Destroyer has received some buffs to damage aside from the deep gash nerf. But none make it a better spec than Sentinel/IV for PVP. The main differences with pre-mod3 destro and post, is the capstone buff and cooldown buffs. But the capstone buff will be of little importance in PvP because it doesn't provide any upfront increased damage, heck, you need to do 20 separate attacks to get the full effect. Except against opponents facetanking a GWF, meaning some GF and other GWFs.
Depending on what companions u take... i could see a Destro running with badger/whisp/rust monster/angel and stone. But in domination it will just die.
You can spec your destroyer, and gear it, to lose little tankyness compared to sentinel spec. And with new changes it seems to me that the DPS difference will be huge.
When i tested destroyer in icewind pass on preview, i could still tank a lot. Couldn't test it in PvP domination, but survivability didn't seem to be hurt too much compared to the DPS gain.
There have been nerfs to ap gen, and there will be nerfs to come.
ap nerf was general nerf all classes got it when they ended more ap for more targets on encounters but cw was only one who get 30% more ap gain when 1 target on some encounters no other class had recived improved ap gain on one target after ap nerf on more targets only cw did
GWF remain as strong as they were in PVE, at least overall damage wise. Survivability went down by a bit due to the lack of HoT from DG. With all the complaints you can see in the forums regarding Destroyer + PVP all I can say is inb4 the nerf. Funny how I was right months ago regarding the latter topic.
If devs nerf GWFs again then for sure this time GWF is gone forever. But until then i'm going to enjoy my silly 20k ibs crits with my 15k GWF.
So you think you do ridiculous crits and yet nerfing them would destroy them? What? I personally thought they'd still be ridiculous (at high gs), I just didn't bother to bring it up.
what the hell are you talking about? Now my cw with 1/3 of the power of my gwf, t1 weapon makes the shard the same non critical damage that my other character stacked destroyer.
other day a cw spent a video of him using this power tab in against a lot of well-equipped player and winning , but everyone was mocking the guy.
is the most classic of this forum "I do not like pve pve why has no challenge, but if pvp is challenging ... ah ... nerf the "challenge"."
So you think you do ridiculous crits and yet nerfing them would destroy them? What? I personally thought they'd still be ridiculous (at high gs), I just didn't bother to bring it up.
Yes, if Destroyer is nerfed any more than we would not be able to kill anything equal to our GS before we die as well. Right now, our ridiculous crits are what levels the playing field with all the perma TRs that last forever without burst, Deflect REGEN HRs that are still quite OP at High GSes and profound set, and even CWs would be difficult to take down due to the endless stamina/regen builds pvpers employ now. Destroyer PVP is just tanky enough to survive to build determination and burst the enemy in 1v1, but if nerfed further then destroyers would be dead and only node holding sentinels would be pvp viable, while GWFs in PVE would be at the same point that HRs/TRs are right now in PVE, which is very unwanted.
Prior to mod 3 Destroyers were still very pvp viable, but completely overshadowed by the IV sent steamroller. Now IV sent and IV dest occupy different roles in pvp but are both equally viable and in a 1v1 between 2 equally geared specs from both builds neither have an inherent advantage over the other, whereas before the IV sent would have a significant advantage since they deal almost as much damage as the destroyer because of deep gash and SotS while being twice as tanky.
Yes, if Destroyer is nerfed any more than we would not be able to kill anything equal to our GS before we die as well. Right now, our ridiculous crits are what levels the playing field with all the perma TRs that last forever without burst, Deflect REGEN HRs that are still quite OP at High GSes and profound set, and even CWs would be difficult to take down due to the endless stamina/regen builds pvpers employ now. Destroyer PVP is just tanky enough to survive to build determination and burst the enemy in 1v1, but if nerfed further then destroyers would be dead and only node holding sentinels would be pvp viable, while GWFs in PVE would be at the same point that HRs/TRs are right now in PVE, which is very unwanted.
Prior to mod 3 Destroyers were still very pvp viable, but completely overshadowed by the IV sent steamroller. Now IV sent and IV dest occupy different roles in pvp but are both equally viable and in a 1v1 between 2 equally geared specs from both builds neither have an inherent advantage over the other, whereas before the IV sent would have a significant advantage since they deal almost as much damage as the destroyer because of deep gash and SotS while being twice as tanky.
Agree with this almost completely!
GWF is finally ALMOST balanced. They did a pretty good job, I think deep gash nerf was a little harsh, they should buff it back some for sure.
Destroyer is ok, but it's way more squishy than a sent, so I think they should just buff their deflect or something so the hits aren't as hard.
Personally, my GWF is super fun to play but I do think its a little ridiculous atm...
I think just the destroyer feat needs a tone down in the Dest tree and if they remove the 10% buff to encounters while unstoppable in the final tier that would actually balance the class some.
After playing my Dest GWF I definitely notice I am much much more killable than playing a Sent.
1v1 versus a Sent they will only win if they get lucky crits with a vorpal. If I have any time to build determination and therefore stacks, its GG. But I have been 1 shot combod by Sents before even after the nerf.
I would much rather see TRs being able to spec non-perma in a viable build as well as CWs ARP finally working.
All of that, imo, would be nice balance to those classes.
Then DCs just need a re-work since atm they arent really viable for much, same with GFs - hopefully this will come soon.
What I dislike about you and ayroux is that you're saying: Sentinel GWF is useless, and yet neither of you are posting numbers. Neither of you are running a BiS gwf. Neither of you are theorycrafting. There's plenty of workarounds, you're whining over nothing.
Just gonna quote myself. Sent GWF > Destroyer GWF still for pvp. Destroyer GWF is definitely more fun. I told you all that there were viable builds. /Hold My Node out
Personally, my GWF is super fun to play but I do think its a little ridiculous atm...
I think just the destroyer feat needs a tone down in the Dest tree and if they remove the 10% buff to encounters while unstoppable in the final tier that would actually balance the class some.
After playing my Dest GWF I definitely notice I am much much more killable than playing a Sent.
1v1 versus a Sent they will only win if they get lucky crits with a vorpal. If I have any time to build determination and therefore stacks, its GG. But I have been 1 shot combod by Sents before even after the nerf.
I would much rather see TRs being able to spec non-perma in a viable build as well as CWs ARP finally working.
All of that, imo, would be nice balance to those classes.
Then DCs just need a re-work since atm they arent really viable for much, same with GFs - hopefully this will come soon.
You have been very vocal on test through this whole process, and last I knew you didn't think GWFs were going to be OP at all.... I blame a lot of absurdity on you!
Posting advice privileges REVOKED!!! You have proven yourself to be unreliable.
P.S. Sent is STILL op as hell.... WTF are you talking about man??!?! It's just not quite as op as destro is now, but destroyer has progressed BEYOND HAMSTER OP so not a good thing to measure sent against....
I still maintain that you need to stop sir..... Just friggen stop.
0
kaiserschmarrnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 390
Guys, I have read the whole thread and want to step in and point something out. We are actively thinking about CWs and what to do with them right now (although I cannot give a timeline on anything relating to that right now). Balance is a really delicate situation and not one we make drastic changes to lightly. This was a case where if we did nothing every single GWF would have lost a substantial portion of their performance with no buffs to compensate. That said, this is why we put things like this on the preview shard. We want you guys to test it and get a feel for the intent and direction the class is moving so you can help shape it.
To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times.
With all that in mind, please look at GWF performance alongside TR and HR as those are much closer to the performance values we would like to see. And we are aware of the struggle of Sentinels trying to hold threat and still be survivable. We want to examine tanking but we don't know when we will have something ready for that because it is a very difficult and complex set of changes to make Tanking feel gratifying without disabling gameplay for other players.
First things first - the CW is a great class, fun to play and feels powerful (as a wizard should).
BUT...
If you change the CW or the mechanics around the class then you really need to look at the whole game. The problem is that your entire end-game and all the high-end dungeons make a good CW mandatory if a group wants to experience that content without becoming frustrated. The CW is the only class providing enough control and aoe damage to deal with the endless spam of adds that most boss fights consist of.
The CW and it's synergies with the dungeon mechanics have been the biggest flaw of the game since it's release and unfortunately the designers have dug their own pit here. Because since launch the class has been increasingly buffed and there has been almost no change in dungeon design, Castle Never and Spell Plague are probably the worst examples here, but also the new dungeons make a CW mandatory.
If you change the core mechanics it will create ripples throughout the whole game. Significant changes to the CW will only become possible if the whole end-game content and the other classes receive a complete balance overhaul. By ignoring the problem for so long it has become far bigger than it should ever have been and any balance snapshot has the potential to ruin the whole experience for the players.
Feedback Destroyer:
At the moment it seems all DoT enchants and feats are allowing me to get destroyer purpose stacks. This should not be happening. Problem is, I'm getting my stacks in about 3 at-wills and then getting an encounter rotation in with maximum benefit long before my unstoppable ends. This means I do an incredibly high burst of damage too fast. I notice when using a Perfect Vorpal I cannot get up to 20 stacks in a full unstoppable unless my target is not kiting me at all. In PvE I would be hitting more than 1 target constantly, or be able to build 20 stacks over the course of many unstoppables. I think this would be fine and I think most GWF players would agree.
Feedback Destroyer:
At the moment it seems all DoT enchants and feats are allowing me to get destroyer purpose stacks. This should not be happening. Problem is, I'm getting my stacks in about 3 at-wills and then getting an encounter rotation in with maximum benefit long before my unstoppable ends. This means I do an incredibly high burst of damage too fast. I notice when using a Perfect Vorpal I cannot get up to 20 stacks in a full unstoppable unless my target is not kiting me at all. In PvE I would be hitting more than 1 target constantly, or be able to build 20 stacks over the course of many unstoppables. I think this would be fine and I think most GWF players would agree.
I have to say I really think GWFs need a tone down. The roar correction will fix SOME of the GWF issues however I still think the GWF class just hits WAY too hard. There are TWO primary reasons for this:
BUG: "Focused Destroyer": Allows for ANY attack to proc a destoryer stack AND increased damage on each stack by 3.5%. This means that each stack is a 7.5% damage boost, for a total with 3 up to 22.5% damage increase - I think this feat however is applying the damage in the wrong area because the ACTUAL damage boost I gain from this is close to 40% - using the tooltip.
FEEDBACK:
Destroyer's Purpose: This now gives a 2% damage boost per stack, stacks 20 times. This is really easy to get because it works with all DoTs/Procs etc, so anything that deals damage.
- Feedback Idea #1: To make this like Destroyer (class feature) stacks where ONLY actual attacks proc these stacks - making it MUCH harder to get full stacks. This would tone GWFs down quite a bit. Also remove the 10% bonus damage to encounters while unstoppable.
- Feedback Idea #2: Again, Remove the 10% encounter damage bonus on this feat, AND reduce the damage bonus per stack to 1%, AND make this a 30 stack feat. This would decrease damage by 10% total.
Either of these changes I think would bring GWFs back inline with other classes. If you dont fix the Destroyer stacks, then a small nerf to the Destroyer Purpose feat would be necessary... But right now we have TWO feats that increase our damage by roughly 40% each, giving us AMAZING damage...
For the capstone, Option 1 makes it harder to gain stacks but still amazing damage, option 2 is easier to gain stacks than option 1 (because of the DOTs etc) but a little harder than current and the damage is toned back a bit.
Either way the GWF Destroyer hits WAY too hard currently and it really makes me sad to open my friends list and only see green and red class colors (HR/GWF) Most of my GF friends are either quitting or rolling GWFs, even people that play other classes like CWs/DCs/TRs are also now rolling GWFs and the new "troll" meta that is unbeatable - almost, is 4/5 GWF teams.
MY only fear in pointing this out is that right now the only way a GWF can beat a HR 1v1 on a node in PVP is through his insane burst damage. To be brutally frank, HR dodges need to get nerfed HARD back more like a TR/CW where its longer range and less often, because most HRs who spec right almost infinite dodge+have amazing damage abilities - it really is the most OP class atm aside from GWFs.
I have to say I really think GWFs need a tone down. The roar correction will fix SOME of the GWF issues however I still think the GWF class just hits WAY too hard.
GWF needs all this damage for PvE.
GWF should also have this kind of damage in PvP - if they go glass cannon, 22K HP with low defenses.
So IMO the way to limit GWF to a normal PvP class is to change their Tenacity gear, or to make their damage go down as DR and HP go up. Being a hard hitter like this (which is OK, nothing bad here) should mean GWF tradeoffs their tankyness, however this is hardly the case, as we still roll with 42K+ HP and insane damage reduction...
Comments
Depending on what companions u take... i could see a Destro running with badger/whisp/rust monster/angel and stone. But in domination it will just die.
When i tested destroyer in icewind pass on preview, i could still tank a lot. Couldn't test it in PvP domination, but survivability didn't seem to be hurt too much compared to the DPS gain.
ap nerf was general nerf all classes got it when they ended more ap for more targets on encounters but cw was only one who get 30% more ap gain when 1 target on some encounters no other class had recived improved ap gain on one target after ap nerf on more targets only cw did
What awakening? Where? I'm hitting 25K+ IBS on people in PvP Domination and they still have lots and lots of trouble killing me.
Long live the GWF. Still as good as it was.
As for PvE, nobody cares. Content is easy enough to do it at 12K GS.
Yup! GWF's are actually more OP... As I've been saying, over and over. It's fun as hell!! Thanks cryptic, knew we could count on you =D
Wait until we get our black ice gear!!!! Lol it's going to be soooo stupid =D
Wait for it....
I TOLD YOU SO!
I do not care for pvp, if I cared, I would use the dodge.
Did you switch to Destroyer or still as Sent?
So you think you do ridiculous crits and yet nerfing them would destroy them? What? I personally thought they'd still be ridiculous (at high gs), I just didn't bother to bring it up.
other day a cw spent a video of him using this power tab in against a lot of well-equipped player and winning , but everyone was mocking the guy.
is the most classic of this forum "I do not like pve pve why has no challenge, but if pvp is challenging ... ah ... nerf the "challenge"."
Yes, if Destroyer is nerfed any more than we would not be able to kill anything equal to our GS before we die as well. Right now, our ridiculous crits are what levels the playing field with all the perma TRs that last forever without burst, Deflect REGEN HRs that are still quite OP at High GSes and profound set, and even CWs would be difficult to take down due to the endless stamina/regen builds pvpers employ now. Destroyer PVP is just tanky enough to survive to build determination and burst the enemy in 1v1, but if nerfed further then destroyers would be dead and only node holding sentinels would be pvp viable, while GWFs in PVE would be at the same point that HRs/TRs are right now in PVE, which is very unwanted.
Prior to mod 3 Destroyers were still very pvp viable, but completely overshadowed by the IV sent steamroller. Now IV sent and IV dest occupy different roles in pvp but are both equally viable and in a 1v1 between 2 equally geared specs from both builds neither have an inherent advantage over the other, whereas before the IV sent would have a significant advantage since they deal almost as much damage as the destroyer because of deep gash and SotS while being twice as tanky.
Agree with this almost completely!
GWF is finally ALMOST balanced. They did a pretty good job, I think deep gash nerf was a little harsh, they should buff it back some for sure.
Destroyer is ok, but it's way more squishy than a sent, so I think they should just buff their deflect or something so the hits aren't as hard.
my HR aimed-shot critted 30k+, 100k+ on pve, with your logic a lot of skills isn't balanced
I think just the destroyer feat needs a tone down in the Dest tree and if they remove the 10% buff to encounters while unstoppable in the final tier that would actually balance the class some.
After playing my Dest GWF I definitely notice I am much much more killable than playing a Sent.
1v1 versus a Sent they will only win if they get lucky crits with a vorpal. If I have any time to build determination and therefore stacks, its GG. But I have been 1 shot combod by Sents before even after the nerf.
I would much rather see TRs being able to spec non-perma in a viable build as well as CWs ARP finally working.
All of that, imo, would be nice balance to those classes.
Then DCs just need a re-work since atm they arent really viable for much, same with GFs - hopefully this will come soon.
ibs; fallen dragon weapon. 8200 power:
5824-7022.
aimad shot, 4000 power ... blue weapon: 5431-6491
it is amazing what is not said, is to bring nerf to gwf, is to take advantage of How nice is.
Just gonna quote myself. Sent GWF > Destroyer GWF still for pvp. Destroyer GWF is definitely more fun. I told you all that there were viable builds. /Hold My Node out
You have been very vocal on test through this whole process, and last I knew you didn't think GWFs were going to be OP at all.... I blame a lot of absurdity on you!
Posting advice privileges REVOKED!!! You have proven yourself to be unreliable.
P.S. Sent is STILL op as hell.... WTF are you talking about man??!?! It's just not quite as op as destro is now, but destroyer has progressed BEYOND HAMSTER OP so not a good thing to measure sent against....
I still maintain that you need to stop sir..... Just friggen stop.
First things first - the CW is a great class, fun to play and feels powerful (as a wizard should).
BUT...
If you change the CW or the mechanics around the class then you really need to look at the whole game. The problem is that your entire end-game and all the high-end dungeons make a good CW mandatory if a group wants to experience that content without becoming frustrated. The CW is the only class providing enough control and aoe damage to deal with the endless spam of adds that most boss fights consist of.
The CW and it's synergies with the dungeon mechanics have been the biggest flaw of the game since it's release and unfortunately the designers have dug their own pit here. Because since launch the class has been increasingly buffed and there has been almost no change in dungeon design, Castle Never and Spell Plague are probably the worst examples here, but also the new dungeons make a CW mandatory.
If you change the core mechanics it will create ripples throughout the whole game. Significant changes to the CW will only become possible if the whole end-game content and the other classes receive a complete balance overhaul. By ignoring the problem for so long it has become far bigger than it should ever have been and any balance snapshot has the potential to ruin the whole experience for the players.
I'm not sure it's a bug at this point. This is going on since forever.
i know its been passing cc immmunity for quite long time but i dont know why in mod 3 the root from roar last 2x longer than it used to
At the moment it seems all DoT enchants and feats are allowing me to get destroyer purpose stacks. This should not be happening. Problem is, I'm getting my stacks in about 3 at-wills and then getting an encounter rotation in with maximum benefit long before my unstoppable ends. This means I do an incredibly high burst of damage too fast. I notice when using a Perfect Vorpal I cannot get up to 20 stacks in a full unstoppable unless my target is not kiting me at all. In PvE I would be hitting more than 1 target constantly, or be able to build 20 stacks over the course of many unstoppables. I think this would be fine and I think most GWF players would agree.
After thoroughly testing the new GWF Destroyer tree (compilation video can be seen here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjPHApv65BI)
I have to say I really think GWFs need a tone down. The roar correction will fix SOME of the GWF issues however I still think the GWF class just hits WAY too hard. There are TWO primary reasons for this:
BUG: "Focused Destroyer": Allows for ANY attack to proc a destoryer stack AND increased damage on each stack by 3.5%. This means that each stack is a 7.5% damage boost, for a total with 3 up to 22.5% damage increase - I think this feat however is applying the damage in the wrong area because the ACTUAL damage boost I gain from this is close to 40% - using the tooltip.
FEEDBACK:
Destroyer's Purpose: This now gives a 2% damage boost per stack, stacks 20 times. This is really easy to get because it works with all DoTs/Procs etc, so anything that deals damage.
- Feedback Idea #1: To make this like Destroyer (class feature) stacks where ONLY actual attacks proc these stacks - making it MUCH harder to get full stacks. This would tone GWFs down quite a bit. Also remove the 10% bonus damage to encounters while unstoppable.
- Feedback Idea #2: Again, Remove the 10% encounter damage bonus on this feat, AND reduce the damage bonus per stack to 1%, AND make this a 30 stack feat. This would decrease damage by 10% total.
Either of these changes I think would bring GWFs back inline with other classes. If you dont fix the Destroyer stacks, then a small nerf to the Destroyer Purpose feat would be necessary... But right now we have TWO feats that increase our damage by roughly 40% each, giving us AMAZING damage...
For the capstone, Option 1 makes it harder to gain stacks but still amazing damage, option 2 is easier to gain stacks than option 1 (because of the DOTs etc) but a little harder than current and the damage is toned back a bit.
Either way the GWF Destroyer hits WAY too hard currently and it really makes me sad to open my friends list and only see green and red class colors (HR/GWF) Most of my GF friends are either quitting or rolling GWFs, even people that play other classes like CWs/DCs/TRs are also now rolling GWFs and the new "troll" meta that is unbeatable - almost, is 4/5 GWF teams.
MY only fear in pointing this out is that right now the only way a GWF can beat a HR 1v1 on a node in PVP is through his insane burst damage. To be brutally frank, HR dodges need to get nerfed HARD back more like a TR/CW where its longer range and less often, because most HRs who spec right almost infinite dodge+have amazing damage abilities - it really is the most OP class atm aside from GWFs.
I do not use iv, for example. Who will say create a super cool music video to demonstrate how powerful my gwf is and NOT should be.
GWF needs all this damage for PvE.
GWF should also have this kind of damage in PvP - if they go glass cannon, 22K HP with low defenses.
So IMO the way to limit GWF to a normal PvP class is to change their Tenacity gear, or to make their damage go down as DR and HP go up. Being a hard hitter like this (which is OK, nothing bad here) should mean GWF tradeoffs their tankyness, however this is hardly the case, as we still roll with 42K+ HP and insane damage reduction...
How can you tell when the classes are unbalanced?
Answer:
When players choosing to bring 3-5 GWFs to PvP. And not play at all if there are only 1-2 GWFs online.