Sry but i dont feel op at all in pvp.
The cap in destroyer is useless in pvp as well, no one will stay near a gwf when it is in unstoppable.
I have to agree. Now I have all 6 classes with 13-15k GS each and ideal PvP build. I don't know what made playing GWF feel like this, may be artifacts, boons, don't know, but it takes forever to kill someone.
HR- i cant even get him under 80% hp, lone wolf with 4 piece bonus is just insanely strong
Most of my damage hits are deflected or dodged, but even when I manage to land a couple of critical strikes, they hit for nothing. I actually kill HRs as a GWF if they just troll me running around CCing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me, but it takes freaking forever.
TR- a proper played perma can kill me as well pretty easy
Well, may be I haven't met good ones, but it's 90% win for me.
VS DC/GF we can look at one another all day
I can kill a DC pretty easily, it takes long, but they barely outheal even my at will damage.
About CWs - I don't know, bugged ArP makes them very weak, I see my Ice Knife and Icy Rays hit people for 4k-2k respectively (mitigation from 11k-6k), it's very hard to kill GWF with such a low damage.
There's no chance to kill anyone 1vs2 anymore, GWFs no longer have endless sustain, IMO, after module 3 they will be very weak in PvP.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
I have to agree. Now I have all 6 classes with 13-15k GS each and ideal PvP build. I don't know what made playing GWF feel like this, may be artifacts, boons, don't know, but it takes forever to kill someone.
Most of my damage hits are deflected or dodged, but even when I manage to land a couple of critical strikes, they hit for nothing. I actually kill HRs as a GWF if they just troll me running around CCing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me, but it takes freaking forever.
Well, may be I haven't met good ones, but it's 90% win for me.
I can kill a DC pretty easily, it takes long, but they barely outheal even my at will damage.
About CWs - I don't know, bugged ArP makes them very weak, I see my Ice Knife and Icy Rays hit people for 4k-2k respectively (mitigation from 11k-6k), it's very hard to kill GWF with such a low damage.
There's no chance to kill anyone 1vs2 anymore, GWFs no longer have endless sustain, IMO, after module 3 they will be very weak in PvP.
Agree- HRs just deflect/dodge everything and with the 4pc set bonus they actually outheal my at will spamming....
Versus TRs, a good TR will win almost everytime. Maybe with SE fix this will balance out some but on LIVE its pretty hard to win.
For DCs - a GWF cant kill a really good DC stacked for PVP play. If they know what they are doing you wont kill them. period. If they spec wrong/play wrong or are inexperienced its not even a contest - they will die.
Honestly I wont even play domination anymore I think, Ill probably just zone pvp since I can use companions to make up for some of these changes.
What is stupid is now you can either build around companions FOR zone pvp and then suck in domination OR build around domination but then not so as well in zone...
I hate they have this big difference now because it segregates the pvp community - which is the reason they gave for not giving us foundry pvp...
What is stupid is now you can either build around companions FOR zone pvp and then suck in domination OR build around domination but then not so as well in zone...
I hate they have this big difference now because it segregates the pvp community - which is the reason they gave for not giving us foundry pvp...
they need to sell purple pets somehow, if ppl dont buy them for pve where loss of 1k stat points doesnt matter as much then in pvp it matters more
Paladin Master Race
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Now once the GWF and CW receive their respective fixes, reworks, w/e
GWF/CW 12m, tr/hr 10m, GF 8m, DC 5m.
Because the GWF and the CW won't have the huge dps as it is now in the live server, the other classes will be able to deal more damage (enemies will last longer because they receive less damage) a GWF or a CW won't kill a whole group of enemies by himself, the whole party will be required..
Wrong answer... no it won't.
I can tell you're another person who has little understanding of the actual game and the dungeons... Almost like the Devs appear to be...
Where'd you get that information... Paingiver?
Do you even understand WHY the damage is so high on the Classes that ARE chosen for groups?
Here let me assist you... and simplify this for you...
If a Mage or GWF are damaging each mob for 50 (cw) damage and 75 (GWF) damage,
In ONE round of combat if the GWF hits 3 mobs and the Mage hits 6 mobs...
Their total damage in Paingiver will be 220 for GWF, and 300 for CW.
The Rogue? he's doing about 100 damage to a SINGLE mob... (yeah these guys PvE spec and high GS will actually crit for upwards of 100k)
So Paingiver comes out like this...
CW: 300 damage
GWF: 220 damage
Rogue: 100 damage
When in reality the highest damager per target WAS the rogue....
How exactly is this going to change anything. Secondly Do you REALLY believe this suddenly and mysteriously fixed ANYTHING?
Things like this will NEVER fix the problem. Because the problem isn't and never was GWF vs Rogue... or even GWF vs CW... It was... AoE damagers in a mass mob environment vs SINGLE target damagers in a mass mob environment who cannot compete and cannot participate because they do not and never have had the abillity to contribute to that kind of environment.
This fix and ANY other damage reduction attempt will DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change anything. Its why they keep doing this OVER AND OVER AND OVER ... and FAILING OVER AND OVER AND OVER and making the situation EVEN WORSE not better.
Because the Devs... and you apparently.... CANNOT see the REAL problem ergo... they keep applying useless fixes that accomplish nothing... while the other classes are STILL never going to get used because the BEST tool for the job in a Mass Mob situation IS an AoE damager or those who can contribute to it like a GWF...
That's the bottom line, and why NO damage reductions will ever balance anything or EVEN work to get other classes into dungeons... if your sole focus was Paingiver... then you missed why they keep doing this kind of thing over and over and failing ever fix anything or ever balancing PvE despite the fact they've been doing this almost for a year now.
Its time to walk a different path rather than following the same failure...
You want your other tools to work... you have to change the type of job being done. You can't shorten the handle of your screwdriver and then tell yourself the WRENCH will get used more... when all you've got is screws in your dungeons.
I can tell you're another person who has little understanding of the actual game and the dungeons... Almost like the Devs appear to be...
Where'd you get that information... Paingiver?
Do you even understand WHY the damage is so high on the Classes that ARE chosen for groups?
Here let me assist you... and simplify this for you...
If a Mage or GWF are damaging each mob for 50 (cw) damage and 75 (GWF) damage,
In ONE round of combat if the GWF hits 3 mobs and the Mage hits 6 mobs...
Their total damage in Paingiver will be 220 for GWF, and 300 for CW.
The Rogue? he's doing about 100 damage to a SINGLE mob... (yeah these guys PvE spec and high GS will actually crit for upwards of 100k)
So Paingiver comes out like this...
CW: 300 damage
GWF: 220 damage
Rogue: 100 damage
When in reality the highest damager per target WAS the rogue....
How exactly is this going to change anything. Secondly Do you REALLY believe this suddenly and mysteriously fixed ANYTHING?
Things like this will NEVER fix the problem. Because the problem isn't and never was GWF vs Rogue... or even GWF vs CW... It was... AoE damagers in a mass mob environment vs SINGLE target damagers in a mass mob environment who cannot compete and cannot participate because they do not and never have had the abillity to contribute to that kind of environment.
This fix and ANY other damage reduction attempt will DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change anything. Its why they keep doing this OVER AND OVER AND OVER ... and FAILING OVER AND OVER AND OVER and making the situation EVEN WORSE not better.
Because the Devs... and you apparently.... CANNOT see the REAL problem ergo... they keep applying useless fixes that accomplish nothing... while the other classes are STILL never going to get used because the BEST tool for the job in a Mass Mob situation IS an AoE damager or those who can contribute to it like a GWF...
That's the bottom line, and why NO damage reductions will ever balance anything or EVEN work to get other classes into dungeons... if your sole focus was Paingiver... then you missed why they keep doing this kind of thing over and over and failing ever fix anything or ever balancing PvE despite the fact they've been doing this almost for a year now.
Its time to walk a different path rather than following the same failure...
You want your other tools to work... you have to change the type of job being done. You can't shorten the handle of your screwdriver and then tell yourself the WRENCH will get used more... when all you've got is screws in your dungeons.
TL;DR
Telling others they are wrong doesn't mean you are right. Actually, with you answer you look like the one with little understanding here. Highest single target dps title belong to the TR? just lol. Do you have one? That's the only way you could be in defense of this, if so, I would kindly like to invite you anywhere we are able to do single target dps in a boss, without adds, then let's see if your TR outdps my GWF and if there's a TR that outdps your GWF, geez. :rolleyes:
According to the fixes that the GWF is receiving for mod3, single target dmg will be even higher now.
If a TR want to do single target damage in a dungeon and going around "hey, I crit 1 add for 100k woohoo" that's why I see so many of them going to CN i.e. Right? You have to adapt to the situation and all you need is AoE dps, crit 3 adds for 40k each instead of just 1 for 100k.
Finally, just saying, Paingiver is ok, we are inflicting "pain" to many enemies not just one, all you want is another chart "highest crit" and you would be happy for the rest of your life.
GWF's are stupid op except against top players, and even then most classes do not have much of a chance.
You feel that gwf is op when facing pve geared opponents, but the opposite when facing similar geared/skilled opponents and since most of the population has bad gear you've come to the conclusion that gwf is op. You;re logic is bullet proof! This comes as a complete shock for me :rolleyes:
You want your other tools to work... you have to change the type of job being done. You can't shorten the handle of your screwdriver and then tell yourself the WRENCH will get used more... when all you've got is screws in your dungeons.
This is exactly right. The issue with GWFs/CWs in PVE isnt necessarily that these classes need to be fixed PER SE but more that the current dungeon design is TONS of mobs.
Silverquick great job at dumbing it down so most people could understand! Apparently its still too complex for others. There were hundreds of these types of threads upon release and in open beta but the DEVs never really bit.
Want to fix that problem? There was a brilliant thread created long ago that basically laid out different "tier" of monsters and what to do to each one.
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
Too lowbie unfriendly. As you could have been noticed, everything in this game is way to easy: limited number of abilities that can be used at the same time, limited itemization, absolutely identical mob encounters, etc. Adding a least a bit of strategy and tactics requirement will instantly cut off 90% of players, that braindead smash keyboard and hope for win. Just try to do Garrundar the Vile with pugs, they don't even realize what's happening, they don't even try to kill mystics, they will just smash their head on the keyboard till the dragon or they themselves will die. I absolutely sure that this is why we're getting all the same PvE stuff with millions of adds and red areas.
PvE design also negates the need of tanking as CWs can CC or dodge or strike from range. That's why GWF have to be a damage dealer in every spec, more or less. What we see now, is that the only available damage spec will be Destroyer. For GWF this is the only class in the game that has absolutely different gear for absolutely different specs - damage dealer and tank. You can't like CW or TR or anyone else just respec with the same gear and feel good. I absolutely hate these changes.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
1. Ayroux has been advocate for some nerfing of gwf in several ways in pvp before and cant be seen as some that just want gwfs to continue be op imho.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
3. I challange you to run a full dungeon same party in test as in live and try to come up with about same total dam- it just wont happend.
There will allways be some that want to stand out calling other cry babys telling them that all is fine and i found the way around it couse am better, more inventfull etc etc etc.
We had em before module 2 saying that gwf was all fine and dandy and could out dps any cw if they just did things right and you just joined that team.
Am not saying gwf was fine compared to tr gf hr before and that some changes to put them more in pair with those classes is a bad thing (leaving cw out of this as they seem to be a special case for the devs).
But the total of the nerf like it is now... well lets just say gwf wont be the most popular class in either pvp or pve ...
Best
Yeah, GWFs are pretty ruined for pve, but I was talking to Ayroux about pvp. So none of what you said applied to what I said at all. Move along.
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
gratz, you probably just wrote most stupid thing on the internet
Yeah, GWFs are pretty ruined for pve, but I was talking to Ayroux about pvp. So none of what you said applied to what I said at all. Move along.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
And you ability to read is good or.....
I disregarded what you said because you're not saying anything of value. Big means what? 30%? 40%? I have parsed results of using the correct sentinel feats + DG and SoTS between both live and preview for pvp, you lose a max 20% of your damage. However if you change up your build a bit, you gain back 15% immediately, so within 5% of what we were damagewise. 17k GS also means you're not using BiS gear. I'm in rank 10s and have 14-15k GS depending on which jewelry I decide to wear. You can compensate the loss. Not fully, but within 5% of what it was. The parse results show me losing 15-20% of my damage running the same feats, but you can get that damage back if you use a different build. You also have the option to drop your damage to become more of a stall, though I don't recommend it. 2v1 situations still see you dying in roughly the same amount of time.
What I dislike about you and ayroux is that you're saying: Sentinel GWF is useless, and yet neither of you are posting numbers. Neither of you are running a BiS gwf. Neither of you are theorycrafting. There's plenty of workarounds, you're whining over nothing.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
This is exactly right. The issue with GWFs/CWs in PVE isnt necessarily that these classes need to be fixed PER SE but more that the current dungeon design is TONS of mobs.
Silverquick great job at dumbing it down so most people could understand! Apparently its still too complex for others. There were hundreds of these types of threads upon release and in open beta but the DEVs never really bit.
Want to fix that problem? There was a brilliant thread created long ago that basically laid out different "tier" of monsters and what to do to each one.
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
Apparently yes... its way too complex even when seriously dumbed down.
Stuff like this just ends up making the Devs look stupid in the end.
And when they FINALLY figure out that those classes never needed any adjustments, AND all they had to do was throw in some ACTUAL mobs that need the Tank/Rogue combo on them... rather than just spamming mass mobs all the time, they'll STILL have already hosed themselves up.
Because once they start to ACTUALLY add in Single target mobs that need to be DPS'd rather than mass mobs that need to be AoE'd down down the blinders will come off and it will be like NIGHT AND DAY, suddenly and mysteriously classes that could not participate anymore because they were useless on mass mobs... WILL BE ABLE TO AGAIN AND HAVE A ROLE.
... these people who keep saying "nerf, nerf, nerf"... will be wondering WHY still NO ONE is taking Tank/Rogue combinations into the Dungeons......
BECAUSE... they just nerfed the AoE Damagers so badly you'll STILL need to stack 50 kabillion of them just to get THROUGH the mass mobs to GET to the point where the SINGLE TARGET damagers can participate
So there's.... STILL not going to be any space for them in the party because no one can survive the mass mobs anymore without a crapton of AoE damagers in the party.
Wow.. talk about stepping on your own ****.
And these people think they're making the situation more "balanced" when in reality they're just making it worse and worse on every other class in the game.
They think they're so Smrat.... yeah so SMRAT they OUTSMRATTED themselves.
"Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups...."
hmmm... right now , the CW is preferred , but not essential . If you segregates dps party, you will automatically ensure the place of cw ... with a catch. being the dps cut " in half " given immunity to magic damage , your only option would be to bring the best melee dps you have, at the moment, gwf . 2x2 +1 ( DC ? )
Cut the potential to damage the party in half , that would only leave the tedious game ...
among a thousand speculations , a very simple problem can be observed in these enemies of ice wind . ALL represents a huge danger to melee classes . even the weakest enemies , when they die , they explode causing great damage / freezing . There is not any enemy ranged attack that is representatively more dangerous for the distance classes than for a melee .
and this is the great reversal .
IF the great mass of damage came from ranged attacks , the historic inefficiency of gwf while defender give space would bring gf to party . but this obsession with finding the gwf is the great evil of mankind only made secure arguably the stand of the cw . not because it does more damage , but he has control + ranged attack , which will be the best tools for survival at this point .
Also ... does not help much content you want to level down from the classes dungeons with fixed de9200 difficulty, for players with 14/15/16/17k gs. the "downgrade" is really horrible.
ps:in my opinion, the big, big problem of the rogue is not exist deadly traps that he can disarm. there is therefore no dps race would be just a detail.
ps2:This is the critical point. also the big problem is the accumulation of functions.
eg gwf now lost its utilitarian aspect. yet he does more damage than would before, he could not maximize the potential of other players. that is correct!
unfortunately this "fine tuning" will not intended for a thau for example.
ps3: i dont see the correction on critical severity...
I disregarded what you said because you're not saying anything of value. Big means what? 30%? 40%? I have parsed results of using the correct sentinel feats + DG and SoTS between both live and preview for pvp, you lose a max 20% of your damage. However if you change up your build a bit, you gain back 15% immediately, so within 5% of what we were damagewise.
And your parces/new builds are where ??? about adding anything of value!
You wrote i dident write anyting about pvp i quote myself and your answer is that you dissregarded it just lol you dont pay attension might be a better way of putting it.
Now show us a sent build that loose only 5% of the dam of what is on live, trust me alot would be pleased if you could.
Bis geared, well am rank 9 instead of 10th and have lvl 80-90 artifacts instead of 100 but thats about it in my book close enough so dont give me that about the gear should be making any big differance.
Show us your brillant theorycrafting of making 90% of the dam sent has on live with same geared gwf on test, we are looking so forward to you teaching us ).
Best
Plz enlighten us with your only loose 5% dps as sent with your new build, we are eager to see you add anything of value.
You feel that gwf is op when facing pve geared opponents, but the opposite when facing similar geared/skilled opponents and since most of the population has bad gear you've come to the conclusion that gwf is op. You;re logic is bullet proof! This comes as a complete shock for me :rolleyes:
Well.. it says.... And you quoted it... " And even then most don't have a chance." Meaning even if they out gear and skill me, they most of the time don't have a chance...
Well.. it says.... And you quoted it... " And even then most don't have a chance." Meaning even if they out gear and skill me, they most of the time don't have a chance...
What are you even talking about :rolleyes:
all you are doing is bragging without any kind of proof so this is all i have to say: Gz and i hope all of us may find an inspiration in your amazing talent.
The last two pages have spiraled way out of control.
Back to the feedback of the GWF changes:
- INSTA needs MAJOR buffs
- SENT needs better agro gain
- DEST seems pretty "ok" now from my perspective.
Once CWs get toned down - I am a little worried that this will make CWs even more popular because of the nature of the adds...
IE:
Group of 10 mobs - currently 1 CW can AOE all of them down opens room for other classes.
If "nerfed" to a target cap of 5-8, now two CWs will be required or "desired" so they can AOE down. This is the nature of the issue for PVE. Just for simplicity sake.
Once CWs get toned down - I am a little worried that this will make CWs even more popular because of the nature of the adds...
IE:
Group of 10 mobs - currently 1 CW can AOE all of them down opens room for other classes.
If "nerfed" to a target cap of 5-8, now two CWs will be required or "desired" so they can AOE down. This is the nature of the issue for PVE. Just for simplicity sake.
they shouldnt touch cw target caps, they should either reduce dmg/target or just reduce dmg on aoe skills and these op buffs on thaum
Rather see them introduce different mechanics to the game, no need to nerf the CW at all TBH....
If SOME groups of ads were smaller groups of mobs that NEEDED to be tanked... That type of thing would reduce the benefit of CWs.
If they ever thought of making some groups of mobs magic resistant - that would reduce CWs.
If they every thought to maybe just give more classes non-capped abilities as well - that would fix the issue...
There are alot of things that would address this... withouyt a nerf needed.
forget about tanking, tanking has no place in action mmorpg outside of boss fight anyway. they would need to remake all dungeons or completely make over GF to make it viable.
GF cant aoe tank because of how shield works. GF is made as a boss tank, he can deal with 1 target but is useless vs many targets cause of mob cc spam, its easier just to cc the mobs than to tank them. GWF would be much better aoe tank(though its more like damage soak than real tanking) cause of unstoppable but there is no way in hell sent can hold aggro with equally geared dps.
this game has way too much hard cc and it ruins every aspect of the game
and magic/phys resistant mobs is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, why should i be forced to kick a friend out of party and get some random person because we cant do a dungeon without class X ?
forget about tanking, tanking has no place in action mmorpg outside of boss fight anyway. they would need to remake all dungeons or completely make over GF to make it viable.
GF cant aoe tank because of how shield works. GF is made as a boss tank, he can deal with 1 target but is useless vs many targets cause of mob cc spam, its easier just to cc the mobs than to tank them. GWF would be much better aoe tank(though its more like damage soak than real tanking) cause of unstoppable but there is no way in hell sent can hold aggro with equally geared dps.
this game has way too much hard cc and it ruins every aspect of the game
and magic/phys resistant mobs is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, why should i be forced to kick a friend out of party and get some random person because we cant do a dungeon without class X ?
I agree with your first part. Which is why I suggested changing the GF in that thread.
For the magic resistant mobs - you wouldnt be kicking anybody. It just means you cant run DC 4CW groups..... Which should already never be the case.
If you bring GF - they are melee
Bring a Tr - melee
HR - melee/physical
GWF - melee
The only two that do magic damage are DC/CW - so I dont see your point....
and if my friends dont like cw and play hr/tr/gwf/gf we cant run dungeons ?
Did you never play pen and paper roleplay :-).
If you make up a group with only meele no wizzy you ofc go to the temple or wizzy tower and get/pay for some magic that allows you to hit those fell creature with weapons.
If a cw needs to get to some mobs which are immune/resistant to magic he has to hire mercs to help him, np.
Full melee party = quest guy/girl who imbues weapons with magic that allows you to do magic dam.
Full cw+dc party = funs spells that summons worriors/deamons/monsters that fight for them ( would actualy be a cool idea even if full cw+dc partys are what we are trying to avoid here ).
This is a fantasy game trust me only your imagination is the limit.
But if you have 6 classes compeating for 5 spots in a group and one of those classes takes 2-4 spots something is seriously wrong with the balance of the game......
ok , would be nice if certain enemies have different resistances to magic types, and even types of physical damage , which would make having a sword transformed into hammer was not a mere detail in time to face skeletons . But the point is : this is the project to another module . In this module now managed to totally undermine a ' gwf kamikaze " in view of the attack against melee enemies , forgetting , however, that are autonomous cw far longer .
Not the gwf that unbalances pve . He was self-employed , but, at least now, does not accumulate functions as well when our friend of jutsus .
therefore both challenges should be balanced , with the melee a little less dangerous than it is now , more and ranger .
It's too late for that ? As a mere tipster I think so .
So all I hope is that at least gwf keep doing old content as well as now, which includes maintaining and adjusting these buffs , perhaps improving the executioner style and giving to bf a smarter mechanical ( occurred to me that , being encounter one fixed value on the base damage , bring it is not a good deal and all the other encounters are multiplied by focused destroyer / destroyer porpose ) .
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Once CWs get toned down - I am a little worried that this will make CWs even more popular because of the nature of the adds...
IE:
Group of 10 mobs - currently 1 CW can AOE all of them down opens room for other classes.
If "nerfed" to a target cap of 5-8, now two CWs will be required or "desired" so they can AOE down. This is the nature of the issue for PVE. Just for simplicity sake.
That's really what it comes down to and why Nerfing either CWs or GWFs is a bad idea and will only make the situation worse.
These are the AoE classes, designed to take down your Mass Mob encounters, and why the GWF/CW combo works more efficiently than any other in these dungeons. Because that's all there are is Mass Mobs.
The GF and Rogue are single target damagers designed to take down large, powerful single targets that need to be tanked and DPS'd down. Right now there's almost none of these that can utilize that tank/rogue combo on. Ergo... they never get used, because they have no place, they're the wrong tool for the job. They will never be able to compete or even hold ground to a CW/GWF crew that has all the AoEs no matter what you do because they were never designed for it.
One has short range but stronger ones (GWF) the other has weaker ones but larger area (CW).
All it really takes is to make more Single Target encounters for the Tank/Rogue combo. So they can actually participate and have a role again. AND there's very little in the dungeons that even bothers to melee you In terms of Boss Mobs and Single target mobs.
If you fix that single thing, things will work and they'll have a role again... BUT... if you just nerfed your AoEers who take on the Mass mobs for you, people end up stacking a ton of them and squeezing out the Tank/Rogue in groups.
Because you need so many of them just to make the group efficient and survivable that the Single Target classes get squeezed out anyway
So you end up cutting your own throat because you thought you could shorten the handle of your screwdriver to make the wrench more useful... but all you've got in your dungeons a bunch of screws. So you accomplish nothing. And make the situation even worse on all the other classes.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
nope, never cared about them, this is an action mmorpg not pen and paper
Which is why its hard for many to understand these concepts.
Ok look... I'll explain why the GWF and CW are the only parties you see, and why they go togather like cheese and crackers in this environment.
As a CW I absolutely suck at single target damage, My class was never designed for it It was designed for Mass Mob AoEs. If you want that, you grab a Rogue. BUT... the GWF fills the holes in the CW very nicely in a mass mob situation. You can stack mobs up on them and they can take it a hell of a lot more than I can as a squishy mage.
They are pummeling the mass mob targets in numbers of 3-5 or anything within reach of their blade. I am pummeling 15-20... so long as they're on the other guy and not me. Plus... remember that single target damage weakness that CWs have? Well the GWF takes over once you get to those.... as their attacks are stronger than mine... and they were designed as a seconday tank, not as good as a GF, but close enough they can substitute.
Combine this with dungeons filled with Mass Mobs and togather there's nothing better.
A GF and a Rogue? They're completely worthless to me. What are they going to do... set up on ONE of the thousand mobs and kill it? The GWF is wiping them 3-5 at a time. AND the stronger the mobs I do worse on.... they can handle the Elite ones mixed in like its nothing as to where I'm having to nuke the stronger elites multiple times to drop them. AND my good AoEs don't even go off on single mobs.
And there's no way in hell a GF or Rogue are ever going to be able to because their class just not designed for mass mob encounters. And it takes so many of us AoErs to plow through the mass mobs there's no room left for the Rogue and GF anymore.
So nerfing GWFs OR CWs doesn't do a **** thing to make anything better OR even balance anything. It just makes Rogues and GFs more and more unwanted.
Comments
I have to agree. Now I have all 6 classes with 13-15k GS each and ideal PvP build. I don't know what made playing GWF feel like this, may be artifacts, boons, don't know, but it takes forever to kill someone. Most of my damage hits are deflected or dodged, but even when I manage to land a couple of critical strikes, they hit for nothing. I actually kill HRs as a GWF if they just troll me running around CCing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me, but it takes freaking forever. Well, may be I haven't met good ones, but it's 90% win for me. I can kill a DC pretty easily, it takes long, but they barely outheal even my at will damage.
About CWs - I don't know, bugged ArP makes them very weak, I see my Ice Knife and Icy Rays hit people for 4k-2k respectively (mitigation from 11k-6k), it's very hard to kill GWF with such a low damage.
There's no chance to kill anyone 1vs2 anymore, GWFs no longer have endless sustain, IMO, after module 3 they will be very weak in PvP.
Agree- HRs just deflect/dodge everything and with the 4pc set bonus they actually outheal my at will spamming....
Versus TRs, a good TR will win almost everytime. Maybe with SE fix this will balance out some but on LIVE its pretty hard to win.
For DCs - a GWF cant kill a really good DC stacked for PVP play. If they know what they are doing you wont kill them. period. If they spec wrong/play wrong or are inexperienced its not even a contest - they will die.
Honestly I wont even play domination anymore I think, Ill probably just zone pvp since I can use companions to make up for some of these changes.
What is stupid is now you can either build around companions FOR zone pvp and then suck in domination OR build around domination but then not so as well in zone...
I hate they have this big difference now because it segregates the pvp community - which is the reason they gave for not giving us foundry pvp...
they need to sell purple pets somehow, if ppl dont buy them for pve where loss of 1k stat points doesnt matter as much then in pvp it matters more
Wrong answer... no it won't.
I can tell you're another person who has little understanding of the actual game and the dungeons... Almost like the Devs appear to be...
Where'd you get that information... Paingiver?
Do you even understand WHY the damage is so high on the Classes that ARE chosen for groups?
Here let me assist you... and simplify this for you...
If a Mage or GWF are damaging each mob for 50 (cw) damage and 75 (GWF) damage,
In ONE round of combat if the GWF hits 3 mobs and the Mage hits 6 mobs...
Their total damage in Paingiver will be 220 for GWF, and 300 for CW.
The Rogue? he's doing about 100 damage to a SINGLE mob... (yeah these guys PvE spec and high GS will actually crit for upwards of 100k)
So Paingiver comes out like this...
CW: 300 damage
GWF: 220 damage
Rogue: 100 damage
When in reality the highest damager per target WAS the rogue....
How exactly is this going to change anything. Secondly Do you REALLY believe this suddenly and mysteriously fixed ANYTHING?
Things like this will NEVER fix the problem. Because the problem isn't and never was GWF vs Rogue... or even GWF vs CW... It was... AoE damagers in a mass mob environment vs SINGLE target damagers in a mass mob environment who cannot compete and cannot participate because they do not and never have had the abillity to contribute to that kind of environment.
This fix and ANY other damage reduction attempt will DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change anything. Its why they keep doing this OVER AND OVER AND OVER ... and FAILING OVER AND OVER AND OVER and making the situation EVEN WORSE not better.
Because the Devs... and you apparently.... CANNOT see the REAL problem ergo... they keep applying useless fixes that accomplish nothing... while the other classes are STILL never going to get used because the BEST tool for the job in a Mass Mob situation IS an AoE damager or those who can contribute to it like a GWF...
That's the bottom line, and why NO damage reductions will ever balance anything or EVEN work to get other classes into dungeons... if your sole focus was Paingiver... then you missed why they keep doing this kind of thing over and over and failing ever fix anything or ever balancing PvE despite the fact they've been doing this almost for a year now.
Its time to walk a different path rather than following the same failure...
You want your other tools to work... you have to change the type of job being done. You can't shorten the handle of your screwdriver and then tell yourself the WRENCH will get used more... when all you've got is screws in your dungeons.
lvl 60, full tenacity gear, full rank 10's (cept util slots) perfects, 3 purp artifacts, no legendary =\
I say again. GWF's are stupid op except against top players, and even then most classes do not have much of a chance.
TL;DR
Telling others they are wrong doesn't mean you are right. Actually, with you answer you look like the one with little understanding here. Highest single target dps title belong to the TR? just lol. Do you have one? That's the only way you could be in defense of this, if so, I would kindly like to invite you anywhere we are able to do single target dps in a boss, without adds, then let's see if your TR outdps my GWF and if there's a TR that outdps your GWF, geez. :rolleyes:
According to the fixes that the GWF is receiving for mod3, single target dmg will be even higher now.
If a TR want to do single target damage in a dungeon and going around "hey, I crit 1 add for 100k woohoo" that's why I see so many of them going to CN i.e. Right? You have to adapt to the situation and all you need is AoE dps, crit 3 adds for 40k each instead of just 1 for 100k.
Finally, just saying, Paingiver is ok, we are inflicting "pain" to many enemies not just one, all you want is another chart "highest crit" and you would be happy for the rest of your life.
This is exactly right. The issue with GWFs/CWs in PVE isnt necessarily that these classes need to be fixed PER SE but more that the current dungeon design is TONS of mobs.
Silverquick great job at dumbing it down so most people could understand! Apparently its still too complex for others. There were hundreds of these types of threads upon release and in open beta but the DEVs never really bit.
Want to fix that problem? There was a brilliant thread created long ago that basically laid out different "tier" of monsters and what to do to each one.
Overall it was to the effect of reducing the number of mobs, increasing the HP/damage of remaining mobs and another step would be to add a mob type that is 100% spell resistance, or 100% melee resistant this almost forces you to have both types in all groups....
Too lowbie unfriendly. As you could have been noticed, everything in this game is way to easy: limited number of abilities that can be used at the same time, limited itemization, absolutely identical mob encounters, etc. Adding a least a bit of strategy and tactics requirement will instantly cut off 90% of players, that braindead smash keyboard and hope for win. Just try to do Garrundar the Vile with pugs, they don't even realize what's happening, they don't even try to kill mystics, they will just smash their head on the keyboard till the dragon or they themselves will die. I absolutely sure that this is why we're getting all the same PvE stuff with millions of adds and red areas.
PvE design also negates the need of tanking as CWs can CC or dodge or strike from range. That's why GWF have to be a damage dealer in every spec, more or less. What we see now, is that the only available damage spec will be Destroyer. For GWF this is the only class in the game that has absolutely different gear for absolutely different specs - damage dealer and tank. You can't like CW or TR or anyone else just respec with the same gear and feel good. I absolutely hate these changes.
Yeah, GWFs are pretty ruined for pve, but I was talking to Ayroux about pvp. So none of what you said applied to what I said at all. Move along.
gratz, you probably just wrote most stupid thing on the internet
2. NO there is not a small differance i have myself a 17kGS gwf and have fought same guys on live and test with same builds and the differance on test is huge. You can switch a couple of points around and you can feat some different ench *mainly more power* but saying that you can more or less compensate the loss is compleate bs as far as i see it.
And you ability to read is good or.....
I disregarded what you said because you're not saying anything of value. Big means what? 30%? 40%? I have parsed results of using the correct sentinel feats + DG and SoTS between both live and preview for pvp, you lose a max 20% of your damage. However if you change up your build a bit, you gain back 15% immediately, so within 5% of what we were damagewise. 17k GS also means you're not using BiS gear. I'm in rank 10s and have 14-15k GS depending on which jewelry I decide to wear. You can compensate the loss. Not fully, but within 5% of what it was. The parse results show me losing 15-20% of my damage running the same feats, but you can get that damage back if you use a different build. You also have the option to drop your damage to become more of a stall, though I don't recommend it. 2v1 situations still see you dying in roughly the same amount of time.
What I dislike about you and ayroux is that you're saying: Sentinel GWF is useless, and yet neither of you are posting numbers. Neither of you are running a BiS gwf. Neither of you are theorycrafting. There's plenty of workarounds, you're whining over nothing.
Apparently yes... its way too complex even when seriously dumbed down.
Stuff like this just ends up making the Devs look stupid in the end.
And when they FINALLY figure out that those classes never needed any adjustments, AND all they had to do was throw in some ACTUAL mobs that need the Tank/Rogue combo on them... rather than just spamming mass mobs all the time, they'll STILL have already hosed themselves up.
Because once they start to ACTUALLY add in Single target mobs that need to be DPS'd rather than mass mobs that need to be AoE'd down down the blinders will come off and it will be like NIGHT AND DAY, suddenly and mysteriously classes that could not participate anymore because they were useless on mass mobs... WILL BE ABLE TO AGAIN AND HAVE A ROLE.
... these people who keep saying "nerf, nerf, nerf"... will be wondering WHY still NO ONE is taking Tank/Rogue combinations into the Dungeons......
BECAUSE... they just nerfed the AoE Damagers so badly you'll STILL need to stack 50 kabillion of them just to get THROUGH the mass mobs to GET to the point where the SINGLE TARGET damagers can participate
So there's.... STILL not going to be any space for them in the party because no one can survive the mass mobs anymore without a crapton of AoE damagers in the party.
Wow.. talk about stepping on your own ****.
And these people think they're making the situation more "balanced" when in reality they're just making it worse and worse on every other class in the game.
They think they're so Smrat.... yeah so SMRAT they OUTSMRATTED themselves.
hmmm... right now , the CW is preferred , but not essential . If you segregates dps party, you will automatically ensure the place of cw ... with a catch. being the dps cut " in half " given immunity to magic damage , your only option would be to bring the best melee dps you have, at the moment, gwf . 2x2 +1 ( DC ? )
Cut the potential to damage the party in half , that would only leave the tedious game ...
among a thousand speculations , a very simple problem can be observed in these enemies of ice wind . ALL represents a huge danger to melee classes . even the weakest enemies , when they die , they explode causing great damage / freezing . There is not any enemy ranged attack that is representatively more dangerous for the distance classes than for a melee .
and this is the great reversal .
IF the great mass of damage came from ranged attacks , the historic inefficiency of gwf while defender give space would bring gf to party . but this obsession with finding the gwf is the great evil of mankind only made secure arguably the stand of the cw . not because it does more damage , but he has control + ranged attack , which will be the best tools for survival at this point .
Also ... does not help much content you want to level down from the classes dungeons with fixed de9200 difficulty, for players with 14/15/16/17k gs. the "downgrade" is really horrible.
ps:in my opinion, the big, big problem of the rogue is not exist deadly traps that he can disarm. there is therefore no dps race would be just a detail.
ps2:This is the critical point. also the big problem is the accumulation of functions.
eg gwf now lost its utilitarian aspect. yet he does more damage than would before, he could not maximize the potential of other players. that is correct!
unfortunately this "fine tuning" will not intended for a thau for example.
ps3: i dont see the correction on critical severity...
And your parces/new builds are where ??? about adding anything of value!
You wrote i dident write anyting about pvp i quote myself and your answer is that you dissregarded it just lol you dont pay attension might be a better way of putting it.
Now show us a sent build that loose only 5% of the dam of what is on live, trust me alot would be pleased if you could.
Bis geared, well am rank 9 instead of 10th and have lvl 80-90 artifacts instead of 100 but thats about it in my book close enough so dont give me that about the gear should be making any big differance.
Show us your brillant theorycrafting of making 90% of the dam sent has on live with same geared gwf on test, we are looking so forward to you teaching us ).
Best
Plz enlighten us with your only loose 5% dps as sent with your new build, we are eager to see you add anything of value.
Well.. it says.... And you quoted it... " And even then most don't have a chance." Meaning even if they out gear and skill me, they most of the time don't have a chance...
What are you even talking about :rolleyes:
all you are doing is bragging without any kind of proof so this is all i have to say: Gz and i hope all of us may find an inspiration in your amazing talent.
Back to the feedback of the GWF changes:
- INSTA needs MAJOR buffs
- SENT needs better agro gain
- DEST seems pretty "ok" now from my perspective.
Once CWs get toned down - I am a little worried that this will make CWs even more popular because of the nature of the adds...
IE:
Group of 10 mobs - currently 1 CW can AOE all of them down opens room for other classes.
If "nerfed" to a target cap of 5-8, now two CWs will be required or "desired" so they can AOE down. This is the nature of the issue for PVE. Just for simplicity sake.
they shouldnt touch cw target caps, they should either reduce dmg/target or just reduce dmg on aoe skills and these op buffs on thaum
Rather see them introduce different mechanics to the game, no need to nerf the CW at all TBH....
If SOME groups of ads were smaller groups of mobs that NEEDED to be tanked... That type of thing would reduce the benefit of CWs.
If they ever thought of making some groups of mobs magic resistant - that would reduce CWs.
If they every thought to maybe just give more classes non-capped abilities as well - that would fix the issue...
There are alot of things that would address this... withouyt a nerf needed.
forget about tanking, tanking has no place in action mmorpg outside of boss fight anyway. they would need to remake all dungeons or completely make over GF to make it viable.
GF cant aoe tank because of how shield works. GF is made as a boss tank, he can deal with 1 target but is useless vs many targets cause of mob cc spam, its easier just to cc the mobs than to tank them. GWF would be much better aoe tank(though its more like damage soak than real tanking) cause of unstoppable but there is no way in hell sent can hold aggro with equally geared dps.
this game has way too much hard cc and it ruins every aspect of the game
and magic/phys resistant mobs is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, why should i be forced to kick a friend out of party and get some random person because we cant do a dungeon without class X ?
I agree with your first part. Which is why I suggested changing the GF in that thread.
For the magic resistant mobs - you wouldnt be kicking anybody. It just means you cant run DC 4CW groups..... Which should already never be the case.
If you bring GF - they are melee
Bring a Tr - melee
HR - melee/physical
GWF - melee
The only two that do magic damage are DC/CW - so I dont see your point....
and if my friends dont like cw and play hr/tr/gwf/gf we cant run dungeons ?
If you make up a group with only meele no wizzy you ofc go to the temple or wizzy tower and get/pay for some magic that allows you to hit those fell creature with weapons.
If a cw needs to get to some mobs which are immune/resistant to magic he has to hire mercs to help him, np.
Full melee party = quest guy/girl who imbues weapons with magic that allows you to do magic dam.
Full cw+dc party = funs spells that summons worriors/deamons/monsters that fight for them ( would actualy be a cool idea even if full cw+dc partys are what we are trying to avoid here ).
This is a fantasy game trust me only your imagination is the limit.
But if you have 6 classes compeating for 5 spots in a group and one of those classes takes 2-4 spots something is seriously wrong with the balance of the game......
nope, never cared about them, this is an action mmorpg not pen and paper
Not the gwf that unbalances pve . He was self-employed , but, at least now, does not accumulate functions as well when our friend of jutsus .
therefore both challenges should be balanced , with the melee a little less dangerous than it is now , more and ranger .
It's too late for that ? As a mere tipster I think so .
So all I hope is that at least gwf keep doing old content as well as now, which includes maintaining and adjusting these buffs , perhaps improving the executioner style and giving to bf a smarter mechanical ( occurred to me that , being encounter one fixed value on the base damage , bring it is not a good deal and all the other encounters are multiplied by focused destroyer / destroyer porpose ) .
That's really what it comes down to and why Nerfing either CWs or GWFs is a bad idea and will only make the situation worse.
These are the AoE classes, designed to take down your Mass Mob encounters, and why the GWF/CW combo works more efficiently than any other in these dungeons. Because that's all there are is Mass Mobs.
The GF and Rogue are single target damagers designed to take down large, powerful single targets that need to be tanked and DPS'd down. Right now there's almost none of these that can utilize that tank/rogue combo on. Ergo... they never get used, because they have no place, they're the wrong tool for the job. They will never be able to compete or even hold ground to a CW/GWF crew that has all the AoEs no matter what you do because they were never designed for it.
One has short range but stronger ones (GWF) the other has weaker ones but larger area (CW).
All it really takes is to make more Single Target encounters for the Tank/Rogue combo. So they can actually participate and have a role again. AND there's very little in the dungeons that even bothers to melee you In terms of Boss Mobs and Single target mobs.
If you fix that single thing, things will work and they'll have a role again... BUT... if you just nerfed your AoEers who take on the Mass mobs for you, people end up stacking a ton of them and squeezing out the Tank/Rogue in groups.
Because you need so many of them just to make the group efficient and survivable that the Single Target classes get squeezed out anyway
So you end up cutting your own throat because you thought you could shorten the handle of your screwdriver to make the wrench more useful... but all you've got in your dungeons a bunch of screws. So you accomplish nothing. And make the situation even worse on all the other classes.
Which is why its hard for many to understand these concepts.
Ok look... I'll explain why the GWF and CW are the only parties you see, and why they go togather like cheese and crackers in this environment.
As a CW I absolutely suck at single target damage, My class was never designed for it It was designed for Mass Mob AoEs. If you want that, you grab a Rogue. BUT... the GWF fills the holes in the CW very nicely in a mass mob situation. You can stack mobs up on them and they can take it a hell of a lot more than I can as a squishy mage.
They are pummeling the mass mob targets in numbers of 3-5 or anything within reach of their blade. I am pummeling 15-20... so long as they're on the other guy and not me. Plus... remember that single target damage weakness that CWs have? Well the GWF takes over once you get to those.... as their attacks are stronger than mine... and they were designed as a seconday tank, not as good as a GF, but close enough they can substitute.
Combine this with dungeons filled with Mass Mobs and togather there's nothing better.
A GF and a Rogue? They're completely worthless to me. What are they going to do... set up on ONE of the thousand mobs and kill it? The GWF is wiping them 3-5 at a time. AND the stronger the mobs I do worse on.... they can handle the Elite ones mixed in like its nothing as to where I'm having to nuke the stronger elites multiple times to drop them. AND my good AoEs don't even go off on single mobs.
And there's no way in hell a GF or Rogue are ever going to be able to because their class just not designed for mass mob encounters. And it takes so many of us AoErs to plow through the mass mobs there's no room left for the Rogue and GF anymore.
So nerfing GWFs OR CWs doesn't do a **** thing to make anything better OR even balance anything. It just makes Rogues and GFs more and more unwanted.