Considering the fact that an entangling last a fraction of a second on Preview even with Orb of Imposition and full arcane stacks, I'd say duration is also an issue.
But resists are just as important. Pretty frustrating as a CW seeing your only prone being rendered useless and so on.
Is that worded poorly, or are you only changing the control duration, not resist?
Only asking because most people that I play with think that the issue is the % chance to resist, not the duration once they land a cc.
There is a bit of confusion here, so I wanted to clear it up bit. "Control Resist" in most cases *only affects duration*. The exception to this is Knocks and Repels, who have their distances reduced. However there is currently a bug that allows you to Deflect incoming controls as well, which is giving you much more resistance to controls than is intended on average. We are currently investigating fixes to this bug, and I don't have an eta on it at this time, but we are aware of the issue and are working on a fix. This should prove to be a huge QoL improvement for all control effects. They will be much more consistent against targets because they will not suddenly have an additional 50% (or 75%) resistance applied to them suddenly.
Due to the fact everybody in PVP is halfling naow - NERF HALFINGS O:
If I would have not invested that much AD in artifacts, I'd level a halfing now myself. Nothing else makes sense. I could go 21 Con, and wear more offensive jewelry and get more ArP, all on top of the racial bonus.
And I'd be small too! (and ugly )
Probably in the end I would do that, cause they have too many advantages for PvP. Feeling pretty suboptimal with a tiefling.
There is a bit of confusion here, so I wanted to clear it up bit. "Control Resist" in most cases *only affects duration*. The exception to this is Knocks and Repels, who have their distances reduced. However there is currently a bug that allows you to Deflect incoming controls as well, which is giving you much more resistance to controls than is intended on average. We are currently investigating fixes to this bug, and I don't have an eta on it at this time, but we are aware of the issue and are working on a fix. This should prove to be a huge QoL improvement for all control effects. They will be much more consistent against targets because they will not suddenly have an additional 50% (or 75%) resistance applied to them suddenly.
Thanks all for your continued feedback!
Thanks a lot for confirming our observations. Looking forward to the fix. Probably halfling would still be best for PvP, but at least the advantages won't be so significant, and classes with huge deflect might be a bit easier to CC.
There is a bit of confusion here, so I wanted to clear it up bit. "Control Resist" in most cases *only affects duration*. The exception to this is Knocks and Repels, who have their distances reduced. However there is currently a bug that allows you to Deflect incoming controls as well, which is giving you much more resistance to controls than is intended on average. We are currently investigating fixes to this bug, and I don't have an eta on it at this time, but we are aware of the issue and are working on a fix. This should prove to be a huge QoL improvement for all control effects. They will be much more consistent against targets because they will not suddenly have an additional 50% (or 75%) resistance applied to them suddenly.
Thanks all for your continued feedback!
Actually this begs the question;
What causes players to resist prones?
Let's rephrase that.
What causes prones (and other cc effects) to completely miss a target in pvp (0 animation, 0 duration)?
Enemy uses something that prones or otherwise ccs me.
Nothing happens (and I did not deflect the damage)
My (and stox's) theory has always been that this is due to the Halfling racial.
=============
EDIT: Here's some data
Yes = the character having skills used against them did not receive any cc effect (as in yes, they resisted) No = the opposite! This is to show that this phenomenon has nothing to do with deflecting. Please note that the distance of push from repel was decreased when deflected, as Chris suggests it should be.
Race of target is Halfling unless otherwise noted.
Yes& Deflected[Combat (Self)] vedril deals 620 (1827) Arcane to you with Repel. No& Deflected[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! vedril deals 1454 (4288) Arcane to you with Repel. Yes& Deflected[Combat (Self)] vedril deals 644 (1900) Arcane to you with Repel. Yes& Not Deflected[Combat (Self)] vedril deals 1228 (1811) Arcane to you with Repel.
No& Deflected[Combat (Party)] Seren deals 1378 (2552) Physical to vedril with Takedown. Yes& Not Deflected [Say] Seren@sirindra: [22:26] [Combat (Self)] Your Frontline Surge deals 3714 Physical to vedril.
Yes& Not Deflected (Tiefling) [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! vedril deals 3765 (4132) Arcane to you with Repel.
Again, this shows that completely resisting (ie - no fall down animation vs. prone) a cc effect has nothing to do with deflecting. This also shows that non-halflings can do it too, so I will update my theory to dwarf/halfing racials and WIS.
Also, while we are on the subject of odd cc behavior, are you aware that a critical attack that adds cc increases the effect of said cc?
Examples:
Entangling Force will tick 1 extra tick.
Repel will push at least 50% further.
etc, etc...
===========
Dear mods, this may not seem like tenacity based discussion to you, but I'm sure it is relevant to Chris and his team for proper balancing of tenacity.
If I would have not invested that much AD in artifacts, I'd level a halfing now myself. Nothing else makes sense. I could go 21 Con, and wear more offensive jewelry and get more ArP, all on top of the racial bonus.
And I'd be small too! (and ugly )
The thing is the fact we can't change our initial stat rolls is hopefully something that can get fixed b/c as you said we invest so much ad in each character... hard to invest in more than one.
Also, I like to think sepia is adorable:p
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The thing is the fact we can't change our initial stat rolls is hopefully something that can get fixed b/c as you said we invest so much ad in each character... hard to invest in more than one.
Also, I like to think sepia is adorable:p
A Dual Spec where you get to reroll stats for each spec (completely as you described and as it was requested a few times in the forums already) would be awesome. I'd have my PvP spec with highest Con I could get and PvE with Int/Cha each with their feats&powers and would be happy.
Again, this shows that completely resisting (ie - no fall down animation vs. prone) a cc effect has nothing to do with deflecting.
you seem to be overlooking the possibility that the roll for deflecting -damage- and the roll for deflecting -CC- could be entirely separate rolls right now. this would easily explain why the CC portion of an attack can be deflected when the damage portion isn't (thus, the attack appears not deflected to you)
Still forcing you to switch gear sets to play pvp correctly, also another 2mill to slot the enchantments. I'm not going to sit here and argue Semantics with you. I have voiced my opinion and have accepted the fact the changes are coming. That's all I have to say about it.
why is it 2 million... the only thing you need is an armor enchant. the rest is utility...
You can just make a normal for pve and use the whatever enchant you have for pve now for pvp....
a normal is not 2 million
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
About that healing... if it's going to come later what are clerics going to do now since healing depression is hitting the live server? Also, I really thought we might get a respec since deepstone blessing is impacted the most. Any chance of this happening some point in the future... not in the next mod?
Why are people even complaining about healing depression? Well, besides how badly it hurts the DC's. Still, I personally think it was a decent change that could have some minor adjustments. Anyway, removing healing depression would make tenacity extremely effective for players with good healing abilities/attacks. Think about it, have you ever been in a situation where the the opponent can outheal your all of your dps? Or when a DC just heals their team to full health in 2-3 seconds and camps at a point? Of course! Combine with tenacity, they can become even more difficult to kill. Fights would just become increasingly drawn-out or unbalance as usual.
its kinda a greenly talk to think healing was the biggest problem in PvP.
the worst think in pvp is the gwf class. i played each class except GWF and HR in PvP and i have to say, u can easily make it to the high scorer in a game with a normal equip. ofc if u play against a premade team or a guy is in ur or enemy team with r10 overall he will kicks ur ***, but this is the matter of having better enchs.
i think everybody knows that even a 13k GWF can stay alive against 2-3 ppl for several seconds, prop killing one of them in time befor going down. but instead of fixing only GWFs they fixed EACH class (or nerfed)
they invented so many stuff, ELO system, bug fixing AND healing depression. a good dev team just would invented one stuff by time to see how it works in live.
and when i read "well, besides how badly it hurts the DC's... blah blah its good"
so start playing a DC and dont be so greenly. DCs SUCKS now MORE then ever.
It is the only thing that ignores it, that i know of unless aimed shot does the same... And this needs to change. The mere fact that it can take nearly ANYONE from half to dead, is kind of stupid. This was the entire point of tenacity.
Tenacity should not be ignored by Shocking Execution
1. The way I see it, Tenacity is a means to increase survivability of all characters/builds proportionately by a certain amount.
2. Letting certain powers simply ignore this, goes directly against the prime objective of its implementation in the first place
3. It only fuels imbalance toward certain builds and Paragon path choices. Who is going to choose a WK build when the MI, an already blessed with so many crutches in PvP, now also has a Daily that is not only undodgeable, nor deflect/defensable, kills outright or deals massive damage, and on top even ignores Tenacity?
4. Tenacity should simply be a PvP spec/trait that is solid on all characters, IMO.
why is it 2 million... the only thing you need is an armor enchant. the rest is utility...
You can just make a normal for pve and use the whatever enchant you have for pve now for pvp....
a normal is not 2 million
I agree with brotherhope here, some of us are kinda busy in rl. I for one, dont have the time to invest into getting a full set of special pvp gear just to feel adequate in my 4 daily fights - Ive barely gotten the pve gear I want( even with zen purchases), let alone the enchants for it. If you want pvp centric gameplay then perhaps a pvp server has to be added at some point to satisfy all those souls who need to kill other PCs in order to feel good. Mark my words forcing pvp specifics on everyone will alienate casual players with rl jobs and other time consuming activites who cant spent hours a day grinding away at content to farm AD.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I agree with brotherhope here, some of us are kinda busy in rl. I for one, dont have the time to invest into getting a full set of special pvp gear just to feel adequate in my 4 daily fights - Ive barely gotten the pve gear I want( even with zen purchases), let alone the enchants for it. If you want pvp centric gameplay then perhaps a pvp server has to be added at some point to satisfy all those souls who need to kill other PCs in order to feel good. Mark my words forcing pvp speficis on everyone will alienate casual players with rl jobs and other time consuming activites who cant spent hours a day grinding away at content to farm AD.
I hate to be the one to break it to you but the entire point of playing a MMO is that it is supposed to be a long term thing , you aren't supposed to get the best gear and enchantments and artifacts in a few weeks , or even a few months for that matter ,it is supposed to take a long time to get geared up.
I hate to be the one to break it to you but the entire point of playing a MMO is that it is supposed to be a long term thing , you aren't supposed to get the best gear and enchantments and artifacts in a few weeks , or even a few months for that matter ,it is supposed to take a long time to get geared up.
Excuse me but " a long time to get geared up " for what ? Hmm, for what ? I already sit at 14K without even 1 full set and I can do any content the game has to offer. You do end game content to get the best gear and then what do you do - what is the content after endgame ? So, and I dont hate to be the one to break it to you, the 'getting there' is what counts, once there its pretty much over. Its about the ride: long - ok, fun - even better. The ride will get bumpy I know, but at least I'll be the one choosing the direction and the pace. Once an outside force starts interfering with that it becomes an issue.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited March 2014
There isnt much of a real journey in Neverwinter to 60, end game is about getting perfect enchants really, Im at 14k gear score on my Dc, Im no where near end gamish.. I can run all the DD's , but im pretty far away from having high end enchants really.
In terms of Post Patch PVP, DCs were hit hard, they really are not that fun to play anymore, the weakest class in PVP right now.
I dont care about healing depression as much as I do about DCs getting both Righteousness and HD together, its too much on one class, remove righteousness from the game. That would at least help a little. When you have HD, Righteousness and Shadowtouched, you are basically healing yourself for 10's and 20's.. its useless, no other class gets nerfed that hard. We already were a weak DPS class, now cant self heal at all, that pretty much leaves DCs in a role as a buffer/debuffer and secondary healer. Its not the best PVP Ive ever played with thats for sure.
They need to rework the DC to make it viable in terms of fun for the majority of players again.
Absolutely agree, i heavily spec into healing and giving up any thing i can to do maximum healing. I even get a vorpal to boost my healing (original using plaguefire). However, even i sacrifice so much, my healing is reduced to a significant noticeable large amount. Clerics in NW got laughable dps ability, and is a VERY CREATIVE HEALER WHO CANT HEAL HIMSELF AND OTHERS!!!! Why not make dps classes unable to dps, tank classes die one-shoted since you make a healer that cannot heal??
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Absolutely agree, i heavily spec into healing and giving up any thing i can to do maximum healing. I even get a vorpal to boost my healing (original using plaguefire). However, even i sacrifice so much, my healing is reduced to a significant noticeable large amount. Clerics in NW got laughable dps ability, and is a VERY CREATIVE HEALER WHO CANT HEAL HIMSELF AND OTHERS!!!! Why not make dps classes unable to dps, tank classes die one-shoted since you make a healer that cannot heal??
Simply put, we could already do our new main role pre patch, buff/debuff WHILE effectively healing and helping to hold nodes.
New meta, strips us of 2/3rds of what we would offer to a team.
YA. DC now = Destroy Casually.
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tilinifMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited March 2014
Tenacity: way too low, cant see any effect of it, am not even sure if it realy helps. Might be better to stay with non pvp gear.
Comments
Woops, Double post
There is a bit of confusion here, so I wanted to clear it up bit. "Control Resist" in most cases *only affects duration*. The exception to this is Knocks and Repels, who have their distances reduced. However there is currently a bug that allows you to Deflect incoming controls as well, which is giving you much more resistance to controls than is intended on average. We are currently investigating fixes to this bug, and I don't have an eta on it at this time, but we are aware of the issue and are working on a fix. This should prove to be a huge QoL improvement for all control effects. They will be much more consistent against targets because they will not suddenly have an additional 50% (or 75%) resistance applied to them suddenly.
Thanks all for your continued feedback!
Thanks for laying it out for me (us). You are the bestest dev.
#dev_Crush
If I would have not invested that much AD in artifacts, I'd level a halfing now myself. Nothing else makes sense. I could go 21 Con, and wear more offensive jewelry and get more ArP, all on top of the racial bonus.
And I'd be small too! (and ugly
Probably in the end I would do that, cause they have too many advantages for PvP. Feeling pretty suboptimal with a tiefling.
Thanks a lot for confirming our observations. Looking forward to the fix. Probably halfling would still be best for PvP, but at least the advantages won't be so significant, and classes with huge deflect might be a bit easier to CC.
Actually this begs the question;
What causes players to resist prones?
Let's rephrase that.
What causes prones (and other cc effects) to completely miss a target in pvp (0 animation, 0 duration)?
Enemy uses something that prones or otherwise ccs me.
Nothing happens (and I did not deflect the damage)
My (and stox's) theory has always been that this is due to the Halfling racial.
=============
EDIT: Here's some data
Yes = the character having skills used against them did not receive any cc effect (as in yes, they resisted)
No = the opposite! This is to show that this phenomenon has nothing to do with deflecting. Please note that the distance of push from repel was decreased when deflected, as Chris suggests it should be.
Race of target is Halfling unless otherwise noted.
Yes & Deflected[Combat (Self)] vedril deals 620 (1827) Arcane to you with Repel.
No & Deflected[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! vedril deals 1454 (4288) Arcane to you with Repel.
Yes & Deflected[Combat (Self)] vedril deals 644 (1900) Arcane to you with Repel.
Yes & Not Deflected[Combat (Self)] vedril deals 1228 (1811) Arcane to you with Repel.
No & Deflected[Combat (Party)] Seren deals 1378 (2552) Physical to vedril with Takedown.
Yes & Not Deflected [Say] Seren@sirindra: [22:26] [Combat (Self)] Your Frontline Surge deals 3714 Physical to vedril.
Yes & Not Deflected (Tiefling) [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! vedril deals 3765 (4132) Arcane to you with Repel.
Again, this shows that completely resisting (ie - no fall down animation vs. prone) a cc effect has nothing to do with deflecting. This also shows that non-halflings can do it too, so I will update my theory to dwarf/halfing racials and WIS.
Also, while we are on the subject of odd cc behavior, are you aware that a critical attack that adds cc increases the effect of said cc?
Examples:
Entangling Force will tick 1 extra tick.
Repel will push at least 50% further.
etc, etc...
===========
Dear mods, this may not seem like tenacity based discussion to you, but I'm sure it is relevant to Chris and his team for proper balancing of tenacity.
Also, I like to think sepia is adorable:p
A Dual Spec where you get to reroll stats for each spec (completely as you described and as it was requested a few times in the forums already) would be awesome. I'd have my PvP spec with highest Con I could get and PvE with Int/Cha each with their feats&powers and would be happy.
Also I have to admit that your halfling is cute
you seem to be overlooking the possibility that the roll for deflecting -damage- and the roll for deflecting -CC- could be entirely separate rolls right now. this would easily explain why the CC portion of an attack can be deflected when the damage portion isn't (thus, the attack appears not deflected to you)
why is it 2 million... the only thing you need is an armor enchant. the rest is utility...
You can just make a normal for pve and use the whatever enchant you have for pve now for pvp....
a normal is not 2 million
About that healing... if it's going to come later what are clerics going to do now since healing depression is hitting the live server? Also, I really thought we might get a respec since deepstone blessing is impacted the most. Any chance of this happening some point in the future... not in the next mod?
the worst think in pvp is the gwf class. i played each class except GWF and HR in PvP and i have to say, u can easily make it to the high scorer in a game with a normal equip. ofc if u play against a premade team or a guy is in ur or enemy team with r10 overall he will kicks ur ***, but this is the matter of having better enchs.
i think everybody knows that even a 13k GWF can stay alive against 2-3 ppl for several seconds, prop killing one of them in time befor going down. but instead of fixing only GWFs they fixed EACH class (or nerfed)
they invented so many stuff, ELO system, bug fixing AND healing depression. a good dev team just would invented one stuff by time to see how it works in live.
and when i read "well, besides how badly it hurts the DC's... blah blah its good"
so start playing a DC and dont be so greenly. DCs SUCKS now MORE then ever.
I agree with brotherhope here, some of us are kinda busy in rl. I for one, dont have the time to invest into getting a full set of special pvp gear just to feel adequate in my 4 daily fights - Ive barely gotten the pve gear I want( even with zen purchases), let alone the enchants for it. If you want pvp centric gameplay then perhaps a pvp server has to be added at some point to satisfy all those souls who need to kill other PCs in order to feel good. Mark my words forcing pvp specifics on everyone will alienate casual players with rl jobs and other time consuming activites who cant spent hours a day grinding away at content to farm AD.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I hate to be the one to break it to you but the entire point of playing a MMO is that it is supposed to be a long term thing , you aren't supposed to get the best gear and enchantments and artifacts in a few weeks , or even a few months for that matter ,it is supposed to take a long time to get geared up.
Excuse me but " a long time to get geared up " for what ? Hmm, for what ? I already sit at 14K without even 1 full set and I can do any content the game has to offer. You do end game content to get the best gear and then what do you do - what is the content after endgame ? So, and I dont hate to be the one to break it to you, the 'getting there' is what counts, once there its pretty much over. Its about the ride: long - ok, fun - even better. The ride will get bumpy I know, but at least I'll be the one choosing the direction and the pace. Once an outside force starts interfering with that it becomes an issue.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
In terms of Post Patch PVP, DCs were hit hard, they really are not that fun to play anymore, the weakest class in PVP right now.
I dont care about healing depression as much as I do about DCs getting both Righteousness and HD together, its too much on one class, remove righteousness from the game. That would at least help a little. When you have HD, Righteousness and Shadowtouched, you are basically healing yourself for 10's and 20's.. its useless, no other class gets nerfed that hard. We already were a weak DPS class, now cant self heal at all, that pretty much leaves DCs in a role as a buffer/debuffer and secondary healer. Its not the best PVP Ive ever played with thats for sure.
They need to rework the DC to make it viable in terms of fun for the majority of players again.
Simply put, we could already do our new main role pre patch, buff/debuff WHILE effectively healing and helping to hold nodes.
New meta, strips us of 2/3rds of what we would offer to a team.
YA. DC now = Destroy Casually.