I'm a BiS GWF and there is nothing stopping me now from killing a CW, their freeze duration is less than a 1 sec and there is no problem resisting their CC without even using my unstoppable.
They can't even chain their combos anymore because every time they try to "entangle" i just snap out of it very quickly and charge into them, not to mention how repel is now completely useless. I think tenacity is good tanking wise, but the CC resist part was way too far.
I suggest, as stox said, adding a "Control resistance ignored" stat on the CW gear.
In fact, after i pvp in preview for more than 5 times, i come to a conclusion. DC must sacrifice something more in future pvp instead of giving up damage only (now on live). If you want to heal like normal (like non-healing depression), go pure faithful path, increasing heal amount by 50% to compensate the -50% healing debuff, but then you are extremely squishy, losing divinity gain feats and several best-to-take feats and yeah, you can be two-shotted by anyone even with full T2.5 epics and max tenacity. Alternately, go pure righteous, doing tons of dodge to avoid damage, failed to self heal enough after taking damage and do absolutely nothing to save a teammate from dying, resulting in tanking 15 sec more before you die, even faster if you are tanking 2 or more. Sad DC. SAD!!!
mod note: folks, posts are moderated because they do not follow the forum rules or the guidelines set forth in this thread multiple times by gentlemancrush and the community team. this thread has been designated for feedback of actual playtime of pvp on the preview shard. all forum rules still apply. that means posts directed to the developers, to the community staff, the discussion of moderation or non-constructive feedback has been removed and speculative posts have been moved to the tenacity discussion thread.
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Huh, this is news to me... I never tested this that way however.
Lets do LIVE math, forget tenacity for right now...
So 1000 dmg 25% arp bronzewood hit against a 50% DR target you do.
50% DR - 25% ARP = (1-25%)*1000 = 750 dmg then multiply THAT by 1.16% for 870 final damage? Versus my way would have been
50% - 25% - 16% = (1-9%)*1000 = 910 damage? Wow well thats a significant variable I was not aware of and it seems bronzewood is less powerful than I thought.... Ill have to test this...
How would bronze/GPF then stack in with tenacity? Before or After? My understanding is it would be before...
I have tested with bronzewood. It is a flat dmg increase as in.
If enemy have 10% DR that are in effcted after all armorpen/debuff. P. Bronzewood would negate 10% of it and add you 6% dmg. So you will be doing 106% dmg to your target.
If enemy have 20% DR, Bronzewood negate 16% of it. So you do 96% dmg.
Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Awesome!
I have absolutely no problem healing or keeping myself healed in PvE. None. Typically I am the last person to go down even though it is not uncommon for me to be the offtank. However I do detest the fact we have to have Astral Shield because there is absolutely no way to effectively heal without it but that is a different matter.
Within PvP on the live servers a train wreck doesn't begin to accurately describe what my experience on a cleric is. I became a suicide bomber basically because unless you have a very specific PvP oriented build with teammates who are also similarly equipped to PvP I have better results acting as live bait than as a healer or a combatant.
I call myself a lightning rod. My hope is they spend all their big stuff on me so that my team mates survive a bit longer. Somehow I don't think that's what you guys intended for a 'support' role.
And to be brutally honest I probably will never touch my cleric in PvP ever again before these changes go live let alone after unless some major changes are made to clerics in PvP. I love my cleric oin PvE. My only complaint is the requirement to rely on Astral Shield but I detest playing him in PvP and the changes as described will make me hate it even more.
Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target.
Thank you.
CWs depend on that CC to stay alive. We don't have any proper escape mechanics, and our 3 dodges even fully feated and with stamina boon, are not nearly enough. Other classes can go CC immune for extended periods of time as well and still get to us fast, closing gaps is not an issue.
So our CC must be top of the line if the CW is to be anything else but a sitting duck.
The fact that ArP is broken on many skills we use in PvP is not helping either, by the way.
Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
I am a BiS CW and my current CC on the live shard is just enough to survive a little against equally-geared players. As some of the attacks are deflected and certain races have some decent CC resistance as a basic feature, it leads to my certain death in about 1 out of 4 rotations (CWs are very squishy, have only 3 dodges, and lots of other classes' encounters cannot be predicted or dodged at all). The slightest additional CC resistance from Tenacity will kill any CW, as we already have a very hard time surviving. I've been constantly PvP'ing since beta and I can assure you: when it comes to CWs, the current situation is the absolute line for CC resistance (and everything else). The CW is by far the weakest class in PvP (as squishy as TRs, but no stealth or ITC; lowest single target damage if you don't count DCs; less dodges than HR; our dailies can be dodged) and any change coming up that affects it negatively, especially the CC resistance, will just kill the desire to play this class.
CW's CC should not be affected by Tenacity! Not even by 1 %. It's our certain death (that we already have; if you look at PvP scoreboards, you'll see that CWs usually have the most deaths: more than twice of the next class' death count). We are an assist class that has always been the weakest in PvP. Please don't kill our class completely.
Horrible update. The TR got a damage nerf. Does it get reduced? NO. The GWF too. The HR too. Oh and the healing of GWF and GF got reduced by 50%. Does they get anything extra? NO! Only the CW get a extra BonBon.
When you finally will fix the broken At-will Ray of Frost CC through Block?
Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
You should try to do something that will make healing a double edged sword so that DCs will think about how and when to heal rather then just spam it and watch as their healing overcome incoming dps as it does right now.
In some other games with succesful pvp healing has a price, a resource that can be drained by a target if it takes appropriate actions. Maybe if you calibrate healing effectiveness based on the DC's status such as when the DC is controlled healing in progress drops significantly. It will require DCs to not just gear well but also use their brains.
They do. When someone deflects my Repel, he doesn't get pushed. When someone deflects my Ice Knife, he doesn't fall on the ground when it hits. When I deflect a Frontline Surge, I don't fall on the ground. I just keep running. Deflection leads to CC immunity.
And I never said anything about other classes. The TR damage nerf is terrible. Should GWFs get nerfed? Hell yeah, especially the damage! Should they change anything about DCs? Maybe make them less tanky. But healing depression? Terrible. HRs are fine. Maybe fix the roots when it comes to Unstoppable. GFs are fine as they are. Removing their chain CC is gonna destroy them.
Well, I'm not a supporter of Tenacity. Matchmaking and some new content would've done it. The classes are mostly balanced. Just reduce the GWF's damage a little and give him a proper Unstoppable (against HR roots).
Well, I'm not a supporter of Tenacity. Matchmaking and some new content would've done it. The classes are mostly balanced. Just reduce the GWF's damage a little and give him a proper Unstoppable (against HR roots).
I am too not a supporter of Tenacity. Just as you said Matchmaking and new content would have done fine. I dont feel GWF's need reduced damage however. I do feel Sentinal needs some reduced damage and front line surge needs scaling to the GWF. (along with the entire Swordmaster path for GF's )
Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Chris,
Thanks a ton for this update. Small updates like this go a LONG way with morale on the forums and in game. I really appreciate this.
These two issues are pretty major issues n PVP. It sounds like this will be a great middle Ground here for CWs so atleast if they land a control its a pretty decent control.
for DC healing, it sounds like you have a plan and are working on it, nice to hear! This makes it sounds like all of these changes wont hit live anytime soon, and that also Module 3 is a long way off. As long as you guys keep the communication up, I dont think people mind waiting as much.
BTW, STRONGLY suggest you re-visit the T2.5 pvp sets as the T2 sets are better. Im not sure who designed the sets (not visually cause its awesome that way) but the stats are just horrible...
[Sentinel's Grim Helm] _____________________[Sentinel's Profound Helm] +454 Hit Points___________________________+266 Hit Points
+113 Power______________________________+120 Power
+515 Defense_____________________________+525 Defense
+251 Deflect_____________________________+255 Deflect
+162 Tenacity____________________________+167 Tenacity
2 of Set Bonus: +1800 Hit Points ___________2 of Set Bonus: +463 Critical Strike
This makes no sense to me. The T2.5 has about HALF the HP? AND the set bonus is crit over HP? Who would chose this?
Another example: Tier 2: ________________________________Tier 2.5:
[Grim Helm Indom Champion] _____________[Profound Helm Tactician]
+454 Hit Points___________________________+479 Hit Points
+113 Power______________________________+120 Power
+548 Defense_____________________________+559 Defense +251 Deflect ____________________________+255 RECOVERY
+162 Tenacity____________________________+167 Tenacity
2 of Set Bonus: +450 Defense________________2 of Set Bonus: +463 Defense
This makes no sense to me. The T2.5 has NO deflect but replaces that with Recovery?! For PVP?! Who would chose this? You are giving up 1144 Deflect (roughly 10%) for what? slightly shorter CDs? Just makes no sense...
MANY MANY other situations like this where the sets just dont give much....
1) Weapons should be included in set bonuses
- OR -
2) Should be able to mix n match sets to ALL share the same set bonus
- OR -
3) Sets should be revisited and more attractive choices than the current ones...
You should try to do something that will make healing a double edged sword so that DCs will think about how and when to heal rather then just spam it and watch as their healing overcome incoming dps as it does right now.
In some other games with succesful pvp healing has a price, a resource that can be drained by a target if it takes appropriate actions. Maybe if you calibrate healing effectiveness based on the DC's status such as when the DC is controlled healing in progress drops significantly. It will require DCs to not just gear well but also use their brains.
Show me how DC heals without brain. Are you even in pvp community? Go try pvp as a DC and you will know our pain. And now when the devs said they will start to help us to buff our heals you want them to decrease our heal amount? People is complaining that a healer cannot heal effectively than personal regen and you still want to nerf it? We clerics all uses single target skill like HW and Ex which required accuracy and timing to heal. Do you know if we brainlessly cast they wont affect our allies but only us who get the effect? We do tons of dodge and got to hold ctrl to lock down target to prevent lost of target and our HW is even bugged, it cannot be casted in ctrl lock!! Stop qq-ing about DC healer brainless. If your suggestion is taken, all DC will be controlled 100% of the time as we always draw aggro and our heals become worse than with current Healing Depression Debuff and some ShadowTouched from enemy. Stop giving brainless idea please.
Remove the control resist from tenacity stat. Seriously, there is no point if it.
Resilience is supposed to be damage reduction vs opposing players. Thats it. As people will start using Tenacity/Resilience gear they wont be killed during a prone anyways, so why would you add that as well, blows my mind.
Also making it apply only 66% to CWs and not to other classes tell me that you are just not prepared for adding this stat. So just hold it off with the control resist, and add damage- and crit-reduction like any normal person would have.
They do. When someone deflects my Repel, he doesn't get pushed. When someone deflects my Ice Knife, he doesn't fall on the ground when it hits. When I deflect a Frontline Surge, I don't fall on the ground. I just keep running. Deflection leads to CC immunity.
And I never said anything about other classes. The TR damage nerf is terrible. Should GWFs get nerfed? Hell yeah, especially the damage! Should they change anything about DCs? Maybe make them less tanky. But healing depression? Terrible. HRs are fine. Maybe fix the roots when it comes to Unstoppable. GFs are fine as they are. Removing their chain CC is gonna destroy them.
Well, I'm not a supporter of Tenacity. Matchmaking and some new content would've done it. The classes are mostly balanced. Just reduce the GWF's damage a little and give him a proper Unstoppable (against HR roots).
I recorded a video that show that deflected attacks doesn't reduce CC duration. A TR that deflected BR, get the fly and the bottom kiss. Same TR deflected FS and again, kiss the bottom and go up like a non-deflected FS.
If this isn't enough. My char have over 24% deflection, so i will end up ~1/4 of all CC thrown at me got decreased NOT. I can count on two hands the cases that Im not fully CCed(pushed back a bit from FS/BR for example) like the Dwarf Race show on her inherit abilities.
You know, that the duration of lie down and CC itself is reduced on FS and such CC-like powers? This can happen that you stand up more earlier as you thought, that you think 'Oh i resist it with deflection!'.
Remove the control resist from tenacity stat. Seriously, there is no point if it.
Resilience is supposed to be damage reduction vs opposing players. Thats it. As people will start using Tenacity/Resilience gear they wont be killed during a prone anyways, so why would you add that as well, blows my mind.
Also making it apply only 66% to CWs and not to other classes tell me that you are just not prepared for adding this stat. So just hold it off with the control resist, and add damage- and crit-reduction like any normal person would have.
I think you misread the post so Ill just make it clear here:
CC resist is MAINLY for the duration and resist of prones, making other encounter options slightly more viable in pvp and reducing the chances someone is killed in a "Prone Lock". Control Wizards will not have any better chance of LANDING the prone (meaning the resist chance is still the same) but for DURATION only the CW controls ignore 66% of the tenacity only effects. I would also like to point out its only tenacity effects not Race or Wisdom(CC resist) effects.
So a halfling (+10% resist) with 20 Wisdom (+10% resist) who has 20% Tenacity (meaning 40% CC resist) will STILL have a 40% chance to resist, but the duration is now only affected by 1/3rd of the 20% tenacity rather than the entire 20%.
I do, however, partially agree that the CC resist doesnt make a TON of sense since they shortened alot of the prone times so I guess well see...
I think you misread the post so Ill just make it clear here:
CC resist is MAINLY for the duration and resist of prones, making other encounter options slightly more viable in pvp and reducing the chances someone is killed in a "Prone Lock". Control Wizards will not have any better chance of LANDING the prone (meaning the resist chance is still the same) but for DURATION only the CW controls ignore 66% of the tenacity only effects. I would also like to point out its only tenacity effects not Race or Wisdom(CC resist) effects.
So a halfling (+10% resist) with 20 Wisdom (+10% resist) who has 20% Tenacity (meaning 40% CC resist) will STILL have a 40% chance to resist, but the duration is now only affected by 1/3rd of the 20% tenacity rather than the entire 20%.
I do, however, partially agree that the CC resist doesnt make a TON of sense since they shortened alot of the prone times so I guess well see...
Well i understood, but my writing is not all that best.
I still believe they should not bring cc-reduction into tenacity stat, and just keep it as a damage reduction stat
We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
....
We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
....
It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
.....
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
I assume these type of comments mean they are hard at work on Module 3 (which I am surprised has not been announced yet. Although Mods 1 and 2 were set to release and had be planned from the beginning so maybe thats why Mod 3 is much longer.
After playing with these changes on the PTR (the PVP Tenacity changes) I do have to say I think this is a step in the right direction. No more 15 min+ GWF on GWF fights. No more 4v1 GWF fights... The game feels ALOT more balanced with regards to PVP and I think these CW changes will help some (I think they should ignore 66% of CC resist as well as the duration from tenacity) so the CC resist really only works on prones (like shard).
I am STILL concerned that even after these changes, there have been no new content releases with regards to pvp, AND the PVP lack of gear choice is still a MAJOR issue as I have outlined above.
Chris,
If you see this I hope you guys are going to give us more pvp MAPS and GAMETYPES as that honestly will help the pvp community out ALOT! I think with a few changes to tenacity (like the CW thing and gear sets) along with this rating system and new maps, it could be HUGE!
I would still challenge your thinking on not having Foundry PVP and understand you dont want it to tear apart the community, however I think having a limited time of day to play Pvp maps, like Foundry Hour would be the best of both worlds.... Just saying...
Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Orb of Imposition is an almost useless power right now. Wouldn't be better if the power ignore the control resist by 34%+33%+33%?
So we would have to choose between a damage passive or control passive, and CONTROL Wizards could still honor their name.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Is that worded poorly, or are you only changing the control duration, not resist?
Only asking because most people that I play with think that the issue is the % chance to resist, not the duration once they land a cc.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Is that worded poorly, or are you only changing the control duration, not resist?
Only asking because most people that I play with think that the issue is the % chance to resist, not the duration once they land a cc.
Considering the fact that an entangling last a fraction of a second on Preview even with Orb of Imposition and full arcane stacks, I'd say duration is also an issue.
But resists are just as important. Pretty frustrating as a CW seeing your only prone being rendered useless and so on.
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
Yep, duration only, not resist. Going to be a wild ride.
I recorded a video that show that deflected attacks doesn't reduce CC duration. A TR that deflected BR, get the fly and the bottom kiss. Same TR deflected FS and again, kiss the bottom and go up like a non-deflected FS.
If this isn't enough. My char have over 24% deflection, so i will end up ~1/4 of all CC thrown at me got decreased NOT. I can count on two hands the cases that Im not fully CCed(pushed back a bit from FS/BR for example) like the Dwarf Race show on her inherit abilities.
You know, that the duration of lie down and CC itself is reduced on FS and such CC-like powers? This can happen that you stand up more earlier as you thought, that you think 'Oh i resist it with deflection!'.
I recorded one myself, rather long time ago (feel free to check it on my channel*). I assume it's relevant again, in terms of upcoming CC changes.
It's not an ITC, it's not a deflect, it happens from time to time with every CC ability, not just EF. Honestly, I have no clue what is it, since I can't track it with ACT (ACT doesn't provide info on CC, as many of you know) or see any consistent pattern with my naked eye. But I'm certain there IS a specific codition when it occurs, since it's just a program code, not a fu***ing magic
Personally, I wold like to see some dev's response on this, since this bug (???) is rather severe.
Orb of Imposition is an almost useless power right now. Wouldn't be better if the power ignore the control immunity by 34%+33%+33%?
So we would have to choose between a damage passive or control passive, and CONTROL Wizards could still honor their name.
From what i've seen how immunity/resistances work in this game this would be ridiculous change. Damage immunity, for example, is not an immunity, but just hell-of-a-lot damage resistance - remember old soulforged or dodge vs old tenes or shoking exec? - i'm not 100% sure, but somewhere around 80%. It's enough to reduce incoming (normal, arpen included) damage to zero, but not enough to protect you from shoking exec, which ignores resistance.
Now imagine, CC resist/immunity working the same? This change will just make wiazrds to ignore Unstoppable and ITC, and more so, Boss CC immunity.
(Well, i would like this, though, LOL )
EDIT (changed link)
* - beware kids!!! some of the videos on this channel may contain mature content, use at your own risk!!!
I recorded one myself, rather long time ago (feel free to check it here). I assume it's relevant again, in terms of upcoming CC changes.
It's not an ITC, it's not a deflect, it happens from time to time with every CC ability, not just EF. Honestly, I have no clue what is it, since I can't track it with ACT (ACT doesn't provide info on CC, as many of you know) or see any consistent pattern with my naked eye. But I'm certain there IS a specific codition when it occurs, since it's just a program code, not a fu***ing magic
well... about this video, i saw your EF's deflected.. such as the chill strike did 0.~ sec stun on the first half.. and on my modest knowledge, everytime ur CC is deflected the duration/CC by itself is cuted in some huge amount or even doing nothing like prones (shard,FS) etc...
Damage immunity, for example, is not an immunity, but just hell-of-a-lot damage resistance - remember old soulforged or dodge vs old tenes or shoking exec? - i'm not 100% sure, but somewhere around 80%. It's enough to reduce incoming (normal, arpen included) damage to zero, but not enough to protect you from shoking exec, which ignores resistance.
Now imagine, CC resist/immunity working the same? This change will just make wiazrds to ignore Unstoppable and ITC, and more so, Boss CC immunity.
Well I meant the status of CC resist, not the immunity xD sorry.
well... about this video, i saw your EF's deflected.. such as the chill strike did 0.~ sec stun on the first half.. and on my modest knowledge, everytime ur CC is deflected the duration/CC by itself is cuted in some huge amount or even doing nothing like prones (shard,FS) etc...
Well, yea, it would be a good explanation, but I just had a feeling, it happens way less often, than deflect could possibly affect it. I guess it's been mentioned already - like if your target has 20% deflect this bug doesn't occur 20% of times. But still more often, than WIS bonus would allow it to.
I may be wrong, though. But even than, devs could clarify how deflect works. It's not stated in deflect description it affects CC.
............
Speaking of tenacity CC reduction: I still think this idea is totally absurd and even noted wizard-specific change is not fixing it. It's not even a fix - instead of plugging up a hole in a sinking boat you just trying to dip out a water out of it. You already have a reduced CC durations for PvP, don't you? EF, for example, lasts 1.5-2s compared to 7-10 (?) in PvE. If you think it's not enough why you just wont adjust it slightly? Assuming average tenacity gonna be 20% - reduce it by 20% for everyone, except wizards. Since you planning those 66% tenacity CC bonus ignore, make it 6.5% for us.
Why do you even need this tenacity CC reduction bonus at all? :eek:
Hey guys! We have been following the feedback and we wanted to let you guys know we are making a change to improve QoL for Control Wizards in PVP with Tenacity.
Control Wizards now ignore 66% of a target's Tenacity for the purposes of calculating control durations on a target.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Nice. Its a first step. Not sure if its enough tho. The duration could be a problem too.
Considering the fact that an entangling last a fraction of a second on Preview even with Orb of Imposition and full arcane stacks, I'd say duration is also an issue.
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Considering the fact that an entangling last a fraction of a second on Preview even with Orb of Imposition and full arcane stacks, I'd say duration is also an issue.
But resists are just as important. Pretty frustrating as a CW seeing your only prone being rendered useless and so on.
Just thinking about all those DC Halflings staring at CWs as they try to get one entangle off and those GWFS...
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CW can't control anything anymore.
I'm a BiS GWF and there is nothing stopping me now from killing a CW, their freeze duration is less than a 1 sec and there is no problem resisting their CC without even using my unstoppable.
They can't even chain their combos anymore because every time they try to "entangle" i just snap out of it very quickly and charge into them, not to mention how repel is now completely useless. I think tenacity is good tanking wise, but the CC resist part was way too far.
I suggest, as stox said, adding a "Control resistance ignored" stat on the CW gear.
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I have tested with bronzewood. It is a flat dmg increase as in.
If enemy have 10% DR that are in effcted after all armorpen/debuff. P. Bronzewood would negate 10% of it and add you 6% dmg. So you will be doing 106% dmg to your target.
If enemy have 20% DR, Bronzewood negate 16% of it. So you do 96% dmg.
We wanted CW's to feel better about landing controls on targets, but didn't want to just widespread scale back the control resist people were getting because we wanted other classes to work harder to successfully control a target. We are making the above change for testing (I don't know exactly when you guys will be getting it, but hopefully in the near future here). Later down the road this will actually be listed as an innate power for wizards, but at this time we cannot do that so it has to wait
In regards to Cleric healing, we are carefully monitoring healing across the whole game, PVP included. We want to make Clerics feel better about trying to bring heals to a fight, but that is a much longer term change that has more repercussions. We are testing some things internally that should make Cleric healing read and feel better overall, but they aren't ready to be shared with the world yet as they still have a few rough edges.
Thank you all for your feedback! It is very difficult to respond directly to every post but we do read these threads and make changes based on your feedback.
Please keep the feedback coming!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Awesome!
I have absolutely no problem healing or keeping myself healed in PvE. None. Typically I am the last person to go down even though it is not uncommon for me to be the offtank. However I do detest the fact we have to have Astral Shield because there is absolutely no way to effectively heal without it but that is a different matter.
Within PvP on the live servers a train wreck doesn't begin to accurately describe what my experience on a cleric is. I became a suicide bomber basically because unless you have a very specific PvP oriented build with teammates who are also similarly equipped to PvP I have better results acting as live bait than as a healer or a combatant.
I call myself a lightning rod. My hope is they spend all their big stuff on me so that my team mates survive a bit longer. Somehow I don't think that's what you guys intended for a 'support' role.
And to be brutally honest I probably will never touch my cleric in PvP ever again before these changes go live let alone after unless some major changes are made to clerics in PvP. I love my cleric oin PvE. My only complaint is the requirement to rely on Astral Shield but I detest playing him in PvP and the changes as described will make me hate it even more.
Thank you.
CWs depend on that CC to stay alive. We don't have any proper escape mechanics, and our 3 dodges even fully feated and with stamina boon, are not nearly enough. Other classes can go CC immune for extended periods of time as well and still get to us fast, closing gaps is not an issue.
So our CC must be top of the line if the CW is to be anything else but a sitting duck.
The fact that ArP is broken on many skills we use in PvP is not helping either, by the way.
I am a BiS CW and my current CC on the live shard is just enough to survive a little against equally-geared players. As some of the attacks are deflected and certain races have some decent CC resistance as a basic feature, it leads to my certain death in about 1 out of 4 rotations (CWs are very squishy, have only 3 dodges, and lots of other classes' encounters cannot be predicted or dodged at all). The slightest additional CC resistance from Tenacity will kill any CW, as we already have a very hard time surviving. I've been constantly PvP'ing since beta and I can assure you: when it comes to CWs, the current situation is the absolute line for CC resistance (and everything else). The CW is by far the weakest class in PvP (as squishy as TRs, but no stealth or ITC; lowest single target damage if you don't count DCs; less dodges than HR; our dailies can be dodged) and any change coming up that affects it negatively, especially the CC resistance, will just kill the desire to play this class.
CW's CC should not be affected by Tenacity! Not even by 1 %. It's our certain death (that we already have; if you look at PvP scoreboards, you'll see that CWs usually have the most deaths: more than twice of the next class' death count). We are an assist class that has always been the weakest in PvP. Please don't kill our class completely.
Horrible update. The TR got a damage nerf. Does it get reduced? NO. The GWF too. The HR too. Oh and the healing of GWF and GF got reduced by 50%. Does they get anything extra? NO! Only the CW get a extra BonBon.
When you finally will fix the broken At-will Ray of Frost CC through Block?
You should try to do something that will make healing a double edged sword so that DCs will think about how and when to heal rather then just spam it and watch as their healing overcome incoming dps as it does right now.
In some other games with succesful pvp healing has a price, a resource that can be drained by a target if it takes appropriate actions.
Maybe if you calibrate healing effectiveness based on the DC's status such as when the DC is controlled healing in progress drops significantly. It will require DCs to not just gear well but also use their brains.
They do. When someone deflects my Repel, he doesn't get pushed. When someone deflects my Ice Knife, he doesn't fall on the ground when it hits. When I deflect a Frontline Surge, I don't fall on the ground. I just keep running. Deflection leads to CC immunity.
And I never said anything about other classes. The TR damage nerf is terrible. Should GWFs get nerfed? Hell yeah, especially the damage! Should they change anything about DCs? Maybe make them less tanky. But healing depression? Terrible. HRs are fine. Maybe fix the roots when it comes to Unstoppable. GFs are fine as they are. Removing their chain CC is gonna destroy them.
Well, I'm not a supporter of Tenacity. Matchmaking and some new content would've done it. The classes are mostly balanced. Just reduce the GWF's damage a little and give him a proper Unstoppable (against HR roots).
I am too not a supporter of Tenacity. Just as you said Matchmaking and new content would have done fine. I dont feel GWF's need reduced damage however. I do feel Sentinal needs some reduced damage and front line surge needs scaling to the GWF. (along with the entire Swordmaster path for GF's )
Chris,
Thanks a ton for this update. Small updates like this go a LONG way with morale on the forums and in game. I really appreciate this.
These two issues are pretty major issues n PVP. It sounds like this will be a great middle Ground here for CWs so atleast if they land a control its a pretty decent control.
for DC healing, it sounds like you have a plan and are working on it, nice to hear! This makes it sounds like all of these changes wont hit live anytime soon, and that also Module 3 is a long way off. As long as you guys keep the communication up, I dont think people mind waiting as much.
BTW, STRONGLY suggest you re-visit the T2.5 pvp sets as the T2 sets are better. Im not sure who designed the sets (not visually cause its awesome that way) but the stats are just horrible...
A perfect example is:
Tier 2: _________________________________Tier 2.5:
[Sentinel's Grim Helm] _____________________[Sentinel's Profound Helm]
+454 Hit Points___________________________+266 Hit Points
+113 Power______________________________+120 Power
+515 Defense_____________________________+525 Defense
+251 Deflect_____________________________+255 Deflect
+162 Tenacity____________________________+167 Tenacity
2 of Set Bonus: +1800 Hit Points ___________2 of Set Bonus: +463 Critical Strike
This makes no sense to me. The T2.5 has about HALF the HP? AND the set bonus is crit over HP? Who would chose this?
Another example:
Tier 2: ________________________________Tier 2.5:
[Grim Helm Indom Champion] _____________[Profound Helm Tactician]
+454 Hit Points___________________________+479 Hit Points
+113 Power______________________________+120 Power
+548 Defense_____________________________+559 Defense
+251 Deflect ____________________________+255 RECOVERY
+162 Tenacity____________________________+167 Tenacity
2 of Set Bonus: +450 Defense________________2 of Set Bonus: +463 Defense
This makes no sense to me. The T2.5 has NO deflect but replaces that with Recovery?! For PVP?! Who would chose this? You are giving up 1144 Deflect (roughly 10%) for what? slightly shorter CDs? Just makes no sense...
MANY MANY other situations like this where the sets just dont give much....
1) Weapons should be included in set bonuses
- OR -
2) Should be able to mix n match sets to ALL share the same set bonus
- OR -
3) Sets should be revisited and more attractive choices than the current ones...
Show me how DC heals without brain. Are you even in pvp community? Go try pvp as a DC and you will know our pain. And now when the devs said they will start to help us to buff our heals you want them to decrease our heal amount? People is complaining that a healer cannot heal effectively than personal regen and you still want to nerf it? We clerics all uses single target skill like HW and Ex which required accuracy and timing to heal. Do you know if we brainlessly cast they wont affect our allies but only us who get the effect? We do tons of dodge and got to hold ctrl to lock down target to prevent lost of target and our HW is even bugged, it cannot be casted in ctrl lock!! Stop qq-ing about DC healer brainless. If your suggestion is taken, all DC will be controlled 100% of the time as we always draw aggro and our heals become worse than with current Healing Depression Debuff and some ShadowTouched from enemy. Stop giving brainless idea please.
Resilience is supposed to be damage reduction vs opposing players. Thats it. As people will start using Tenacity/Resilience gear they wont be killed during a prone anyways, so why would you add that as well, blows my mind.
Also making it apply only 66% to CWs and not to other classes tell me that you are just not prepared for adding this stat. So just hold it off with the control resist, and add damage- and crit-reduction like any normal person would have.
I recorded a video that show that deflected attacks doesn't reduce CC duration. A TR that deflected BR, get the fly and the bottom kiss. Same TR deflected FS and again, kiss the bottom and go up like a non-deflected FS.
If this isn't enough. My char have over 24% deflection, so i will end up ~1/4 of all CC thrown at me got decreased NOT. I can count on two hands the cases that Im not fully CCed(pushed back a bit from FS/BR for example) like the Dwarf Race show on her inherit abilities.
You know, that the duration of lie down and CC itself is reduced on FS and such CC-like powers? This can happen that you stand up more earlier as you thought, that you think 'Oh i resist it with deflection!'.
I think you misread the post so Ill just make it clear here:
CC resist is MAINLY for the duration and resist of prones, making other encounter options slightly more viable in pvp and reducing the chances someone is killed in a "Prone Lock". Control Wizards will not have any better chance of LANDING the prone (meaning the resist chance is still the same) but for DURATION only the CW controls ignore 66% of the tenacity only effects. I would also like to point out its only tenacity effects not Race or Wisdom(CC resist) effects.
So a halfling (+10% resist) with 20 Wisdom (+10% resist) who has 20% Tenacity (meaning 40% CC resist) will STILL have a 40% chance to resist, but the duration is now only affected by 1/3rd of the 20% tenacity rather than the entire 20%.
I do, however, partially agree that the CC resist doesnt make a TON of sense since they shortened alot of the prone times so I guess well see...
Well i understood, but my writing is not all that best.
I still believe they should not bring cc-reduction into tenacity stat, and just keep it as a damage reduction stat
I assume these type of comments mean they are hard at work on Module 3 (which I am surprised has not been announced yet. Although Mods 1 and 2 were set to release and had be planned from the beginning so maybe thats why Mod 3 is much longer.
After playing with these changes on the PTR (the PVP Tenacity changes) I do have to say I think this is a step in the right direction. No more 15 min+ GWF on GWF fights. No more 4v1 GWF fights... The game feels ALOT more balanced with regards to PVP and I think these CW changes will help some (I think they should ignore 66% of CC resist as well as the duration from tenacity) so the CC resist really only works on prones (like shard).
I am STILL concerned that even after these changes, there have been no new content releases with regards to pvp, AND the PVP lack of gear choice is still a MAJOR issue as I have outlined above.
Chris,
If you see this I hope you guys are going to give us more pvp MAPS and GAMETYPES as that honestly will help the pvp community out ALOT! I think with a few changes to tenacity (like the CW thing and gear sets) along with this rating system and new maps, it could be HUGE!
I would still challenge your thinking on not having Foundry PVP and understand you dont want it to tear apart the community, however I think having a limited time of day to play Pvp maps, like Foundry Hour would be the best of both worlds.... Just saying...
So we would have to choose between a damage passive or control passive, and CONTROL Wizards could still honor their name.
Is that worded poorly, or are you only changing the control duration, not resist?
Only asking because most people that I play with think that the issue is the % chance to resist, not the duration once they land a cc.
Considering the fact that an entangling last a fraction of a second on Preview even with Orb of Imposition and full arcane stacks, I'd say duration is also an issue.
But resists are just as important. Pretty frustrating as a CW seeing your only prone being rendered useless and so on.
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I recorded one myself, rather long time ago (feel free to check it on my channel*). I assume it's relevant again, in terms of upcoming CC changes.
It's not an ITC, it's not a deflect, it happens from time to time with every CC ability, not just EF. Honestly, I have no clue what is it, since I can't track it with ACT (ACT doesn't provide info on CC, as many of you know) or see any consistent pattern with my naked eye. But I'm certain there IS a specific codition when it occurs, since it's just a program code, not a fu***ing magic
Personally, I wold like to see some dev's response on this, since this bug (???) is rather severe.
From what i've seen how immunity/resistances work in this game this would be ridiculous change. Damage immunity, for example, is not an immunity, but just hell-of-a-lot damage resistance - remember old soulforged or dodge vs old tenes or shoking exec? - i'm not 100% sure, but somewhere around 80%. It's enough to reduce incoming (normal, arpen included) damage to zero, but not enough to protect you from shoking exec, which ignores resistance.
Now imagine, CC resist/immunity working the same? This change will just make wiazrds to ignore Unstoppable and ITC, and more so, Boss CC immunity.
(Well, i would like this, though, LOL
EDIT (changed link)
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My videos
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Well I meant the status of CC resist, not the immunity xD sorry.
I may be wrong, though. But even than, devs could clarify how deflect works. It's not stated in deflect description it affects CC.
............
Speaking of tenacity CC reduction: I still think this idea is totally absurd and even noted wizard-specific change is not fixing it. It's not even a fix - instead of plugging up a hole in a sinking boat you just trying to dip out a water out of it. You already have a reduced CC durations for PvP, don't you? EF, for example, lasts 1.5-2s compared to 7-10 (?) in PvE. If you think it's not enough why you just wont adjust it slightly? Assuming average tenacity gonna be 20% - reduce it by 20% for everyone, except wizards. Since you planning those 66% tenacity CC bonus ignore, make it 6.5% for us.
Why do you even need this tenacity CC reduction bonus at all? :eek:
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Nice. Its a first step. Not sure if its enough tho. The duration could be a problem too.
Due to the fact everybody in PVP is halfling naow - NERF HALFINGS O:
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Just thinking about all those DC Halflings staring at CWs as they try to get one entangle off and those GWFS...