Control bonus also doesn't help with resists, which is the big problem right now. If anything on these sets it needs to actually make your CCs hit more often, not increase duration by a very miniscule amount. i.e. a 2 second cc with 5% bonus control will make it 2.1 seconds. Is that even noticeable? Not really when say a cleric can have the new built in cc resist, resist from tenacity, resist from halfing, and resist from the wisdom stat. As it stands right now vs a DC half of your controls will be resisted. And don't get me started on GWF who has the built in, tenacity, halfling, some from attributes, and then unstoppable on top of that...
Control bonus also doesn't help with resists, which is the big problem right now. If anything on these sets it needs to actually make your CCs hit more often, not increase duration by a very miniscule amount. i.e. a 2 second cc with 5% bonus control will make it 2.1 seconds. Is that even noticeable? Not really when say a cleric can have the new built in cc resist, resist from tenacity, resist from halfing, and resist from the wisdom stat. As it stands right now vs a DC half of your controls will be resisted. And don't get me started on GWF who has the built in, tenacity, halfling, some from attributes, and then unstoppable on top of that...
And this is my issue exactly with the BS they've given CONTROL wizards. They can't control <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> anymore! And its all for the sake of the poor players that complain after 1 PvP match without understanding how the top level of this game plays
7K GS Players are walking around and complaining that they can't kill a DC
Enter DC nerf (Now a Top Tier DC couldn't Heal Wolverine -who also has his regen gimped-)
7K GS players are complaining that they die to fast
Enter Damage nerf AND Defense buff!? way to double dip (Now a Top Tier TR couldn't cut paper with a pair of scissors)
7K GS players (who average 19k to 22K HP!? Lol.) are complaining that they're getting CC'd to death because CC is too long!? PuG, I'm surprised the non-existent PvP falling damage dosent kill you first. (Now a Top Tier Control Wizard couldn't control a Chihuahua on a leash)
I mean MAYBE prones were a bit excessive, but the only thing I truly ever worried about was the 17K IBS that typically came after it
GWF needed a slight damage nerf.
Or just forget about that in General
Start making this game for the truly geared and educated people who play it
Give me ELO, Give me new maps, Give me New Game types, Or give me a new game.
How many more posts do we need criticizing these changes before our voices are heard?
Some aspects of PvP needed to be changed, but none in the manner being introduced by CC resist, healing depression, etc. (In fact, all that really needed to be done was reduce regen, reduce GWF DPS, introduce matchmaking, and fix some class bugs.)
How many more posts do we need criticizing these changes before our voices are heard?
Some aspects of PvP needed to be changed, but none in the manner being introduced by CC resist, healing depression, etc. (In fact, all that really needed to be done was reduce regen, reduce GWF DPS, introduce matchmaking, and fix some class bugs.)
lets see what changes they made to the gear tomorrow and play with the DEVs ourselves, then you can voice these to them on the PTR tomorrow. I know ill be there!
And this is my issue exactly with the BS they've given CONTROL wizards. They can't control <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> anymore! And its all for the sake of the poor players that complain after 1 PvP match without understanding how the top level of this game plays
7K GS Players are walking around and complaining that they can't kill a DC
Enter DC nerf (Now a Top Tier DC couldn't Heal Wolverine -who also has his regen gimped-)
7K GS players are complaining that they die to fast
Enter Damage nerf AND Defense buff!? way to double dip (Now a Top Tier TR couldn't cut paper with a pair of scissors)
7K GS players (who average 19k to 22K HP!? Lol.) are complaining that they're getting CC'd to death because CC is too long!? PuG, I'm surprised the non-existent PvP falling damage dosent kill you first. (Now a Top Tier Control Wizard couldn't control a Chihuahua on a leash)
I mean MAYBE prones were a bit excessive, but the only thing I truly ever worried about was the 17K IBS that typically came after it
Sentinal GWF needed a slight damage nerf.
Or just forget about that in General
Start making this game for the truly geared and educated people who play it
Give me ELO, Give me new maps, Give me New Game types, Or give me a new game.
This right here! Forget all that other <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they are introducing. All we need is that RIGHT there.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
No offense, but the truly geared and educated (?!?) people who play the game might be 0.0001% of the game population. The community of the guys who PvP is so small, basically it's like a bigger family of sorts, mostly anybody knows anybody else, I'd say it's around 50-00 people, with 100 being VERY optimistic.
And you want the PvP in the game to cater to these 100 guys. Oh well.
This being said, I don't like how Tenacity works (for now), although I loved resilience in WoW.
Some differences with the 2 implementations:
- in WoW my frost mage still had LOTS of CC
- in WoW my frost mage still had LOTS of burst
- in WoW my frost mage could solo ANY class, any spec, depending on gear&skill. If the opponent was more skilled and better geared I lost. I didn't lose however cause the opponent was class X or Y.
- in WoW my frost mage had decent survivability, and quite a few panic mechanics such as invisibility, ice block, ice barrier, mirror images
Now let's take the Tenacity Neverwinter:
- my CW has close to no CC (anymore)
- my CW has close to no burst (anymore)
- my CW has no escape/panic mechanic outside of 3 very limited dodges, so very little survivability
- my CW cannot solo any class, because in Neverwinter, some classes are better than others
Conclusion?
Tenacity as a mechanic is not nearly done, and as it is now, it's badly implemented.
What I would like to see?
More developer communication with us, here in these topics. I know you guys are busy working, but feedback works both ways.
No offense, but the truly geared and educated (?!?) people who play the game might be 0.0001% of the game population. The community of the guys who PvP is so small, basically it's like a bigger family of sorts, mostly anybody knows anybody else, I'd say it's around 50-00 people, with 100 being VERY optimistic.
.[/B]
What on earth? Now that is very very much false. Out of all the pvp matches I've played, its a whole lot more than such a small percentage. basing on your analysis you're concluding that based off people with really high gearscores. By truly geared and educated, not talking about trying to have a uber high gearscore. merely gear that matches thier playstyle and knowing how to use it as well as thier class.
Everything else you said more or less I agree with however.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What on earth? Now that is very very much false. Out of all the pvp matches I've played, its a whole lot more than such a small percentage. basing on your analysis you're concluding that based off people with really high gearscores. By truly geared and educated, not talking about trying to have a uber high gearscore. merely gear that matches thier playstyle and knowing how to use it as well as thier class.
Everything else you said more or less I agree with however.
My approximation is based on the person who posted, dersidius. I kinda know who he refers to when he is talking about truly geared and educated. You can ask him if you want, I'd say he would agree that there aren't more than 100 persons in the game that fit this description. I'd wager dersidius would go even lower numbers than me though However, this is hardly the scope of the discussion, I just pointed out that there are very very few people in this category.
I think the main point is that PvP should not be radically transformed on the whims of geared or under-geared players. Geared and experienced players do not one-shot equally experienced and geared players. They can one-shot less geared and experienced players. And the solution is to introduce sweeping changes that entirely transform gameplay in a less enjoyable manner to prevent this from happening? When the best and obvious solution is simply match-making?
It makes me cringe. I'd rather see the PvP patch delayed a while longer so that a match-making system can be introduced, instead of the proposed changes.
I think the main point is that PvP should not be radically transformed on the whims of geared or under-geared players. Geared and experienced players do not one-shot equally experienced and geared players. They can one-shot less geared and experienced players. And the solution is to introduce sweeping changes that entirely transform gameplay in a less enjoyable manner to prevent this from happening? When the best and obvious solution is simply match-making?
It makes me cringe. I'd rather see the PvP patch delayed a while longer so that a match-making system can be introduced, instead of the proposed changes.
That the matchmaking system is the first thing needed I think everybody agrees. However, high damage spikes in PVP are a real problem and Tenacity adresses that - and people who played on the preview liked it as it brings in more interesting matches that do not revolve around the First Strike doctrine.
I imagine the system will need tweaks but I will not dismiss it before testing it out.
I kind of agree on the high damage spikes at times. But why put a tenacity stat on pvp gear when they can just put a flat 20% damage reduction as a buff in all pvp related zones with a flat percentage heal reduction that doesnt stack with righteousness?
That would have clearly been better than reworking everything and making everything more complicated than it needed to be.
However, high damage spikes in PVP are a real problem
Perhaps. But, with the exception of the sent GWF, the high burst classes (CWs and HRs) are also the squishiest classes. This makes sense. It means that you have to play smart and focus the appropriate targets, otherwise you will be (appropriately) punished for it. Like I said, these classes will only one-shot you if they're built appropriately and if you haven't built appropriately. GWF burst damage is the main thing in this area that needs a nerf.
Like the previous poster (and others have) said, damage spikes can also be easily addressed by giving all players a defense buff once they enter the PvP arena.
... with a flat percentage heal reduction that doesnt stack with righteousness?
Being able to heal oneself but not anyone else is not going to help PvP DCs be any more viable without forcing them into a debuff/dps build. With the reduction in regen, healing players becomes especially important. Obviously, the tenacity stat makes the healing power of DCs problematic, which is simply another reason it's a bad idea as it is.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I have DPS DCs i use in PvP and I am targeted before healing DCs. Why? because my burst damage can kill semi tank, or take 50%+ HPs from even the tankiest GF or GWF. I therefore help with killing those classes quickly and as a result help keep our points on our side.
A good DC contributes in keeping/taking points.
As for hte changes,
Will the system be able to tell which builds are defensive and which are not? Or will it just blanket all builds with this?
If the later, then Rigteousness + Healing Depression = time to make a No Fight PvP channel for DCs.
All DCs are targeted, doesnt matter which, they are fodder for the chain CC'ers out there, however, this current changes if implemented live hurt the DC most , becuase they were not OP, they did all these nerfs to quell the GWF, but the end result is they make a weaker class the weakest in the game. Righteousness needs to be removed if they implement healing depression.
I cannot seriously think they would stack this much of a nerf on one class in one game. Ive lived through many mmos nerfs, but this much of a incoming healing loss is the most Ive ever seen in one game (bar some mmos making healers do skill choosing stances (so 100% dps gain would result in 100% SELF healing loss(but you could be healed by others)
My approximation is based on the person who posted, dersidius. I kinda know who he refers to when he is talking about truly geared and educated. You can ask him if you want, I'd say he would agree that there aren't more than 100 persons in the game that fit this description. I'd wager dersidius would go even lower numbers than me though However, this is hardly the scope of the discussion, I just pointed out that there are very very few people in this category.
It makes me cringe. I'd rather see the PvP patch delayed a while longer so that a match-making system can be introduced, instead of the proposed changes.
@Pers, Unfortunately, you are correct, the MAIN pvp community is basically what we have in the /PMvsPM channel. Even though the skill level varies in this channel, from some good players to some really bad players (wont mention names) I'm pretty sure the whole community is pist off that control wizards cant control, and Healers can't heal.
The Double dipping damage nerfs they enforced on TR, taking my main DPS Encounter -Impact shot-
and nerfing it into oblivion AND THEN adding tenacity is a completely different story, but like most changes before hand, I could adapt to it
Healing depression and excessive CC resist is inexcusable
That being said about the numbers in our population, I don't like the idea of conforming to uneducated players. Working to appease those without knowledge is as good as devolution. Might as well go back to the time of sticks and stones and shut off our computers because some guy is unaware about how to open an internet browser
@Vey, This would unfortunately be a consequence, but as @ayroux Mentioned earlier, they should include an AH-Like Matchmaking system that shows you available team
However I'm afraid that would lead to people boycotting certain guilds... (Not going to get into that one)
Btw, everyone, my hash tags aren't just for show. If you believe in any of them PLEASE add them to your signature. the more the Mods see it, the more they'll remember it.
I don't like the idea of conforming to uneducated players. Working to appease those without knowledge is as good as devolution. Might as well go back to the time of sticks and stones and shut off our computers because some guy is unaware about how to open an internet browser
The devs already said tenacity is not intended to appease pugs. Everybody that went on Preview know that pugs get stomped there just as they get stomped on Live.
Tenacity does NOTHING for the "uneducated". It doesn't help at all. OK, so said pug might take now 10 secs to kill instead of 2-3 secs. But pug will also be completely unable to hurt tenacity build PvPer.
The reason we need burst and CC on Live is that certain classes and builds are monsters of regen, not to mention also deal criminal amounts of damage even to geared PvP players and so on.
Tenacity adds an ADDITIONAL defensive layer, while also gimping regen and heals. Tenacity also cripples your damage and CC. The really bad part about it is that it blankets all classes indiscriminately.
So what we have now?
Some defenses removed, others added...
Damage spikes removed, GG on this, cause it's an MMO and we all hate nice orange crit numbers
CC made inefficient, GG on this as well, since some forgotten class depends on it, but yeah who cares, cause there were forum complaints about CWs OP in PvP everywhere, yes?
Healing made inefficient too, what can I say, DCs were so amazingly OP, there were forum complaints about DCs everywhere, yes? Nah... I didn't see any. But sure, randomly nerf DC, why not.
Tenacity, good idea, but bad implementation.
- some classes NEED damage spikes...
- some classes NEED CC
- some classes NEED to heal, d'oh, they're healers
So what I say is don't treat all classes the same. Don't apply "fixes" that encompass everything.
And I don't even wanna get into the issues that new sets of gear will bring, some having worse set bonus than T2s and so on.
- some classes NEED damage spikes...
- some classes NEED CC
- some classes NEED to heal, d'oh, they're healers
So what I say is don't treat all classes the same. Don't apply "fixes" that encompass everything.
I agree here.
Classes that need damage spikes - TR
Class that needs CC - CW
Class that needs to heal - DC
I dont honestly feel bad for TRs since they have kinda run themselves into this position with perma/semi-perma builds. I would love to see a vorpal-crit build viable again though...
Unfortunately with crits hit so hard... I dont know if thatll be possible. One idea I had is to remove the 100% crit on lashing and instead give it a 50% reduced CD on the skill if used in stealth. That would make it much more available to builds as a damaging encounter.
For DCs - We all agree healing depression is WAY too much.. 50% is ridiculous! This really needs to be toned back to about 30%. This should ONLY affect healing spells/artifacts/temp HP/regen though, these should NOT include lifesteal/lifedrinker/bloodtheft and any other damage-> heal abilities since the damage was already toned down.
for CWs - The control resist is great for prones, but is horrible for CWs. I honestly dont have many ideas here except maybe just add control bonus and at a LARGE amount to their 4pc set... like 30%. THis wont help resists though. ANother idea is make the "shield" absorb quite a bit more damage.
And my last idea was to increase the range on teleport by about 35%. This would also really help their ability to survive.... Or at the LEAST speed up the animation and remove the longer animation post-teleport so the CW can move right away. Teleport should be a quick escape process or a quick movement process not a temporary distance provider that is easy to close..
- After further thought I really like those proposed changes to CWs... Teleport range increase, significantly increase shield absorption on damage, and add control bonus to gear set... Now CWs can maintain range - needed, maintain a decent level of survivability from shield if they choose - needed, and have additional control bonus for the control powers that actually hit. Controls will still have a high resist rate, and maybe reviewing their mastery slot for control powers with an effect like:
If this control power is resisted, reduced the CD by 35%. Add this to a few control powers and I think that would balance the class nicely....
Tenacity is Multiplicative. /snip
Currently tenacity is NOT affected by armor penetration. It would happen after all of these calculations had happened.
So in the above two cases, with 20% tenacity you would actually take 296 and 160 damage respectively.
So for an extreme example, with 80% Defense based Damage Mitigation after Armor Penetration and 50% Tenacity, you would end up taking 10% of incoming damage, or is there a hard cap somewhere?
At which point do effects like the debuff from Terror / Plague Fire enchantments or the Thaumaturge's Assailing Force Feat debuff enter the equation? Do they count as a form of Armor Penetration? IIRC they can debuff PvE targets to take more than 100% of incoming damage, not sure how this works in PvP?
Also, while you guys are working on the Damage Mitigation code: is that Illusionary Shimmer Boon working as intended, or was it meant to work like the bonus you get from attributes or feats?
So for an extreme example, with 80% Defense based Damage Mitigation after Armor Penetration and 50% Tenacity, you would end up taking 10% of incoming damage, or is there a hard cap somewhere?
At which point do effects like the debuff from Terror / Plague Fire enchantments or the Thaumaturge's Assailing Force Feat debuff enter the equation? Do they count as a form of Armor Penetration? IIRC they can debuff PvE targets to take more than 100% of incoming damage, not sure how this works in PvP?
Also, while you guys are working on the Damage Mitigation code: is that Illusionary Shimmer Boon working as intended, or was it meant to work like the bonus you get from attributes or feats?
Those are not realistic numbers so lets put a real scenario out there:
A GWF with DR of 56% (with Sent Aegis) is dealt 1000 damage and the attacker has 25% ARP along with a Bronzewood enchant (16% reduced DR).
56% DR is mitigated 25% and 16% by Bronzewood for a total of 41% which leaves (56-41=)15% DR left.
That 1000 deals 850 damage. THEN enter Tenacity of 20%. This reduces that 850 by 20% for a final damage result of (850*.8)= 680 damage.
This is supported by a test I ran yesterday.
Hit a GWF with 20% tenacity (base around 58%) for 1000 dmg with no armor pen. The attack did just around 300 damage.
I kind of agree on the high damage spikes at times. But why put a tenacity stat on pvp gear when they can just put a flat 20% damage reduction as a buff in all pvp related zones with a flat percentage heal reduction that doesnt stack with righteousness?
That would have clearly been better than reworking everything and making everything more complicated than it needed to be.
You missed the point that you got a flat 10% dmg reduction, 10% crit serverity resistence, 10% cc resist in PvP ragardless your lvl, stats and gear which can be increassed by tenacity from gear.
So for an extreme example, with 80% Defense based Damage Mitigation after Armor Penetration and 50% Tenacity, you would end up taking 10% of incoming damage, or is there a hard cap somewhere?
At which point do effects like the debuff from Terror / Plague Fire enchantments or the Thaumaturge's Assailing Force Feat debuff enter the equation? Do they count as a form of Armor Penetration? IIRC they can debuff PvE targets to take more than 100% of incoming damage, not sure how this works in PvP?
Mitigation debuffs are never been in anyway related to the defence/DMG reduction.
They have always been a multiplier of the damage done applied to the target after the dmg reduction is calculated.
If you'd take 100 dmg AFTER any form of dmg reduction is applied and you got a 16% dmg mitigation debuff, like the bronzewood debuff, you'll take 116 dmg.
Plaguefire, terror, HV, Bronzewood, valiant, High Prophet, student of the sword, divine glow and so on are always mitigation debuffs and, so far, I have yet to see a "defense debuff" that actually works like the armor penetration does.
In this regards, DCs aren't the best Party member of a team since they can't solo anyone but are a good support as they have always been.
The most scaring part of the new system is that the new sets seem to be "perfect" for those perma stealth builds (low dmg/bilethorn against classes without any regen and, on top of this, higher stealth meter & recovery?)
Those are not realistic numbers so lets put a real scenario out there:
A GWF with DR of 56% (with Sent Aegis) is dealt 1000 damage and the attacker has 25% ARP along with a Bronzewood enchant (16% reduced DR).
[cut]
As said before, the bronzewood is NOT related in anyway with youre defense/dmg reduction, it's a MULTIPLIER.
It's a flat * 1,16% after any reduction is applied (that's why it procs over a training dummy and affects any DMG that isn't boosted by any buff like elven ferocity, trample the fallen, any DoT and so on).
Surprisly it's the only form of multiplier for DoTs so far.
Mitigation debuffs are never been in anyway related to the defence/DMG reduction.
They have always been a multiplier of the damage done applied to the target after the dmg reduction is calculated.
If you'd take 100 dmg AFTER any form of dmg reduction is applied and you got a 16% dmg mitigation debuff, like the bronzewood debuff, you'll take 116 dmg.
Plaguefire, terror, HV, Bronzewood, valiant, High Prophet, student of the sword, divine glow and so on are always mitigation debuffs and, so far, I have yet to see a "defense debuff" that actually works like the armor penetration does.
As said before, the bronzewood is NOT related in anyway with youre defense/dmg reduction, it's a MULTIPLIER.
It's a flat * 1,16% after any reduction is applied (that's why it procs over a training dummy and affects any DMG that isn't boosted by any buff like elven ferocity, trample the fallen, any DoT and so on).
Surprisly it's the only form of multiplier for DoTs so far.
Huh, this is news to me... I never tested this that way however.
Lets do LIVE math, forget tenacity for right now...
So 1000 dmg 25% arp bronzewood hit against a 50% DR target you do.
50% DR - 25% ARP = (1-25%)*1000 = 750 dmg then multiply THAT by 1.16% for 870 final damage? Versus my way would have been
50% - 25% - 16% = (1-9%)*1000 = 910 damage? Wow well thats a significant variable I was not aware of and it seems bronzewood is less powerful than I thought.... Ill have to test this...
How would bronze/GPF then stack in with tenacity? Before or After? My understanding is it would be before...
Huh, this is news to me... I never tested this that way however.
Lets do LIVE math, forget tenacity for right now...
So 1000 dmg 25% arp bronzewood hit against a 50% DR target you do.
50% DR - 25% ARP = (1-25%)*1000 = 750 dmg then multiply THAT by 1.16% for 870 final damage? Versus my way would have been
50% - 25% - 16% = (1-9%)*1000 = 910 damage? Wow well thats a significant variable I was not aware of and it seems bronzewood is less powerful than I thought.... Ill have to test this...
How would bronze/GPF then stack in with tenacity? Before or After? My understanding is it would be before...
Bronzewood definitely works like the former. Tested it long ago. My understanding of GPF is that it is the same. This is why when I hear arguments about how GPF destroys armor making it useless, I quickly try to rectify the perception. This is also waht makes ArPen so good. It is the only way to truly eat into damage resistance.
I haven't tested tenacity myself, but if both are multiplicative it should make it irrelevant if a damage buff (9% or 16%) is applied before or after. IE 1.16x*.8=.928x vs .8x*1.16=.928x
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I haven't tested tenacity myself, but if both are multiplicative it should make it irrelevant if a damage buff (9% or 16%) is applied before or after.
yep, unless there are any caps involved in the steps inbetween.
meh, shoulda looked into the math a bit earlier. gotten me a lesser terror enchantment, which is utter garbage (the bonus damage is weapon damage, not % of the damage you deal with the power, so the only noticable effect is the +5% damage-after-mitigation terror thingy)
1st - Damage resistance, damage resistance buffs (all appear to be additive, ie Astral Shield, HR resistance buffs such as Boar's, Oak Skin, and Lone Wolf, Unstoppable, Foresight, etc, etc)
2nd - ArPen resistance reduction.
3rd - DR cap(thus why DR over the cap counts against ArPen)
4th - any multiplicative (most seem to be multiplicative unless they stack like student of the sword) damage buffs/debuffs
5th - Deflect reduction
I would imagine Tenacity falls into the 4th category.
The way the 4th category is all multiplicative on debuffs also would explain why debuffing with multiple debuffs makes them take so much more damage. But it is still proportionate to thier damage reduction minus armor penetration.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
yep, unless there are any caps involved in the steps inbetween.
meh, shoulda looked into the math a bit earlier. gotten me a lesser terror enchantment, which is utter garbage (the bonus damage is weapon damage, not % of the damage you deal with the power, so the only noticable effect is the +5% damage-after-mitigation terror thingy)
When I tested Terror it was garbage... Only the weapon damage is decent, but considering necro damage is hurt by DR as well, now your 12% necro damage is mitigated by DR and THEN tenacity....
Huh, this is news to me... I never tested this that way however.
Lets do LIVE math, forget tenacity for right now...
So 1000 dmg 25% arp bronzewood hit against a 50% DR target you do.
50% DR - 25% ARP = (1-25%)*1000 = 750 dmg then multiply THAT by 1.16% for 870 final damage? Versus my way would have been
50% - 25% - 16% = (1-9%)*1000 = 910 damage? Wow well thats a significant variable I was not aware of and it seems bronzewood is less powerful than I thought.... Ill have to test this...
How would bronze/GPF then stack in with tenacity? Before or After? My understanding is it would be before...
As said beeing multiplicative there's no difference if they are counted before or after the reduction by the tenacy.
The good aspect of a mitigation debuff it's that is more versatile than the arp itself.
Against a player that has 25% dmg reduction you won't need more than 25% arp, while you can stack endlessly mitigation debuffs as they are not related to the target defense and, AFAIK, the only ones that got consistently way more than 25-30% dmg reduction are GFW and GF which probably represent the 20% or less of the PvP population.
BTW as I suppose has been said, the mitigation debuff are "the only way" to counter the tenacy DMG resistance while the ArP does not affect the Tenacy DMG resitence.
HRs can easily stack over 30%. My GWF is near 40% without sacrificing too much really, and if I upgraded to rank 9s, would be over 40% ArPen. A lot of TRs stack ArPen. The stat itself is cheap in terms of returns up to about 3000, after that getting expensive due to diminishing returns. 3000 puts you right at around 26%.
ArPen is still important because it affects that base % that all damage will be modified by. In terms of quickly killing someone who is tough to kill in pvp as a team, stacking debuffs has always been the way to go. 4 10% debuffs = a 46.41 damage buff against that target. But if that targets Dr is 50% and you ignored ArPen because you are stacking debuffs, that person will take 50% of the total damage vs someone vs 0% still.
Debuffs do not technically counter tenacity in the sense that you would still be doing 20-22% less damage than you would have before stacking debuffs on live. It may mean more people start to stack them instead of relying on only self buffs/debuffs to kill someone.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
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matii1509Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
Thank you for destroying DC.
Support DC is hopeless, vs every other class DC loss. I tried 7 different builds. All are suitable only for trash. The funny thing is that Regeneration heals more than my own skills, which are designed to heal(!).
I have yet to check full dps build which seems to be the most reasonable of the current corrupt system.
Comments
fair point...
And this is my issue exactly with the BS they've given CONTROL wizards. They can't control <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> anymore! And its all for the sake of the poor players that complain after 1 PvP match without understanding how the top level of this game plays
7K GS Players are walking around and complaining that they can't kill a DC
Enter DC nerf (Now a Top Tier DC couldn't Heal Wolverine -who also has his regen gimped-)
7K GS players are complaining that they die to fast
Enter Damage nerf AND Defense buff!? way to double dip (Now a Top Tier TR couldn't cut paper with a pair of scissors)
7K GS players (who average 19k to 22K HP!? Lol.) are complaining that they're getting CC'd to death because CC is too long!? PuG, I'm surprised the non-existent PvP falling damage dosent kill you first. (Now a Top Tier Control Wizard couldn't control a Chihuahua on a leash)
I mean MAYBE prones were a bit excessive, but the only thing I truly ever worried about was the 17K IBS that typically came after it
GWF needed a slight damage nerf.
Or just forget about that in General
Start making this game for the truly geared and educated people who play it
Give me ELO, Give me new maps, Give me New Game types, Or give me a new game.
Some aspects of PvP needed to be changed, but none in the manner being introduced by CC resist, healing depression, etc. (In fact, all that really needed to be done was reduce regen, reduce GWF DPS, introduce matchmaking, and fix some class bugs.)
lets see what changes they made to the gear tomorrow and play with the DEVs ourselves, then you can voice these to them on the PTR tomorrow. I know ill be there!
This right here! Forget all that other <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they are introducing. All we need is that RIGHT there.
And you want the PvP in the game to cater to these 100 guys. Oh well.
This being said, I don't like how Tenacity works (for now), although I loved resilience in WoW.
Some differences with the 2 implementations:
- in WoW my frost mage still had LOTS of CC
- in WoW my frost mage still had LOTS of burst
- in WoW my frost mage could solo ANY class, any spec, depending on gear&skill. If the opponent was more skilled and better geared I lost. I didn't lose however cause the opponent was class X or Y.
- in WoW my frost mage had decent survivability, and quite a few panic mechanics such as invisibility, ice block, ice barrier, mirror images
Now let's take the Tenacity Neverwinter:
- my CW has close to no CC (anymore)
- my CW has close to no burst (anymore)
- my CW has no escape/panic mechanic outside of 3 very limited dodges, so very little survivability
- my CW cannot solo any class, because in Neverwinter, some classes are better than others
Conclusion?
Tenacity as a mechanic is not nearly done, and as it is now, it's badly implemented.
What I would like to see?
More developer communication with us, here in these topics. I know you guys are busy working, but feedback works both ways.
Talk to us.
What on earth? Now that is very very much false. Out of all the pvp matches I've played, its a whole lot more than such a small percentage. basing on your analysis you're concluding that based off people with really high gearscores. By truly geared and educated, not talking about trying to have a uber high gearscore. merely gear that matches thier playstyle and knowing how to use it as well as thier class.
Everything else you said more or less I agree with however.
My approximation is based on the person who posted, dersidius. I kinda know who he refers to when he is talking about truly geared and educated. You can ask him if you want, I'd say he would agree that there aren't more than 100 persons in the game that fit this description. I'd wager dersidius would go even lower numbers than me though
It makes me cringe. I'd rather see the PvP patch delayed a while longer so that a match-making system can be introduced, instead of the proposed changes.
That the matchmaking system is the first thing needed I think everybody agrees. However, high damage spikes in PVP are a real problem and Tenacity adresses that - and people who played on the preview liked it as it brings in more interesting matches that do not revolve around the First Strike doctrine.
I imagine the system will need tweaks but I will not dismiss it before testing it out.
That would have clearly been better than reworking everything and making everything more complicated than it needed to be.
Perhaps. But, with the exception of the sent GWF, the high burst classes (CWs and HRs) are also the squishiest classes. This makes sense. It means that you have to play smart and focus the appropriate targets, otherwise you will be (appropriately) punished for it. Like I said, these classes will only one-shot you if they're built appropriately and if you haven't built appropriately. GWF burst damage is the main thing in this area that needs a nerf.
Like the previous poster (and others have) said, damage spikes can also be easily addressed by giving all players a defense buff once they enter the PvP arena.
Being able to heal oneself but not anyone else is not going to help PvP DCs be any more viable without forcing them into a debuff/dps build. With the reduction in regen, healing players becomes especially important. Obviously, the tenacity stat makes the healing power of DCs problematic, which is simply another reason it's a bad idea as it is.
All DCs are targeted, doesnt matter which, they are fodder for the chain CC'ers out there, however, this current changes if implemented live hurt the DC most , becuase they were not OP, they did all these nerfs to quell the GWF, but the end result is they make a weaker class the weakest in the game. Righteousness needs to be removed if they implement healing depression.
I cannot seriously think they would stack this much of a nerf on one class in one game. Ive lived through many mmos nerfs, but this much of a incoming healing loss is the most Ive ever seen in one game (bar some mmos making healers do skill choosing stances (so 100% dps gain would result in 100% SELF healing loss(but you could be healed by others)
[QUOTE=
And you want the PvP in the game to cater to these 100 guys. Oh well.
Talk to us.[/B][/QUOTE]
In answer to these points
@Destiny, thank you for quoting my post
@Pers, Unfortunately, you are correct, the MAIN pvp community is basically what we have in the /PMvsPM channel. Even though the skill level varies in this channel, from some good players to some really bad players (wont mention names) I'm pretty sure the whole community is pist off that control wizards cant control, and Healers can't heal.
The Double dipping damage nerfs they enforced on TR, taking my main DPS Encounter -Impact shot-
and nerfing it into oblivion AND THEN adding tenacity is a completely different story, but like most changes before hand, I could adapt to it
Healing depression and excessive CC resist is inexcusable
That being said about the numbers in our population, I don't like the idea of conforming to uneducated players. Working to appease those without knowledge is as good as devolution. Might as well go back to the time of sticks and stones and shut off our computers because some guy is unaware about how to open an internet browser
@Vey, This would unfortunately be a consequence, but as @ayroux Mentioned earlier, they should include an AH-Like Matchmaking system that shows you available team
However I'm afraid that would lead to people boycotting certain guilds... (Not going to get into that one)
Btw, everyone, my hash tags aren't just for show. If you believe in any of them PLEASE add them to your signature. the more the Mods see it, the more they'll remember it.
The devs already said tenacity is not intended to appease pugs. Everybody that went on Preview know that pugs get stomped there just as they get stomped on Live.
Tenacity does NOTHING for the "uneducated". It doesn't help at all. OK, so said pug might take now 10 secs to kill instead of 2-3 secs. But pug will also be completely unable to hurt tenacity build PvPer.
The reason we need burst and CC on Live is that certain classes and builds are monsters of regen, not to mention also deal criminal amounts of damage even to geared PvP players and so on.
Tenacity adds an ADDITIONAL defensive layer, while also gimping regen and heals. Tenacity also cripples your damage and CC. The really bad part about it is that it blankets all classes indiscriminately.
So what we have now?
Some defenses removed, others added...
Damage spikes removed, GG on this, cause it's an MMO and we all hate nice orange crit numbers
CC made inefficient, GG on this as well, since some forgotten class depends on it, but yeah who cares, cause there were forum complaints about CWs OP in PvP everywhere, yes?
Healing made inefficient too, what can I say, DCs were so amazingly OP, there were forum complaints about DCs everywhere, yes? Nah... I didn't see any. But sure, randomly nerf DC, why not.
Tenacity, good idea, but bad implementation.
- some classes NEED damage spikes...
- some classes NEED CC
- some classes NEED to heal, d'oh, they're healers
So what I say is don't treat all classes the same. Don't apply "fixes" that encompass everything.
And I don't even wanna get into the issues that new sets of gear will bring, some having worse set bonus than T2s and so on.
I agree here.
Classes that need damage spikes - TR
Class that needs CC - CW
Class that needs to heal - DC
I dont honestly feel bad for TRs since they have kinda run themselves into this position with perma/semi-perma builds. I would love to see a vorpal-crit build viable again though...
Unfortunately with crits hit so hard... I dont know if thatll be possible. One idea I had is to remove the 100% crit on lashing and instead give it a 50% reduced CD on the skill if used in stealth. That would make it much more available to builds as a damaging encounter.
For DCs - We all agree healing depression is WAY too much.. 50% is ridiculous! This really needs to be toned back to about 30%. This should ONLY affect healing spells/artifacts/temp HP/regen though, these should NOT include lifesteal/lifedrinker/bloodtheft and any other damage-> heal abilities since the damage was already toned down.
for CWs - The control resist is great for prones, but is horrible for CWs. I honestly dont have many ideas here except maybe just add control bonus and at a LARGE amount to their 4pc set... like 30%. THis wont help resists though. ANother idea is make the "shield" absorb quite a bit more damage.
And my last idea was to increase the range on teleport by about 35%. This would also really help their ability to survive.... Or at the LEAST speed up the animation and remove the longer animation post-teleport so the CW can move right away. Teleport should be a quick escape process or a quick movement process not a temporary distance provider that is easy to close..
- After further thought I really like those proposed changes to CWs... Teleport range increase, significantly increase shield absorption on damage, and add control bonus to gear set... Now CWs can maintain range - needed, maintain a decent level of survivability from shield if they choose - needed, and have additional control bonus for the control powers that actually hit. Controls will still have a high resist rate, and maybe reviewing their mastery slot for control powers with an effect like:
If this control power is resisted, reduced the CD by 35%. Add this to a few control powers and I think that would balance the class nicely....
Exactly. The way tenacity is, it strips classes of a significant amount of their core purpose/abilities.
At which point do effects like the debuff from Terror / Plague Fire enchantments or the Thaumaturge's Assailing Force Feat debuff enter the equation? Do they count as a form of Armor Penetration? IIRC they can debuff PvE targets to take more than 100% of incoming damage, not sure how this works in PvP?
Also, while you guys are working on the Damage Mitigation code: is that Illusionary Shimmer Boon working as intended, or was it meant to work like the bonus you get from attributes or feats?
Those are not realistic numbers so lets put a real scenario out there:
A GWF with DR of 56% (with Sent Aegis) is dealt 1000 damage and the attacker has 25% ARP along with a Bronzewood enchant (16% reduced DR).
56% DR is mitigated 25% and 16% by Bronzewood for a total of 41% which leaves (56-41=)15% DR left.
That 1000 deals 850 damage. THEN enter Tenacity of 20%. This reduces that 850 by 20% for a final damage result of (850*.8)= 680 damage.
This is supported by a test I ran yesterday.
Hit a GWF with 20% tenacity (base around 58%) for 1000 dmg with no armor pen. The attack did just around 300 damage.
1000 *(1-.58) = 420 * .8 = 336 dmg.
You missed the point that you got a flat 10% dmg reduction, 10% crit serverity resistence, 10% cc resist in PvP ragardless your lvl, stats and gear which can be increassed by tenacity from gear.
Mitigation debuffs are never been in anyway related to the defence/DMG reduction.
They have always been a multiplier of the damage done applied to the target after the dmg reduction is calculated.
If you'd take 100 dmg AFTER any form of dmg reduction is applied and you got a 16% dmg mitigation debuff, like the bronzewood debuff, you'll take 116 dmg.
Plaguefire, terror, HV, Bronzewood, valiant, High Prophet, student of the sword, divine glow and so on are always mitigation debuffs and, so far, I have yet to see a "defense debuff" that actually works like the armor penetration does.
In this regards, DCs aren't the best Party member of a team since they can't solo anyone but are a good support as they have always been.
The most scaring part of the new system is that the new sets seem to be "perfect" for those perma stealth builds (low dmg/bilethorn against classes without any regen and, on top of this, higher stealth meter & recovery?)
As said before, the bronzewood is NOT related in anyway with youre defense/dmg reduction, it's a MULTIPLIER.
It's a flat * 1,16% after any reduction is applied (that's why it procs over a training dummy and affects any DMG that isn't boosted by any buff like elven ferocity, trample the fallen, any DoT and so on).
Surprisly it's the only form of multiplier for DoTs so far.
Huh, this is news to me... I never tested this that way however.
Lets do LIVE math, forget tenacity for right now...
So 1000 dmg 25% arp bronzewood hit against a 50% DR target you do.
50% DR - 25% ARP = (1-25%)*1000 = 750 dmg then multiply THAT by 1.16% for 870 final damage? Versus my way would have been
50% - 25% - 16% = (1-9%)*1000 = 910 damage? Wow well thats a significant variable I was not aware of and it seems bronzewood is less powerful than I thought.... Ill have to test this...
How would bronze/GPF then stack in with tenacity? Before or After? My understanding is it would be before...
Bronzewood definitely works like the former. Tested it long ago. My understanding of GPF is that it is the same. This is why when I hear arguments about how GPF destroys armor making it useless, I quickly try to rectify the perception. This is also waht makes ArPen so good. It is the only way to truly eat into damage resistance.
I haven't tested tenacity myself, but if both are multiplicative it should make it irrelevant if a damage buff (9% or 16%) is applied before or after. IE 1.16x*.8=.928x vs .8x*1.16=.928x
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
yep, unless there are any caps involved in the steps inbetween.
meh, shoulda looked into the math a bit earlier. gotten me a lesser terror enchantment, which is utter garbage (the bonus damage is weapon damage, not % of the damage you deal with the power, so the only noticable effect is the +5% damage-after-mitigation terror thingy)
1st - Damage resistance, damage resistance buffs (all appear to be additive, ie Astral Shield, HR resistance buffs such as Boar's, Oak Skin, and Lone Wolf, Unstoppable, Foresight, etc, etc)
2nd - ArPen resistance reduction.
3rd - DR cap(thus why DR over the cap counts against ArPen)
4th - any multiplicative (most seem to be multiplicative unless they stack like student of the sword) damage buffs/debuffs
5th - Deflect reduction
I would imagine Tenacity falls into the 4th category.
The way the 4th category is all multiplicative on debuffs also would explain why debuffing with multiple debuffs makes them take so much more damage. But it is still proportionate to thier damage reduction minus armor penetration.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
When I tested Terror it was garbage... Only the weapon damage is decent, but considering necro damage is hurt by DR as well, now your 12% necro damage is mitigated by DR and THEN tenacity....
The good aspect of a mitigation debuff it's that is more versatile than the arp itself.
Against a player that has 25% dmg reduction you won't need more than 25% arp, while you can stack endlessly mitigation debuffs as they are not related to the target defense and, AFAIK, the only ones that got consistently way more than 25-30% dmg reduction are GFW and GF which probably represent the 20% or less of the PvP population.
BTW as I suppose has been said, the mitigation debuff are "the only way" to counter the tenacy DMG resistance while the ArP does not affect the Tenacy DMG resitence.
ArPen is still important because it affects that base % that all damage will be modified by. In terms of quickly killing someone who is tough to kill in pvp as a team, stacking debuffs has always been the way to go. 4 10% debuffs = a 46.41 damage buff against that target. But if that targets Dr is 50% and you ignored ArPen because you are stacking debuffs, that person will take 50% of the total damage vs someone vs 0% still.
Debuffs do not technically counter tenacity in the sense that you would still be doing 20-22% less damage than you would have before stacking debuffs on live. It may mean more people start to stack them instead of relying on only self buffs/debuffs to kill someone.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Support DC is hopeless, vs every other class DC loss. I tried 7 different builds. All are suitable only for trash. The funny thing is that Regeneration heals more than my own skills, which are designed to heal(!).
I have yet to check full dps build which seems to be the most reasonable of the current corrupt system.