Reduce the speed of each hit by 60%, and double the damage of each hit or MORE! Right now my tool tip damage says "565-678" on Sure Strike.
My GF Crushing Surge says "1279-1522" how is it a BIG 2h weapon deals 1/3rd the damage?
My TR says "1177-1418" HECK CLOUD OF STEEL says "549-661"
So your telling me, a 2h Sword in your face attack deals about the same damage as a small dagger thrown from a distance?!?! ?!?!?!?!?!?!??!
I get Sure Strike has a fast attack - so slow it down ALOT but beef up the damage ALOT! (Sure stats affect the above, but THAT MUCH?!) Its ridiculous.
If you SLOW down Sure Strike by even 50%, But give it like 3-4x the damage! This at will should say something around, "1600-1900" More than the GF at will thats forsure...
I mean Look at what happens when I take off weapons:
Sure Strike should be on par with Crushing Surge or ATLEAST Cleave which is 127-127...
Again I realize stats come into play here... But that is rather silly its that big a difference.
I actually am starting to wonder if ALL at will damage was boosted on GWFs if this would fix a major part of their issue in both PVP and PVE.
I mean Heck Wicked Strike is 52-52 with no weapon for heavens sake! Its speed is VERY slow AND damage is reduced based on targets hit...
Just TEsted a FULL charged Reaping Strike on IWD mobs and its doing about the same as my Sure Strike damage, but it takes a few seconds to charge up - How does that help in aoe fights? I can spam Sure Strike and get 4 hits in 2 seconds or charge for 2 seconds and hit 4-5 mobs for about the same damage?! If I have an AOE at will It should be a clear advantage to use that in AOE fights over my single target - not to mention the final hit can hit multiple?
It makes no sense.
NOW is the time to fix these things if your looking at them Crush!
HELL NO!
i wouldnt even play GWF if at will was thaaat slow i do rather keep the dmg at current atk speed instead.
Yep, hard to figure why the devs did not raise the base damage of weapons/atwills/encounters/dailies instead of coming up with this over-elaborate construction of 20 or 40 stacks. Of course a 2h sword should deliver more damage than a 1h sword or a dagger.
GCrush keeps repeating that DG was too high, but hey that's what all the community said from the beginning, and after all who are the guys who implemented the DG boost in mod2?
GWF needs direct damage, base damage, something in line with what a Melee DPS class should be. Not yet another indirect addition with a not-DnD, counter-intuitive, situational building of stacks, a system that looks good only on paper.
HELL NO!
i wouldnt even play GWF if at will was thaaat slow i do rather keep the dmg at current atk speed instead.
Its just an idea to get across a concept. Just asking for flat buffs across the board rarely bodes well.
I think of it like this...
The lighter the weapon the faster you should be able to swing it and the less damage PER swing it should deal correct? I mean being "realistic" is the argument why GWF AOE at wills have diminished damage for additional targets hit...
So it SHOULD be TR - fast hitting smaller daggers. (I wont get into how they have 2 here) - again just a concept
GF - one hand sword, not AS high top end, slower than TR but higher at will dmg.
GWF - 2h GREATWEAPON - Hits like a truck, much slower than both the above.
I would SUGGEST, GWF attack speed can mirror that of a GF (another fighter) which each at will is THREE successive attacks, but slightly slower.
Currently the GWF at will attacks LIKE a "dagger" its fast and hits like a wet noodle. I would DEFINITELY be more interested in a slower attacks that hits like a truck.
Reaping Strike should hit LIKE "aimed shot" for hunters, I mean they are similar....
Sure Strike should be slowed down - maybe 40% is too much, maybe just slow it down 25% but its hard to ask for a "realistic" effect in making it hot for like 1500+ AND having it really fast and 4 hits.... Thats just flat OP.
Making it half the speed, but hits 3x as hard - now thats more realistic AND a DPS boost, however you also lose mobility so its a tradeoff.
1 - see all these stacks + bf start working properly with the critical ... and I hope this "bug" is also not fixed in some class win another super buff.
2 - the end of secret nerfs, as canceling the sure strike this mysterious unstoppable that seems down fast in combat.
established a point where things are what they should be and not what it seems, will be possible to give a legitimate feedback, including the losses or disadvantages are some compensation.
which is irreducible is that no melee class is adapted to the new content, which is a paradox given the thousands of complaints about the designe of the dungeons which disadvantage a certain papers like a defender.
Unstoppable Recovery(heal 5% hp when activating unstoppable) not decrease from Healing Depression. Gwf with 40-45k hp will be heal at 2-2.2k hp every time, when activating unstoppable. And i think gwf has a lot of deflection: Scale Agility - 5%; Master at Arms - 2-10%;Bravery(passive) - 9%. It's not fair, when class have 24% deflect from passive and feats.
Unstoppable Recovery(heal 5% hp when activating unstoppable) not decrease from Healing Depression. Gwf with 40-45k hp will be heal at 2-2.2k hp every time, when activating unstoppable. And i think gwf has a lot of deflection: Scale Agility - 5%; Master at Arms - 2-10%;Bravery(passive) - 9%. It's not fair, when class have 24% deflect from passive and feats.
Yeap, let's turn GWF into non-damaging defenseless punching dummy once again. They already did first part of it.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
In Domination PvP with Hotenow/Rivenscar Ruins? I'd say they are definitely lower then what they were, depending on build/skill level of course.
In Open World Icewind Dale PvP? My testing is showing them to still be competitive, IMO.
Disclaimer: I am NOT a PvP Expert. I'm just a guy who has played a lot of GWF in PvE/PvP on live and Test Shard, that's all.
I guess it depends on what you mean by competitive....
For Hotenow/Rivenscare the only reason they were OP on LIVE (and still behind a well played HR/TR) is because they could face tank alot of damage and dish out alot of damage.
Deep Gash nerf and SOS nerf essentially cut Sents damage on average around 35%+. So now Sentinels are just facetanks who cant do anything. Sure they can TRY and contest however now that they cant 1v1 down a HR/TR/DC/GF - its pretty easy to stalemate them - considering there are alot of TR/HRs Sents basically just lost their value added as a backcapper.
In Zone PVP: Again sure they can facetank, however their damage (again) is so pitiful they wont really be able to do alot. In fact the only saving grace right now for Sents is the Blacksmith companion because his damage reflection is so high, a Sent can pray that they just outlive their opponent enough to have blacksmith reflect enough damage back for a competitive match.
I took my Sent GWF who ROCKS atm on live and tested him in zone pvp against an HR. I couldnt even out DPS his self healing from the 4/4 set. I played him match after after - absolutely pathetic.
I swapped over to Destroyer and it was night and day difference. I lost a little tankiness, but my damage output was (seemed to me) double. The HR was like "wtf did you do" because it actually was a competitive fight.
So what I would say is:
Sentinels really are dead...
If you are a GWF your only real hope in being effective means rolling Destroyer. While this may be viable in Zone PVP. I have yet to test in Domination.
Considering the OPness of HRs and TRs at this point, I dont see what a Dest GWF could bring to the table in a highly competitive matchup that would really help the game. Maybe they will pick up the "roam DPS" roll since hey are somewhat hard to CC, and now their damage is higher? I dont know....
Thats just my experience playing GWF both on LIVE and on PTR....
that will be 15% dodge and 10% dmg reduction... that is not rly a little
well you can still get the 5% deflect if you want (I didnt) and the other feat is only 10% max stacks. your also forgetting the 5AC which is 2.5% DR.
So 15% deflect and more like 12.5% DR.... BUt in the grand scheme of things, it matters much less than you think. With unstoppable putting you well over the top of Dim Returns as a Sent, Now im fairly close to the cap as a Destroyer.
Factor in tenacity ontop of that though and the difference isnt much THAT much.
Plus the fact that roar and takedown have less CD, means you prone more often means you take damage less often. Ontop of that Roar gives determination which allows you to pop unstoppable more often so....
If we played a game of "sit still and face tank" you would notice a big difference. But if you played a game of 1v1 - the Destroyer will win hands down because the damage output he gets over Sents COMPARED to the added DR Sents get over Destroyers is not even a comparison.
0
silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
So what I would say is:
Sentinels really are dead...
If you are a GWF your only real hope in being effective means rolling Destroyer. While this may be viable in Zone PVP. I have yet to test in Domination.
So basically they broke the Sentinel Path and its entirely useless from a practical standpoint for how the game actually gets played... but did achieve their goal to make the Destroyer path work correctly now... and in essence... instead of giving each a unique identity and role... acheived nothing but fixing one and breaking another.
Just as I suspected they'd REALLY end up doing the minute I heard it.
Yeah that's totally "fixed".
You'd swear the guys who do these kinds of things don't even play the game, they just throw darts a board somewhere and take wild guesses.
So basically they broke the Sentinel Path and its entirely useless from a practical standpoint for how the game actually gets played... but did achieve their goal to make the Destroyer path work correctly now... and in essence... instead of giving each a unique identity and role... acheived nothing but fixing one and breaking another.
Just as I suspected they'd REALLY end up doing the minute I heard it.
Yeah that's totally "fixed".
You'd swear the guys who do these kinds of things don't even play the game, they just throw darts a board somewhere and take wild guesses.
Yeah you really nailed it... Well I guess from one perspective IF the goal was:
Instagator path: worthless pile of dung.
Destroyer path: Decent damage dealer
Sentinel path: face tanks well but cant equip 2H GreatWeapons, just wet fun noodles - like the ones you play in a pool with.
Then ya I guess they "fixed" it....
The issue is that since Deep Gash and SOS were nerfed so hard, back "inline" with what they should be, it just made Sent/Insta that much more UN-viable.
What they need to do is compensate Sentinels in the area of more damage and provide more utility abilities for Instigators.
So again, what this could easily look like is:
INSTIGATOR:
Tier 1) SOTS - Fine, leave it at 5% that makes sense to me.
Tier 1) Fleet Footed - The 4e says this just gives pure Run Speed. So, Make this a pure run speed % Something like 5% or even 8%.
Tier 3) Allied Opportunity SHOULD be - Mighty Leap and Not So Fast deal 50% more damage. Mighty Leap now PRONES targets hit with the AOE. Not so Fast slows targets by 30% and lasts .4/.8/1.2/1.6/2s longer.
Tier 3) Nimble Runner - Sprint and Charge grant 25% deflect chance (up from 10%) and you gain 10% more stamina recovery. This makes Sprint a viable defense now for Instigator.
Tier 4) Group Assault - ALL At Wills deal an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage AND no longer lose damage based on number of targets hit. - This would be a significant DPS boost for PVE!
Tier 4) Crippling Strike - Boost this to 80% and 6 seconds.
Tier 5 (CAPSTONE) - Instigators Vengeance - This should be: Increase damage by 5% upon RECEIVING damage, stacks 5 times (20% boost - to compete with a 40% Destroyer capstone). Lasts 6 seconds (is refreshed upon receiving damage).
DESTROYER:
Assuming the current LIVE build
SENTINEL:
Tier 2) Powerful Challenge (This was some of the issue why Sents were OP in PVP) - Grants 15% Critical Severity and critical strikes deal an additional 25% Threat to marked targets.
Tier 3) Grudge Style - ALL at wills have a increased 5% chance to crit and generate an additional 25% threat.
Tier 3) Intimidation - This is worthless because the two encounters are worthless... Beef up the encounters and this will work.
Daring Shout, This should replicate Enforced Threat - AOE damager
Come and Get it, This needs to be a quick animation with BIG "pull" effects as well as maybe a 1 second Daze at the end for CC AS WELL AS a damager. (Because of the nature of 3 encounters, nobody slots utility encounters)
Tier 4) Master at Arms - This should be a damage bonus (Sents NEED it) Increases damage by 2% for each stack of weapon master - still gives 5AC. (10% dmg boost + 2.5% DR)
Tier 4) Defiance - Your DAILY powers deal an additional 10% damage and 25% more threat AND your defense is increased by 25% for 6 seconds.
Tier 5 (CAPSTONE) Sent Aegis - Increased Defense by 20% AND all incoming healing by 30% (has other synergies).
Something along these lines would make the builds MORE like intended.
This gives Instagators some attractive abilities, Gives Sents a little more damage and alot of agro gain abilities!
Overall, I think these would bring the classes inline with what the ideal is...
0
lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited May 2014
The main problem is everyone comparing the GWF dmg with the CW which is obviously unbalanced, in mod 2 we have (or had) two good dpsers CW and GWF, the gwf is being taken to a lower level in damage but still higher than every other class except the cw which will be also fixed, meaning that both will have still high dps but there will be not a huge difference in comparison to another class.
I.E: Right now, any dungeon, total dps:
GWF 20m, CW 19m, tr/hr 8m, GF 6m, DC 3m.
Now once the GWF and CW receive their respective fixes, reworks, w/e
GWF/CW 12m, tr/hr 10m, GF 8m, DC 5m.
Because the GWF and the CW won't have the huge dps as it is now in the live server, the other classes will be able to deal more damage (enemies will last longer because they receive less damage) a GWF or a CW won't kill a whole group of enemies by himself, the whole party will be required.
So every suggestion done in this thread is like: GWF dmg sucks now bla bla, we have to keep it close to the CW so buff this and that makes no sense because as soon as we realise that once both classes get their damage cut by almost half and we are still in the top, we won't even notice the nerf (which is actually a fix, we have to accept this).
...dungeons and foes were never really designed around players being able to deal as much damage as Wizards and GWFs deal on live currently. *Note* Wizard is also getting changes soon...
This supports what I just wrote.
I just hope that the devs could be able to bring the fixes for both CW and GWF together for the Mod3 and not just for the GWF, otherwise there would be a huge imbalance.
The issue is that since Deep Gash and SOS were nerfed so hard, back "inline" with what they should be, it just made Sent/Insta that much more UN-viable...
Instagator path: worthless pile of dung.
Destroyer path: Decent damage dealer
Sentinel path: face tanks well but cant equip 2H GreatWeapons, just wet fun noodles - like the ones you play in a pool with.
SO they basically hosed everything up even worse trying to "fix" it when they just should have left well enough alone in the first place instead of making the situation even worse than before... yeah that seems a common thread here...
I do wonder if these guys have any clue as to how their own game actually works on the ground floor. I bet they think this "change" is suddenly and mysteriously going to make GFs wanted in parties...
LOL! Talk about missing the point entirely... WHY in the hell would anyone invite want to GFs when theres NOTHING in the dungeons to tank... not even boss mobs, and ONLY mass mobs thrown at you repeatedly which is makes a GF completely useless because the class cannot hold agro in mass mob situations or do that job....
Its the wrong tool for the job and always has been.
Guess what the right tool for the job was... and still is likely to be... GWFs.
Great, you just shortened the handle of your screwdriver to make it harder for it to screw things in, but all you have in your dungeons are STILL just a bunch of screws... you're wrench STILL won't get used because there's no Fn nuts to ratchet in.
And guess what... when they figure this one out... and ACTUALLY get it right... they'll have just hosed everything else.... and it will STILL be causing them problems... because they just made this move which made the situation even worse. And they will be standing in shoes of their own making ONCE AGAIN.
gf vs cw/ Icewind aside, if all these boosts damage begin to take into account the critical - without any new surprise or reconsideration in buffs - the destroyer is in an interesting position.
greater damage than current - with the disadvantage of time - and without accumulating functions, either as defender or debuffer. in other words, any crying on the forums will be purposeless.
The main problem is everyone comparing the GWF dmg with the CW which is obviously unbalanced, in mod 2 we have (or had) two good dpsers CW and GWF, the gwf is being taken to a lower level in damage but still higher than every other class except the cw which will be also fixed, meaning that both will have still high dps but there will be not a huge difference in comparison to another class.
I.E: Right now, any dungeon, total dps:
GWF 20m, CW 19m, tr/hr 8m, GF 6m, DC 3m.
Now once the GWF and CW receive their respective fixes, reworks, w/e
GWF/CW 12m, tr/hr 10m, GF 8m, DC 5m.
Because the GWF and the CW won't have the huge dps as it is now in the live server, the other classes will be able to deal more damage (enemies will last longer because they receive less damage) a GWF or a CW won't kill a whole group of enemies by himself, the whole party will be required.
So every suggestion done in this thread is like: GWF dmg sucks now bla bla, we have to keep it close to the CW so buff this and that makes no sense because as soon as we realise that once both classes get their damage cut by almost half and we are still in the top, we won't even notice the nerf (which is actually a fix, we have to accept this).
This supports what I just wrote.
I just hope that the devs could be able to bring the fixes for both CW and GWF together for the Mod3 and not just for the GWF, otherwise there would be a huge imbalance.
Most of my opinions and posts are PVP related. It seems your focus is on PVE.
Quite honestly, even if they bring things back "inline" as you propose, this wont and doesnt fix the viability of the Sent class in BOTH PVE and PVP considering a DC healing can strip agro off a Sent tank.
Ontop of that again, Sents in pvp worthless....
So while your focus seems to be on damage output in PVE and how "once they nerf CWs itll be fair" that really doesnt sound promising to me about the class viability as a whole - where your looking at PVE Dest builds...
So lets not forget the GWFs other trees that are mainly being talked about here...
ayroux, as someone who plays in top premades and mains a GWF, I disagree with you entirely. Feel free to message me @risendragon and let's fight some on preview. Sentinel is not trash in pvp for module 3. There are plenty of other options other than Deep Gash and Student of the Sword. The DPS from GWF did not come from Deep Gash. On average it was 10-15%. Student of the Sword was a 45% defense reduction ~9% DR reduction. So that was a buff of 9% damage.. now that's 4%. So we lose 10-15% total damage output utilizing the same feats and powers.
10-15% total damage output does suck, but it is not gamebreaking. There are plenty of other options, enchants, and builds that are very viable. The 'normal' build may no longer be as great as it was, but there are builds atm that were a 5% differential from what the normal build was. Those builds become viable. So if you feat your last 10 paragon feats different, you'll see your damage back around where you like it.
TL;DR: Shut up and theorycraft like the rest of us and stop whining.
ayroux, as someone who plays in top premades and mains a GWF, I disagree with you entirely. Feel free to message me @risendragon and let's fight some on preview. Sentinel is not trash in pvp for module 3. There are plenty of other options other than Deep Gash and Student of the Sword. The DPS from GWF did not come from Deep Gash. On average it was 10-15%. Student of the Sword was a 45% defense reduction ~9% DR reduction. So that was a buff of 9% damage.. now that's 4%. So we lose 10-15% total damage output utilizing the same feats and powers.
10-15% total damage output does suck, but it is not gamebreaking. There are plenty of other options, enchants, and builds that are very viable. The 'normal' build may no longer be as great as it was, but there are builds atm that were a 5% differential from what the normal build was. Those builds become viable. So if you feat your last 10 paragon feats different, you'll see your damage back around where you like it.
TL;DR: Shut up and theorycraft like the rest of us and stop whining.
3 small things here...
1. Ayroux has been advocate for some nerfing of gwf in several ways in pvp before and cant be seen as some that just want gwfs to continue be op imho.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
3. I challange you to run a full dungeon same party in test as in live and try to come up with about same total dam- it just wont happend.
There will allways be some that want to stand out calling other cry babys telling them that all is fine and i found the way around it couse am better, more inventfull etc etc etc.
We had em before module 2 saying that gwf was all fine and dandy and could out dps any cw if they just did things right and you just joined that team.
Am not saying gwf was fine compared to tr gf hr before and that some changes to put them more in pair with those classes is a bad thing (leaving cw out of this as they seem to be a special case for the devs).
But the total of the nerf like it is now... well lets just say gwf wont be the most popular class in either pvp or pve ...
I guess it depends on what you mean by competitive....
For Hotenow/Rivenscare the only reason they were OP on LIVE (and still behind a well played HR/TR) is because they could face tank alot of damage and dish out alot of damage.
Deep Gash nerf and SOS nerf essentially cut Sents damage on average around 35%+. So now Sentinels are just facetanks who cant do anything. Sure they can TRY and contest however now that they cant 1v1 down a HR/TR/DC/GF - its pretty easy to stalemate them - considering there are alot of TR/HRs Sents basically just lost their value added as a backcapper.
In Zone PVP: Again sure they can facetank, however their damage (again) is so pitiful they wont really be able to do alot. In fact the only saving grace right now for Sents is the Blacksmith companion because his damage reflection is so high, a Sent can pray that they just outlive their opponent enough to have blacksmith reflect enough damage back for a competitive match.
I took my Sent GWF who ROCKS atm on live and tested him in zone pvp against an HR. I couldnt even out DPS his self healing from the 4/4 set. I played him match after after - absolutely pathetic.
I swapped over to Destroyer and it was night and day difference. I lost a little tankiness, but my damage output was (seemed to me) double. The HR was like "wtf did you do" because it actually was a competitive fight.
So what I would say is:
Sentinels really are dead...
If you are a GWF your only real hope in being effective means rolling Destroyer. While this may be viable in Zone PVP. I have yet to test in Domination.
Considering the OPness of HRs and TRs at this point, I dont see what a Dest GWF could bring to the table in a highly competitive matchup that would really help the game. Maybe they will pick up the "roam DPS" roll since hey are somewhat hard to CC, and now their damage is higher? I dont know....
Thats just my experience playing GWF both on LIVE and on PTR....
i would not say that damage of destroyer is now higher in pvp my dps gwf could kill low hp class with just frontline and ibs comobo ty to old deep gash and 3-4k dps per sec after ibs but now we no longer have it and in pvp u wont have 20 stacks of destroyer since when u use unstopple as dps gwf this means i will die very soon most of time even before end of it
as for sentinel they could use some more nerfs since they will be still far superior in dps to dps str+dex sword master or iron vangourd by far if have con+str and are iron vangourd sentinels
insitigator is the biggest loser of mod 3 update it no longer do any dps and lost huge part of buff up for team with sos nerf so mostly they killed build allmost noone used before i for example love it giveng combat advantge to team and sos debuff buff did make it solid for team and it had good dps to
as for sentinel they could use some more nerfs since they will be still far superior in dps to dps str+dex sword master or iron vangourd by far if have con+str and are iron vangourd sentinels
Sry but i dont feel op at all in pvp. When i face proper pvp builds i am having alot of trouble: HR- i cant even get him under 80% hp, lone wolf with 4 piece bonus is just insanely strong, TR- a proper played perma can kill me as well pretty easy, VS DC/GF we can look at one another all day or till a CW comes and blows me to pieces. Speaking of CW: as u;ve seen from the video blacksheep posted, they are not the pushovers that most think and now with the dps loss i dont think we can kill them at all.
The cap in destroyer is useless in pvp as well, no one will stay near a gwf when it is in unstoppable.
I found the biggest problem I had with GWF especially PvP wise was that every single one had the same choices in every slot, there was/probably still is no real variation. I think spec tree wise it may of been a good idea to decrease the damage sentinel can get but increase the amount of defense / flat resistance %'s it may be able to get somehow, I never understood why sentinel had such high deflect. Surely instigator should then be made as a deflect tank but with much less base resistance than on sentinel. Then destroyer should be DPS based without either of the two but with the ability to 3 shot my HR with a stun/knock lock like the sentinel GWF somehow can already do. You just want that variation there to make things more interesting, I don't see why instigator has such bad ending specs, there should be a way to get more deflect by getting to the end of that tree.
So now I have 3 mules who used to be high end pvp chars. Cryptic, you fail... you just fail at game making. I created a GF solely for pvp and you made it noncompetitive, so I created a CW and you made it noncompetitive and now you made my GWF noncompetitive. Do you want me to stop playing? I don't like playing TR or HR in pvp so why do you leave me with a choice of either playing classes I hate and staying competitive or playing classes I love and being absolutely obsolete and not serving any purpose whatsoever and 100% reliant on the TRs and HRs on my team. The only solution I can see so far for myself is to put my playtime on hold until you balance everything.
Sry but i dont feel op at all in pvp. When i face proper pvp builds i am having alot of trouble: HR- i cant even get him under 80% hp, lone wolf with 4 piece bonus is just insanely strong, TR- a proper played perma can kill me as well pretty easy, VS DC/GF we can look at one another all day or till a CW comes and blows me to pieces. Speaking of CW: as u;ve seen from the video blacksheep posted, they are not the pushovers that most think and now with the dps loss i dont think we can kill them at all.
The cap in destroyer is useless in pvp as well, no one will stay near a gwf when it is in unstoppable.
I have a GWF. It is STOOOOPID OP in PvP... They are absurd.
TR has an advantage for sure and HRs can be pretty **** tough, but only when played really well.
GWF you need a heartbeat to do very very well. I'm not going to even talk about the top tier GWFs that have been playing for a while.... Those guys... Well **** those guys! =P
Anyway, this is a feedback thread so I'm gonna get outa here, sorry for the derail!
So now I have 3 mules who used to be high end pvp chars. Cryptic, you fail... you just fail at game making. I created a GF solely for pvp and you made it noncompetitive, so I created a CW and you made it noncompetitive and now you made my GWF noncompetitive. Do you want me to stop playing? I don't like playing TR or HR in pvp so why do you leave me with a choice of either playing classes I hate and staying competitive or playing classes I love and being absolutely obsolete and not serving any purpose whatsoever and 100% reliant on the TRs and HRs on my team. The only solution I can see so far for myself is to put my playtime on hold until you balance everything.
So basically cryptic fails because you personally can't roflstomp others as much as you used to?
Comments
i wouldnt even play GWF if at will was thaaat slow i do rather keep the dmg at current atk speed instead.
GCrush keeps repeating that DG was too high, but hey that's what all the community said from the beginning, and after all who are the guys who implemented the DG boost in mod2?
GWF needs direct damage, base damage, something in line with what a Melee DPS class should be. Not yet another indirect addition with a not-DnD, counter-intuitive, situational building of stacks, a system that looks good only on paper.
Its just an idea to get across a concept. Just asking for flat buffs across the board rarely bodes well.
I think of it like this...
The lighter the weapon the faster you should be able to swing it and the less damage PER swing it should deal correct? I mean being "realistic" is the argument why GWF AOE at wills have diminished damage for additional targets hit...
So it SHOULD be TR - fast hitting smaller daggers. (I wont get into how they have 2 here) - again just a concept
GF - one hand sword, not AS high top end, slower than TR but higher at will dmg.
GWF - 2h GREATWEAPON - Hits like a truck, much slower than both the above.
I would SUGGEST, GWF attack speed can mirror that of a GF (another fighter) which each at will is THREE successive attacks, but slightly slower.
Currently the GWF at will attacks LIKE a "dagger" its fast and hits like a wet noodle. I would DEFINITELY be more interested in a slower attacks that hits like a truck.
Reaping Strike should hit LIKE "aimed shot" for hunters, I mean they are similar....
Sure Strike should be slowed down - maybe 40% is too much, maybe just slow it down 25% but its hard to ask for a "realistic" effect in making it hot for like 1500+ AND having it really fast and 4 hits.... Thats just flat OP.
Making it half the speed, but hits 3x as hard - now thats more realistic AND a DPS boost, however you also lose mobility so its a tradeoff.
1 - see all these stacks + bf start working properly with the critical ... and I hope this "bug" is also not fixed in some class win another super buff.
2 - the end of secret nerfs, as canceling the sure strike this mysterious unstoppable that seems down fast in combat.
established a point where things are what they should be and not what it seems, will be possible to give a legitimate feedback, including the losses or disadvantages are some compensation.
which is irreducible is that no melee class is adapted to the new content, which is a paradox given the thousands of complaints about the designe of the dungeons which disadvantage a certain papers like a defender.
Yeap, let's turn GWF into non-damaging defenseless punching dummy once again. They already did first part of it.
Sorry but Sentinel is complete trash now, nobody will run it because they cant deal any damage or kill anyone.
minus tr/hr/gf and dc
In Open World Icewind Dale PvP? My testing is showing them to still be competitive, IMO.
Disclaimer: I am NOT a PvP Expert. I'm just a guy who has played a lot of GWF in PvE/PvP on live and Test Shard, that's all.
I guess it depends on what you mean by competitive....
For Hotenow/Rivenscare the only reason they were OP on LIVE (and still behind a well played HR/TR) is because they could face tank alot of damage and dish out alot of damage.
Deep Gash nerf and SOS nerf essentially cut Sents damage on average around 35%+. So now Sentinels are just facetanks who cant do anything. Sure they can TRY and contest however now that they cant 1v1 down a HR/TR/DC/GF - its pretty easy to stalemate them - considering there are alot of TR/HRs Sents basically just lost their value added as a backcapper.
In Zone PVP: Again sure they can facetank, however their damage (again) is so pitiful they wont really be able to do alot. In fact the only saving grace right now for Sents is the Blacksmith companion because his damage reflection is so high, a Sent can pray that they just outlive their opponent enough to have blacksmith reflect enough damage back for a competitive match.
I took my Sent GWF who ROCKS atm on live and tested him in zone pvp against an HR. I couldnt even out DPS his self healing from the 4/4 set. I played him match after after - absolutely pathetic.
I swapped over to Destroyer and it was night and day difference. I lost a little tankiness, but my damage output was (seemed to me) double. The HR was like "wtf did you do" because it actually was a competitive fight.
So what I would say is:
Sentinels really are dead...
If you are a GWF your only real hope in being effective means rolling Destroyer. While this may be viable in Zone PVP. I have yet to test in Domination.
Considering the OPness of HRs and TRs at this point, I dont see what a Dest GWF could bring to the table in a highly competitive matchup that would really help the game. Maybe they will pick up the "roam DPS" roll since hey are somewhat hard to CC, and now their damage is higher? I dont know....
Thats just my experience playing GWF both on LIVE and on PTR....
that will be 15% dodge and 10% dmg reduction... that is not rly a little
well you can still get the 5% deflect if you want (I didnt) and the other feat is only 10% max stacks. your also forgetting the 5AC which is 2.5% DR.
So 15% deflect and more like 12.5% DR.... BUt in the grand scheme of things, it matters much less than you think. With unstoppable putting you well over the top of Dim Returns as a Sent, Now im fairly close to the cap as a Destroyer.
Factor in tenacity ontop of that though and the difference isnt much THAT much.
Plus the fact that roar and takedown have less CD, means you prone more often means you take damage less often. Ontop of that Roar gives determination which allows you to pop unstoppable more often so....
If we played a game of "sit still and face tank" you would notice a big difference. But if you played a game of 1v1 - the Destroyer will win hands down because the damage output he gets over Sents COMPARED to the added DR Sents get over Destroyers is not even a comparison.
So basically they broke the Sentinel Path and its entirely useless from a practical standpoint for how the game actually gets played... but did achieve their goal to make the Destroyer path work correctly now... and in essence... instead of giving each a unique identity and role... acheived nothing but fixing one and breaking another.
Just as I suspected they'd REALLY end up doing the minute I heard it.
Yeah that's totally "fixed".
You'd swear the guys who do these kinds of things don't even play the game, they just throw darts a board somewhere and take wild guesses.
Yeah you really nailed it... Well I guess from one perspective IF the goal was:
Instagator path: worthless pile of dung.
Destroyer path: Decent damage dealer
Sentinel path: face tanks well but cant equip 2H GreatWeapons, just wet fun noodles - like the ones you play in a pool with.
Then ya I guess they "fixed" it....
The issue is that since Deep Gash and SOS were nerfed so hard, back "inline" with what they should be, it just made Sent/Insta that much more UN-viable.
What they need to do is compensate Sentinels in the area of more damage and provide more utility abilities for Instigators.
So again, what this could easily look like is:
INSTIGATOR:
Tier 1) SOTS - Fine, leave it at 5% that makes sense to me.
Tier 1) Fleet Footed - The 4e says this just gives pure Run Speed. So, Make this a pure run speed % Something like 5% or even 8%.
Tier 3) Allied Opportunity SHOULD be - Mighty Leap and Not So Fast deal 50% more damage. Mighty Leap now PRONES targets hit with the AOE. Not so Fast slows targets by 30% and lasts .4/.8/1.2/1.6/2s longer.
Tier 3) Nimble Runner - Sprint and Charge grant 25% deflect chance (up from 10%) and you gain 10% more stamina recovery. This makes Sprint a viable defense now for Instigator.
Tier 4) Group Assault - ALL At Wills deal an additional 2/4/6/8/10% damage AND no longer lose damage based on number of targets hit. - This would be a significant DPS boost for PVE!
Tier 4) Crippling Strike - Boost this to 80% and 6 seconds.
Tier 5 (CAPSTONE) - Instigators Vengeance - This should be: Increase damage by 5% upon RECEIVING damage, stacks 5 times (20% boost - to compete with a 40% Destroyer capstone). Lasts 6 seconds (is refreshed upon receiving damage).
DESTROYER:
Assuming the current LIVE build
SENTINEL:
Tier 2) Powerful Challenge (This was some of the issue why Sents were OP in PVP) - Grants 15% Critical Severity and critical strikes deal an additional 25% Threat to marked targets.
Tier 3) Grudge Style - ALL at wills have a increased 5% chance to crit and generate an additional 25% threat.
Tier 3) Intimidation - This is worthless because the two encounters are worthless... Beef up the encounters and this will work.
Daring Shout, This should replicate Enforced Threat - AOE damager
Come and Get it, This needs to be a quick animation with BIG "pull" effects as well as maybe a 1 second Daze at the end for CC AS WELL AS a damager. (Because of the nature of 3 encounters, nobody slots utility encounters)
Tier 4) Master at Arms - This should be a damage bonus (Sents NEED it) Increases damage by 2% for each stack of weapon master - still gives 5AC. (10% dmg boost + 2.5% DR)
Tier 4) Defiance - Your DAILY powers deal an additional 10% damage and 25% more threat AND your defense is increased by 25% for 6 seconds.
Tier 5 (CAPSTONE) Sent Aegis - Increased Defense by 20% AND all incoming healing by 30% (has other synergies).
Something along these lines would make the builds MORE like intended.
This gives Instagators some attractive abilities, Gives Sents a little more damage and alot of agro gain abilities!
Overall, I think these would bring the classes inline with what the ideal is...
I.E: Right now, any dungeon, total dps:
GWF 20m, CW 19m, tr/hr 8m, GF 6m, DC 3m.
Now once the GWF and CW receive their respective fixes, reworks, w/e
GWF/CW 12m, tr/hr 10m, GF 8m, DC 5m.
Because the GWF and the CW won't have the huge dps as it is now in the live server, the other classes will be able to deal more damage (enemies will last longer because they receive less damage) a GWF or a CW won't kill a whole group of enemies by himself, the whole party will be required.
So every suggestion done in this thread is like: GWF dmg sucks now bla bla, we have to keep it close to the CW so buff this and that makes no sense because as soon as we realise that once both classes get their damage cut by almost half and we are still in the top, we won't even notice the nerf (which is actually a fix, we have to accept this).
This supports what I just wrote.
I just hope that the devs could be able to bring the fixes for both CW and GWF together for the Mod3 and not just for the GWF, otherwise there would be a huge imbalance.
SO they basically hosed everything up even worse trying to "fix" it when they just should have left well enough alone in the first place instead of making the situation even worse than before... yeah that seems a common thread here...
I do wonder if these guys have any clue as to how their own game actually works on the ground floor. I bet they think this "change" is suddenly and mysteriously going to make GFs wanted in parties...
LOL! Talk about missing the point entirely... WHY in the hell would anyone invite want to GFs when theres NOTHING in the dungeons to tank... not even boss mobs, and ONLY mass mobs thrown at you repeatedly which is makes a GF completely useless because the class cannot hold agro in mass mob situations or do that job....
Its the wrong tool for the job and always has been.
Guess what the right tool for the job was... and still is likely to be... GWFs.
Great, you just shortened the handle of your screwdriver to make it harder for it to screw things in, but all you have in your dungeons are STILL just a bunch of screws... you're wrench STILL won't get used because there's no Fn nuts to ratchet in.
And guess what... when they figure this one out... and ACTUALLY get it right... they'll have just hosed everything else.... and it will STILL be causing them problems... because they just made this move which made the situation even worse. And they will be standing in shoes of their own making ONCE AGAIN.
Wow... just wow...
greater damage than current - with the disadvantage of time - and without accumulating functions, either as defender or debuffer. in other words, any crying on the forums will be purposeless.
this is a little dream.
Most of my opinions and posts are PVP related. It seems your focus is on PVE.
Quite honestly, even if they bring things back "inline" as you propose, this wont and doesnt fix the viability of the Sent class in BOTH PVE and PVP considering a DC healing can strip agro off a Sent tank.
Ontop of that again, Sents in pvp worthless....
So while your focus seems to be on damage output in PVE and how "once they nerf CWs itll be fair" that really doesnt sound promising to me about the class viability as a whole - where your looking at PVE Dest builds...
So lets not forget the GWFs other trees that are mainly being talked about here...
10-15% total damage output does suck, but it is not gamebreaking. There are plenty of other options, enchants, and builds that are very viable. The 'normal' build may no longer be as great as it was, but there are builds atm that were a 5% differential from what the normal build was. Those builds become viable. So if you feat your last 10 paragon feats different, you'll see your damage back around where you like it.
TL;DR: Shut up and theorycraft like the rest of us and stop whining.
3 small things here...
1. Ayroux has been advocate for some nerfing of gwf in several ways in pvp before and cant be seen as some that just want gwfs to continue be op imho.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
3. I challange you to run a full dungeon same party in test as in live and try to come up with about same total dam- it just wont happend.
There will allways be some that want to stand out calling other cry babys telling them that all is fine and i found the way around it couse am better, more inventfull etc etc etc.
We had em before module 2 saying that gwf was all fine and dandy and could out dps any cw if they just did things right and you just joined that team.
Am not saying gwf was fine compared to tr gf hr before and that some changes to put them more in pair with those classes is a bad thing (leaving cw out of this as they seem to be a special case for the devs).
But the total of the nerf like it is now... well lets just say gwf wont be the most popular class in either pvp or pve ...
Best
i would not say that damage of destroyer is now higher in pvp my dps gwf could kill low hp class with just frontline and ibs comobo ty to old deep gash and 3-4k dps per sec after ibs but now we no longer have it and in pvp u wont have 20 stacks of destroyer since when u use unstopple as dps gwf this means i will die very soon most of time even before end of it
as for sentinel they could use some more nerfs since they will be still far superior in dps to dps str+dex sword master or iron vangourd by far if have con+str and are iron vangourd sentinels
insitigator is the biggest loser of mod 3 update it no longer do any dps and lost huge part of buff up for team with sos nerf so mostly they killed build allmost noone used before i for example love it giveng combat advantge to team and sos debuff buff did make it solid for team and it had good dps to
Sry but i dont feel op at all in pvp. When i face proper pvp builds i am having alot of trouble: HR- i cant even get him under 80% hp, lone wolf with 4 piece bonus is just insanely strong, TR- a proper played perma can kill me as well pretty easy, VS DC/GF we can look at one another all day or till a CW comes and blows me to pieces. Speaking of CW: as u;ve seen from the video blacksheep posted, they are not the pushovers that most think and now with the dps loss i dont think we can kill them at all.
The cap in destroyer is useless in pvp as well, no one will stay near a gwf when it is in unstoppable.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
I have a GWF. It is STOOOOPID OP in PvP... They are absurd.
TR has an advantage for sure and HRs can be pretty **** tough, but only when played really well.
GWF you need a heartbeat to do very very well. I'm not going to even talk about the top tier GWFs that have been playing for a while.... Those guys... Well **** those guys! =P
Anyway, this is a feedback thread so I'm gonna get outa here, sorry for the derail!
like what? lvl 20? full on greens? Pls at least play a bit more, get some gear and stop saying stupid things like this.
So basically cryptic fails because you personally can't roflstomp others as much as you used to?