I was thinking that a possible solution to this would be to remove enchant slots from GEAR and place them onto the gear SLOT. Any item that is placed in a gear slot has it enchantment slot(s) "filled" with the enchant that is in that slot. However, players could still slot specific gear with an enchant, and if done so the slotted enchant "overrules" the enchant in that corresponding "gear" slot.
Yeah, that may work and while it accomplishes the goal, I think its just a sliver too complicated to be practical in my opinion.
I honestly dont see an easy way to do this besides just bucking up and making people swap out an armor enchant if you want to have both gear sets. Yes it stinks, yes tenacity almost forces you to do this, however even now the optimal PVP/PVE gear set issue remains and often times I find myself swapping out sets depending on what I am doing and just pay to move enchants over.
Is that ideal? No. But wanting to min/max BOTH pve/pvp has always been that way. The issue I see is that the argument starts with gear, and can easily evolve into base rolls, stat allocations, and eventually race etc.
In my opinion part of what makes a good PVP character is the willingness to be subpar in other areas to excel in one. Thats the tradeoff, I dont think many games have the BIS pvp gear = the BIS PVE gear and while yours is a nice compromise, personally I dont think it would work well. Now allowing you to have two "quick gear layouts" liek cosmetics, im fine with that and it makes sense if you want to swap between gear, but trying to find a way to have enchants carry over to new gear pieces is a tad too far.
I think they already compromised alot with us by making it only cost 2 gold to take out an enchant.
I STILL go back to my point though that there should be multiple ways to obtain PVP t2 gear and NOT just via GG. That forces people into only playing certain times a day, and really ends up hurting the game. I get the idea that you want people playing DURING that time and thats the purpose of events, so the THREE best possible options I see are:
1) Allow people to Que for GG pvp at anytime JUST for coins/glory. The benefit then to doing GG during the event is you can win the "token" which allows for T1/T2 farming during the GG event.
Option 2) Allow players to CHOOSE to buy gear either for coins OR glory. T1 prices remain the same, T2 prices can be double the price.
Option 3) Allow T2 pieces to not only be bought via coins (existing) but also via running T2 dungeons and they can be chosen as gear when say your classes T2 chest drops. So now players can run dungeons to farm gear, or play GG to get gear.
All three of those seem very attractive options with probably option 2 being the least attractive from a game perspective (meaning its probably the easiest to farm).
I would strongly encourage one of these solutions as well as making sure we have MULTIPLE t1/t2 sets available with different stat allocations on gear for more selection. Having multiple gear choices only furthers the need for increased "farmability" of the items as well....
Feedback: Disciple Cleric One thing I noticed in the games we played yesterday, was that having people be much more survivable really encouraged people to spread out and fight on more points separately. The problem was that most points were contested more than they were open generating score. I would suggest, in the sake of speeding up games slightly, that contested points generate half the normal score for the team that owns it well it's being contested. This would make games faster, and I think also introduce much more tactical gameplay. As defending a point so it doesn't flip to the other side become far more valuable than the current more: "ninja a point so the other team has to waste time taking it back so my team has more freedom of movement on the other two points."
Lastly I'd like to point out, as a general PvP balance observation, that melee classes have a much greater disadvantage to ranged classes when it comes to defending/taking points. Well a ranged class can fairly easily stay on the point and add to it's capture/defense, melees are often forced out of the capture point to attack high damage range classes standing outside the circle attacking their party. I can't think of a good way to fix this, but a bandaid might be to apply a 10-15 second "capture" buff when a player enters a capture point area. Within the area the buff is refreshed, but once outside of the area the character continues to contribute to that point's capture until the buff expires. This would let melee have a little freedom to dance in and out of the point attacking well still being able to help with capture contribution. Though I would suggest that this buff be for melee based characters only, as forcing ranged out of the circle should still be a viable tactic for capturing points.
Youve touched on something I have noticed and thought of before as well. To further your first point, I suggested removing contesting altogether. It either ticks FOR or AGAINST your team, you goal is to capture the node and defend it as best as possible. In order for this to work out better, another OPTION would be to have the node be something you can "click" to capture rather than just stand on it uncontested to capture. It then requires an uninterrupted "channel" of say 5-6 seconds to capture and then its yours until its capped by the enemy team.
To the second point, honestly I see this as a valid strategy and why you cant always send the same person to the far node, to counter a ranged class to cap the node, send another ranged class or send TWO people. 1 to CC and the other to capture (since contesting is gone, you can make a valid strat to JUST cap the node then leave some1 behind to avoid losing it) Now its on the RANGER (ranged class) to have to try and get on the node to capture it. It goes both ways....
But avoid contesting and you partially avoid the benefit of having to stand ON a point as a melee character to accomplish the goal of not getting points, NOW it becomes a game of kill/cc the CW/HR so I can cap the node all of which, during this time its ticking for the enemy.
This creates ALOT more "high priority" fast paced games. I think this creates a more diversity in skill for the game in how well your team works together. A bigger possible skill gap = more fun for more people IMO and more incentive to play pvp to get better and prove it via skill over just a gear fight.
This idea turns the game a little more in the direction of skill/teamwork and away from just a "who has the better gear" question that dominates pvp today, and still will come tenacity change.
I would like to see soulforged either not be affected by healing depression just for the enchant heal/regen, or technically since you are dead when soulforged procs, maybe healing depression should go away for the player entirely after it has procced.
In order for this to work out better, another OPTION would be to have the node be something you can "click" to capture rather than just stand on it uncontested to capture. It then requires an uninterrupted "channel" of say 5-6 seconds to capture and then its yours until its capped by the enemy team.
I see your point about pulling melee out of the circle making for a more skill based game, and on second thought I think I like it that way. However, as for the "channel" cap, I don't like that. I feel the current system of having points cap faster the more of your team on it makes for more skill, as if a single person tries to ninja a node the time it takes currently is enough for people to respond and defend the node. Also in group fights with trying to keep more of your team on the circle than the other to pull the cap bar one way or the other seems to also make for more tactical fights than "we cap after we've killed everyone" which, with tenacity, might never happen as people could run back to the point from respawn before you've ever managed to have uninterrupted time on the point.
The only way I see that working is if you allow capping in combat, but it takes, say, 5 seconds and the person channeling it gets a huge glow graphics on her toon, and has his defense is reduced to 0. That could produce some interesting tactics of protecting your channeler from being attacked via control powers or cleverly kitting opponents out of position.
Possibly both systems could be used in conjunction.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I would like to see soulforged either not be affected by healing depression just for the enchant heal/regen, or technically since you are dead when soulforged procs, maybe healing depression should go away for the player entirely after it has procced.
SF nerf is extremely annoying I agree. It is exactly as I feared as SF was first changed: almost useless since you are resurrected with a laughable 2.5K HP or so, AND affected by the healing depression.
SF nerf is extremely annoying I agree. It is exactly as I feared as SF was first changed: almost useless since you are resurrected with a laughable 2.5K HP or so, AND affected by the healing depression.
So final death is basically certain.
Yeah the problem / annoyance I was having is before I could even get back up from soulforged death, I was dead again. No chance to dodge, go unstoppable, stealth, etc.
I have read the thread to this point and I see a few issues that have not been touched on.
All testing has been done with R8+/perfect vs R8+/perfect. Has anyone tested with a T1 purple geared toon in R5s vs the higher gear score toons? I'll bet the same complaints that we hear now will still be there or worse. This proposed "fix" to PvP does nothing for the lopsidedness of gear.
The biggest concern of mine with tenacity is that it is tied to PvP gear. Hear is the massive issue with this. You have to participate in PvP to earn the PvP gear. So if your fresh to 60 you now go into PvP with no tenacity and get utterly destroyed till you gain enough glory / coins to buy the equipment. How many times are you willing to get destroyed till you say F&*$ it and quit?
I read one suggestion that tenacity should be a stat that based on your current gear. I really like this idea as we would then be free to gear ourselves as we see fit.
Has anyone tested with lower geared toons and can provide feedback if this new system offers any help?
All testing has been done with R8+/perfect vs R8+/perfect. Has anyone tested with a T1 purple geared toon in R5s vs the higher gear score toons? I'll bet the same complaints that we hear now will still be there or worse. This proposed "fix" to PvP does nothing for the lopsidedness of gear.
I did all my testing on my DC in t1 gear with rank 7 enchants. I only had 300 tenacity and was still quite viable.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
Has anyone tested with a T1 purple geared toon in R5s vs the higher gear score toons? I'll bet the same complaints that we hear now will still be there or worse. This proposed "fix" to PvP does nothing for the lopsidedness of gear.
Read the dev post. Tenacity is not meant to even the odds between unevenly matched teams. It is meant to prevent a single encounter power rotation from killing an opponent before he has time to react when both fighters are evenly matched.
Because evenly matched teams never occur without a matchmaking system, tenacity seems like a huge waste of time that only further complicates matters to me. By all means, continue testing it, but for god's sake don't put it on Live before matchmaking.
I'm not sure why they don't just give people a flat "Tenacity" buff instead of forcing us to wear PvP gear with Tenacity. It would all come out to the same result, except if its a buff I still get to choose what armor set I use. After all, everyone will eventually be wearing PvP gear so just add the buff automatically and build diversity and PvE sets will still be viable.
Diogene, see what im really curious about to all those CWs out there is this. I dont even remember the last time I saw a CW go positive in a good premade vs premade match. I would wager MOST of the people going to the PTR to test things are usually the handful of people who pvp alot and are pretty decent, so your testing against the "better" player base, where as on live your testing against ALOT of ppl who dont even like pvp...
I often pvp with my guild, sometimes, we fight other guilds, or just good groups. It's extremely rare for me not to be able to do have a negative kills - death ratio, unless we get completely facerolled. I can also solo rogues (including permastealth ones with vorpals). The fact is that the extra control provided by oppressor, and the use of the tanky high vizier gear, currently makes my CW hard to kill. I will freeze people before they get dangerous. It's not even close to permastun, they can release, do their own stuff, but i can win because i can make them like nice ice statues to cast deadly dailies or very string damage spells.
When dealing with GWFs, on live, atm, i'm mostly on survival mode, using my regen(1k)/deflect(1k)/lifesteal (1.2k) to stay alive. When i get hit, i can either use ice storm to recover if there are several red team members on the flag, or run away for support. On preview, they don't stunlock me but the pvp gear stats are so horrible, lifesteal is so useless, and my control is so lousy that i feel there's something wrong in the equation, because the CW class is the squishiest of all, and giving our opponents the opportunity to strike back is a death sentence.
Currently, ice knife with EotS is my pocket shocking execution. 25k crits and most foes are dead, or at least, half dead (and the TR will probably enjoy doing some KS). So, they can't kill me, because i can control them long enough to be able to kill them. On preview, reds can strike back, and boom, i'm dead, because my spells have a very long casting time, can't kill people fast enough, and foes are free to move while i'm casting them. Which means i'm dead if i try to use something like chill strike, ice knife, conduit of ice, or any good wizard spell.
There are many ways to fix this: shorter casting times for CW spells (like /2), improving shield, more AC for pvp gear, and so on.
Tenacity looks fine, just not for CWs, because almost insta-kills and moderate control is all CWs have to do something meaningful on live atm.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2014
The biggest problem with Wizard damage on PTR I can see right now is the Armor Penetration Suppression. It benefits GF and GWF much more than Wizards, for instance, because those melee classes have innate Armor Penetration from their base stats. This means that we only need to stat 1375 ARP to get through the entirety of Tenacity's ARP suppression, and our entire base stat ARP is bonus damage. Wizards, however, need to stat about 3k ARP to get the same results, and their GG set doesn't have ARP on it (unless I'm mistaken).
The devs have already been talking about removing ARP suppression, so we will see if that makes it to the next patch.
It's also problematic that the range on Bull Charge has been increased, and it can be used while frozen from Icy Rays, unlike Lunging Strike. I hope this is unintended.
Better Tenacity gear variety and the removal of ARP Suppression will benefit CWs greatly (I hope). Because they certainly are on the short end of the stick with DCs right now, in my opinion.
Read the dev post. Tenacity is not meant to even the odds between unevenly matched teams. It is meant to prevent a single encounter power rotation from killing an opponent before he has time to react when both fighters are evenly matched.
Because evenly matched teams never occur without a matchmaking system, tenacity seems like a huge waste of time that only further complicates matters to me. By all means, continue testing it, but for god's sake don't put it on Live before matchmaking.
I understand that it is not meant to even out the playing field. What I don't see tested is a lower geared CW (or pick your class) vs the higher geared toons, with all the suppression, can they even dent the better geared toons now. IE have they created an even larger gap in gear?
Reason I ask is I copied my GF over to test to see what the changes to my toon would be while using T2 PvP.
On live server I have (51% DR) (28% Deflect) (2580 regen) and 36khps.
On the test server using the T2 PvP set I come in at (50% DR) (27% deflect) (1500 regen) and 38khps.
With all the suppression of arpen and crit I wonder how a lower geared toon will over come just the tenacity suppression amounts never mind what my gear gives me. I fear that the lower geared toons won't be able to even dent me (and I am no where near geared as well as the top PvPers). So I fear that the tenacity will be doing way more harm then the good they hope it will be.
I have not been able to test on test shard as I have yet to get into a queue.
Cheers,
Qwalarian
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
They will not be able to win against you. There doesn't need to be any testing done to determine this. How is that any different than live? Tenacity is not supposed to fix this problem. Matchmaking is. Again, read the dev post.
And you are right, it may create an even larger gap between geared and veteran players and new players, which is why it should not, for any reason, be implemented on live before matchmaking.
Yes I played Runescape too and pvp was fun until they changed it. That is a completely different game and the intensity came from losing an item if you die or item(s) plural, wont happen here.
Remember when I said it caused panic? Well although I did not elaborate on the specifics of panic, the lost of items were included. But the point I was making, and I even noted I was talking about high damage, was indeed the DAMAGE. For example, lets say you have 99HP, and I just AGS spec'd you for 75 damage, and the AGS or godswords in general were able to hit 50's without specs. With you now at 25HP, and knowing how hard I can hit, you would panic and spam click on food to heal xD! Otherwise you're gonna die. But it was that large amount of damage that I dealt that caused the adrenaline rush for the both of us. Meanwhile, from my point of view. I'ma lmao at how hard I just smacked you, or just be entertained in general because I just demolished your HP.
Well the same goes for NW. If I run up on you and pull out a sexy Indomitable Strength daily (on my GF), and smacked for 12k+! I'ma be hella juiced, especially If I kill you and survived long enough to get some HP back. So once AGAIN, the point I'm making is high damage indeed brings enjoyment/entertainment to both sides of the party.
I'm not sure why they don't just give people a flat "Tenacity" buff instead of forcing us to wear PvP gear with Tenacity. It would all come out to the same result, except if its a buff I still get to choose what armor set I use. After all, everyone will eventually be wearing PvP gear so just add the buff automatically and build diversity and PvE sets will still be viable.
This seems like a great idea.
I like another option aswell, i think i it posted saw earlier, to tie into PvP purchasing is to add utility enchantments to the GG & Blades vendors. Like 300 tenacity enchant (~900 max for T2) for ~80-100 GG coins or a 150 Tenacity (450 for T1) for 6-8k glory.
Either way preserve the diversity of gear. If its pvp only stat why does it need to eat into the stat budget?
It benefits GF and GWF much more than Wizards, for instance, because those melee classes have innate Armor Penetration from their base stats.
Better Tenacity gear variety and the removal of ARP Suppression will benefit CWs greatly (I hope). Because they certainly are on the short end of the stick with DCs right now, in my opinion.
Im not sure I follow here, because an -11% ARP affects everyone the same… If I deal 1000 base damage and you have 35% DR and I have 35% ARP I deal 1000 dmg, now negate 11% of my ARP and I lose 11% dmg putting me at 890 dmg dealt.
If you only have 25% DR, you already dealt less damage by 10% (900 dmg from 1000) now you lose 11% and are down to 790. So im not sure I get you there… ofc you deal less dmg because you have less arp, I don’t get how having more benefits you more?
The other aspect of “balance” here is that as a GF you DON’T get crit from your base stats versus a CW.
Only the HR/GWF from what I know get ARP/crit as base rolls…. So its kinda of that trade, which IMO I would take anyday on my GF since arp scales way better than crit. But I do see what your saying, you don’t hit very hard and with EOTS you can get crits whenever you want… Have you tried building a more tanky CW? I have friends and guildies that have been pushing 35k HP+ as a CW and have nice regen and still can deal some nice damage as well…. I mean its almost the same as a GWF specced full tank with 38k HP 1500+ regen etc…. you lose dmg but gain a lot of tanky? Just thoughts….
Currently, ice knife with EotS is my pocket shocking execution. 25k crits and most foes are dead, or at least, half dead (and the TR will probably enjoy doing some KS). So, they can't kill me, because i can control them long enough to be able to kill them. On preview, reds can strike back, and boom, i'm dead, because my spells have a very long casting time, can't kill people fast enough, and foes are free to move while i'm casting them. Which means i'm dead if i try to use something like chill strike, ice knife, conduit of ice, or any good wizard spell.
So you just kinda proved the point the DEVs are making… You say you can control them until they are dead. On PTR they can strike back, that was the entire point. I still have a hard time seeing exactly how if you have 800 tenacity, atleast 30k HP and some deflect/regen you die instantly…… Unless you went in there with non pvp gear and lowish HP. Id honestly like to do some testing with you with my LIVE gf/gwf and then go on the PTR and see what the difference is…
I am being genuine here because I don’t play a CW so I don’t really know what its like…
knowing how hard I can hit, you would panic and spam click on food to heal xD! Otherwise you're gonna die. But it was that large amount of damage that I dealt that caused the adrenaline rush for the both of us. Meanwhile, from my point of view. I'ma lmao at how hard I just smacked you, or just be entertained in general because I just demolished your HP.
Well the same goes for NW. If I run up on you and pull out a sexy Indomitable Strength daily (on my GF), and smacked for 12k+! I'ma be hella juiced, especially If I kill you and survived long enough to get some HP back. So once AGAIN, the point I'm making is high damage indeed brings enjoyment/entertainment to both sides of the party.
That’s the thing, the intensity came from knowing you could lose items, not that you might lose a 1v1. In NW I don’t get intense if im crit for 15k cause I know ill regen it back, or if I die, ill SF back, or worst case I die and respawn in <14 seconds…. So I think the best way to cause “intensity” is in the form of panic.
I think youll find that if they removed contesting, that will cause MORE panic than what you are looking for. Now itll be about playing smart and not just “how to stalemate” teams, if you mess up you better get your butt back in place and coordinate with someone otherwise your gonna lose. THAT seems to be the way to cause that intensity. Its not intense when someone stunlocks you 100 to zero and you repsawn.
It IS intense when you see their points ticking and your chasing that CW around the node to kill him so YOU can cap the node…. Because you cant just stand there and contest it anymore, its kill or lose….
I like another option instead aswell i think i saw earlier to tie into PvP purchasing is to add utility enchantments to the GG & Blades vendors. Like 300 tenacity enchant (~900 max for T2) for ~80-100 GG coins or a 150 Tenacity (450 for T1) for 6-8k glory.
Either way preserve the diversity of gear. If its pvp only stat why does it need to eat into the stat budget?
Yes I proposed that on the PTR yesterday, adding tenacity to utility, so people can trade runspeed for it or w.e they ahve there... I dont mind this at all as it keeps gear open to people, although this might create TOO tanky of characters if there is no gear loss for say a GWF who now has to go with GGt2 which doesnt have great tanky stats...
I think MAYBE when they add more gear sets this will be less an issue.
Yes I proposed that on the PTR yesterday, adding tenacity to utility, so people can trade runspeed for it or w.e they ahve there... I dont mind this at all as it keeps gear open to people, although this might create TOO tanky of characters if there is no gear loss for say a GWF who now has to go with GGt2 which doesnt have great tanky stats...
I think MAYBE when they add more gear sets this will be less an issue.
Now if you go making it utility that's a neat idea, but you come back to the issue of it makes the gap wider between the new vs experienced player stats. However, I am all for making the tenacity a buff to everyone regardless of gear to keep diversity of build/gear choices for pvp.
EDIT: Looking back a few pages in this thread, I saw someone posted a link where a response to all this feedback could be found
its currently on the second page, but may get pushed back further as more official posts are made, but in there is an in depth discussion about why and how the changes are going about being made.
Things like a matchmaking system in progress is mentioned, new PvP sets (which should help if tenacity is limited to pvp only gear) and other stuff, so definitely check that out if you haven't. Good stuff.
So you just kinda proved the point the DEVs are making… You say you can control them until they are dead. On PTR they can strike back, that was the entire point. I still have a hard time seeing exactly how if you have 800 tenacity, atleast 30k HP and some deflect/regen you die instantly…… Unless you went in there with non pvp gear and lowish HP. Id honestly like to do some testing with you with my LIVE gf/gwf and then go on the PTR and see what the difference is…
I am being genuine here because I don’t play a CW so I don’t really know what its like…
There is a big difference between stuns (cw) and permastun (gwfs). I was of course playing with pvp gear, lifesteal jewelry; maybe not a huge pile of HPs but that's supposed to be a control wizard, just not another tank. It works extremely well on live. Lifesteal with 1k regen does great. On live, i can stun them and kill them extremely quickly with brutal spells. It's not permastun, if i fail/don't crit, they have a fair chance. If my rotation works well, then, I often win.
I can't really prove my point on live unfortunately, because i'm trying a new build (renegade/flame/shadow weaver), and i really feel sorry for all the pve CWs in pvp. I didn't know it was that bad.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Regardless, the Devs know that they have some work to do. Stox's GWF was unkillable by the Devs, so they know they have some balancing issues ahead of them.
Personally, I think a matchmaking system, more maps, and a way to deal with leavers is just fine. I think Tenacity is unwanted and unnecessary. To avoid dying in one encounter rotation? Please. I'm a CW. I stack Def, Regn and Deflection and I've yet to be taken out by one encounter rotation since Module 2. An IV GWF can seriously mess me up 1v1, but I can still buy some time until help comes.
I've read through and here's my general summary of people's main opinions regarding Tenacity:
1. It's great (obviously more to it but I'm going through the general idea of it)
2. It's terrible
3. It's not what we asked for, and nothing we asked for has been hinted at or announced
4. It's not necessary
Those are the 4 I'm seeing so I guess this is where someone puts it in a poll and everyone votes. There isn't much deviation from these points throughout the arguments. For the record I'm mixed between the 3 and 4 category, I don't think it's just abysmal but I never asked for it and nothing I suggested or supported was put in or hinted at. Also I don't believe tenacity is necessary when there are many other things you could do to improve PvP that would work far better in the long run.
I've read through and here's my general summary of people's main opinions regarding Tenacity:
1. It's great (obviously more to it but I'm going through the general idea of it)
2. It's terrible
3. It's not what we asked for, and nothing we asked for has been hinted at or announced
4. It's not necessary
Those are the 4 I'm seeing so I guess this is where someone puts it in a poll and everyone votes. There isn't much deviation from these points throughout the arguments. For the record I'm mixed between the 3 and 4 category, I don't think it's just abysmal but I never asked for it and nothing I suggested or supported was put in or hinted at. Also I don't believe tenacity is necessary when there are many other things you could do to improve PvP that would work far better in the long run.
Personally I think overall it's working as intended. The squishy classes live a little longer, and the tankier classes don't live quite as long. There are definitely some tweaks that need to be made, but from what I have played I think it is actually a good idea.
Well they should either remove the arp resi in pvp, since u cant penetrate it and it acts like the flat % less dmg taken buff in pvp or make it being able to be penetrated by arp.
Right now its just another flat% dmg decrease buff which doesnt make any sense.
To make tenecity balanced i would even remove the crit resi buff AND the arp resi buff and MAYBE increase the flat% less dmg taken buff.
Bringing 3-4 new stats at once never works in my opinion, so i would just settle with 1 new stat and build around it.
Also crit resi and arp resi(if penetratable) would favour one class more than the other so to make it as balanced as possible i would stick with the flat % less dmg taken buff.
Personally I think overall it's working as intended. The squishy classes live a little longer, and the tankier classes don't live quite as long. There are definitely some tweaks that need to be made, but from what I have played I think it is actually a good idea.
I just feel that their resources could've been better used. I think the entire PvP imbalance situation could've been fixed with this list:
Make stealth drain about 25% faster to prevent Perma Stealth
Make attacks that knock enemies prone not apply the prone effect against CC targets or targets already in another animation such as knockback or prone
Give all players a 35-50% resistance to all crowd control effects such as rooting, daze, stun, and prone
Remove healing depression because Necrotic damage rips temporary hitpoints away fast enough already and everyone chooses shadowtouch (also the rest doesn't make any sense)
Nullify all enhancement-type enchantments such as soulforge and vorpral in PvP
This way rogues can't stay permanently in stealth while whittling away at targets, GWF and GF can't spam a QER chain to keep a person prone but actually have to time it properly or they get a spell, arrow, or knife in their face, DC might actually have a chance in PvP, and soulforge just irks me but it was satisfying to make that rogue suffer a bit more. If properly balanced this probably would've caused less problems than Tenacity, we all know about the invincible GWF the devs just couldn't kill by now :P.
In my opinion the Tenacity stat just creates a set of gear that the devs have decided is the "best" PvP gear. Your build and existing stats don't matter unless they happen to coincide with the gear that the developers have chosen. If they add it to every set of possible gear then what was the point of having the stat to begin with and not just giving us the effect for free?
Feedback:
I'm gonna write some feedback on my chars I played and then some general things.
1. DC- hooooly .... I really tried to find a reason to pvp, honestly I did but with the itemisation problems and the 50% heal/temp HP debuff I just can't find my purpose to be on that battlefield... I can't heal my teammates and I cant even heal myself enough to not die. Please, please, please look at our pvp set we NEED more item options, so so badly, our set is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and the bonuses on it are not good either.
2. GWF (senti but not con built and with only 1.2k regen) I'm still tanky but in a different way. I'll try to explain: on live my GWF is like hulk- I smash, im invincible- you hit me I get stronger, I also regen a LOOOT. On test shard it feels more like a WARRIOR(which implies tanky) with a rage problem- like I die slowly but I'm not hulk anymore, 2 people will down me insanely quick and 1 person can kill me if he actually tries. Definitely not ez mode anymore. I like this feeling better- it feels right. I feel like a warrior and i still use my armour to defend myself but not really a tank like a GF. the dmg is quite low now, fine line here nerf this class even more and its gone like it was before.
3. GF feels like a proper tank, can definitely withstand more pressure and the new range on BR. Soooo sooo fun playing them now, not sure if the new mark works because it kept disappearing from the target and I would like block looked at, either let us block from every direction( meaning full immunity) or just change block to a set amount of dmg, that way people wont just waste their quickest atwills to drain it and then smash u with a cc. Otherwise not really a god mode, don't know what everybody was talking about, didn't feel anything like my senti GWF feels on live right now or TR was from the start and until GWF in module 2.
4. CW Please, please, please look at our pvp set we NEED more item options, we need more delfect. Please look at the shield, it has to absorb either some CCs or a bit more dmg, just let use survive a tiny bit longer without sacrificing ALL our dmg. It is definitely no2 after HR in terms of ranged dmg atm but still very viable, I play burst Renegade and the dmg is a looot lower but given that I don't rely on chill as much I didnt feel an insane nerf, please make dagger hit harder tho, because atm its extremely weak, it shouldnt be like that.
All testing was done with R7s and norm soulforged/vorpal+ t2 pvp sets and +hp/defl/regen gear
General Feedback:
I hope we get a chance to at least respec our boons if you will not allow to respec our feats, but honestly a full respec would be very appreciated. Further although I was able to pvp on most of my chars that had regular main stat centric rolls, on the test shard I feel that the CON rolls have a much better time in pvp and I would liek an option to somehow reroll my stats without starting a new character. Soulforged seems absolutely useless, resurrect just to get killed 1 second later, either change the way it works or let it heal for the full amount in pvp. I would like to address the calls for nerfs and complaining on the forums, I'm not going to say anything about the classes I didn't test but it seems a lot of TRs are angry because they can't 2shot people and also that they haven't been reformed to their title of an absolute pvp ruler- I also understand that they are the single largest population out of all the classes and most likely the single largest contributors to the game. I must ask the developers to NOT listen to their calls for nerfs for other classes/specs/builds/bunnies? and changes to arpen supression so they could 2shot people again. But rather let people who play their own class make judgements only that class and how changes affect them. "Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress." (Napoleon Bonaparte)
I've some concerns about healing depression for GWF:
- Isn't it a nerf to T1 PvP set? It's main power is healing during combat (unstoppable). If the healing is cut in half, it's basically a huge nerf on the whole set, while the power of other PvP sets is untouched. Why then fix it with module 2, just to nerf it 50% with module 3?
- Same goes for PvP artifact Blood raven Crystal skull. You get temporary HP, which are to use during combat if you are in a pinch, to absorb damage for a small period of time. If those temporary HP, that already drains fast, are cut in half, it's basically a nerf of the artifact. Using it out of combat would be pointless.
I understand the need to reduce healing during combat, to prevent builds that can regenerate forever. But for stuff that is specifically designed to heal during combat/ give temporary HP during combat, it results in a very specific nerf.
Same way, it's a specific nerf to unstoppable. But not so much, since it just nerfs a part of the unstoppable effect. On GWF T1 PvP gear and blood raven, instead, it will result in a very huge and specific nerf.
Make attacks that knock enemies prone not apply the prone effect against CC targets or targets already in another animation
I quite like this suggestion.
Nothing is more frustrating than being chain CC'd and not even having a chance to do anything to save yourself before you die.
This would also add a little bit more skill needed for GFs and GWFs with the timing of their prones.
So after playing on the PTR last night some more and doing alot of 1v1s on my GWF, I wanted to give MORE feedback based upon my play and what I observed.
I like the feel of the GWF, People do ALOT less damage overall, but I hardly regen anything back vie unstoppable/regen/lifesteal etc. As ipwnu1 put it, the GWF feels like a Warrior. Very tanky, doesnt die fast 1v1, 2v1 is a different story. I feel like the balance is OK, im still the strongest 1v1 class, can dish out good damage and take alot, maybe TOO much. Here is why:
My base DR is about 42-43%, but adding Sent Aegis and it jumps up to 56% (tested on mobs). Then you add another 18% from base DR in pvp AND tenacity and im at 74%. This is JUST below the cap of 80% but heres the other trick...
Because ARP negates armor pen it doesnt count towards the "cap" So someone with 20% ARP, I negate out 11% of that meaning they only take away 9% of my 74% putting me at 63% and ALL of this is without unstoppable.
What I think needs to happen to balance this out:
Give all players some additional Innate resistances against effects from players
10% Reduced Critical Strike Severity
10% Increased CC Resist
10% Increased Damage Resistance
Addition of Tenacity to PVP Gear, which gives the following bonuses
Resistance to Critical Hits In the form of less crit CHANCE - so this could mean 8% LESS chance to crit instead of just making all crits deal less damage by 8%
No more Armor Penetration Suppression - remove this as it doesnt add into DR caps and just hurts damage too much.
Damage Resistance
CC Resist
Addition of Healing Depression
When struck by a player in PVP you will suffer Healing Depression for 10 seconds. This effect Reduces the effectiveness of heals and Temporary Hit Points. This effect is refreshed by taking damage from a player.
This healing depression will affect all sources of healing: - Reduces Regen by 50%
- Reduces Temporary HP by 40%
-Reduces healing spells by 25%
Potions and lifesteal are currently not affected
What I think this does is STILL provides alot of the boosted DR that was desired from tenacity. The reduced damage from crits is lessed a little by making it just crit severity instead of general damage, but to add to that, Tenacity reduces the chance they have to crit you, so it affects TWO things about crit there.
Removed ARP suppression making people hit like wet noodles - especially against a GWF whose already bumping the DR cap and ARP suppression doesnt count towards it.
Changed the healing - regen cut by 50% is good, temp HP got hit a little too hard IMO. And instead of hurting DC healing SO hard, just reduces healing spells by 25% instead of 50%. I think that MAY be a good balance to all of this.
DEVs posted about how when they hit crit so hard, it made people want to stack ARP more. I think that with the lessened crit severity and chance, that wont be AS much of an issue since the added damage say vorpal/crit still give would still be very nice bursts, just that will happen slightly less often than before.
On my Sent with 5/5 weapon master I have around 42% crit. Lessen that via tenacityand I will get bumped to 36% crit.... Thats still decent crit chance and vorpal will arguably still be the best there. On a TR, you can get up to 50% crit - dropping that to 42% doesnt do a ton.... CWs have EOTS to get crits etc.... The only class that gets hit by this the most is GF who have LOW crit (like 18%) so this would drop them to 10%....
I think youll find its still pretty balanced. CWs who complained about no damage, this may help...
Overall these changes have been getting a lot of hate, but after actually trying them on the test server last night they seem fair. Gwf is definitely more manageable in 1v1 or 2v1 scenarios. Perma based TRs are now a lot easier to kill if you can hit DoTs on them because of healing depression. Also playing my semi-perma build, the whole max CON with bilethorn and regen ect. radiant defense slots, recovery, is now much weaker in comparison to other builds which could get more arm pen from stats or just stack more in general. Also on another note, the new GF mark lasts long and does go through stealth, which makes it a much more fair fight using a stealth based or any rogue build vs GF.
To me, overall I like the changes. It seems like classes balance out against eachother much better. Even the 1v1 I had against a DC was extremely close multiple times. They extra damage debuffs do make up for the lack of healing ability very well. Things like stealth based builds become less effective because they rely on damage over time and small hits as well as cannot keep up hp with regen as well between attack/stealth. Gwf tanks now seem to tank well, but can also be taken out much more reliably because of the healing debuff. Rather than there seeming like there is a wall once you get them down to a "max regen" hp level, it is a more consistent fight and they are able to be killed. (Also, the new gf mark provides a way for gf to counter rogues, as well as adds additional damage to their attacks.)
Comments
Yeah, that may work and while it accomplishes the goal, I think its just a sliver too complicated to be practical in my opinion.
I honestly dont see an easy way to do this besides just bucking up and making people swap out an armor enchant if you want to have both gear sets. Yes it stinks, yes tenacity almost forces you to do this, however even now the optimal PVP/PVE gear set issue remains and often times I find myself swapping out sets depending on what I am doing and just pay to move enchants over.
Is that ideal? No. But wanting to min/max BOTH pve/pvp has always been that way. The issue I see is that the argument starts with gear, and can easily evolve into base rolls, stat allocations, and eventually race etc.
In my opinion part of what makes a good PVP character is the willingness to be subpar in other areas to excel in one. Thats the tradeoff, I dont think many games have the BIS pvp gear = the BIS PVE gear and while yours is a nice compromise, personally I dont think it would work well. Now allowing you to have two "quick gear layouts" liek cosmetics, im fine with that and it makes sense if you want to swap between gear, but trying to find a way to have enchants carry over to new gear pieces is a tad too far.
I think they already compromised alot with us by making it only cost 2 gold to take out an enchant.
I STILL go back to my point though that there should be multiple ways to obtain PVP t2 gear and NOT just via GG. That forces people into only playing certain times a day, and really ends up hurting the game. I get the idea that you want people playing DURING that time and thats the purpose of events, so the THREE best possible options I see are:
1) Allow people to Que for GG pvp at anytime JUST for coins/glory. The benefit then to doing GG during the event is you can win the "token" which allows for T1/T2 farming during the GG event.
Option 2) Allow players to CHOOSE to buy gear either for coins OR glory. T1 prices remain the same, T2 prices can be double the price.
Option 3) Allow T2 pieces to not only be bought via coins (existing) but also via running T2 dungeons and they can be chosen as gear when say your classes T2 chest drops. So now players can run dungeons to farm gear, or play GG to get gear.
All three of those seem very attractive options with probably option 2 being the least attractive from a game perspective (meaning its probably the easiest to farm).
I would strongly encourage one of these solutions as well as making sure we have MULTIPLE t1/t2 sets available with different stat allocations on gear for more selection. Having multiple gear choices only furthers the need for increased "farmability" of the items as well....
Youve touched on something I have noticed and thought of before as well. To further your first point, I suggested removing contesting altogether. It either ticks FOR or AGAINST your team, you goal is to capture the node and defend it as best as possible. In order for this to work out better, another OPTION would be to have the node be something you can "click" to capture rather than just stand on it uncontested to capture. It then requires an uninterrupted "channel" of say 5-6 seconds to capture and then its yours until its capped by the enemy team.
To the second point, honestly I see this as a valid strategy and why you cant always send the same person to the far node, to counter a ranged class to cap the node, send another ranged class or send TWO people. 1 to CC and the other to capture (since contesting is gone, you can make a valid strat to JUST cap the node then leave some1 behind to avoid losing it) Now its on the RANGER (ranged class) to have to try and get on the node to capture it. It goes both ways....
But avoid contesting and you partially avoid the benefit of having to stand ON a point as a melee character to accomplish the goal of not getting points, NOW it becomes a game of kill/cc the CW/HR so I can cap the node all of which, during this time its ticking for the enemy.
This creates ALOT more "high priority" fast paced games. I think this creates a more diversity in skill for the game in how well your team works together. A bigger possible skill gap = more fun for more people IMO and more incentive to play pvp to get better and prove it via skill over just a gear fight.
This idea turns the game a little more in the direction of skill/teamwork and away from just a "who has the better gear" question that dominates pvp today, and still will come tenacity change.
I see your point about pulling melee out of the circle making for a more skill based game, and on second thought I think I like it that way. However, as for the "channel" cap, I don't like that. I feel the current system of having points cap faster the more of your team on it makes for more skill, as if a single person tries to ninja a node the time it takes currently is enough for people to respond and defend the node. Also in group fights with trying to keep more of your team on the circle than the other to pull the cap bar one way or the other seems to also make for more tactical fights than "we cap after we've killed everyone" which, with tenacity, might never happen as people could run back to the point from respawn before you've ever managed to have uninterrupted time on the point.
The only way I see that working is if you allow capping in combat, but it takes, say, 5 seconds and the person channeling it gets a huge glow graphics on her toon, and has his defense is reduced to 0. That could produce some interesting tactics of protecting your channeler from being attacked via control powers or cleverly kitting opponents out of position.
Possibly both systems could be used in conjunction.
SF nerf is extremely annoying I agree. It is exactly as I feared as SF was first changed: almost useless since you are resurrected with a laughable 2.5K HP or so, AND affected by the healing depression.
So final death is basically certain.
Yeah the problem / annoyance I was having is before I could even get back up from soulforged death, I was dead again. No chance to dodge, go unstoppable, stealth, etc.
I have read the thread to this point and I see a few issues that have not been touched on.
All testing has been done with R8+/perfect vs R8+/perfect. Has anyone tested with a T1 purple geared toon in R5s vs the higher gear score toons? I'll bet the same complaints that we hear now will still be there or worse. This proposed "fix" to PvP does nothing for the lopsidedness of gear.
The biggest concern of mine with tenacity is that it is tied to PvP gear. Hear is the massive issue with this. You have to participate in PvP to earn the PvP gear. So if your fresh to 60 you now go into PvP with no tenacity and get utterly destroyed till you gain enough glory / coins to buy the equipment. How many times are you willing to get destroyed till you say F&*$ it and quit?
I read one suggestion that tenacity should be a stat that based on your current gear. I really like this idea as we would then be free to gear ourselves as we see fit.
Has anyone tested with lower geared toons and can provide feedback if this new system offers any help?
Thanks,
Qwalarian
I did all my testing on my DC in t1 gear with rank 7 enchants. I only had 300 tenacity and was still quite viable.
Read the dev post. Tenacity is not meant to even the odds between unevenly matched teams. It is meant to prevent a single encounter power rotation from killing an opponent before he has time to react when both fighters are evenly matched.
Because evenly matched teams never occur without a matchmaking system, tenacity seems like a huge waste of time that only further complicates matters to me. By all means, continue testing it, but for god's sake don't put it on Live before matchmaking.
I often pvp with my guild, sometimes, we fight other guilds, or just good groups. It's extremely rare for me not to be able to do have a negative kills - death ratio, unless we get completely facerolled. I can also solo rogues (including permastealth ones with vorpals). The fact is that the extra control provided by oppressor, and the use of the tanky high vizier gear, currently makes my CW hard to kill. I will freeze people before they get dangerous. It's not even close to permastun, they can release, do their own stuff, but i can win because i can make them like nice ice statues to cast deadly dailies or very string damage spells.
When dealing with GWFs, on live, atm, i'm mostly on survival mode, using my regen(1k)/deflect(1k)/lifesteal (1.2k) to stay alive. When i get hit, i can either use ice storm to recover if there are several red team members on the flag, or run away for support. On preview, they don't stunlock me but the pvp gear stats are so horrible, lifesteal is so useless, and my control is so lousy that i feel there's something wrong in the equation, because the CW class is the squishiest of all, and giving our opponents the opportunity to strike back is a death sentence.
Currently, ice knife with EotS is my pocket shocking execution. 25k crits and most foes are dead, or at least, half dead (and the TR will probably enjoy doing some KS). So, they can't kill me, because i can control them long enough to be able to kill them. On preview, reds can strike back, and boom, i'm dead, because my spells have a very long casting time, can't kill people fast enough, and foes are free to move while i'm casting them. Which means i'm dead if i try to use something like chill strike, ice knife, conduit of ice, or any good wizard spell.
There are many ways to fix this: shorter casting times for CW spells (like /2), improving shield, more AC for pvp gear, and so on.
Tenacity looks fine, just not for CWs, because almost insta-kills and moderate control is all CWs have to do something meaningful on live atm.
The devs have already been talking about removing ARP suppression, so we will see if that makes it to the next patch.
It's also problematic that the range on Bull Charge has been increased, and it can be used while frozen from Icy Rays, unlike Lunging Strike. I hope this is unintended.
Better Tenacity gear variety and the removal of ARP Suppression will benefit CWs greatly (I hope). Because they certainly are on the short end of the stick with DCs right now, in my opinion.
I understand that it is not meant to even out the playing field. What I don't see tested is a lower geared CW (or pick your class) vs the higher geared toons, with all the suppression, can they even dent the better geared toons now. IE have they created an even larger gap in gear?
Reason I ask is I copied my GF over to test to see what the changes to my toon would be while using T2 PvP.
On live server I have (51% DR) (28% Deflect) (2580 regen) and 36khps.
On the test server using the T2 PvP set I come in at (50% DR) (27% deflect) (1500 regen) and 38khps.
With all the suppression of arpen and crit I wonder how a lower geared toon will over come just the tenacity suppression amounts never mind what my gear gives me. I fear that the lower geared toons won't be able to even dent me (and I am no where near geared as well as the top PvPers). So I fear that the tenacity will be doing way more harm then the good they hope it will be.
I have not been able to test on test shard as I have yet to get into a queue.
Cheers,
Qwalarian
They will not be able to win against you. There doesn't need to be any testing done to determine this. How is that any different than live? Tenacity is not supposed to fix this problem. Matchmaking is. Again, read the dev post.
And you are right, it may create an even larger gap between geared and veteran players and new players, which is why it should not, for any reason, be implemented on live before matchmaking.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=7075441#post7075441
Remember when I said it caused panic? Well although I did not elaborate on the specifics of panic, the lost of items were included. But the point I was making, and I even noted I was talking about high damage, was indeed the DAMAGE. For example, lets say you have 99HP, and I just AGS spec'd you for 75 damage, and the AGS or godswords in general were able to hit 50's without specs. With you now at 25HP, and knowing how hard I can hit, you would panic and spam click on food to heal xD! Otherwise you're gonna die. But it was that large amount of damage that I dealt that caused the adrenaline rush for the both of us. Meanwhile, from my point of view. I'ma lmao at how hard I just smacked you, or just be entertained in general because I just demolished your HP.
Well the same goes for NW. If I run up on you and pull out a sexy Indomitable Strength daily (on my GF), and smacked for 12k+! I'ma be hella juiced, especially If I kill you and survived long enough to get some HP back. So once AGAIN, the point I'm making is high damage indeed brings enjoyment/entertainment to both sides of the party.
This seems like a great idea.
I like another option aswell, i think i it posted saw earlier, to tie into PvP purchasing is to add utility enchantments to the GG & Blades vendors. Like 300 tenacity enchant (~900 max for T2) for ~80-100 GG coins or a 150 Tenacity (450 for T1) for 6-8k glory.
Either way preserve the diversity of gear. If its pvp only stat why does it need to eat into the stat budget?
Im not sure I follow here, because an -11% ARP affects everyone the same… If I deal 1000 base damage and you have 35% DR and I have 35% ARP I deal 1000 dmg, now negate 11% of my ARP and I lose 11% dmg putting me at 890 dmg dealt.
If you only have 25% DR, you already dealt less damage by 10% (900 dmg from 1000) now you lose 11% and are down to 790. So im not sure I get you there… ofc you deal less dmg because you have less arp, I don’t get how having more benefits you more?
The other aspect of “balance” here is that as a GF you DON’T get crit from your base stats versus a CW.
Only the HR/GWF from what I know get ARP/crit as base rolls…. So its kinda of that trade, which IMO I would take anyday on my GF since arp scales way better than crit. But I do see what your saying, you don’t hit very hard and with EOTS you can get crits whenever you want… Have you tried building a more tanky CW? I have friends and guildies that have been pushing 35k HP+ as a CW and have nice regen and still can deal some nice damage as well…. I mean its almost the same as a GWF specced full tank with 38k HP 1500+ regen etc…. you lose dmg but gain a lot of tanky? Just thoughts….
So you just kinda proved the point the DEVs are making… You say you can control them until they are dead. On PTR they can strike back, that was the entire point. I still have a hard time seeing exactly how if you have 800 tenacity, atleast 30k HP and some deflect/regen you die instantly…… Unless you went in there with non pvp gear and lowish HP. Id honestly like to do some testing with you with my LIVE gf/gwf and then go on the PTR and see what the difference is…
I am being genuine here because I don’t play a CW so I don’t really know what its like…
That’s the thing, the intensity came from knowing you could lose items, not that you might lose a 1v1. In NW I don’t get intense if im crit for 15k cause I know ill regen it back, or if I die, ill SF back, or worst case I die and respawn in <14 seconds…. So I think the best way to cause “intensity” is in the form of panic.
I think youll find that if they removed contesting, that will cause MORE panic than what you are looking for. Now itll be about playing smart and not just “how to stalemate” teams, if you mess up you better get your butt back in place and coordinate with someone otherwise your gonna lose. THAT seems to be the way to cause that intensity. Its not intense when someone stunlocks you 100 to zero and you repsawn.
It IS intense when you see their points ticking and your chasing that CW around the node to kill him so YOU can cap the node…. Because you cant just stand there and contest it anymore, its kill or lose….
Yes I proposed that on the PTR yesterday, adding tenacity to utility, so people can trade runspeed for it or w.e they ahve there... I dont mind this at all as it keeps gear open to people, although this might create TOO tanky of characters if there is no gear loss for say a GWF who now has to go with GGt2 which doesnt have great tanky stats...
I think MAYBE when they add more gear sets this will be less an issue.
Now if you go making it utility that's a neat idea, but you come back to the issue of it makes the gap wider between the new vs experienced player stats. However, I am all for making the tenacity a buff to everyone regardless of gear to keep diversity of build/gear choices for pvp.
EDIT: Looking back a few pages in this thread, I saw someone posted a link where a response to all this feedback could be found
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/devtracker.php?page=2
its currently on the second page, but may get pushed back further as more official posts are made, but in there is an in depth discussion about why and how the changes are going about being made.
Things like a matchmaking system in progress is mentioned, new PvP sets (which should help if tenacity is limited to pvp only gear) and other stuff, so definitely check that out if you haven't. Good stuff.
There is a big difference between stuns (cw) and permastun (gwfs). I was of course playing with pvp gear, lifesteal jewelry; maybe not a huge pile of HPs but that's supposed to be a control wizard, just not another tank. It works extremely well on live. Lifesteal with 1k regen does great. On live, i can stun them and kill them extremely quickly with brutal spells. It's not permastun, if i fail/don't crit, they have a fair chance. If my rotation works well, then, I often win.
I can't really prove my point on live unfortunately, because i'm trying a new build (renegade/flame/shadow weaver), and i really feel sorry for all the pve CWs in pvp. I didn't know it was that bad.
Personally, I think a matchmaking system, more maps, and a way to deal with leavers is just fine. I think Tenacity is unwanted and unnecessary. To avoid dying in one encounter rotation? Please. I'm a CW. I stack Def, Regn and Deflection and I've yet to be taken out by one encounter rotation since Module 2. An IV GWF can seriously mess me up 1v1, but I can still buy some time until help comes.
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1. It's great (obviously more to it but I'm going through the general idea of it)
2. It's terrible
3. It's not what we asked for, and nothing we asked for has been hinted at or announced
4. It's not necessary
Those are the 4 I'm seeing so I guess this is where someone puts it in a poll and everyone votes. There isn't much deviation from these points throughout the arguments. For the record I'm mixed between the 3 and 4 category, I don't think it's just abysmal but I never asked for it and nothing I suggested or supported was put in or hinted at. Also I don't believe tenacity is necessary when there are many other things you could do to improve PvP that would work far better in the long run.
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Personally I think overall it's working as intended. The squishy classes live a little longer, and the tankier classes don't live quite as long. There are definitely some tweaks that need to be made, but from what I have played I think it is actually a good idea.
Right now its just another flat% dmg decrease buff which doesnt make any sense.
To make tenecity balanced i would even remove the crit resi buff AND the arp resi buff and MAYBE increase the flat% less dmg taken buff.
Bringing 3-4 new stats at once never works in my opinion, so i would just settle with 1 new stat and build around it.
Also crit resi and arp resi(if penetratable) would favour one class more than the other so to make it as balanced as possible i would stick with the flat % less dmg taken buff.
I just feel that their resources could've been better used. I think the entire PvP imbalance situation could've been fixed with this list:
This way rogues can't stay permanently in stealth while whittling away at targets, GWF and GF can't spam a QER chain to keep a person prone but actually have to time it properly or they get a spell, arrow, or knife in their face, DC might actually have a chance in PvP, and soulforge just irks me but it was satisfying to make that rogue suffer a bit more. If properly balanced this probably would've caused less problems than Tenacity, we all know about the invincible GWF the devs just couldn't kill by now :P.
In my opinion the Tenacity stat just creates a set of gear that the devs have decided is the "best" PvP gear. Your build and existing stats don't matter unless they happen to coincide with the gear that the developers have chosen. If they add it to every set of possible gear then what was the point of having the stat to begin with and not just giving us the effect for free?
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I'm gonna write some feedback on my chars I played and then some general things.
1. DC- hooooly .... I really tried to find a reason to pvp, honestly I did but with the itemisation problems and the 50% heal/temp HP debuff I just can't find my purpose to be on that battlefield... I can't heal my teammates and I cant even heal myself enough to not die. Please, please, please look at our pvp set we NEED more item options, so so badly, our set is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and the bonuses on it are not good either.
2. GWF (senti but not con built and with only 1.2k regen) I'm still tanky but in a different way. I'll try to explain: on live my GWF is like hulk- I smash, im invincible- you hit me I get stronger, I also regen a LOOOT. On test shard it feels more like a WARRIOR(which implies tanky) with a rage problem- like I die slowly but I'm not hulk anymore, 2 people will down me insanely quick and 1 person can kill me if he actually tries. Definitely not ez mode anymore. I like this feeling better- it feels right. I feel like a warrior and i still use my armour to defend myself but not really a tank like a GF. the dmg is quite low now, fine line here nerf this class even more and its gone like it was before.
3. GF feels like a proper tank, can definitely withstand more pressure and the new range on BR. Soooo sooo fun playing them now, not sure if the new mark works because it kept disappearing from the target and I would like block looked at, either let us block from every direction( meaning full immunity) or just change block to a set amount of dmg, that way people wont just waste their quickest atwills to drain it and then smash u with a cc. Otherwise not really a god mode, don't know what everybody was talking about, didn't feel anything like my senti GWF feels on live right now or TR was from the start and until GWF in module 2.
4. CW Please, please, please look at our pvp set we NEED more item options, we need more delfect. Please look at the shield, it has to absorb either some CCs or a bit more dmg, just let use survive a tiny bit longer without sacrificing ALL our dmg. It is definitely no2 after HR in terms of ranged dmg atm but still very viable, I play burst Renegade and the dmg is a looot lower but given that I don't rely on chill as much I didnt feel an insane nerf, please make dagger hit harder tho, because atm its extremely weak, it shouldnt be like that.
All testing was done with R7s and norm soulforged/vorpal+ t2 pvp sets and +hp/defl/regen gear
General Feedback:
I hope we get a chance to at least respec our boons if you will not allow to respec our feats, but honestly a full respec would be very appreciated. Further although I was able to pvp on most of my chars that had regular main stat centric rolls, on the test shard I feel that the CON rolls have a much better time in pvp and I would liek an option to somehow reroll my stats without starting a new character. Soulforged seems absolutely useless, resurrect just to get killed 1 second later, either change the way it works or let it heal for the full amount in pvp. I would like to address the calls for nerfs and complaining on the forums, I'm not going to say anything about the classes I didn't test but it seems a lot of TRs are angry because they can't 2shot people and also that they haven't been reformed to their title of an absolute pvp ruler- I also understand that they are the single largest population out of all the classes and most likely the single largest contributors to the game. I must ask the developers to NOT listen to their calls for nerfs for other classes/specs/builds/bunnies? and changes to arpen supression so they could 2shot people again. But rather let people who play their own class make judgements only that class and how changes affect them. "Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress." (Napoleon Bonaparte)
- Isn't it a nerf to T1 PvP set? It's main power is healing during combat (unstoppable). If the healing is cut in half, it's basically a huge nerf on the whole set, while the power of other PvP sets is untouched. Why then fix it with module 2, just to nerf it 50% with module 3?
- Same goes for PvP artifact Blood raven Crystal skull. You get temporary HP, which are to use during combat if you are in a pinch, to absorb damage for a small period of time. If those temporary HP, that already drains fast, are cut in half, it's basically a nerf of the artifact. Using it out of combat would be pointless.
I understand the need to reduce healing during combat, to prevent builds that can regenerate forever. But for stuff that is specifically designed to heal during combat/ give temporary HP during combat, it results in a very specific nerf.
Same way, it's a specific nerf to unstoppable. But not so much, since it just nerfs a part of the unstoppable effect. On GWF T1 PvP gear and blood raven, instead, it will result in a very huge and specific nerf.
I quite like this suggestion.
Nothing is more frustrating than being chain CC'd and not even having a chance to do anything to save yourself before you die.
This would also add a little bit more skill needed for GFs and GWFs with the timing of their prones.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
A small compilation can me watched here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x697kT8hDYs
So after playing on the PTR last night some more and doing alot of 1v1s on my GWF, I wanted to give MORE feedback based upon my play and what I observed.
I like the feel of the GWF, People do ALOT less damage overall, but I hardly regen anything back vie unstoppable/regen/lifesteal etc. As ipwnu1 put it, the GWF feels like a Warrior. Very tanky, doesnt die fast 1v1, 2v1 is a different story. I feel like the balance is OK, im still the strongest 1v1 class, can dish out good damage and take alot, maybe TOO much. Here is why:
My base DR is about 42-43%, but adding Sent Aegis and it jumps up to 56% (tested on mobs). Then you add another 18% from base DR in pvp AND tenacity and im at 74%. This is JUST below the cap of 80% but heres the other trick...
Because ARP negates armor pen it doesnt count towards the "cap" So someone with 20% ARP, I negate out 11% of that meaning they only take away 9% of my 74% putting me at 63% and ALL of this is without unstoppable.
What I think needs to happen to balance this out:
Give all players some additional Innate resistances against effects from players
Addition of Tenacity to PVP Gear, which gives the following bonuses
Addition of Healing Depression
- Reduces Regen by 50%
- Reduces Temporary HP by 40%
-Reduces healing spells by 25%
Potions and lifesteal are currently not affected
What I think this does is STILL provides alot of the boosted DR that was desired from tenacity. The reduced damage from crits is lessed a little by making it just crit severity instead of general damage, but to add to that, Tenacity reduces the chance they have to crit you, so it affects TWO things about crit there.
Removed ARP suppression making people hit like wet noodles - especially against a GWF whose already bumping the DR cap and ARP suppression doesnt count towards it.
Changed the healing - regen cut by 50% is good, temp HP got hit a little too hard IMO. And instead of hurting DC healing SO hard, just reduces healing spells by 25% instead of 50%. I think that MAY be a good balance to all of this.
DEVs posted about how when they hit crit so hard, it made people want to stack ARP more. I think that with the lessened crit severity and chance, that wont be AS much of an issue since the added damage say vorpal/crit still give would still be very nice bursts, just that will happen slightly less often than before.
On my Sent with 5/5 weapon master I have around 42% crit. Lessen that via tenacityand I will get bumped to 36% crit.... Thats still decent crit chance and vorpal will arguably still be the best there. On a TR, you can get up to 50% crit - dropping that to 42% doesnt do a ton.... CWs have EOTS to get crits etc.... The only class that gets hit by this the most is GF who have LOW crit (like 18%) so this would drop them to 10%....
I think youll find its still pretty balanced. CWs who complained about no damage, this may help...
To me, overall I like the changes. It seems like classes balance out against eachother much better. Even the 1v1 I had against a DC was extremely close multiple times. They extra damage debuffs do make up for the lack of healing ability very well. Things like stealth based builds become less effective because they rely on damage over time and small hits as well as cannot keep up hp with regen as well between attack/stealth. Gwf tanks now seem to tank well, but can also be taken out much more reliably because of the healing debuff. Rather than there seeming like there is a wall once you get them down to a "max regen" hp level, it is a more consistent fight and they are able to be killed. (Also, the new gf mark provides a way for gf to counter rogues, as well as adds additional damage to their attacks.)