The last two pages have spiraled way out of control.
Back to the feedback of the GWF changes:
- INSTA needs MAJOR buffs
- SENT needs better agro gain
- DEST seems pretty "ok" now from my perspective.
Once CWs get toned down - I am a little worried that this will make CWs even more popular because of the nature of the adds...
IE:
Group of 10 mobs - currently 1 CW can AOE all of them down opens room for other classes.
If "nerfed" to a target cap of 5-8, now two CWs will be required or "desired" so they can AOE down. This is the nature of the issue for PVE. Just for simplicity sake.
Once CWs get toned down - I am a little worried that this will make CWs even more popular because of the nature of the adds...
IE:
Group of 10 mobs - currently 1 CW can AOE all of them down opens room for other classes.
If "nerfed" to a target cap of 5-8, now two CWs will be required or "desired" so they can AOE down. This is the nature of the issue for PVE. Just for simplicity sake.
they shouldnt touch cw target caps, they should either reduce dmg/target or just reduce dmg on aoe skills and these op buffs on thaum
Rather see them introduce different mechanics to the game, no need to nerf the CW at all TBH....
If SOME groups of ads were smaller groups of mobs that NEEDED to be tanked... That type of thing would reduce the benefit of CWs.
If they ever thought of making some groups of mobs magic resistant - that would reduce CWs.
If they every thought to maybe just give more classes non-capped abilities as well - that would fix the issue...
There are alot of things that would address this... withouyt a nerf needed.
forget about tanking, tanking has no place in action mmorpg outside of boss fight anyway. they would need to remake all dungeons or completely make over GF to make it viable.
GF cant aoe tank because of how shield works. GF is made as a boss tank, he can deal with 1 target but is useless vs many targets cause of mob cc spam, its easier just to cc the mobs than to tank them. GWF would be much better aoe tank(though its more like damage soak than real tanking) cause of unstoppable but there is no way in hell sent can hold aggro with equally geared dps.
this game has way too much hard cc and it ruins every aspect of the game
and magic/phys resistant mobs is HAMSTER, why should i be forced to kick a friend out of party and get some random person because we cant do a dungeon without class X ?
forget about tanking, tanking has no place in action mmorpg outside of boss fight anyway. they would need to remake all dungeons or completely make over GF to make it viable.
GF cant aoe tank because of how shield works. GF is made as a boss tank, he can deal with 1 target but is useless vs many targets cause of mob cc spam, its easier just to cc the mobs than to tank them. GWF would be much better aoe tank(though its more like damage soak than real tanking) cause of unstoppable but there is no way in hell sent can hold aggro with equally geared dps.
this game has way too much hard cc and it ruins every aspect of the game
and magic/phys resistant mobs is HAMSTER, why should i be forced to kick a friend out of party and get some random person because we cant do a dungeon without class X ?
I agree with your first part. Which is why I suggested changing the GF in that thread.
For the magic resistant mobs - you wouldnt be kicking anybody. It just means you cant run DC 4CW groups..... Which should already never be the case.
If you bring GF - they are melee
Bring a Tr - melee
HR - melee/physical
GWF - melee
The only two that do magic damage are DC/CW - so I dont see your point....
and if my friends dont like cw and play hr/tr/gwf/gf we cant run dungeons ?
Did you never play pen and paper roleplay :-).
If you make up a group with only meele no wizzy you ofc go to the temple or wizzy tower and get/pay for some magic that allows you to hit those fell creature with weapons.
If a cw needs to get to some mobs which are immune/resistant to magic he has to hire mercs to help him, np.
Full melee party = quest guy/girl who imbues weapons with magic that allows you to do magic dam.
Full cw+dc party = funs spells that summons worriors/deamons/monsters that fight for them ( would actualy be a cool idea even if full cw+dc partys are what we are trying to avoid here ).
This is a fantasy game trust me only your imagination is the limit.
But if you have 6 classes compeating for 5 spots in a group and one of those classes takes 2-4 spots something is seriously wrong with the balance of the game......
ok , would be nice if certain enemies have different resistances to magic types, and even types of physical damage , which would make having a sword transformed into hammer was not a mere detail in time to face skeletons . But the point is : this is the project to another module . In this module now managed to totally undermine a ' gwf kamikaze " in view of the attack against melee enemies , forgetting , however, that are autonomous cw far longer .
Not the gwf that unbalances pve . He was self-employed , but, at least now, does not accumulate functions as well when our friend of jutsus .
therefore both challenges should be balanced , with the melee a little less dangerous than it is now , more and ranger .
It's too late for that ? As a mere tipster I think so .
So all I hope is that at least gwf keep doing old content as well as now, which includes maintaining and adjusting these buffs , perhaps improving the executioner style and giving to bf a smarter mechanical ( occurred to me that , being encounter one fixed value on the base damage , bring it is not a good deal and all the other encounters are multiplied by focused destroyer / destroyer porpose ) .
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Once CWs get toned down - I am a little worried that this will make CWs even more popular because of the nature of the adds...
IE:
Group of 10 mobs - currently 1 CW can AOE all of them down opens room for other classes.
If "nerfed" to a target cap of 5-8, now two CWs will be required or "desired" so they can AOE down. This is the nature of the issue for PVE. Just for simplicity sake.
That's really what it comes down to and why Nerfing either CWs or GWFs is a bad idea and will only make the situation worse.
These are the AoE classes, designed to take down your Mass Mob encounters, and why the GWF/CW combo works more efficiently than any other in these dungeons. Because that's all there are is Mass Mobs.
The GF and Rogue are single target damagers designed to take down large, powerful single targets that need to be tanked and DPS'd down. Right now there's almost none of these that can utilize that tank/rogue combo on. Ergo... they never get used, because they have no place, they're the wrong tool for the job. They will never be able to compete or even hold ground to a CW/GWF crew that has all the AoEs no matter what you do because they were never designed for it.
One has short range but stronger ones (GWF) the other has weaker ones but larger area (CW).
All it really takes is to make more Single Target encounters for the Tank/Rogue combo. So they can actually participate and have a role again. AND there's very little in the dungeons that even bothers to melee you In terms of Boss Mobs and Single target mobs.
If you fix that single thing, things will work and they'll have a role again... BUT... if you just nerfed your AoEers who take on the Mass mobs for you, people end up stacking a ton of them and squeezing out the Tank/Rogue in groups.
Because you need so many of them just to make the group efficient and survivable that the Single Target classes get squeezed out anyway
So you end up cutting your own throat because you thought you could shorten the handle of your screwdriver to make the wrench more useful... but all you've got in your dungeons a bunch of screws. So you accomplish nothing. And make the situation even worse on all the other classes.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
nope, never cared about them, this is an action mmorpg not pen and paper
Which is why its hard for many to understand these concepts.
Ok look... I'll explain why the GWF and CW are the only parties you see, and why they go togather like cheese and crackers in this environment.
As a CW I absolutely suck at single target damage, My class was never designed for it It was designed for Mass Mob AoEs. If you want that, you grab a Rogue. BUT... the GWF fills the holes in the CW very nicely in a mass mob situation. You can stack mobs up on them and they can take it a hell of a lot more than I can as a squishy mage.
They are pummeling the mass mob targets in numbers of 3-5 or anything within reach of their blade. I am pummeling 15-20... so long as they're on the other guy and not me. Plus... remember that single target damage weakness that CWs have? Well the GWF takes over once you get to those.... as their attacks are stronger than mine... and they were designed as a seconday tank, not as good as a GF, but close enough they can substitute.
Combine this with dungeons filled with Mass Mobs and togather there's nothing better.
A GF and a Rogue? They're completely worthless to me. What are they going to do... set up on ONE of the thousand mobs and kill it? The GWF is wiping them 3-5 at a time. AND the stronger the mobs I do worse on.... they can handle the Elite ones mixed in like its nothing as to where I'm having to nuke the stronger elites multiple times to drop them. AND my good AoEs don't even go off on single mobs.
And there's no way in hell a GF or Rogue are ever going to be able to because their class just not designed for mass mob encounters. And it takes so many of us AoErs to plow through the mass mobs there's no room left for the Rogue and GF anymore.
So nerfing GWFs OR CWs doesn't do a **** thing to make anything better OR even balance anything. It just makes Rogues and GFs more and more unwanted.
once the single target oriented classes start doing at least 70~80 % dmg of aoe classes(up from 30~50%) and cw is fixed to either do high dmg or cc(not both at same time) they will be viable since boss part is more important. the new dungeons are more single target friendly than the old ones.
and number of ppl you can get in party is limited so you cant just "take more cw" cause there are already 4 or 5 of them in the party
once the single target oriented classes start doing at least 70~80 % dmg of aoe classes(up from 30~50%) and cw is fixed to either do high dmg or cc(not both at same time) they will be viable since boss part is more important. the new dungeons are more single target friendly than the old ones.
and number of ppl you can get in party is limited so you cant just "take more cw" cause there are already 4 or 5 of them in the party
So what your saying is:
Nerf GWF/CWs to deal less damage, NOW single targets deal 70% of the damage AOE classes deal and now that CWs either do damage or CC not both that fixes the isssue?
The problem with this is, the new group comp will have 3 CWs - 1 for CC 2 for DPS, 1 TR for solo DPS and 1 DC.
They need to introduce mobs that MUST be tanked or it will wipe the group.
The issue is the tanks in this game just flat out suck for tanking in PVE...
Gwf with little damage volume = kick. enough to see the class that was kicking. until November this was the reality. ... or mimimi "run with the guild, I have no problem playing with my friends and doing dps against draco using my gwf 398673498673486k gs while my friend cw 3986739984674867k gs controls and kills everything with a breath. "
As the dps and not the debuff which gave a satisfactory position for the class, ok. can remove this additional function. but the gwf damage is not the key to imbalance. is a need for the class.
ps: the controversy over the pvp is unknown, so there is no reason to have anchors now.
then, there is not rational or reason for not nerf the class to be the key to balance. ie reverse the order of the solution. the imbalance in pve embraces and transcends the current condition of the class.
do not know if I report as a bug or just curiosity. sequent damage from hits are taking more damage is intentional?... is not bad lose cancelation in this terms...
They need to introduce mobs that MUST be tanked or it will wipe the group.
The issue is the tanks in this game just flat out suck for tanking in PVE...
I couldnt agree more with this. Strongs that have an anti-magic shell around them at about a 100' ft radius in which no spells can be cast is one good one. Mobs that do massive kickback when they take damage- like 300% kickback- would require low damage dealing high hp tanky characters to slowly bring them down. There are so many options.
The dungeons have one mechanic dump mobs on you. Cryptic is not going to go back and fix every dungeon and skirmish in the game so AE damage dealers will always be the most desirable class.
The solution is not nerf AE damage dealers its give the other classes some AE damage skills.
HRs were desirable for split shot, with the nerf they should get some others encounter abilities that do good AE damage. Traps or have thorn ward hit all targets in area ect.
TRs would be easy to fix. make path of blades hit all targets in area or other AE skills maybe poison cloud, fan of blades, caltrops anything. Give them decent AE dps and then they could switch to single target for bosses. this would make TRs desirable in grps.
Nerfing a class doesnt make other classes better and more desirable. Giving a class useful skills that help a grp, makes a class more desirable.
I couldnt agree more with this. Strongs that have an anti-magic shell around them at about a 100' ft radius in which no spells can be cast is one good one. Mobs that do massive kickback when they take damage- like 300% kickback- would require low damage dealing high hp tanky characters to slowly bring them down. There are so many options.
Another thing that would be interesting is "spell reflect" mobs. That during some "animation" are immune and actually reflect back any spells cast on them - this would make melee/physical damage more appealing in groups AND cause CWs to have to really watch out in PVE.
I dont mind CWs having amazing AOE damage, but when the entire PVE gameplay becomes CW or GTFO for PVE it really ruins the game...
I have alot of pvp buddies who rolled PVE CWs just to farm gear for their PVP toons because it is WAY more efficient then having to play their own class in PVE.... This just seems silly to me.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
The problem with this is, the new group comp will have 3 CWs - 1 for CC 2 for DPS, 1 TR for solo DPS and 1 DC.
The issue is the tanks in this game just flat out suck for tanking in PVE...
Actually..... the TR still won't get anywhere. They don't do their eye popping damage face tanking things... They need to strike from flanking position.
The Tank(GF)/Rogue combo is what allows them to be able to do just eye popping numbers of Damage. They need that combat advantage and someone to hold the mob's attention...
No tank... no rogue, he drops off the map as that is the combo for excellent single target damage... but being that nothing needs tanking and there are few if any Single Target mobs.... no tank... no rogue.
CWs combine well with GWFs because the both of them can massacre mass mobs, and the GWF fills in the holes of the CW class very well. Its their nich. Its why the two are such a good combo togather in these dungeons as they are AoE damagers by nature, one covers one spectrum, the other, covers the other side of the spectrum. The GWF stuns, prones, bleeds, slows enemies the same way the CW does... just on a smaller scale and much shorter area of effect, but he's also stronger on Single Target mobs.
All of them are tools in an Arsenal to do a job..... but if there's only one job to do... then... no matter how much you nerf, one pair OR BUFF the other... one team is still just as USELESS as before, and becomes even MORE unwanted..... because now it takes more of ONE side of the OTHER team to do the job they were designed to do in the first place.
So... one pair gets squeezed out.
EDIT: Because the fighter class is depended on by different sides of the equasion.... I personally believe they should just fold the GWF and GW into one class called Fighter with the ability to swap out and specialize in either weapon set to flex and adapt to whatever is needed in any given dungeon. So the fighter could do either job as needed depending on the team they draw.
Actually..... the TR still won't get anywhere. They don't do their eye popping damage face tanking things... They need to strike from flanking position.
The Tank(GF)/Rogue combo is what allows them to be able to do just eye popping numbers of Damage. They need that combat advantage and someone to hold the mob's attention...
No tank... no rogue, he drops off the map as that is the combo for excellent single target damage... but being that nothing needs tanking and there are few if any Single Target mobs.... no tank... no rogue.
CWs combine well with GWFs because the both of them can massacre mass mobs, and the GWF fills in the holes of the CW class very well. Its their nich. Its why the two are such a good combo togather in these dungeons as they are AoE damagers by nature, one covers one spectrum, the other, covers the other side of the spectrum. The GWF stuns, prones, bleeds, slows enemies the same way the CW does... just on a smaller scale and much shorter area of effect, but he's also stronger on Single Target mobs.
All of them are tools in an Arsenal to do a job..... but if there's only one job to do... then... no matter how much you nerf, one pair OR BUFF the other... one team is still just as USELESS as before, and becomes even MORE unwanted..... because now it takes more of ONE side of the OTHER team to do the job they were designed to do in the first place.
So... one pair gets squeezed out.
EDIT: Because the fighter class is depended on by different sides of the equasion.... I personally believe they should just fold the GWF and GW into one class called Fighter with the ability to swap out and specialize in either weapon set to flex and adapt to whatever is needed in any given dungeon. So the fighter could do either job as needed depending on the team they draw.
Well what do you propose they do?
They arent gonna go back and re-work existing stuff... So their only option is to try and pretend to balance PVE gameplay with changes to classes....
The only things I can think of are to nerf CW PVE damage but give them amazing aoe control - this may allow for GWFsand HRs to enter the picture as the AOE damage while the CW AOE controls.
This still leaves you without needing a tank and without TRs beeing needed for solo dps...
I mean like you said, when everything is AOE - its hard to make people bring groups of diversity
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
The only things I can think of are to nerf CW PVE damage but give them amazing aoe control - this may allow for GWFsand HRs to enter the picture as the AOE damage while the CW AOE controls.
Won't work, we don't have anything to build off of in that.
We've either got Single Target control powers, or AoE damage... we do not have single target damage or AoE control. Our only AoE control is about the same as yours on the GWF side. Basically we've got one AoE damage spell with knockdown, one with Stun, and one with Slow and only half the CWs have the build for. What we really do is debuff the HAMSTER out of the mobs for you.
Those components don't last much longer than yours as a GWF. What we do, is AoE damage things until we can build UP to a single AoE control spell in our Daily you know as Singularity that's how it really works.
That's the reality of the actual class. When we combine our abilities with yours as a GWF, togather the damage and your prones, knockdowns, and your damage we combine to just slaughter Mass Mobs.
That's really all we've got. In reality we're no more a controller than you are as a GWF.
You would have to implement an entirely new class to get that.
I like your ideas concerning mob changes. But in reality all they have to do in the dungeons is make actual single target tankable mobs that need to be DPSd down rather than burned. One example right off the Bat is the Gelatanous Cubes in VT. Everytime I run that one the Cubes make short work of any mage in range because all we have is our AoEs slotted
..... but the GWFs seem to be able to wipe them out with out problems, thus covering our little known weaknesses as CWs.
Actually..... the TR still won't get anywhere. They don't do their eye popping damage face tanking things... They need to strike from flanking position.
The Tank(GF)/Rogue combo is what allows them to be able to do just eye popping numbers of Damage. They need that combat advantage and someone to hold the mob's attention...
No tank... no rogue, he drops off the map as that is the combo for excellent single target damage... but being that nothing needs tanking and there are few if any Single Target mobs.... no tank... no rogue.
i always thought guardians were a hindrance for rogues since they usually aoe aggro and block the bosses line-of-sight (sometimes even having mobs with aoe stuns on them + the boss). otherwise, rogues are able to do just fine tanking themselves. it may require more dodging but that's about it.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
i always thought guardians were a hindrance for rogues since they usually aoe aggro and block the bosses line-of-sight (sometimes even having mobs with aoe stuns on them + the boss). otherwise, rogues are able to do just fine tanking themselves. it may require more dodging but that's about it.
Actually that's not the issue, the Rogue is a striker a single target damager.
....For the Rogue to do eye popping numbers of damage... he needs sustained damage on a single target and to be in a flanking position to allow combat advantage.
The Rogue cannot achieve this without someone holding the mob's attention. Because the moment he has the Mobs attention he can no longer do sustained damage as he has to dodge a lot and on top of that he loses his key combat advantage damage.
So... he loses his DPS, and can't do his job properly.
The Rogue isn't a straight on fighter... yeah here he can do it, but the way he does his eye popping damage numbers is if someone else has the Mob's attention... ergo... a tank. The Tank/Rogue combination increases his damage markedly and allows him to actually do his job of single target damager.
Minus that, it drops sharply. No tank... no rogue eye popping damage. But being that there's few to no single target mobs to tank in the first place.... the rogue has no role anymore or even any job. Neither tanks.... nor rogues do.
All of this gets negated because there's no single target mobs to apply the Tank/Rogue tactical combo on, relegating the both of them to uselessness. They're both actually very good at their job... there's just NO JOB FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY DO and there's not going to be even if GWFs are nerfed.
Because there's nothing to use a rogue on in the first place, just a ton of mass mobs. SO this was ALL FOR NOTHING and won't achieve a **** thing because... as usual, the devs completely missed the point thinking that Rogues and GWFs were somehow related damage wise... they're not and never were. They're used for two totally different purposes so one doesn't affect the other.
BUT... it DOES affect the CWs natural partner for mass mob clearing.
This is an all-class discussion? Then, time to hear the DC and HR opinion about where they want to see the gwf.
Anyway, mod3 is most probably frozen now, can't imagine a dev bothering reading the thread and making changes for the gwf. Maybe a poll would be fine now. Gwfs, which class will be your reroll?
This is an all-class discussion? Then, time to hear the DC and HR opinion about where they want to see the gwf.
Anyway, mod3 is most probably frozen now, can't imagine a dev bothering reading the thread and making changes for the gwf. Maybe a poll would be fine now. Gwfs, which class will be your reroll?
You are correct about it being wayyyyy too late to make changes, but I guess productive conversation is always a good thing. Maybe they are taking notes.
I'm pretty sure though, with all the changes destroyer GWFs will have a spot in dungeons as DPS, not 100% on that as I'm not much of a PvE guy.
I DO know that GWFs will remain top in PvP.
I'm hoping TRs and HRs will still have a chance against them, but for certain no other class will.
The biggest problem is a lot of people always are thinking about who is best in 1v1 when the game has no real 1v1 gameplay other than when fighting over a cap and even that can be considered just delaying them until backup arrives before ganking. The thing is that the GWF is stil VERY viable in PvP, they will still hit crazy burst damage moving twice as fast as everyone else with an even faster cooldown stun / knock lock now. In a team a perma is great to have as a backcapper but when it comes to winning the middle cap a GWF is one of the most useful by far to have in your team.
Feedback
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Feedback: Sentinel Sentinels lack the damage/threat in PVE to be viable.
Feedback: Instigator Instagator's lack damage AND survivability now... They should get much more CC in their tree as well as better damage boosts for some of the final tier feats.
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Comments
Back to the feedback of the GWF changes:
- INSTA needs MAJOR buffs
- SENT needs better agro gain
- DEST seems pretty "ok" now from my perspective.
Once CWs get toned down - I am a little worried that this will make CWs even more popular because of the nature of the adds...
IE:
Group of 10 mobs - currently 1 CW can AOE all of them down opens room for other classes.
If "nerfed" to a target cap of 5-8, now two CWs will be required or "desired" so they can AOE down. This is the nature of the issue for PVE. Just for simplicity sake.
they shouldnt touch cw target caps, they should either reduce dmg/target or just reduce dmg on aoe skills and these op buffs on thaum
Rather see them introduce different mechanics to the game, no need to nerf the CW at all TBH....
If SOME groups of ads were smaller groups of mobs that NEEDED to be tanked... That type of thing would reduce the benefit of CWs.
If they ever thought of making some groups of mobs magic resistant - that would reduce CWs.
If they every thought to maybe just give more classes non-capped abilities as well - that would fix the issue...
There are alot of things that would address this... withouyt a nerf needed.
forget about tanking, tanking has no place in action mmorpg outside of boss fight anyway. they would need to remake all dungeons or completely make over GF to make it viable.
GF cant aoe tank because of how shield works. GF is made as a boss tank, he can deal with 1 target but is useless vs many targets cause of mob cc spam, its easier just to cc the mobs than to tank them. GWF would be much better aoe tank(though its more like damage soak than real tanking) cause of unstoppable but there is no way in hell sent can hold aggro with equally geared dps.
this game has way too much hard cc and it ruins every aspect of the game
and magic/phys resistant mobs is HAMSTER, why should i be forced to kick a friend out of party and get some random person because we cant do a dungeon without class X ?
I agree with your first part. Which is why I suggested changing the GF in that thread.
For the magic resistant mobs - you wouldnt be kicking anybody. It just means you cant run DC 4CW groups..... Which should already never be the case.
If you bring GF - they are melee
Bring a Tr - melee
HR - melee/physical
GWF - melee
The only two that do magic damage are DC/CW - so I dont see your point....
and if my friends dont like cw and play hr/tr/gwf/gf we cant run dungeons ?
If you make up a group with only meele no wizzy you ofc go to the temple or wizzy tower and get/pay for some magic that allows you to hit those fell creature with weapons.
If a cw needs to get to some mobs which are immune/resistant to magic he has to hire mercs to help him, np.
Full melee party = quest guy/girl who imbues weapons with magic that allows you to do magic dam.
Full cw+dc party = funs spells that summons worriors/deamons/monsters that fight for them ( would actualy be a cool idea even if full cw+dc partys are what we are trying to avoid here ).
This is a fantasy game trust me only your imagination is the limit.
But if you have 6 classes compeating for 5 spots in a group and one of those classes takes 2-4 spots something is seriously wrong with the balance of the game......
nope, never cared about them, this is an action mmorpg not pen and paper
Not the gwf that unbalances pve . He was self-employed , but, at least now, does not accumulate functions as well when our friend of jutsus .
therefore both challenges should be balanced , with the melee a little less dangerous than it is now , more and ranger .
It's too late for that ? As a mere tipster I think so .
So all I hope is that at least gwf keep doing old content as well as now, which includes maintaining and adjusting these buffs , perhaps improving the executioner style and giving to bf a smarter mechanical ( occurred to me that , being encounter one fixed value on the base damage , bring it is not a good deal and all the other encounters are multiplied by focused destroyer / destroyer porpose ) .
That's really what it comes down to and why Nerfing either CWs or GWFs is a bad idea and will only make the situation worse.
These are the AoE classes, designed to take down your Mass Mob encounters, and why the GWF/CW combo works more efficiently than any other in these dungeons. Because that's all there are is Mass Mobs.
The GF and Rogue are single target damagers designed to take down large, powerful single targets that need to be tanked and DPS'd down. Right now there's almost none of these that can utilize that tank/rogue combo on. Ergo... they never get used, because they have no place, they're the wrong tool for the job. They will never be able to compete or even hold ground to a CW/GWF crew that has all the AoEs no matter what you do because they were never designed for it.
One has short range but stronger ones (GWF) the other has weaker ones but larger area (CW).
All it really takes is to make more Single Target encounters for the Tank/Rogue combo. So they can actually participate and have a role again. AND there's very little in the dungeons that even bothers to melee you In terms of Boss Mobs and Single target mobs.
If you fix that single thing, things will work and they'll have a role again... BUT... if you just nerfed your AoEers who take on the Mass mobs for you, people end up stacking a ton of them and squeezing out the Tank/Rogue in groups.
Because you need so many of them just to make the group efficient and survivable that the Single Target classes get squeezed out anyway
So you end up cutting your own throat because you thought you could shorten the handle of your screwdriver to make the wrench more useful... but all you've got in your dungeons a bunch of screws. So you accomplish nothing. And make the situation even worse on all the other classes.
Which is why its hard for many to understand these concepts.
Ok look... I'll explain why the GWF and CW are the only parties you see, and why they go togather like cheese and crackers in this environment.
As a CW I absolutely suck at single target damage, My class was never designed for it It was designed for Mass Mob AoEs. If you want that, you grab a Rogue. BUT... the GWF fills the holes in the CW very nicely in a mass mob situation. You can stack mobs up on them and they can take it a hell of a lot more than I can as a squishy mage.
They are pummeling the mass mob targets in numbers of 3-5 or anything within reach of their blade. I am pummeling 15-20... so long as they're on the other guy and not me. Plus... remember that single target damage weakness that CWs have? Well the GWF takes over once you get to those.... as their attacks are stronger than mine... and they were designed as a seconday tank, not as good as a GF, but close enough they can substitute.
Combine this with dungeons filled with Mass Mobs and togather there's nothing better.
A GF and a Rogue? They're completely worthless to me. What are they going to do... set up on ONE of the thousand mobs and kill it? The GWF is wiping them 3-5 at a time. AND the stronger the mobs I do worse on.... they can handle the Elite ones mixed in like its nothing as to where I'm having to nuke the stronger elites multiple times to drop them. AND my good AoEs don't even go off on single mobs.
And there's no way in hell a GF or Rogue are ever going to be able to because their class just not designed for mass mob encounters. And it takes so many of us AoErs to plow through the mass mobs there's no room left for the Rogue and GF anymore.
So nerfing GWFs OR CWs doesn't do a **** thing to make anything better OR even balance anything. It just makes Rogues and GFs more and more unwanted.
and number of ppl you can get in party is limited so you cant just "take more cw" cause there are already 4 or 5 of them in the party
A whole trilogy of poor choices.
Want to try DC ?
So what your saying is:
Nerf GWF/CWs to deal less damage, NOW single targets deal 70% of the damage AOE classes deal and now that CWs either do damage or CC not both that fixes the isssue?
The problem with this is, the new group comp will have 3 CWs - 1 for CC 2 for DPS, 1 TR for solo DPS and 1 DC.
They need to introduce mobs that MUST be tanked or it will wipe the group.
The issue is the tanks in this game just flat out suck for tanking in PVE...
Gwf with little damage volume = kick. enough to see the class that was kicking. until November this was the reality. ... or mimimi "run with the guild, I have no problem playing with my friends and doing dps against draco using my gwf 398673498673486k gs while my friend cw 3986739984674867k gs controls and kills everything with a breath. "
As the dps and not the debuff which gave a satisfactory position for the class, ok. can remove this additional function. but the gwf damage is not the key to imbalance. is a need for the class.
ps: the controversy over the pvp is unknown, so there is no reason to have anchors now.
then, there is not rational or reason for not nerf the class to be the key to balance. ie reverse the order of the solution. the imbalance in pve embraces and transcends the current condition of the class.
do not know if I report as a bug or just curiosity. sequent damage from hits are taking more damage is intentional?... is not bad lose cancelation in this terms...
I couldnt agree more with this. Strongs that have an anti-magic shell around them at about a 100' ft radius in which no spells can be cast is one good one. Mobs that do massive kickback when they take damage- like 300% kickback- would require low damage dealing high hp tanky characters to slowly bring them down. There are so many options.
Jugger Conq GF
....
The dungeons have one mechanic dump mobs on you. Cryptic is not going to go back and fix every dungeon and skirmish in the game so AE damage dealers will always be the most desirable class.
The solution is not nerf AE damage dealers its give the other classes some AE damage skills.
HRs were desirable for split shot, with the nerf they should get some others encounter abilities that do good AE damage. Traps or have thorn ward hit all targets in area ect.
TRs would be easy to fix. make path of blades hit all targets in area or other AE skills maybe poison cloud, fan of blades, caltrops anything. Give them decent AE dps and then they could switch to single target for bosses. this would make TRs desirable in grps.
Nerfing a class doesnt make other classes better and more desirable. Giving a class useful skills that help a grp, makes a class more desirable.
Another thing that would be interesting is "spell reflect" mobs. That during some "animation" are immune and actually reflect back any spells cast on them - this would make melee/physical damage more appealing in groups AND cause CWs to have to really watch out in PVE.
I dont mind CWs having amazing AOE damage, but when the entire PVE gameplay becomes CW or GTFO for PVE it really ruins the game...
I have alot of pvp buddies who rolled PVE CWs just to farm gear for their PVP toons because it is WAY more efficient then having to play their own class in PVE.... This just seems silly to me.
Actually..... the TR still won't get anywhere. They don't do their eye popping damage face tanking things... They need to strike from flanking position.
The Tank(GF)/Rogue combo is what allows them to be able to do just eye popping numbers of Damage. They need that combat advantage and someone to hold the mob's attention...
No tank... no rogue, he drops off the map as that is the combo for excellent single target damage... but being that nothing needs tanking and there are few if any Single Target mobs.... no tank... no rogue.
CWs combine well with GWFs because the both of them can massacre mass mobs, and the GWF fills in the holes of the CW class very well. Its their nich. Its why the two are such a good combo togather in these dungeons as they are AoE damagers by nature, one covers one spectrum, the other, covers the other side of the spectrum. The GWF stuns, prones, bleeds, slows enemies the same way the CW does... just on a smaller scale and much shorter area of effect, but he's also stronger on Single Target mobs.
All of them are tools in an Arsenal to do a job..... but if there's only one job to do... then... no matter how much you nerf, one pair OR BUFF the other... one team is still just as USELESS as before, and becomes even MORE unwanted..... because now it takes more of ONE side of the OTHER team to do the job they were designed to do in the first place.
So... one pair gets squeezed out.
EDIT: Because the fighter class is depended on by different sides of the equasion.... I personally believe they should just fold the GWF and GW into one class called Fighter with the ability to swap out and specialize in either weapon set to flex and adapt to whatever is needed in any given dungeon. So the fighter could do either job as needed depending on the team they draw.
Well what do you propose they do?
They arent gonna go back and re-work existing stuff... So their only option is to try and pretend to balance PVE gameplay with changes to classes....
The only things I can think of are to nerf CW PVE damage but give them amazing aoe control - this may allow for GWFsand HRs to enter the picture as the AOE damage while the CW AOE controls.
This still leaves you without needing a tank and without TRs beeing needed for solo dps...
I mean like you said, when everything is AOE - its hard to make people bring groups of diversity
Won't work, we don't have anything to build off of in that.
We've either got Single Target control powers, or AoE damage... we do not have single target damage or AoE control. Our only AoE control is about the same as yours on the GWF side. Basically we've got one AoE damage spell with knockdown, one with Stun, and one with Slow and only half the CWs have the build for. What we really do is debuff the HAMSTER out of the mobs for you.
Those components don't last much longer than yours as a GWF. What we do, is AoE damage things until we can build UP to a single AoE control spell in our Daily you know as Singularity that's how it really works.
That's the reality of the actual class. When we combine our abilities with yours as a GWF, togather the damage and your prones, knockdowns, and your damage we combine to just slaughter Mass Mobs.
That's really all we've got. In reality we're no more a controller than you are as a GWF.
You would have to implement an entirely new class to get that.
I like your ideas concerning mob changes. But in reality all they have to do in the dungeons is make actual single target tankable mobs that need to be DPSd down rather than burned. One example right off the Bat is the Gelatanous Cubes in VT. Everytime I run that one the Cubes make short work of any mage in range because all we have is our AoEs slotted
..... but the GWFs seem to be able to wipe them out with out problems, thus covering our little known weaknesses as CWs.
i always thought guardians were a hindrance for rogues since they usually aoe aggro and block the bosses line-of-sight (sometimes even having mobs with aoe stuns on them + the boss). otherwise, rogues are able to do just fine tanking themselves. it may require more dodging but that's about it.
Actually that's not the issue, the Rogue is a striker a single target damager.
....For the Rogue to do eye popping numbers of damage... he needs sustained damage on a single target and to be in a flanking position to allow combat advantage.
The Rogue cannot achieve this without someone holding the mob's attention. Because the moment he has the Mobs attention he can no longer do sustained damage as he has to dodge a lot and on top of that he loses his key combat advantage damage.
So... he loses his DPS, and can't do his job properly.
The Rogue isn't a straight on fighter... yeah here he can do it, but the way he does his eye popping damage numbers is if someone else has the Mob's attention... ergo... a tank. The Tank/Rogue combination increases his damage markedly and allows him to actually do his job of single target damager.
Minus that, it drops sharply. No tank... no rogue eye popping damage. But being that there's few to no single target mobs to tank in the first place.... the rogue has no role anymore or even any job. Neither tanks.... nor rogues do.
All of this gets negated because there's no single target mobs to apply the Tank/Rogue tactical combo on, relegating the both of them to uselessness. They're both actually very good at their job... there's just NO JOB FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY DO and there's not going to be even if GWFs are nerfed.
Because there's nothing to use a rogue on in the first place, just a ton of mass mobs. SO this was ALL FOR NOTHING and won't achieve a **** thing because... as usual, the devs completely missed the point thinking that Rogues and GWFs were somehow related damage wise... they're not and never were. They're used for two totally different purposes so one doesn't affect the other.
BUT... it DOES affect the CWs natural partner for mass mob clearing.
Anyway, mod3 is most probably frozen now, can't imagine a dev bothering reading the thread and making changes for the gwf. Maybe a poll would be fine now. Gwfs, which class will be your reroll?
You are correct about it being wayyyyy too late to make changes, but I guess productive conversation is always a good thing. Maybe they are taking notes.
I'm pretty sure though, with all the changes destroyer GWFs will have a spot in dungeons as DPS, not 100% on that as I'm not much of a PvE guy.
I DO know that GWFs will remain top in PvP.
I'm hoping TRs and HRs will still have a chance against them, but for certain no other class will.
Obviously it helps if they can hold stealth longer, but Combat Advantage really isn't an issue for most TRs that I know...
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
Feedback: Sentinel
Sentinels lack the damage/threat in PVE to be viable.
Feedback: Instigator
Instagator's lack damage AND survivability now... They should get much more CC in their tree as well as better damage boosts for some of the final tier feats.
Feedback: Destroyer
Deep Gash is too weak. 20% of power, netting out tenacity/DR, makes this a pretty worthless feat