3: GWF can solo TOS and some other dungeon if they are geared enought
Do you have a link or video of this - I take it you mean the Epic version?
There was a CW who soloed Epic PK, but apart from that and perma-stealth TRs haven't seen any other class do that and ToS is one of the toughest Tier 2s as well.
So first of all i'm main CW, perma tr it's not hard to kill, you just need to know "how to kill",
if u just stay on a same place and wait to get killing by tr is ur own fault.
A Real Perma TR
- got low dps
- this build are only to survive.
- it does not present a danger.
Mostly TR Atack u and hide behind the wall or on the corners!
so do you think they are constantly visible.
it's only a trick!
NOBODY wants to play against people in pvp that cannot be targeted,
- You can attack him even if he is invisible! how? Easy
*you just have to get close enough to him get close then you can target him,you just have to be fast!
*you need to run in the direction of the attack!
I like to fight Perma TRs^
For me are most Dangerous enemies on PvP
1. GWF= High Immunity
2. CW = Iceray+Daily High
3. HR = Endless stamina + High DPS knocks
4.TR = 1-Shot Build DPS
(LashingBlade = fixed already,
it makes less damage than before now)
5.GF = Full knockback
6.DCs = Are FULL TANK,
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
Do you have a link or video of this - I take it you mean the Epic version?
There was a CW who soloed Epic PK, but apart from that and perma-stealth TRs haven't seen any other class do that and ToS is one of the toughest Tier 2s as well.
Sorry, just asked the guy, it was karrundax but no he dont have a video, look around plenty of gwf solo boss fight out there..
And TOS would be impossible thinking about it , due to her regain (for any class that is..)
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
This is beautifull on paper, but praticaly impossible...
1: skipping the mobs dont work in 90% of the time because even if you are stealted, you get agro and cant open doors.
2: Killing a boss solo with a tr will take way to long for it to be giving back enought money to say its worth it.
3: GWF can solo Karru and some other dungeon if they are geared enought
4: alway going to be more effective and faster to 5man a dungeon with high dps pve class.
If you do 0 damage you need to review your tactic, please once again, you keep posting the same argument on all post, but never take time to read people giving you advice to fight a perma..
Perma rogue do have the less dps other than dc in all class. please prove this wrong!
Still in edit
1: not everyone does have a lantern, and thats why there is plenty of other counter for it, not gonna name em AGAIN, find some in threads. Most of them will include spending money or playing with load-out, if you dont want to do that, then you dont want to kill a perma...
2 - Yea you have to know where the perma is, thats actualy the point of a perma... And again yes, you need to switch maby 1 encounter, not a big deal..just like any battle in life, gotta ajust.
3 - no one ask to ignore them
Section 1
1 - No it isn't impossible, people have DONE it.
2 - Doesn't matter if it "takes too long" or not, the issue is you can perma, and solo a boss. NO CLASS or build should be able to solo content made for FIVE PEOPLE
3 - You're deflecting for one. Not only that, it's one other class that could solo one dungeon IF he is so far ahead that the content is nothing but a farm, and not an actual challenge.
4 - 5 people are more efficient than 1...you don't say.
5 - You didn't even prove how the TR is at all useless in PvE at all.
Section 2
You do 0 damage to an invisible unit...this isn't an opinion or anything to do with my aactics, it is a FACT. Read what i said
"If you can not find the perma, they will deal damage to you and you will be dealing zero back. Zero."
Instead of my trying to "prove how a invisible hero" deals more damage than a visible hero that can't see him, how about you actually show a constructive argument against me?
Again, you counter none of my points other than use snide remarks.
Section 3
1 - First off, you are making assumptions that again has Nothing to do with what i said.
let's do a little example on why the lantern is complete <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> vs a perma.
You use the lantern (if you have it), you see the TR, you kill him. Problem solved right? Oh wait, he re-spawns and you have up to 2mins and 40 secs till you can use it again. Well that was worth it.
2 - Having 1/3 encounters catered to just fight 1 out of 5 players is not at all effective, and again, you miss my entire point. You can not counter a perma with AoE if you do not know where they are.
3 - Yes actually they do, a lot of the time. Just because you don't doesn't mean others never say it.
If you're oging to reply to me, actually counter what i say and have a discussion, or don't even bother.
I find it pretty hilarious how many people seriously think a TR is useless in PvE. You are aware that a perma can solo any boss in the game (Except Valindra i believe) and can skip the entire mob army with their stealth. A TR can actually solo the entire dungeon themselves, this is far, FAR from "useless in PvE". stop spreading false information and trying to hide behind lies, TR is not useless in PvE, at all, in any shape or form if they go perma.
Next is the issue of "perma doesn't deal much damage"....again, you must be kidding me. A perma may not do as much as a non perma TR, but they will do a lot of damage still, and in the mean time, you will be dealing a grand total of Zero towards them until you "find them". You can say they deal low damage all you want, but remember that every attack you make in stealth the odds are, unless your opponent sees you, that they will be dealing 0 damage to you. Zero.
Then is the issue of the so called "counters". AoEs, ignoring them, or using the lantern.
1 - Not everybody owns the lantern. If you do own it, your artifact slot is now only useful vs 1 out of 5 players. Not to mention it has a whooping 3 minute CD.
2 - You have to know where the perma is to even use an AoE, and you are now wasting a slot vs every other person on their team, and just to make it better, you still might miss.
3 - Ignoring them will not make them magically vanish or be useless, they can then just cap any node they want, whenever they want, and you can't do much to stop that. They will also continuously attack your team. Good luck ignoring that.
The funny thing in the end is, everyone that isn't a perma, hates the style. Hates it. This includes a lot of TRs, why you may ask, because it stops them from doing anything other than perma.
How does a TR soloing a dungeon show they are useful in PVE? The TR soloing that dungeon is probably going to take more than 5 times as long as the 2GWF/2CW/DC team, and have a much more boring time doing it. Sounds less useful to me.
To counter your PVP points,
1) the lantern also increases damage by 10% on enemies. Are you suggesting that the lantern would be useless if TRs didn't have stealth?
2) If the perma hits you, you know where he is, and he's wasting all his slots to stay in perma stealth, so asking that you use one slot to counter him isn't asking too much. It only takes 10 seconds to swap out your encounters, so there's no reason why you shouldn't build yourself to counter your opponent.
3) Don't ignore him. If you're not able to use any of the suggestions made by the many TRs on how to get a rogue out of stealth, just send a tanky character to 1v1 him. It'll take him long enough to take out a GF/GWF/DC that whatever points he gets while they are dead will be negligible. Addtionally, the TR has to stay mobile, so he'll be forced off point every now and then, allowing your 1 player to cap it as long as he stays on point.
I play both a TR, and a CW, so I've seen both sides of the coin. Perma stealth rogues don't seem nearly as scary when you know how hard he has to work to keep his stealth up while still attacking you. Everytime he gets near you he risks getting hit, and getting hit with one dot could wreck his rotation for the next 20 seconds. A rogue out of stealth is extremely easy to kill.
That being said, perma stealth rogues are extremely annoying for both sides of the fight. The rogue doesn't like being forced to whittle your health down ever so slowly, and the person fighting him doesn't like having to be constantly alert for any sign of an attack. I'd like a change to how stealth mechanics work, and possibly an increase in defense/damage outside of stealth.
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How does a TR soloing a dungeon show they are useful in PVE? The TR soloing that dungeon is probably going to take more than 5 times as long as the 2GWF/2CW/DC team, and have a much more boring time doing it. Sounds less useful to me.
Please tell me you realize how you contradicted yourself? If a class can solo the entire thing themselves, it's just pure benefit having more players to help. You can not compare a 1 man to a 5 man in terms of speed, that makes no sense. The issue is that a Perma can solo it all, by themselves. Show me any other class that can do that?
A TR isn't useless in PvE, especially not a perma one. TR are meant for fighting bosses and larger HP mobs, they do wonders in MC (If you don't skip) against the mobs with larger Hp and the bosses and mini bosses within that dungeon for example.
To counter your PVP points,
1) the lantern also increases damage by 10% on enemies. Are you suggesting that the lantern would be useless if TRs didn't have stealth?
2) If the perma hits you, you know where he is, and he's wasting all his slots to stay in perma stealth, so asking that you use one slot to counter him isn't asking too much. It only takes 10 seconds to swap out your encounters, so there's no reason why you shouldn't build yourself to counter your opponent.
3) Don't ignore him. If you're not able to use any of the suggestions made by the many TRs on how to get a rogue out of stealth, just send a tanky character to 1v1 him. It'll take him long enough to take out a GF/GWF/DC that whatever points he gets while they are dead will be negligible. Addtionally, the TR has to stay mobile, so he'll be forced off point every now and then, allowing your 1 player to cap it as long as he stays on point.
1 - The issue is that it only works once every 3 minutes, which i stated in my previous post. Perma comes, you use lantern, and now you have to wait 3 minutes to be able to even use it to counter again. In addition, you have to not have used your artifact already so that you may change it to a lantern (if it isn't already equipped) and you are now limiting the artifact slot to one artifact to counter 1 player out of 5. Not to mention yet again, not everyone even has it to begin with, so now you are forced to either restart to get it for free, pay cash, or grind for hours and hope you either get one or buy it after you have amasses a good deal of AD which isn't always possible to do within a short amount of time, or for the average player.
2 - Again, not always true, they do have ranged attacks, use poisons among other things. They can also just dodge out of any AoE or attack if you do see them. A perma isn't stupid enough to sit there and let you hit him, i've played with, as, and against TRs.
3 - Again, that doesn't make sense. You can't say that any points he gains from it are negligible. He gained points, you both had 1 person on each team busy with that fight, so they're still 4 on each team fighting. You didn't get ahead, they did.
I play both a TR, and a CW, so I've seen both sides of the coin. Perma stealth rogues don't seem nearly as scary when you know how hard he has to work to keep his stealth up while still attacking you. Everytime he gets near you he risks getting hit, and getting hit with one dot could wreck his rotation for the next 20 seconds. A rogue out of stealth is extremely easy to kill.
That being said, perma stealth rogues are extremely annoying for both sides of the fight. The rogue doesn't like being forced to whittle your health down ever so slowly, and the person fighting him doesn't like having to be constantly alert for any sign of an attack. I'd like a change to how stealth mechanics work, and possibly an increase in defense/damage outside of stealth.[/QUOTE]
Do tell me how you "know" I've never played as a TR, or what classes i even play? Perma stealth is a mechanic in which makes the entire class extremely limited. Due to permas, outside of that build, the TR is a very weak. A class shouldn't be forced to play one single way. Furthermore, the entire concept is extremely un-interactive, and there's a major reason that many many games don't let you hide forever, stealth breaks for a reason.
1 - No it isn't impossible, people have DONE it.
2 - Doesn't matter if it "takes too long" or not, the issue is you can perma, and solo a boss. NO CLASS or build should be able to solo content made for FIVE PEOPLE
3 - You're deflecting for one. Not only that, it's one other class that could solo one dungeon IF he is so far ahead that the content is nothing but a farm, and not an actual challenge.
4 - 5 people are more efficient than 1...you don't say.
5 - You didn't even prove how the TR is at all useless in PvE at all.
Section 2
You do 0 damage to an invisible unit...this isn't an opinion or anything to do with my aactics, it is a FACT. Read what i said
"If you can not find the perma, they will deal damage to you and you will be dealing zero back. Zero."
Instead of my trying to "prove how a invisible hero" deals more damage than a visible hero that can't see him, how about you actually show a constructive argument against me?
Again, you counter none of my points other than use snide remarks.
Section 3
1 - First off, you are making assumptions that again has Nothing to do with what i said.
let's do a little example on why the lantern is complete <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> vs a perma.
You use the lantern (if you have it), you see the TR, you kill him. Problem solved right? Oh wait, he re-spawns and you have up to 2mins and 40 secs till you can use it again. Well that was worth it.
2 - Having 1/3 encounters catered to just fight 1 out of 5 players is not at all effective, and again, you miss my entire point. You can not counter a perma with AoE if you do not know where they are.
3 - Yes actually they do, a lot of the time. Just because you don't doesn't mean others never say it.
If you're oging to reply to me, actually counter what i say and have a discussion, or don't even bother.
Section 1
1: did i say imposible? No i did not. Its just most unlikely since there is door everywhere and again, cant open door when on combat and stealth does not mean 'not in combat'
3:So are you telling me that it is normal to have a gwf solo a dungeon that is meant for 5 PLAYER?
5: I actualy state that, being able to 1man a dungeon in 3 hours does not make a tr usefull in pve, you're not making any point to say that they are either.
They do burst damage in a boss fight, dont help a party when 90% of the dungeon time is out of boss fight... It make them useless. Need a proof? Did you ever saw someone asking for a TR for a dungeon group? Not since march 2013 when they were actualy good a something before all those post about nerfing tr like this one...
Tr ARE useless in pve because it is useless in a group, unwanted and refused in most of the time. Prove me wrong...
Section 2:
You dont counter anything either, can you please prove wrong that perma are the less dps class possible other than DC ?
Even gf does more damage than a perma unless specificly spect for defense only...
My point there is actualy THAT YOU CAN find a tr, just use one of the 100 different ways....
Section 3:
1: Again, and again, and again, lantern is but 1 of multiple way to reveal/find a tr.
2: You can find a perma, thats the whole point.... Search for them, dont wait for them to appear in your face.. Its just like saying you cant counter the fact that a gwf is in unstopable mode, no one should have imunity to cc... Well yea tr are stealthed THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ROGUE.....
I am replying to you, i actualy alway counter what you say but you answer by a : ''same sentece as before, you didnt counter me'' Id like to have a discussion with you but that wont happen because you don't want to have one....
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
i'm gonna classify permas as 2 types: those with bile and those without bile
permas without bile i can actually kill even on my cleric. these are normal and are probably what people refer to as low dps rogues.
permas with bile can nuke half my hp with 8 daggers and quickly finish me off regardless of whether i am a cleric or a rogue. the dps from bile is pure ridiculous considering how fast rogues can attack. these permas may even have malabog set which gives even more poison damage every 15 sec i think
Section 1
1: did i say imposible? No i did not. Its just most unlikely since there is door everywhere and again, cant open door when on combat and stealth does not mean 'not in combat'
3:So are you telling me that it is normal to have a gwf solo a dungeon that is meant for 5 PLAYER?
5: I actualy state that, being able to 1man a dungeon in 3 hours does not make a tr usefull in pve, you're not making any point to say that they are either.
They do burst damage in a boss fight, dont help a party when 90% of the dungeon time is out of boss fight... It make them useless. Need a proof? Did you ever saw someone asking for a TR for a dungeon group? Not since march 2013 when they were actualy good a something before all those post about nerfing tr like this one...
Tr ARE useless in pve because it is useless in a group, unwanted and refused in most of the time. Prove me wrong...
1 - I've heard of permas soloing everything but Vals tower, and i can't think of too many places that have a door in difficult spots. It would depend upon what was by the door, but i know it is possible.
3 - No it isn't but at the same time i can't discuss it due to the fact it would be going off topic. In short no class should be able to solo content, but it isn't an excuse to let a perma solo just because another class can. GWf has different issues than TR, and so does a CW. For example, the issue with CWs is that you can take 3 and walk through just about any dungeon with little to no problems.
5 - Except they are useful for killing both bosses and mobs with a large amount of HP, such as i state in one of my earlier posts. The issue is that most PvE content right now is mob spam after mob spam, the only real exception being MC since it uses alot of larger Hp mobs, and has a few mini bosses, such as the rival heroes.
At the same time, i don't think there's much point arguing over PvE for two reasons on this topic.
1 - People hate permas due to PvP, not PvE
2 - Cw can make any PvE content pretty easy without much effort.
Section 2:
You dont counter anything either, can you please prove wrong that perma are the less dps class possible other than DC ?
Even gf does more damage than a perma unless specificly spect for defense only...
My point there is actualy THAT YOU CAN find a tr, just use one of the 100 different ways....
Bilethorn gives them a huge DPS bonus from what i recall, as does the set bonus from MC.
The only other way i recall being stated (other than those i have argued) about fighting a perma is to turn off your music and try to hear a perma attack you, which really isn't enjoyable for anybody.
Section 3:
1: Again, and again, and again, lantern is but 1 of multiple way to reveal/find a tr.
2: You can find a perma, thats the whole point.... Search for them, dont wait for them to appear in your face.. Its just like saying you cant counter the fact that a gwf is in unstopable mode, no one should have imunity to cc... Well yea tr are stealthed THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ROGUE.....
I am replying to you, i actualy alway counter what you say but you answer by a : ''same sentece as before, you didnt counter me'' Id like to have a discussion with you but that wont happen because you don't want to have one....
1 - I know it is one way, im saying why it is a horrible way to counter, it has a massive CD.
2 - I never said it was impossible to find them, i'm saying how uneffective it can be, and how in the end you end up spending too much of your power trying to counter just one class. The other issue is that the stealth is an extremely un-interactive and "unfun" mechanic (to some/many people). The same can be said about unstopable actually, the only way to counter it is to ignore it, which makes the entire ability pointless and did nothing but waste both players time.
The issue i have is that you don't seem to be understanding why i say what i say, if i need to be clearer then tell me.
Too much effort to counter 1 class. What do you think of GWFs being able to 1vs3 then?
I have to change my skills depending on who I am fighting, ig I'm fighting a perma stealth I use Path of the blade, if I¡m fighting a mage I use the teleporting ability (forgot the name). We all have to change our skills depending on who we are fighting.
Too much effort to counter 1 class. What do you think of GWFs being able to 1vs3 then?
I have to change my skills depending on who I am fighting, ig I'm fighting a perma stealth I use Path of the blade, if I¡m fighting a mage I use the teleporting ability (forgot the name). We all have to change our skills depending on who we are fighting.
Except a GWF can't 1v3 anymore, not from what i've seen post patch. They're not nearly as bad as before, least in my experience.
I also have doubts on if you continuously have to switch skills within the match to counter all the other classes, there's always some kind of synergy within your abilities you can use to do decently well vs most players.
The issue more so with permas is how the build (doesn't) interact with others. That is the major complaint by many.
1 - I've heard of permas soloing everything but Vals tower, and i can't think of too many places that have a door in difficult spots. It would depend upon what was by the door, but i know it is possible.
Like you said, this is a little of topic since its about pvp, not pve... But no a tr cant solo TOS for exemple because of the boss witch have too much life regain..
I heard of soloing pk and thats about it, i don't see why you would solo anything but pk anyway as it is useless...
Except they are useful for killing both bosses and mobs with a large amount of HP, such as i state in one of my earlier posts. The issue is that most PvE content right now is mob spam after mob spam, the only real exception being MC since it uses alot of larger Hp mobs, and has a few mini bosses, such as the rival heroes.
Yea, right now all is about 50000 adds and 1 boss, what make tr useless in pvp exactly. Hopefully this will change soon enought..
Bilethorn gives them a huge DPS bonus from what i recall, as does the set bonus from MC.
The only other way i recall being stated (other than those i have argued) about fighting a perma is to turn off your music and try to hear a perma attack you, which really isn't enjoyable for anybody.
Well, bilethorn is good i give it to you, but then its not different from any other damage based weapon enchantment...
No one should have MC set as we are talking about pvp and tenacity make a huge difference in pvp ...
There is much more other way, yea listening to the sound with headset is one but not given to everyone, not everyone have surround sound. There is plenty way to fight them
You probably missed lot of my post 2-3 page earlier, i would suggest taking 5 minute and reading them as i put in some hits on fighting a rogue
Unfortunately some of them mean changing some encouter or spending money on enchant and such but it is the only way to make a tr just plain useless in pvp againts you .
2 - I never said it was impossible to find them, i'm saying how uneffective it can be, and how in the end you end up spending too much of your power trying to counter just one class. The other issue is that the stealth is an extremely un-interactive and "unfun" mechanic (to some/many people). The same can be said about unstopable actually, the only way to counter it is to ignore it, which makes the entire ability pointless and did nothing but waste both players time.
The issue i have is that you don't seem to be understanding why i say what i say, if i need to be clearer then tell me.
It is perfectly clear, but you're not bringing any solution to the issue and ''removing perma stealth'' is just a bad solution. Because its only a downside to a class already let down behind...
I agree its anoying, and for any perma stealth also. The thing is TR are way too squishy (even with the new patch) to be viable in 5v5 fight, they have to stay back alone or else they just get burn to the ground
The reason is they do have a good burst when not perma stealth and as soon as you get out of stealth you become the main target of any cc and you die basicly....
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
BTW I don't continuously change skills all the time, I have a general set up that works for many fights and classes, but I do know that I have to change them occasionally to fight against specially annoying enemies, like a good mage that keeps CCing me or a stealthed rogue.
It is perfectly clear, but you're not bringing any solution to the issue and ''removing perma stealth'' is just a bad solution. Because its only a downside to a class already let down behind...
I agree its anoying, and for any perma stealth also. The thing is TR are way too squishy (even with the new patch) to be viable in 5v5 fight, they have to stay back alone or else they just get burn to the ground
The reason is they do have a good burst when not perma stealth and as soon as you get out of stealth you become the main target of any cc and you die basicly....
The best solution i would have would be to remove perma stealth by either
A - Decreasing the ability to stay in stealth for long periods of time
B - Make stealth break once you attack
To balance it out, the TR should get back the damage boosts it lost due to this stealth system (I believe lashing and a few other powers were nerfed due to the increase in stealth for example)
The TR in my mind should be a high single damage single target class with utility abilities to get it in and out of combat, as well as manipulate an opponent 1 on 1 (Stuns, teleports, smoke bombs etc). The main reason the TR even got so many nerfs and debuffs to me, is to compensate for the fact people were using permas, and nerfed the class as a whole instead of solving the issue of why people thought/think TR is "OP".
Stealth for a TR should be used to both escape combat and give them the first strike, im not saying remove stealth, im saying remove the ability to be in stealth "forever".
do permas even need tenacity since the whole premise of how they fight is against taking damage
Perma need the pvp set as its the best bonus (30% stealth meter bonus and 7.5% bonus damage) if dont have this = not perma
Tenacity = defense and cc resist, if we can get some defense, well take it
they obviously dont want to have too much CC on them, they want to be out of this cc as soon as possible.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
The main reason the TR even got so many nerfs and debuffs to me, is to compensate for the fact people were using permas, and nerfed the class as a whole instead of solving the issue of why people thought/think TR is "OP".
Hi. The main reason the TR got nerfed was because we dealt immense single target damage, not because of stealth builds. Permastealth and every high Stealth builds people see nowadays are a reaction to the nerfs we received. We have been gimped to the point where not playing with a Stealth build will not allow us to survive in this CC-heavy meta, where the goal of PVP is to somehow prevent your opponents from reacting from your attacks while you nuke them to spawn. This is what PVP is. TR's have ZERO CC's, with DPS getting gimped further and further after each balance patch, further promoting TR's to play with Stealth builds.
If people think it's not fun to play against a class that counters the CC meta everyone else are currently promoting, it's also not fun to play PVP against players who think chain CC's to death are fun. Nerf Stealth, but give us the same tools as everyone else; which is CC.
1. Lashing Blade: 50% more damage from Stealth. Prone the target.
2. Deft Strike: Root the target when used from Stealth.
3. Dazing Strike: 50% less activation time from Stealth. Reduce cooldown by 50% from Stealth.
4. Blitz: Increase damage.
5. Path of the Blades: Increase the damage, allow it to crit, allow it to proc weapon enchantment effects.
6. Wicked Reminder: Increase the damage based on the number of Wicked Reminder debuff stacks.
7. Shadow Strike: Refill Stealth, pull target towards you.
8. Impact Shot: Increase damage when used from Stealth. Remove the DPS nerf based on charges.
9. Bait and Switch: Make it explode or something. We're Rogues but we no has explodes.
10. And more.
Yes. Basically, rework the entire class. As it is right now, if Stealth gets reworked while majority of our skills and feats stay as they are, our overall efficiency for PVP will go down with it. Give us back our original abilities, Sneak Attack dealing 25% more damage from Stealth, Lurker's Assault dealing 60% more damage, Lashing Blade dealing 50% damage when used from Stealth, Deft Strike being an At-Will etc. A lot of things have been taken from us to sate the complaints of other classes. But we all know the amount of complaints really will not change because people will always have different self-serving opinions of what other classes should do while refusing to understand what it is that they were designed for.
The best solution i would have would be to remove perma stealth by either
A - Decreasing the ability to stay in stealth for long periods of time
B - Make stealth break once you attack
To balance it out, the TR should get back the damage boosts it lost due to this stealth system (I believe lashing and a few other powers were nerfed due to the increase in stealth for example)
The TR in my mind should be a high single damage single target class with utility abilities to get it in and out of combat, as well as manipulate an opponent 1 on 1 (Stuns, teleports, smoke bombs etc). The main reason the TR even got so many nerfs and debuffs to me, is to compensate for the fact people were using permas, and nerfed the class as a whole instead of solving the issue of why people thought/think TR is "OP".
Stealth for a TR should be used to both escape combat and give them the first strike, im not saying remove stealth, im saying remove the ability to be in stealth "forever".
Lashing wasn't nerfed because of perma, perma became popular because of nerfs. Your timeline is all wrong.
We have been gimped to the point where not playing with a Stealth build will not allow us to survive in this CC-heavy meta, where the goal of PVP is to somehow prevent your opponents from reacting from your attacks while you nuke them to spawn.
Well what about CWs? More fragile than TRs, CC capabilites are nerfed due to tenacity, except we don't have stealth to rely on.
If you are talking PVE, then you have some points but as far as PVP is concerned, no one other than biased TRs will shed a tear if permastealth builds get nerfed again.
Well what about CWs? More fragile than TRs, CC capabilites are nerfed due to tenacity, except we don't have stealth to rely on.
If you are talking PVE, then you have some points but as far as PVP is concerned, no one other than biased TRs will shed a tear if permastealth builds get nerfed again.
I don't have a capped tr, and I will be upset if they destroy stealth, because having rogues in the game at that point will be like keeping a quadruple amputee dog alive who howls in pain 24/7 rather than putting it down, you nerf rogues anymore and you might as well just delete the class.
Well what about CWs? More fragile than TRs, CC capabilites are nerfed due to tenacity, except we don't have stealth to rely on.
If you are talking PVE, then you have some points but as far as PVP is concerned, no one other than biased TRs will shed a tear if permastealth builds get nerfed again.
What, CW's? You mean the class that can bring the most CC's in a match and still nuke people to spawn in the process of chain CC-ing them to death? Do you know what you're saying? With your WIS bonus + Orb of Imposition you can negate the CC resistance of other players and only CW's can do that. Not to mention you are the only class in PVP that has a bonus to how much you can pierce the CC resistance of other players. What you said is not even a proper argument.
But this is about TR's. Please take your thread-derailing concerns somewhere else.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
I mean, seriously? This thread again. My suggestions:
1) quit whining
2) Learn to play
3) Repeat 1 & 2
and honestly, the reason everyone plays PS TR now is that everything that was good about TR has been nerfed so hard that the class is a shadow of its former self. Their DPS has been nerfed so hard PvE as to make them somewhat irrelivent. When TR clear CN, it's not because they carried the team, it's because the team carried them.
TR was my first and they are so sad. I mean, i can expend twice the effort, work twice as hard, and do 50% damage and 25% CC of any half decent CW.
Why? because people whine and complain on the forums about PvP. You didn't lose because PS TR are overpowered, it's because you need to learn to counter them.
The ability for rogues to perma stealth needs to be taken away and replaced with better options. Not because the build is OP, It's not. One melee foxes cunning burst and 95% of the rogues I hit explode in a shower of glorious red death. The reasons it needs to go away is because it's not fun for anyone. Not to play against nor to play with. I hate em on my team I think they're about Fin worthless. It's a troll build, nothing more nothing less. Stealth needs to stay an integral part for a rogue but once they initiate combat, they come out of stealth. They have a nasty opener from stealth, it should bloody well hurt, much like an old school back stab. They should also have an execute ability that again....bloody well well hurts a target beneath say..30% health. They should have more attacks that bleed and cripple and slow. You know some trademark rogue abilities. The rogue SHOULD be the anti GWF class. It should be it's counter, but they nerfed the rogues damage into the dirt leaving only perma stealth as an option. This is cryptics fault entirely. The class needs a major rework at this point.
A complete rework would be the best way, but will most likely not happen because would make too much people QQ that they have to rework their stats/enchant/gears etc around the new build...
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
I am a TR and i definitly agrer with this thread, BUT this is not rrsolved by gimping the class further, only 1 thing ia needed to make permas undoable, or very difficult: remove the abikity for bait and switch to refill stealth. Thats it, nothing else, that would turn those boring *** perma stealthers out of their misery!
And dont tell me its the only viable option for TR, i play a NORMAL tr using LS, ITC and IS, yes, IS and i top the charts very often and am able to do much more than survive in pvp havig only 700 tenacity and 12k gs, every1 just needs to stop complaining and learning to play your class! Only permas r ridiculous, that i have to agree.
(please ignore any errors, it was written from a phone)
And dont tell me its the only viable option for TR, i play a NORMAL tr using LS, ITC and IS, yes, IS and i top the charts very often and am able to do much more than survive in pvp havig only 700 tenacity and 12k gs, every1 just needs to stop complaining and learning to play your class! Only permas r ridiculous, that i have to agree.
It's not the only viable option, but it is the optimal one.
And permas aren't ridiculous unless you have a high GS mismatch. My Combat HR eats equal-GS and/or inexperienced permas for breakfast. My Renegade CW does pretty well against them also - granted I have to switch up my encounters to do so.
Personally a change to allow a longer base stealth but no refill would be fine with me. Eliminates permastealth and allows more tactical use of stealth which the current short duration limits.
There isn't that much real perma-stealth tr now in pvp. As soon as a tr is going to stealth and manage to run away before he can be seen, people call him a perm... I've been called a perma tr so many times when i'm a smoke bomb user by the people who i assume aren't pvpers...
I don't know if Devs even read this forum, but here are some thoughts about "nerfing" TRs.
1. TRs damage must be restored. As it was before pvp patch at least.
2. Powers and feats which restore stealth meter must linger invisibility instead.
I say TRs must 1shot people. But after that they must be exposed and dead. It's fair.
Even if someone will still be able to keep invisiblity all the time they wont do anything except knife throwing. And if rogue exposes with combat encounter or SE he couldn't recharge his stealth meter fast to get to shadows again.
Let TRs feel invisible death instead of invisible rats
Comments
Do you have a link or video of this - I take it you mean the Epic version?
There was a CW who soloed Epic PK, but apart from that and perma-stealth TRs haven't seen any other class do that and ToS is one of the toughest Tier 2s as well.
perma tr it's not hard to kill, you just need to know "how to kill",
if u just stay on a same place and wait to get killing by tr is ur own fault.
A Real Perma TR
- got low dps
- this build are only to survive.
- it does not present a danger.
Mostly TR Atack u and hide behind the wall or on the corners!
so do you think they are constantly visible.
it's only a trick!
- You can attack him even if he is invisible! how? Easy
*you just have to get close enough to him get close then you can target him,you just have to be fast!
*you need to run in the direction of the attack!
I like to fight Perma TRs^
For me are most Dangerous enemies on PvP
1. GWF= High Immunity
2. CW = Iceray+Daily High
3. HR = Endless stamina + High DPS knocks
4.TR = 1-Shot Build DPS
(LashingBlade = fixed already,
it makes less damage than before now)
5.GF = Full knockback
6.DCs = Are FULL TANK,
Sorry, just asked the guy, it was karrundax but no he dont have a video, look around plenty of gwf solo boss fight out there..
And TOS would be impossible thinking about it , due to her regain (for any class that is..)
Section 1
1 - No it isn't impossible, people have DONE it.
2 - Doesn't matter if it "takes too long" or not, the issue is you can perma, and solo a boss. NO CLASS or build should be able to solo content made for FIVE PEOPLE
3 - You're deflecting for one. Not only that, it's one other class that could solo one dungeon IF he is so far ahead that the content is nothing but a farm, and not an actual challenge.
4 - 5 people are more efficient than 1...you don't say.
5 - You didn't even prove how the TR is at all useless in PvE at all.
Section 2
You do 0 damage to an invisible unit...this isn't an opinion or anything to do with my aactics, it is a FACT. Read what i said
"If you can not find the perma, they will deal damage to you and you will be dealing zero back. Zero."
Instead of my trying to "prove how a invisible hero" deals more damage than a visible hero that can't see him, how about you actually show a constructive argument against me?
Again, you counter none of my points other than use snide remarks.
Section 3
1 - First off, you are making assumptions that again has Nothing to do with what i said.
let's do a little example on why the lantern is complete <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> vs a perma.
You use the lantern (if you have it), you see the TR, you kill him. Problem solved right? Oh wait, he re-spawns and you have up to 2mins and 40 secs till you can use it again. Well that was worth it.
2 - Having 1/3 encounters catered to just fight 1 out of 5 players is not at all effective, and again, you miss my entire point. You can not counter a perma with AoE if you do not know where they are.
3 - Yes actually they do, a lot of the time. Just because you don't doesn't mean others never say it.
If you're oging to reply to me, actually counter what i say and have a discussion, or don't even bother.
How does a TR soloing a dungeon show they are useful in PVE? The TR soloing that dungeon is probably going to take more than 5 times as long as the 2GWF/2CW/DC team, and have a much more boring time doing it. Sounds less useful to me.
To counter your PVP points,
1) the lantern also increases damage by 10% on enemies. Are you suggesting that the lantern would be useless if TRs didn't have stealth?
2) If the perma hits you, you know where he is, and he's wasting all his slots to stay in perma stealth, so asking that you use one slot to counter him isn't asking too much. It only takes 10 seconds to swap out your encounters, so there's no reason why you shouldn't build yourself to counter your opponent.
3) Don't ignore him. If you're not able to use any of the suggestions made by the many TRs on how to get a rogue out of stealth, just send a tanky character to 1v1 him. It'll take him long enough to take out a GF/GWF/DC that whatever points he gets while they are dead will be negligible. Addtionally, the TR has to stay mobile, so he'll be forced off point every now and then, allowing your 1 player to cap it as long as he stays on point.
I play both a TR, and a CW, so I've seen both sides of the coin. Perma stealth rogues don't seem nearly as scary when you know how hard he has to work to keep his stealth up while still attacking you. Everytime he gets near you he risks getting hit, and getting hit with one dot could wreck his rotation for the next 20 seconds. A rogue out of stealth is extremely easy to kill.
That being said, perma stealth rogues are extremely annoying for both sides of the fight. The rogue doesn't like being forced to whittle your health down ever so slowly, and the person fighting him doesn't like having to be constantly alert for any sign of an attack. I'd like a change to how stealth mechanics work, and possibly an increase in defense/damage outside of stealth.
so please, have discussions, not arguments and flame wars.
thanks!
do not reply to this moderation note. if you'd like to discuss it, moderation or the rules in general, please send any one of the community team a PM.
Please tell me you realize how you contradicted yourself? If a class can solo the entire thing themselves, it's just pure benefit having more players to help. You can not compare a 1 man to a 5 man in terms of speed, that makes no sense. The issue is that a Perma can solo it all, by themselves. Show me any other class that can do that?
A TR isn't useless in PvE, especially not a perma one. TR are meant for fighting bosses and larger HP mobs, they do wonders in MC (If you don't skip) against the mobs with larger Hp and the bosses and mini bosses within that dungeon for example.
1 - The issue is that it only works once every 3 minutes, which i stated in my previous post. Perma comes, you use lantern, and now you have to wait 3 minutes to be able to even use it to counter again. In addition, you have to not have used your artifact already so that you may change it to a lantern (if it isn't already equipped) and you are now limiting the artifact slot to one artifact to counter 1 player out of 5. Not to mention yet again, not everyone even has it to begin with, so now you are forced to either restart to get it for free, pay cash, or grind for hours and hope you either get one or buy it after you have amasses a good deal of AD which isn't always possible to do within a short amount of time, or for the average player.
2 - Again, not always true, they do have ranged attacks, use poisons among other things. They can also just dodge out of any AoE or attack if you do see them. A perma isn't stupid enough to sit there and let you hit him, i've played with, as, and against TRs.
3 - Again, that doesn't make sense. You can't say that any points he gains from it are negligible. He gained points, you both had 1 person on each team busy with that fight, so they're still 4 on each team fighting. You didn't get ahead, they did.
That being said, perma stealth rogues are extremely annoying for both sides of the fight. The rogue doesn't like being forced to whittle your health down ever so slowly, and the person fighting him doesn't like having to be constantly alert for any sign of an attack. I'd like a change to how stealth mechanics work, and possibly an increase in defense/damage outside of stealth.[/QUOTE]
Do tell me how you "know" I've never played as a TR, or what classes i even play? Perma stealth is a mechanic in which makes the entire class extremely limited. Due to permas, outside of that build, the TR is a very weak. A class shouldn't be forced to play one single way. Furthermore, the entire concept is extremely un-interactive, and there's a major reason that many many games don't let you hide forever, stealth breaks for a reason.
Section 1
1: did i say imposible? No i did not. Its just most unlikely since there is door everywhere and again, cant open door when on combat and stealth does not mean 'not in combat'
3:So are you telling me that it is normal to have a gwf solo a dungeon that is meant for 5 PLAYER?
5: I actualy state that, being able to 1man a dungeon in 3 hours does not make a tr usefull in pve, you're not making any point to say that they are either.
They do burst damage in a boss fight, dont help a party when 90% of the dungeon time is out of boss fight... It make them useless. Need a proof? Did you ever saw someone asking for a TR for a dungeon group? Not since march 2013 when they were actualy good a something before all those post about nerfing tr like this one...
Tr ARE useless in pve because it is useless in a group, unwanted and refused in most of the time. Prove me wrong...
Section 2:
You dont counter anything either, can you please prove wrong that perma are the less dps class possible other than DC ?
Even gf does more damage than a perma unless specificly spect for defense only...
My point there is actualy THAT YOU CAN find a tr, just use one of the 100 different ways....
Section 3:
1: Again, and again, and again, lantern is but 1 of multiple way to reveal/find a tr.
2: You can find a perma, thats the whole point.... Search for them, dont wait for them to appear in your face.. Its just like saying you cant counter the fact that a gwf is in unstopable mode, no one should have imunity to cc... Well yea tr are stealthed THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ROGUE.....
I am replying to you, i actualy alway counter what you say but you answer by a : ''same sentece as before, you didnt counter me'' Id like to have a discussion with you but that wont happen because you don't want to have one....
permas without bile i can actually kill even on my cleric. these are normal and are probably what people refer to as low dps rogues.
permas with bile can nuke half my hp with 8 daggers and quickly finish me off regardless of whether i am a cleric or a rogue. the dps from bile is pure ridiculous considering how fast rogues can attack. these permas may even have malabog set which gives even more poison damage every 15 sec i think
1 - I've heard of permas soloing everything but Vals tower, and i can't think of too many places that have a door in difficult spots. It would depend upon what was by the door, but i know it is possible.
3 - No it isn't but at the same time i can't discuss it due to the fact it would be going off topic. In short no class should be able to solo content, but it isn't an excuse to let a perma solo just because another class can. GWf has different issues than TR, and so does a CW. For example, the issue with CWs is that you can take 3 and walk through just about any dungeon with little to no problems.
5 - Except they are useful for killing both bosses and mobs with a large amount of HP, such as i state in one of my earlier posts. The issue is that most PvE content right now is mob spam after mob spam, the only real exception being MC since it uses alot of larger Hp mobs, and has a few mini bosses, such as the rival heroes.
At the same time, i don't think there's much point arguing over PvE for two reasons on this topic.
1 - People hate permas due to PvP, not PvE
2 - Cw can make any PvE content pretty easy without much effort.
Bilethorn gives them a huge DPS bonus from what i recall, as does the set bonus from MC.
The only other way i recall being stated (other than those i have argued) about fighting a perma is to turn off your music and try to hear a perma attack you, which really isn't enjoyable for anybody.
1 - I know it is one way, im saying why it is a horrible way to counter, it has a massive CD.
2 - I never said it was impossible to find them, i'm saying how uneffective it can be, and how in the end you end up spending too much of your power trying to counter just one class. The other issue is that the stealth is an extremely un-interactive and "unfun" mechanic (to some/many people). The same can be said about unstopable actually, the only way to counter it is to ignore it, which makes the entire ability pointless and did nothing but waste both players time.
The issue i have is that you don't seem to be understanding why i say what i say, if i need to be clearer then tell me.
I have to change my skills depending on who I am fighting, ig I'm fighting a perma stealth I use Path of the blade, if I¡m fighting a mage I use the teleporting ability (forgot the name). We all have to change our skills depending on who we are fighting.
Except a GWF can't 1v3 anymore, not from what i've seen post patch. They're not nearly as bad as before, least in my experience.
I also have doubts on if you continuously have to switch skills within the match to counter all the other classes, there's always some kind of synergy within your abilities you can use to do decently well vs most players.
The issue more so with permas is how the build (doesn't) interact with others. That is the major complaint by many.
Like you said, this is a little of topic since its about pvp, not pve... But no a tr cant solo TOS for exemple because of the boss witch have too much life regain..
I heard of soloing pk and thats about it, i don't see why you would solo anything but pk anyway as it is useless...
Yea, right now all is about 50000 adds and 1 boss, what make tr useless in pvp exactly. Hopefully this will change soon enought..
Well, bilethorn is good i give it to you, but then its not different from any other damage based weapon enchantment...
No one should have MC set as we are talking about pvp and tenacity make a huge difference in pvp ...
There is much more other way, yea listening to the sound with headset is one but not given to everyone, not everyone have surround sound. There is plenty way to fight them
You probably missed lot of my post 2-3 page earlier, i would suggest taking 5 minute and reading them as i put in some hits on fighting a rogue
Unfortunately some of them mean changing some encouter or spending money on enchant and such but it is the only way to make a tr just plain useless in pvp againts you .
It is perfectly clear, but you're not bringing any solution to the issue and ''removing perma stealth'' is just a bad solution. Because its only a downside to a class already let down behind...
I agree its anoying, and for any perma stealth also. The thing is TR are way too squishy (even with the new patch) to be viable in 5v5 fight, they have to stay back alone or else they just get burn to the ground
The reason is they do have a good burst when not perma stealth and as soon as you get out of stealth you become the main target of any cc and you die basicly....
The best solution i would have would be to remove perma stealth by either
A - Decreasing the ability to stay in stealth for long periods of time
B - Make stealth break once you attack
To balance it out, the TR should get back the damage boosts it lost due to this stealth system (I believe lashing and a few other powers were nerfed due to the increase in stealth for example)
The TR in my mind should be a high single damage single target class with utility abilities to get it in and out of combat, as well as manipulate an opponent 1 on 1 (Stuns, teleports, smoke bombs etc). The main reason the TR even got so many nerfs and debuffs to me, is to compensate for the fact people were using permas, and nerfed the class as a whole instead of solving the issue of why people thought/think TR is "OP".
Stealth for a TR should be used to both escape combat and give them the first strike, im not saying remove stealth, im saying remove the ability to be in stealth "forever".
do permas even need tenacity since the whole premise of how they fight is against taking damage
Perma need the pvp set as its the best bonus (30% stealth meter bonus and 7.5% bonus damage) if dont have this = not perma
Tenacity = defense and cc resist, if we can get some defense, well take it
they obviously dont want to have too much CC on them, they want to be out of this cc as soon as possible.
Hi. The main reason the TR got nerfed was because we dealt immense single target damage, not because of stealth builds. Permastealth and every high Stealth builds people see nowadays are a reaction to the nerfs we received. We have been gimped to the point where not playing with a Stealth build will not allow us to survive in this CC-heavy meta, where the goal of PVP is to somehow prevent your opponents from reacting from your attacks while you nuke them to spawn. This is what PVP is. TR's have ZERO CC's, with DPS getting gimped further and further after each balance patch, further promoting TR's to play with Stealth builds.
If people think it's not fun to play against a class that counters the CC meta everyone else are currently promoting, it's also not fun to play PVP against players who think chain CC's to death are fun. Nerf Stealth, but give us the same tools as everyone else; which is CC.
1. Lashing Blade: 50% more damage from Stealth. Prone the target.
2. Deft Strike: Root the target when used from Stealth.
3. Dazing Strike: 50% less activation time from Stealth. Reduce cooldown by 50% from Stealth.
4. Blitz: Increase damage.
5. Path of the Blades: Increase the damage, allow it to crit, allow it to proc weapon enchantment effects.
6. Wicked Reminder: Increase the damage based on the number of Wicked Reminder debuff stacks.
7. Shadow Strike: Refill Stealth, pull target towards you.
8. Impact Shot: Increase damage when used from Stealth. Remove the DPS nerf based on charges.
9. Bait and Switch: Make it explode or something. We're Rogues but we no has explodes.
10. And more.
Yes. Basically, rework the entire class. As it is right now, if Stealth gets reworked while majority of our skills and feats stay as they are, our overall efficiency for PVP will go down with it. Give us back our original abilities, Sneak Attack dealing 25% more damage from Stealth, Lurker's Assault dealing 60% more damage, Lashing Blade dealing 50% damage when used from Stealth, Deft Strike being an At-Will etc. A lot of things have been taken from us to sate the complaints of other classes. But we all know the amount of complaints really will not change because people will always have different self-serving opinions of what other classes should do while refusing to understand what it is that they were designed for.
Well what about CWs? More fragile than TRs, CC capabilites are nerfed due to tenacity, except we don't have stealth to rely on.
If you are talking PVE, then you have some points but as far as PVP is concerned, no one other than biased TRs will shed a tear if permastealth builds get nerfed again.
What, CW's? You mean the class that can bring the most CC's in a match and still nuke people to spawn in the process of chain CC-ing them to death? Do you know what you're saying? With your WIS bonus + Orb of Imposition you can negate the CC resistance of other players and only CW's can do that. Not to mention you are the only class in PVP that has a bonus to how much you can pierce the CC resistance of other players. What you said is not even a proper argument.
But this is about TR's. Please take your thread-derailing concerns somewhere else.
1) quit whining
2) Learn to play
3) Repeat 1 & 2
and honestly, the reason everyone plays PS TR now is that everything that was good about TR has been nerfed so hard that the class is a shadow of its former self. Their DPS has been nerfed so hard PvE as to make them somewhat irrelivent. When TR clear CN, it's not because they carried the team, it's because the team carried them.
TR was my first and they are so sad. I mean, i can expend twice the effort, work twice as hard, and do 50% damage and 25% CC of any half decent CW.
Why? because people whine and complain on the forums about PvP. You didn't lose because PS TR are overpowered, it's because you need to learn to counter them.
At some point, blame yourself and play better.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
And dont tell me its the only viable option for TR, i play a NORMAL tr using LS, ITC and IS, yes, IS and i top the charts very often and am able to do much more than survive in pvp havig only 700 tenacity and 12k gs, every1 just needs to stop complaining and learning to play your class! Only permas r ridiculous, that i have to agree.
(please ignore any errors, it was written from a phone)
And permas aren't ridiculous unless you have a high GS mismatch. My Combat HR eats equal-GS and/or inexperienced permas for breakfast. My Renegade CW does pretty well against them also - granted I have to switch up my encounters to do so.
Personally a change to allow a longer base stealth but no refill would be fine with me. Eliminates permastealth and allows more tactical use of stealth which the current short duration limits.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
1. TRs damage must be restored. As it was before pvp patch at least.
2. Powers and feats which restore stealth meter must linger invisibility instead.
I say TRs must 1shot people. But after that they must be exposed and dead. It's fair.
Even if someone will still be able to keep invisiblity all the time they wont do anything except knife throwing. And if rogue exposes with combat encounter or SE he couldn't recharge his stealth meter fast to get to shadows again.
Let TRs feel invisible death instead of invisible rats