What if you're a CW and all of your powers for pvp require a target as well as your at wills, with the exception of a daily?
Even if you know exactly where he is you still can't hit him.
Having powers that require targets are actually an advantage for you specially when a TR is in Stealth; because that is when TR's are most vulnerable. These powers are convenient, because they can only activate themselves if and only if you have a target; so you can just keep spamming the button until you get one. One of the best techniques you can do while in a node against a TR in Stealth is to move in random and unpredictable patterns so you make it hard for the TR to land stuff on you. While doing this, keep pressing a CC power of your choice that require a target, and keep an eye out for the color that power. Usually they'd be grayed out, because there are no targets to hit in order to active it. But you will eventually catch a glimpse of the TR on your Target Reticule, and your encounter powers will be eligible for activation. This is where it all begins.
Hit him with your control powers and force him to use ITC. Once he's in ITC, drop your DoT's on him. Even if he's invulnerable because of ITC, keep attacking him with your At-Wills because his Stealth meter will still be damaged. He will use Shadow Strike to come back to Stealth, but now he has DoT's on him, very little charges of Cloud of Steel, and you know roughly where the TR is placed. Go to that place and try not to run away, because it is at this point that TR's are the most vulnerable since ITC is on cooldown AND you can now determine where he is located much easier, because you know the place where you last saw him. TR's can only move as far as their dodge takes them at this point, if they have any stamina left that is. If not they will try to circle the node because movement is the key to life and death for TR's in Stealth. You just need to get one CC in at this point, because once you start that perma-CC rotation you guys have slotted in PVP (Icy Rays, Chill Strike, Entangling Force, Ray of Frost etc), the TR will be completely at your mercy because he does not have Stealth nor ITC ready, and his Stamina has been relatively burned out thanks to your witch-hunt.
I'm a TR, I can do the very same things with slight variations because I have different skills; but the principles still remain. I use skills that require targets in order to detect and attack TR's in Stealth. I have it easier though, since I have the luxury of Stealth and ITC. I can choose not to get hit while still being able to hit them while in Stealth. But there have been various times where I was left without both and still managed to pull this off successfully.
But as a Control Wizard, try not to expect to always be victorious against the bane of your class. CW's are Paper (despite them having the damaging power of Scissors) in the face of TR's who are considered as Scissors - very efficient scissors with the capabilities of transparent glass that melds with its surroundings. We live to cut Paper, and we tend to do it well. GWF's and GF's (the Rocks, that have Paper/Control capabilities) are able to make use of this technique with relatively more ease than CW's because CW's have little defensive capabilities as their purpose is to envelop things in their CC. HR's are also pretty powerful against TR's since they have an encounter ability that acts in a similar fashion as the technique I mentioned, only it hits 3 times and has the capability to ignore defenses if one is spec-ed for Combat.
You must be playing with **** TRs. Do you know how crappy that TR must be to not have enough DPS to kill a CW in several seconds?
Several seconds? Then you aren't up against a permastealth if they have enough DPS to kill a CW in seconds. I'm not sure where the trouble is in beating a non-PS rogue. Semi's are indeed troublesome, but Impact Shot DPS output has been severely gimped and it's current form is nothing like how it used to be. That build is no longer as viable as it used to be.
So what exactly is the problem when the rogue just up and comes to you with 2 DPS encounters + ITC and no ways to refill Stealth? He can shred you in seconds right? That means he forewent BnS and SS for 2 DPS encounters (LB/IS). Friend, that is NOT a rogue intended to play with Stealth.
did they change how targetting works on a perma-rogue as he enters stealth or escapes visible range.
before the last update, i was able to still use attacks that required a target as long as i targeted them right b4 they hit stealth and thus stack dot's to drain it. now all of my at-wills, encounters, and even my daily get canceled the very moment they get back into stealth. they don't get used even though the attack animation went off.
basically makes it far more difficult to hit them if the time they r visible/non-ITC is shorter than my attack animations.
been happening for the last couple of days and on completely different rogues.
People are complaining about it which means cryptic is on the job!
Expect a fix in 2 months
They are not going to remove the perma stealth.
The first reason for that is that perma stealth is still controlable if you have skill. I have a perma stealth and see plenty of people able to keep up with me, while some people complaining because THEY, THEIR SKILL, are no match for it..
They even did it easier for us, giving a profound set with 30% stealth instead of 25 and 7.5% extra damage instead of 5%.
People alway complain when something beat them up in pvp and always will because they want to be the master of all, beauting everything and nothing beating them....
Learn MMO pvp mechanics...
TR*>CW
CW>HR
HR>GWF/GF
GWF/GF>TR
Well guess what, these arent ultimate because of gears in this game.. If they have something to fix it is gears. They cant go around and nerf a class every time someone aint happy about it, this is not the way it work because then if they make TR or whatever other class less stronger, youll be stormed with that class pvp people coming in and complaining about the other class that is op againts them and then guess what?
We end up all with 1k life, 1 damage, first to touch someone 1000 time wins.
This aint tag!
Being on point should drain stealth quickly. Let them roam between points immune I guess if you want perma to be a thing. On point, though, its not a reasonable match-up.
I think this is just a stupid idea, Removing the capacity of a good tr to stay hidden (given the fact that you are bad enought not to touch them even once (Ex lower) will just make them die in 1 second. As a tr, i just get killed 2 hit by mostly any good encounter....
Yea tr hide but perma stealth dont do a lot of damage, in fact, they dont do damage at all, they tickle.. They could kill a mage if hes too stupid not to run away but there is no way he will kill any even geared gwf or gf....
Non perma will hit more, but die faster due to the fact that as soon as you see them, they are dead.... (and you know that)
All class actualy have a GREAT way to counter a TR...
GF and GWF have frontline surge that basicly touch the WHOLE point and put a tr down, making them most of the time loose their stealth, and then its easy to pull a treat rush + knockback + IBS. Witch kill any tr, IBS behing for the after soulforge kill if needed.....
CW can use ANY of their aoe to remove ANY tr from stealth.... they just dont want to put them becaus they do less damage... TO ALL CW PVP SPECTED, IF YOU HAVE ENOUGHT OF A PERMA, JUST **** CHANGE YOUR SKILL FOR THIS 10MIN! Easy and control any tr... (steal time touch the whole point youll either force them to retreat or kill them)
Archer use split the sky and thorn ward on the point, the tr will run or die again....
Dc could use any of their aoe and hope to touch them. As a tr i find Chain very anoying as i need to watch for it.. Chain + shield is very anoying. He get healed more than i can damage and i need to avoid chain... Never happen yet (yay) but Sun burst is clearly a tr counter skill, just press tab before using it on point and here is your tr, revealed from his stealth, ready for a chain to lock him up until reforcment arives...
The thing is people want to use their most damage skill and beat everything... in any battle, must it be in real life or in a game, you have to change tactics in order to win, or the enemy will use a tactic to counter yours, when you're dead and wait 10-15 second, take the time to change your skill loadout before you go back, with all your single target, trying to run in circle to find an enemy you cant see...
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Step 1: make sure music and other "distraction sounds" are off. You only want to hear combat sounds
Step 2: Actually listen during PvP
Step 3: When a rogue attacks from stealth (melee or thrown, doesn't matter) you can actually hear the sound and its DIRECTION. It will work with speakers, but its better with headphones/headset.
Step 4: move DIRECTLY towards the sound spamming an at-will or encounter power that deals damage or CCs.
You will never lose to a perma-stealth rogue again, ever.
So your solution to fight Perma is what? Turn off half of the game? Im not going to lower my graphics and/or turn off sounds JUST to fight a class. Are you kidding me? What's the point in even making music or sounds for the game if i need to turn them off to play the goddam thing?
So your solution to fight Perma is what? Turn off half of the game? Im not going to lower my graphics and/or turn off sounds JUST to fight a class. Are you kidding me? What's the point in even making music or sounds for the game if i need to turn them off to play the goddam thing?
He said that to help people who cant ear the attack sound comming because of backgroup music.
He never said anything about lowering your graphics lol
Then you will say ''i wont change my encounter just to fight a class'' ?!?
Every class have a good way to fight a perma stealth, find it or keep crying.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
He said that to help people who cant ear the attack sound comming because of backgroup music.
He never said anything about lowering your graphics lol
Then you will say ''i wont change my encounter just to fight a class'' ?!?
Every class have a good way to fight a perma stealth, find it or keep crying.
There's a major difference between changing encounters, and not listening to anything. If you have to turn off your music to play a game, or lower graphics, anything of that nature at all, then it isn't a good solution at all. Sure, in SC2 i can see where stealth units are by having every graphic on the lowest possible setting, but seriously why? Why bother making high end graphics or sound if you "need" to ignore them to gain any kind of advantage?
Also, having an opinion doesn;t mean im "crying", perhaps learn to have an actual argument sometime.
I think this is just a stupid idea, Removing the capacity of a good tr to stay hidden (given the fact that you are bad enought not to touch them even once (Ex lower) will just make them die in 1 second. As a tr, i just get killed 2 hit by mostly any good encounter....
Yea tr hide but perma stealth dont do a lot of damage, in fact, they dont do damage at all, they tickle.. They could kill a mage if hes too stupid not to run away but there is no way he will kill any even geared gwf or gf....
Non perma will hit more, but die faster due to the fact that as soon as you see them, they are dead.... (and you know that)
2 hits? even without considering deflect, rogues are just not that squishy to die in 2 hits. only real fear is cc spam and they got immunity for that unless u prone them outside of immunity.
all the permas i have seen actually hit hard and definitely hard enough to out-dps a cleric healing themselves although it may take a minute. some even have malabog set i think which is an instant 5k+ from a dot just for throwing a single knife and it has a cooldown of 15 sec i think (not sure) on top of bilethorn which seems to do a lot of damage too.
normally, after being hit by all 8 daggers i will have lost at least 10k hp. add in the fact that some have lashing instead of bait n switch, and there is just no way i can see them hitting low except on tanky characters while anything not tanky will probably die to a perma. also, duelist flurry hurts regardless of the rogue type that lands it on u and u may never see it coming until u notice u got caught in the flurry part while they prepped the earlier 2 hits as they got closer to u.
i personally just find it funny how some people defend permas by saying u should ignore them. my only reply to such suggestions would be, what if there are 2-3 permas each harassing different nodes or working together to hold 1 node?
2 h
add in the fact that some have lashing instead of bait n switch, and there is just no way i can see them hitting low except on tanky characters while anything not tanky will probably die to a perma.
i personally just find it funny how some people defend permas by saying u should ignore them. my only reply to such suggestions would be, what if there are 2-3 permas each harassing different nodes or working together to hold 1 node?
No bait and switch = Not perma stealth... just so you know...
I never said to ignore a perma, i said to put him out of stealth, use AOE skill, he will loose stealth fast enought...
Incorrect. And yes, we will keep on giving feedback or "crying" as some TRs who are scared of their class getting nerfed likes to put it.
I have 6 character, so i dont mind at all a nerf, but asking for a feature to be removed isnt a nerf.
And you should read my post a little higher in the thread as i explain the way to harrass a perma stealth with any class... But hey, you're probably a mage who absolutely want to keep all his single target on his bar so keep ''giving feedback''
Incorrect. And yes, we will keep on giving feedback or "crying" as some TRs who are scared of their class getting nerfed likes to put it.
TR's have been nerfed multiple times in response to people crying. Every single class has multiple ways to counter a permastealth TR. None of them are particularly difficult to use, especially since most permastealth TR's only come in two flavors - invisible or dead. Once you negate their ability to hide from you, they die exceedingly quickly. If you can't master any of the various tips, tricks, and strategies for shredding permastealth TR's (that have been posted multiple times on the forum), then buy a lantern of revelation artifact.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
No bait and switch = Not perma stealth... just so you know...
I never said to ignore a perma, i said to put him out of stealth, use AOE skill, he will loose stealth fast enought...
I have 6 character, so i dont mind at all a nerf, but asking for a feature to be removed isnt a nerf.
And you should read my post a little higher in the thread as i explain the way to harrass a perma stealth with any class... But hey, you're probably a mage who absolutely want to keep all his single target on his bar so keep ''giving feedback''
Read my post, that is before yours on the other page, and come back whit an actual argument... maby ?
the ignore perma part was not in reference to u
and permas can stay in stealth for a very long time without bait n switch. they seem to normally just use that one as a filler to reach farther distances because i rarely see the clone when i fight them. generally just ITC --> SS repeatedly
Do tell me, how are you going to search for an INVISIBLE HERO.
How do you know he isn't near you, or where he is, and if/when you do, how do you know he hasn't moved somewhere else?
You must be really really naive to not understand how powerful stealth is, there's a reason any type of hero with any form of stealth, in any game, is usually Overpowered. The same goes for revive effects such as "soulforged", and you never will understand it because in your warped mind, it is all somehow balanced.
Do tell me, how are you going to search for an INVISIBLE HERO.
How do you know he isn't near you, or where he is, and if/when you do, how do you know he hasn't moved somewhere else?
You must be really really naive to not understand how powerful stealth is, there's a reason any type of hero with any form of stealth, in any game, is usually Overpowered. The same goes for revive effects such as "soulforged", and you never will understand it because in your warped mind, it is all somehow balanced.
tbh, I don't think the permastealth aspect of a tr is OP, it's the ability to do so much damage while in stealth
Tr's can be countered by very good gf's/gwf's who predict where a tr is and know if his itc is on cd. It just takes a lot of skill which is why the pvp in this game is so fun/elaborate
Do tell me, how are you going to search for an INVISIBLE HERO.
How do you know he isn't near you, or where he is, and if/when you do, how do you know he hasn't moved somewhere else?
You must be really really naive to not understand how powerful stealth is, there's a reason any type of hero with any form of stealth, in any game, is usually Overpowered. The same goes for revive effects such as "soulforged", and you never will understand it because in your warped mind, it is all somehow balanced.
If he is near you (witch should be on a point, if you are not on a point you did not get the point of pvp in neverwinter) the point will show it, either hes winning yours or you cant win his... You know when someone stand on a point it show blue/red or red/blue if now one stand on it it have 1 colors with maybe a cooldown next to it.. hope you know that.... If hes not on the point, hes eiter running away cuz low on life/stealth so look for hiding spot (corner or on the way to potion spots)
If hes attacking you, he might not be far. Im pretty sure you can figure out. Anyway i made my point and dont have time to argue with buthurt CW that dont understand they cant be the best in pve AND in pvp... im out of here unless you can find a real argument to counter mine that have been poste all around this post.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
tbh, I don't think the permastealth aspect of a tr is OP, it's the ability to do so much damage while in stealth
Tr's can be countered by very good gf's/gwf's who predict where a tr is and know if his itc is on cd. It just takes a lot of skill which is why the pvp in this game is so fun/elaborate
Right i'm sorry, the ability to be anywhere at any time without any real form of detection must be such a drawback. Or the ability to just escape from combat, sneak to any point you wish to cap, throw daggers from any direction while being invisible, sneak away for heals....well the list goes on.
Also, you listed 2/6 classes that are able to "counter" it without saying how, in any shape of form. So, you expect the other classes to do what, sit and wait for a swift death?
If he is near you (witch should be on a point, if you are not on a point you did not get the point of pvp in neverwinter) the point will show it, either hes winning yours or you cant win his... You know when someone stand on a point it show blue/red or red/blue if now one stand on it it have 1 colors with maybe a cooldown next to it.. hope you know that.... If hes not on the point, hes eiter running away cuz low on life/stealth so look for hiding spot (corner or on the way to potion spots)
If hes attacking you, he might not be far. Im pretty sure you can figure out. Anyway i made my point and dont have time to argue with buthurt CW that dont understand they cant be the best in pve AND in pvp... im out of here unless you can find a real argument to counter mine that have been poste all around this post.
IF they are on point, but you still do not know where, and they are able to actually move around on/around the dam point.
Most of what you argue is pure guesswork with no real idea. You can not ever know where he is, you can not ever predict where he will go. You can play guessing games all you want, you arn't going to beat a perma in stealth without being lucky.
And butthurt CW? Really? You went that low to prove you are a total troll? I don't even have a CW, so please, try harder.
Right i'm sorry, the ability to be anywhere at any time without any real form of detection must be such a drawback. Or the ability to just escape from combat, sneak to any point you wish to cap, throw daggers from any direction while being invisible, sneak away for heals....well the list goes on.
Also, you listed 2/6 classes that are able to "counter" it without saying how, in any shape of form. So, you expect the other classes to do what, sit and wait for a swift death?
Be anywhere at anytime? lol tr dont have ''teleport to that point'' skills by the way.. Lantern of revelation is a way of detection!
And they dont throw the dagger from any direction, they throw it from their own hands... lol
Im not even going to bother answering the other question about the class AS THIS THREAD COVER AROUND 10 DIFFERENT COUNTER FOR EACH CLASS TO FIGHT A TR! Read it or stay bad in pvp !
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Be anywhere at anytime? lol tr dont have ''teleport to that point'' skills by the way.. Lantern of revelation is a way of detection!
And they dont throw the dagger from any direction, they throw it from their own hands... lol
Im not even going to bother answering the other question about the class AS THIS THREAD COVER AROUND 10 DIFFERENT COUNTER FOR EACH CLASS TO FIGHT A TR! Read it or stay bad in pvp !
1 - Not everyone even has latern, or can get it for cheap/at all without grinding
2 - Yes actually TR can teleport....considering i actually used the class, so please, stop lieing.
3 - Yes they can throw it from any direction...obviously they throw it from their hands....try harder again?
4 - All the ways you and everyone else have suggested are extremely flawed, but live in your own world, it really doesn't matter since you need to call me a "butthurt CW" when i don't even PLAY that class
5 - I don't actually lose a lot if PvP, care to say another try hard comment against my arguments?
6 - L2P is really getting old, actually acknowledge and discuss what somebody says with real responses, or don't bother talking at all.
Most of what you argue is pure guesswork with no real idea. You can not ever know where he is, you can not ever predict where he will go. You can play guessing games all you want, you arn't going to beat a perma in stealth without being lucky.
.
No, its not guess work, its knowledge, knowledge on the tr build and their way to fight. Knowledge on my own class skill when i have to fight a tr, if i play my HR i storm the point with aoe like split the sky (will stop the tr from attacking you or he will loose his stealth), then throw a thorn ward (will attack him if he get near and cover nearly the whole point) here you can still have the tr attack you, run a little bit and play your movement card with the 6-7 dodge you have at your disposition...
Ooo you'll say you're not a tr?
What are you ? Cuz you said you were not a cw... il go with GWF
Use not so fast (that more of a lucky guess but if you saw him, use it, will slow him down and you can then follow him around, big mistake often done by tr to get next to you to trow a lashing blade or just a simple attack) Use frontline surge, very wide range. By the way the tr will never be PERMA when you're not around, so before you get to point, make sure you spotted him (if hes not in a team fight) Slam the hell out of him, slowed and damaged every second, he will show up in about 2-3 second...Even punishing charge could work if you are realy pissed, if you cant touch him with 3 charge of that idk what to tell you, figure it out yourself...
As a dc, yea its harder to find him but he wont be able to kill you fast unless you dont heal yourself, a healer should not be alone on a point in any circunstance onther than waiting on the team to back him up...But you can still use divinity sun burst to push him off and maby even damage him enought or on a good time to make him loose his stealth. (yeah dont take much to loose stealth on a tr, need to have a specific timed rotation, 1 second could mean death...) as soon as you spot him, forgemaster will work or chain, chain is alway a good option to put on the oposite side of the point you're at so he is forced to run off point or directly on you witch could mean a quick spot check from you the hell just use hallowground/astral and take the time to slowly type /emote taunt igotballs or something...
Anyway you clearly just got killed by a tr 2-3 match in a row and cant take it, go have a cigarette or a bear, calm down, think about a way to beat them up and youll be able too.. Try getting the new pvp set, they are good. 20% damage/critical resist on a tr is a lot since we are mostly bassed on crit and damage... and we, perma, dont have a lot of damage to start with.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
If he is near you (witch should be on a point, if you are not on a point you did not get the point of pvp in neverwinter) the point will show it, either hes winning yours or you cant win his... You know when someone stand on a point it show blue/red or red/blue if now one stand on it it have 1 colors with maybe a cooldown next to it.. hope you know that.... If hes not on the point, hes eiter running away cuz low on life/stealth so look for hiding spot (corner or on the way to potion spots)
If hes attacking you, he might not be far. Im pretty sure you can figure out. Anyway i made my point and dont have time to argue with buthurt CW that dont understand they cant be the best in pve AND in pvp... im out of here unless you can find a real argument to counter mine that have been poste all around this post.
when i am on my rogue, i notice 2 types of permas. those with lashing and those without it.
those with lashing will actually come in melee-range and thus give u the heads-up with the node color, but that doesn't really help since they run faster and u will never know they r next to u until u get hit by lashing. in typical rogue vs rogue, winner is usually whoever gets lashing off 1st and it doesn't help that they follow it with ITC and then hide off-node in stealth to throw daggers.
permas without lashing r frustrating to find as they almost never stand on the node because they don't need to. they can easily whittle your hp down off-node while u search all around the node hoping to find them. if they have the speed feature, then i might as well give up on chasing them down. even this type of perma can easily shave off half your hp within 10 seconds and kill u with a daily or they can wait a bit longer and kill u purely from at-wills as u can't hit them back
some suggest aoes like path of blades, but that never works from what i can tell. anyone half decent will just dodge roll once and be outside of the aoe radius, wait 5 or so seconds, then come back with at least 1 of your skills on cooldown.
at best, i have only seen another rogue stalemate a perma and he was probably a perma too. outside of that, not a single other class seemed to be able to reliably deal with them as i always see red on our home node if there is a perma on red team. i suppose guardians/gwf's have it easier as they can spam ranged aoe prones and i think they even get a reduced cooldown if they miss.
the best strategy i have ever seen for dealing with permas is to have your entire team completely ignore them and let them have your home node. it might be that i never grouped with someone capable of fighting them off consistently that is not a perma themselves, but teams with permas have a high rate of winning.
this is not to say that i have not beaten them sometimes, but it is so frustrating that i don't even try anymore. i rather distract 3 people at mid all trying to kill a "visible" rogue while my team kills them instead while i survive through deflect and high mobility.
1 - Not everyone even has latern, or can get it for cheap/at all without grinding
2 - Yes actually TR can teleport....considering i actually used the class, so please, stop lieing.
3 - Yes they can throw it from any direction...obviously they throw it from their hands....try harder again?
4 - All the ways you and everyone else have suggested are extremely flawed, but live in your own world, it really doesn't matter since you need to call me a "butthurt CW" when i don't even PLAY that class
5 - I don't actually lose a lot if PvP, care to say another try hard comment against my arguments?
6 - L2P is really getting old, actually acknowledge and discuss what somebody says with real responses, or don't bother talking at all.
1:you're right, but hey dont they give it free at lvl 21? Yes they do Choosed a water? You're choice, dont ask for a nerf for that cmon now..
2: The teleport is a daily power that need to be casted on a enemy witch is on attack rage (and will let you spot him for free... nice for you that didnt know where he was no? The other one will remove you from stealth right away then what is the perma problem if he put himself out of stealth ?!?
3: just what i said... omg thats what you meant.. .well **** NERF GWF THEY CAN ATTACK ANY DIRECTION THEY WANT OMG OP!!!!
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Hard to discuss class balance, each and every such discussion inevitably ends up in personal attacks and flames...
this post made me lol kind of hard
-tr's have a feat called tenacious concealment minimizing the stealth depletion
-most tr's can dodge sunburst/chains and if without a dodge they should have itc...so l2dodge?
-you can damage dc's if you specc'd correctly, all you have to do is get someone to half hp and shocking
I play a not so good tr and even I think the class is OP
from what I've seen, TR's have been given the tools and along with a lot of knowledge of other classes, most pvp tr's can survive any 1 v 1. I think most just stick a dc with them b/c it wastes both of their time
Oh wow, I'm actually talking to someone who knows what top end TRs look like
As a rogue I agree, simply because of duelist flurry + bilethorn combo
running around and never capping lool
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
Mod Notice:
A large number of recent posts have been removed.
At the point insults are dished out or I'm right and You are wrong arguments presented it is time to fire a report and walk away. This thread got so consumed by flaming in the last few hours I couldn't even begin to sift the arguments from the flames.
Please remain respectful in your disagreements. It is that simple.
lol... good joke here. Good HR can take down CW without losing 25% HP.
As for Steal Time and AoE setup for CW vs TR, bad advice again. You never gonna kill the perma like this, and he can dodge EASILY. the AoE.
lol... hilarious joke here. Decent cw can take down all but gwf w/o losing 25% hp now. Tenacity makes even the flimsiest classes tougher. Funny how you try to sneak in your flame at hr's in a forum ABOUT TR's.
Hard to discuss class balance, each and every such discussion inevitably ends up in personal attacks and flames...
Kind of hypocritical, when half of your feedback(not counting this comment) has been "this guy's wrong", "that's stupid advice'
That being said, yes permastealth's annoying to deal with. Doesn't mean there isn't a way to deal with them... but it is difficult to. Same can be said for iv sent gwfs. The only true way to fix the issue is to break down tr's, and I don't think that should be done. Now, if new things came out that helped defend against them, as opposed to nuking it out right, I think that might be a better solution.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I have read all ten pages in this thread and a multitude of other threads regarding the PermaStealth. I am going to throw out my two coppers as well.
First, I am a nice squishy CW, I die a LOT, I can accept that. I hardly get any kills, but do get a lot of assists, I can accept that as well. I bought the token and respeced my toon so it could try to compensate for hitting enemies that I can not see. Irritating but done on the learning curve, so acceptable.
Basically, I have seen this issue boil down into two basic sides. Those that think you must be perfect at running the stealth otherwise they die instantly, (which think their class should not be touched). And those that are irritated at never seeing their opponent, (and think they should be nerfed in some way).
A few random points that I would like to mention. I am not gonna bother going back to figure out exactly to who they are aimed at, but if the shoe fits wear it.
I would like to thank those that have provided help to those of us who are squishy against you.
Sadly, I have seen a lot more of the other type of player, which is basically say that anyone who voices an opinion against their class is just crying, and even more sadly this includes the mods of this forum.
A lot of players are complaining that PVP in these circumstance is no fun, which is supposed to be the point of the game, if they are not having fun they quit playing. Yes, YOU may be having fun squishing all of them and laughing about it, but run enough off the game and it folds.
Yes, they should learn how to play at least the class they chose, but saying they should create 5 different toons to learn how to play all of them is a bit of overreaching. Likewise saying they should have to change game settings is a bridge too far as well. However, changing skills is sound advice.
Re the chatter of "other games", I do not care. I do not play those games and I do play Neverwinter. If I want to learn how those games work I will go play them.
Now I will give my opinion regarding being invisible. NW is based on the Forgotten Realms. I have not played the actual RPG, but I have been reading the books since the mid nineties. The laws of magic in the Forgotten Realms state that ANY form of attack immediately dispels invisibility. There are no exceptions for this, including for the gods themselves. (See the avatar quintet for examples of this.) This applies to all types of invisibility including psionics. So if I were making the change it would be that you could remain invisible as long as you want until you attack, at which point it would dispel, I would even give a base damage increase to any attack while invisible. But you would have to stop attacking to go invisible again. Simple and it follows the laws of magic of the realms this game is based on. As I do not play the HR, I am sure other tweaks would need to follow as well, I leave that to the pros to figure out.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
I've been mostly happy with the latest patch. I still usually get underpowered or overpowered teams to fight with though. Actually more 1 or 2 really good PvP guys in a team full of poorly equipped nubs. To be honest those I play with, and myself included, are all mid-level at PvP so we see a bit of everything I think. But today I've seen the worst of it: four perma rouges and a pug CW (I guess their fifth rouge was out sick). The best we could do is get a cap for a short period. We were really baffled on how to deal with them. Usually when we run across a perma TR we just avoid them, but there were just too many this time. As a CW I ran through every trick mentioned in this forum post to no avail. We had a DC with us who would occasionally snag one in chains and we would pour on damage as fast as possible. The rouge would usually just dart away while his buddies continued to kill us in a bile poison heap.
There appears to be a short window where they lose stealth, but they seem to do two dodges during this time and go right back in to it. Since they are dodges there is nothing we can hit them with during that time. Occasionally I can hit them in the split second at the end of the second dodge before they re-stealth but that doesn't do that much good as they can just go off somewhere unseen and recoup the loss to their stealth meter.
I like truckula's idea: if they attack they should be visible.
Comments
Having powers that require targets are actually an advantage for you specially when a TR is in Stealth; because that is when TR's are most vulnerable. These powers are convenient, because they can only activate themselves if and only if you have a target; so you can just keep spamming the button until you get one. One of the best techniques you can do while in a node against a TR in Stealth is to move in random and unpredictable patterns so you make it hard for the TR to land stuff on you. While doing this, keep pressing a CC power of your choice that require a target, and keep an eye out for the color that power. Usually they'd be grayed out, because there are no targets to hit in order to active it. But you will eventually catch a glimpse of the TR on your Target Reticule, and your encounter powers will be eligible for activation. This is where it all begins.
Hit him with your control powers and force him to use ITC. Once he's in ITC, drop your DoT's on him. Even if he's invulnerable because of ITC, keep attacking him with your At-Wills because his Stealth meter will still be damaged. He will use Shadow Strike to come back to Stealth, but now he has DoT's on him, very little charges of Cloud of Steel, and you know roughly where the TR is placed. Go to that place and try not to run away, because it is at this point that TR's are the most vulnerable since ITC is on cooldown AND you can now determine where he is located much easier, because you know the place where you last saw him. TR's can only move as far as their dodge takes them at this point, if they have any stamina left that is. If not they will try to circle the node because movement is the key to life and death for TR's in Stealth. You just need to get one CC in at this point, because once you start that perma-CC rotation you guys have slotted in PVP (Icy Rays, Chill Strike, Entangling Force, Ray of Frost etc), the TR will be completely at your mercy because he does not have Stealth nor ITC ready, and his Stamina has been relatively burned out thanks to your witch-hunt.
I'm a TR, I can do the very same things with slight variations because I have different skills; but the principles still remain. I use skills that require targets in order to detect and attack TR's in Stealth. I have it easier though, since I have the luxury of Stealth and ITC. I can choose not to get hit while still being able to hit them while in Stealth. But there have been various times where I was left without both and still managed to pull this off successfully.
But as a Control Wizard, try not to expect to always be victorious against the bane of your class. CW's are Paper (despite them having the damaging power of Scissors) in the face of TR's who are considered as Scissors - very efficient scissors with the capabilities of transparent glass that melds with its surroundings. We live to cut Paper, and we tend to do it well. GWF's and GF's (the Rocks, that have Paper/Control capabilities) are able to make use of this technique with relatively more ease than CW's because CW's have little defensive capabilities as their purpose is to envelop things in their CC. HR's are also pretty powerful against TR's since they have an encounter ability that acts in a similar fashion as the technique I mentioned, only it hits 3 times and has the capability to ignore defenses if one is spec-ed for Combat.
Several seconds? Then you aren't up against a permastealth if they have enough DPS to kill a CW in seconds. I'm not sure where the trouble is in beating a non-PS rogue. Semi's are indeed troublesome, but Impact Shot DPS output has been severely gimped and it's current form is nothing like how it used to be. That build is no longer as viable as it used to be.
So what exactly is the problem when the rogue just up and comes to you with 2 DPS encounters + ITC and no ways to refill Stealth? He can shred you in seconds right? That means he forewent BnS and SS for 2 DPS encounters (LB/IS). Friend, that is NOT a rogue intended to play with Stealth.
Being unable to target someone "EVER" is a broken mechanic.
Its actually worse than GWF god mode.
before the last update, i was able to still use attacks that required a target as long as i targeted them right b4 they hit stealth and thus stack dot's to drain it. now all of my at-wills, encounters, and even my daily get canceled the very moment they get back into stealth. they don't get used even though the attack animation went off.
basically makes it far more difficult to hit them if the time they r visible/non-ITC is shorter than my attack animations.
been happening for the last couple of days and on completely different rogues.
People are complaining about it which means cryptic is on the job!
Expect a fix in 2 months
They are not going to remove the perma stealth.
The first reason for that is that perma stealth is still controlable if you have skill. I have a perma stealth and see plenty of people able to keep up with me, while some people complaining because THEY, THEIR SKILL, are no match for it..
They even did it easier for us, giving a profound set with 30% stealth instead of 25 and 7.5% extra damage instead of 5%.
People alway complain when something beat them up in pvp and always will because they want to be the master of all, beauting everything and nothing beating them....
Learn MMO pvp mechanics...
TR*>CW
CW>HR
HR>GWF/GF
GWF/GF>TR
Well guess what, these arent ultimate because of gears in this game.. If they have something to fix it is gears. They cant go around and nerf a class every time someone aint happy about it, this is not the way it work because then if they make TR or whatever other class less stronger, youll be stormed with that class pvp people coming in and complaining about the other class that is op againts them and then guess what?
We end up all with 1k life, 1 damage, first to touch someone 1000 time wins.
This aint tag!
I think this is just a stupid idea, Removing the capacity of a good tr to stay hidden (given the fact that you are bad enought not to touch them even once (Ex lower) will just make them die in 1 second. As a tr, i just get killed 2 hit by mostly any good encounter....
Yea tr hide but perma stealth dont do a lot of damage, in fact, they dont do damage at all, they tickle.. They could kill a mage if hes too stupid not to run away but there is no way he will kill any even geared gwf or gf....
Non perma will hit more, but die faster due to the fact that as soon as you see them, they are dead.... (and you know that)
All class actualy have a GREAT way to counter a TR...
GF and GWF have frontline surge that basicly touch the WHOLE point and put a tr down, making them most of the time loose their stealth, and then its easy to pull a treat rush + knockback + IBS. Witch kill any tr, IBS behing for the after soulforge kill if needed.....
CW can use ANY of their aoe to remove ANY tr from stealth.... they just dont want to put them becaus they do less damage... TO ALL CW PVP SPECTED, IF YOU HAVE ENOUGHT OF A PERMA, JUST **** CHANGE YOUR SKILL FOR THIS 10MIN! Easy and control any tr... (steal time touch the whole point youll either force them to retreat or kill them)
Archer use split the sky and thorn ward on the point, the tr will run or die again....
Dc could use any of their aoe and hope to touch them. As a tr i find Chain very anoying as i need to watch for it.. Chain + shield is very anoying. He get healed more than i can damage and i need to avoid chain... Never happen yet (yay) but Sun burst is clearly a tr counter skill, just press tab before using it on point and here is your tr, revealed from his stealth, ready for a chain to lock him up until reforcment arives...
The thing is people want to use their most damage skill and beat everything... in any battle, must it be in real life or in a game, you have to change tactics in order to win, or the enemy will use a tactic to counter yours, when you're dead and wait 10-15 second, take the time to change your skill loadout before you go back, with all your single target, trying to run in circle to find an enemy you cant see...
So your solution to fight Perma is what? Turn off half of the game? Im not going to lower my graphics and/or turn off sounds JUST to fight a class. Are you kidding me? What's the point in even making music or sounds for the game if i need to turn them off to play the goddam thing?
He said that to help people who cant ear the attack sound comming because of backgroup music.
He never said anything about lowering your graphics lol
Then you will say ''i wont change my encounter just to fight a class'' ?!?
Every class have a good way to fight a perma stealth, find it or keep crying.
Incorrect. And yes, we will keep on giving feedback or "crying" as some TRs who are scared of their class getting nerfed likes to put it.
There's a major difference between changing encounters, and not listening to anything. If you have to turn off your music to play a game, or lower graphics, anything of that nature at all, then it isn't a good solution at all. Sure, in SC2 i can see where stealth units are by having every graphic on the lowest possible setting, but seriously why? Why bother making high end graphics or sound if you "need" to ignore them to gain any kind of advantage?
Also, having an opinion doesn;t mean im "crying", perhaps learn to have an actual argument sometime.
2 hits? even without considering deflect, rogues are just not that squishy to die in 2 hits. only real fear is cc spam and they got immunity for that unless u prone them outside of immunity.
all the permas i have seen actually hit hard and definitely hard enough to out-dps a cleric healing themselves although it may take a minute. some even have malabog set i think which is an instant 5k+ from a dot just for throwing a single knife and it has a cooldown of 15 sec i think (not sure) on top of bilethorn which seems to do a lot of damage too.
normally, after being hit by all 8 daggers i will have lost at least 10k hp. add in the fact that some have lashing instead of bait n switch, and there is just no way i can see them hitting low except on tanky characters while anything not tanky will probably die to a perma. also, duelist flurry hurts regardless of the rogue type that lands it on u and u may never see it coming until u notice u got caught in the flurry part while they prepped the earlier 2 hits as they got closer to u.
i personally just find it funny how some people defend permas by saying u should ignore them. my only reply to such suggestions would be, what if there are 2-3 permas each harassing different nodes or working together to hold 1 node?
No bait and switch = Not perma stealth... just so you know...
I never said to ignore a perma, i said to put him out of stealth, use AOE skill, he will loose stealth fast enought...
I have 6 character, so i dont mind at all a nerf, but asking for a feature to be removed isnt a nerf.
And you should read my post a little higher in the thread as i explain the way to harrass a perma stealth with any class... But hey, you're probably a mage who absolutely want to keep all his single target on his bar so keep ''giving feedback''
Read my post, that is before yours on the other page, and come back whit an actual argument... maby ?
TR's have been nerfed multiple times in response to people crying. Every single class has multiple ways to counter a permastealth TR. None of them are particularly difficult to use, especially since most permastealth TR's only come in two flavors - invisible or dead. Once you negate their ability to hide from you, they die exceedingly quickly. If you can't master any of the various tips, tricks, and strategies for shredding permastealth TR's (that have been posted multiple times on the forum), then buy a lantern of revelation artifact.
the ignore perma part was not in reference to u
and permas can stay in stealth for a very long time without bait n switch. they seem to normally just use that one as a filler to reach farther distances because i rarely see the clone when i fight them. generally just ITC --> SS repeatedly
How do you know he isn't near you, or where he is, and if/when you do, how do you know he hasn't moved somewhere else?
You must be really really naive to not understand how powerful stealth is, there's a reason any type of hero with any form of stealth, in any game, is usually Overpowered. The same goes for revive effects such as "soulforged", and you never will understand it because in your warped mind, it is all somehow balanced.
tbh, I don't think the permastealth aspect of a tr is OP, it's the ability to do so much damage while in stealth
Tr's can be countered by very good gf's/gwf's who predict where a tr is and know if his itc is on cd. It just takes a lot of skill which is why the pvp in this game is so fun/elaborate
If he is near you (witch should be on a point, if you are not on a point you did not get the point of pvp in neverwinter) the point will show it, either hes winning yours or you cant win his... You know when someone stand on a point it show blue/red or red/blue if now one stand on it it have 1 colors with maybe a cooldown next to it.. hope you know that.... If hes not on the point, hes eiter running away cuz low on life/stealth so look for hiding spot (corner or on the way to potion spots)
If hes attacking you, he might not be far. Im pretty sure you can figure out. Anyway i made my point and dont have time to argue with buthurt CW that dont understand they cant be the best in pve AND in pvp... im out of here unless you can find a real argument to counter mine that have been poste all around this post.
Right i'm sorry, the ability to be anywhere at any time without any real form of detection must be such a drawback. Or the ability to just escape from combat, sneak to any point you wish to cap, throw daggers from any direction while being invisible, sneak away for heals....well the list goes on.
Also, you listed 2/6 classes that are able to "counter" it without saying how, in any shape of form. So, you expect the other classes to do what, sit and wait for a swift death?
IF they are on point, but you still do not know where, and they are able to actually move around on/around the dam point.
Most of what you argue is pure guesswork with no real idea. You can not ever know where he is, you can not ever predict where he will go. You can play guessing games all you want, you arn't going to beat a perma in stealth without being lucky.
And butthurt CW? Really? You went that low to prove you are a total troll? I don't even have a CW, so please, try harder.
Be anywhere at anytime? lol tr dont have ''teleport to that point'' skills by the way.. Lantern of revelation is a way of detection!
And they dont throw the dagger from any direction, they throw it from their own hands... lol
Im not even going to bother answering the other question about the class AS THIS THREAD COVER AROUND 10 DIFFERENT COUNTER FOR EACH CLASS TO FIGHT A TR! Read it or stay bad in pvp !
1 - Not everyone even has latern, or can get it for cheap/at all without grinding
2 - Yes actually TR can teleport....considering i actually used the class, so please, stop lieing.
3 - Yes they can throw it from any direction...obviously they throw it from their hands....try harder again?
4 - All the ways you and everyone else have suggested are extremely flawed, but live in your own world, it really doesn't matter since you need to call me a "butthurt CW" when i don't even PLAY that class
5 - I don't actually lose a lot if PvP, care to say another try hard comment against my arguments?
6 - L2P is really getting old, actually acknowledge and discuss what somebody says with real responses, or don't bother talking at all.
No, its not guess work, its knowledge, knowledge on the tr build and their way to fight. Knowledge on my own class skill when i have to fight a tr, if i play my HR i storm the point with aoe like split the sky (will stop the tr from attacking you or he will loose his stealth), then throw a thorn ward (will attack him if he get near and cover nearly the whole point) here you can still have the tr attack you, run a little bit and play your movement card with the 6-7 dodge you have at your disposition...
Ooo you'll say you're not a tr?
What are you ? Cuz you said you were not a cw... il go with GWF
Use not so fast (that more of a lucky guess but if you saw him, use it, will slow him down and you can then follow him around, big mistake often done by tr to get next to you to trow a lashing blade or just a simple attack) Use frontline surge, very wide range. By the way the tr will never be PERMA when you're not around, so before you get to point, make sure you spotted him (if hes not in a team fight) Slam the hell out of him, slowed and damaged every second, he will show up in about 2-3 second...Even punishing charge could work if you are realy pissed, if you cant touch him with 3 charge of that idk what to tell you, figure it out yourself...
As a dc, yea its harder to find him but he wont be able to kill you fast unless you dont heal yourself, a healer should not be alone on a point in any circunstance onther than waiting on the team to back him up...But you can still use divinity sun burst to push him off and maby even damage him enought or on a good time to make him loose his stealth. (yeah dont take much to loose stealth on a tr, need to have a specific timed rotation, 1 second could mean death...) as soon as you spot him, forgemaster will work or chain, chain is alway a good option to put on the oposite side of the point you're at so he is forced to run off point or directly on you witch could mean a quick spot check from you
Anyway you clearly just got killed by a tr 2-3 match in a row and cant take it, go have a cigarette or a bear, calm down, think about a way to beat them up and youll be able too.. Try getting the new pvp set, they are good. 20% damage/critical resist on a tr is a lot since we are mostly bassed on crit and damage... and we, perma, dont have a lot of damage to start with.
when i am on my rogue, i notice 2 types of permas. those with lashing and those without it.
those with lashing will actually come in melee-range and thus give u the heads-up with the node color, but that doesn't really help since they run faster and u will never know they r next to u until u get hit by lashing. in typical rogue vs rogue, winner is usually whoever gets lashing off 1st and it doesn't help that they follow it with ITC and then hide off-node in stealth to throw daggers.
permas without lashing r frustrating to find as they almost never stand on the node because they don't need to. they can easily whittle your hp down off-node while u search all around the node hoping to find them. if they have the speed feature, then i might as well give up on chasing them down. even this type of perma can easily shave off half your hp within 10 seconds and kill u with a daily or they can wait a bit longer and kill u purely from at-wills as u can't hit them back
some suggest aoes like path of blades, but that never works from what i can tell. anyone half decent will just dodge roll once and be outside of the aoe radius, wait 5 or so seconds, then come back with at least 1 of your skills on cooldown.
at best, i have only seen another rogue stalemate a perma and he was probably a perma too. outside of that, not a single other class seemed to be able to reliably deal with them as i always see red on our home node if there is a perma on red team. i suppose guardians/gwf's have it easier as they can spam ranged aoe prones and i think they even get a reduced cooldown if they miss.
the best strategy i have ever seen for dealing with permas is to have your entire team completely ignore them and let them have your home node. it might be that i never grouped with someone capable of fighting them off consistently that is not a perma themselves, but teams with permas have a high rate of winning.
this is not to say that i have not beaten them sometimes, but it is so frustrating that i don't even try anymore. i rather distract 3 people at mid all trying to kill a "visible" rogue while my team kills them instead while i survive through deflect and high mobility.
1:you're right, but hey dont they give it free at lvl 21? Yes they do
2: The teleport is a daily power that need to be casted on a enemy witch is on attack rage (and will let you spot him for free... nice for you that didnt know where he was no? The other one will remove you from stealth right away then what is the perma problem if he put himself out of stealth ?!?
3: just what i said... omg thats what you meant.. .well **** NERF GWF THEY CAN ATTACK ANY DIRECTION THEY WANT OMG OP!!!!
Oh wow, I'm actually talking to someone who knows what top end TRs look like
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
A large number of recent posts have been removed.
At the point insults are dished out or I'm right and You are wrong arguments presented it is time to fire a report and walk away. This thread got so consumed by flaming in the last few hours I couldn't even begin to sift the arguments from the flames.
Please remain respectful in your disagreements. It is that simple.
lol... hilarious joke here. Decent cw can take down all but gwf w/o losing 25% hp now. Tenacity makes even the flimsiest classes tougher. Funny how you try to sneak in your flame at hr's in a forum ABOUT TR's.
Kind of hypocritical, when half of your feedback(not counting this comment) has been "this guy's wrong", "that's stupid advice'
That being said, yes permastealth's annoying to deal with. Doesn't mean there isn't a way to deal with them... but it is difficult to. Same can be said for iv sent gwfs. The only true way to fix the issue is to break down tr's, and I don't think that should be done. Now, if new things came out that helped defend against them, as opposed to nuking it out right, I think that might be a better solution.
I have read all ten pages in this thread and a multitude of other threads regarding the PermaStealth. I am going to throw out my two coppers as well.
First, I am a nice squishy CW, I die a LOT, I can accept that. I hardly get any kills, but do get a lot of assists, I can accept that as well. I bought the token and respeced my toon so it could try to compensate for hitting enemies that I can not see. Irritating but done on the learning curve, so acceptable.
Basically, I have seen this issue boil down into two basic sides. Those that think you must be perfect at running the stealth otherwise they die instantly, (which think their class should not be touched). And those that are irritated at never seeing their opponent, (and think they should be nerfed in some way).
A few random points that I would like to mention. I am not gonna bother going back to figure out exactly to who they are aimed at, but if the shoe fits wear it.
I would like to thank those that have provided help to those of us who are squishy against you.
Sadly, I have seen a lot more of the other type of player, which is basically say that anyone who voices an opinion against their class is just crying, and even more sadly this includes the mods of this forum.
A lot of players are complaining that PVP in these circumstance is no fun, which is supposed to be the point of the game, if they are not having fun they quit playing. Yes, YOU may be having fun squishing all of them and laughing about it, but run enough off the game and it folds.
Yes, they should learn how to play at least the class they chose, but saying they should create 5 different toons to learn how to play all of them is a bit of overreaching. Likewise saying they should have to change game settings is a bridge too far as well. However, changing skills is sound advice.
Re the chatter of "other games", I do not care. I do not play those games and I do play Neverwinter. If I want to learn how those games work I will go play them.
Now I will give my opinion regarding being invisible. NW is based on the Forgotten Realms. I have not played the actual RPG, but I have been reading the books since the mid nineties. The laws of magic in the Forgotten Realms state that ANY form of attack immediately dispels invisibility. There are no exceptions for this, including for the gods themselves. (See the avatar quintet for examples of this.) This applies to all types of invisibility including psionics. So if I were making the change it would be that you could remain invisible as long as you want until you attack, at which point it would dispel, I would even give a base damage increase to any attack while invisible. But you would have to stop attacking to go invisible again. Simple and it follows the laws of magic of the realms this game is based on. As I do not play the HR, I am sure other tweaks would need to follow as well, I leave that to the pros to figure out.
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
There appears to be a short window where they lose stealth, but they seem to do two dodges during this time and go right back in to it. Since they are dodges there is nothing we can hit them with during that time. Occasionally I can hit them in the split second at the end of the second dodge before they re-stealth but that doesn't do that much good as they can just go off somewhere unseen and recoup the loss to their stealth meter.
I like truckula's idea: if they attack they should be visible.