GWF is NOT good everywhere, GWF 1v1 against HR is GG.
If your an HR and you cant beat a GWF 1v1, then your doing something wrong. im sorry, Go talk to Chocolate Shop or something.
If the GWF has a better ping than me, forget it.
Even if you're right though and HR always wins 1v1, that's only agaisnt 1 class in 1 situation where the GWF isn't the best possible class.
If all of PVP was just a 1v1 with 1 node, then maybe you'd have a point.
How do the high-end HRs fair against same level TRs while contesting?
Pretty good. I can usually get them to run away. Killing them is kind of hard since we don't have any finisher to speak of.
If what you're getting at is that HR is the best at 1v1 node-contesting, right now you're probably right. After our set-bonus gets nerfed, not so much.
Pretty good. I can usually get them to run away. Killing them is kind of hard since we don't have any finisher to speak of.
If what you're getting at is that HR is the best at 1v1 node-contesting, right now you're probably right. After our set-bonus gets nerfed, not so much.
That is what I'm getting at. Simply to point out that it possibly isn't just 1 class(as said in your previous post). I think I've ran into you a couple times in game, opposing and on the same team, you seem to be pretty good. However, the top tier individuals are ridiculous. That being said, how should balance be looked at? From the PoV of pugs? Nope. PoV of the people near the top tier? Ehhh, maybe getting there.. How bout from the people at the top who run with and against the best in the game in each respective class? This might be a decent choice...but I can't profess to truly know.
As I watch this thread develop I notice first and foremost that what is a misunderstanding here is everyone definition of what OP is. Some say gwf because the have soo many powerful tools, other say it's the HR because the top tier ones can eat up a gwiff (the ultimate 1v1 example). But the person leading this which hunt (annoyingly so) would be happy to see the nerf bat smash the gwf's into the ground because that is the source of his hatred. And I don't feel he is the one with the knowledge of what should change. But when that's done, the other "OP" classes will be exposed. Then, another class will be broken, either a little or a lot...regardless of how much time you have spent matching your gear to your build whilst trying to create synergy with your playstyle, people like the witch hunt leader will appear and spent more time trying to destroy your class (because it's the easiest way). They could instead put that tenacity towards "fixes" for their classes to combat their short falls instead trying to make their problem go away. The gwf isn't the enemy of the GF or any other class, the gwf has spent it's time broken as well. After we get nerfed, the GFs shield will still break too fast, they will still be doing too little damage, to little TPS. Your HRs set bonus will be destroyed, will that make you more desirable for pve? Nope. What will ruining the gwf accomplish besides some kind of weird justice for the guy in this thread that talks too much? The other class shortfalls will still be present. -Enough of my rambling.
I apologize for grammar, spelling and poor construction of my post^^, took the lazy way out...but that's ok around here.
If you think your "poorly-geared Swordmaster Destroyer" is "easy mode", then, i encourage you to use HR or CW and then, come here and read what you have wrote for so long... you will laugh at yourself almost for sure. In the only thing we agree is in "other classes [that is, GF and DC only] need some buffs".
And lets made a deal: if DEVs remove CC inmunity to unstoppable, then, they should remove ALL CC (stuns, slows, gashs, prones, etc) + TAB options from other clases. Deal? (will be really funny to see CWs not freezing at all and being smashed by DC class!!!!)
I built a IV dest just to try it out. It is by miles the easiest thing to play. Admittedly I do not have a CW, DC, or TR...
I built a IV dest just to try it out. It is by miles the easiest thing to play. Admittedly I do not have a CW, DC, or TR...
How easy or difficult a class is should only ever be considered under the condition that a "competitive gamer" is behind the keyboard. Under this condition, every class is equally easy to learn, easy to play, and easy to master. This is not chess. This is Neverwinter Online. It is by no means difficult nor complex in neither keyboard skill or game mechanics. These type of claims are absurd and have no place in a balance discussion.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
How easy or difficult a class is should only ever be considered under the condition that a "competitive gamer" is behind the keyboard. Under this condition, every class is equally easy to learn, easy to play, and easy to master. This is not chess. This is Neverwinter Online. It is by no means difficult nor complex in neither keyboard skill or game mechanics. These type of claims are absurd and have no place in a balance discussion.
I'm fairly competitive, I mean I was competitive in online games before there was an internet (BBS) and this is simply not true. Some things are easier than others. The GWF is really easy to play.
How easy or difficult a class is should only ever be considered under the condition that a "competitive gamer" is behind the keyboard. Under this condition, every class is equally easy to learn, easy to play, and easy to master. This is not chess. This is Neverwinter Online. It is by no means difficult nor complex in neither keyboard skill or game mechanics. These type of claims are absurd and have no place in a balance discussion.
I would in no way suggest anyone can play GWFs and succeed, but your contention is a bit misleading.
No matter who is behind the keyboard, easy is easy. I'm not saying an easy class/character is for newbies or anything, but when a class/character is easy to control and play with it means that it is that much powerful. It means that class/character returns a fairly high amount of "rewards" in relation to the total amount of "effort" put into it.
Of course, every class is different in terms of how much effort a player needs to put in to achieve certain results, and most players simply accept this difference as something given. But sometimes, there are cases where the relative balance between different classes are just too extreme, that it frustrates people.
Suppose a CW clandestinely meets a GWF face to face. The amount of effort that needs to be put into the CW to survive, gain distance, find the timing to retaliate and actually win the fight, is insurmountably incomparable with the amount of effort the GWF needs to catch up to the CW and just flat-out kill him. For the GWF, it is simply a matter of getting damaged a bit, go into Unstoppable, and then press down shift and spam any prones in the order you like.
Compared to the amount of risk a CW has to take when he anticipates the GWF's prone attempts (and the consequences he must face when he fails to do so), the risks and consequences a GWF takes when he fails to prone a CW is... well.. close to none. 3 seconds later, you can try TD again. Every 8 seconds you can fire off a root+interrupt+daze 3-in-1 CC towards the general direction and it will more than likely hit. Try as he may the CW cannot gain any distance at all, since the GWF will be simply latching on with a push of a button -- Threatening Rush, and nobody escapes it.
If the GWF fails to prone and loses Unstoppable, he could be held/stunned with the CW's attack combination... for what.. maybe around 20~30% HP loss? With that HP loss he fires off Unstoppable again, gets another chance. Every time the GWF fails he's given a chance after a chance after a chance to walk away and try again. Can you say the same for the CW fighting the GWF? One slip and the CW is literally dead.
Easy is easy. There's no denying that.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
We are in agreement my friend. Skill required for any respective class directly correlates with how overpowered that class is in comparison to the next. Which is to say, the easiest class is the one that is most overpowered and the hardest class is the one that is most underpowered. Excluding these additional challenges that imbalances create (which can be understood through your example) playing any particular class is as easy as the next.
Today GWF is OP to a CW. Tomorrow CW might be OP to a GWF (not really, but follow me :P), and then CW becomes easier than GWF. These are matters of balance though, and not actually matters of difficulty. For all intents and purposes, difficulty for each class remains exactly the same : EASY.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I disagree. That's not how ir works for me, it's about relative effort required to perform within the class capabilities.
And in that regards I find GWF the easiest, while I'd place the underpowered Guardian Fighter as the second easiest class.
Strange no one noticed this. It's mainly because you don't have to ALSO factor dodging. That's what makes easier the 2 classes above, and easier the GWF that inherently is built to facetank dmg and build up apexes of crit chance /damage/DR.
I would in no way suggest anyone can play GWFs and succeed, but your contention is a bit misleading.
No matter who is behind the keyboard, easy is easy. I'm not saying an easy class/character is for newbies or anything, but when a class/character is easy to control and play with it means that it is that much powerful. It means that class/character returns a fairly high amount of "rewards" in relation to the total amount of "effort" put into it.
Of course, every class is different in terms of how much effort a player needs to put in to achieve certain results, and most players simply accept this difference as something given. But sometimes, there are cases where the relative balance between different classes are just too extreme, that it frustrates people.
Suppose a CW clandestinely meets a GWF face to face. The amount of effort that needs to be put into the CW to survive, gain distance, find the timing to retaliate and actually win the fight, is insurmountably incomparable with the amount of effort the GWF needs to catch up to the CW and just flat-out kill him. For the GWF, it is simply a matter of getting damaged a bit, go into Unstoppable, and then press down shift and spam any prones in the order you like.
Compared to the amount of risk a CW has to take when he anticipates the GWF's prone attempts (and the consequences he must face when he fails to do so), the risks and consequences a GWF takes when he fails to prone a CW is... well.. close to none. 3 seconds later, you can try TD again. Every 8 seconds you can fire off a root+interrupt+daze 3-in-1 CC towards the general direction and it will more than likely hit. Try as he may the CW cannot gain any distance at all, since the GWF will be simply latching on with a push of a button -- Threatening Rush, and nobody escapes it.
If the GWF fails to prone and loses Unstoppable, he could be held/stunned with the CW's attack combination... for what.. maybe around 20~30% HP loss? With that HP loss he fires off Unstoppable again, gets another chance. Every time the GWF fails he's given a chance after a chance after a chance to walk away and try again. Can you say the same for the CW fighting the GWF? One slip and the CW is literally dead.
Easy is easy. There's no denying that.
Which was more or less my experience (save that I do not in fact have a CW). Save that the PVE experience was pretty easy as well. Not to say that getting to 60 is by any means difficult on anything. But you get to 60 and it is time to gear up. With my GF that process was run T1s to get your pre-nerf KC which you use to convince people to take you on T2s. For the HR (because I built it when prices were ridiculous and getting a broup was nigh impossible) run 2-3 GG a day for a week or so and build a Predator set. Stat bloat to get into T2s. For the GWF? By then I had plenty of friends that would help me gear my toon but that is entirely uneccissary. Post GWF seeks xyz in lfg and get invited to a group of CWFs in the next couple of minutes. Don't even post a GS or the enchants that I did not have. AoW in less time than it took to gear the previous 2.
But across the board with actually less gear it has more durability than my GF and nearly as much damage output as my HR. With 1/2 as much time playing it. That is what I am calling easy. I think the cognitive dissonance I am encountering with Kolevra is that he is assuming things in term of high-end PVP which is (by definition) a minority of the game.
That is what I'm getting at. Simply to point out that it possibly isn't just 1 class(as said in your previous post). I think I've ran into you a couple times in game, opposing and on the same team, you seem to be pretty good. However, the top tier individuals are ridiculous. That being said, how should balance be looked at? From the PoV of pugs? Nope. PoV of the people near the top tier? Ehhh, maybe getting there.. How bout from the people at the top who run with and against the best in the game in each respective class? This might be a decent choice...but I can't profess to truly know.
As I watch this thread develop I notice first and foremost that what is a misunderstanding here is everyone definition of what OP is. Some say gwf because the have soo many powerful tools, other say it's the HR because the top tier ones can eat up a gwiff (the ultimate 1v1 example). But the person leading this which hunt (annoyingly so) would be happy to see the nerf bat smash the gwf's into the ground because that is the source of his hatred. And I don't feel he is the one with the knowledge of what should change. But when that's done, the other "OP" classes will be exposed. Then, another class will be broken, either a little or a lot...regardless of how much time you have spent matching your gear to your build whilst trying to create synergy with your playstyle, people like the witch hunt leader will appear and spent more time trying to destroy your class (because it's the easiest way). They could instead put that tenacity towards "fixes" for their classes to combat their short falls instead trying to make their problem go away. The gwf isn't the enemy of the GF or any other class, the gwf has spent it's time broken as well. After we get nerfed, the GFs shield will still break too fast, they will still be doing too little damage, to little TPS. Your HRs set bonus will be destroyed, will that make you more desirable for pve? Nope. What will ruining the gwf accomplish besides some kind of weird justice for the guy in this thread that talks too much? The other class shortfalls will still be present. -Enough of my rambling.
I apologize for grammar, spelling and poor construction of my post^^, took the lazy way out...but that's ok around here.
Ok, 2 classes. That's the thing, though. Right now, HR and TR are both great but they're great at the same thing- node-contesting. HR is best 1v1 node-contesting and TR is best 2+v1 node contesting. GWF is best at everything else, and still good at node-contesting vs. every other class but those 2 (and if there's a gear or ping imbalance he can beat those 2 as well).
As for witch-hunts, well the witch-hunt on HRs has already been successful. Between a GF posting a vid of 2 GFs unable to kill a BIS HR while playing poorly and a GWF making a bogus bug report saying meditation heals HRs to full (it doesn't, and it doesn't even provide a significant heal unless you help), they're going to nerf the PVP set-bonus into the ground.
I wouldn't mind if HRs could go back to a high dps range style of play and just forget about node-contesting all together, but with the nerf to split shot it's not really viable. I was actually happier with my HR before pathfinder because I could provide great AOE dps support, and still do decently on nodes even if I wasn't the best class for it.
Anyway, ideally I'd like a situation where every class was the best at one aspect of domination.
Basically right now, GWF is jack of all trades, master of all when he should be master of none. At the very least, they shouldn't have the best CC on top of the best damage and best survivability. Give the CC advantage back to CWs. Somehow make GFs the class with the most survivability.
A Dev said that they're looking into prone duration, so maybe once Roar is fixed and if GWF prones are shortened, the playing field will be a little more evened out.
I don't know where HR is going to fit in to the picture once the set-bonus is nerfed. I can't see them being serious competition either to TRs or GWFs.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
0
zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Where are you seeing 2? Or did you conjure that from your vivid imagination?
Should I keep quoting you?
"I built a IV dest just to try it out. It is by miles the easiest thing to play. Admittedly I do not have a CW, DC, or TR..."
So you said it yourself, you don't have CW, DC, or TR.. And you also said you just built an IV dest. Stop contradicting yourself and let's not discuss this anymore since we're out of topic.
0
zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
He said he didn't play 3 classes, he said he made a GWF. POSSIBLY it implies he also rolled a HR and a GF. (3 total)
My point had to do with him originally only having 2 classes, then rolling up a GWF and making an assumption. Based on what perspective? Wanna give him the third? Alright then he tried 3 classes. My point still stands
We're not on strike...just no one reported any of this. Anyway, since this is the third time I've had to prune this thread, I'm just going to put it out of its misery now and close it.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Comments
If the GWF has a better ping than me, forget it.
Even if you're right though and HR always wins 1v1, that's only agaisnt 1 class in 1 situation where the GWF isn't the best possible class.
If all of PVP was just a 1v1 with 1 node, then maybe you'd have a point.
How do the high-end HRs fair against same level TRs while contesting?
Pretty good. I can usually get them to run away. Killing them is kind of hard since we don't have any finisher to speak of.
If what you're getting at is that HR is the best at 1v1 node-contesting, right now you're probably right. After our set-bonus gets nerfed, not so much.
That is what I'm getting at. Simply to point out that it possibly isn't just 1 class(as said in your previous post). I think I've ran into you a couple times in game, opposing and on the same team, you seem to be pretty good. However, the top tier individuals are ridiculous. That being said, how should balance be looked at? From the PoV of pugs? Nope. PoV of the people near the top tier? Ehhh, maybe getting there.. How bout from the people at the top who run with and against the best in the game in each respective class? This might be a decent choice...but I can't profess to truly know.
As I watch this thread develop I notice first and foremost that what is a misunderstanding here is everyone definition of what OP is. Some say gwf because the have soo many powerful tools, other say it's the HR because the top tier ones can eat up a gwiff (the ultimate 1v1 example). But the person leading this which hunt (annoyingly so) would be happy to see the nerf bat smash the gwf's into the ground because that is the source of his hatred. And I don't feel he is the one with the knowledge of what should change. But when that's done, the other "OP" classes will be exposed. Then, another class will be broken, either a little or a lot...regardless of how much time you have spent matching your gear to your build whilst trying to create synergy with your playstyle, people like the witch hunt leader will appear and spent more time trying to destroy your class (because it's the easiest way). They could instead put that tenacity towards "fixes" for their classes to combat their short falls instead trying to make their problem go away. The gwf isn't the enemy of the GF or any other class, the gwf has spent it's time broken as well. After we get nerfed, the GFs shield will still break too fast, they will still be doing too little damage, to little TPS. Your HRs set bonus will be destroyed, will that make you more desirable for pve? Nope. What will ruining the gwf accomplish besides some kind of weird justice for the guy in this thread that talks too much? The other class shortfalls will still be present. -Enough of my rambling.
I apologize for grammar, spelling and poor construction of my post^^, took the lazy way out...but that's ok around here.
I built a IV dest just to try it out. It is by miles the easiest thing to play. Admittedly I do not have a CW, DC, or TR...
How easy or difficult a class is should only ever be considered under the condition that a "competitive gamer" is behind the keyboard. Under this condition, every class is equally easy to learn, easy to play, and easy to master. This is not chess. This is Neverwinter Online. It is by no means difficult nor complex in neither keyboard skill or game mechanics. These type of claims are absurd and have no place in a balance discussion.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I'm fairly competitive, I mean I was competitive in online games before there was an internet (BBS) and this is simply not true. Some things are easier than others. The GWF is really easy to play.
I would in no way suggest anyone can play GWFs and succeed, but your contention is a bit misleading.
No matter who is behind the keyboard, easy is easy. I'm not saying an easy class/character is for newbies or anything, but when a class/character is easy to control and play with it means that it is that much powerful. It means that class/character returns a fairly high amount of "rewards" in relation to the total amount of "effort" put into it.
Of course, every class is different in terms of how much effort a player needs to put in to achieve certain results, and most players simply accept this difference as something given. But sometimes, there are cases where the relative balance between different classes are just too extreme, that it frustrates people.
Suppose a CW clandestinely meets a GWF face to face. The amount of effort that needs to be put into the CW to survive, gain distance, find the timing to retaliate and actually win the fight, is insurmountably incomparable with the amount of effort the GWF needs to catch up to the CW and just flat-out kill him. For the GWF, it is simply a matter of getting damaged a bit, go into Unstoppable, and then press down shift and spam any prones in the order you like.
Compared to the amount of risk a CW has to take when he anticipates the GWF's prone attempts (and the consequences he must face when he fails to do so), the risks and consequences a GWF takes when he fails to prone a CW is... well.. close to none. 3 seconds later, you can try TD again. Every 8 seconds you can fire off a root+interrupt+daze 3-in-1 CC towards the general direction and it will more than likely hit. Try as he may the CW cannot gain any distance at all, since the GWF will be simply latching on with a push of a button -- Threatening Rush, and nobody escapes it.
If the GWF fails to prone and loses Unstoppable, he could be held/stunned with the CW's attack combination... for what.. maybe around 20~30% HP loss? With that HP loss he fires off Unstoppable again, gets another chance. Every time the GWF fails he's given a chance after a chance after a chance to walk away and try again. Can you say the same for the CW fighting the GWF? One slip and the CW is literally dead.
Easy is easy. There's no denying that.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
We are in agreement my friend. Skill required for any respective class directly correlates with how overpowered that class is in comparison to the next. Which is to say, the easiest class is the one that is most overpowered and the hardest class is the one that is most underpowered. Excluding these additional challenges that imbalances create (which can be understood through your example) playing any particular class is as easy as the next.
Today GWF is OP to a CW. Tomorrow CW might be OP to a GWF (not really, but follow me :P), and then CW becomes easier than GWF. These are matters of balance though, and not actually matters of difficulty. For all intents and purposes, difficulty for each class remains exactly the same : EASY.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
And in that regards I find GWF the easiest, while I'd place the underpowered Guardian Fighter as the second easiest class.
Strange no one noticed this. It's mainly because you don't have to ALSO factor dodging. That's what makes easier the 2 classes above, and easier the GWF that inherently is built to facetank dmg and build up apexes of crit chance /damage/DR.
But across the board with actually less gear it has more durability than my GF and nearly as much damage output as my HR. With 1/2 as much time playing it. That is what I am calling easy. I think the cognitive dissonance I am encountering with Kolevra is that he is assuming things in term of high-end PVP which is (by definition) a minority of the game.
Ok, 2 classes. That's the thing, though. Right now, HR and TR are both great but they're great at the same thing- node-contesting. HR is best 1v1 node-contesting and TR is best 2+v1 node contesting. GWF is best at everything else, and still good at node-contesting vs. every other class but those 2 (and if there's a gear or ping imbalance he can beat those 2 as well).
As for witch-hunts, well the witch-hunt on HRs has already been successful. Between a GF posting a vid of 2 GFs unable to kill a BIS HR while playing poorly and a GWF making a bogus bug report saying meditation heals HRs to full (it doesn't, and it doesn't even provide a significant heal unless you help), they're going to nerf the PVP set-bonus into the ground.
I wouldn't mind if HRs could go back to a high dps range style of play and just forget about node-contesting all together, but with the nerf to split shot it's not really viable. I was actually happier with my HR before pathfinder because I could provide great AOE dps support, and still do decently on nodes even if I wasn't the best class for it.
Anyway, ideally I'd like a situation where every class was the best at one aspect of domination.
Basically right now, GWF is jack of all trades, master of all when he should be master of none. At the very least, they shouldn't have the best CC on top of the best damage and best survivability. Give the CC advantage back to CWs. Somehow make GFs the class with the most survivability.
A Dev said that they're looking into prone duration, so maybe once Roar is fixed and if GWF prones are shortened, the playing field will be a little more evened out.
I don't know where HR is going to fit in to the picture once the set-bonus is nerfed. I can't see them being serious competition either to TRs or GWFs.
Should I keep quoting you?
"I built a IV dest just to try it out. It is by miles the easiest thing to play. Admittedly I do not have a CW, DC, or TR..."
So you said it yourself, you don't have CW, DC, or TR.. And you also said you just built an IV dest. Stop contradicting yourself and let's not discuss this anymore since we're out of topic.
My point had to do with him originally only having 2 classes, then rolling up a GWF and making an assumption. Based on what perspective? Wanna give him the third? Alright then he tried 3 classes. My point still stands
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com