All of this is just wrong which is exactly what I mean when I said you can't really get mad at me for assuming you don't know what you're doing.
I don't mind being in the minority because I have a feeling most of the HR in this thread who are QQing are equally ignorant to their class as you seem to be. If 11 people tell you that you are healthy and 1 doctor tells you that you aren't , who are you going to listen to?
Keep suggesting GWF nerfs and I will keep explaining to people why its a bad idea. Maybe if all of these QQers ganging up on me were GFs or CWs they would be capable of making some good points. The fact that so many HRs don't realize that their class is just as good as the GWF just goes to show that they don't know what they're talking about and that their suggestions are biased, rage-based, and uninformed and further proves that GWF doesn't need a nerf.
And this is the esential problem with your position. I'm going to make up some rough numbers because Cryptic is, well, cryptic about player demographics. Let be generous and say that 60% the player base is PVE focussed. Really generous considering that 90% of the content is PVE. Now when you say "doctor" in reference to yourself I assume your credentials are that you are a hard-core PVP player. What would that be the top 10% or so? Just as a rough figure. 10% of 40% is 4% So when you are giving your opinion of what 'ballance' means in NWO you are giving what it means to 1 in 25 players (being generous). Which is where I need to break the bad news to you. You are assuming what is ballance for an extreme minority of the players. And like most MMOs the hardcore PVPers are the most rabid and loudest minority. This dynamic is not specific to NWO but something you run into in most MMOs out there. In high end play the level of skill changes the ballance. In casual of even mid-range PVP the GWF is over dominant because the skill threshold to get there is lower. Which is why most people will always disagree with you. So basically if your 'credentials' as a 'doctor' are that you are in the top tenth of PVP play your not even describing the same game everyone else is playing. Or even wants to. ANd I have certainly lived through enough games that simply dies out because the changes were made according to what the 'doctor' had ordered.
Edit: Something I should add here specifically about the HR. It was the newest shiniest toy and half the server population made alts of that class. For various reasons they were not popular in PVE. Which means that an awful lot of HRs are now PVP-only toons played by someone grinding AD on something else. This really, really, really distorts the curve on what sorts of HRs you will run into if you have a decent ELO rating.
unbah, please show me a video of a GWF 2 or 3-shotting an equally-geared and skilled opponent. It's just not happening! GWF balance is way over-exaggerated because of false comments like this.
marnival, yes 5 GWFs together seem to get more powerful exponentially, probably because 1 prone chain can turn into 5 prone chains if the GWFs time it properly. This is also true of HRs though, throwing down 3 thorn wards on a cap basically makes it impossible to contest for example. Should we nerf thorn ward because of this? No! Should we nerf prones? No! What we should do is force PvP groups to go rainbow. These 5 man GWF groups should be ashamed of themselves honestly, they are another reason why GWF balance is getting so exaggerated.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
unbah, please show me a video of a GWF 2 or 3-shotting an equally-geared and skilled opponent. It's just not happening! GWF balance is way over-exaggerated because of false comments like this.
marnival, yes 5 GWFs together seem to get more powerful exponentially, probably because 1 prone chain can turn into 5 prone chains if the GWFs time it properly. This is also true of HRs though, throwing down 3 thorn wards on a cap basically makes it impossible to contest for example. Should we nerf thorn ward because of this? No! Should we nerf prones? No! What we should do is force PvP groups to go rainbow. These 5 man GWF groups should be ashamed of themselves honestly, they are another reason why GWF balance is getting so exaggerated.
You realize this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If someone finds the video then obviously the HRs were not 'skilled'. Of course every video of a HR beating a GWF they were both 'equally skilled'. It is miraculous how many people's 'skill' lead them to playing this one class.......
And this is the esential problem with your position. I'm going to make up some rough numbers because Cryptic is, well, cryptic about player demographics. Let be generous and say that 60% the player base is PVE focussed. Really generous considering that 90% of the content is PVE. Now when you say "doctor" in reference to yourself I assume your credentials are that you are a hard-core PVP player. What would that be the top 10% or so? Just as a rough figure. 10% of 40% is 4% So when you are giving your opinion of what 'ballance' means in NWO you are giving what it means to 1 in 25 players (being generous). Which is where I need to break the bad news to you. You are assuming what is ballance for an extreme minority of the players. And like most MMOs the hardcore PVPers are the most rabid and loudest minority. This dynamic is not specific to NWO but something you run into in most MMOs out there. In high end play the level of skill changes the ballance. In casual of even mid-range PVP the GWF is over dominant because the skill threshold to get there is lower. Which is why most people will always disagree with you. So basically if your 'credentials' as a 'doctor' are that you are in the top tenth of PVP play your not even describing the same game everyone else is playing. Or even wants to. ANd I have certainly lived through enough games that simply dies out because the changes were made according to what the 'doctor' had ordered.
Edit: Something I should add here specifically about the HR. It was the newest shiniest toy and half the server population made alts of that class. For various reasons they were not popular in PVE. Which means that an awful lot of HRs are now PVP-only toons played by someone grinding AD on something else. This really, really, really distorts the curve on what sorts of HRs you will run into if you have a decent ELO rating.
Wait what? I've said already that one of the main reasons why nerfs are unwelcomed are because it affects PVE. I'm with you on this one and I'm kind of confused as to where you thought I said otherwise.
Also, I wasn't referring to myself as the "doctor". It was simply a metaphor to convey the idea that just because 11 out of 12 people believe something is true doesn't make it true nor does it make it more likely to be true. I would like to believe that any who actually bothers to talk balance is "doctor" in the sense that they at least have some solid experience with the game.
Also, nice cryptic pun
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Wait what? I've said already that one of the main reasons why nerfs are unwelcomed are because it affects PVE. I'm with you on this one and I'm kind of confused as to where you thought I said otherwise.
Also, I wasn't referring to myself as the "doctor". It was simply a metaphor to convey the idea that just because 11 out of 12 people believe something is true doesn't make it true nor does it make it more likely to be true. I would like to believe that any who actually bothers to talk balance is "doctor" in the sense that they at least have some solid experience with the game.
Also, nice cryptic pun
Whcih was my overall point. A game is alot more democratic than reality. When 11 out of 12s players experience is a different one than your own, in a game, they are right.
And I must add for the GWF it is even worse because their class is also dominant in PVE. Trust me if people were getting pwned on the regular by CWs in PVP the rage would be immense......
I'd take that bet. With any kind of focus at all the GWFs would chain-prone the HRs to death one by one while impervious to CC in Unstoppable.
But listen, dude. You need to stop comparing HRs to GWFs. When the set bonus gets nerfed it's not even going to be a contest. Some of these BIS HRs are getting like 40k healing in a 1v1 vs. you just from the set-bonus. What do you think they'll be like without that?
My vision of it would be HRs kiting Unstoppable GWFs through double stacked thorn wards on every cap, stacking GPF and DoTs like mad and melting through any OP damage resist people tihnk Destroyers have in no time, all while healing themselves absurdly fast. Would be a fun bet I think.
The reason why HRs keep coming up is because for whatever reason its the class that keeps calling for nerfs the most often even though they are doing just fine. If TRs were whining I'd call them out too. I just cant stand hypocrisy I guess. I'm sure if a bunch of GWF went into a nerf HR thread and advocated for such ridiculous changes the point of comparing would be brought up as well.
As for the future of HRs that remains to be seen. It really depends how the devs handle the set bonus fix I suppose, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes either way. Going to be harder to survive several GWF rotations like they can now, but without Roar theyll certainly have an easier time kiting GWFs. And as far as every other class I'm sure HR will still be melting CWs and GFs with no chance of dying and theyll still be picking off perma-rogues just fine.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Whcih was my overall point. A game is alot more democratic than reality. When 11 out of 12s players experience is a different one than your own, in a game, they are right.
So if I find any 11 players in the game who think that GWF need a buff then they are right?
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
And of course if you are a HR and have been nerfed to 'ballance PVP' and crippled even further in PVE you're going to be really offended when someone says you are OP. Especially in defense of the GWF.....
So if I find any 11 players in the game who think that GWF need a buff then they are right?
You at least need to seriously question why your experience of the game is so incredibly deviant from everyone else. I certainly would not jump to the conclusion that my experience was simply the 'right' way to play and therefor they should learn to play the game I like. I realize that the GWF was underpowered. But the buff was overboard. By a lot. Likely why after everyone and their uncle made a HR alt they made a GWF alt. Personally I like challenge in my games so I generally avoid the overpowered class. I built my GWF mostly to figure out how they worked. I kept it because it is really easy to farm epics when I don't have friends online because you can just pug it out. But really I play my GF more than my GWF becasue it is fun. Kessell in a GF is freaking awesome. On a GWF it is just another instance.....
My vision of it would be HRs kiting Unstoppable GWFs through double stacked thorn wards on every cap, stacking GPF and DoTs like mad and melting through any OP damage resist people tihnk Destroyers have in no time, all while healing themselves absurdly fast. Would be a fun bet I think.
The reason why HRs keep coming up is because for whatever reason its the class that keeps calling for nerfs the most often even though they are doing just fine. If TRs were whining I'd call them out too. I just cant stand hypocrisy I guess. I'm sure if a bunch of GWF went into a nerf HR thread and advocated for such ridiculous changes the point of comparing would be brought up as well.
As for the future of HRs that remains to be seen. It really depends how the devs handle the set bonus fix I suppose, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes either way. Going to be harder to survive several GWF rotations like they can now, but without Roar theyll certainly have an easier time kiting GWFs. And as far as every other class I'm sure HR will still be melting CWs and GFs with no chance of dying and theyll still be picking off perma-rogues just fine.
No no. Look at your own thread history. You came in saying 'don't nerf unstoppable' then moved to 'it's HRs that are OP!' Now go to the Barracks and find me a nerf-GWF thread started by a HR. You'll have to dig back a bit. Now look at the first page of the Wilds and what do you see? A GWF QQ thread about nerfing the HR. I actually think it is the top post. Hrs don't start that argument but after the last nerf they are sure to tear it appart every time it comes up. It's like every time someone complains about the GWF they point at the HR and yell "He did it!'
You realize this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If someone finds the video then obviously the HRs were not 'skilled'. Of course every video of a HR beating a GWF they were both 'equally skilled'. It is miraculous how many people's 'skill' lead them to playing this one class.......
Fair enough, ignore the skill part. Find me a video of a GWF 2 or 3 shotting anyone with equal gear. Any class you want, let the enemy just sit there and take it and see if the GWF can 2 or 3 shot him. It doesn't happen. These type of exaggerations have no place in a balance discussion.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
The reason why HRs keep coming up is because for whatever reason its the class that keeps calling for nerfs the most often even though they are doing just fine
Dude you are civil and nice when you write and that goes a long way and even deserves some respect.
But you do need to get your baring stright :-) the one crying out for nerf of HR was gwfs that suddenly had a class that they couldent roll over like all the other classes.
Read hr forum and some other threads about nerfing hrs and you find out that gwfs has cryed and qqed for weeks about hr and their inbabilty to kill them.
If some have asked for nerfs when it comes to hr and gwfs its not the hr the leads that contest....
My vision of it would be HRs kiting Unstoppable GWFs through double stacked thorn wards on every cap, stacking GPF and DoTs like mad and melting through any OP damage resist people tihnk Destroyers have in no time, all while healing themselves absurdly fast. Would be a fun bet I think.
The reason why HRs keep coming up is because for whatever reason its the class that keeps calling for nerfs the most often even though they are doing just fine. If TRs were whining I'd call them out too. I just cant stand hypocrisy I guess. I'm sure if a bunch of GWF went into a nerf HR thread and advocated for such ridiculous changes the point of comparing would be brought up as well.
As for the future of HRs that remains to be seen. It really depends how the devs handle the set bonus fix I suppose, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes either way. Going to be harder to survive several GWF rotations like they can now, but without Roar theyll certainly have an easier time kiting GWFs. And as far as every other class I'm sure HR will still be melting CWs and GFs with no chance of dying and theyll still be picking off perma-rogues just fine.
I believe HRs are the most played class, mostly I think because people like the Ranger archetype. So really there is a good reason why griefing troll comps use GWFs rather than stacking HRs and it's not for a lack of HRs. HRs certainly aren't busy playing PVE since we're not wanted in good groups.
Going against a perma or semi-perma on the future nerfed HR is going to be pretty tough without the set bonus healing. Maybe impossible without anything to decently mitigate POTB. Even now half the time against good ones I can only stalemate them because thorn ward doesn't do any damage to them.
Basically we'll be able to kill CWs. Yey. Who can't?
You're whole argument is that you think GWF isn't OP because you can't kill a few HRs 1v1. Not only is that a pretty lame argument on the face of it, but that's going to change when the set-bonus is nerfed.
I think a "who started it"-style discussion is pretty pointless. Obviously there are HRs frustrated with GWFs, GWFs frustrated with HRs, and everyone else frustrated with something or other. On an anecdotal basis, I see far more complaints about GWFs than about anything else; they've been overpowered for a very long time now without being properly fixed, and they're more in-your-face imbalanced than any other class. HRs don't kill people as quickly, which probably creates the illusion for a lot of people that they have more of a chance against them, even if defeat is every bit as certain.
Miore or less I agree. I guess I overacted when he said that HRs started it when in a thread about GWFs the GWF started calling HRs OP. My anecdotal experience has been similar to your own with the possible exception that while most classes complain about GWFs those complaining about HRs seem to have a composition of 70% GWFs, 20% TRs, 10% others. In forums, in PE, hell in my own guild sometimes.
That would be playing with words, though. Obviously his point is that GWFs are significantly better than most classes in some or most of those areas.
And buffing the other classes wouldn't necessarily lead to better balance. One of the reasons GWFs frustrate so many is that they can kill people so very quickly. Which was one reason why Tenacity was introduced; people didn't like to die without a chance to fight back. If you toned up other classes to give them capabilities to match that, it would just frustrate more people for the same reasons.
Second, it is less effort both immediately and in the long term to fix the class that sticks out rather than loading every other class up with stuff to balance the scales. That's not to say that there shouldn't be some happy medium of nerfs and buffs, but there are definitely aspects of GWFs that need to be toned down.
Or maybe not even GWFs specifically. A lot of balance problems in the game seem to stem from the interaction of DoT effects with per-tick effects. The Emblem of the Seldarine was one example; the HR armor set bonus another, and Destroyer GWFs doing so much burst comes from similar sources. When they initially introduced that, I thought it looked like it was going to be mostly a PvE thing, with stacks harder to build and maintain in PvP. If they made it 30-40 stacks of 1% each and/or put an ICD on how often you could accumulate stacks, and maybe made stacks go away faster, that would probably help greatly in PvP without affecting PvE much.
1. Buffing the other classes would certainly lead to better balance. Even if it were the case that everyone could kill evreyone quickly , that would be better balance.
2. I am biased here because I personally think buffing is always better than nerfing for a large number of reasons that I won't get into. In my experience, it just plays out better more often.
3. I agree with what you've said in that last paragraph very strongly. There are a lot of things that contribute to class imbalance that ironically has little to do with class mechanics. The destroyer capstone is a great example. It was designed seemingly quite well to be effective in PvE but not so effective in PvP. Because of GPF , I believe it is not working as intended. I would rather see GPF get looked at and fixed than see the Destroyer capstone get looked at and fixed. There's tons of things like this that contribute to this facade of GWF being super-OP. It would be much better to identify these outside forces and fix them instead of trying to play with the GWF class mechanics and inevitably screw things up for PvE or PvP.
-GPF should be looked at.
-Rainbow parties in PvP should enforced.
-Itemization should be looked at (I think this is the most important). GWF (and other classes too) have better access to better stats which better synchronize with their natural stats. GWF don't need all the defense deflect HP that the gear is giving to us. If we want to be tanky we should have to utilize Sentinel tree. This logic applies in other places as well.
Things like this are bigger influences on class balances than class mechanics and its just so much smarter to tinker with these things rather than make drastic changes to class mechanics like messing with Unstoppable that will inevitably just screw things up.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Dude you are civil and nice when you write and that goes a long way and even deserves some respect.
But you do need to get your baring stright :-) the one crying out for nerf of HR was gwfs that suddenly had a class that they couldent roll over like all the other classes.
Read hr forum and some other threads about nerfing hrs and you find out that gwfs has cryed and qqed for weeks about hr and their inbabilty to kill them.
If some have asked for nerfs when it comes to hr and gwfs its not the hr the leads that contest....
I appreciate that. I've personally never called for an HR nerf though. If other GWF in those threads youre talking about are suggesting unreasonable HR herfs the same way some HRs keep suggesting unreasonable GWF nerfs then I hope someone calls them out on it just the same.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
You're whole argument is that you think GWF isn't OP because you can't kill a few HRs 1v1. Not only is that a pretty lame argument on the face of it, but that's going to change when the set-bonus is nerfed.
My whole argument is that GWF doesn't need Unstoppable nerfed.
The discussion has evolved obviously but I've never expressed any problem with not being able to kill HR. I only ever mentioned that to help people recognize that GWF is not the only overpowered class. HR and TR are doing just fine and instead of all these nerf threads we should be focusing on buffing the classes that lag behind.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
No no. Look at your own thread history. You came in saying 'don't nerf unstoppable' then moved to 'it's HRs that are OP!' Now go to the Barracks and find me a nerf-GWF thread started by a HR. You'll have to dig back a bit. Now look at the first page of the Wilds and what do you see? A GWF QQ thread about nerfing the HR. I actually think it is the top post. Hrs don't start that argument but after the last nerf they are sure to tear it appart every time it comes up. It's like every time someone complains about the GWF they point at the HR and yell "He did it!'
I don't really care about what other GWFs write in other threads. I don't see how that is at all relevant to what I'm saying here or what anyone is saying here. Also, talking about classes like its a religious group is just stupid and I don't take part in that nonsense. HRs do this and GWFS do that and TRs are always doing so and so. Nonsense. The fact that you're pointing fingers and associatedme with another random person from another thread just because we play the same class shows a lot about what your intentions are and what you actually are bringing to this discussion. No wonder you kept debating HR and GWF with me. I raised that point as a small part of a bigger argument and all youre doing in this thread is fueling an immature class war.
Also, I don't need to check my thread history to know that I never said "its HRs that are OP" but maybe you should reread my thread history so you can stop misinterpreting what I say.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
The discussion has evolved obviously but I've never expressed any problem with not being able to kill HR. I only ever mentioned that to help people recognize that GWF is not the only overpowered class. HR and TR are doing just fine and instead of all these nerf threads we should be focusing on buffing the classes that lag behind.
And the concludes that - I think enough can agree that it would be a fine enough solution that most would find to their saticefaction.
Tr-give some more dam some more survivabilty after nerfing perma to the ground ( aweful build even admitted by the majority of trs)
Cw give em fireshield as an ability to make attacker think twice when to hit them (some testing about how often and long ofc)
DC- give them an option of taking a dam path with heavy debuffs and some cc with less healing and defence..
GF-shiat they suffered for so long that they deserve to lead for some time :-) change block so the block in a cone behind them shielding party members standing behind and change so they can block dam in the same way unstoppable works on stam or something now its redicules at some time and ubah all to seldom- and for the love of g--- give them at wills that does some damage... I wouldent mind some nice buff for party that made them desirable in groups ....
But i guess i can dream on -changes isent likely to come soon.....
I don't really care about what other GWFs write in other threads. I don't see how that is at all relevant to what I'm saying here or what anyone is saying here. Also, talking about classes like its a religious group is just stupid and I don't take part in that nonsense. HRs do this and GWFS do that and TRs are always doing so and so. Nonsense.
Also, I don't need to check my thread history to know that I never said "its HRs that are OP" but maybe you should reread my thread history so you can stop misinterpreting what I say.
Don't have to go even that far back in this thread...
As of now however, HR is definitely the most dominant Arena class in the game when played properly.
And the concludes that - I think enough can agree that it would be a fine enough solution that most would find to their saticefaction.
Tr-give some more dam some more survivabilty after nerfing perma to the ground ( aweful build even admitted by the majority of trs)
Cw give em fireshield as an ability to make attacker think twice when to hit them (some testing about how often and long ofc)
DC- give them an option of taking a dam path with heavy debuffs and some cc with less healing and defence..
GF-shiat they suffered for so long that they deserve to lead for some time :-) change block so the block in a cone behind them shielding party members standing behind and change so they can block dam in the same way unstoppable works on stam or something now its redicules at some time and ubah all to seldom- and for the love of g--- give them at wills that does some damage... I wouldent mind some nice buff for party that made them desirable in groups ....
But i guess i can dream on -changes isent likely to come soon.....
Really you could fix the GF without changing any class mechanic. The problem is the base weapon damge on GF mainhand is the lowest in the game. Remembering that damage also generates aggro. Why do you think FLS and TR are so much more effective on a IV GWF than a Conq with 11,000 power? Introduce a weapon with median damage, not even high, but average. GF would catch right up. maybe gear with real offensive stats, hell let em wear something like AoW. The real frustration with GFs is that almost all of their gear has mostly the same stat dispersal.
Don't have to go even that far back in this thread...
Nicely taken out of context, probably intentionally. I believe in that very same post you quoted me on I said that once the announced healing fix was implemented the class would be balanced.
Heres the paragraph you quoted me on:
"4. The points I raise about how easily an HR can get his way in the Arena vs a GWF are not to argue that HR are overpowered. Its to reinforce the fact that GWF is not some lone OP class that destroys everything. TR and HR are right there with GWF in terms of balance(if you dont believe me go ask a CW/GF), theyre effectiveness in the Arena is just not as "in-your-face" as the GWF is, and so they apparently don't induce as much rage or QQ. HR definitely need the healing fix as much as GWF need the Roar fix. But we know thats happening and assuming its done well i think the top 3 classes will be balanced. As of now however, HR is definitely the most dominant Arena class in the game when played properly."
Ruthless misinterpretation there sir. The opening sentence is literally the opposite of what you're saying I said. Maybe you just don't read things at all. Seems a lot of people on here just join on to argue for the sake of arguing, just blindly attacking anyone who disagrees with their sensitive opinions.
And by the way, saying that they are dominant in the arena is not at all saying that they are overpowered and should be nerfed. Which I stand by having never said. Feel free to try again though.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I don't really care about what other GWFs write in other threads. I don't see how that is at all relevant to what I'm saying here or what anyone is saying here. Also, talking about classes like its a religious group is just stupid and I don't take part in that nonsense. HRs do this and GWFS do that and TRs are always doing so and so. Nonsense. The fact that you're pointing fingers and associatedme with another random person from another thread just because we play the same class shows a lot about what your intentions are and what you actually are bringing to this discussion. No wonder you kept debating HR and GWF with me. I raised that point as a small part of a bigger argument and all youre doing in this thread is fueling an immature class war.
Also, I don't need to check my thread history to know that I never said "its HRs that are OP" but maybe you should reread my thread history so you can stop misinterpreting what I say.
I'm going to take the wayback machine to page 2 of this thread:
Roar is getting a fix and GWF will be just about balanced with equally skilled / geared TRs. These two classes are in a good spot to "set the bar" for balance. DC plays a strong support role and I think is also fairly well balanced. CW plays a good support role but could use some defensive capabilities. GF is underpowered. HR is overpowered.
Usually OP is shorthand for *ahem* overpowered. Are you using it differently? Ostentatiosly Pulchritudinous? I am pretty good looking....
Edit. That is the full post so there is possibility of it being 'taken out of context. IIRC it is also the point at which I started to argue against you in the matter.
Nicely taken out of context, probably intentionally. I believe in that very same post you quoted me on I said that once the announced healing fix was implemented the class would be balanced.
Heres the paragraph you quoted me on:
"4. The points I raise about how easily an HR can get his way in the Arena vs a GWF are not to argue that HR are overpowered. Its to reinforce the fact that GWF is not some lone OP class that destroys everything. TR and HR are right there with GWF in terms of balance(if you dont believe me go ask a CW/GF), theyre effectiveness in the Arena is just not as "in-your-face" as the GWF is, and so they apparently don't induce as much rage or QQ. HR definitely need the healing fix as much as GWF need the Roar fix. But we know thats happening and assuming its done well i think the top 3 classes will be balanced. As of now however, HR is definitely the most dominant Arena class in the game when played properly."
Ruthless misinterpretation there sir. The opening sentence is literally the opposite of what you're saying I said.
Eh, just because you start a paragraph saying you're not arguing that HR is OP, you still finish the paragraph concluding they are the most OP class.
To parahprase, "Just because I say that HR is the most OP class doesn't mean I come to argue that they're OP, but they're freaking OP!"
Ok, what about:
HR > GWF > Bad HR > TR > CW/DC/GF
This is a fun game I wonder how many times we can quote you saying HR's are OP in the same thread.
I'm going to take the wayback machine to page 2 of this thread:
Usually OP is shorthand for *ahem* overpowered. Are you using it differently? Ostentatiosly Pulchritudinous? I am pretty good looking....
Edit. That is the full post so there is possibility of it being 'taken out of context. IIRC it is also the point at which I started to argue against you in the matter.
Well done, what was not mentioned in that post was the issue of HR healing which I believe everyone can agree is the cause of making them overpowered. I later explained the difference between the current state of the HR and why we shouldn't concern ourselves with it because the class will be fine once the changes are implemented.
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Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
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And this is the esential problem with your position. I'm going to make up some rough numbers because Cryptic is, well, cryptic about player demographics. Let be generous and say that 60% the player base is PVE focussed. Really generous considering that 90% of the content is PVE. Now when you say "doctor" in reference to yourself I assume your credentials are that you are a hard-core PVP player. What would that be the top 10% or so? Just as a rough figure. 10% of 40% is 4% So when you are giving your opinion of what 'ballance' means in NWO you are giving what it means to 1 in 25 players (being generous). Which is where I need to break the bad news to you. You are assuming what is ballance for an extreme minority of the players. And like most MMOs the hardcore PVPers are the most rabid and loudest minority. This dynamic is not specific to NWO but something you run into in most MMOs out there. In high end play the level of skill changes the ballance. In casual of even mid-range PVP the GWF is over dominant because the skill threshold to get there is lower. Which is why most people will always disagree with you. So basically if your 'credentials' as a 'doctor' are that you are in the top tenth of PVP play your not even describing the same game everyone else is playing. Or even wants to. ANd I have certainly lived through enough games that simply dies out because the changes were made according to what the 'doctor' had ordered.
Edit: Something I should add here specifically about the HR. It was the newest shiniest toy and half the server population made alts of that class. For various reasons they were not popular in PVE. Which means that an awful lot of HRs are now PVP-only toons played by someone grinding AD on something else. This really, really, really distorts the curve on what sorts of HRs you will run into if you have a decent ELO rating.
marnival, yes 5 GWFs together seem to get more powerful exponentially, probably because 1 prone chain can turn into 5 prone chains if the GWFs time it properly. This is also true of HRs though, throwing down 3 thorn wards on a cap basically makes it impossible to contest for example. Should we nerf thorn ward because of this? No! Should we nerf prones? No! What we should do is force PvP groups to go rainbow. These 5 man GWF groups should be ashamed of themselves honestly, they are another reason why GWF balance is getting so exaggerated.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
You realize this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If someone finds the video then obviously the HRs were not 'skilled'. Of course every video of a HR beating a GWF they were both 'equally skilled'. It is miraculous how many people's 'skill' lead them to playing this one class.......
Wait what? I've said already that one of the main reasons why nerfs are unwelcomed are because it affects PVE. I'm with you on this one and I'm kind of confused as to where you thought I said otherwise.
Also, I wasn't referring to myself as the "doctor". It was simply a metaphor to convey the idea that just because 11 out of 12 people believe something is true doesn't make it true nor does it make it more likely to be true. I would like to believe that any who actually bothers to talk balance is "doctor" in the sense that they at least have some solid experience with the game.
Also, nice cryptic pun
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Whcih was my overall point. A game is alot more democratic than reality. When 11 out of 12s players experience is a different one than your own, in a game, they are right.
My vision of it would be HRs kiting Unstoppable GWFs through double stacked thorn wards on every cap, stacking GPF and DoTs like mad and melting through any OP damage resist people tihnk Destroyers have in no time, all while healing themselves absurdly fast. Would be a fun bet I think.
The reason why HRs keep coming up is because for whatever reason its the class that keeps calling for nerfs the most often even though they are doing just fine. If TRs were whining I'd call them out too. I just cant stand hypocrisy I guess. I'm sure if a bunch of GWF went into a nerf HR thread and advocated for such ridiculous changes the point of comparing would be brought up as well.
As for the future of HRs that remains to be seen. It really depends how the devs handle the set bonus fix I suppose, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes either way. Going to be harder to survive several GWF rotations like they can now, but without Roar theyll certainly have an easier time kiting GWFs. And as far as every other class I'm sure HR will still be melting CWs and GFs with no chance of dying and theyll still be picking off perma-rogues just fine.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
So if I find any 11 players in the game who think that GWF need a buff then they are right?
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
You at least need to seriously question why your experience of the game is so incredibly deviant from everyone else. I certainly would not jump to the conclusion that my experience was simply the 'right' way to play and therefor they should learn to play the game I like. I realize that the GWF was underpowered. But the buff was overboard. By a lot. Likely why after everyone and their uncle made a HR alt they made a GWF alt. Personally I like challenge in my games so I generally avoid the overpowered class. I built my GWF mostly to figure out how they worked. I kept it because it is really easy to farm epics when I don't have friends online because you can just pug it out. But really I play my GF more than my GWF becasue it is fun. Kessell in a GF is freaking awesome. On a GWF it is just another instance.....
No no. Look at your own thread history. You came in saying 'don't nerf unstoppable' then moved to 'it's HRs that are OP!' Now go to the Barracks and find me a nerf-GWF thread started by a HR. You'll have to dig back a bit. Now look at the first page of the Wilds and what do you see? A GWF QQ thread about nerfing the HR. I actually think it is the top post. Hrs don't start that argument but after the last nerf they are sure to tear it appart every time it comes up. It's like every time someone complains about the GWF they point at the HR and yell "He did it!'
Fair enough, ignore the skill part. Find me a video of a GWF 2 or 3 shotting anyone with equal gear. Any class you want, let the enemy just sit there and take it and see if the GWF can 2 or 3 shot him. It doesn't happen. These type of exaggerations have no place in a balance discussion.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Dude you are civil and nice when you write and that goes a long way and even deserves some respect.
But you do need to get your baring stright :-) the one crying out for nerf of HR was gwfs that suddenly had a class that they couldent roll over like all the other classes.
Read hr forum and some other threads about nerfing hrs and you find out that gwfs has cryed and qqed for weeks about hr and their inbabilty to kill them.
If some have asked for nerfs when it comes to hr and gwfs its not the hr the leads that contest....
I believe HRs are the most played class, mostly I think because people like the Ranger archetype. So really there is a good reason why griefing troll comps use GWFs rather than stacking HRs and it's not for a lack of HRs. HRs certainly aren't busy playing PVE since we're not wanted in good groups.
Going against a perma or semi-perma on the future nerfed HR is going to be pretty tough without the set bonus healing. Maybe impossible without anything to decently mitigate POTB. Even now half the time against good ones I can only stalemate them because thorn ward doesn't do any damage to them.
Basically we'll be able to kill CWs. Yey. Who can't?
You're whole argument is that you think GWF isn't OP because you can't kill a few HRs 1v1. Not only is that a pretty lame argument on the face of it, but that's going to change when the set-bonus is nerfed.
Miore or less I agree. I guess I overacted when he said that HRs started it when in a thread about GWFs the GWF started calling HRs OP. My anecdotal experience has been similar to your own with the possible exception that while most classes complain about GWFs those complaining about HRs seem to have a composition of 70% GWFs, 20% TRs, 10% others. In forums, in PE, hell in my own guild sometimes.
1. Buffing the other classes would certainly lead to better balance. Even if it were the case that everyone could kill evreyone quickly , that would be better balance.
2. I am biased here because I personally think buffing is always better than nerfing for a large number of reasons that I won't get into. In my experience, it just plays out better more often.
3. I agree with what you've said in that last paragraph very strongly. There are a lot of things that contribute to class imbalance that ironically has little to do with class mechanics. The destroyer capstone is a great example. It was designed seemingly quite well to be effective in PvE but not so effective in PvP. Because of GPF , I believe it is not working as intended. I would rather see GPF get looked at and fixed than see the Destroyer capstone get looked at and fixed. There's tons of things like this that contribute to this facade of GWF being super-OP. It would be much better to identify these outside forces and fix them instead of trying to play with the GWF class mechanics and inevitably screw things up for PvE or PvP.
-GPF should be looked at.
-Rainbow parties in PvP should enforced.
-Itemization should be looked at (I think this is the most important). GWF (and other classes too) have better access to better stats which better synchronize with their natural stats. GWF don't need all the defense deflect HP that the gear is giving to us. If we want to be tanky we should have to utilize Sentinel tree. This logic applies in other places as well.
Things like this are bigger influences on class balances than class mechanics and its just so much smarter to tinker with these things rather than make drastic changes to class mechanics like messing with Unstoppable that will inevitably just screw things up.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I appreciate that. I've personally never called for an HR nerf though. If other GWF in those threads youre talking about are suggesting unreasonable HR herfs the same way some HRs keep suggesting unreasonable GWF nerfs then I hope someone calls them out on it just the same.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
My whole argument is that GWF doesn't need Unstoppable nerfed.
The discussion has evolved obviously but I've never expressed any problem with not being able to kill HR. I only ever mentioned that to help people recognize that GWF is not the only overpowered class. HR and TR are doing just fine and instead of all these nerf threads we should be focusing on buffing the classes that lag behind.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I don't really care about what other GWFs write in other threads. I don't see how that is at all relevant to what I'm saying here or what anyone is saying here. Also, talking about classes like its a religious group is just stupid and I don't take part in that nonsense. HRs do this and GWFS do that and TRs are always doing so and so. Nonsense. The fact that you're pointing fingers and associatedme with another random person from another thread just because we play the same class shows a lot about what your intentions are and what you actually are bringing to this discussion. No wonder you kept debating HR and GWF with me. I raised that point as a small part of a bigger argument and all youre doing in this thread is fueling an immature class war.
Also, I don't need to check my thread history to know that I never said "its HRs that are OP" but maybe you should reread my thread history so you can stop misinterpreting what I say.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
And the concludes that - I think enough can agree that it would be a fine enough solution that most would find to their saticefaction.
Tr-give some more dam some more survivabilty after nerfing perma to the ground ( aweful build even admitted by the majority of trs)
Cw give em fireshield as an ability to make attacker think twice when to hit them (some testing about how often and long ofc)
DC- give them an option of taking a dam path with heavy debuffs and some cc with less healing and defence..
GF-shiat they suffered for so long that they deserve to lead for some time :-) change block so the block in a cone behind them shielding party members standing behind and change so they can block dam in the same way unstoppable works on stam or something now its redicules at some time and ubah all to seldom- and for the love of g--- give them at wills that does some damage... I wouldent mind some nice buff for party that made them desirable in groups ....
But i guess i can dream on -changes isent likely to come soon.....
Don't have to go even that far back in this thread...
Nicely taken out of context, probably intentionally. I believe in that very same post you quoted me on I said that once the announced healing fix was implemented the class would be balanced.
Heres the paragraph you quoted me on:
"4. The points I raise about how easily an HR can get his way in the Arena vs a GWF are not to argue that HR are overpowered. Its to reinforce the fact that GWF is not some lone OP class that destroys everything. TR and HR are right there with GWF in terms of balance(if you dont believe me go ask a CW/GF), theyre effectiveness in the Arena is just not as "in-your-face" as the GWF is, and so they apparently don't induce as much rage or QQ. HR definitely need the healing fix as much as GWF need the Roar fix. But we know thats happening and assuming its done well i think the top 3 classes will be balanced. As of now however, HR is definitely the most dominant Arena class in the game when played properly."
Ruthless misinterpretation there sir. The opening sentence is literally the opposite of what you're saying I said. Maybe you just don't read things at all. Seems a lot of people on here just join on to argue for the sake of arguing, just blindly attacking anyone who disagrees with their sensitive opinions.
And by the way, saying that they are dominant in the arena is not at all saying that they are overpowered and should be nerfed. Which I stand by having never said. Feel free to try again though.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I'm going to take the wayback machine to page 2 of this thread:
Usually OP is shorthand for *ahem* overpowered. Are you using it differently? Ostentatiosly Pulchritudinous? I am pretty good looking....
Edit. That is the full post so there is possibility of it being 'taken out of context. IIRC it is also the point at which I started to argue against you in the matter.
Eh, just because you start a paragraph saying you're not arguing that HR is OP, you still finish the paragraph concluding they are the most OP class.
To parahprase, "Just because I say that HR is the most OP class doesn't mean I come to argue that they're OP, but they're freaking OP!"
Ok, what about:
This is a fun game I wonder how many times we can quote you saying HR's are OP in the same thread.
Well done, what was not mentioned in that post was the issue of HR healing which I believe everyone can agree is the cause of making them overpowered. I later explained the difference between the current state of the HR and why we shouldn't concern ourselves with it because the class will be fine once the changes are implemented.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----