The main problem is everyone comparing the GWF dmg with the CW which is obviously unbalanced, in mod 2 we have (or had) two good dpsers CW and GWF, the gwf is being taken to a lower level in damage but still higher than every other class except the cw which will be also fixed, meaning that both will have still high dps but there will be not a huge difference in comparison to another class.
I.E: Right now, any dungeon, total dps:
GWF 20m, CW 19m, tr/hr 8m, GF 6m, DC 3m.
Now once the GWF and CW receive their respective fixes, reworks, w/e
GWF/CW 12m, tr/hr 10m, GF 8m, DC 5m.
Because the GWF and the CW won't have the huge dps as it is now in the live server, the other classes will be able to deal more damage (enemies will last longer because they receive less damage) a GWF or a CW won't kill a whole group of enemies by himself, the whole party will be required.
So every suggestion done in this thread is like: GWF dmg sucks now bla bla, we have to keep it close to the CW so buff this and that makes no sense because as soon as we realise that once both classes get their damage cut by almost half and we are still in the top, we won't even notice the nerf (which is actually a fix, we have to accept this).
This supports what I just wrote.
I just hope that the devs could be able to bring the fixes for both CW and GWF together for the Mod3 and not just for the GWF, otherwise there would be a huge imbalance.
Most of my opinions and posts are PVP related. It seems your focus is on PVE.
Quite honestly, even if they bring things back "inline" as you propose, this wont and doesnt fix the viability of the Sent class in BOTH PVE and PVP considering a DC healing can strip agro off a Sent tank.
Ontop of that again, Sents in pvp worthless....
So while your focus seems to be on damage output in PVE and how "once they nerf CWs itll be fair" that really doesnt sound promising to me about the class viability as a whole - where your looking at PVE Dest builds...
So lets not forget the GWFs other trees that are mainly being talked about here...
ayroux, as someone who plays in top premades and mains a GWF, I disagree with you entirely. Feel free to message me @risendragon and let's fight some on preview. Sentinel is not trash in pvp for module 3. There are plenty of other options other than Deep Gash and Student of the Sword. The DPS from GWF did not come from Deep Gash. On average it was 10-15%. Student of the Sword was a 45% defense reduction ~9% DR reduction. So that was a buff of 9% damage.. now that's 4%. So we lose 10-15% total damage output utilizing the same feats and powers.
10-15% total damage output does suck, but it is not gamebreaking. There are plenty of other options, enchants, and builds that are very viable. The 'normal' build may no longer be as great as it was, but there are builds atm that were a 5% differential from what the normal build was. Those builds become viable. So if you feat your last 10 paragon feats different, you'll see your damage back around where you like it.
TL;DR: Shut up and theorycraft like the rest of us and stop whining.
ayroux, as someone who plays in top premades and mains a GWF, I disagree with you entirely. Feel free to message me @risendragon and let's fight some on preview. Sentinel is not trash in pvp for module 3. There are plenty of other options other than Deep Gash and Student of the Sword. The DPS from GWF did not come from Deep Gash. On average it was 10-15%. Student of the Sword was a 45% defense reduction ~9% DR reduction. So that was a buff of 9% damage.. now that's 4%. So we lose 10-15% total damage output utilizing the same feats and powers.
10-15% total damage output does suck, but it is not gamebreaking. There are plenty of other options, enchants, and builds that are very viable. The 'normal' build may no longer be as great as it was, but there are builds atm that were a 5% differential from what the normal build was. Those builds become viable. So if you feat your last 10 paragon feats different, you'll see your damage back around where you like it.
TL;DR: Shut up and theorycraft like the rest of us and stop whining.
3 small things here...
1. Ayroux has been advocate for some nerfing of gwf in several ways in pvp before and cant be seen as some that just want gwfs to continue be op imho.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
3. I challange you to run a full dungeon same party in test as in live and try to come up with about same total dam- it just wont happend.
There will allways be some that want to stand out calling other cry babys telling them that all is fine and i found the way around it couse am better, more inventfull etc etc etc.
We had em before module 2 saying that gwf was all fine and dandy and could out dps any cw if they just did things right and you just joined that team.
Am not saying gwf was fine compared to tr gf hr before and that some changes to put them more in pair with those classes is a bad thing (leaving cw out of this as they seem to be a special case for the devs).
But the total of the nerf like it is now... well lets just say gwf wont be the most popular class in either pvp or pve ...
I guess it depends on what you mean by competitive....
For Hotenow/Rivenscare the only reason they were OP on LIVE (and still behind a well played HR/TR) is because they could face tank alot of damage and dish out alot of damage.
Deep Gash nerf and SOS nerf essentially cut Sents damage on average around 35%+. So now Sentinels are just facetanks who cant do anything. Sure they can TRY and contest however now that they cant 1v1 down a HR/TR/DC/GF - its pretty easy to stalemate them - considering there are alot of TR/HRs Sents basically just lost their value added as a backcapper.
In Zone PVP: Again sure they can facetank, however their damage (again) is so pitiful they wont really be able to do alot. In fact the only saving grace right now for Sents is the Blacksmith companion because his damage reflection is so high, a Sent can pray that they just outlive their opponent enough to have blacksmith reflect enough damage back for a competitive match.
I took my Sent GWF who ROCKS atm on live and tested him in zone pvp against an HR. I couldnt even out DPS his self healing from the 4/4 set. I played him match after after - absolutely pathetic.
I swapped over to Destroyer and it was night and day difference. I lost a little tankiness, but my damage output was (seemed to me) double. The HR was like "wtf did you do" because it actually was a competitive fight.
So what I would say is:
Sentinels really are dead...
If you are a GWF your only real hope in being effective means rolling Destroyer. While this may be viable in Zone PVP. I have yet to test in Domination.
Considering the OPness of HRs and TRs at this point, I dont see what a Dest GWF could bring to the table in a highly competitive matchup that would really help the game. Maybe they will pick up the "roam DPS" roll since hey are somewhat hard to CC, and now their damage is higher? I dont know....
Thats just my experience playing GWF both on LIVE and on PTR....
i would not say that damage of destroyer is now higher in pvp my dps gwf could kill low hp class with just frontline and ibs comobo ty to old deep gash and 3-4k dps per sec after ibs but now we no longer have it and in pvp u wont have 20 stacks of destroyer since when u use unstopple as dps gwf this means i will die very soon most of time even before end of it
as for sentinel they could use some more nerfs since they will be still far superior in dps to dps str+dex sword master or iron vangourd by far if have con+str and are iron vangourd sentinels
insitigator is the biggest loser of mod 3 update it no longer do any dps and lost huge part of buff up for team with sos nerf so mostly they killed build allmost noone used before i for example love it giveng combat advantge to team and sos debuff buff did make it solid for team and it had good dps to
as for sentinel they could use some more nerfs since they will be still far superior in dps to dps str+dex sword master or iron vangourd by far if have con+str and are iron vangourd sentinels
Sry but i dont feel op at all in pvp. When i face proper pvp builds i am having alot of trouble: HR- i cant even get him under 80% hp, lone wolf with 4 piece bonus is just insanely strong, TR- a proper played perma can kill me as well pretty easy, VS DC/GF we can look at one another all day or till a CW comes and blows me to pieces. Speaking of CW: as u;ve seen from the video blacksheep posted, they are not the pushovers that most think and now with the dps loss i dont think we can kill them at all.
The cap in destroyer is useless in pvp as well, no one will stay near a gwf when it is in unstoppable.
I found the biggest problem I had with GWF especially PvP wise was that every single one had the same choices in every slot, there was/probably still is no real variation. I think spec tree wise it may of been a good idea to decrease the damage sentinel can get but increase the amount of defense / flat resistance %'s it may be able to get somehow, I never understood why sentinel had such high deflect. Surely instigator should then be made as a deflect tank but with much less base resistance than on sentinel. Then destroyer should be DPS based without either of the two but with the ability to 3 shot my HR with a stun/knock lock like the sentinel GWF somehow can already do. You just want that variation there to make things more interesting, I don't see why instigator has such bad ending specs, there should be a way to get more deflect by getting to the end of that tree.
So now I have 3 mules who used to be high end pvp chars. Cryptic, you fail... you just fail at game making. I created a GF solely for pvp and you made it noncompetitive, so I created a CW and you made it noncompetitive and now you made my GWF noncompetitive. Do you want me to stop playing? I don't like playing TR or HR in pvp so why do you leave me with a choice of either playing classes I hate and staying competitive or playing classes I love and being absolutely obsolete and not serving any purpose whatsoever and 100% reliant on the TRs and HRs on my team. The only solution I can see so far for myself is to put my playtime on hold until you balance everything.
Sry but i dont feel op at all in pvp. When i face proper pvp builds i am having alot of trouble: HR- i cant even get him under 80% hp, lone wolf with 4 piece bonus is just insanely strong, TR- a proper played perma can kill me as well pretty easy, VS DC/GF we can look at one another all day or till a CW comes and blows me to pieces. Speaking of CW: as u;ve seen from the video blacksheep posted, they are not the pushovers that most think and now with the dps loss i dont think we can kill them at all.
The cap in destroyer is useless in pvp as well, no one will stay near a gwf when it is in unstoppable.
I have a GWF. It is STOOOOPID OP in PvP... They are absurd.
TR has an advantage for sure and HRs can be pretty **** tough, but only when played really well.
GWF you need a heartbeat to do very very well. I'm not going to even talk about the top tier GWFs that have been playing for a while.... Those guys... Well **** those guys! =P
Anyway, this is a feedback thread so I'm gonna get outa here, sorry for the derail!
So now I have 3 mules who used to be high end pvp chars. Cryptic, you fail... you just fail at game making. I created a GF solely for pvp and you made it noncompetitive, so I created a CW and you made it noncompetitive and now you made my GWF noncompetitive. Do you want me to stop playing? I don't like playing TR or HR in pvp so why do you leave me with a choice of either playing classes I hate and staying competitive or playing classes I love and being absolutely obsolete and not serving any purpose whatsoever and 100% reliant on the TRs and HRs on my team. The only solution I can see so far for myself is to put my playtime on hold until you balance everything.
So basically cryptic fails because you personally can't roflstomp others as much as you used to?
Sry but i dont feel op at all in pvp.
The cap in destroyer is useless in pvp as well, no one will stay near a gwf when it is in unstoppable.
I have to agree. Now I have all 6 classes with 13-15k GS each and ideal PvP build. I don't know what made playing GWF feel like this, may be artifacts, boons, don't know, but it takes forever to kill someone.
HR- i cant even get him under 80% hp, lone wolf with 4 piece bonus is just insanely strong
Most of my damage hits are deflected or dodged, but even when I manage to land a couple of critical strikes, they hit for nothing. I actually kill HRs as a GWF if they just troll me running around CCing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me, but it takes freaking forever.
TR- a proper played perma can kill me as well pretty easy
Well, may be I haven't met good ones, but it's 90% win for me.
VS DC/GF we can look at one another all day
I can kill a DC pretty easily, it takes long, but they barely outheal even my at will damage.
About CWs - I don't know, bugged ArP makes them very weak, I see my Ice Knife and Icy Rays hit people for 4k-2k respectively (mitigation from 11k-6k), it's very hard to kill GWF with such a low damage.
There's no chance to kill anyone 1vs2 anymore, GWFs no longer have endless sustain, IMO, after module 3 they will be very weak in PvP.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
I have to agree. Now I have all 6 classes with 13-15k GS each and ideal PvP build. I don't know what made playing GWF feel like this, may be artifacts, boons, don't know, but it takes forever to kill someone.
Most of my damage hits are deflected or dodged, but even when I manage to land a couple of critical strikes, they hit for nothing. I actually kill HRs as a GWF if they just troll me running around CCing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me, but it takes freaking forever.
Well, may be I haven't met good ones, but it's 90% win for me.
I can kill a DC pretty easily, it takes long, but they barely outheal even my at will damage.
About CWs - I don't know, bugged ArP makes them very weak, I see my Ice Knife and Icy Rays hit people for 4k-2k respectively (mitigation from 11k-6k), it's very hard to kill GWF with such a low damage.
There's no chance to kill anyone 1vs2 anymore, GWFs no longer have endless sustain, IMO, after module 3 they will be very weak in PvP.
Agree- HRs just deflect/dodge everything and with the 4pc set bonus they actually outheal my at will spamming....
Versus TRs, a good TR will win almost everytime. Maybe with SE fix this will balance out some but on LIVE its pretty hard to win.
For DCs - a GWF cant kill a really good DC stacked for PVP play. If they know what they are doing you wont kill them. period. If they spec wrong/play wrong or are inexperienced its not even a contest - they will die.
Honestly I wont even play domination anymore I think, Ill probably just zone pvp since I can use companions to make up for some of these changes.
What is stupid is now you can either build around companions FOR zone pvp and then suck in domination OR build around domination but then not so as well in zone...
I hate they have this big difference now because it segregates the pvp community - which is the reason they gave for not giving us foundry pvp...
What is stupid is now you can either build around companions FOR zone pvp and then suck in domination OR build around domination but then not so as well in zone...
I hate they have this big difference now because it segregates the pvp community - which is the reason they gave for not giving us foundry pvp...
they need to sell purple pets somehow, if ppl dont buy them for pve where loss of 1k stat points doesnt matter as much then in pvp it matters more
Paladin Master Race
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Now once the GWF and CW receive their respective fixes, reworks, w/e
GWF/CW 12m, tr/hr 10m, GF 8m, DC 5m.
Because the GWF and the CW won't have the huge dps as it is now in the live server, the other classes will be able to deal more damage (enemies will last longer because they receive less damage) a GWF or a CW won't kill a whole group of enemies by himself, the whole party will be required..
Wrong answer... no it won't.
I can tell you're another person who has little understanding of the actual game and the dungeons... Almost like the Devs appear to be...
Where'd you get that information... Paingiver?
Do you even understand WHY the damage is so high on the Classes that ARE chosen for groups?
Here let me assist you... and simplify this for you...
If a Mage or GWF are damaging each mob for 50 (cw) damage and 75 (GWF) damage,
In ONE round of combat if the GWF hits 3 mobs and the Mage hits 6 mobs...
Their total damage in Paingiver will be 220 for GWF, and 300 for CW.
The Rogue? he's doing about 100 damage to a SINGLE mob... (yeah these guys PvE spec and high GS will actually crit for upwards of 100k)
So Paingiver comes out like this...
CW: 300 damage
GWF: 220 damage
Rogue: 100 damage
When in reality the highest damager per target WAS the rogue....
How exactly is this going to change anything. Secondly Do you REALLY believe this suddenly and mysteriously fixed ANYTHING?
Things like this will NEVER fix the problem. Because the problem isn't and never was GWF vs Rogue... or even GWF vs CW... It was... AoE damagers in a mass mob environment vs SINGLE target damagers in a mass mob environment who cannot compete and cannot participate because they do not and never have had the abillity to contribute to that kind of environment.
This fix and ANY other damage reduction attempt will DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change anything. Its why they keep doing this OVER AND OVER AND OVER ... and FAILING OVER AND OVER AND OVER and making the situation EVEN WORSE not better.
Because the Devs... and you apparently.... CANNOT see the REAL problem ergo... they keep applying useless fixes that accomplish nothing... while the other classes are STILL never going to get used because the BEST tool for the job in a Mass Mob situation IS an AoE damager or those who can contribute to it like a GWF...
That's the bottom line, and why NO damage reductions will ever balance anything or EVEN work to get other classes into dungeons... if your sole focus was Paingiver... then you missed why they keep doing this kind of thing over and over and failing ever fix anything or ever balancing PvE despite the fact they've been doing this almost for a year now.
Its time to walk a different path rather than following the same failure...
You want your other tools to work... you have to change the type of job being done. You can't shorten the handle of your screwdriver and then tell yourself the WRENCH will get used more... when all you've got is screws in your dungeons.
I can tell you're another person who has little understanding of the actual game and the dungeons... Almost like the Devs appear to be...
Where'd you get that information... Paingiver?
Do you even understand WHY the damage is so high on the Classes that ARE chosen for groups?
Here let me assist you... and simplify this for you...
If a Mage or GWF are damaging each mob for 50 (cw) damage and 75 (GWF) damage,
In ONE round of combat if the GWF hits 3 mobs and the Mage hits 6 mobs...
Their total damage in Paingiver will be 220 for GWF, and 300 for CW.
The Rogue? he's doing about 100 damage to a SINGLE mob... (yeah these guys PvE spec and high GS will actually crit for upwards of 100k)
So Paingiver comes out like this...
CW: 300 damage
GWF: 220 damage
Rogue: 100 damage
When in reality the highest damager per target WAS the rogue....
How exactly is this going to change anything. Secondly Do you REALLY believe this suddenly and mysteriously fixed ANYTHING?
Things like this will NEVER fix the problem. Because the problem isn't and never was GWF vs Rogue... or even GWF vs CW... It was... AoE damagers in a mass mob environment vs SINGLE target damagers in a mass mob environment who cannot compete and cannot participate because they do not and never have had the abillity to contribute to that kind of environment.
This fix and ANY other damage reduction attempt will DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change anything. Its why they keep doing this OVER AND OVER AND OVER ... and FAILING OVER AND OVER AND OVER and making the situation EVEN WORSE not better.
Because the Devs... and you apparently.... CANNOT see the REAL problem ergo... they keep applying useless fixes that accomplish nothing... while the other classes are STILL never going to get used because the BEST tool for the job in a Mass Mob situation IS an AoE damager or those who can contribute to it like a GWF...
That's the bottom line, and why NO damage reductions will ever balance anything or EVEN work to get other classes into dungeons... if your sole focus was Paingiver... then you missed why they keep doing this kind of thing over and over and failing ever fix anything or ever balancing PvE despite the fact they've been doing this almost for a year now.
Its time to walk a different path rather than following the same failure...
You want your other tools to work... you have to change the type of job being done. You can't shorten the handle of your screwdriver and then tell yourself the WRENCH will get used more... when all you've got is screws in your dungeons.
TL;DR
Telling others they are wrong doesn't mean you are right. Actually, with you answer you look like the one with little understanding here. Highest single target dps title belong to the TR? just lol. Do you have one? That's the only way you could be in defense of this, if so, I would kindly like to invite you anywhere we are able to do single target dps in a boss, without adds, then let's see if your TR outdps my GWF and if there's a TR that outdps your GWF, geez. :rolleyes:
According to the fixes that the GWF is receiving for mod3, single target dmg will be even higher now.
If a TR want to do single target damage in a dungeon and going around "hey, I crit 1 add for 100k woohoo" that's why I see so many of them going to CN i.e. Right? You have to adapt to the situation and all you need is AoE dps, crit 3 adds for 40k each instead of just 1 for 100k.
Finally, just saying, Paingiver is ok, we are inflicting "pain" to many enemies not just one, all you want is another chart "highest crit" and you would be happy for the rest of your life.
GWF's are stupid op except against top players, and even then most classes do not have much of a chance.
You feel that gwf is op when facing pve geared opponents, but the opposite when facing similar geared/skilled opponents and since most of the population has bad gear you've come to the conclusion that gwf is op. You;re logic is bullet proof! This comes as a complete shock for me :rolleyes:
You want your other tools to work... you have to change the type of job being done. You can't shorten the handle of your screwdriver and then tell yourself the WRENCH will get used more... when all you've got is screws in your dungeons.
This is exactly right. The issue with GWFs/CWs in PVE isnt necessarily that these classes need to be fixed PER SE but more that the current dungeon design is TONS of mobs.
Silverquick great job at dumbing it down so most people could understand! Apparently its still too complex for others. There were hundreds of these types of threads upon release and in open beta but the DEVs never really bit.
Want to fix that problem? There was a brilliant thread created long ago that basically laid out different "tier" of monsters and what to do to each one.
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
Too lowbie unfriendly. As you could have been noticed, everything in this game is way to easy: limited number of abilities that can be used at the same time, limited itemization, absolutely identical mob encounters, etc. Adding a least a bit of strategy and tactics requirement will instantly cut off 90% of players, that braindead smash keyboard and hope for win. Just try to do Garrundar the Vile with pugs, they don't even realize what's happening, they don't even try to kill mystics, they will just smash their head on the keyboard till the dragon or they themselves will die. I absolutely sure that this is why we're getting all the same PvE stuff with millions of adds and red areas.
PvE design also negates the need of tanking as CWs can CC or dodge or strike from range. That's why GWF have to be a damage dealer in every spec, more or less. What we see now, is that the only available damage spec will be Destroyer. For GWF this is the only class in the game that has absolutely different gear for absolutely different specs - damage dealer and tank. You can't like CW or TR or anyone else just respec with the same gear and feel good. I absolutely hate these changes.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
1. Ayroux has been advocate for some nerfing of gwf in several ways in pvp before and cant be seen as some that just want gwfs to continue be op imho.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
3. I challange you to run a full dungeon same party in test as in live and try to come up with about same total dam- it just wont happend.
There will allways be some that want to stand out calling other cry babys telling them that all is fine and i found the way around it couse am better, more inventfull etc etc etc.
We had em before module 2 saying that gwf was all fine and dandy and could out dps any cw if they just did things right and you just joined that team.
Am not saying gwf was fine compared to tr gf hr before and that some changes to put them more in pair with those classes is a bad thing (leaving cw out of this as they seem to be a special case for the devs).
But the total of the nerf like it is now... well lets just say gwf wont be the most popular class in either pvp or pve ...
Best
Yeah, GWFs are pretty ruined for pve, but I was talking to Ayroux about pvp. So none of what you said applied to what I said at all. Move along.
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
gratz, you probably just wrote most stupid thing on the internet
Yeah, GWFs are pretty ruined for pve, but I was talking to Ayroux about pvp. So none of what you said applied to what I said at all. Move along.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
And you ability to read is good or.....
I disregarded what you said because you're not saying anything of value. Big means what? 30%? 40%? I have parsed results of using the correct sentinel feats + DG and SoTS between both live and preview for pvp, you lose a max 20% of your damage. However if you change up your build a bit, you gain back 15% immediately, so within 5% of what we were damagewise. 17k GS also means you're not using BiS gear. I'm in rank 10s and have 14-15k GS depending on which jewelry I decide to wear. You can compensate the loss. Not fully, but within 5% of what it was. The parse results show me losing 15-20% of my damage running the same feats, but you can get that damage back if you use a different build. You also have the option to drop your damage to become more of a stall, though I don't recommend it. 2v1 situations still see you dying in roughly the same amount of time.
What I dislike about you and ayroux is that you're saying: Sentinel GWF is useless, and yet neither of you are posting numbers. Neither of you are running a BiS gwf. Neither of you are theorycrafting. There's plenty of workarounds, you're whining over nothing.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
This is exactly right. The issue with GWFs/CWs in PVE isnt necessarily that these classes need to be fixed PER SE but more that the current dungeon design is TONS of mobs.
Silverquick great job at dumbing it down so most people could understand! Apparently its still too complex for others. There were hundreds of these types of threads upon release and in open beta but the DEVs never really bit.
Want to fix that problem? There was a brilliant thread created long ago that basically laid out different "tier" of monsters and what to do to each one.
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
Apparently yes... its way too complex even when seriously dumbed down.
Stuff like this just ends up making the Devs look stupid in the end.
And when they FINALLY figure out that those classes never needed any adjustments, AND all they had to do was throw in some ACTUAL mobs that need the Tank/Rogue combo on them... rather than just spamming mass mobs all the time, they'll STILL have already hosed themselves up.
Because once they start to ACTUALLY add in Single target mobs that need to be DPS'd rather than mass mobs that need to be AoE'd down down the blinders will come off and it will be like NIGHT AND DAY, suddenly and mysteriously classes that could not participate anymore because they were useless on mass mobs... WILL BE ABLE TO AGAIN AND HAVE A ROLE.
... these people who keep saying "nerf, nerf, nerf"... will be wondering WHY still NO ONE is taking Tank/Rogue combinations into the Dungeons......
BECAUSE... they just nerfed the AoE Damagers so badly you'll STILL need to stack 50 kabillion of them just to get THROUGH the mass mobs to GET to the point where the SINGLE TARGET damagers can participate
So there's.... STILL not going to be any space for them in the party because no one can survive the mass mobs anymore without a crapton of AoE damagers in the party.
Wow.. talk about stepping on your own ****.
And these people think they're making the situation more "balanced" when in reality they're just making it worse and worse on every other class in the game.
They think they're so Smrat.... yeah so SMRAT they OUTSMRATTED themselves.
"Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups...."
hmmm... right now , the CW is preferred , but not essential . If you segregates dps party, you will automatically ensure the place of cw ... with a catch. being the dps cut " in half " given immunity to magic damage , your only option would be to bring the best melee dps you have, at the moment, gwf . 2x2 +1 ( DC ? )
Cut the potential to damage the party in half , that would only leave the tedious game ...
among a thousand speculations , a very simple problem can be observed in these enemies of ice wind . ALL represents a huge danger to melee classes . even the weakest enemies , when they die , they explode causing great damage / freezing . There is not any enemy ranged attack that is representatively more dangerous for the distance classes than for a melee .
and this is the great reversal .
IF the great mass of damage came from ranged attacks , the historic inefficiency of gwf while defender give space would bring gf to party . but this obsession with finding the gwf is the great evil of mankind only made secure arguably the stand of the cw . not because it does more damage , but he has control + ranged attack , which will be the best tools for survival at this point .
Also ... does not help much content you want to level down from the classes dungeons with fixed de9200 difficulty, for players with 14/15/16/17k gs. the "downgrade" is really horrible.
ps:in my opinion, the big, big problem of the rogue is not exist deadly traps that he can disarm. there is therefore no dps race would be just a detail.
ps2:This is the critical point. also the big problem is the accumulation of functions.
eg gwf now lost its utilitarian aspect. yet he does more damage than would before, he could not maximize the potential of other players. that is correct!
unfortunately this "fine tuning" will not intended for a thau for example.
ps3: i dont see the correction on critical severity...
I disregarded what you said because you're not saying anything of value. Big means what? 30%? 40%? I have parsed results of using the correct sentinel feats + DG and SoTS between both live and preview for pvp, you lose a max 20% of your damage. However if you change up your build a bit, you gain back 15% immediately, so within 5% of what we were damagewise.
And your parces/new builds are where ??? about adding anything of value!
You wrote i dident write anyting about pvp i quote myself and your answer is that you dissregarded it just lol you dont pay attension might be a better way of putting it.
Now show us a sent build that loose only 5% of the dam of what is on live, trust me alot would be pleased if you could.
Bis geared, well am rank 9 instead of 10th and have lvl 80-90 artifacts instead of 100 but thats about it in my book close enough so dont give me that about the gear should be making any big differance.
Show us your brillant theorycrafting of making 90% of the dam sent has on live with same geared gwf on test, we are looking so forward to you teaching us ).
Best
Plz enlighten us with your only loose 5% dps as sent with your new build, we are eager to see you add anything of value.
You feel that gwf is op when facing pve geared opponents, but the opposite when facing similar geared/skilled opponents and since most of the population has bad gear you've come to the conclusion that gwf is op. You;re logic is bullet proof! This comes as a complete shock for me :rolleyes:
Well.. it says.... And you quoted it... " And even then most don't have a chance." Meaning even if they out gear and skill me, they most of the time don't have a chance...
Well.. it says.... And you quoted it... " And even then most don't have a chance." Meaning even if they out gear and skill me, they most of the time don't have a chance...
What are you even talking about :rolleyes:
all you are doing is bragging without any kind of proof so this is all i have to say: Gz and i hope all of us may find an inspiration in your amazing talent.
Comments
Most of my opinions and posts are PVP related. It seems your focus is on PVE.
Quite honestly, even if they bring things back "inline" as you propose, this wont and doesnt fix the viability of the Sent class in BOTH PVE and PVP considering a DC healing can strip agro off a Sent tank.
Ontop of that again, Sents in pvp worthless....
So while your focus seems to be on damage output in PVE and how "once they nerf CWs itll be fair" that really doesnt sound promising to me about the class viability as a whole - where your looking at PVE Dest builds...
So lets not forget the GWFs other trees that are mainly being talked about here...
10-15% total damage output does suck, but it is not gamebreaking. There are plenty of other options, enchants, and builds that are very viable. The 'normal' build may no longer be as great as it was, but there are builds atm that were a 5% differential from what the normal build was. Those builds become viable. So if you feat your last 10 paragon feats different, you'll see your damage back around where you like it.
TL;DR: Shut up and theorycraft like the rest of us and stop whining.
3 small things here...
1. Ayroux has been advocate for some nerfing of gwf in several ways in pvp before and cant be seen as some that just want gwfs to continue be op imho.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
3. I challange you to run a full dungeon same party in test as in live and try to come up with about same total dam- it just wont happend.
There will allways be some that want to stand out calling other cry babys telling them that all is fine and i found the way around it couse am better, more inventfull etc etc etc.
We had em before module 2 saying that gwf was all fine and dandy and could out dps any cw if they just did things right and you just joined that team.
Am not saying gwf was fine compared to tr gf hr before and that some changes to put them more in pair with those classes is a bad thing (leaving cw out of this as they seem to be a special case for the devs).
But the total of the nerf like it is now... well lets just say gwf wont be the most popular class in either pvp or pve ...
Best
i would not say that damage of destroyer is now higher in pvp my dps gwf could kill low hp class with just frontline and ibs comobo ty to old deep gash and 3-4k dps per sec after ibs but now we no longer have it and in pvp u wont have 20 stacks of destroyer since when u use unstopple as dps gwf this means i will die very soon most of time even before end of it
as for sentinel they could use some more nerfs since they will be still far superior in dps to dps str+dex sword master or iron vangourd by far if have con+str and are iron vangourd sentinels
insitigator is the biggest loser of mod 3 update it no longer do any dps and lost huge part of buff up for team with sos nerf so mostly they killed build allmost noone used before i for example love it giveng combat advantge to team and sos debuff buff did make it solid for team and it had good dps to
Sry but i dont feel op at all in pvp. When i face proper pvp builds i am having alot of trouble: HR- i cant even get him under 80% hp, lone wolf with 4 piece bonus is just insanely strong, TR- a proper played perma can kill me as well pretty easy, VS DC/GF we can look at one another all day or till a CW comes and blows me to pieces. Speaking of CW: as u;ve seen from the video blacksheep posted, they are not the pushovers that most think and now with the dps loss i dont think we can kill them at all.
The cap in destroyer is useless in pvp as well, no one will stay near a gwf when it is in unstoppable.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
I have a GWF. It is STOOOOPID OP in PvP... They are absurd.
TR has an advantage for sure and HRs can be pretty **** tough, but only when played really well.
GWF you need a heartbeat to do very very well. I'm not going to even talk about the top tier GWFs that have been playing for a while.... Those guys... Well **** those guys! =P
Anyway, this is a feedback thread so I'm gonna get outa here, sorry for the derail!
like what? lvl 20? full on greens? Pls at least play a bit more, get some gear and stop saying stupid things like this.
So basically cryptic fails because you personally can't roflstomp others as much as you used to?
I have to agree. Now I have all 6 classes with 13-15k GS each and ideal PvP build. I don't know what made playing GWF feel like this, may be artifacts, boons, don't know, but it takes forever to kill someone. Most of my damage hits are deflected or dodged, but even when I manage to land a couple of critical strikes, they hit for nothing. I actually kill HRs as a GWF if they just troll me running around CCing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me, but it takes freaking forever. Well, may be I haven't met good ones, but it's 90% win for me. I can kill a DC pretty easily, it takes long, but they barely outheal even my at will damage.
About CWs - I don't know, bugged ArP makes them very weak, I see my Ice Knife and Icy Rays hit people for 4k-2k respectively (mitigation from 11k-6k), it's very hard to kill GWF with such a low damage.
There's no chance to kill anyone 1vs2 anymore, GWFs no longer have endless sustain, IMO, after module 3 they will be very weak in PvP.
Agree- HRs just deflect/dodge everything and with the 4pc set bonus they actually outheal my at will spamming....
Versus TRs, a good TR will win almost everytime. Maybe with SE fix this will balance out some but on LIVE its pretty hard to win.
For DCs - a GWF cant kill a really good DC stacked for PVP play. If they know what they are doing you wont kill them. period. If they spec wrong/play wrong or are inexperienced its not even a contest - they will die.
Honestly I wont even play domination anymore I think, Ill probably just zone pvp since I can use companions to make up for some of these changes.
What is stupid is now you can either build around companions FOR zone pvp and then suck in domination OR build around domination but then not so as well in zone...
I hate they have this big difference now because it segregates the pvp community - which is the reason they gave for not giving us foundry pvp...
they need to sell purple pets somehow, if ppl dont buy them for pve where loss of 1k stat points doesnt matter as much then in pvp it matters more
Wrong answer... no it won't.
I can tell you're another person who has little understanding of the actual game and the dungeons... Almost like the Devs appear to be...
Where'd you get that information... Paingiver?
Do you even understand WHY the damage is so high on the Classes that ARE chosen for groups?
Here let me assist you... and simplify this for you...
If a Mage or GWF are damaging each mob for 50 (cw) damage and 75 (GWF) damage,
In ONE round of combat if the GWF hits 3 mobs and the Mage hits 6 mobs...
Their total damage in Paingiver will be 220 for GWF, and 300 for CW.
The Rogue? he's doing about 100 damage to a SINGLE mob... (yeah these guys PvE spec and high GS will actually crit for upwards of 100k)
So Paingiver comes out like this...
CW: 300 damage
GWF: 220 damage
Rogue: 100 damage
When in reality the highest damager per target WAS the rogue....
How exactly is this going to change anything. Secondly Do you REALLY believe this suddenly and mysteriously fixed ANYTHING?
Things like this will NEVER fix the problem. Because the problem isn't and never was GWF vs Rogue... or even GWF vs CW... It was... AoE damagers in a mass mob environment vs SINGLE target damagers in a mass mob environment who cannot compete and cannot participate because they do not and never have had the abillity to contribute to that kind of environment.
This fix and ANY other damage reduction attempt will DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change anything. Its why they keep doing this OVER AND OVER AND OVER ... and FAILING OVER AND OVER AND OVER and making the situation EVEN WORSE not better.
Because the Devs... and you apparently.... CANNOT see the REAL problem ergo... they keep applying useless fixes that accomplish nothing... while the other classes are STILL never going to get used because the BEST tool for the job in a Mass Mob situation IS an AoE damager or those who can contribute to it like a GWF...
That's the bottom line, and why NO damage reductions will ever balance anything or EVEN work to get other classes into dungeons... if your sole focus was Paingiver... then you missed why they keep doing this kind of thing over and over and failing ever fix anything or ever balancing PvE despite the fact they've been doing this almost for a year now.
Its time to walk a different path rather than following the same failure...
You want your other tools to work... you have to change the type of job being done. You can't shorten the handle of your screwdriver and then tell yourself the WRENCH will get used more... when all you've got is screws in your dungeons.
lvl 60, full tenacity gear, full rank 10's (cept util slots) perfects, 3 purp artifacts, no legendary =\
I say again. GWF's are stupid op except against top players, and even then most classes do not have much of a chance.
TL;DR
Telling others they are wrong doesn't mean you are right. Actually, with you answer you look like the one with little understanding here. Highest single target dps title belong to the TR? just lol. Do you have one? That's the only way you could be in defense of this, if so, I would kindly like to invite you anywhere we are able to do single target dps in a boss, without adds, then let's see if your TR outdps my GWF and if there's a TR that outdps your GWF, geez. :rolleyes:
According to the fixes that the GWF is receiving for mod3, single target dmg will be even higher now.
If a TR want to do single target damage in a dungeon and going around "hey, I crit 1 add for 100k woohoo" that's why I see so many of them going to CN i.e. Right? You have to adapt to the situation and all you need is AoE dps, crit 3 adds for 40k each instead of just 1 for 100k.
Finally, just saying, Paingiver is ok, we are inflicting "pain" to many enemies not just one, all you want is another chart "highest crit" and you would be happy for the rest of your life.
This is exactly right. The issue with GWFs/CWs in PVE isnt necessarily that these classes need to be fixed PER SE but more that the current dungeon design is TONS of mobs.
Silverquick great job at dumbing it down so most people could understand! Apparently its still too complex for others. There were hundreds of these types of threads upon release and in open beta but the DEVs never really bit.
Want to fix that problem? There was a brilliant thread created long ago that basically laid out different "tier" of monsters and what to do to each one.
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
Too lowbie unfriendly. As you could have been noticed, everything in this game is way to easy: limited number of abilities that can be used at the same time, limited itemization, absolutely identical mob encounters, etc. Adding a least a bit of strategy and tactics requirement will instantly cut off 90% of players, that braindead smash keyboard and hope for win. Just try to do Garrundar the Vile with pugs, they don't even realize what's happening, they don't even try to kill mystics, they will just smash their head on the keyboard till the dragon or they themselves will die. I absolutely sure that this is why we're getting all the same PvE stuff with millions of adds and red areas.
PvE design also negates the need of tanking as CWs can CC or dodge or strike from range. That's why GWF have to be a damage dealer in every spec, more or less. What we see now, is that the only available damage spec will be Destroyer. For GWF this is the only class in the game that has absolutely different gear for absolutely different specs - damage dealer and tank. You can't like CW or TR or anyone else just respec with the same gear and feel good. I absolutely hate these changes.
Yeah, GWFs are pretty ruined for pve, but I was talking to Ayroux about pvp. So none of what you said applied to what I said at all. Move along.
gratz, you probably just wrote most stupid thing on the internet
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
And you ability to read is good or.....
I disregarded what you said because you're not saying anything of value. Big means what? 30%? 40%? I have parsed results of using the correct sentinel feats + DG and SoTS between both live and preview for pvp, you lose a max 20% of your damage. However if you change up your build a bit, you gain back 15% immediately, so within 5% of what we were damagewise. 17k GS also means you're not using BiS gear. I'm in rank 10s and have 14-15k GS depending on which jewelry I decide to wear. You can compensate the loss. Not fully, but within 5% of what it was. The parse results show me losing 15-20% of my damage running the same feats, but you can get that damage back if you use a different build. You also have the option to drop your damage to become more of a stall, though I don't recommend it. 2v1 situations still see you dying in roughly the same amount of time.
What I dislike about you and ayroux is that you're saying: Sentinel GWF is useless, and yet neither of you are posting numbers. Neither of you are running a BiS gwf. Neither of you are theorycrafting. There's plenty of workarounds, you're whining over nothing.
Apparently yes... its way too complex even when seriously dumbed down.
Stuff like this just ends up making the Devs look stupid in the end.
And when they FINALLY figure out that those classes never needed any adjustments, AND all they had to do was throw in some ACTUAL mobs that need the Tank/Rogue combo on them... rather than just spamming mass mobs all the time, they'll STILL have already hosed themselves up.
Because once they start to ACTUALLY add in Single target mobs that need to be DPS'd rather than mass mobs that need to be AoE'd down down the blinders will come off and it will be like NIGHT AND DAY, suddenly and mysteriously classes that could not participate anymore because they were useless on mass mobs... WILL BE ABLE TO AGAIN AND HAVE A ROLE.
... these people who keep saying "nerf, nerf, nerf"... will be wondering WHY still NO ONE is taking Tank/Rogue combinations into the Dungeons......
BECAUSE... they just nerfed the AoE Damagers so badly you'll STILL need to stack 50 kabillion of them just to get THROUGH the mass mobs to GET to the point where the SINGLE TARGET damagers can participate
So there's.... STILL not going to be any space for them in the party because no one can survive the mass mobs anymore without a crapton of AoE damagers in the party.
Wow.. talk about stepping on your own ****.
And these people think they're making the situation more "balanced" when in reality they're just making it worse and worse on every other class in the game.
They think they're so Smrat.... yeah so SMRAT they OUTSMRATTED themselves.
hmmm... right now , the CW is preferred , but not essential . If you segregates dps party, you will automatically ensure the place of cw ... with a catch. being the dps cut " in half " given immunity to magic damage , your only option would be to bring the best melee dps you have, at the moment, gwf . 2x2 +1 ( DC ? )
Cut the potential to damage the party in half , that would only leave the tedious game ...
among a thousand speculations , a very simple problem can be observed in these enemies of ice wind . ALL represents a huge danger to melee classes . even the weakest enemies , when they die , they explode causing great damage / freezing . There is not any enemy ranged attack that is representatively more dangerous for the distance classes than for a melee .
and this is the great reversal .
IF the great mass of damage came from ranged attacks , the historic inefficiency of gwf while defender give space would bring gf to party . but this obsession with finding the gwf is the great evil of mankind only made secure arguably the stand of the cw . not because it does more damage , but he has control + ranged attack , which will be the best tools for survival at this point .
Also ... does not help much content you want to level down from the classes dungeons with fixed de9200 difficulty, for players with 14/15/16/17k gs. the "downgrade" is really horrible.
ps:in my opinion, the big, big problem of the rogue is not exist deadly traps that he can disarm. there is therefore no dps race would be just a detail.
ps2:This is the critical point. also the big problem is the accumulation of functions.
eg gwf now lost its utilitarian aspect. yet he does more damage than would before, he could not maximize the potential of other players. that is correct!
unfortunately this "fine tuning" will not intended for a thau for example.
ps3: i dont see the correction on critical severity...
And your parces/new builds are where ??? about adding anything of value!
You wrote i dident write anyting about pvp i quote myself and your answer is that you dissregarded it just lol you dont pay attension might be a better way of putting it.
Now show us a sent build that loose only 5% of the dam of what is on live, trust me alot would be pleased if you could.
Bis geared, well am rank 9 instead of 10th and have lvl 80-90 artifacts instead of 100 but thats about it in my book close enough so dont give me that about the gear should be making any big differance.
Show us your brillant theorycrafting of making 90% of the dam sent has on live with same geared gwf on test, we are looking so forward to you teaching us ).
Best
Plz enlighten us with your only loose 5% dps as sent with your new build, we are eager to see you add anything of value.
Well.. it says.... And you quoted it... " And even then most don't have a chance." Meaning even if they out gear and skill me, they most of the time don't have a chance...
What are you even talking about :rolleyes:
all you are doing is bragging without any kind of proof so this is all i have to say: Gz and i hope all of us may find an inspiration in your amazing talent.