And ive played since beta, and have concurred with other players that a good cc rotation, done right IS perma-control. To say that CW has NEVER been on top of pvp is to admit that you haven't played since beta. Nice try on YOUR imagination . Back since open beta, before permastealth kicked off, the most brutal team comps consisted of, once again everybody? stacking CWs for the control and dps. Sound like a certain other player versus in this game? hmmm....
Just because Mod 2 came out awhile back DOES NOT mean that everything that happened before it didn't exist, nice try . Actually, one of the first complaints I remember hearing about in pvp was the weak at the time gwf + others getting controlled to death by CWs. I think narrow minded CWs like you forgot where they were in the first place, let alone where they are now.
The only difference is a CW needed time to set up his damage as it was in small / medium chunks until he hit you with the big damage! GWF are immune to CC, sprint, heal, and get faster attack speed while they deal MASSIVE chunks of damage all at the same time.
If GWF needed to set up the big damage then they would be fine, but they hit for crazy damage from the first hit til your dead!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This is a good idea... but it might cause even worse queueing in gg though... Not a lot of DCs pop in gg anymore, and GWFs and HRs are in numbers there. Not knocking it, just saying that the player population might make that one unviable.
Qued Domination thaqt would be great, Open world its always handful of ( x-y-z classes vs a zone of GWFS! )
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
The only difference is a CW needed time to set up his damage as it was in small / medium chunks until he hit you with the big damage! GWF are immune to CC, sprint, heal, and get faster attack speed while they deal MASSIVE chunks of damage all at the same time.
If GWF needed to set up the big damage then they would be fine, but they hit for crazy damage from the first hit til your dead!
Oh, not disagreeing how it is NOW. Just telling that tool off because I was explaining how it was BACK THEN. Because their cc ruled the streets at the time(remember: GWF is actually better than he used to be!) they had nothing much to worry about. They had cc, they had burst damage, they had better cooldowns on their abilities(combination of best recovery + encounters like takedown weren't as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> back then, remember?).
Like I said, not saying that's how it is now. Just that he forgets how it was back then.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Also, another debater on pvp discussions in the past...
"As pointed out Guardian Fighter (Even if you spec for pure defense) can die in a matter of 5 seconds to a TR, the Guard Meter is easy to drop in PvP then the TR will proceed to 2~3 shot the so called 'tank' and let us not forget! a TR can stop a GF from even blocking in the 1st place, so no need to drain the guard meter, but as you say.. no reason to complain. CW can kill this 'tank' just as quickly while CCing and lets not forget the ridiculous range.
A team with a cleric vs a team without a cleric (equal skill) the team with it is going to win, obviously balanced according to you.
GWF- Attacks are slower and easy to cancel by other classes which leads it to doing no damage. People saying they are fine are just creating instances where a GWF will perform well, but will that scenario ever become a reality in lvl 60 PvP? No.
If you've ever played enough by now you'll know CW, TR, and DC are the dominant classes in PvP, and a major issue is that sustain is too strong in PvP (team with cleric is pretty much going to win assuming they don't fail), and the damage is way too high while defense being nearly useless, as pointed out by many 1htkos are possible and even if it isn't a 1htko people are simply being 2~3 shotted/instagibbed by TRs and CWs, and cool downs in PvP given their current power is all relatively short.
Now, you may enjoy the whole 1~4 shot (or the kill your opponent in 2~5 seconds) but many people do not. If you've played enough MMOs with PvP you would know by now people who wish to PvP like fights that last a reasonable time, not too short or too long, there has to be a balance in power/defense, no reason any class should kill another by simply mashing buttons faster. Then the simple fact it's possible to balance PvP without it even impacting PvE".
^P.S. don't know how to quote someone this far back, but its a person in the same thread I listed. People forget how much this game has changed since beta.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Oh, not disagreeing how it is NOW. Just telling that tool off because I was explaining how it was BACK THEN. Because their cc ruled the streets at the time(remember: GWF is actually better than he used to be!) they had nothing much to worry about. They had cc, they had burst damage, they had better cooldowns on their abilities(combination of best recovery + encounters like takedown weren't as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> back then, remember?).
Like I said, not saying that's how it is now. Just that he forgets how it was back then.
I agree, before Tenacity I too rolled a CW see my signature for his name....
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I agree, before Tenacity I too rolled a CW see my signature for his name....
I got ya. All I was pointing out, and have seen other past posters/threads agree, was that CWs were quite the cat's pajamas in the past in pvp. Now=not so much. Its flipped from a gwf being useless to being top, and cw from being greatest, to only holding pve status now.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Also, another debater on pvp discussions in the past...
"As pointed out Guardian Fighter (Even if you spec for pure defense) can die in a matter of 5 seconds to a TR, the Guard Meter is easy to drop in PvP then the TR will proceed to 2~3 shot the so called 'tank' and let us not forget! a TR can stop a GF from even blocking in the 1st place, so no need to drain the guard meter, but as you say.. no reason to complain. CW can kill this 'tank' just as quickly while CCing and lets not forget the ridiculous range.
A team with a cleric vs a team without a cleric (equal skill) the team with it is going to win, obviously balanced according to you.
GWF- Attacks are slower and easy to cancel by other classes which leads it to doing no damage. People saying they are fine are just creating instances where a GWF will perform well, but will that scenario ever become a reality in lvl 60 PvP? No.
If you've ever played enough by now you'll know CW, TR, and DC are the dominant classes in PvP, and a major issue is that sustain is too strong in PvP (team with cleric is pretty much going to win assuming they don't fail), and the damage is way too high while defense being nearly useless, as pointed out by many 1htkos are possible and even if it isn't a 1htko people are simply being 2~3 shotted/instagibbed by TRs and CWs, and cool downs in PvP given their current power is all relatively short.
Now, you may enjoy the whole 1~4 shot (or the kill your opponent in 2~5 seconds) but many people do not. If you've played enough MMOs with PvP you would know by now people who wish to PvP like fights that last a reasonable time, not too short or too long, there has to be a balance in power/defense, no reason any class should kill another by simply mashing buttons faster. Then the simple fact it's possible to balance PvP without it even impacting PvE".
^P.S. don't know how to quote someone this far back, but its a person in the same thread I listed. People forget how much this game has changed since beta.
Thats hilarious! Now though...
CW ~ has lost their control
GF ~ Defense means pretty much nothing as we are killed in less time then classes that can dodge
DC ~ They cannot keep themselves healed!
HR ~ Can do what a GF should be able to, but without dieing and healing themselves to full over and over.
GWF ~ Can literally run in kill 3 people, run out and grab another node before we even rez and mount up!
TR ~ Are decent unless they roll Perma lame spec, but can choose to fight or just run away heal and restart at their leisure.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
GF ~ Defense means pretty much nothing as we are killed in less time then classes that can dodge
DC ~ They cannot keep themselves healed!
HR ~ Can do what a GF should be able to, but without dieing and healing themselves to full over and over.
GWF ~ Can literally run in kill 3 people, run out and grab another node before we even rez and mount up!
TR ~ Are decent unless they roll Perma lame spec, but can choose to fight or just run away heal and restart at their leisure.
Like I said, don't disagree with this! The statement I showed would be bs false now, wouldn't it? but back then... this was viable pvp gameplay.
P.S. I was quoting a poster in THAT thread, just too tired/unknowledgeable to post it in quote form.
Ill tell you a correlation with how they act now versus why they got nerfed though...
CW=too much control/burst damage
DC=healing used to be great/stacked DCs made people immortal
HR=roots and some of their control damage got nerfed, because they were basically an anti GWF class
GWF=used to tank quite a bit, but died to CW burst damage too often(now theyre the best!)
GF=Actually always been screwed lol
TR=their burst damage got nerfed to heck, and that's why more go for survivability(permastealth) now.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
If, for example, that they actually LOST a great deal of tankiness by going unstoppable, but gained better damage?
I admit that theres just no disadvantage to going unstoppable. Other classes, on the other hand(minus tr) have to think wisely about using theirs. DCs have to make sure they have enough divinity for theirs, CWs only get one ability they can slot, GFs cant use encounters AND walk slowly while guarding, HRs switching back and forth have to choose their encounters wisely, because some work in certain aspects, whereas their melee/range counterpart may blow in that same aspect.
Actually you have never played a TR I can kind of tell. TRs mechanic is the hardest to pop and the hardest to stay in to (if facing a good opponent) For example. It's the exact opposite of unstoppable, because unstoppable pops whenever you take damage but stealth pops when you take no damage or use an encounter. And not stupid players will run around with their mouse until they get a red target and then CC you till death or in the cases of those who have no CCs or not many (HR, TRs) They will put out a DOT via Thorn Ward, POTB. So it actually does have disadvantages. Once that 1 rotation is messed up your dead .
Actually you have never played a TR I can kind of tell. TRs mechanic is the hardest to pop and the hardest to stay in to (if facing a good opponent) For example. It's the exact opposite of unstoppable, because unstoppable pops whenever you take damage but stealth pops when you take no damage or use an encounter. And not stupid players will run around with their mouse until they get a red target and then CC you till death or in the cases of those who have no CCs or not many (HR, TRs) They will put out a DOT via Thorn Ward, POTB. So it actually does have disadvantages. Once that 1 rotation is messed up your dead .
Sorry, ive played with a TR, just not much. That's why someone who knows(like you) could've put your 2 cents in. Im not saying that they aren't played with skill, you miss my intentions. Despite how annoying permastealth is to me, I understand that the rotations are tight and very precise, and even one mistake knocks you out of stealth and dead. Its just that the classes ive mentioned I HAVE played with in pvp more often, so know more about how their mechanics work in pvp. I have a POTB TR that im gearing up for pvp right now, in fact.
Thanks for your input.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Dont forget that now they are DESTROYER GWF's. Not Sentinel. and NO they are not as tanky as before, because they are not. I have a end game PVP GWF myself. I still die. quite often too.
they are not SENTINEL, they are Squishy. 3-4 duelist flurry's in continous rotation with a daily = gg.
IF any pvp GWF these days stands in a thorn ward, which keep in mind they have no choice, because guess what, WE HAVE NO DODGE MECHANIC.
We have to Stand on the POINT, which thorn ward completely consumes, so while we try to chase you around a fully RED point, which you use your 7 dodges as an HR and just kill GWF's.
Same with TR, a smart TR nowadays will use Baitn switch and have Accurate timing on duelist flurry's. and Dodge In directions that te GWF will not ASSUME you are. which means dont dodge straight behind, use your dodges wisely TR's.
GWF's are not OP. People just dont understand how to counter them. There is no arguing with this, There is a reason why 1v1 DUELS were not implemented as an option, because haveing a 3 encounter game requires many Varieties of Builds that can be used, Which generally means that NOT EVERY CLASS will be able to 1v1 ANYTHING.
Its all about your choice of play which is the standpoint for Neverwinter, You want to PVE? then you can only PVE
You want to PVP, then you can BUILD your characters for PVP.
LEarn MEchanics of every class before you make judgements. anyway can kill a "DESTROYER" Gwf. They are not Sentinel. Thank you.
Dev's Please look into every class before you make any decisions of what moves to make for next Mod. as maybe and ALL AROUND class balance, instead of just a GWF Balance. as TR's need Balancing, and Definitely HR's need balancing/fixes.
LOL, people are actually asking for a GWF nerf? and what can we say about CW? with that thunder attack that hits like 15k and they dont even need to get damage buffs with techniques to do that, I think they need a nerf as well!, what seems to me that is happening here, is that people are'nt noticing ppl's equipment, the classes are balanced, but have you even thought of checking out the armor/weapon enchantments? did you know there is something called perfect vorpal enchantment that increases crit severity by 50%, have you ever thought of the possibility that these GWFs you all faced HAD 15-16k gear score and you have 10k? you people only make blind statements, get good or get a life
This thread is about GWF and their ridiculous facerolling... CW are the 4th / 5th tier pvp class dude!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Dont forget that now they are DESTROYER GWF's. Not Sentinel. and NO they are not as tanky as before, because they are not. I have a end game PVP GWF myself. I still die. quite often too.
they are not SENTINEL, they are Squishy. 3-4 duelist flurry's in continous rotation with a daily = gg.
IF any pvp GWF these days stands in a thorn ward, which keep in mind they have no choice, because guess what, WE HAVE NO DODGE MECHANIC.
We have to Stand on the POINT, which thorn ward completely consumes, so while we try to chase you around a fully RED point, which you use your 7 dodges as an HR and just kill GWF's.
Same with TR, a smart TR nowadays will use Baitn switch and have Accurate timing on duelist flurry's. and Dodge In directions that te GWF will not ASSUME you are. which means dont dodge straight behind, use your dodges wisely TR's.
GWF's are not OP. People just dont understand how to counter them. There is no arguing with this, There is a reason why 1v1 DUELS were not implemented as an option, because haveing a 3 encounter game requires many Varieties of Builds that can be used, Which generally means that NOT EVERY CLASS will be able to 1v1 ANYTHING.
Its all about your choice of play which is the standpoint for Neverwinter, You want to PVE? then you can only PVE
You want to PVP, then you can BUILD your characters for PVP.
LEarn MEchanics of every class before you make judgements. anyway can kill a "DESTROYER" Gwf. They are not Sentinel. Thank you.
Dev's Please look into every class before you make any decisions of what moves to make for next Mod. as maybe and ALL AROUND class balance, instead of just a GWF Balance. as TR's need Balancing, and Definitely HR's need balancing/fixes.
Oh quit it with your "We don't have a dodge" Neither do GF our guard is down in seconds and we have no immunity, regen, healing, faster attack 50% less DR, 15% more damage button? GWF seemed fine before Unstoppable!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
1) Mobility or just undo the recent changes: GWF can run at a speed 110%.. they have no dodges so i agree that gwf need high speed mobility... BUT after some recent patches..... u cannot use mount for like 10 sec or so after the fight.. in mean time.. gwf at low health can easily run away and u cannot do anything about it..!! thats just sad
2) Prone: Prone is probably the best weapon of gwf.. EVERY gwf.. i mean EVERY gwf will try to prone u before attacking with their other encounters... i am not saying this is bad... but after u are hit by this Prone CC..u go like AFK for 5 sec.. (as a TR i cannot use ITC for i like 5 sec while proned) AND in this 5 sec.. they hit u with IBS and other encounters..( which pretty much bring u to near half health).. THIS is which i hate most of gwf... i mean.. its ok if u are proned.. but should be able to use ur CC immune ability to avoid further damage while Proned...
3) Unstoppable: To be honest i ve absolutely no prob with this Unstoppable thing... since GWF is Barbarian.. its Ok to have something like battle rage.. but he should not be immune to all CCs.. i mean just as HRs roots affects Unstoppable, CWs attack should also have a little effect on unstoppable..( since i am not a CW, cant comment more on that ).. as a TR, when ever a gwf pops unstoppable, i do which i think everyone should do.. RUN.. xD i mean i stay away from gwf.. as its waste to attack a gwf while hes in Unstoppable due to reduced incoming damage and Temp. HP.. BUT the PROB is.. whenever i run.. gwf catch up with me.. with his INSANE mobility.. and the prone me that 3 sec spamming of TAKEDOWN.. and if u go proned in front of gwf for like 5 sec... u pretty much end up dead... So what i am suggesting here that they should reduce his insane mobility while hes Unstoppable.. so that we can have decent chance of staying away from him while hes unstoppable...
Just my opinions..
NO OFFENSE INTENDED..
(since eng is not my main language so no RIP eng plzz)
The thing Id like to see fixed with GWFs is you should not be able to unstoppable OUT of CC. If you are already IN CC it should hold you in it until the duration is over THEN unstoppable can be popped and your immune.
This would give Unstoppable a pretty fair balance. With Roar nerf incoming along with Unstoppable Recovery incoming too, this would make Destroyer GWFs alot more squishy and Sentinels right inline with alot of classes....
This really would affect CWs the most and improve their QOL without REALLY affecting GWfs too much.
This would also make Elven Enchant a little more worth it for GWFs... Just saying...
The thing Id like to see fixed with GWFs is you should not be able to unstoppable OUT of CC. If you are already IN CC it should hold you in it until the duration is over THEN unstoppable can be popped and your immune.
This would give Unstoppable a pretty fair balance. With Roar nerf incoming along with Unstoppable Recovery incoming too, this would make Destroyer GWFs alot more squishy and Sentinels right inline with alot of classes....
This really would affect CWs the most and improve their QOL without REALLY affecting GWfs too much.
This would also make Elven Enchant a little more worth it for GWFs... Just saying...
if u would not break out of CC by using unsto 2 CW would probly CC u to death in a matter of seconds,remember GWF is class w,o dodge
I keep reading this, as an excuse that GWF NEED unstoppable? Even if GWF didn't have unstoppable they would still be in the top 3 classes!
GF don't have dodge either? Our shield takes what 3 hits and a dot tick and its gone! We don't have an unstoppable...
y lets remove unsto from a class w,o dodge
SO LOGIC.
about GF i dont know, maybe lets remove the guard metter, let it block infinite dmg , give them maybe 1-2 dodges?also some more feats on mark would be great like extra dmg, like 20% incoming healing bonus feat would be great also maybe class feature HR alike aspect of lonewolf so they can atlast hold node
they are not SENTINEL, they are Squishy. 3-4 duelist flurry's in continous rotation with a daily = gg.
You do know that if you move 1 foot you can avoid duelist's flurry, right? You don't have to stand there and take 4 duelist's flurries in a row and then a daily. LOL.
I mean, yeah, I guess GWF can be squishy if they're played by a really horrible player.
p.s. Rogues are CC-immune during the flurry part, so don't try to prone them then. You should be able to Roar them out of it though (even after Roar is fixed- it will still be an interupt).
I know it's counterintuitive to use strategy when playing a GWF, but it can be done.
Only problem I see with GWF is Roar and imbalanced Itemization.
Destroyers really are significantly more squishy than old-school Sentinels. Destroyers kill fast and die fast, and landing a full rotation is quite difficult against a competent opponent. However, this fact has not been realized because Roar is currently broken and allows the Destroyer to to land his full rotation almost guaranteed. I truly believe that once Roar is fixed, people will see that with good dodge timing GWFs damage can be easily (or at least skillfully) avoided and further, without their Sentinel defenses to fall back on, Destroyers can be burned down with only 2 or even 1 chance for Unstoppable. I truly believe that the Roar fix will work wonders for balancing this class.
You have to realize that its not just the brokeness of Roar that is overpowered but what the brokeness allows a GWF to get away with that snowballs into what seems like a class that is broken all around when in reality it is really just this one power. This is precisely why so many GWFs feel the need to defend some of the more ridiculous suggestions people are making that would (when combined with an imminent Roar fix) seriously hinder their class. I know some people would like to see the GWF fall all the way to the bottom of the totem pole of balance as some kind of justice or karma for being so OP at the moment, but thats really not what balance discussions should be about.
Itemization is another thing that should be looked at. In my opinion, GWF gear is simply better than the gear that is offered to other classes. The stats GWF get from gear synergize so well with GWF natural stats that it allows specs like Destroyer to get tanky and specs like Sentinel to get damagey. In the same respect, classes like GF and CW get, in my opinion, the complete opposite of this. Crappy gear that forces them into over-stacking stats, breaking hardcaps, and being forced to take stats they don't want. Itemization plays a HUGE role in balance but its so rarely talked about because people would rather talk about nerfing/buffing certain abilities/spells/feats when the latter always just leads to more imbalance.
Let the Roar fix set in. Advocate for better and more balanced Itemization balance for each of the classes. Please, do not touch GWF mechanics, it is certain to have terrible impacts on PvE and will likely solve very little in the way of PvP balance.
Edit: Just wanted to add that GPF should be looked at as well. Theres no way its interacting with Destroyers Purpose in an intended fashion. Its no coincidence that the two FOTM builds are using GPF for the sole purpose of stacking DoTs.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
You do know that if you move 1 foot you can avoid duelist's flurry, right? You don't have to stand there and take 4 duelist's flurries in a row and then a daily. LOL.
I mean, yeah, I guess GWF can be squishy if they're played by a really horrible player.
p.s. Rogues are CC-immune during the flurry part, so don't try to prone them then. You should be able to Roar them out of it though (even after Roar is fixed- it will still be an interupt).
I know it's counterintuitive to use strategy when playing a GWF, but it can be done.
Believe me , I know how to dodge DF, If you Jump cast Any skilled TR should be able to land every single DF, unless of course they suck, and the GWF is not standing on point.
O and yes a GWF has to stand on point, and is impossible to avoid a thorn ward casted on the point, since of course the Thorn ward Range is WAY TOO BIG, so it covers up the entire point.
any good HR should beat any GWF no matter what gear.
and Yes DESTROYER builds are super squishy and can go down in a single rotation if proned/stunned correctly.
Let the Roar fix set in. Advocate for better and more balanced Itemization balance for each of the classes. Please, do not touch GWF mechanics, it is certain to have terrible impacts on PvE and will likely solve very little in the way of PvP balance.
You sir, are one of the smartest people on these forums. Not only the Roar bug, but also the fact that Unstoppable Recovery has not been hindered by HD as of yet (maybe this went in with last patch).
Roar is really broken right now, like REALLY broken and once it gets fixed, I think youll see alot of people return to FLS which is on a much longer CD as well as GWFs being much more easily to avoid damage.
I take back what I said about Unstop OUT of CC, because I forgot about the Roar fix. Fix Roar and GWF will be fairly inline.
I wish that was true Kolevra :-). With stacking of defence/hp and regg combined with high power(as you mentioned that is possible due to better gear then other classes) and artifact they dont die fast at all. They have better survivabilty then other classes, yes even then hrs due to being able to pop unstop when focused, and more burst dam more prone ccs etc. So no they kill fast and die slow and that is the major issue here saying otherwise is what I oppose without speaking for a nerf of gwfs(yea roar has to go).
any good HR should beat any GWF no matter what gear.
Another great reflection of a truly pro who knows that in this game gear dont matter so much its pure skill based with little impact by the gear/enchants........
You dazzle me with your great insights its always good to find out that some stands above the rest and find new things due to their inventive ways, truly amazing what we can learn from real pro pvpers like you .....
You sir, are one of the smartest people on these forums. Not only the Roar bug, but also the fact that Unstoppable Recovery has not been hindered by HD as of yet (maybe this went in with last patch).
Roar is really broken right now, like REALLY broken and once it gets fixed, I think youll see alot of people return to FLS which is on a much longer CD as well as GWFs being much more easily to avoid damage.
I take back what I said about Unstop OUT of CC, because I forgot about the Roar fix. Fix Roar and GWF will be fairly inline.
No it won't.
Fix Roar and it simply brings us back to square one - the game's heaviest hitting, toughest bad-a$$ which also happens to be the best CC-ing and fastest moving.
Its either the class remains the heaviest hitting toughest bad <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, or becomes the best CC-ing and fastest moving. You shouldn't have both. No class should.
This "Roar pandemic" is simply an exaggerated form of what the GWF already is. Switch out Roar for FSL and what? Yes, the CC rotation comes a little slower but that don't change out the fact the class is riddled with multiple prones which some hit from range + AoE. It don't change how an encounter uses execution mechanics and potentially hits for daily-level damage, nor does it change the bullshi* slow-ignoring sprint, nor does squat about the crapshi* Threatening Rush. And yes, ofcourse, the back-to-back Unstoppable.
Roar is simply a piece of straw that broke the donkey's back. The donkey was already insanely loaded up. Unless that load is off, there is no GWF which is "in line". There are only GWF players which would like the rest of the PvP community to think so. "Uhhhh.. here, the crapshi* broken AoE interrupt+daze+root is now fixed... so everything's cool, right?"
Wrong.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You sir, are one of the smartest people on these forums. Not only the Roar bug, but also the fact that Unstoppable Recovery has not been hindered by HD as of yet (maybe this went in with last patch).
Roar is really broken right now, like REALLY broken and once it gets fixed, I think youll see alot of people return to FLS which is on a much longer CD as well as GWFs being much more easily to avoid damage.
I take back what I said about Unstop OUT of CC, because I forgot about the Roar fix. Fix Roar and GWF will be fairly inline.
will not because of iv. gwf dont need fly. gwf not need to prone chain. he needs hit like a mule and be tough as well ... something tough.
say gwf will be "ok" is say iv will be "ok". sm (or future kensei and others) will lose a resource that will influence pve.
how to bring a nerf to iv is bringing a nerf for the gf, who is on the "matrix" of gwf. roar is just a simbol (or start).
^ That's pretty ridiculous. If they didn't have unstop and were not given anything to replace it, they would certainly be ruined.
They would be ruined, yes, without the:
■ highest damage
■ highest defense
■ fastest in-game combat mobility that ignores slows
■ most powerful CC types(prones), recharges fastest in game as well
■ spammable gap-closers
So if a GWF without a 25~50% damage reduction + total CC immunity that activates almost constantly back-to-back, is "ruined", what does that say about the other classes which doesn't have even half of the total number of goodies mentioned above?
...but I agree. Let the GWFs keep their Unstoppable.
Take away the rest. They certainly don't need it.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I'm not saying that the Roar fix will make everything balanced. I'm saying that the Roar fix will put balance in a position where BUFFING other classes would become a better option than NERFING the GWF.
For whatever reason, people are having a hard time grasping the reality that taking away Unstoppable is not only a ridiculous idea, its also one that is never ever going to happen. Think about it, its the GWF class mechanic. For better or worse, it is here to stay, the sooner people accept that the sooner you can move on to more throroughly examining the class and trying to identify the real problems contributing to imbalances. Its not Unstoppable.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Believe me , I know how to dodge DF, If you Jump cast Any skilled TR should be able to land every single DF, unless of course they suck, and the GWF is not standing on point.
O and yes a GWF has to stand on point, and is impossible to avoid a thorn ward casted on the point, since of course the Thorn ward Range is WAY TOO BIG, so it covers up the entire point.
any good HR should beat any GWF no matter what gear.
and Yes DESTROYER builds are super squishy and can go down in a single rotation if proned/stunned correctly.
HR's and TR's should be able to beat any GWF 1v1.
You should be able to avoid at least a couple. Even if you can't though, why not just burp in their face with roar and then prone them?
I've only met one rogue that could reliably land DS on me if I'm moving around and predicting where he is, even with messed up jump casting.
Mainly though the problem with comparing HR/TR OPness to GWF OPness is HR and TR are very good in 1v1 on a side cap. GWF is good everywhere. That's the real reason troll comps stack them. They don't need the artificial compulsion of a node to make someone stand somewhere to kill them.
In any situation at all, GWF is about as good or the best class for the job.
- 1v1 on a node, GWF is great. HR and TR can kill them sometimes, all other classes fall.
- group play, GWF is the best. No class can lock down classes as good as a GWF, put out as much damage as fast as a GWF, or absorb as much damage as a GWF. The only thing a GWF can't do better than everyone else is heal other people.
It seems like some of you won't consider GWFs OP unless they are hands down the absolute best at every possible scenario and no classes could ever beat them 1v1.
I had a single GWF totally dominate a game today, killing everyone at side caps solo and everyone at the middle with her team, running at mach 10 in between points. No TR or HR could do that.
I might've been able to put up a fight but I was either caught by Roar or rubberbanded back to take a takedown after dodging it correctly (HR dodge is really finicky at best) and one rotation took half my health at least. I even died once to threatening rush lol, the freaking gap closer.
People can argue all they want but when almost every game is being won or lost based on how many GWFs you have, and GWFs are running around killing everyone with very little resistance, it falls on deaf ears, and it's not going to change just because Roar is fixed.
You honestly just have to play the game to see it.
Comments
The only difference is a CW needed time to set up his damage as it was in small / medium chunks until he hit you with the big damage! GWF are immune to CC, sprint, heal, and get faster attack speed while they deal MASSIVE chunks of damage all at the same time.
If GWF needed to set up the big damage then they would be fine, but they hit for crazy damage from the first hit til your dead!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Qued Domination thaqt would be great, Open world its always handful of ( x-y-z classes vs a zone of GWFS! )
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Oh, not disagreeing how it is NOW. Just telling that tool off because I was explaining how it was BACK THEN. Because their cc ruled the streets at the time(remember: GWF is actually better than he used to be!) they had nothing much to worry about. They had cc, they had burst damage, they had better cooldowns on their abilities(combination of best recovery + encounters like takedown weren't as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> back then, remember?).
Like I said, not saying that's how it is now. Just that he forgets how it was back then.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?252222-Everyone-complaining-about-imbalances-in-pvp-as-well-as-the-DEVS&highlight=control+wizard+beta
Also, another debater on pvp discussions in the past...
"As pointed out Guardian Fighter (Even if you spec for pure defense) can die in a matter of 5 seconds to a TR, the Guard Meter is easy to drop in PvP then the TR will proceed to 2~3 shot the so called 'tank' and let us not forget! a TR can stop a GF from even blocking in the 1st place, so no need to drain the guard meter, but as you say.. no reason to complain. CW can kill this 'tank' just as quickly while CCing and lets not forget the ridiculous range.
A team with a cleric vs a team without a cleric (equal skill) the team with it is going to win, obviously balanced according to you.
GWF- Attacks are slower and easy to cancel by other classes which leads it to doing no damage. People saying they are fine are just creating instances where a GWF will perform well, but will that scenario ever become a reality in lvl 60 PvP? No.
If you've ever played enough by now you'll know CW, TR, and DC are the dominant classes in PvP, and a major issue is that sustain is too strong in PvP (team with cleric is pretty much going to win assuming they don't fail), and the damage is way too high while defense being nearly useless, as pointed out by many 1htkos are possible and even if it isn't a 1htko people are simply being 2~3 shotted/instagibbed by TRs and CWs, and cool downs in PvP given their current power is all relatively short.
Now, you may enjoy the whole 1~4 shot (or the kill your opponent in 2~5 seconds) but many people do not. If you've played enough MMOs with PvP you would know by now people who wish to PvP like fights that last a reasonable time, not too short or too long, there has to be a balance in power/defense, no reason any class should kill another by simply mashing buttons faster. Then the simple fact it's possible to balance PvP without it even impacting PvE".
^P.S. don't know how to quote someone this far back, but its a person in the same thread I listed. People forget how much this game has changed since beta.
I agree, before Tenacity I too rolled a CW see my signature for his name....
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I got ya. All I was pointing out, and have seen other past posters/threads agree, was that CWs were quite the cat's pajamas in the past in pvp. Now=not so much. Its flipped from a gwf being useless to being top, and cw from being greatest, to only holding pve status now.
Thats hilarious! Now though...
CW ~ has lost their control
GF ~ Defense means pretty much nothing as we are killed in less time then classes that can dodge
DC ~ They cannot keep themselves healed!
HR ~ Can do what a GF should be able to, but without dieing and healing themselves to full over and over.
GWF ~ Can literally run in kill 3 people, run out and grab another node before we even rez and mount up!
TR ~ Are decent unless they roll Perma lame spec, but can choose to fight or just run away heal and restart at their leisure.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Like I said, don't disagree with this! The statement I showed would be bs false now, wouldn't it? but back then... this was viable pvp gameplay.
P.S. I was quoting a poster in THAT thread, just too tired/unknowledgeable to post it in quote form.
Ill tell you a correlation with how they act now versus why they got nerfed though...
CW=too much control/burst damage
DC=healing used to be great/stacked DCs made people immortal
HR=roots and some of their control damage got nerfed, because they were basically an anti GWF class
GWF=used to tank quite a bit, but died to CW burst damage too often(now theyre the best!)
GF=Actually always been screwed lol
TR=their burst damage got nerfed to heck, and that's why more go for survivability(permastealth) now.
Actually you have never played a TR I can kind of tell. TRs mechanic is the hardest to pop and the hardest to stay in to (if facing a good opponent) For example. It's the exact opposite of unstoppable, because unstoppable pops whenever you take damage but stealth pops when you take no damage or use an encounter. And not stupid players will run around with their mouse until they get a red target and then CC you till death or in the cases of those who have no CCs or not many (HR, TRs) They will put out a DOT via Thorn Ward, POTB. So it actually does have disadvantages. Once that 1 rotation is messed up your dead
Sorry, ive played with a TR, just not much. That's why someone who knows(like you) could've put your 2 cents in. Im not saying that they aren't played with skill, you miss my intentions. Despite how annoying permastealth is to me, I understand that the rotations are tight and very precise, and even one mistake knocks you out of stealth and dead. Its just that the classes ive mentioned I HAVE played with in pvp more often, so know more about how their mechanics work in pvp. I have a POTB TR that im gearing up for pvp right now, in fact.
Thanks for your input.
they are not SENTINEL, they are Squishy. 3-4 duelist flurry's in continous rotation with a daily = gg.
IF any pvp GWF these days stands in a thorn ward, which keep in mind they have no choice, because guess what, WE HAVE NO DODGE MECHANIC.
We have to Stand on the POINT, which thorn ward completely consumes, so while we try to chase you around a fully RED point, which you use your 7 dodges as an HR and just kill GWF's.
Same with TR, a smart TR nowadays will use Baitn switch and have Accurate timing on duelist flurry's. and Dodge In directions that te GWF will not ASSUME you are. which means dont dodge straight behind, use your dodges wisely TR's.
GWF's are not OP. People just dont understand how to counter them. There is no arguing with this, There is a reason why 1v1 DUELS were not implemented as an option, because haveing a 3 encounter game requires many Varieties of Builds that can be used, Which generally means that NOT EVERY CLASS will be able to 1v1 ANYTHING.
Its all about your choice of play which is the standpoint for Neverwinter, You want to PVE? then you can only PVE
You want to PVP, then you can BUILD your characters for PVP.
LEarn MEchanics of every class before you make judgements. anyway can kill a "DESTROYER" Gwf. They are not Sentinel. Thank you.
Dev's Please look into every class before you make any decisions of what moves to make for next Mod. as maybe and ALL AROUND class balance, instead of just a GWF Balance. as TR's need Balancing, and Definitely HR's need balancing/fixes.
This thread is about GWF and their ridiculous facerolling... CW are the 4th / 5th tier pvp class dude!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Oh quit it with your "We don't have a dodge" Neither do GF our guard is down in seconds and we have no immunity, regen, healing, faster attack 50% less DR, 15% more damage button? GWF seemed fine before Unstoppable!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
1) Mobility or just undo the recent changes: GWF can run at a speed 110%.. they have no dodges so i agree that gwf need high speed mobility... BUT after some recent patches..... u cannot use mount for like 10 sec or so after the fight.. in mean time.. gwf at low health can easily run away and u cannot do anything about it..!! thats just sad
2) Prone: Prone is probably the best weapon of gwf.. EVERY gwf.. i mean EVERY gwf will try to prone u before attacking with their other encounters... i am not saying this is bad... but after u are hit by this Prone CC..u go like AFK for 5 sec.. (as a TR i cannot use ITC for i like 5 sec while proned) AND in this 5 sec.. they hit u with IBS and other encounters..( which pretty much bring u to near half health).. THIS is which i hate most of gwf... i mean.. its ok if u are proned.. but should be able to use ur CC immune ability to avoid further damage while Proned...
3) Unstoppable: To be honest i ve absolutely no prob with this Unstoppable thing... since GWF is Barbarian.. its Ok to have something like battle rage.. but he should not be immune to all CCs.. i mean just as HRs roots affects Unstoppable, CWs attack should also have a little effect on unstoppable..( since i am not a CW, cant comment more on that ).. as a TR, when ever a gwf pops unstoppable, i do which i think everyone should do.. RUN.. xD i mean i stay away from gwf.. as its waste to attack a gwf while hes in Unstoppable due to reduced incoming damage and Temp. HP.. BUT the PROB is.. whenever i run.. gwf catch up with me.. with his INSANE mobility.. and the prone me that 3 sec spamming of TAKEDOWN.. and if u go proned in front of gwf for like 5 sec... u pretty much end up dead... So what i am suggesting here that they should reduce his insane mobility while hes Unstoppable.. so that we can have decent chance of staying away from him while hes unstoppable...
Just my opinions..
NO OFFENSE INTENDED..
(since eng is not my main language so no RIP eng plzz)
This would give Unstoppable a pretty fair balance. With Roar nerf incoming along with Unstoppable Recovery incoming too, this would make Destroyer GWFs alot more squishy and Sentinels right inline with alot of classes....
This really would affect CWs the most and improve their QOL without REALLY affecting GWfs too much.
This would also make Elven Enchant a little more worth it for GWFs... Just saying...
I keep reading this, as an excuse that GWF NEED unstoppable? Even if GWF didn't have unstoppable they would still be in the top 3 classes!
GF don't have dodge either? Our shield takes what 3 hits and a dot tick and its gone! We don't have an unstoppable...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
y lets remove unsto from a class w,o dodge
SO LOGIC.
about GF i dont know, maybe lets remove the guard metter, let it block infinite dmg , give them maybe 1-2 dodges?also some more feats on mark would be great like extra dmg, like 20% incoming healing bonus feat would be great also maybe class feature HR alike aspect of lonewolf so they can atlast hold node
You do know that if you move 1 foot you can avoid duelist's flurry, right? You don't have to stand there and take 4 duelist's flurries in a row and then a daily. LOL.
I mean, yeah, I guess GWF can be squishy if they're played by a really horrible player.
p.s. Rogues are CC-immune during the flurry part, so don't try to prone them then. You should be able to Roar them out of it though (even after Roar is fixed- it will still be an interupt).
I know it's counterintuitive to use strategy when playing a GWF, but it can be done.
Destroyers really are significantly more squishy than old-school Sentinels. Destroyers kill fast and die fast, and landing a full rotation is quite difficult against a competent opponent. However, this fact has not been realized because Roar is currently broken and allows the Destroyer to to land his full rotation almost guaranteed. I truly believe that once Roar is fixed, people will see that with good dodge timing GWFs damage can be easily (or at least skillfully) avoided and further, without their Sentinel defenses to fall back on, Destroyers can be burned down with only 2 or even 1 chance for Unstoppable. I truly believe that the Roar fix will work wonders for balancing this class.
You have to realize that its not just the brokeness of Roar that is overpowered but what the brokeness allows a GWF to get away with that snowballs into what seems like a class that is broken all around when in reality it is really just this one power. This is precisely why so many GWFs feel the need to defend some of the more ridiculous suggestions people are making that would (when combined with an imminent Roar fix) seriously hinder their class. I know some people would like to see the GWF fall all the way to the bottom of the totem pole of balance as some kind of justice or karma for being so OP at the moment, but thats really not what balance discussions should be about.
Itemization is another thing that should be looked at. In my opinion, GWF gear is simply better than the gear that is offered to other classes. The stats GWF get from gear synergize so well with GWF natural stats that it allows specs like Destroyer to get tanky and specs like Sentinel to get damagey. In the same respect, classes like GF and CW get, in my opinion, the complete opposite of this. Crappy gear that forces them into over-stacking stats, breaking hardcaps, and being forced to take stats they don't want. Itemization plays a HUGE role in balance but its so rarely talked about because people would rather talk about nerfing/buffing certain abilities/spells/feats when the latter always just leads to more imbalance.
Let the Roar fix set in. Advocate for better and more balanced Itemization balance for each of the classes. Please, do not touch GWF mechanics, it is certain to have terrible impacts on PvE and will likely solve very little in the way of PvP balance.
Edit: Just wanted to add that GPF should be looked at as well. Theres no way its interacting with Destroyers Purpose in an intended fashion. Its no coincidence that the two FOTM builds are using GPF for the sole purpose of stacking DoTs.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Believe me , I know how to dodge DF, If you Jump cast Any skilled TR should be able to land every single DF, unless of course they suck, and the GWF is not standing on point.
O and yes a GWF has to stand on point, and is impossible to avoid a thorn ward casted on the point, since of course the Thorn ward Range is WAY TOO BIG, so it covers up the entire point.
any good HR should beat any GWF no matter what gear.
and Yes DESTROYER builds are super squishy and can go down in a single rotation if proned/stunned correctly.
HR's and TR's should be able to beat any GWF 1v1.
You sir, are one of the smartest people on these forums. Not only the Roar bug, but also the fact that Unstoppable Recovery has not been hindered by HD as of yet (maybe this went in with last patch).
Roar is really broken right now, like REALLY broken and once it gets fixed, I think youll see alot of people return to FLS which is on a much longer CD as well as GWFs being much more easily to avoid damage.
I take back what I said about Unstop OUT of CC, because I forgot about the Roar fix. Fix Roar and GWF will be fairly inline.
Another great reflection of a truly pro who knows that in this game gear dont matter so much its pure skill based with little impact by the gear/enchants........
You dazzle me with your great insights its always good to find out that some stands above the rest and find new things due to their inventive ways, truly amazing what we can learn from real pro pvpers like you .....
No it won't.
Fix Roar and it simply brings us back to square one - the game's heaviest hitting, toughest bad-a$$ which also happens to be the best CC-ing and fastest moving.
Its either the class remains the heaviest hitting toughest bad <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, or becomes the best CC-ing and fastest moving. You shouldn't have both. No class should.
This "Roar pandemic" is simply an exaggerated form of what the GWF already is. Switch out Roar for FSL and what? Yes, the CC rotation comes a little slower but that don't change out the fact the class is riddled with multiple prones which some hit from range + AoE. It don't change how an encounter uses execution mechanics and potentially hits for daily-level damage, nor does it change the bullshi* slow-ignoring sprint, nor does squat about the crapshi* Threatening Rush. And yes, ofcourse, the back-to-back Unstoppable.
Roar is simply a piece of straw that broke the donkey's back. The donkey was already insanely loaded up. Unless that load is off, there is no GWF which is "in line". There are only GWF players which would like the rest of the PvP community to think so. "Uhhhh.. here, the crapshi* broken AoE interrupt+daze+root is now fixed... so everything's cool, right?"
Wrong.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
will not because of iv. gwf dont need fly. gwf not need to prone chain. he needs hit like a mule and be tough as well ... something tough.
say gwf will be "ok" is say iv will be "ok". sm (or future kensei and others) will lose a resource that will influence pve.
how to bring a nerf to iv is bringing a nerf for the gf, who is on the "matrix" of gwf. roar is just a simbol (or start).
^ That's pretty ridiculous. If they didn't have unstop and were not given anything to replace it, they would certainly be ruined.
They would be ruined, yes, without the:
■ highest damage
■ highest defense
■ fastest in-game combat mobility that ignores slows
■ most powerful CC types(prones), recharges fastest in game as well
■ spammable gap-closers
So if a GWF without a 25~50% damage reduction + total CC immunity that activates almost constantly back-to-back, is "ruined", what does that say about the other classes which doesn't have even half of the total number of goodies mentioned above?
...but I agree. Let the GWFs keep their Unstoppable.
Take away the rest. They certainly don't need it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
For whatever reason, people are having a hard time grasping the reality that taking away Unstoppable is not only a ridiculous idea, its also one that is never ever going to happen. Think about it, its the GWF class mechanic. For better or worse, it is here to stay, the sooner people accept that the sooner you can move on to more throroughly examining the class and trying to identify the real problems contributing to imbalances. Its not Unstoppable.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
You should be able to avoid at least a couple. Even if you can't though, why not just burp in their face with roar and then prone them?
I've only met one rogue that could reliably land DS on me if I'm moving around and predicting where he is, even with messed up jump casting.
Mainly though the problem with comparing HR/TR OPness to GWF OPness is HR and TR are very good in 1v1 on a side cap. GWF is good everywhere. That's the real reason troll comps stack them. They don't need the artificial compulsion of a node to make someone stand somewhere to kill them.
In any situation at all, GWF is about as good or the best class for the job.
- 1v1 on a node, GWF is great. HR and TR can kill them sometimes, all other classes fall.
- group play, GWF is the best. No class can lock down classes as good as a GWF, put out as much damage as fast as a GWF, or absorb as much damage as a GWF. The only thing a GWF can't do better than everyone else is heal other people.
It seems like some of you won't consider GWFs OP unless they are hands down the absolute best at every possible scenario and no classes could ever beat them 1v1.
I had a single GWF totally dominate a game today, killing everyone at side caps solo and everyone at the middle with her team, running at mach 10 in between points. No TR or HR could do that.
I might've been able to put up a fight but I was either caught by Roar or rubberbanded back to take a takedown after dodging it correctly (HR dodge is really finicky at best) and one rotation took half my health at least. I even died once to threatening rush lol, the freaking gap closer.
People can argue all they want but when almost every game is being won or lost based on how many GWFs you have, and GWFs are running around killing everyone with very little resistance, it falls on deaf ears, and it's not going to change just because Roar is fixed.
You honestly just have to play the game to see it.