Thank you - yet again - for answering my question, gentlemancrush!
I appreciate your dedication to this thread and player inquiries.
During the livestream, mr. gentlemancrush stated that the new bonuses are multiplicative. In my mind, a very (over-)simple example would be
1000 damage vs 25% DR and 20% bonus DR
(1000*0.80)*0.75
600
I logged into the forums to ask this, so quoted for relevance.
To clarify (my point at least), is there any way to reduce the effects of tenacity (example - armor penetration)?
This seems to be a really broken way of calculating tenacity bonuses.
Take for example a TR and a GWF.
TR has 20% DR with 22% tenacity benefit and GWF has 55% DR with 22% Tenacity.
TR = 20*1.22 = 24.4% DR
Versus
GWF = 55% *1.22 = 67.1% DR.
So why does the GWF get 12% added DR for 22% tenacity while a TR only gets 4.4%?
Tenacity is Multiplicative. The reasoning for this is as follows. It acts on the damage you *would have taken* without tenacity which means that every class gets the same real bonus out of tenacity based on the damage they would have taken without it.
Therefore if I have 20% resistance and someone deals 1000 damage, before tenacity I would have taken 800. Then add in 20% tenacity and we have 800 * .8 = 640 incoming damage.
If I had 50% base resistance instead against the same 1000 damage, before tenacity I would have taken 500. Add in the 20% tenacity and the final output damage is 400.
As far as Armor penetration is concerned, it is calculated at the time of dealing damage. And while you cannot actively resist more than the resist cap would allow, additional points are calculated for the purposes of dealing with armor penetration.
So if I would have had 88% resist after buffs, and someone strikes me for 1000 damage with 15% armor penetration I would take
1000 * (1 - (.88 - .15)) = 370 damage.
If I instead had 120% resistance in theory, I would instead take
1000 * (1 - MIN((1.2 - .15),.8)) = 200 damage.
Currently tenacity is NOT affected by armor penetration. It would happen after all of these calculations had happened.
So in the above two cases, with 20% tenacity you would actually take 296 and 160 damage respectively.
Hopefully that helps clear up where the math here is taking place.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Personally I feel that overly defensive builds that stack Deflect more than Defense will the way to go with Tenacity changes because Deflect is currently not mitigatable and more or less works multiplicatively just like Tenacity does. Stacking Deflect and Tenacity with a reasonable amount of defense would still result in the super tanks we have on live right now, because even with Healing Depression, you have sufficient HP gain (because you lose less HP due to Tenacity).
And while TR has 75% deflect severity, GWF (sentinel, not other trees) can achieve pretty crazy amounts of deflect chance with DEX, Bravery and Paragon Feats (Master At Arms, Scale Agility) which grant flat Deflect % (unmodified by Diminishing Returns) in addition to actual Deflect stat from equipment.
The problem being that Sentinel can at the same time still deal a lot of damage, partially due to Iron Vanguard scaling on GWF weapons, and also the mark interactions+Gash.
Non Sentinels lack almost all of the tankiness and only deal marginally more damage.
Since the introduction of the newest pvp sets on the preview i've been logging in every single day at different times and never saw more than 7-8 players online, 22% was not obtainable before the introduction of the new sets that means u participated in pvp since then. I would really like to test everything out on my gwf but perhaps I don't know the correct time to log in. Could somebody please enlighten me when to log in, I can't comment on anything until I check it myself.
Please stay on topic. If you don't have actual play feedback then you need to take the discussion to a different thread. Complaining about changes without having done any testing doesn't provide us with any actionable feedback. Please test it out, and then play enough matches so you get a good solid feel for the changes before making a post in this thread.
So if I would have had 88% resist after buffs, and someone strikes me for 1000 damage with 15% armor penetration I would take
1000 * (1 - (.88 - .15)) = 370 damage.
If I instead had 120% resistance in theory, I would instead take
1000 * (1 - MIN((1.2 - .15),.8)) = 200 damage.
Currently tenacity is NOT affected by armor penetration. It would happen after all of these calculations had happened.
This just might be the most informative post made by a dev since forever. Thank you.
He basically just said that there is no DR limit since you can't stack it significantly above 80 no matter what you do and everyone has arp so it will always be below 80 anyway - but will still negate arp.
A suggestion I can make is to do something rather simple. Make tenacity mitigation additive but such that the higher the existing mitigation is the lower the bonus such that the amount of damage taken from before to after is fixed at 20% - it will do what you want and also let it be subject to armor penetration without hassle.
It wasn't made additive in its current form because all it would do is suppress a large portion of armor penetration for everyone and make GWFs far more tankier.
BTW, gpf doesn't do 3% per stack like it should if it's used on mobs (does 2.3%), does 3% only on dummies which is extremely odd. Almost deliberate some might say.
This seems to be a really broken way of calculating tenacity bonuses.
Take for example a TR and a GWF.
TR has 20% DR with 22% tenacity benefit and GWF has 55% DR with 22% Tenacity.
TR = 20*1.22 = 24.4% DR
Versus
GWF = 55% *1.22 = 67.1% DR.
So why does the GWF get 12% added DR for 22% tenacity while a TR only gets 4.4%?
Shouldnt these numbers more averaged?
You have to consider Healing depression when thinking about tenacity.
First, as i said in another thread, with healing depression:
- GWFs and DCs will be the only classes affected by it 100% of the time. The other classes all have ways to avoid damage and, doing so, heal faster. More on this later.
- GWFs get very specific "collateral" nerfs with healing depression. We have several abilities specifically designed to heal during combat, such as:
Unstoppable temporary HP
Unstoppable recovery feat
Restoring strike
Sentinel Aegis buff to restoring strike
Heroic Duelist set bonus
and all will be cut in half.
- GWFs are the only class with no move to avoid incoming damage and debuffs, which now adds to healing depression
As said above, the other classes all have ways to avoid damage, which means, during a match, they will be under healing depression a lot less. Examples:
CWs can repel-cc-immune teleport. Also, they are ranged and can attack from above ground to avoid melee damage. Even with cc resistance from tenacity, they can avoid being under healing depression for some time, which means they can heal more than a GWF
GFs can block. While they block, they are not being hit, aka not affected by healing depression, which means they can heal at full capacity and recover more than a GWF
HRs: here again, ranged class, with root ability, which is not CC, which means it's not affected by cc resistance from tenacity. Their rooting ability plus the 5 dodges plus stealth, allow them to avoid damage more than a GWF
Perma TRs: here is what, i think, people could realize once these changes make it into live ---> permastealth int TRs are probably the class-build that can avoid damage more, AND they can regenerate a lot. Going stealth, ITC and dodge roll immunity will allow them to avoid being under healing depression most of the time.
That's a clear advantage in a 1v1.
Just theory, since it's near to impossible to find a PvP match on preview...
Please stay on topic. If you don't have actual play feedback then you need to take the discussion to a different thread. Complaining about changes without having done any testing doesn't provide us with any actionable feedback. Please test it out, and then play enough matches so you get a good solid feel for the changes before making a post in this thread.
It's quite...uhm difficult to find a PvP match on preview, unless you go there with guild/ friends. Testing this stuff is not that easy. Some kind of PvP arena to 1v1 could make things easier. Or a training PvP mode to face bots while testing the new stuff.
Right now, going on preview, queue and wait 1 hour ro get into a match, is not a good option...
We can post only if we actually test it in combat, but i think that you would have very, very little feedback then.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited January 2014
Feedback: Tenacity
A very close to Bloodthirsty Devoted Cleric here: finally I was able to do some tests in PvP, the fights have a longer duration now which is good and fun although I saw my dmg decreased (which is already low for a DC and lacks of burst damage skills but that's another topic)... DCs are more tanky than before since the overall damage was reduced. It somehow feels like you are fighting a boss when you are attacking another player, the enemy must be ganked or you wont be able to kill him fast enough. Everyone's HP is going down bit by bit until he's dead except when a TR appears and use the most stupid skill in this game: Shocking Execution. I just saw in a match today how a TR in my team took like 60% of the HP of a Devoted Cleric in the enemy team using this daily so I think what's the point of the tenacity stat if this skill almost one shot kill people? a TR plays like: I will reduce your hp to 50% or so while using permastealth, filling his daily meanwhile and suddenly use SE then dead, wow very skilled person... When you are fighting another class you know you can expect a very fun fight like vs a gwf kiting him, avoiding attacks, etc or against a cw trying to break his combos but fighting a TR is so boring, stupid.
Yes, SE can be dodged but it is not about that, it is about the damage done by this skill. It should work like Ice Knife, good damage and some CC but ignore enemy's defense plus additional damage based on missing HP when devs are trying to avoid burst dmg is nonsense.
This reminds me once I was playing with my low gs TR, like 8k or so in PvP against a very skilled TR, I had only r4 enchants and no armor/weapon enchantments, he had perfect vorpal. I managed to take him down to like 30% before he was able to kill me then I used this Shocking Execution and killed him, I felt so ashamed honestly because without it he would have killed me easily, gear makes a lot of difference but that's irrelevant when you have a one kill button.
So i was on the preview during the shard maintenance today, and gladly quite a lot of people were as well, so i could do some pvping.
I did a few matches and my team won by a 900 gap every time. (premade)
Skill and builds really played a role in these results, since everyone on the preview has the best enchants. This being said, i can't wait for the Elo ranking.
I also did some 1 v 1s with a TR with quite a similiar build as mine, he was using bilethorn and i was using plaguefire/vorpal.
The results of these 1 v 1s are rather dissapointing, soulforged being effected by HD making it pretty much useless, the only viable enchant would be barkshield. I've linked some of the fights we've had below, please look at these and see that burst dmg is nerfed into the ground, and the impact shot nerf is so hard i could compare it to the lurkers nerf.....
Yes, SE can be dodged but it is not about that, it is about the damage done by this skill. It should work like Ice Knife, good damage and some CC but ignore enemy's defense plus additional damage based on missing HP when devs are trying to avoid burst dmg is nonsense.
SE cannot be dodged to my knowledge and ignores any form of damage immunity or resistance. It would not surprise me if it also ignored Tenacity as a result.
Cleric survivalbility increased by a little.
If a cleric heals a target near to him that is in combat, the cleric will be dragged into combat. Is there a way to prevent cleric entering combat every time we heal?
mod note: limit your posting in this thread to constructive feedback based on actual tenacity testing on the preview shard. meaning, you've just played 3+ pvp matches and you come here to give your feedback. replies to other peoples feedback in this thread will be moved. this is not a discussion thread. the intent of this thread is to provide feedback to the developers. if you would like to discuss the tenacity stat and other changes to pvp, please do so in this thread.
do not reply to this moderation note as the discussion of moderation in the open forums is not allowed. instead, send us a PM. thanks.
Duration of our control effects in using Entangling Force and Icy Rays stun, as well as the freeze mechanic via chill, is crippled. Players with easily obtainable 1000+ Tenacity, giving 20% CC Resist, jokingly just up/down when EF'ed.
Damage output in general and burst from EoS (our greatest strength) is crippled. An earlier post mentioned changing the Crit DR to a Crit % DR, which I would be in favor of since the general DR already reduces Crit damage significantly. I don't mind criting less if it means that crits from Icy Rays or Ice Knife are no longer laughable as they currently are.
My conclusion from testing, akin to many others, is that CW are on the shorter end of the Tenacity stick. I would like to see Tenacity affect classes differently stat-wise (ie. 10% base DR for squishy, 5% base for tankier), and more/less Crit DR or CC Resist too. I understand the multiplicative nature of Tenacity already helps squishier classes more than tanks, but a greater balance may be established than what currently exists.
Despite this, I like that pvp is finally getting some attention -- props to the devs!
In addition, my feedback to Crit DR from the melee burst class perspective:
Critical % DR and Crit Damage DR hurts the burst damage dealers the most. Even as the Dev's are on the right track when removing burst damage altogether, it should be taken into account that all burst damaging powers are presently FAIRLY compensated in the length of their cooldown and the chances of actually connecting these attacks. Things like Lashing Blade can be deflected; Ice Knife mitigated; Shocking Execution can be guarded; all of which can be dodged at a very split second widow. Daily powers aside, the heaviest damage dealing encounter in the TR arsenal Lashing Blade suffers from its now unreasonably long cooldown, having its damage crippled.
It's been mentioned once to change the stealth utility of Lashing Blade from a sure critical to a 50% cooldown reduction, eliminating its burst while not rendering it useless.
As it stands now, with base damage resistance and Crit DR in play, the leather-wearing melee damage dealer now deals as only as much (arguably slightly lower) burst damage compared to the heavy armored sentinel GWF.
Furthermore, CC resistance also cripples most utility moves we have including the Dazing Strike (daze), Deft Strike (slow), Impact Shot (stun) and Smoke Bomb (daze).
Where burst damage and control ability are concerned, I can put the TR on the same boat as the CW, if only slightly more privileged because we happen to have a tiny bit more defense.
In addition, my feedback to Crit DR from the melee burst class perspective:
Critical % DR and Crit Damage DR hurts the burst damage dealers the most. Even as the Dev's are on the right track when removing burst damage altogether, it should be taken into account that all burst damaging powers are presently FAIRLY compensated in the length of their cooldown and the chances of actually connecting these attacks. Things like Lashing Blade, Ice Knife, Shocking Execution can be dodged, deflected and guarded (in order). Daily powers aside, the heaviest damage dealing encounter in the TR arsenal Lashing Blade suffers from its now unreasonably long cooldown, having its damage crippled.
It's been mentioned once to change the stealth utility of Lashing Blade from a sure critical to a 50% cooldown reduction, eliminating its burst while not rendering it useless.
As it stands now, with base damage resistance and Crit DR in play, the leather-wearing melee damage dealer now deals as only as much (arguably slightly lower) burst damage compared to the heavy armored sentinel GWF.
Furthermore, CC resistance also cripples most utility moves we have including the Dazing Strike (daze), Deft Strike (slow), Impact Shot (stun) and Smoke Bomb (daze).
Where burst damage and control ability are concerned, I can put the TR on the same boat as the CW, if only slightly more privileged because we happen to have a tiny bit more defense.
Shocking execution cannot be deflected, mitigated, guarded it's not affected by any defences and once the animation started there's only about 0.3sec window when a dodge ,guard(if it is up at that moment) or counter stun is possible once it's past the 0.3sec window it can no longer be dodged and even if you blink or slide to the side. If anything the patch was a buff for Shocking Execution since it is now officially the hardest hitting skill in game, I'm not 200% sure since the TRs I was fighting were pretty geared but the numbers were pretty high so I suspect Shocking Execution ignores even DR from Tenacity.
Feedback:
My experiences form the actual pvp battles do not match rustlords and after playing my GWF I was crit significantly higher by TRs fighting against me than I was able to land on them. I was struggling to crit over 6k while Lashing Blades that were landed on me were ~10k ish (i had 21% DR from tenacity and 39.6% defence). Since Frontline nerf it deals about 4.5k crits on unmarked geared players and has about 17sec CD with 5% recharge speed bonus. At no given time have I felt that my damage is crazy or even good.
My CW on the other hand, using the absolute same enchants in pvp was unable to even put a dent into anything, the damage wasn't as much of a problem as being able to survive long enough to cause enough of that damage. With 30.5k Hp, 20% tenacity and about 30ish% defence using r7s/normals I was unable to fight my opponents at all... My control powers were either failing or had their duration reduced and 99% of my time I was just fighting for my life and not my opponents. I feel like something has to be done about the state of CWs before this goes live, currently I am the weakest target defencewise like before but also lack the control abilities and the burst I once had. I feel like I gained nothing from tenacity. Let me expand, yes I can survive longer than 1 rotation but EVERY other class can survive A LOT longer than 1 rotation, while CWs got +1 eery other class got +5 so its just -4 for me at the end.
Let me also add this: I must say pvp on preview atm feels like TRs vs GWFs with HRs providing some support if they are able to survive, other classes are too insignificant to make any huge impact on the battlefield
Regarding the observed effects of Tenacity on classes in general:
Tenacity easily becomes a buffer to all players with negligible differences between heavy armored and softer classes. In addition, it hurts certain builds more than it benefits them; consider the following:
1. Impossible to Catch on Infiltrator TR is ENOUGH to keep us from being controlled. Tenacity on top of ITC is redundant, its effects minuscule. On another hand, the duration reduction of prone helps. A possible suggestion that would really indicate balance is adding a significant control immunity window to all classes after coming out of prone. This will prevent stunlock, effectively countering the GWF's FLS, Takedown IBS rotation in the process.
2. Control Wizards are reliant on their control power in keeping themselves alive. It's not right to make a cloth wearing caster any tankier than they are now, but don't remove the only defense mechanism they have. If anything, improve their control utility to keep them alive longer against opposition -- I post this challenge to the Devs -- Have control effects be limited at a given interval so it cannot stunlock, but improve it in a way that strengthens the control classes.
3. The debuff on Healing Depression is too long. A stray magic missle, threat rush, split shot or cloud of steel every 10 seconds really hurts the DC. This could also lead to players often disengaging from battle. A lot of running around doesn't benefit Domination mechanics, where contesting is an absolute must to win points. In my estimation, most of the battles are going to be fought off point as you try to prevent an enemy from running away.
What in the world is wrong with Healing Depression and Tenacity?
Healing depression sure does sound like a nice way to nerf Regen savvy builds, but the way its being calculated or implemented now with the Tenacity seems to be bugged, or if intended, a horrible addition.
My guild and I spent 2 hours yesterday on the preview shard with 1 of each class testing and cross testing countless amounts of abilities and how they affect the new system and we have come up with these conclusions unanimously.
A) Healing Depression is way too Drastic, and completely Gimps the DC class ("Might as well Rename it Bard").
Tenacity seems to fluctuate drastically. ("almost as if it dosen't communicate with preexisting DR buffs and Dosent know how to behave with Healing Depression")
C) A lot of pre-existing skills that were working properly are now bugged, and addition, their are bugs that have existed (since beta) that are still unfixed that I'd like to point out as well.
Section A
Healing depression in idea really is a good idea, however 50%, as well as 10 seconds of up-time with the ability to proc under all circumstances is BEYOND drastic.
Our DC (15-17K GS all legendary artifacts 37K HP, 2K + Regen) Was unable to sustain anyone else's Life-points (or her own) under any circumstance due to this unconditional Healing depression. More over, it's affecting all sorts of incoming heals separately
Example: Legendary Emblem Artifact
Tooltip Heal = 869
Active heal when healing depression is in affect 239-269. (50%!?)
Although this might be purely subjective, but everyone on our Guild's PvP team has an average Regen Tick of 1800 On Live Server
With healing depression on, the number seems to be a true 50%, however I feel like the tick rate (typically between 2-3 Seconds) has been increased in time. In fact, there are times I feel as if I have no Regen at all and even more so, our DC can't even sustain my HP (34K with 2k Regen) with Just 1 Person damaging me (even when I have tenacity). It truly is sad to see healers not being able to heal anything, or themselves for that matter, considering they now can only heal themselves for 25% of what they can heal other people.
Proposed Solution
1) Make healing depression a SITUATION affect to encompass certain conditions, i,e:
i) Under Prone, or Control Affects
ii) Has just been revived
iii) Being Targetted by 2 or more Players
2)Reduce the time it lasts (I suggest 5 seconds after one of the above conditions are met)
3)Reduce Severity (Incoming heals reduced by 25% or Lower)
This being said however, Some classes have recieved a 50% damage nerf (Like the TR) so if this healing depression was tone backed to my proposed manner, we'd also need to see some re-scaling on tenacity so that we can create an equilibrium where you won't get out healed by regen because your DPS is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Section B
I have not run the math on this EXTENSIVELY but from what I can see, this stats multiplicative properties might be under the influence from outside sources?
Example:
a 20K hit on live was reduced to 8K on a GWF
and on the same target from the same source, an 11K Hit was reduced to just 9k???
I'll run further testing on this aspect of tenacity, but if these numbers hold true, we need a better explanation from the devs on just how tenacity's Multiplicative properties are truly added up
Proposed Solution
If Broken, make tenacity truly multiplicative, and unaffected by all outside sources, which means it will also serve as a form of armor penetration suppression, and since it would be multiplicative, it won't be an effectively off the deep end change to over all DPS.
Section C
As far as the recent patch goes, one of the most noteable passives that have been affected by a bug is the HR's Lone wolf, From what my testing shows, as soon as tenacity entered the equation, Lone wolf no longer has any affect, consider it broken. This is one of many DR Buffs that many classes have, and I haven't tested each one of these Buffs, but I wouldn't be surprised if these other attributes were also affected
Since-BETA bugs
Alright, come on guys, these things shouldve been fixed already.....
Shard of endless avalanche (on tab) Fades if you are under a control affect (Panderus confirmed this was a bug in-game) with the new prone nerf, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to use the shard on tab rotation if the person can just make it disappear after the 4 second prone time, and if isn't amended, I know a few top cw's who will quit, because you affectively just destroyed their whole build, and rotation.
ITC will not activate and begin its long cooldown if you are hit the same moment of casting, completely blowing up your rotation and more often then not, leading to death
ALSO if your hit under a dazing ability while under ITC, it still interrupts your skill or at will
I am unaware of the exact cause, but there are times where Stealth bugs to the point where it does not refill the bar untill you die
Shocking Exectuion will mark a kill on the scoreboard even if your soulforge procs
Threatening Rush cancelling
(you may think its fixed on the preview shard, but we're still able to do it, on GF and GWF)
DC Chains will glitch under certain circumstances to where they lay on the ground useless and unworking, and you have to go under an extended cooldown before re-use
HR Roots
Tbh, they are bugged atm, (and I know I'll recieve tons of flak for pointing this out) but the class needs the roots to stay the way they are, if I can ITC, or pop unstoppable through roots, HR is done.
GWF bugs
Roar - Even after the intial Roar, its impossible to active a skill with a Medium - LONG animation , it keep interrupting it for an additional few seconds
Takedown (because of its cone range) has an almost impossibly long range, theirs times when I'm completely behind the GWF, but I still take the prone affect from takedown
Now my main is a TR, and I have 1 of each class so I do know of these bugs from first hand experience, however I'm sure there are more out there
And I'm sure there are probably things out there that I havent accounted for with any of my Sections, but off the top of my head, these are the major issues
Alot of what you posted is good information across the board. All of the skill bugs should probably be reposted in the bug section.
But to the meat of what you have proposed is:
Healing depression is too much.
While I agree almost universally, I also know a few DCs who have enjoyed the PTR and look forward to playing. Now will they play a true "healer" roll? No, they are more a debuff tank than anything else with SOME healing support. That seems a little harsh to me.
We all know a major reason healing depression was put into the game was to counter regen PLUS the added DR that classes can get with tenacity. Ontop of that, the added DR makes HP and anything that can heal HP ALOT stronger if left alone.
Well lets consider this, if each person had their DR buffed by a max of around 22% via tenacity AND innate character stat resist in pvp, why is healing depression cutting healing in HALF?
I disagree with Sicarius in the above that it should only be under certain conditions. I honestly think that the 10 seconds is around fair (maybe should be cut a TAD to like 8) but never the less, fair.
I do agree though the depression IS quite a bit higher than is needed. I think the regen nerf of 50% is spot on to be honest, I have always thought the stat was far too good for pvp. Its no surprise almost any pvp player you bump into will have an average of atleast 1500 regen.
ALL of that to say, I think what would be a better system is something like:
Flat out reduce the effectiveness of regen by 25%. If I was healing on LIVE 2000 a tick, I would drop to 1500 a tick. Period.
THEN flat out reduce the "righteousness debuff" on Clerics by Half. Buffing their healing done to themselves on live.
THEN look at healing depression as:
25% reduced healing from all sources (fairly in line with the 22% extra DR players have)
Now that 1500 regen tick is cut by another 25% putting it down to 1125 (56% as effective as before - not quite a 50% nerf)
But now all healing spells (and regen) are cut by 25% instead of a flat 50%.
Since righteousness is halved, now DCs can actually heal themselves and since healing is only reduced by 25%, it makes a DC much more of a necessity than before.
I could see an argument made for a 35% number for healing depression reducing regen even further, or maybe just cutting the base number by 15% first THEN 35% healing depression.
POINT IS THIS: Healing depression seems to be a tad bit overkill. While I do enjoy the regen nerf and think its spot on, the total healing nerf is going to give alot of grief to players.
I certainly think so, particularly in its current state.
As a DC, I certainly don't enjoy the PTR. If I try to play the DC as a healing class (crazy), I just sit on a point and wait to die. I can no longer sustain myself very well and my heals are horribly ineffective.
The most viable build for a DC will now likely become some sort of debuff/DPS build. I didn't roll a healer to not be able to heal. If I wanted to DPS, I would have rolled a DPS class.
I think regen should be nerfed, and DCs should still be able to fulfill the basic role of healing in PvP.
I certainly think so, particularly in its current state.
As a DC, I certainly don't enjoy the PTR. If I try to play the DC as a healing class (crazy), I just sit on a point and wait to die. I can no longer sustain myself very well and my heals are horribly ineffective.
The most viable build for a DC will now likely become some sort of debuff/DPS build. I didn't roll a healer to not be able to heal. If I wanted to DPS, I would have rolled a DPS class.
I think regen should be nerfed, and DCs should still be able to fulfill the basic role of healing in PvP.
Well said... I think its spot on and I hope they listen. I understand that with more DR a healing nerf is almost required... But Its probably double what it needs to be.
I feel like they centered the healing nerf around regen, which seems tailored just right, but then it made heals WAY too weak to be effective at all...
Yes, the regen nerf is needed, At this severity? Maybe. But theres a large amount of people including myself that feel like the tick rate has also been nerfed
I regen 1K on the test shard, thats pretty huge. I honestly Feel like I'm Getting Nothing back from my regen at all because it seems like the tick never comes
Also, i should've touched on this before, with my 3 section post, (which shouldve been 4)
but now CC resist is also Out of control, I watched my DC not even be able to sunburst anyone off the node,
I don't see any point in attaching this stuff to gear when you could achieve the same effect simply by giving it to all players who enter the arena for the duration. It also removes the necessity of coding separate effects for PvE and PvP because tenacity wouldn't exist outside of the arena or PvP areas.
I don't see any point in attaching this stuff to gear when you could achieve the same effect simply by giving it to all players who enter the arena for the duration. It also removes the necessity of coding separate effects for PvE and PvP because tenacity wouldn't exist outside of the arena or PvP areas.
Well they partially did this... About half the max effects of tenacity are already built into each character...
10% for crit/dr/CC that is. with about 22% max of those stats combined with tenacity. So when you really look at what tenacity does add its not a major deal...
I wouldnt be surprised if you saw alot of hybrid builds of people using non-tenacity items and averaged maybe 15-16% instead of shooting for 22%
After logging in to check out the new armor, really nice to see multiple, the thing that made me sad were the stats.
The 4/4 bonus is the same on everything, and the profound 4/4 has the previous stalker bonus.
Nothing wrong with the 4/4 bonus, however, the fact that there are no sets with Hitpoints or Regen in the profound catogory is astounding, also the fact that the Hitpoints DECREASED on the grim sets, which is just weird? Why should we hand in stats to gain tenacity benefits...
Also power is completely useless for pvp TR's, we rely a lot on arp over power as well, 1.5k power is enough to deal true dmg.
The leaving system is great however! This however forces you guys to create new queue options so premades can still queue up against eachother without gaining a 30 min penalty.
It's awesome to see more Arp making it into the sets (Thaum), potentially allowing us to recuperate on lost burst/damage output caused by Tenacity. However, according to the tests of two different players, many CW abilities still do not benefit from Arp (bugged). Their posts in the bug report forum are: (big thanks to these guys)
If these issues with Arp are fixed, I think the damage increase may help with balancing the major damage loss CWs are seeing with Tenacity. Otherwise, Arp is currently somewhat useless for CWs as a lot of useful pvp powers are on these lists.
Tenacity should not be ignored by Shocking Execution
1. The way I see it, Tenacity is a means to increase survivability of all characters/builds proportionately by a certain amount.
2. Letting certain powers simply ignore this, goes directly against the prime objective of its implementation in the first place
3. It only fuels imbalance toward certain builds and Paragon path choices. Who is going to choose a WK build when the MI, an already blessed with so many crutches in PvP, now also has a Daily that is not only undodgeable, nor deflect/defensable, kills outright or deals massive damage, and on top even ignores Tenacity?
4. Tenacity should simply be a PvP spec/trait that is solid on all characters, IMO.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The stat allocation is terrible for TR's, if their isn't going to be a Profound form of Skulker, I can kiss my survivability and my damage good bye.
Its not much of a difference and you gained tenacity which will help. The total loss of stats hits everyone across the board and I have found that for CW/TR/Gf/GWF the T2 gear is better than the crappy T2.5 gear they rolled out.
GF - T2 gear offers better stats, T2.5 replaced power with recovery on tactician so you deal no damage. The protector set has now offensive ability so you also hit like a wet noodle and the Conq set has no deflect and no HP so thats a bust as well versus the T2 Indom Grim Set which has HP/power/defense/deflect
GWF - T2 2pc has +1800 HP so stacking 2 different 2 pc provides better stats than any combo of T2.5
CW - The T2.5 ARP actually doesnt affect most CW skills so the next best bet is Crit/Power. The only set that offers Hp/Power stacking is the T2 set, if you wanna give up HP you can get the T2.5 for marginal benefit.
Tr - as you stated a loss of stats from the T2 Skulker Grim set
Id imagine alot of other classes are the same way but have only looked at these two....
They need to revamp the 2pc set bonuses OR make ANY armor piece of the same tier count towards the same set bonus. Then you can mix and match from all the sets and get the ultimate end set bonus so you dont have to give up too much to get it....
Or they need to just revamp the stats to more beneficial stats, like instead of 2pc GF gear being defense, give us deflect instead (like the timeless set does with the same stats as the Conq GF PVP gear)
I also think all PVP sets should have HP since it is PVP sets.... Even its just a marginal amount still better that way IMO.
Comments
This seems to be a really broken way of calculating tenacity bonuses.
Take for example a TR and a GWF.
TR has 20% DR with 22% tenacity benefit and GWF has 55% DR with 22% Tenacity.
TR = 20*1.22 = 24.4% DR
Versus
GWF = 55% *1.22 = 67.1% DR.
So why does the GWF get 12% added DR for 22% tenacity while a TR only gets 4.4%?
Shouldnt these numbers more averaged?
Tenacity is Multiplicative. The reasoning for this is as follows. It acts on the damage you *would have taken* without tenacity which means that every class gets the same real bonus out of tenacity based on the damage they would have taken without it.
Therefore if I have 20% resistance and someone deals 1000 damage, before tenacity I would have taken 800. Then add in 20% tenacity and we have 800 * .8 = 640 incoming damage.
If I had 50% base resistance instead against the same 1000 damage, before tenacity I would have taken 500. Add in the 20% tenacity and the final output damage is 400.
As far as Armor penetration is concerned, it is calculated at the time of dealing damage. And while you cannot actively resist more than the resist cap would allow, additional points are calculated for the purposes of dealing with armor penetration.
So if I would have had 88% resist after buffs, and someone strikes me for 1000 damage with 15% armor penetration I would take
1000 * (1 - (.88 - .15)) = 370 damage.
If I instead had 120% resistance in theory, I would instead take
1000 * (1 - MIN((1.2 - .15),.8)) = 200 damage.
Currently tenacity is NOT affected by armor penetration. It would happen after all of these calculations had happened.
So in the above two cases, with 20% tenacity you would actually take 296 and 160 damage respectively.
Hopefully that helps clear up where the math here is taking place.
And while TR has 75% deflect severity, GWF (sentinel, not other trees) can achieve pretty crazy amounts of deflect chance with DEX, Bravery and Paragon Feats (Master At Arms, Scale Agility) which grant flat Deflect % (unmodified by Diminishing Returns) in addition to actual Deflect stat from equipment.
The problem being that Sentinel can at the same time still deal a lot of damage, partially due to Iron Vanguard scaling on GWF weapons, and also the mark interactions+Gash.
Non Sentinels lack almost all of the tankiness and only deal marginally more damage.
A 55% Sent with 22% Tenacity:
1k dmg *.45 = 450 dmg then 22% of that = 351 damage (effectively a 64.9% DR - a buff of almost 10% DR)
A CW with 25% DR and 22% Tenacity=
1k dmg * .75 = 750 *.78 = 585 dmg (effectively a 41.5% DR - a buff of 16.5% DR.
So it helps out lower DR targets MORE than higher DR targets, I like that.
With ARP.
55% Sent with 22% Tenacity gets hit with 1kdmg @ 25% ARP:
1k * .7 = 700 *.78 = 546 (effectively a 45.5% DR) Meaning the 22% of tenacity really added 15.5% DR with ARP added.
25% CW with 22% Tenacity 1k dmg @ 25% arp:
1k *.78= 780 dmg... Effectively a 22% DR so the tenacity added 22% DR.
Again seems like it highly ads mroe benefit to lower DR targets on a relative value basis. Nice JOb!!! (sincerely)
This just might be the most informative post made by a dev since forever. Thank you.
He basically just said that there is no DR limit since you can't stack it significantly above 80 no matter what you do and everyone has arp so it will always be below 80 anyway - but will still negate arp.
A suggestion I can make is to do something rather simple. Make tenacity mitigation additive but such that the higher the existing mitigation is the lower the bonus such that the amount of damage taken from before to after is fixed at 20% - it will do what you want and also let it be subject to armor penetration without hassle.
It wasn't made additive in its current form because all it would do is suppress a large portion of armor penetration for everyone and make GWFs far more tankier.
BTW, gpf doesn't do 3% per stack like it should if it's used on mobs (does 2.3%), does 3% only on dummies which is extremely odd. Almost deliberate some might say.
You have to consider Healing depression when thinking about tenacity.
First, as i said in another thread, with healing depression:
- GWFs and DCs will be the only classes affected by it 100% of the time. The other classes all have ways to avoid damage and, doing so, heal faster. More on this later.
- GWFs get very specific "collateral" nerfs with healing depression. We have several abilities specifically designed to heal during combat, such as:
Unstoppable temporary HP
Unstoppable recovery feat
Restoring strike
Sentinel Aegis buff to restoring strike
Heroic Duelist set bonus
and all will be cut in half.
- GWFs are the only class with no move to avoid incoming damage and debuffs, which now adds to healing depression
As said above, the other classes all have ways to avoid damage, which means, during a match, they will be under healing depression a lot less. Examples:
CWs can repel-cc-immune teleport. Also, they are ranged and can attack from above ground to avoid melee damage. Even with cc resistance from tenacity, they can avoid being under healing depression for some time, which means they can heal more than a GWF
GFs can block. While they block, they are not being hit, aka not affected by healing depression, which means they can heal at full capacity and recover more than a GWF
HRs: here again, ranged class, with root ability, which is not CC, which means it's not affected by cc resistance from tenacity. Their rooting ability plus the 5 dodges plus stealth, allow them to avoid damage more than a GWF
Perma TRs: here is what, i think, people could realize once these changes make it into live ---> permastealth int TRs are probably the class-build that can avoid damage more, AND they can regenerate a lot. Going stealth, ITC and dodge roll immunity will allow them to avoid being under healing depression most of the time.
That's a clear advantage in a 1v1.
Just theory, since it's near to impossible to find a PvP match on preview...
It's quite...uhm difficult to find a PvP match on preview, unless you go there with guild/ friends. Testing this stuff is not that easy. Some kind of PvP arena to 1v1 could make things easier. Or a training PvP mode to face bots while testing the new stuff.
Right now, going on preview, queue and wait 1 hour ro get into a match, is not a good option...
We can post only if we actually test it in combat, but i think that you would have very, very little feedback then.
A very close to Bloodthirsty Devoted Cleric here: finally I was able to do some tests in PvP, the fights have a longer duration now which is good and fun although I saw my dmg decreased (which is already low for a DC and lacks of burst damage skills but that's another topic)... DCs are more tanky than before since the overall damage was reduced. It somehow feels like you are fighting a boss when you are attacking another player, the enemy must be ganked or you wont be able to kill him fast enough. Everyone's HP is going down bit by bit until he's dead except when a TR appears and use the most stupid skill in this game: Shocking Execution. I just saw in a match today how a TR in my team took like 60% of the HP of a Devoted Cleric in the enemy team using this daily so I think what's the point of the tenacity stat if this skill almost one shot kill people? a TR plays like: I will reduce your hp to 50% or so while using permastealth, filling his daily meanwhile and suddenly use SE then dead, wow very skilled person... When you are fighting another class you know you can expect a very fun fight like vs a gwf kiting him, avoiding attacks, etc or against a cw trying to break his combos but fighting a TR is so boring, stupid.
Yes, SE can be dodged but it is not about that, it is about the damage done by this skill. It should work like Ice Knife, good damage and some CC but ignore enemy's defense plus additional damage based on missing HP when devs are trying to avoid burst dmg is nonsense.
This reminds me once I was playing with my low gs TR, like 8k or so in PvP against a very skilled TR, I had only r4 enchants and no armor/weapon enchantments, he had perfect vorpal. I managed to take him down to like 30% before he was able to kill me then I used this Shocking Execution and killed him, I felt so ashamed honestly because without it he would have killed me easily, gear makes a lot of difference but that's irrelevant when you have a one kill button.
I did a few matches and my team won by a 900 gap every time. (premade)
Skill and builds really played a role in these results, since everyone on the preview has the best enchants. This being said, i can't wait for the Elo ranking.
I also did some 1 v 1s with a TR with quite a similiar build as mine, he was using bilethorn and i was using plaguefire/vorpal.
The results of these 1 v 1s are rather dissapointing, soulforged being effected by HD making it pretty much useless, the only viable enchant would be barkshield. I've linked some of the fights we've had below, please look at these and see that burst dmg is nerfed into the ground, and the impact shot nerf is so hard i could compare it to the lurkers nerf.....
Vorpal fights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLMMDy43QoM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMo2O7F3pEg
Plaguefire fights:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz3g0xFBN8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3AAcH8aOSM
~Snow
SE cannot be dodged to my knowledge and ignores any form of damage immunity or resistance. It would not surprise me if it also ignored Tenacity as a result.
If a cleric heals a target near to him that is in combat, the cleric will be dragged into combat. Is there a way to prevent cleric entering combat every time we heal?
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Duration of our control effects in using Entangling Force and Icy Rays stun, as well as the freeze mechanic via chill, is crippled. Players with easily obtainable 1000+ Tenacity, giving 20% CC Resist, jokingly just up/down when EF'ed.
Damage output in general and burst from EoS (our greatest strength) is crippled. An earlier post mentioned changing the Crit DR to a Crit % DR, which I would be in favor of since the general DR already reduces Crit damage significantly. I don't mind criting less if it means that crits from Icy Rays or Ice Knife are no longer laughable as they currently are.
My conclusion from testing, akin to many others, is that CW are on the shorter end of the Tenacity stick. I would like to see Tenacity affect classes differently stat-wise (ie. 10% base DR for squishy, 5% base for tankier), and more/less Crit DR or CC Resist too. I understand the multiplicative nature of Tenacity already helps squishier classes more than tanks, but a greater balance may be established than what currently exists.
Despite this, I like that pvp is finally getting some attention -- props to the devs!
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In addition, my feedback to Crit DR from the melee burst class perspective:
Critical % DR and Crit Damage DR hurts the burst damage dealers the most. Even as the Dev's are on the right track when removing burst damage altogether, it should be taken into account that all burst damaging powers are presently FAIRLY compensated in the length of their cooldown and the chances of actually connecting these attacks. Things like Lashing Blade can be deflected; Ice Knife mitigated; Shocking Execution can be guarded; all of which can be dodged at a very split second widow. Daily powers aside, the heaviest damage dealing encounter in the TR arsenal Lashing Blade suffers from its now unreasonably long cooldown, having its damage crippled.
It's been mentioned once to change the stealth utility of Lashing Blade from a sure critical to a 50% cooldown reduction, eliminating its burst while not rendering it useless.
As it stands now, with base damage resistance and Crit DR in play, the leather-wearing melee damage dealer now deals as only as much (arguably slightly lower) burst damage compared to the heavy armored sentinel GWF.
Furthermore, CC resistance also cripples most utility moves we have including the Dazing Strike (daze), Deft Strike (slow), Impact Shot (stun) and Smoke Bomb (daze).
Where burst damage and control ability are concerned, I can put the TR on the same boat as the CW, if only slightly more privileged because we happen to have a tiny bit more defense.
Feedback:
My experiences form the actual pvp battles do not match rustlords and after playing my GWF I was crit significantly higher by TRs fighting against me than I was able to land on them. I was struggling to crit over 6k while Lashing Blades that were landed on me were ~10k ish (i had 21% DR from tenacity and 39.6% defence). Since Frontline nerf it deals about 4.5k crits on unmarked geared players and has about 17sec CD with 5% recharge speed bonus. At no given time have I felt that my damage is crazy or even good.
My CW on the other hand, using the absolute same enchants in pvp was unable to even put a dent into anything, the damage wasn't as much of a problem as being able to survive long enough to cause enough of that damage. With 30.5k Hp, 20% tenacity and about 30ish% defence using r7s/normals I was unable to fight my opponents at all... My control powers were either failing or had their duration reduced and 99% of my time I was just fighting for my life and not my opponents. I feel like something has to be done about the state of CWs before this goes live, currently I am the weakest target defencewise like before but also lack the control abilities and the burst I once had. I feel like I gained nothing from tenacity. Let me expand, yes I can survive longer than 1 rotation but EVERY other class can survive A LOT longer than 1 rotation, while CWs got +1 eery other class got +5 so its just -4 for me at the end.
Let me also add this: I must say pvp on preview atm feels like TRs vs GWFs with HRs providing some support if they are able to survive, other classes are too insignificant to make any huge impact on the battlefield
Tenacity easily becomes a buffer to all players with negligible differences between heavy armored and softer classes. In addition, it hurts certain builds more than it benefits them; consider the following:
1. Impossible to Catch on Infiltrator TR is ENOUGH to keep us from being controlled. Tenacity on top of ITC is redundant, its effects minuscule. On another hand, the duration reduction of prone helps. A possible suggestion that would really indicate balance is adding a significant control immunity window to all classes after coming out of prone. This will prevent stunlock, effectively countering the GWF's FLS, Takedown IBS rotation in the process.
2. Control Wizards are reliant on their control power in keeping themselves alive. It's not right to make a cloth wearing caster any tankier than they are now, but don't remove the only defense mechanism they have. If anything, improve their control utility to keep them alive longer against opposition -- I post this challenge to the Devs -- Have control effects be limited at a given interval so it cannot stunlock, but improve it in a way that strengthens the control classes.
3. The debuff on Healing Depression is too long. A stray magic missle, threat rush, split shot or cloud of steel every 10 seconds really hurts the DC. This could also lead to players often disengaging from battle. A lot of running around doesn't benefit Domination mechanics, where contesting is an absolute must to win points. In my estimation, most of the battles are going to be fought off point as you try to prevent an enemy from running away.
Healing depression sure does sound like a nice way to nerf Regen savvy builds, but the way its being calculated or implemented now with the Tenacity seems to be bugged, or if intended, a horrible addition.
My guild and I spent 2 hours yesterday on the preview shard with 1 of each class testing and cross testing countless amounts of abilities and how they affect the new system and we have come up with these conclusions unanimously.
A) Healing Depression is way too Drastic, and completely Gimps the DC class ("Might as well Rename it Bard").
C) A lot of pre-existing skills that were working properly are now bugged, and addition, their are bugs that have existed (since beta) that are still unfixed that I'd like to point out as well.
Section A
Healing depression in idea really is a good idea, however 50%, as well as 10 seconds of up-time with the ability to proc under all circumstances is BEYOND drastic.
Our DC (15-17K GS all legendary artifacts 37K HP, 2K + Regen) Was unable to sustain anyone else's Life-points (or her own) under any circumstance due to this unconditional Healing depression. More over, it's affecting all sorts of incoming heals separately
Example: Legendary Emblem Artifact
Tooltip Heal = 869
Active heal when healing depression is in affect 239-269. (50%!?)
Although this might be purely subjective, but everyone on our Guild's PvP team has an average Regen Tick of 1800 On Live Server
With healing depression on, the number seems to be a true 50%, however I feel like the tick rate (typically between 2-3 Seconds) has been increased in time. In fact, there are times I feel as if I have no Regen at all and even more so, our DC can't even sustain my HP (34K with 2k Regen) with Just 1 Person damaging me (even when I have tenacity). It truly is sad to see healers not being able to heal anything, or themselves for that matter, considering they now can only heal themselves for 25% of what they can heal other people.
Proposed Solution
1) Make healing depression a SITUATION affect to encompass certain conditions, i,e:
i) Under Prone, or Control Affects
ii) Has just been revived
iii) Being Targetted by 2 or more Players
2)Reduce the time it lasts (I suggest 5 seconds after one of the above conditions are met)
3)Reduce Severity (Incoming heals reduced by 25% or Lower)
This being said however, Some classes have recieved a 50% damage nerf (Like the TR) so if this healing depression was tone backed to my proposed manner, we'd also need to see some re-scaling on tenacity so that we can create an equilibrium where you won't get out healed by regen because your DPS is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
Section B
I have not run the math on this EXTENSIVELY but from what I can see, this stats multiplicative properties might be under the influence from outside sources?
Example:
a 20K hit on live was reduced to 8K on a GWF
and on the same target from the same source, an 11K Hit was reduced to just 9k???
I'll run further testing on this aspect of tenacity, but if these numbers hold true, we need a better explanation from the devs on just how tenacity's Multiplicative properties are truly added up
Proposed Solution
If Broken, make tenacity truly multiplicative, and unaffected by all outside sources, which means it will also serve as a form of armor penetration suppression, and since it would be multiplicative, it won't be an effectively off the deep end change to over all DPS.
Section C
As far as the recent patch goes, one of the most noteable passives that have been affected by a bug is the HR's Lone wolf, From what my testing shows, as soon as tenacity entered the equation, Lone wolf no longer has any affect, consider it broken. This is one of many DR Buffs that many classes have, and I haven't tested each one of these Buffs, but I wouldn't be surprised if these other attributes were also affected
Since-BETA bugs
Alright, come on guys, these things shouldve been fixed already.....
Shard of endless avalanche (on tab) Fades if you are under a control affect (Panderus confirmed this was a bug in-game) with the new prone nerf, it will be IMPOSSIBLE to use the shard on tab rotation if the person can just make it disappear after the 4 second prone time, and if isn't amended, I know a few top cw's who will quit, because you affectively just destroyed their whole build, and rotation.
Icy rays Cooldown counter rarely displays correctly
ITC and (yes it still exists) Stealth bug
ITC will not activate and begin its long cooldown if you are hit the same moment of casting, completely blowing up your rotation and more often then not, leading to death
ALSO if your hit under a dazing ability while under ITC, it still interrupts your skill or at will
I am unaware of the exact cause, but there are times where Stealth bugs to the point where it does not refill the bar untill you die
Shocking Exectuion will mark a kill on the scoreboard even if your soulforge procs
Threatening Rush cancelling
(you may think its fixed on the preview shard, but we're still able to do it, on GF and GWF)
DC Chains will glitch under certain circumstances to where they lay on the ground useless and unworking, and you have to go under an extended cooldown before re-use
HR Roots
Tbh, they are bugged atm, (and I know I'll recieve tons of flak for pointing this out) but the class needs the roots to stay the way they are, if I can ITC, or pop unstoppable through roots, HR is done.
GWF bugs
Roar - Even after the intial Roar, its impossible to active a skill with a Medium - LONG animation , it keep interrupting it for an additional few seconds
Such skills include
Duelist Flurry, Shadow Strike, Boulder, CHill Strike,
Takedown (because of its cone range) has an almost impossibly long range, theirs times when I'm completely behind the GWF, but I still take the prone affect from takedown
Now my main is a TR, and I have 1 of each class so I do know of these bugs from first hand experience, however I'm sure there are more out there
And I'm sure there are probably things out there that I havent accounted for with any of my Sections, but off the top of my head, these are the major issues
Sicarius@Dersidius
Chocolate Stand
Alot of what you posted is good information across the board. All of the skill bugs should probably be reposted in the bug section.
But to the meat of what you have proposed is:
Healing depression is too much.
While I agree almost universally, I also know a few DCs who have enjoyed the PTR and look forward to playing. Now will they play a true "healer" roll? No, they are more a debuff tank than anything else with SOME healing support. That seems a little harsh to me.
We all know a major reason healing depression was put into the game was to counter regen PLUS the added DR that classes can get with tenacity. Ontop of that, the added DR makes HP and anything that can heal HP ALOT stronger if left alone.
Well lets consider this, if each person had their DR buffed by a max of around 22% via tenacity AND innate character stat resist in pvp, why is healing depression cutting healing in HALF?
I disagree with Sicarius in the above that it should only be under certain conditions. I honestly think that the 10 seconds is around fair (maybe should be cut a TAD to like 8) but never the less, fair.
I do agree though the depression IS quite a bit higher than is needed. I think the regen nerf of 50% is spot on to be honest, I have always thought the stat was far too good for pvp. Its no surprise almost any pvp player you bump into will have an average of atleast 1500 regen.
ALL of that to say, I think what would be a better system is something like:
Flat out reduce the effectiveness of regen by 25%. If I was healing on LIVE 2000 a tick, I would drop to 1500 a tick. Period.
THEN flat out reduce the "righteousness debuff" on Clerics by Half. Buffing their healing done to themselves on live.
THEN look at healing depression as:
25% reduced healing from all sources (fairly in line with the 22% extra DR players have)
Now that 1500 regen tick is cut by another 25% putting it down to 1125 (56% as effective as before - not quite a 50% nerf)
But now all healing spells (and regen) are cut by 25% instead of a flat 50%.
Since righteousness is halved, now DCs can actually heal themselves and since healing is only reduced by 25%, it makes a DC much more of a necessity than before.
I could see an argument made for a 35% number for healing depression reducing regen even further, or maybe just cutting the base number by 15% first THEN 35% healing depression.
POINT IS THIS: Healing depression seems to be a tad bit overkill. While I do enjoy the regen nerf and think its spot on, the total healing nerf is going to give alot of grief to players.
I certainly think so, particularly in its current state.
As a DC, I certainly don't enjoy the PTR. If I try to play the DC as a healing class (crazy), I just sit on a point and wait to die. I can no longer sustain myself very well and my heals are horribly ineffective.
The most viable build for a DC will now likely become some sort of debuff/DPS build. I didn't roll a healer to not be able to heal. If I wanted to DPS, I would have rolled a DPS class.
I think regen should be nerfed, and DCs should still be able to fulfill the basic role of healing in PvP.
Well said... I think its spot on and I hope they listen. I understand that with more DR a healing nerf is almost required... But Its probably double what it needs to be.
I feel like they centered the healing nerf around regen, which seems tailored just right, but then it made heals WAY too weak to be effective at all...
I regen 1K on the test shard, thats pretty huge. I honestly Feel like I'm Getting Nothing back from my regen at all because it seems like the tick never comes
Also, i should've touched on this before, with my 3 section post, (which shouldve been 4)
but now CC resist is also Out of control, I watched my DC not even be able to sunburst anyone off the node,
Hello another useless skill
I don't see any point in attaching this stuff to gear when you could achieve the same effect simply by giving it to all players who enter the arena for the duration. It also removes the necessity of coding separate effects for PvE and PvP because tenacity wouldn't exist outside of the arena or PvP areas.
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Well they partially did this... About half the max effects of tenacity are already built into each character...
10% for crit/dr/CC that is. with about 22% max of those stats combined with tenacity. So when you really look at what tenacity does add its not a major deal...
I wouldnt be surprised if you saw alot of hybrid builds of people using non-tenacity items and averaged maybe 15-16% instead of shooting for 22%
The stat allocation is terrible for TR's, if their isn't going to be a Profound form of Skulker, I can kiss my survivability and my damage good bye.
After logging in to check out the new armor, really nice to see multiple, the thing that made me sad were the stats.
The 4/4 bonus is the same on everything, and the profound 4/4 has the previous stalker bonus.
Nothing wrong with the 4/4 bonus, however, the fact that there are no sets with Hitpoints or Regen in the profound catogory is astounding, also the fact that the Hitpoints DECREASED on the grim sets, which is just weird? Why should we hand in stats to gain tenacity benefits...
Also power is completely useless for pvp TR's, we rely a lot on arp over power as well, 1.5k power is enough to deal true dmg.
The leaving system is great however! This however forces you guys to create new queue options so premades can still queue up against eachother without gaining a 30 min penalty.
Thats all... T_T
It's awesome to see more Arp making it into the sets (Thaum), potentially allowing us to recuperate on lost burst/damage output caused by Tenacity. However, according to the tests of two different players, many CW abilities still do not benefit from Arp (bugged). Their posts in the bug report forum are: (big thanks to these guys)
Stoxforum1's Arp Test
Fondlez's Arp Test
If these issues with Arp are fixed, I think the damage increase may help with balancing the major damage loss CWs are seeing with Tenacity. Otherwise, Arp is currently somewhat useless for CWs as a lot of useful pvp powers are on these lists.
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Tenacity should not be ignored by Shocking Execution
1. The way I see it, Tenacity is a means to increase survivability of all characters/builds proportionately by a certain amount.
2. Letting certain powers simply ignore this, goes directly against the prime objective of its implementation in the first place
3. It only fuels imbalance toward certain builds and Paragon path choices. Who is going to choose a WK build when the MI, an already blessed with so many crutches in PvP, now also has a Daily that is not only undodgeable, nor deflect/defensable, kills outright or deals massive damage, and on top even ignores Tenacity?
4. Tenacity should simply be a PvP spec/trait that is solid on all characters, IMO.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Its not much of a difference and you gained tenacity which will help. The total loss of stats hits everyone across the board and I have found that for CW/TR/Gf/GWF the T2 gear is better than the crappy T2.5 gear they rolled out.
GF - T2 gear offers better stats, T2.5 replaced power with recovery on tactician so you deal no damage. The protector set has now offensive ability so you also hit like a wet noodle and the Conq set has no deflect and no HP so thats a bust as well versus the T2 Indom Grim Set which has HP/power/defense/deflect
GWF - T2 2pc has +1800 HP so stacking 2 different 2 pc provides better stats than any combo of T2.5
CW - The T2.5 ARP actually doesnt affect most CW skills so the next best bet is Crit/Power. The only set that offers Hp/Power stacking is the T2 set, if you wanna give up HP you can get the T2.5 for marginal benefit.
Tr - as you stated a loss of stats from the T2 Skulker Grim set
Id imagine alot of other classes are the same way but have only looked at these two....
They need to revamp the 2pc set bonuses OR make ANY armor piece of the same tier count towards the same set bonus. Then you can mix and match from all the sets and get the ultimate end set bonus so you dont have to give up too much to get it....
Or they need to just revamp the stats to more beneficial stats, like instead of 2pc GF gear being defense, give us deflect instead (like the timeless set does with the same stats as the Conq GF PVP gear)
I also think all PVP sets should have HP since it is PVP sets.... Even its just a marginal amount still better that way IMO.