfactory in both as it is now (I don't mind damage reduction in PvE though, to make other classes have their role). I just don't get this PvP skills changes. This will not help gamers who both PvE and PvP.
Not at the expense of maneuverability, flow and seamless feel of a class. Sorry gentlemancrush, but we don't seem to share the same opinion on this issue.
I am still here after a year because I really enjoy the awesome as **** combat in this game, with changes like this you'll destroy it.
Oh and about big numbers, I am already used to seeing 6 figures on my shard slam. I don't think I'll ever see that again after m4 rolls out, so I've already stopped caring about big numbers at this point.
Cryptic would make money with that and we player will have a chance to transfer our Artifacts and Companions to the warlock. (If it will be the new pve dps class)
I have chosen Thauma CW, because it is a dps machine (PVE), but with those changes,
the Thauma CW will die, thats for sure.
Everyone and it doesn t matter if they want pve or pvp build, will stick with the opressor tree.
Wow all CWs are the same, no Thauma or Renegade builds, it will be boring i think.
It would be really helpful, if this item will released, it would be a win win situation.
Many people will loose motivation if we can t transfer the items for that we farmed and invested so much time.
If i imagine to do that again, it s like a nightmare.
For me, its a desaster to nerf a char like that, because all made that char because of its pve capabilities.
It s not funny to freeze enemies permanently and the others can just kill them without any difficulties at all.
If i think about it, will it help the TR to join partys?
I dont think so, because 2-3 CWs will perma freeze all and the GWFs or maybe HR (because the HRs dps is 30% higher with mod 4) will kill them. How do you wanna solve the TR pve problem?
So imo the renegade and the Thauma Trees are not needed, you can delete them and i think it is not the intention of the devs that those 2 trees are worthless.
Instead of nerfing the CW like that you could push the TR/GF to make them an option for pve.
The new changes will not make that difference people are hoping for.
I understand, that the CW needed a nerf because of the arm.pen. fix, but that is too much.
If the best pve dps class does 66% less dps in pve and get nothing instead (thauma tree), it s not easy to swallow.