degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
I'm not sure TRs have any other option besides going perma. Cryptic nerfed their DPS like crazy and it truly is the only way they can survive. Sadly, this QQ thread is simply the result of dozens of other QQ threads. Nerf them anymore and they'll be about as viable as DCs are now in PVP.
I'm not sure TRs have any other option besides going perma.
Don't know about high GS premade vs. premade, but my playstyle "ambush, burst and vanish in shadows" is quite viable in ~12K GS PUGs. I'm utilizing stealth very much, but not in "perma" style. Although I try to prolong stealth with shadow strike as much as I can or use it as escape option, depending on situation on the battlefield.
Not a chance to fight out of stealth, unless my opponent is already weak and I can risk going ITC and in 5s bring him to the Shocking Execution HP threshold. But no stealth nor ITC means my TR is defensless as a baby and dies in 90% of such 1v1s.
So yeah, TRs are forced to use stealth in PvP. Anyway, when someone with higher skills is in the match, stealth does not mean much since he can counter my stealth by smart usage of powers and predicting my behaviour.
Also killing HRs is very difficult for my build/tactics, and HR + CW is guranteed death for me.
Ratharel - stealthy backstabber from the Myth Drannor
TR is fine. Only thing that needs to be nerfed is Shocking Execution. A quite simple solution would be make it a non-crit skill just like path of the blade. And make sure it doesn't go through tenacity.
Hi everybody, this is just my two cents contributing to the whole perma-stealth debate (yet another thread on this topic!). Instead of nerfing perma-stealth (which will probably nerf stealth in general, hurting all rogues and near-perma-stealthers)....
PVE: make creatures flail about when you're hitting them, or "see" you when you're next to them, like PVP. Right now, most of them just stand there stupidly or deploy a half-hearted encounter power while you're damaging them from stealth. This alone would make soloing epic dungeons much harder.
PVP: give all classes more stealth-busting abilities and/or feats, or augment existing ones with some more anti-stealth mechanisms. This might make the "nerf" more player skill-oriented, and would be an acceptable challenge to perma-stealthers. A player's skill and knowledge of the game would allow them to bust or keep their perma-stealth (which is already true, of course, but may offer more possibilities to a wider group of players) Thoughts?
We've been driven to a point where efficiency equates to PotB/SS/ITC + SE. Currently trying not to jump in the bandwagon but the prospects are pretty enticing. It's a really effective setup for PVP, as you get to attack others for 10 seconds without much effort. It's a rinse and repeat rotation which fits very well for the current meta, and it's probably the only way you'll also be able to counter a TR who uses a similar rotation.
I have a simple "fix" that won't affect PVE at all. Make it where being in stealth damages you for 1 HP every 10 seconds, that way healing depression is always in effect when a rogue is in stealth. It's pretty easy to knock a perma out of stealth, the problem is the good ones don't die in one rotation and go right back into stealth/immune and regen all there health pretty quickly.
Hi everybody, this is just my two cents contributing to the whole perma-stealth debate (yet another thread on this topic!). Instead of nerfing perma-stealth (which will probably nerf stealth in general, hurting all rogues and near-perma-stealthers)....
PVE: make creatures flail about when you're hitting them, or "see" you when you're next to them, like PVP. Right now, most of them just stand there stupidly or deploy a half-hearted encounter power while you're damaging them from stealth. This alone would make soloing epic dungeons much harder.
PVP: give all classes more stealth-busting abilities and/or feats, or augment existing ones with some more anti-stealth mechanisms. This might make the "nerf" more player skill-oriented, and would be an acceptable challenge to perma-stealthers. A player's skill and knowledge of the game would allow them to bust or keep their perma-stealth (which is already true, of course, but may offer more possibilities to a wider group of players) Thoughts?
All classes already have numerous means of busting stealth, and there is no need to make further changes. For those who seem unable to use other skills that have been shown time and time again to be very effective at dealing with permastealth TR's, they can use a lantern artifact.
One thing that has been consistent in all the QQ'ing about permastealth is how very rarely it actually is about permastealth but stealth as a whole. Stealth is the core mechanic for the TR and further weakening it in effect breaks the class.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Tbh the only thing that;s annoying from perma stealth is their ability to keep dodging and also have alot of extra speed so is very easy for a TR to disengage. Even as a GWF with 20% extra speed plus slows i cant close the distance on all TR;s, only thing that keeps me close is to slot punishing charge but that only works on a TR that doesnt change directions.
Totally agree, there are tons of stealth-busting mechanisms. As a TR myself, when I meet a good player who knows how to deal with stealth, I'm done for, and I appreciate and enjoy that challenge. I'm just thinking about the psychology of all the people who are convincing Cryptic to possibly nerf stealth into oblivion. Maybe if they have MORE options and a big deal is made of it, that will help silence them. But then again, probably not.
I thought I would chime in and comment because I keep reading about all these "reveal" rogues in stealth mechanics/encounters....This game doesnt have traditional hotbars. I cant just say" oh there's a rogue nearby let me cast my otherwise useless encounter so I can possibly detect him if he's stupid enough to be that close to me or not dodge it...no biggie, its on my hotbar...". Instead , am I really expected to slot this encounter that is pretty useless for 90% of my fights...Maybe my GF block should only be broken by some useless skill, so all should have to slot it to fight a GF effectively?
I don't really understand those who defend this broken play style...a rogue with no stealth ( other then the initial attack..which should be a daze, stun, prone..(rework the skills slightly maybe) is kinda like a GF with no block, no? I mean sure the GF has more defense and HP, but the rogue has way more dps..and God forbid has to rely on his teammates for a change?
just floating ideas's out there...but i do agree..if the perma stealth issue isn't dealt with, Neverwinter pvp will be Rogue's vs Rogues ...
I thought I would chime in and comment because I keep reading about all these "reveal" rogues in stealth mechanics/encounters....This game doesnt have traditional hotbars. I cant just say" oh there's a rogue nearby let me cast my otherwise useless encounter so I can possibly detect him if he's stupid enough to be that close to me or not dodge it...no biggie, its on my hotbar...". Instead , am I really expected to slot this encounter that is pretty useless for 90% of my fights...Maybe my GF block should only be broken by some useless skill, so all should have to slot it to fight a GF effectively?
I don't really understand those who defend this broken play style...a rogue with no stealth ( other then the initial attack..which should be a daze, stun, prone..(rework the skills slightly maybe) is kinda like a GF with no block, no? I mean sure the GF has more defense and HP, but the rogue has way more dps..and God forbid has to rely on his teammates for a change?
just floating ideas's out there...but i do agree..if the perma stealth issue isn't dealt with, Neverwinter pvp will be Rogue's vs Rogues ...
I change my encounters around all the time. It's called adapting. And it takes all of 10 seconds to do.
If you really think that's unreasonable then there's probably nothing that will ever satisfy you.
ok, next time i'm on a point with a gwf/cw/hr/whatever attacking me with a stealthed rogue in there, I'll press c, change my skills to slot uhmmm oh , maybe enforced threat..and watch as i get beat on as my 10sec cooldown ticks......I'll tell u what will satisfy me..an opponent that i can see at least 50% of the time...
ok, next time i'm on a point with a gwf/cw/hr/whatever attacking me with a stealthed rogue in there, I'll press c, change my skills to slot uhmmm oh , maybe enforced threat..and watch as i get beat on as my 10sec cooldown ticks......I'll tell u what will satisfy me..an opponent that i can see at least 50% of the time...
You should have plenty of time to change your encounters at the campfire.
I like permas. They mean that everyone assumes all Rogues are permas with no DPS, and that means I get to surprise a lot of people. Like the GF who thought he could just tank repeated DFs.
You should have plenty of time to change your encounters at the campfire.
I like permas. They mean that everyone assumes all Rogues are permas with no DPS, and that means I get to surprise a lot of people. Like the GF who thought he could just tank repeated DFs.
How is changing my skills at the campfire gonna help? Only useless skills like enforced threat are AOE on GF..so i have to slot that at campfire..plz..get real. And as dumb as it sounds..why should i have to, u dont have to slot useless skills to get thorough my shield.. Stealth should drain FAST when u attack...i understand its a class feature, but this would even the playing field more...God forbid rogues have to use strategy and rely on team support to conquer their opponents
Zolron, many of us change our skills when fighting specific opponents, I slot Path of the blade or the teleporting strike depending if I'm fighint a rogue or a mage for instance. It's not hard. Why can't we do it and you can't? Why do you assume that 1 skill setup should work for EVERY battle in the game?
I agree to nerf perma stealth its just not fair, sure there are ways to decloak stealth with an artifact but why should you have to use 1 artifact just specialize in finding a rouge leaving you without the one you want to use?
Perhaps we should all be able to go invisible and that would make pvp interesting or very very dull as it would feel as if you where alone :P
Anyway thats my solution when the rouge strikes he/she is decloaked.
Perma stealth is a completely ridiculous mechanic which is hard to counter. If they kept the cloud of steel gradually revealing them I wouldn't have much of a problem with them if they had to be in melee to attack. Of course top geared gwfs are also ridiculous. Rogues can even be buffed in other ways just as long as they can still be countered.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
50%? That much? You are my hero, please post your build please!
I was probably being kind
I'll post my build sometime though. Just basic MI/Exe/P.Vorpal. All you do is DF in stealth, use SS to keep up stealth, and finish each flurry with WR. WR in singularity is huge, so make sure you do that!
I have been following this discussion pretty closely and while I have played a TR pretty extensively myself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Nq7uJSe1k) I have not kept up my TR when artifacts (Mod 2) came into the picture so my current experience is more from someone who constantly plays against TRs on my GWF and as a GF. That said, my entire goal is balance not "nerfs" and I think there is no "nerf" needed to the class but slight changes would really balance it well.
THE FIX FOR STEALTH -
CHANGE the class feature "Sneak Attack" do to what the 4e rules say: Sneak attack makes you deal more damage.
"Once per turn, when a rogue with the Sneak Attack class feature attacks, the attack deals extra damage. The amount of extra damage is determined by the rogue's level"
So why does it give run speed? This is PART of the issue with TRs is NOT that they can attack in stealth but that they can run SO much faster than any class WHILE in stealth... You dont need to nerf stealth, its the class features that need adjusting. If you changed this feature TRs would complain a little less about not dealing enough damage, and less people would complain about the perma TR in PVP running around and not being able to be hit...
The mobility is the key, not the stealth mechanic itself... The perma build works at holding nodes so well and in general so well because the mobility is incredible... Players who spec correctly can get close to mount speeds (not epic obv) IN stealth....
This sounds alot like First Strike, however I think just changing it to make "your encounter powers deal 2/4/6% more damage" would suffice well. This would provide nice incentive to use encounters - since they get the damage boost, rather than stealth refill things like Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch. So basically its the "endless assault" feat but an additional class feature to even further your damage if needed.
ADDITIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS:
- Lashing Blade: Change the "stealth bonus" from "Guaranteed to crit" to "50% reduced CD". Then also change the attack to dealing 50% of its current damage upfront and 50% DOT for 5 seconds(consider that in light of the profound 7.5% buff along with the *NEW* Sneak Attack Feature. This provides more DPS while less burst damage along with the encounter being useful again in PVP and PVE with the reduced CD.
- Smoke Bomb: Change the "stealth bonus" from "now adds a slow affect" to something LIKE "Enemies affected by smoke bomb have 10% less Damage Resist" --- OR --- "Enemies now take damage per second if affected by smoke bomb" This provides more utility to encounters both in pvp and pve. (Imagine Smoke Bomb + POTB for AOE)
- Shadow Strike: Should NOT refill stealth if the strike is dodged. Plain and Simple.
- Impact Shot: Remove the "increased damage based on charges" and just give it TWO charges (still no charges consumed while in stealth). Truth be told, this encounter is messed up because your tooltip damage DROPS if you stealth, meaning the math is messing up somewhere... Fixing this would make it a viable encounter again, where as its not right now.
- Shocking Execution: I really dont think this ability needs much re-work. I think it ignoring DR is cool. I would just like to see the "bonus damage" not kick in until around the 35% HP mark. As this truly is supposed to be an "execute". (FYI, its not posted yet that I know of, but there is a SS/video of a TR doing 149k SE crit just a few days ago).
These changes would give TRs ALOT of viable builds while not actually flat out "nerfing" them. The "Perma" build will be less effective due to the run speed nerf. The "DPS TR" will be more effective due to the new sneak attack along with the changes to lashing/impact/SB.
raise your hand if you would like to see TRs dealing good damage again and not being FORCED to hide 24/7 in stealth or ITC.
Hi. The main reason the TR got nerfed was because we dealt immense single target damage, not because of stealth builds. Permastealth and every high Stealth builds people see nowadays are a reaction to the nerfs we received. We have been gimped to the point where not playing with a Stealth build will not allow us to survive in this CC-heavy meta, where the goal of PVP is to somehow prevent your opponents from reacting from your attacks while you nuke them to spawn. This is what PVP is. TR's have ZERO CC's, with DPS getting gimped further and further after each balance patch, further promoting TR's to play with Stealth builds.
If people think it's not fun to play against a class that counters the CC meta everyone else are currently promoting, it's also not fun to play PVP against players who think chain CC's to death are fun. Nerf Stealth, but give us the same tools as everyone else; which is CC.
1. Lashing Blade: 50% more damage from Stealth. Prone the target.
2. Deft Strike: Root the target when used from Stealth.
3. Dazing Strike: 50% less activation time from Stealth. Reduce cooldown by 50% from Stealth.
4. Blitz: Increase damage.
5. Path of the Blades: Increase the damage, allow it to crit, allow it to proc weapon enchantment effects.
6. Wicked Reminder: Increase the damage based on the number of Wicked Reminder debuff stacks.
7. Shadow Strike: Refill Stealth, pull target towards you.
8. Impact Shot: Increase damage when used from Stealth. Remove the DPS nerf based on charges.
9. Bait and Switch: Make it explode or something. We're Rogues but we no has explodes.
10. And more.
Yes. Basically, rework the entire class. As it is right now, if Stealth gets reworked while majority of our skills and feats stay as they are, our overall efficiency for PVP will go down with it. Give us back our original abilities, Sneak Attack dealing 25% more damage from Stealth, Lurker's Assault dealing 60% more damage, Lashing Blade dealing 50% damage when used from Stealth, Deft Strike being an At-Will etc. A lot of things have been taken from us to sate the complaints of other classes. But we all know the amount of complaints really will not change because people will always have different self-serving opinions of what other classes should do while refusing to understand what it is that they were designed for.
I already said in my post that if stealth gets nerfed, in either way that i suggested, that they should get their DPS back. They are meant to be a high single target damage class but as long as the perma build is allowed people are going to be very unhappy.
As for your suggestion on giving TR CC....no. They already have smoke bomb, not only that, every class shouldn't be able to do anything it wants. You don't see a CW healing others or a GWF going into stealth, classes need to be different, balanced, but different.
Hi. The main reason the TR got nerfed was because we dealt immense single target damage, not because of stealth builds. Permastealth and every high Stealth builds people see nowadays are a reaction to the nerfs we received.
Which I'm very aware of and probably why i suggest nerfing stealth and giving them back their DPS, no?
why i suggest nerfing stealth and giving them back their DPS, no?
I think the key is DPS and not just "burst" from my experience playing a TR they had massive burst potential - the burst is what needed to be fixed not necessarily the DPS. THe issue is they nerfed burst damage and basically forced all TRs into a defensive play rather than just dropping some burst but building DPS elsewhere.
I would love to see more utility abilities/effects on TR encounters and also some DPS boosts but the "perma build" quite honestly just makes pvp not even fun...
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doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
edited March 2014
My point being is that their damage is not nerfed, again because the latest and greatest craze is now using bile thorn dots, so yeah those dagger throws hurt, sure at one time a volley of daggers throws hurt but didn't kill but still if they couldn't be knocked out of stealth or it even run out you'd die, it would just take longer. Basically everyone is saying if you can't fight them run away, which means let someone just sit on a node without being able to be attacked, yeah right.
I will say again, I personally don't care they can burst or could have, thats probably one area I can agree they probably have been nerfed to death, however I don't' think i've been playing that long so I don't think I have seen them like that. If they went around a battlefield back stabbing everything invisible and killing 1 player ever second then yeah that needed to be fixed, but having to build up a daily to do it or having a somewhat long CD, I don't see what the big deal is/was.
Right now as it stands people say they can be knocked out, well read my posts again or if I didn't mention it in this thread here it is again:
I have hit rogues with lantern (or missed as i never see them and the aoe is small not to mention the time to reveal invis is short). I have hit them with RoE CoI before they have gone invis and they still stealth and they stayed stealthed and those two dots should be doing a fair amount of damage. Maybe the complaint is coming from running against a bunch of overly geared rogues, but the fact remains they are NOT targetable while stealthed just sucks.
To address numerous issues with people saying to AoE here is my 2 cents.
During pvp CoI can only hit someone you can see, the only AoE that can be used is ST and Shard, the latter being stupidly easy to avoid the explosion from a giant ball sitting there. ST i'm told can knock them out of stealth but as of now I cannot confirm nor deny if it still works or just worked prior to pvp gear sets/tenacity. OF I have used many times as it does good damage with a good area, but still i have seen numbers tick from it hitting, but it does NOT knock them out of stealth.
I'm all for a viable TR class, clearly more thought should have went into that classes design. It should have been for lack of a better comparison glass cannon class, it can deal out devastating damage but probably have the survivability of a CW, using stealth to leave combat or dump aggro if generating too much threat.
However some say they shouldn't have cc t hat is the role of CW. I say this in response. First off TR could make an option for a good cc class to make them viable, not all CW control some focus on just dealing damage with ever the slightest hint of control (which basically means they use singularity and or ST pretty exclusively). But not all CW's even do that, I started off just focusing on dealing damage. TR could make a nice variant, have a path that can be control or have a path that can obliterate stuff. Other MMO's i've seen seem to use this concept, where a class can potentially fit two roles. Star Wars being one such example where the light armored class of the jedi consular could actually be a tank through one specialized skill tree, or it could be a healer class through another tree, or straight up dps in another. Point being some or all classes can fill certain roles if they choose that path, but the current class system doesn't really allow for that type of thinking as you can kinda mix a match or share abilities between paragon paths.
IN the base DnD game, pen and paper and other computer variants, being invisible is always broken on attacking, and never is the rogue the one totally invisible, they go unnoticed or just walk around behind a target and back stab the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of them.
From what I can tell the combo that allows for stealth refills and now tenacity that makes damage less makes rogues invisible and still attack, maybe that attack doesn't kill out right, but now with everyone starting to use bilethorn or whatever poison enchant is out there, i'm seeing a lot of deaths from dots from that flurry, that dots from that enchant stack up a lot and i've been killed with one volley. Some say Bait and Switch needs to just stop refilling the stealth meter and that would in theory solve a lot of these threads complaining about it.
On that final note i'll also point out i'm seeing a lot of people throwing down bait and switch and stand on it or near it even stealthed so if you aoe them yeah you are filling their daily power, odds are you aren't filling up your own nearly as much and thus they are using their daily 2 or 3 times to your one maybe more I honestly can't tell how many dailies I get because my CW pretty much dies if I get a volley of daggers and hit with blood bath or whatever it is that is cutting the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me.
Do I care that a rogue can one shot me with a back stab? NO. If he did it 2 or three times in a row then yes I can see that being problematic. But I don't think it ever worked that way. In an ideal world people should fear rogues when they start getting behind you but right now it seems GWF's fill that role.
My last thought, yes i'd rather fight over powered GWFs' because at least I can hit them and thus build up my own daily power. Fighting one or more perma stealth rogues means if you pop a daily trying to knock them out and they don't then because you can't target them you can't build up another daily. ST has one of my longer CD rates somewhere around 12 seconds I think. Do any of you commenting about these things realize that 12 seconds of getting hit usaully means you have lost more health than you want if not dead, and 12 seconds of not being able to do anything against 2 rogues means death.
I think the key is DPS and not just "burst" from my experience playing a TR they had massive burst potential - the burst is what needed to be fixed not necessarily the DPS. THe issue is they nerfed burst damage and basically forced all TRs into a defensive play rather than just dropping some burst but building DPS elsewhere.
I would love to see more utility abilities/effects on TR encounters and also some DPS boosts but the "perma build" quite honestly just makes pvp not even fun...
Rogue DPS out of stealth HAS to be burst. They don't stay alive long enough for sustained damage.
doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
edited March 2014
How is it people are saying TR have zero cc when they have two abilities I know of as I get him by both of them often that causes stun? yeah you might not be stuck to the floor unable to move but you cant' attack nor activate a power. So the idea that you think they have none is so misguided its scary.
I do agree give some of your abilities to deal damage back, but once you attack and leave stealth you are vulnerable, i'm assuming that is how it used to be, yeah if you got to sneak on someone they probably died but then everyone else jumped all over you and you died.
I also agree that everyone is going to complain about every other class. Which is why I think in an MMO you shouldn't have pvp, or if you do then it needs to have a whole separate aspect to it, as in you eitehr play the game do dungeons, enjoy storyline and the like or you pvp. pvp should have varied builds but essentially all the same and pit skill v skill not gear v gear.
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doriangreighMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 707Arc User
edited March 2014
You probably play a rogue the way its meant ot be played, people that whine over that just are babies, I accept that getting back stabbed by the rogue will kill or at least nearly kill you. Its the non targetable thing that seems to really peeve people and myself. I am not voting to kill their damage, but they can solo dungeons due to this practice which is unfair anyone as they are the only class that can do that.
My thoughts have alwayss been leave how it affects other skills as is, but instead of making them totally invisible it makes them more damage resistant, maybe making their deflect chance higher (although they seem to already have this) or make them mroe damage resistant by giving them say a base % that lowers as the stealth metered is depleted.
mod note: merged a number of perma stealth discussions - please try to find current thread discussions and contribute to those before opening a new thread. it is better for the devs to have all feedback in one thread than scattered all over the place. thanks.
do not reply to this mod note. instead, send us a PM if you'd like to discuss it.
Comments
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Don't know about high GS premade vs. premade, but my playstyle "ambush, burst and vanish in shadows" is quite viable in ~12K GS PUGs. I'm utilizing stealth very much, but not in "perma" style. Although I try to prolong stealth with shadow strike as much as I can or use it as escape option, depending on situation on the battlefield.
Not a chance to fight out of stealth, unless my opponent is already weak and I can risk going ITC and in 5s bring him to the Shocking Execution HP threshold. But no stealth nor ITC means my TR is defensless as a baby and dies in 90% of such 1v1s.
So yeah, TRs are forced to use stealth in PvP. Anyway, when someone with higher skills is in the match, stealth does not mean much since he can counter my stealth by smart usage of powers and predicting my behaviour.
Also killing HRs is very difficult for my build/tactics, and HR + CW is guranteed death for me.
Like the TR would actually stand there within lantern range lol
PVE: make creatures flail about when you're hitting them, or "see" you when you're next to them, like PVP. Right now, most of them just stand there stupidly or deploy a half-hearted encounter power while you're damaging them from stealth. This alone would make soloing epic dungeons much harder.
PVP: give all classes more stealth-busting abilities and/or feats, or augment existing ones with some more anti-stealth mechanisms. This might make the "nerf" more player skill-oriented, and would be an acceptable challenge to perma-stealthers. A player's skill and knowledge of the game would allow them to bust or keep their perma-stealth (which is already true, of course, but may offer more possibilities to a wider group of players) Thoughts?
All classes already have numerous means of busting stealth, and there is no need to make further changes. For those who seem unable to use other skills that have been shown time and time again to be very effective at dealing with permastealth TR's, they can use a lantern artifact.
One thing that has been consistent in all the QQ'ing about permastealth is how very rarely it actually is about permastealth but stealth as a whole. Stealth is the core mechanic for the TR and further weakening it in effect breaks the class.
I don't really understand those who defend this broken play style...a rogue with no stealth ( other then the initial attack..which should be a daze, stun, prone..(rework the skills slightly maybe) is kinda like a GF with no block, no? I mean sure the GF has more defense and HP, but the rogue has way more dps..and God forbid has to rely on his teammates for a change?
just floating ideas's out there...but i do agree..if the perma stealth issue isn't dealt with, Neverwinter pvp will be Rogue's vs Rogues ...
If you really think that's unreasonable then there's probably nothing that will ever satisfy you.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I like permas. They mean that everyone assumes all Rogues are permas with no DPS, and that means I get to surprise a lot of people. Like the GF who thought he could just tank repeated DFs.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
How is changing my skills at the campfire gonna help? Only useless skills like enforced threat are AOE on GF..so i have to slot that at campfire..plz..get real. And as dumb as it sounds..why should i have to, u dont have to slot useless skills to get thorough my shield.. Stealth should drain FAST when u attack...i understand its a class feature, but this would even the playing field more...God forbid rogues have to use strategy and rely on team support to conquer their opponents
Perhaps we should all be able to go invisible and that would make pvp interesting or very very dull as it would feel as if you where alone :P
Anyway thats my solution when the rouge strikes he/she is decloaked.
I was probably being kind
I'll post my build sometime though. Just basic MI/Exe/P.Vorpal. All you do is DF in stealth, use SS to keep up stealth, and finish each flurry with WR. WR in singularity is huge, so make sure you do that!
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
THE FIX FOR STEALTH -
CHANGE the class feature "Sneak Attack" do to what the 4e rules say: Sneak attack makes you deal more damage.
"Once per turn, when a rogue with the Sneak Attack class feature attacks, the attack deals extra damage. The amount of extra damage is determined by the rogue's level"
So why does it give run speed? This is PART of the issue with TRs is NOT that they can attack in stealth but that they can run SO much faster than any class WHILE in stealth... You dont need to nerf stealth, its the class features that need adjusting. If you changed this feature TRs would complain a little less about not dealing enough damage, and less people would complain about the perma TR in PVP running around and not being able to be hit...
The mobility is the key, not the stealth mechanic itself... The perma build works at holding nodes so well and in general so well because the mobility is incredible... Players who spec correctly can get close to mount speeds (not epic obv) IN stealth....
This sounds alot like First Strike, however I think just changing it to make "your encounter powers deal 2/4/6% more damage" would suffice well. This would provide nice incentive to use encounters - since they get the damage boost, rather than stealth refill things like Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch. So basically its the "endless assault" feat but an additional class feature to even further your damage if needed.
ADDITIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS:
- Lashing Blade: Change the "stealth bonus" from "Guaranteed to crit" to "50% reduced CD". Then also change the attack to dealing 50% of its current damage upfront and 50% DOT for 5 seconds(consider that in light of the profound 7.5% buff along with the *NEW* Sneak Attack Feature. This provides more DPS while less burst damage along with the encounter being useful again in PVP and PVE with the reduced CD.
- Smoke Bomb: Change the "stealth bonus" from "now adds a slow affect" to something LIKE "Enemies affected by smoke bomb have 10% less Damage Resist" --- OR --- "Enemies now take damage per second if affected by smoke bomb" This provides more utility to encounters both in pvp and pve. (Imagine Smoke Bomb + POTB for AOE)
- Shadow Strike: Should NOT refill stealth if the strike is dodged. Plain and Simple.
- Impact Shot: Remove the "increased damage based on charges" and just give it TWO charges (still no charges consumed while in stealth). Truth be told, this encounter is messed up because your tooltip damage DROPS if you stealth, meaning the math is messing up somewhere... Fixing this would make it a viable encounter again, where as its not right now.
- Shocking Execution: I really dont think this ability needs much re-work. I think it ignoring DR is cool. I would just like to see the "bonus damage" not kick in until around the 35% HP mark. As this truly is supposed to be an "execute". (FYI, its not posted yet that I know of, but there is a SS/video of a TR doing 149k SE crit just a few days ago).
These changes would give TRs ALOT of viable builds while not actually flat out "nerfing" them. The "Perma" build will be less effective due to the run speed nerf. The "DPS TR" will be more effective due to the new sneak attack along with the changes to lashing/impact/SB.
raise your hand if you would like to see TRs dealing good damage again and not being FORCED to hide 24/7 in stealth or ITC.
I already said in my post that if stealth gets nerfed, in either way that i suggested, that they should get their DPS back. They are meant to be a high single target damage class but as long as the perma build is allowed people are going to be very unhappy.
As for your suggestion on giving TR CC....no. They already have smoke bomb, not only that, every class shouldn't be able to do anything it wants. You don't see a CW healing others or a GWF going into stealth, classes need to be different, balanced, but different.
Which I'm very aware of and probably why i suggest nerfing stealth and giving them back their DPS, no?
"TR should get back the damage boosts it lost due to this stealth system."
Lashing went down, stealth went up. I didn't have it mixed up for one.
Secondly, care to actually help the discussion instead of leaving one snide comment?
I think the key is DPS and not just "burst" from my experience playing a TR they had massive burst potential - the burst is what needed to be fixed not necessarily the DPS. THe issue is they nerfed burst damage and basically forced all TRs into a defensive play rather than just dropping some burst but building DPS elsewhere.
I would love to see more utility abilities/effects on TR encounters and also some DPS boosts but the "perma build" quite honestly just makes pvp not even fun...
I will say again, I personally don't care they can burst or could have, thats probably one area I can agree they probably have been nerfed to death, however I don't' think i've been playing that long so I don't think I have seen them like that. If they went around a battlefield back stabbing everything invisible and killing 1 player ever second then yeah that needed to be fixed, but having to build up a daily to do it or having a somewhat long CD, I don't see what the big deal is/was.
Right now as it stands people say they can be knocked out, well read my posts again or if I didn't mention it in this thread here it is again:
I have hit rogues with lantern (or missed as i never see them and the aoe is small not to mention the time to reveal invis is short). I have hit them with RoE CoI before they have gone invis and they still stealth and they stayed stealthed and those two dots should be doing a fair amount of damage. Maybe the complaint is coming from running against a bunch of overly geared rogues, but the fact remains they are NOT targetable while stealthed just sucks.
To address numerous issues with people saying to AoE here is my 2 cents.
During pvp CoI can only hit someone you can see, the only AoE that can be used is ST and Shard, the latter being stupidly easy to avoid the explosion from a giant ball sitting there. ST i'm told can knock them out of stealth but as of now I cannot confirm nor deny if it still works or just worked prior to pvp gear sets/tenacity. OF I have used many times as it does good damage with a good area, but still i have seen numbers tick from it hitting, but it does NOT knock them out of stealth.
I'm all for a viable TR class, clearly more thought should have went into that classes design. It should have been for lack of a better comparison glass cannon class, it can deal out devastating damage but probably have the survivability of a CW, using stealth to leave combat or dump aggro if generating too much threat.
However some say they shouldn't have cc t hat is the role of CW. I say this in response. First off TR could make an option for a good cc class to make them viable, not all CW control some focus on just dealing damage with ever the slightest hint of control (which basically means they use singularity and or ST pretty exclusively). But not all CW's even do that, I started off just focusing on dealing damage. TR could make a nice variant, have a path that can be control or have a path that can obliterate stuff. Other MMO's i've seen seem to use this concept, where a class can potentially fit two roles. Star Wars being one such example where the light armored class of the jedi consular could actually be a tank through one specialized skill tree, or it could be a healer class through another tree, or straight up dps in another. Point being some or all classes can fill certain roles if they choose that path, but the current class system doesn't really allow for that type of thinking as you can kinda mix a match or share abilities between paragon paths.
IN the base DnD game, pen and paper and other computer variants, being invisible is always broken on attacking, and never is the rogue the one totally invisible, they go unnoticed or just walk around behind a target and back stab the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of them.
From what I can tell the combo that allows for stealth refills and now tenacity that makes damage less makes rogues invisible and still attack, maybe that attack doesn't kill out right, but now with everyone starting to use bilethorn or whatever poison enchant is out there, i'm seeing a lot of deaths from dots from that flurry, that dots from that enchant stack up a lot and i've been killed with one volley. Some say Bait and Switch needs to just stop refilling the stealth meter and that would in theory solve a lot of these threads complaining about it.
On that final note i'll also point out i'm seeing a lot of people throwing down bait and switch and stand on it or near it even stealthed so if you aoe them yeah you are filling their daily power, odds are you aren't filling up your own nearly as much and thus they are using their daily 2 or 3 times to your one maybe more I honestly can't tell how many dailies I get because my CW pretty much dies if I get a volley of daggers and hit with blood bath or whatever it is that is cutting the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me.
Do I care that a rogue can one shot me with a back stab? NO. If he did it 2 or three times in a row then yes I can see that being problematic. But I don't think it ever worked that way. In an ideal world people should fear rogues when they start getting behind you but right now it seems GWF's fill that role.
My last thought, yes i'd rather fight over powered GWFs' because at least I can hit them and thus build up my own daily power. Fighting one or more perma stealth rogues means if you pop a daily trying to knock them out and they don't then because you can't target them you can't build up another daily. ST has one of my longer CD rates somewhere around 12 seconds I think. Do any of you commenting about these things realize that 12 seconds of getting hit usaully means you have lost more health than you want if not dead, and 12 seconds of not being able to do anything against 2 rogues means death.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I do agree give some of your abilities to deal damage back, but once you attack and leave stealth you are vulnerable, i'm assuming that is how it used to be, yeah if you got to sneak on someone they probably died but then everyone else jumped all over you and you died.
I also agree that everyone is going to complain about every other class. Which is why I think in an MMO you shouldn't have pvp, or if you do then it needs to have a whole separate aspect to it, as in you eitehr play the game do dungeons, enjoy storyline and the like or you pvp. pvp should have varied builds but essentially all the same and pit skill v skill not gear v gear.
My thoughts have alwayss been leave how it affects other skills as is, but instead of making them totally invisible it makes them more damage resistant, maybe making their deflect chance higher (although they seem to already have this) or make them mroe damage resistant by giving them say a base % that lowers as the stealth metered is depleted.
TRs have the highest burst DPS in PVP bar none
TRs have a RANGED attack while stealthed.
Also, using an artifact with a 3 minute cooldown just to have the chance to see the TR is plain stupid.
Fail unbalanced class is fail.
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