See the problem here is I have both a HR and a GWF. I can literally win with the GWF when I am too drunk to drive and it's kind of undergeared. You simply cannot see that your class is broken because you do not use a more challenging class. I'm not delusional. you are merely ignorant. pressing tab is not a skill on the GWF it is something you do constantly so you can go unstoppable the second you have enough determination. When you do the same on a HR you are dedicating to an entire set of abilities. GWF powers are basically self-targeting within their range and have several times the damage of HR abilities. There is no question of which to use when it is simply whatever has ended it's cooldown. Sincerely you may try to put thought into your play but honestly holding down left-click, tapping tab, and punching whichever encounter pops up will work. Try that on a HR and you are toast.
I couldn't agree more. At first I could swear the HR was the most OP class at times where they could heal and stuff like that. Then I rolled one and saw how hard they actually are to play. They can be extremely OP but that's only if they know what they're doing which most don't.
On the other hand every GWF is running around IV Destroyer pouncing on people with way better skill then them just because their class is totally messed up. "I'm gonna use my teleports to get away from you so I can attack you from range" No worries they have an at-will for that. "I'm gonna pop an encounter that can't be CC'd or Proned while it's still going on" No worries they have an encounter for that. "Since I'm the best at single target DPS I'm gonna take this GWF down so my team can have a shot at winning" Nerf nerf nerf No worries GWFs are 10x stronger. "I can tank him while my team tries to end him" Ha No worries GWFs are 10x better at tanking. "I'm a control wizard so I'll be able to control this GWF" No worries they have CC immunity when they pop unstoppable and they have more prones then you anyway. "I have 6 dodges no way he catch me" No worries they have an ability that can catch you mid dodge . "I'm a born healer I'll be able to survive" nerf nerf nerf Ummm actually GWFs heal better then you... Awkward, and they hit for 15k per encounter so goodnight.
Do you guys see where I'm getting at here? They have things that can counter every class.... How can scissors cut paper that has iron steel and metal inside of it? Please oh mighty famous GWFs who are SOOOO underpowered. Roll another class and show me your master plans at killing an IV Destroyer GWF .
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Roar is getting a fix and GWF will be just about balanced with equally skilled / geared TRs. These two classes are in a good spot to "set the bar" for balance. DC plays a strong support role and I think is also fairly well balanced. CW plays a good support role but could use some defensive capabilities. GF is underpowered. HR is overpowered.
Ahahahahahahahah, DC what?
GWFs farm DCs in pvp. The fact that we have poor cc and no escape mechanism, besides two dodges every several seconds, put us in a very bad spot against a GWF.
Ahahahahahahahah, DC what?
GWFs farm DCs in pvp. The fact that we have poor cc and no escape mechanism, besides two dodges every several seconds, put us in a very bad spot against a GWF.
DC aren't a 1v1 class. They definitely have a role in the Arena and are very capable of helping their team win.
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Its really a matter of perspective. I personally think that GF/DC/CW are underpowered, and GWF/TR/HR are balanced (assuming the Roar and HR healing fixes go well).
The fools are the ones who think that GWF is more powerful than a properly built HR/TR. I guess most people in this game don't realize how incredibly powerful it is to have multiple immunities on Shift. A TR/HR who knows how to dodge should have no problem dispensing of a GWF. Any TR/HR who whines about GWF being OP probably just suck at dodging and can't accept that their inadequacy is the cause of their failures and not balance.
Again proof that you do not understand even the basics of HRs. That shift does not work 1/2 the time. See the HR will 'dodge' out of a CC and then immediately take the effect afterwards. It's only a bug that has existed as long as the class has and has had multiple threads posted on it. The GWF dash? Does in fact avoid a CC if you move out of it. So in that healing fix are you hoping that they will apply HD to unstoppable as well?
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
DC aren't a 1v1 class. They definitely have a role in the Arena and are very capable of helping their team win.
Stop with that nonsense. Clerics should have a way to survive even alone. We are an easy target for GWFS train. It's not funny to die so many times against a competent team. Look at the leaderboard. Look for clerics, even the strongest ones. Almost all have the greatest number of deaths. That's not balance.
Let me get this straight... I say HR who whine about GWF being OP are actually just inadequate and use balance to cover up their lack of performance. You quote me on it, and then respond by admitting a lack of performance and then continue to whine about GWF balance? Thanks
Let me get this straight....I say HR have multiple immunities on Shift, you quote me, accuse me of not understanding class mechanics, and then respond by saying that HR can't dodge half the time but GWF sprint can? Thanks. By the way, even if your dodges did only work half the time, you would still have more than every class in the game
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Stop with that nonsense. Clerics should have a way to survive even alone. We are an easy target for GWFS train. It's not funny to die so many times against a competent team. Look at the leaderboard. Look for clerics, even the strongest ones. Almost all have the greatest number of deaths. That's not balance.
Its a tricky class to balance. Like CWs, clerics are a high priority target so they often get focused which leads to a lot of deaths. But you can't make them too hard to focus down otherwise they become immortal. I'm not saying they don't need any buffs but they're definitely not in a bad spot. Its really just determining what a cleric should and shuoldnt be capable of doing in the context of a Domination match, which is tricky to figure out. Also, leaderboard means nothing so its useless to reference that.
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Let me get this straight... I say HR who whine about GWF being OP are actually just inadequate and use balance to cover up their lack of performance. You quote me on it, and then respond by admitting a lack of performance and then continue to whine about GWF balance? Thanks
Are you seriously for real ??? Gwf has endless of cc thanks to 3 sec downtime if they happens to miss take down, they have endless with gap closing as at will abilty, they have a bugged roar that goes through everything, they have a long range knock down cc in front line and you say that if you dont avoid all this you are lacking in perfomrance --you are just a joke and your posting to defend what the waste majority thinks is a totally broken class in pvp has gone from redicules to pathetic.
The mechanics with extreamly high defence extreamly high burst dam extreamly high movability best cc immunity ingame(perma tr can compeat here) to say the least good healing abilities puts them in a spot other classes only can dream of and defending that only makes you the fool other already has pointed out....
Its a tricky class to balance. Like CWs, clerics are a high priority target so they often get focused which leads to a lot of deaths. But you can't make them too hard to focus down otherwise they become immortal. I'm not saying they don't need any buffs but they're definitely not in a bad spot. Its really just determining what a cleric should and shuoldnt be capable of doing in the context of a Domination match, which is tricky to figure out. Also, leaderboard means nothing so its useless to reference that.
DC can't stand a chance against any other class 1vs1. Some kill them sooner, some later, but the thing is - clerics can't survive anymore. With Tenacity AND nerfed self healing, it's no longer possible to recover after being chain CC'd. DC doing well at his supporting role? Only until he gets CC'd. DC is the most CC-vulnerable class.
Leaderboard perfectly shows amount of kills, deaths and assists.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Let me get this straight... I say HR who whine about GWF being OP are actually just inadequate and use balance to cover up their lack of performance. You quote me on it, and then respond by admitting a lack of performance and then continue to whine about GWF balance? Thanks
Let me get this straight....I say HR have multiple immunities on Shift, you quote me, accuse me of not understanding class mechanics, and then respond by saying that HR can't dodge half the time but GWF sprint can? Thanks. By the way, even if your dodges did only work half the time, you would still have more than every class in the game
You've seriously never used sprint to avoid a CC? Wow. Just...wow. Look people have posted videos of the effect I am talking about that youa re failing to comprehend. HR sees red, HR shifts out of red, HR falls down. So your "multiple imunity on shift" really is not an immunity. Now the GWF immunity on tab is a 100% works every time immunity that also boosts DPS, raises resistance, and adds HP and temp HP (If you did not go 1 in to sent your brain is malfunctioning). Because that's ballanced to you and the shortest dodge in the game with a regular fail rate is way OP? Let me explain the problem you are running into here buddy. We're arguing about two classes I know and play. One of which you have never played and are GUESSING at how it works from watching other people. Which is almost gauranteed to make you look foolish (well that and the profile pic).
You've seriously never used sprint to avoid a CC? Wow. Just...wow. Look people have posted videos of the effect I am talking about that youa re failing to comprehend. HR sees red, HR shifts out of red, HR falls down. So your "multiple imunity on shift" really is not an immunity. Now the GWF immunity on tab is a 100% works every time immunity that also boosts DPS, raises resistance, and adds HP and temp HP (If you did not go 1 in to sent your brain is malfunctioning). Because that's ballanced to you and the shortest dodge in the game with a regular fail rate is way OP? Let me explain the problem you are running into here buddy. We're arguing about two classes I know and play. One of which you have never played and are GUESSING at how it works from watching other people. Which is almost gauranteed to make you look foolish (well that and the profile pic).
I play HR and know exactly what you are talking about. You're trying to make it seem like HR dodge is bugged and crappy and GWF sprint is better and we both know that is just ridiculous. It was my fourth class I PvP'd with which by then I had a good sense of timing for most PvP spells and found it pretty darn easy to dodge these spells, especially with 6 chances. I'm sorry you dont quite have the timing down to dodge properly, but my guess is that when you thought you dodged something, you actually didn't and you think its a bug. And yes, you have 6 dodges and GWF have 3 attacks, if you can't dodge them then you have been outplayed. If you dodge a takedown it goes on full cooldown and I don't have to say that your dodges regenerate way faster than GWF cooldowns. If you ever let a GWF sprint out of your CC with any class then you have absolutely been outplayed, yes it happens, but its kind of embarrassing to let someone move out of your target area. Its not a dodge so don't act like it is and try to use that as another stepping stone for what you think is justified QQ.
You're taking this whole thing personally and its lead to you putting words in my mouth to try to make yourself feel like you are winning an argument. I'm not saying what you think I am, read what I've said again if you have to. I've said numerous times in other threads that Unstoppable is an overpowered PvP mechanic and is the root of GWF imbalances. I also never said that HR dodges were overpowered. Nonetheless, if your an HR and you can't beat a GWF with equal gear then youre just being outplayed, plain and simple. HR is way overpowered and if you don't realize that then you sir are the fool.
I tihnk what most people QQing want is for the GWF to turn into a class that cannot dodge any of their attacks, only have 3 extremely telegraphed and slow attacks that are easily dodged, cannot break CC, and dont live long enough to go Unstoppable.
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Nonetheless, if your an HR and you can't beat a GWF with equal gear then youre just being outplayed, plain and simple. HR is way overpowered and if you don't realize that then you sir are the fool.
So if cant beat a equal geared that has twice your dam twice your mitigation of dam 3xtimes your cc of wich 2 are prone ccs or 1 is prone and 1 goes through any defence making you stand still for 2-3 sec while he lands take down then ibs you been outplayed.
On top of that endless chain of gap closing which hits for 2-4k dam and if you make a single misstake of if lag hits you = 50% of your hp gone in one cc chain...
So if cant beat a equal geared that has twice your dam twice your mitigation of dam 3xtimes your cc of wich 2 are prone ccs or 1 is prone and 1 goes through any defence making you stand still for 2-3 sec while he lands take down then ibs you been outplayed.
On top of that endless chain of gap closing which hits for 2-4k dam and if you make a single misstake of if lag hits you = 50% of your hp gone in one cc chain...
It seems the problem is that most HR don't know how to optimally use their class.
HR > GWF > Bad HR > TR > CW/DC/GF
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It seems the problem is that most HR don't know how to optimally use their class.
PLZ enlighten us how to build a hr so he match what a gwf can do am sure it will be an interresting reading....
You can beat an inexperianced gwf of equal gear with an hr but when it comes to bis geared good played gwf they just have more dps more defence more of everything you have as a hr .
Beside that fact they gwf can make misstake on misstake on misstake in a combat without it has much effect on his performace but the hr dies when he makes his second or even first if low on hp.
PLZ enlighten us how to build a hr so he match what a gwf can do am sure it will be an interresting reading....
You can beat an inexperianced gwf of equal gear with an hr but when it comes to bis geared good played gwf they just have more dps more defence more of everything you have as a hr .
Beside that fact they gwf can make misstake on misstake on misstake in a combat without it has much effect on his performace but the hr dies when he makes his second or even first if low on hp.
This is true... no much rooms for HR mistakes, but also depend from the HR build (GWF build is irrelevant) and how many action points have the HR
HR Syncro - The Equalizer - PvP stats: 10000/4800 (kills/deaths)
I play HR and know exactly what you are talking about. You're trying to make it seem like HR dodge is bugged and crappy and GWF sprint is better and we both know that is just ridiculous. It was my fourth class I PvP'd with which by then I had a good sense of timing for most PvP spells and found it pretty darn easy to dodge these spells, especially with 6 chances. I'm sorry you dont quite have the timing down to dodge properly, but my guess is that when you thought you dodged something, you actually didn't and you think its a bug. And yes, you have 6 dodges and GWF have 3 attacks, if you can't dodge them then you have been outplayed. If you dodge a takedown it goes on full cooldown and I don't have to say that your dodges regenerate way faster than GWF cooldowns. If you ever let a GWF sprint out of your CC with any class then you have absolutely been outplayed, yes it happens, but its kind of embarrassing to let someone move out of your target area. Its not a dodge so don't act like it is and try to use that as another stepping stone for what you think is justified QQ.
You're taking this whole thing personally and its lead to you putting words in my mouth to try to make yourself feel like you are winning an argument. I'm not saying what you think I am, read what I've said again if you have to. I've said numerous times in other threads that Unstoppable is an overpowered PvP mechanic and is the root of GWF imbalances. I also never said that HR dodges were overpowered. Nonetheless, if your an HR and you can't beat a GWF with equal gear then youre just being outplayed, plain and simple. HR is way overpowered and if you don't realize that then you sir are the fool.
I tihnk what most people QQing want is for the GWF to turn into a class that cannot dodge any of their attacks, only have 3 extremely telegraphed and slow attacks that are easily dodged, cannot break CC, and dont live long enough to go Unstoppable.
Alright buddy so what are you saying? I mean what do you see in the HR that is more OP than unstoppable combined with GWF's preposterous damage output? I mean it ignores CC raises damage resistance, heals you and raises DPS and procs really fast. HRs have... dodges. Twice as many encounters but none of them do a fraction of IBS's damage. And beyond that what makes you think that they will ever nerf GWFs? They have shown no tendency to do so since they made them Uber. On the other hand a bazillion GWFs QQing because there was one HR power that could penetrate unstoppable and they changed it. Then they nerfed HRs again in Mod3. So you are worried that they will nerf a class that has never been nerfed and are instead complaining about the class that they have nerfed several times. How am I supposed to take you seriously?
Edit: Just correcting my memory here but you say you've said numerous times in other threads that unstoppable is OP in PVP. Scrooll back. Your first post in this thread was to say that they should not change unstoppable.
Your third post was about how HRs are OP because they have "CC immunity on shift" and now you are saying you never said that shift was the problem with HRs.
So you are literally contradicting yourself repeatedly within this thread. That does not make it a lot of work for me to "Put words into your mouth to feel like I am winning an argument" when I am using the words you have been typing the whole time. Am I putting them back into your mouth?
Here is what makes my HR very op: Aimed shot. My HR gs is 13k and I can at least 2 shot somebody or I can at most kill a god mode gwf with 3 - 4 shots. GF on the other hand... But We are talking about HR vs GWF. The thing is between the two is that both can kill in a few shots, both are awesome, both can be unstoppable with specific builds. But If I had to say which one has a bigger chance of being a game killer for me is a gwf. The moment a gwf stun me in some way I am as good as dead. Most of the time. Although neither of them is for me a big problem in most games. The problem is when you get into a random team with no tanks and only like one TR and they have 2 gwf and a gf and with a hr and a cw, while my team is made out of an dc, 2 hr, tr and cw.
The thing I learned in pvp is that the more tanky your team is the better chances you have of winning. That is my experience.
Man, you guys really don't like other peoples opinions do you? Why so sensitive? I'm not trolling just sharing my opinion, which can be incredibly difficult to do when you have a different perspective on the game than others do. Can someone help me out here? There is no way this many people don't know about the FOTM HR, especially people who claim to play HR!?!?!
Just to clarify what I've been saying here and what I haven't been saying, despite some people assuming and misinterpreting my words:
1. Unstoppable is an overpowered PvP mechanic. So is Sealth. So is stance-change. Changing Unstoppable (or either of the other two) is a bad idea because this game is not balanced solely around PvP. Nerfing Unstoppable, despite how good it is in PvP, would effectively make GWF just a terrible, terrible class for PvE and PvP. Instead, buff the classes that need it. I'm a firm believer in buffing the underrpowered before nerfing the overpowered.
2. MMOs don't take a significant amount of skill to play. The difficulty level of each class directly correlates with how overpowered that class is. Saying that one class takes more skill than another is false to say the least. Sure, utilizing game mechanics (good builds, proper rotations, good movement/jumping, etc.) or Domination strategy can help you win, but this is equally true for all classes. The class that is easiest and most forgiving of mistakes is the class that is the most overpowered and vice versa. So, lets just talk about balance instead, as it actually has some merit.
3. Overpowered/Underpowered is a matter of perspective. I think its quite clear to everyone that GWF/TR/HR are more powerful than CW/DC/GF. In my opinion, CW/DC/GF are slightly underpowered and not the other way around. Therefore, nerfs are not needed for the former group, but rather buffs for the latter.
4. The points I raise about how easily an HR can get his way in the Arena vs a GWF are not to argue that HR are overpowered. Its to reinforce the fact that GWF is not some lone OP class that destroys everything. TR and HR are right there with GWF in terms of balance(if you dont believe me go ask a CW/GF), theyre effectiveness in the Arena is just not as "in-your-face" as the GWF is, and so they apparently don't induce as much rage or QQ. HR definitely need the healing fix as much as GWF need the Roar fix. But we know thats happening and assuming its done well i think the top 3 classes will be balanced. As of now however, HR is definitely the most dominant Arena class in the game when played properly.
To add to all of this, I just want to say that if you aren't utilizing your class/game mechanics to optimize how powerful you are then you really need to inform yourself and/or practice more before expecting your posts to be taken seriously. I think a lot of the HRs ganging up on me just aren't aware of how good their class can be. Again, I'm not saying that GWF isn't also powerful, but you should at least realize that HR is just as good if not better. If you don't realize this fact then you can't be mad at me for assuming that you don't know what you're doing.
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To add to all of this, I just want to say that if you aren't utilizing your class/game mechanics to optimize how powerful you are then you really need to inform yourself and/or practice more before expecting your posts to be taken seriously. I think a lot of the HRs ganging up on me just aren't aware of how good their class can be. Again, I'm not saying that GWF isn't also powerful, but you should at least realize that HR is just as good if not better. If you don't realize this fact then you can't be mad at me for assuming that you don't know what you're doing.
You dont seem to realize that most players that has answered you play both gwf and hr as i do.
Gwfs extreamly high burst dam combined with best in game ccs and an immunity to dam and ccs that no other class can match makes them #1.
Put 3 hrs togethe against 3 gwfs and you see why - every single hr will die from one cc chain from the gwfs running together while if targeted by 3 hrs a gwf will just put up unstoppable and the first hr will die from the cc chain incomming.
If you cant see why the gwfs have more tools in the toolbox in pvp compared to other classes (one might say better tools rather then more) then you are simple not 1 very bright or 2 very experianced.
I think most are said in this thread and others and if you refuse to understand there is a reason why so many comes to the same conclution and you to another its not much more to add...
You dont seem to realize that most players that has anwered you play both gwf and hr as i do.
Gwfs extreamly high burst dam combined with best in game ccs and an immunity to dam and ccs that no other class can match makes them #1.
Put 3 hrs togethe against 3 gwfs and you see why - every single hr will die from one cc chain from the gwfs running together while if targeted by 3 hrs a gwf will just put up unstoppable and the first hr will die from the cc chain incomming.
If you cant see why the gwfs have more tools in the toolbox in pvp compared to other classes (one might say better tools rather then more) then you are simple not 1 very bright or 2 very experianced.
I think most are said in this thread and others and if you refuse to understand there is a reason why so many comes to the same conclution and you to another its not much more to add...
All of this is just wrong which is exactly what I mean when I said you can't really get mad at me for assuming you don't know what you're doing.
I don't mind being in the minority because I have a feeling most of the HR in this thread who are QQing are equally ignorant to their class as you seem to be. If 11 people tell you that you are healthy and 1 doctor tells you that you aren't , who are you going to listen to?
Keep suggesting GWF nerfs and I will keep explaining to people why its a bad idea. Maybe if all of these QQers ganging up on me were GFs or CWs they would be capable of making some good points. The fact that so many HRs don't realize that their class is just as good as the GWF just goes to show that they don't know what they're talking about and that their suggestions are biased, rage-based, and uninformed and further proves that GWF doesn't need a nerf.
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Keep suggesting GWF nerfs and I will keep explaining to people why its a bad idea. Maybe if all of these QQers ganging up on me were GFs or CWs they would be capable of making some good points. The fact that so many HRs don't realize that their class is just as good as the GWF just goes to show that they don't know what they're talking about and that their suggestions are biased, rage-based, and uninformed and further proves that GWF doesn't need a nerf
.
Feel free to quote me where i say gwf need a nerf, exactly what did i say in that direction.
I have a hr with 9th all over and perfect both PGF and V and i tested about every build there is with the hr. Beside that fyi i played pvp games for about 15 years and last i played age of conan for 5 years whish makes this pvp look like childs play when it comes to individual skills and combat. (just to get a picture of what it means - in combat you moved while hitting and used up to 50+hot bottons with skills/hits/abilities something whish this game is far far from).
If you get a diagnostic from 12 different sources the chanse is that the 11 saying the same thing might be true is quite high dont ya think.
The only one ignorant here is you and just because you refuse to see the light in the tunnel being utterly blind doesent mean all others are .....
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unbahMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
Keep suggesting GWF nerfs and I will keep explaining to people why its a bad idea.
One class has damage, burst, mitigation, CC immunity, self healing, cc lockdown, mobility, gap closers, range. Anything I missed? Oh right, they don't have dodges... Now please explain why GWF's don't need a nerf.
One class has damage, burst, mitigation, CC immunity, self healing, cc lockdown, mobility, gap closers, range. Anything I missed? Oh right, they don't have dodges... Now please explain why GWF's don't need a nerf.
because ... half of these characteristics only the iv have? and these additional features are unnecessary for pve? (while the other did the gwf, the worst class in the game, it becomes inviting?)
Feel free to quote me where i say gwf need a nerf, exactly what did i say in that direction.
I have a hr with 9th all over and perfect both PGF and V and i tested about every build there is with the hr. Beside that fyi i played pvp games for about 15 years and last i played age of conan for 5 years whish makes this pvp look like childs play when it comes to individual skills and combat. (just to get a picture of what it means - in combat you moved while hitting and used up to 50+hot bottons with skills/hits/abilities something whish this game is far far from).
If you get a diagnostic from 12 different sources the chanse is that the 11 saying the same thing might be true is quite high dont ya think.
The only one ignorant here is you and just because you refuse to see the light in the tunnel being utterly blind doesent mean all others are .....
I assumed you were advocating GWF nerfs since all I have done in this thread is explain why they shouldn't nerf GWF and all you have done is argue with me. If you're not suggesting GWF nerfs, and you disagree with me at every turn, what exactly are you trying to accomplish in this thread other than unproductive arguing? This thread is about nerfing unstoppable (nerfing the GWF) so what exactly is your stance?
PS Im glad we can actually agree on the fact that Neverwinter isn't a skill-based video game. I too have played lots of PvP which is why I continually talk about this games lack of a need for skill.
PPS I'm sure youre a smart enough person to know that the popular opinion isn't always the correct one. This is especially true on something like an MMO forum. So , no, I don't think 11 out of 12 people saying one thing makes it true.
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One class has damage, burst, mitigation, CC immunity, self healing, cc lockdown, mobility, gap closers, range. Anything I missed? Oh right, they don't have dodges... Now please explain why GWF's don't need a nerf.
Because it would be better to buff the other classes instead.
Its easy to make lists like that to make balance sound worse than it is. In fact, youre little list could be applied to HR without even changing it all :
damage, burst, mitigation, CC immunity, self-healing, cc lockdown, mobility, gap closers, range. Anything I missed? Oh right, twice as many dodges as any class in the game. See?
I could probably do it for GF and CW just to show you how pointless they are.
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I assumed you were advocating GWF nerfs since all I have done in this thread is explain why they shouldn't nerf GWF and all you have done is argue with me. If you're not suggesting GWF nerfs, and you disagree with me at every turn, what exactly are you trying to accomplish in this thread other than unproductive arguing? This thread is about nerfing unstoppable (nerfing the GWF) so what exactly is your stance?
Well the argument is if the gwf is op as hell as it is now and you are trying to argue that they are not. Fact is that i dont want a nerf for gwf as they need whatever they have in pve, i know i played almost since beta and i went through the premodule 2 phase(not a fun experiance).
But when i comes to pvp in this game the synergy of what gwfs bring to the table is way out of line compared to other classes.
Hr is in a good spot i admit that but other classes dont get outright killed in 3 sec by them in the way a gwf does. Even cw can cc a hr and get away while its impossible for a cw to run from a gwf.
There is a reason peeps starting to make 3-4 gwfs partys more and more in pvp right now. They just roll over anything because when you combine the burst and the cc abilities of sevaral gwfs running together its like a running unstoppable freight train rolling over anything in its path.
Buffing some abilities of the other classes is a far more fun way of handling the situation then nerfing the gwf so they become useless in pve again.
BUT they are op as hell in pvp - They do have almost all the advantages and few if even some dissadvantages as it is now.
(BTW in old AD&D the wizzys had a spell called Fireshield whish made dam done to them reflect back at the attacker and i think something like that would make it both easer and more fun to pvp with cws without doing anything to change to much)
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unbahMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
Because it would be better to buff the other classes instead.
Its easy to make lists like that to make balance sound worse than it is. In fact, youre little list could be applied to HR without even changing it all :
damage, burst, mitigation, CC immunity, self-healing, cc lockdown, mobility, gap closers, range. Anything I missed? Oh right, twice as many dodges as any class in the game. See?
I could probably do it for GF and CW just to show you how pointless they are.
Right. GF has better mitigation, CW better range. But its the combination of them that makes IV GWF a beast. I agree on HR's, and I agree that buffing other classes would be better. But that just won't happen. Remember the reason behind introduction of tenacity? Buffing other classes to the lvl of GWF will make it pointless. I just think that both tenacity and IV path for GWF were huge mistakes. Everyone said that it was an outrage that a TR could kill in 2-3 shots. SE got nerfed to the point of being almost useless in pvp and utterly useless in pve. Now GWF does the same with encounters. We can write here all we want, devs will make their own decisions anyway. Only problem is, they don't seem to know what is going on in their game, or what repercussions will the changes have.
All of this is just wrong which is exactly what I mean when I said you can't really get mad at me for assuming you don't know what you're doing.
I don't mind being in the minority because I have a feeling most of the HR in this thread who are QQing are equally ignorant to their class as you seem to be. If 11 people tell you that you are healthy and 1 doctor tells you that you aren't , who are you going to listen to?
Keep suggesting GWF nerfs and I will keep explaining to people why its a bad idea. Maybe if all of these QQers ganging up on me were GFs or CWs they would be capable of making some good points. The fact that so many HRs don't realize that their class is just as good as the GWF just goes to show that they don't know what they're talking about and that their suggestions are biased, rage-based, and uninformed and further proves that GWF doesn't need a nerf.
And this is the esential problem with your position. I'm going to make up some rough numbers because Cryptic is, well, cryptic about player demographics. Let be generous and say that 60% the player base is PVE focussed. Really generous considering that 90% of the content is PVE. Now when you say "doctor" in reference to yourself I assume your credentials are that you are a hard-core PVP player. What would that be the top 10% or so? Just as a rough figure. 10% of 40% is 4% So when you are giving your opinion of what 'ballance' means in NWO you are giving what it means to 1 in 25 players (being generous). Which is where I need to break the bad news to you. You are assuming what is ballance for an extreme minority of the players. And like most MMOs the hardcore PVPers are the most rabid and loudest minority. This dynamic is not specific to NWO but something you run into in most MMOs out there. In high end play the level of skill changes the ballance. In casual of even mid-range PVP the GWF is over dominant because the skill threshold to get there is lower. Which is why most people will always disagree with you. So basically if your 'credentials' as a 'doctor' are that you are in the top tenth of PVP play your not even describing the same game everyone else is playing. Or even wants to. ANd I have certainly lived through enough games that simply dies out because the changes were made according to what the 'doctor' had ordered.
Edit: Something I should add here specifically about the HR. It was the newest shiniest toy and half the server population made alts of that class. For various reasons they were not popular in PVE. Which means that an awful lot of HRs are now PVP-only toons played by someone grinding AD on something else. This really, really, really distorts the curve on what sorts of HRs you will run into if you have a decent ELO rating.
Comments
I couldn't agree more. At first I could swear the HR was the most OP class at times where they could heal and stuff like that. Then I rolled one and saw how hard they actually are to play. They can be extremely OP but that's only if they know what they're doing which most don't.
On the other hand every GWF is running around IV Destroyer pouncing on people with way better skill then them just because their class is totally messed up. "I'm gonna use my teleports to get away from you so I can attack you from range" No worries they have an at-will for that. "I'm gonna pop an encounter that can't be CC'd or Proned while it's still going on" No worries they have an encounter for that. "Since I'm the best at single target DPS I'm gonna take this GWF down so my team can have a shot at winning" Nerf nerf nerf No worries GWFs are 10x stronger. "I can tank him while my team tries to end him" Ha No worries GWFs are 10x better at tanking. "I'm a control wizard so I'll be able to control this GWF" No worries they have CC immunity when they pop unstoppable and they have more prones then you anyway. "I have 6 dodges no way he catch me" No worries they have an ability that can catch you mid dodge
Do you guys see where I'm getting at here? They have things that can counter every class.... How can scissors cut paper that has iron steel and metal inside of it? Please oh mighty famous GWFs who are SOOOO underpowered. Roll another class and show me your master plans at killing an IV Destroyer GWF
Ahahahahahahahah, DC what?
GWFs farm DCs in pvp. The fact that we have poor cc and no escape mechanism, besides two dodges every several seconds, put us in a very bad spot against a GWF.
DC aren't a 1v1 class. They definitely have a role in the Arena and are very capable of helping their team win.
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Stop with that nonsense. Clerics should have a way to survive even alone. We are an easy target for GWFS train. It's not funny to die so many times against a competent team. Look at the leaderboard. Look for clerics, even the strongest ones. Almost all have the greatest number of deaths. That's not balance.
Let me get this straight... I say HR who whine about GWF being OP are actually just inadequate and use balance to cover up their lack of performance. You quote me on it, and then respond by admitting a lack of performance and then continue to whine about GWF balance? Thanks
Let me get this straight....I say HR have multiple immunities on Shift, you quote me, accuse me of not understanding class mechanics, and then respond by saying that HR can't dodge half the time but GWF sprint can? Thanks. By the way, even if your dodges did only work half the time, you would still have more than every class in the game
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Its a tricky class to balance. Like CWs, clerics are a high priority target so they often get focused which leads to a lot of deaths. But you can't make them too hard to focus down otherwise they become immortal. I'm not saying they don't need any buffs but they're definitely not in a bad spot. Its really just determining what a cleric should and shuoldnt be capable of doing in the context of a Domination match, which is tricky to figure out. Also, leaderboard means nothing so its useless to reference that.
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Are you seriously for real ??? Gwf has endless of cc thanks to 3 sec downtime if they happens to miss take down, they have endless with gap closing as at will abilty, they have a bugged roar that goes through everything, they have a long range knock down cc in front line and you say that if you dont avoid all this you are lacking in perfomrance --you are just a joke and your posting to defend what the waste majority thinks is a totally broken class in pvp has gone from redicules to pathetic.
The mechanics with extreamly high defence extreamly high burst dam extreamly high movability best cc immunity ingame(perma tr can compeat here) to say the least good healing abilities puts them in a spot other classes only can dream of and defending that only makes you the fool other already has pointed out....
DC can't stand a chance against any other class 1vs1. Some kill them sooner, some later, but the thing is - clerics can't survive anymore. With Tenacity AND nerfed self healing, it's no longer possible to recover after being chain CC'd. DC doing well at his supporting role? Only until he gets CC'd. DC is the most CC-vulnerable class.
Leaderboard perfectly shows amount of kills, deaths and assists.
You've seriously never used sprint to avoid a CC? Wow. Just...wow. Look people have posted videos of the effect I am talking about that youa re failing to comprehend. HR sees red, HR shifts out of red, HR falls down. So your "multiple imunity on shift" really is not an immunity. Now the GWF immunity on tab is a 100% works every time immunity that also boosts DPS, raises resistance, and adds HP and temp HP (If you did not go 1 in to sent your brain is malfunctioning). Because that's ballanced to you and the shortest dodge in the game with a regular fail rate is way OP? Let me explain the problem you are running into here buddy. We're arguing about two classes I know and play. One of which you have never played and are GUESSING at how it works from watching other people. Which is almost gauranteed to make you look foolish (well that and the profile pic).
I play HR and know exactly what you are talking about. You're trying to make it seem like HR dodge is bugged and crappy and GWF sprint is better and we both know that is just ridiculous. It was my fourth class I PvP'd with which by then I had a good sense of timing for most PvP spells and found it pretty darn easy to dodge these spells, especially with 6 chances. I'm sorry you dont quite have the timing down to dodge properly, but my guess is that when you thought you dodged something, you actually didn't and you think its a bug. And yes, you have 6 dodges and GWF have 3 attacks, if you can't dodge them then you have been outplayed. If you dodge a takedown it goes on full cooldown and I don't have to say that your dodges regenerate way faster than GWF cooldowns. If you ever let a GWF sprint out of your CC with any class then you have absolutely been outplayed, yes it happens, but its kind of embarrassing to let someone move out of your target area. Its not a dodge so don't act like it is and try to use that as another stepping stone for what you think is justified QQ.
You're taking this whole thing personally and its lead to you putting words in my mouth to try to make yourself feel like you are winning an argument. I'm not saying what you think I am, read what I've said again if you have to. I've said numerous times in other threads that Unstoppable is an overpowered PvP mechanic and is the root of GWF imbalances. I also never said that HR dodges were overpowered. Nonetheless, if your an HR and you can't beat a GWF with equal gear then youre just being outplayed, plain and simple. HR is way overpowered and if you don't realize that then you sir are the fool.
I tihnk what most people QQing want is for the GWF to turn into a class that cannot dodge any of their attacks, only have 3 extremely telegraphed and slow attacks that are easily dodged, cannot break CC, and dont live long enough to go Unstoppable.
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Indomitable Battle Strike > Shocking Execution
Takedown > Ice Knife
Threatening Rush on GWF + Roar = lol
GWF > HR > TR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CW/DC/GF
So if cant beat a equal geared that has twice your dam twice your mitigation of dam 3xtimes your cc of wich 2 are prone ccs or 1 is prone and 1 goes through any defence making you stand still for 2-3 sec while he lands take down then ibs you been outplayed.
On top of that endless chain of gap closing which hits for 2-4k dam and if you make a single misstake of if lag hits you = 50% of your hp gone in one cc chain...
It seems the problem is that most HR don't know how to optimally use their class.
HR > GWF > Bad HR > TR > CW/DC/GF
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PLZ enlighten us how to build a hr so he match what a gwf can do am sure it will be an interresting reading....
You can beat an inexperianced gwf of equal gear with an hr but when it comes to bis geared good played gwf they just have more dps more defence more of everything you have as a hr .
Beside that fact they gwf can make misstake on misstake on misstake in a combat without it has much effect on his performace but the hr dies when he makes his second or even first if low on hp.
This is true... no much rooms for HR mistakes, but also depend from the HR build (GWF build is irrelevant) and how many action points have the HR
Alright buddy so what are you saying? I mean what do you see in the HR that is more OP than unstoppable combined with GWF's preposterous damage output? I mean it ignores CC raises damage resistance, heals you and raises DPS and procs really fast. HRs have... dodges. Twice as many encounters but none of them do a fraction of IBS's damage. And beyond that what makes you think that they will ever nerf GWFs? They have shown no tendency to do so since they made them Uber. On the other hand a bazillion GWFs QQing because there was one HR power that could penetrate unstoppable and they changed it. Then they nerfed HRs again in Mod3. So you are worried that they will nerf a class that has never been nerfed and are instead complaining about the class that they have nerfed several times. How am I supposed to take you seriously?
Edit: Just correcting my memory here but you say you've said numerous times in other threads that unstoppable is OP in PVP. Scrooll back. Your first post in this thread was to say that they should not change unstoppable.
Your third post was about how HRs are OP because they have "CC immunity on shift" and now you are saying you never said that shift was the problem with HRs.
So you are literally contradicting yourself repeatedly within this thread. That does not make it a lot of work for me to "Put words into your mouth to feel like I am winning an argument" when I am using the words you have been typing the whole time. Am I putting them back into your mouth?
The thing I learned in pvp is that the more tanky your team is the better chances you have of winning. That is my experience.
Classy Hyena: HR
Classy Mistress: GWF
Just to clarify what I've been saying here and what I haven't been saying, despite some people assuming and misinterpreting my words:
1. Unstoppable is an overpowered PvP mechanic. So is Sealth. So is stance-change. Changing Unstoppable (or either of the other two) is a bad idea because this game is not balanced solely around PvP. Nerfing Unstoppable, despite how good it is in PvP, would effectively make GWF just a terrible, terrible class for PvE and PvP. Instead, buff the classes that need it. I'm a firm believer in buffing the underrpowered before nerfing the overpowered.
2. MMOs don't take a significant amount of skill to play. The difficulty level of each class directly correlates with how overpowered that class is. Saying that one class takes more skill than another is false to say the least. Sure, utilizing game mechanics (good builds, proper rotations, good movement/jumping, etc.) or Domination strategy can help you win, but this is equally true for all classes. The class that is easiest and most forgiving of mistakes is the class that is the most overpowered and vice versa. So, lets just talk about balance instead, as it actually has some merit.
3. Overpowered/Underpowered is a matter of perspective. I think its quite clear to everyone that GWF/TR/HR are more powerful than CW/DC/GF. In my opinion, CW/DC/GF are slightly underpowered and not the other way around. Therefore, nerfs are not needed for the former group, but rather buffs for the latter.
4. The points I raise about how easily an HR can get his way in the Arena vs a GWF are not to argue that HR are overpowered. Its to reinforce the fact that GWF is not some lone OP class that destroys everything. TR and HR are right there with GWF in terms of balance(if you dont believe me go ask a CW/GF), theyre effectiveness in the Arena is just not as "in-your-face" as the GWF is, and so they apparently don't induce as much rage or QQ. HR definitely need the healing fix as much as GWF need the Roar fix. But we know thats happening and assuming its done well i think the top 3 classes will be balanced. As of now however, HR is definitely the most dominant Arena class in the game when played properly.
To add to all of this, I just want to say that if you aren't utilizing your class/game mechanics to optimize how powerful you are then you really need to inform yourself and/or practice more before expecting your posts to be taken seriously. I think a lot of the HRs ganging up on me just aren't aware of how good their class can be. Again, I'm not saying that GWF isn't also powerful, but you should at least realize that HR is just as good if not better. If you don't realize this fact then you can't be mad at me for assuming that you don't know what you're doing.
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You dont seem to realize that most players that has answered you play both gwf and hr as i do.
Gwfs extreamly high burst dam combined with best in game ccs and an immunity to dam and ccs that no other class can match makes them #1.
Put 3 hrs togethe against 3 gwfs and you see why - every single hr will die from one cc chain from the gwfs running together while if targeted by 3 hrs a gwf will just put up unstoppable and the first hr will die from the cc chain incomming.
If you cant see why the gwfs have more tools in the toolbox in pvp compared to other classes (one might say better tools rather then more) then you are simple not 1 very bright or 2 very experianced.
I think most are said in this thread and others and if you refuse to understand there is a reason why so many comes to the same conclution and you to another its not much more to add...
All of this is just wrong which is exactly what I mean when I said you can't really get mad at me for assuming you don't know what you're doing.
I don't mind being in the minority because I have a feeling most of the HR in this thread who are QQing are equally ignorant to their class as you seem to be. If 11 people tell you that you are healthy and 1 doctor tells you that you aren't , who are you going to listen to?
Keep suggesting GWF nerfs and I will keep explaining to people why its a bad idea. Maybe if all of these QQers ganging up on me were GFs or CWs they would be capable of making some good points. The fact that so many HRs don't realize that their class is just as good as the GWF just goes to show that they don't know what they're talking about and that their suggestions are biased, rage-based, and uninformed and further proves that GWF doesn't need a nerf.
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Feel free to quote me where i say gwf need a nerf, exactly what did i say in that direction.
I have a hr with 9th all over and perfect both PGF and V and i tested about every build there is with the hr. Beside that fyi i played pvp games for about 15 years and last i played age of conan for 5 years whish makes this pvp look like childs play when it comes to individual skills and combat. (just to get a picture of what it means - in combat you moved while hitting and used up to 50+hot bottons with skills/hits/abilities something whish this game is far far from).
If you get a diagnostic from 12 different sources the chanse is that the 11 saying the same thing might be true is quite high dont ya think.
The only one ignorant here is you and just because you refuse to see the light in the tunnel being utterly blind doesent mean all others are .....
One class has damage, burst, mitigation, CC immunity, self healing, cc lockdown, mobility, gap closers, range. Anything I missed? Oh right, they don't have dodges... Now please explain why GWF's don't need a nerf.
because ... half of these characteristics only the iv have? and these additional features are unnecessary for pve? (while the other did the gwf, the worst class in the game, it becomes inviting?)
I assumed you were advocating GWF nerfs since all I have done in this thread is explain why they shouldn't nerf GWF and all you have done is argue with me. If you're not suggesting GWF nerfs, and you disagree with me at every turn, what exactly are you trying to accomplish in this thread other than unproductive arguing? This thread is about nerfing unstoppable (nerfing the GWF) so what exactly is your stance?
PS Im glad we can actually agree on the fact that Neverwinter isn't a skill-based video game. I too have played lots of PvP which is why I continually talk about this games lack of a need for skill.
PPS I'm sure youre a smart enough person to know that the popular opinion isn't always the correct one. This is especially true on something like an MMO forum. So , no, I don't think 11 out of 12 people saying one thing makes it true.
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Because it would be better to buff the other classes instead.
Its easy to make lists like that to make balance sound worse than it is. In fact, youre little list could be applied to HR without even changing it all :
damage, burst, mitigation, CC immunity, self-healing, cc lockdown, mobility, gap closers, range. Anything I missed? Oh right, twice as many dodges as any class in the game. See?
I could probably do it for GF and CW just to show you how pointless they are.
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Well the argument is if the gwf is op as hell as it is now and you are trying to argue that they are not. Fact is that i dont want a nerf for gwf as they need whatever they have in pve, i know i played almost since beta and i went through the premodule 2 phase(not a fun experiance).
But when i comes to pvp in this game the synergy of what gwfs bring to the table is way out of line compared to other classes.
Hr is in a good spot i admit that but other classes dont get outright killed in 3 sec by them in the way a gwf does. Even cw can cc a hr and get away while its impossible for a cw to run from a gwf.
There is a reason peeps starting to make 3-4 gwfs partys more and more in pvp right now. They just roll over anything because when you combine the burst and the cc abilities of sevaral gwfs running together its like a running unstoppable freight train rolling over anything in its path.
Buffing some abilities of the other classes is a far more fun way of handling the situation then nerfing the gwf so they become useless in pve again.
BUT they are op as hell in pvp - They do have almost all the advantages and few if even some dissadvantages as it is now.
(BTW in old AD&D the wizzys had a spell called Fireshield whish made dam done to them reflect back at the attacker and i think something like that would make it both easer and more fun to pvp with cws without doing anything to change to much)
Right. GF has better mitigation, CW better range. But its the combination of them that makes IV GWF a beast. I agree on HR's, and I agree that buffing other classes would be better. But that just won't happen. Remember the reason behind introduction of tenacity? Buffing other classes to the lvl of GWF will make it pointless. I just think that both tenacity and IV path for GWF were huge mistakes. Everyone said that it was an outrage that a TR could kill in 2-3 shots. SE got nerfed to the point of being almost useless in pvp and utterly useless in pve. Now GWF does the same with encounters. We can write here all we want, devs will make their own decisions anyway. Only problem is, they don't seem to know what is going on in their game, or what repercussions will the changes have.
And this is the esential problem with your position. I'm going to make up some rough numbers because Cryptic is, well, cryptic about player demographics. Let be generous and say that 60% the player base is PVE focussed. Really generous considering that 90% of the content is PVE. Now when you say "doctor" in reference to yourself I assume your credentials are that you are a hard-core PVP player. What would that be the top 10% or so? Just as a rough figure. 10% of 40% is 4% So when you are giving your opinion of what 'ballance' means in NWO you are giving what it means to 1 in 25 players (being generous). Which is where I need to break the bad news to you. You are assuming what is ballance for an extreme minority of the players. And like most MMOs the hardcore PVPers are the most rabid and loudest minority. This dynamic is not specific to NWO but something you run into in most MMOs out there. In high end play the level of skill changes the ballance. In casual of even mid-range PVP the GWF is over dominant because the skill threshold to get there is lower. Which is why most people will always disagree with you. So basically if your 'credentials' as a 'doctor' are that you are in the top tenth of PVP play your not even describing the same game everyone else is playing. Or even wants to. ANd I have certainly lived through enough games that simply dies out because the changes were made according to what the 'doctor' had ordered.
Edit: Something I should add here specifically about the HR. It was the newest shiniest toy and half the server population made alts of that class. For various reasons they were not popular in PVE. Which means that an awful lot of HRs are now PVP-only toons played by someone grinding AD on something else. This really, really, really distorts the curve on what sorts of HRs you will run into if you have a decent ELO rating.