I am not using Deep Gash, just like I didn't use Stormstep/Forest in HR. It's wrong and it's obviously bad for PvP reasons. Who cares if CWs have a rival in PvE DPS...the thing is that all PvP heroes that have recently grabbed a perfect vorpal and skillshot people, are everywhere and they ruin our fun.
The ability is not working as it states, so I'd say that it's a bug. Of course if I had put money to get p.vorpals and 3 legendary artifacts I would scream for it not to be fixed. But I guess, that if the reason behind this is PvE damage boost, the developers should find something different to keep them up there without having the PvP experience ruined. Especially now that they are looking on PvP module.
If the next patch contains a fix on Deep Skill and also a Threatening Rush non-spam filter, it would be an amazing day.
So what you are saying, as long as they gut the class again, nerf it back into the joke it was pre mod 2, your ok with that?
We are finally seeing decent numbers from GWF for dps, they are FINALLY not ignorable in pvp (excluding tene spec) and you want then put back in their place at the back of the line?
I play a GWF, along with almost every other class. Prior to mod 2 i had quit them, they were worthless, unless someone felt sorry for you they would NEVER be in a dungeon, Non tene specced GWF were a joke in pvp (Hell as my TR i face tanked them knowing full well they could never touch me) my CW would never be touched by them because of their lack of a dodge and my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> high CC + DPS, so that left them fighting the unkillable DC or the ever-prone GF, all with ignorable damage.
Honestly my HR and TR eat the majority of GWF still even after the patch, you just have to modify your play style no more "ohh its a GWF ok just kill it face tank through everything look its dead *derp* " Yes my CW has problems with them especially with the artifacts and soul forge but you know what? my CW eats HR, DC, and TR.
If they are going to do a **** thing to the class as it stands right now then they need to add in just as many DPS buffs to the USED skills (not this increase damage to punishing charge BS that no one uses)
In short stop trying to nerf a class just because you cant derp them anymore. They are finally where they need to be so stop trying to make them worthless again.
So what are you saying is that something is either over the top or just useless?
That's bad design really. All I am saying is that they should find a way to make their PvE damage high, while keeping their PvP damage at bay. Simple as that. Maybe find a rotation rather than applying a lol-dot that requires you to stand in middle and spam AoE at wills ?
* Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So what are you saying is that something is either over the top or just useless?
That's bad design really. All I am saying is that they should find a way to make their PvE damage high, while keeping their PvP damage at bay. Simple as that. Maybe find a rotation rather than applying a lol-dot that requires you to stand in middle and spam AoE at wills ?
It's quite simple to increase PVE damage without impacting PVP, but it does revolve around spamming aoe at wills, which you would be doing with or without deep gash so i'm not sure what your point was.
FLS increased to 5 with nerfed damage, breaks even at 4 mobs hit, deals more damage at 5, so pvp/single target damage nerf, pve dmg increase (except fulmi/valindra fights). This change is already coming.
IBS needs a slight increase to its area impact so that it more reliably hits more targets if they are close together (instead of only if timed with a singularity)
Come and Get it, Not so Fast, and other encounter aoes need the target cap raised to 10. Double the damage of Mighty Leap so it can be used in PVE for anything other than a deep gash proc. Allow slam to crit and increase target cap to 10.
Wicked Strike and Weapon Master Strike needs target cap raised to 10. Also instead of slightly decreasing damage per target hit above one they should slightly increase damage per target hit above one to a max of 5. Basically roll group assault into the baseline at will, expand it to WMS as well. you can leave the feat as an extra bonus if you'd like.
Speed up the animations of wicked, WMS, and sure strike by 25%.
Those changes would make up for nearly all of deep gash dmg in PVE without really impacting dmg in PVP.
I would say remove target caps on at wills but the GWF doesn't have the survivability to manage it. and making them tankier to survive being hit by everything would definitely impact PVP.
I have enjoyed myself thinking quite a solution , I thought the following :
Destroyer 2.0 ( feature class )
Preventive care :
1 - Increase the time for 5/ 6 sec (but now the bonus resets ) .
2 - make only the wicked strike / reaping strike can create stacks ( 3 hits / 1 hit full charge) .
3 - modify " focused destroyer " for a bonus of anything that does not matter for now .
Now the good : the feat will act as a multiplier bonus standard , based on the amount of enemies that are struck simultaneously by the same stroke ( vs 5 or more , we have an increase of 62.5 % per head of damage atwills , Dailys and encounters ; critical or non-critical ) .
Ready : have a good nuke class, with longshots to cause trouble in pvp , and supposedly preserving the function of the rogue .
Bleed: I would like the top stack is equal to the current one, but the others were extremely reduced to compensate. If you can not , make it super sensitive destroyer 2.0 ( but with decreasing values ) .
Savage Advance ( after all, no longer single Dailys will be the same without bleed module 2 ) . The damage Cry preceding the gatotsu will be added to the damage of gatotsu ... considering the destroyer 2.0 , the damage of this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> should be high .
Honestly, i cant argue with fade for suggestions, FLS should not be nerfed but sadly to many people whining is causing it.
I would honestly even do something about reaping strike, IMO its a useless skill for gwf. There are if you are complaining that GWF are FINALLY doing the damage they SHOULD be as a dps class because of one skill then you should be SCREAMING for an increase/rework for all their other skills BEFORE you whine for a nerf.
NSF needs..... something, a slow is worthless pitiful damage and after you start getting decent aoe skills you never use it again
Mighty leap ... useful to proc deep gash or to glitch dungeons thats it
Restoring strike ... rarely used, damge is so so, single target only but provides a small heal and stam regen
Takedown ... PVP skill only EASILY avoidable, if you cant dodge this and are not already prone you are worthless and deserve to lose
Roar ... was the bread and butter of all GWF because of AP gain, very low damage push now
Daring shout ... decent for tanking GWF for for mitigation and AP gain, way to low target cap
Frontline surge ... OMG a GREAT skill after how many useless ones?!?! should stay as is, has a hit cap of 5 if they are stupid enough to nerf anything on this skill they should increase target cap to 10+ or its going to be useless
Come and get it... why would i bother with this? 5 target cap and limited area and limited pull make this a pathetic version of sing
Battle fury ... i have never even heard of a single GWF that uses this, for the most part seems worthless
Punishing charge ... Used only to run in between camps and die... garbage damage and adds nothing
IBS... Should NEVER be removed from a GWF bar, one of the VERY few usefull skills good damage (a bit small on hit area)
Would you like to look at dailies? since ohh wait they are so good right?
Avalanche of steel .. low damage but no target cap and prones... 4 seconds of doing no damage to anything while it goes off so drops your dps
Slam ... was good, no wasted time for animation garbage damage, unable to crit, 5 target limit.
savage advance... single target knockback and prone low damage for a daily
Indomitable strength good single target damage + prone and knockback for a daily still low vs other classes
so the only way for a GWF to be competetive is to use some of the semi broken skills, animation cancel + deep gash
NSF needs..... something, a slow is worthless pitiful damage and after you start getting decent aoe skills you never use it again
Mighty leap ... useful to proc deep gash or to glitch dungeons thats it
Restoring strike ... rarely used, damge is so so, single target only but provides a small heal and stam regen
Takedown ... PVP skill only EASILY avoidable, if you cant dodge this and are not already prone you are worthless and deserve to lose this is not easy to avoid, in fact it has serious range issues and can hit without even having a target, even if the GWF does miss, it's like 4 seconds before they can use it again
Roar ... was the bread and butter of all GWF because of AP gain, very low damage push now
Daring shout ... decent for tanking GWF for for mitigation and AP gain, way to low target cap
Frontline surge ... OMG a GREAT skill after how many useless ones?!?! should stay as is, has a hit cap of 5 if they are stupid enough to nerf anything on this skill they should increase target cap to 10+ or its going to be useless This skill is being changed from 3 targets to 5 targets as it is, so 25% damage nerf was more for pvp, it should actually be more effective in pve
Come and get it... why would i bother with this? 5 target cap and limited area and limited pull make this a pathetic version of sing You compare an encounter to a daily, and maybe use come and get it for the damage boost and pull mobs together for your IBS hit, or to troll control wizards knocking stuff off cliffs by pulling it back up. lol
Battle fury ... i have never even heard of a single GWF that uses this, for the most part seems worthless
Punishing charge ... Used only to run in between camps and die... garbage damage and adds nothing
IBS... Should NEVER be removed from a GWF bar, one of the VERY few usefull skills good damage (a bit small on hit area)
Would you like to look at dailies? since ohh wait they are so good right?
Avalanche of steel .. low damage but no target cap and prones... 4 seconds of doing no damage to anything while it goes off so drops your dps
Slam ... was good, no wasted time for animation garbage damage, unable to crit, 5 target limit.
savage advance... single target knockback and prone low damage for a daily only knocks one target, but the "knock" hits all targets for damage, it is actually an uncapped daily
Indomitable strength good single target damage + prone and knockback for a daily still low vs other classes Low damage on this one? Are you kidding? You do realize it hits twice right? I constantly do 16-18k damage with this skill in PVP with a PVP build, it's great!
so the only way for a GWF to be competetive is to use some of the semi broken skills, animation cancel + deep gash
My thoughts are in green. Those I didn't comment on I agree with.
Yes stox it is Extremely easy to avoid, slowest skill in the entire game at the moment.
25% damage nerf is beyond huge for a dps class, its **** near relegating it into the utility section instead of the damage skills. It hits well now, but taking 25% from it will make it worthless. (everyone has it because it does solid damage and everything else is trash)
savage is a semi uncapped daily knocking stuff all over (scatter not in a line) for a daily is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> think CW ice with damage only 1 target and only knocks stuff in an area about what sing pulls to
yes i am saying a low daily, for the fact you have to be point blank, can be inturrupted knocks them WELL away from you, and it is the capstone daily power. you hit for 16-18k.... TR after hella nerf still hit for 50k+ on a half hp target + it has more range, CW has ice knife that does comparable damage from long range and prones.
I'm curious about something, how are they supposed to nerf Deep Gash and keep the overall damage of the class at about the same place? I'm asking this seriously, because most of the solutions I've thought of would be even worse for PvP.
That's the thing, if it keeps up roughly the same damage in PvE than guess what? I will very likely do around the same damage in PvP. (While I think a lot of people would, like me, quit the class if it's PvE damage is utterly worthless. And yes, I still see the vast majority of content teams looking for two CW for speed runs. Coincidence?)
I don't really even believe that Deep Gash is that big of a deal in PvP unless people are sitting there letting you spam WMS 3 to 5 times before letting lose with a buffed attack. I find it much, much more likely that it has everything to do with Iron Vanguard itself and not one single feat in the Destroyer tree.
Oh, and I can't help but wonder where your PvP GWF guide is Stox. I mean, you play one right? Yet I don't see a build for it with screen shots and everything. That, or your GWF looks suspiciously like a PvP Control Wizard.
And using PvE damage logs to sell a PvP nerf? Seems...fishy...to say the least. How, specifically, is Deep Gash ruining your PvP experience? And why is that ruining specific to just Deep Gash, and not with every other large bleed effect in the game.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I'm curious about something, how are they supposed to nerf Deep Gash and keep the overall damage of the class at about the same place? I'm asking this seriously, because most of the solutions I've thought of would be even worse for PvP.
That's the thing, if it keeps up roughly the same damage in PvE than guess what? I will very likely do around the same damage in PvP. (While I think a lot of people would, like me, quit the class if it's PvE damage is utterly worthless. And yes, I still see the vast majority of content teams looking for two CW for speed runs. Coincidence?)
I don't really even believe that Deep Gash is that big of a deal in PvP unless people are sitting there letting you spam WMS 3 to 5 times before letting lose with a buffed attack. I find it much, much more likely that it has everything to do with Iron Vanguard itself and not one single feat in the Destroyer tree.
Oh, and I can't help but wonder where your PvP GWF guide is Stox. I mean, you play one right? Yet I don't see a build for it with screen shots and everything. That, or your GWF looks suspiciously like a PvP Control Wizard.
And using PvE damage logs to sell a PvP nerf? Seems...fishy...to say the least. How, specifically, is Deep Gash ruining your PvP experience? And why is that ruining specific to just Deep Gash, and not with every other large bleed effect in the game.
stox7@stoxbox2 -check it out on the gateway. I have a few changes from Krass's build, especially gear wise but I think only 1 point was different in feats. I also have a bis TR and DC for PVP, I'm not a CW only as people seem to think. Stox2@stoxbox2 = PVP TR, Stox3@stoxbox2 = PVP DC, Stox6@stoxbox2 = PVP CW.
stox7@stoxbox2 -check it out on the gateway. I have a few changes from Krass's build, especially gear wise but I think only 1 point was different in feats. I also have a bis TR and DC for PVP, I'm not a CW only as people seem to think. Stox2@stoxbox2 = PVP TR, Stox3@stoxbox2 = PVP DC, Stox6@stoxbox2 = PVP CW.
Well I guess answering one out of my five or six questions is a start.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
"I'm curious about something, how are they supposed to nerf Deep Gash and keep the overall damage of the class at about the same place? I'm asking this seriously, because most of the solutions I've thought of would be even worse for PvP."
Worst of more or less damage in pvp?
that if it is to improve / maintain the damage in pve and decrease damege to pvp in the "destroyer 2.0" would be a great solution. almost a divine revelation and it cost me a Sunday morning thinking. hahah
25% damage nerf is beyond huge for a dps class, its **** near relegating it into the utility section instead of the damage skills. It hits well now, but taking 25% from it will make it worthless. (everyone has it because it does solid damage and everything else is trash)
100 x 3 = 300
75 x 5 = 375.
You do MORE damage if you are at the target cap. This was basically a PvP nerf and a PvE buff.
Well I guess answering one out of my five or six questions is a start.
Well let's go over some of the suggested changes I had from talking with GWFs for the devs before the flame wars began...
Staying Power - make this 10% mitigation to all damage, not just encounters
Executioner's Style - why is this based on hp of the target at all for IBS damage? Just make it a flat 10%
Focused Destroyer - this could also add a couple extra stacks of destroyer to beef it up
Even simple tweaks like a little more ap gain, or a little faster determination gain from damage from destroyer capstone were suggested.
Deep gash is a big deal in PVP, there are times when I've hit a CW with nothing but IBS for say 18k and he took 22k bleed damage from deep gash. How is that balanced for PVP?
Also deep gash is a bleed from a feat, and it is doing more than bleeds from TR at-will, which is a main part of their damage. It is easily the largest bleed in the game.
Deep gash is a big deal in PVP, there are times when I've hit a CW with nothing but IBS for say 18k and he took 22k bleed damage from deep gash. How is that balanced for PVP?
That was with a p.vorpal correct? I think that just shows how crazy crit severity is in this game not that deep gash is the problem. Try it without the p. vorpal in this or any of your act tests and you'll get significantly lower deep gash damage. The problem isn't deep gash it's crit severity. And from what I've read about the preview server tenacity will take care of a good part of that.
Maybe not critical, but Deep Gash is so underwhelming to me. The only benefit Deep Gash has is that it technically can exceed the five target cap but it's just plain bad damage. It's added damage looks good in a parse, but it's mostly useless damage. The bleed won't kill anything on it's own, and the added damage takes forever to equal even one Weapon Master Strike swing.
Just looked at spacejew's guide and found this gem. lol
Well let's go over some of the suggested changes I had from talking with GWFs for the devs before the flame wars began...
Staying Power - make this 10% mitigation to all damage, not just encounters
Executioner's Style - why is this based on hp of the target at all for IBS damage? Just make it a flat 10%
Focused Destroyer - this could also add a couple extra stacks of destroyer to beef it up
Even simple tweaks like a little more ap gain, or a little faster determination gain from damage from destroyer capstone were suggested.
Deep gash is a big deal in PVP, there are times when I've hit a CW with nothing but IBS for say 18k and he took 22k bleed damage from deep gash. How is that balanced for PVP?
Also deep gash is a bleed from a feat, and it is doing more than bleeds from TR at-will, which is a main part of their damage. It is easily the largest bleed in the game.
Not saying Deep Gash isn't bugged. But again. There was not 22k bleed damage alone from an 18k IBS. It's either ticking and adding on to IBS for you, or there is an ongoing bleed that is continuously stacking for you.
That is all for that.
I agree with tweaking other feats for more damage to make up for Deep Gash, and those suggestions are very useful. Also, having the Instigator capstone based on not getting hit is probably the worst thing for a GWF and should also be reworked imo to boost damage and players in that tree. It's simply not feasible to put a melee character in the middle of 10+ mobs and expect them not to take some kind of damage very often ^^
Well let's go over some of the suggested changes I had from talking with GWFs for the devs before the flame wars began...
Staying Power - make this 10% mitigation to all damage, not just encounters
Executioner's Style - why is this based on hp of the target at all for IBS damage? Just make it a flat 10%
Focused Destroyer - this could also add a couple extra stacks of destroyer to beef it up
Adding stacks of Destroyer above and beyond the already beefy damage bonus that Destroyer gives is probably not going to be something you want to 'beef up' considering it's already something to the tune of a 12% damage increase for everything. Including Deep Gash, it would seem. Also, just to mention it, if your IBS is already critting for 18k against someone without any missing health, that would mean you could look forward to critting for even more damage off just IBS. Yay, 20k crit's on a target with just over 30k HP! Hope a debuff isn't on you, because if there is you're dead son! One hit.
Even simple tweaks like a little more ap gain, or a little faster determination gain from damage from destroyer capstone were suggested.
Interesting given that GWF used to have much higher AP/Determination gain until it was nerfed for PvP balance.
Deep gash is a big deal in PVP, there are times when I've hit a CW with nothing but IBS for say 18k and he took 22k bleed damage from deep gash. How is that balanced for PVP?
Considering that, as you say, it already can crit for 18k damage (or more, I've seen much higher crits from IBS) that would be over half of your PvP CW's HP right there. It sure is a shame there isn't an artifact that removes DoT from the player. Oh...well there is...and I notice your PvP CW has it slotted. It's also one of the three base artifacts that everyone has access to. Hmm.
Also deep gash is a bleed from a feat, and it is doing more than bleeds from TR at-will, which is a main part of their damage. It is easily the largest bleed in the game.
I'm wondering if TR also have the same problem where if they use any other attacks on a bleeding target that it overwrites the bleed with a smaller, insignificant bleed that cuts their damage short...no? Hmm. And as you say, that bleed the GWF pays 5 feat points for. TR's get theirs for free attached to their best At-Will while they can slice away with their second best at-will to supplement their awesome bleed.
Now I will agree with you that perhaps Deep Gash needs to be toned down, as you're right it does do a bit too much damage when combined with P2W enchants. That's nothing unique or special to the GWF, as I'm sure you're aware as you yourself probably run a perfect vorpal as other's have pointed out. (Given that your 'Control' Wizard is using one I can't imagine that your GWF doesn't.) This is how a control class with damage secondary role becomes a damage primary role with massive amounts of CC to back it up.
However, if you unslot that incredibly valuable class defining gem and then run Deep Gash you're going to see what most people are trying to run through T1 and T2 content with. Deep Gash is doing the right amount of damage without massive bonuses to critical severity, but the only way you're going to see an over 100% increase in damage done with the bleed off your abilities is to have a gem that costs millions. Working as intended?
(Also, I don't find it to be coincidence that everyone advertises in LFG based on if they have a vorpal or not. Once again, I'd suggest nerfing Vorpal but considering some poor folks paid real money to have that advantage I really doubt that's the route they'd go.)
Maybe, at the end of the day, the best solution is just to cut the damage on IBS into two hits to halve the bleed damage while keeping the burst damage in roughly the same place. I don't know if you've noticed this, but Deep Gash off of a Flourish that does 20k damage is a really bad bleed effect to the tune of a few hundred damage per tick. Seems reasonable, anyway.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
(Also, I don't find it to be coincidence that everyone advertises in LFG based on if they have a vorpal or not. Once again, I'd suggest nerfing Vorpal but considering some poor folks paid real money to have that advantage I really doubt that's the route they'd go.)
This is because most people don't understand the math behind the enchants or any of the math in this game it seems -.-
p. vorpal, let's say you've got all 3 crit severity features, would be 240/190 -1 = 26.3% bonus damage to a crit, so multiply that times your crit chance say 40% and you've got a 10.5% damage increase.
greater plague fire = 9% more damage + the dot which can easily be 3-4% of your damage. Granted you have to build the stacks of plague fire so it is not 9% til 3 stacks are on.
Vorpal just scales better with abilities is all. In fact if you didn't have debuffs lightning would beat it easily, but you know those ticks of lightning with say 150 damage and 100% debuffs = 300 damage a hit, whereas that 50k hit of an encounter with 100% debuffs becomes 100k damage.
This is because most people don't understand the math behind the enchants or any of the math in this game it seems -.-
p. vorpal, let's say you've got all 3 crit severity features, would be 240/190 -1 = 26.3% bonus damage to a crit, so multiply that times your crit chance say 40% and you've got a 10.5% damage increase.
greater plague fire = 9% more damage + the dot which can easily be 3-4% of your damage. Granted you have to build the stacks of plague fire so it is not 9% til 3 stacks are on.
Vorpal just scales better with abilities is all. In fact if you didn't have debuffs lightning would beat it easily, but you know those ticks of lightning with say 150 damage and 100% debuffs = 300 damage a hit, whereas that 50k hit of an encounter with 100% debuffs becomes 100k damage.
But your complaints are coming from pvp for the most part. That's where burst is king, lightning and plaguefire do sustained damage but vorpal does burst. And considering your main complaint is deep gash which always crits that means it gets the bonus from vorpal every tick.
Considering that, as you say, it already can crit for 18k damage (or more, I've seen much higher crits from IBS) that would be over half of your PvP CW's HP right there. It sure is a shame there isn't an artifact that removes DoT from the player. Oh...well there is...and I notice your PvP CW has it slotted. It's also one of the three base artifacts that everyone has access to. Hmm. So a CW is supposed to use an artifact with a 2-3 minute cooldown every time you hit him with FLS or IBS? Seems legit. Do you even know how hard it is to beat a GWF as a CW in PVP? You have to not get caught in his encounter rotation at all or you are dead, and you have to survive long enough to get 2 dailies off on him to have the DPS to take him down if he has a SF. Not very balanced. lol
I'm wondering if TR also have the same problem where if they use any other attacks on a bleeding target that it overwrites the bleed with a smaller, insignificant bleed that cuts their damage short...no? Hmm. And as you say, that bleed the GWF pays 5 feat points for. TR's get theirs for free attached to their best At-Will while they can slice away with their second best at-will to supplement their awesome bleed. Yes, TRs can overwrite their bleed with a non crit bleed or lesser damage bleed
However, if you unslot that incredibly valuable class defining gem and then run Deep Gash you're going to see what most people are trying to run through T1 and T2 content with. Deep Gash is doing the right amount of damage without massive bonuses to critical severity, but the only way you're going to see an over 100% increase in damage done with the bleed off your abilities is to have a gem that costs millions. Working as intended? You know the problem with this argument is that you can have a vorpal, then you're saying it's OP
1) No, not every time. Does it make any sense to you that a fighter who can go CC immune might be intended to be the counter to a CW? That might explain why you have trouble with them. Rock, meet paper.
2) (Nope, I'm wrong here. It doesn't crit every time I just have stupid high crit. My bad. The stacking bleed on DF still seems higher and is certainly more consistant given that a yellow hit on TR bleed is still more than a crit. bleed from WMS. Way more, in fact, given that my GWF outgears my TR by at least 2k.)
3) Don't follow your vorpal argument. A Vorpal gem that costs millions probably isn't a value added discussion point when talking about specific feats given that they are the bonus you're supposed to enjoy from paying cash, but frankly enchants are over powered and incredibly difficult to obtain otherwise. Not impossible, but it will take you quite some time unless you buy a couple of Coal's from the store.
Regardless, Deep Gash without perfect vorpals is in a good place. It could maybe see about a 10-15% reduction in damage per tick, or even better make the damage a flat bleed number that scales with GS but does not scale based on what ability you hit them with. That would fix the nonsense RNG that puts you in a position where you want to wait down a bleed even if it reduces your overall damage to do so.
Personally, I do think it's an issue with the Iron Vanguard path given that I've seen GWF with far lower gear score pull absurd PvE damage numbers. They were Iron Vanguard, and somehow managed to out damage everyone in the group including geared and knowledgable CW. I'm talking about millions of extra damage that is almost unexplainable given their rotation and the fact they were wearing almost all green gear. So yes, there's an issue, but I'm not convinced that it's Deep Gash that's the problem. I think it's a calculation error on one or more Iron Vanguard powers.
(It might even be the interaction between two GWF, as I'm not convinced that IV GWF aren't playing off of WMS used by a Swordmaster. It would be just like Cryptic to not think about something like that.)
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
The perfect vorp though is getting out of hand. Having a perfect vorp is like a ticket getting into groups these days, and alot of these GWF's shouldn't even be getting into them. I am tired of having to carry these senti based GWF's with vorp's that do half my damage. We don't need tanks anymore. The community as a whole is seeing perfect vorp and is just automatically assuming he's got the deeps.
Yeah, you know things are getting weird when people are running 5x CW and successfully clearing all the content.
Heaven forbid Cryptic ever institutes separate PvP rules from their PvE game. I'm guessing after their massive, spectacular failure of PvP balance in literally any of their games it's probably a bit of a stretch for anyone to assume there will ever be 'balance' in Neverwinter's PvP.
Oh, and just for fun here's some food for thought.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Weapon Master's Strike deals 2026 (1397) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Deep Gash deals 546 (474) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Weapon Master's Strike deals 1956 (1397) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Deep Gash deals 522 (474) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Indomitable Battle Strike deals 15326 (12116) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Deep Gash deals 1890 (1644) Physical to Target Dummy.
So sorry, but 1890 per tick isn't the end of the world. And this was with Destroyer/Weapon Master slotted and full stacks (And don't forget THOSE time take to build up, a minimum of 5 swings in fact). My TR was easily putting out a consistant 3-4k per tick bleed which is way, way higher than the numbers off my GWF's Deep Gash even on the supposedly overpowered IBS Deep Gash crit.
The only debuff on the target was SotS and WMS.
Strangely enough, Deep Gash seems to be roughly 15% of the damage your attack does per tick. This would correlate very strongly with the tool-tips 15% of power tooltip which we all know is out of date and incorrect regardless.
(EDIT: Actually it's probably closer to 10% given that my Reaping Strike crits for almost exactly 10k with all buffs/debuffs and the resulting bleed is almost exactly 1k per tick.)
So on a half-orc you're talking about a 145% increase in critical damage. Yeah, if there's a problem that's it right there. Seriously. Right. There.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Can one explain me why i only get <20% of my damage with Deep Gash?! Everyone cry about over 45% of his damage come from DG, so why my ACT don't show this with my 90% Crit severity?!
Can one explain me why i only get <20% of my damage with Deep Gash?! Everyone cry about over 45% of his damage come from DG, so why my ACT don't show this with my 90% Crit severity?!
Base is 75% to get the 45%+ you are going to probably want:
Horc 5%
Dancing Blade upgraded to level 30 = 5%
P. Vorpal 50%
Devastating Critical 15%
This brings you to 150% crit severity. So to answer your question, you're missing 60% crit severity. This is the main thing that makes deep gash come up with broken numbers but the problem isn't deep gash it's self. It's the crit severity stacking and it's a problem on all classes.
Yeah, you know things are getting weird when people are running 5x CW and successfully clearing all the content.
Heaven forbid Cryptic ever institutes separate PvP rules from their PvE game. I'm guessing after their massive, spectacular failure of PvP balance in literally any of their games it's probably a bit of a stretch for anyone to assume there will ever be 'balance' in Neverwinter's PvP.
Oh, and just for fun here's some food for thought.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Weapon Master's Strike deals 2026 (1397) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Deep Gash deals 546 (474) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Weapon Master's Strike deals 1956 (1397) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Deep Gash deals 522 (474) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Indomitable Battle Strike deals 15326 (12116) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Deep Gash deals 1890 (1644) Physical to Target Dummy.
So sorry, but 1890 per tick isn't the end of the world. And this was with Destroyer/Weapon Master slotted and full stacks (And don't forget THOSE time take to build up, a minimum of 5 swings in fact). My TR was easily putting out a consistant 3-4k per tick bleed which is way, way higher than the numbers off my GWF's Deep Gash even on the supposedly overpowered IBS Deep Gash crit.
The only debuff on the target was SotS and WMS.
Strangely enough, Deep Gash seems to be roughly 15% of the damage your attack does per tick. This would correlate very strongly with the tool-tips 15% of power tooltip which we all know is out of date and incorrect regardless.
(EDIT: Actually it's probably closer to 10% given that my Reaping Strike crits for almost exactly 10k with all buffs/debuffs and the resulting bleed is almost exactly 1k per tick.)
This was a 6 run T2 Dwarf King Crypt run, so mostly single target damage for the GWF.
And here we have an example of a single tick from deep gash doing nearly 26k. Remember folks, on IBS you get 6 deep gash ticks. It's safe to assume (because I already know) that this was off his nearly 90k IBS, but let's see what damage would that be from 6 ticks at that damage? Over 150k is the answer, off a 90k IBS. So Deep Gash in this case would do over 2/3rds MORE DAMAGE than IBS, the encounter that procced it. Do we finally see the problem?
And here we have an example of a single tick from deep gash doing nearly 26k. Remember folks, on IBS you get 6 deep gash ticks. It's safe to assume (because I already know) that this was off his nearly 90k IBS, but let's see what damage would that be from 6 ticks at that damage? Over 150k is the answer, off a 90k IBS. So Deep Gash in this case would do over 2/3rds MORE DAMAGE than IBS, the encounter that procced it.
And this would be a problem in PvP why? Unless I'm mistaken a 90k IBS crit would kill literally anything in PvP in one hit. And that's not a problem for you? Or the fact that IBS even does a 90k crit in PvE? Show me a parse from your average PvP match and then we'll talk about that.
And lets not even talk about the 50% base critical severity that a, what, 3 million AD gem is giving.
I also notice that Deep Gash non-flank is something like 9% of damage. And given the amount of encounters used in that parse the only consistant damage dealing ability in the entire parse would be Deep Gash. Use the same three encounters the whole instance and I imagine that parse would look very, very differently.
I also notice that you completely ignore the parse I just posted, and you continually use PvE parses in the most ideal situations possible to justify your QQ. Unless your GWF just decided to not attack anything for the six seconds his 'OP' bleed was ticking, thus losing every buff/debuff he had on him. Then he gets to spam WMS for another 5 or 6 seconds to ramp back up. Lets also not forget that those stacks, and presumably the debuffs, would expire before the 6th tick thusly lowering the overall damage from the bleed and slowing the GWF's roll by dropping every buff and debuff they applied.
This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum you know, it's not like GWF can go from zero to sixty in a nanosecond here. There's prep-work that leads up to those numbers, it doesn't just happen.
I just find it immensely suspicious that you would start off complaining about PvP balance then use PvE parses as your justification for why they're OP. If you've seen an 80k IBS in PvP I would say it's IBS that's broken, not the bleed that would never even have a chance to tick in such a situation.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Base is 75% to get the 45%+ you are going to probably want:
Horc 5%
Dancing Blade upgraded to level 30 = 5%
P. Vorpal 50%
Devastating Critical 15%
This brings you to 150% crit severity. So to answer your question, you're missing 60% crit severity. This is the main thing that makes deep gash come up with broken numbers but the problem isn't deep gash it's self. It's the crit severity stacking and it's a problem on all classes.
Even with the +60% Crit Severity, i wouldn't come over 30% DG damage alone. Second my other damage would increase to, because of the crit damage itself. So that's maybe 20-25% at max. FAR FAR away from the stated 45%+.
Comments
So what you are saying, as long as they gut the class again, nerf it back into the joke it was pre mod 2, your ok with that?
We are finally seeing decent numbers from GWF for dps, they are FINALLY not ignorable in pvp (excluding tene spec) and you want then put back in their place at the back of the line?
I play a GWF, along with almost every other class. Prior to mod 2 i had quit them, they were worthless, unless someone felt sorry for you they would NEVER be in a dungeon, Non tene specced GWF were a joke in pvp (Hell as my TR i face tanked them knowing full well they could never touch me) my CW would never be touched by them because of their lack of a dodge and my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> high CC + DPS, so that left them fighting the unkillable DC or the ever-prone GF, all with ignorable damage.
Honestly my HR and TR eat the majority of GWF still even after the patch, you just have to modify your play style no more "ohh its a GWF ok just kill it face tank through everything look its dead *derp* " Yes my CW has problems with them especially with the artifacts and soul forge but you know what? my CW eats HR, DC, and TR.
If they are going to do a **** thing to the class as it stands right now then they need to add in just as many DPS buffs to the USED skills (not this increase damage to punishing charge BS that no one uses)
In short stop trying to nerf a class just because you cant derp them anymore. They are finally where they need to be so stop trying to make them worthless again.
That's bad design really. All I am saying is that they should find a way to make their PvE damage high, while keeping their PvP damage at bay. Simple as that. Maybe find a rotation rather than applying a lol-dot that requires you to stand in middle and spam AoE at wills ?
It's quite simple to increase PVE damage without impacting PVP, but it does revolve around spamming aoe at wills, which you would be doing with or without deep gash so i'm not sure what your point was.
FLS increased to 5 with nerfed damage, breaks even at 4 mobs hit, deals more damage at 5, so pvp/single target damage nerf, pve dmg increase (except fulmi/valindra fights). This change is already coming.
IBS needs a slight increase to its area impact so that it more reliably hits more targets if they are close together (instead of only if timed with a singularity)
Come and Get it, Not so Fast, and other encounter aoes need the target cap raised to 10. Double the damage of Mighty Leap so it can be used in PVE for anything other than a deep gash proc. Allow slam to crit and increase target cap to 10.
Wicked Strike and Weapon Master Strike needs target cap raised to 10. Also instead of slightly decreasing damage per target hit above one they should slightly increase damage per target hit above one to a max of 5. Basically roll group assault into the baseline at will, expand it to WMS as well. you can leave the feat as an extra bonus if you'd like.
Speed up the animations of wicked, WMS, and sure strike by 25%.
Those changes would make up for nearly all of deep gash dmg in PVE without really impacting dmg in PVP.
I would say remove target caps on at wills but the GWF doesn't have the survivability to manage it. and making them tankier to survive being hit by everything would definitely impact PVP.
Destroyer 2.0 ( feature class )
Preventive care :
1 - Increase the time for 5/ 6 sec (but now the bonus resets ) .
2 - make only the wicked strike / reaping strike can create stacks ( 3 hits / 1 hit full charge) .
3 - modify " focused destroyer " for a bonus of anything that does not matter for now .
Now the good : the feat will act as a multiplier bonus standard , based on the amount of enemies that are struck simultaneously by the same stroke ( vs 5 or more , we have an increase of 62.5 % per head of damage atwills , Dailys and encounters ; critical or non-critical ) .
Ready : have a good nuke class, with longshots to cause trouble in pvp , and supposedly preserving the function of the rogue .
Bleed: I would like the top stack is equal to the current one, but the others were extremely reduced to compensate. If you can not , make it super sensitive destroyer 2.0 ( but with decreasing values ) .
Savage Advance ( after all, no longer single Dailys will be the same without bleed module 2 ) . The damage Cry preceding the gatotsu will be added to the damage of gatotsu ... considering the destroyer 2.0 , the damage of this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> should be high .
I would honestly even do something about reaping strike, IMO its a useless skill for gwf. There are if you are complaining that GWF are FINALLY doing the damage they SHOULD be as a dps class because of one skill then you should be SCREAMING for an increase/rework for all their other skills BEFORE you whine for a nerf.
NSF needs..... something, a slow is worthless pitiful damage and after you start getting decent aoe skills you never use it again
Mighty leap ... useful to proc deep gash or to glitch dungeons thats it
Restoring strike ... rarely used, damge is so so, single target only but provides a small heal and stam regen
Takedown ... PVP skill only EASILY avoidable, if you cant dodge this and are not already prone you are worthless and deserve to lose
Roar ... was the bread and butter of all GWF because of AP gain, very low damage push now
Daring shout ... decent for tanking GWF for for mitigation and AP gain, way to low target cap
Frontline surge ... OMG a GREAT skill after how many useless ones?!?! should stay as is, has a hit cap of 5 if they are stupid enough to nerf anything on this skill they should increase target cap to 10+ or its going to be useless
Come and get it... why would i bother with this? 5 target cap and limited area and limited pull make this a pathetic version of sing
Battle fury ... i have never even heard of a single GWF that uses this, for the most part seems worthless
Punishing charge ... Used only to run in between camps and die... garbage damage and adds nothing
IBS... Should NEVER be removed from a GWF bar, one of the VERY few usefull skills good damage (a bit small on hit area)
Would you like to look at dailies? since ohh wait they are so good right?
Avalanche of steel .. low damage but no target cap and prones... 4 seconds of doing no damage to anything while it goes off so drops your dps
Slam ... was good, no wasted time for animation garbage damage, unable to crit, 5 target limit.
savage advance... single target knockback and prone low damage for a daily
Indomitable strength good single target damage + prone and knockback for a daily still low vs other classes
so the only way for a GWF to be competetive is to use some of the semi broken skills, animation cancel + deep gash
My thoughts are in green. Those I didn't comment on I agree with.
25% damage nerf is beyond huge for a dps class, its **** near relegating it into the utility section instead of the damage skills. It hits well now, but taking 25% from it will make it worthless. (everyone has it because it does solid damage and everything else is trash)
savage is a semi uncapped daily knocking stuff all over (scatter not in a line) for a daily is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> think CW ice with damage only 1 target and only knocks stuff in an area about what sing pulls to
yes i am saying a low daily, for the fact you have to be point blank, can be inturrupted knocks them WELL away from you, and it is the capstone daily power. you hit for 16-18k.... TR after hella nerf still hit for 50k+ on a half hp target + it has more range, CW has ice knife that does comparable damage from long range and prones.
That's the thing, if it keeps up roughly the same damage in PvE than guess what? I will very likely do around the same damage in PvP. (While I think a lot of people would, like me, quit the class if it's PvE damage is utterly worthless. And yes, I still see the vast majority of content teams looking for two CW for speed runs. Coincidence?)
I don't really even believe that Deep Gash is that big of a deal in PvP unless people are sitting there letting you spam WMS 3 to 5 times before letting lose with a buffed attack. I find it much, much more likely that it has everything to do with Iron Vanguard itself and not one single feat in the Destroyer tree.
Oh, and I can't help but wonder where your PvP GWF guide is Stox. I mean, you play one right? Yet I don't see a build for it with screen shots and everything. That, or your GWF looks suspiciously like a PvP Control Wizard.
And using PvE damage logs to sell a PvP nerf? Seems...fishy...to say the least. How, specifically, is Deep Gash ruining your PvP experience? And why is that ruining specific to just Deep Gash, and not with every other large bleed effect in the game.
stox7@stoxbox2 -check it out on the gateway. I have a few changes from Krass's build, especially gear wise but I think only 1 point was different in feats. I also have a bis TR and DC for PVP, I'm not a CW only as people seem to think. Stox2@stoxbox2 = PVP TR, Stox3@stoxbox2 = PVP DC, Stox6@stoxbox2 = PVP CW.
Well I guess answering one out of my five or six questions is a start.
Worst of more or less damage in pvp?
that if it is to improve / maintain the damage in pve and decrease damege to pvp in the "destroyer 2.0" would be a great solution. almost a divine revelation and it cost me a Sunday morning thinking. hahah
75 x 5 = 375.
You do MORE damage if you are at the target cap. This was basically a PvP nerf and a PvE buff.
Well let's go over some of the suggested changes I had from talking with GWFs for the devs before the flame wars began...
Staying Power - make this 10% mitigation to all damage, not just encounters
Executioner's Style - why is this based on hp of the target at all for IBS damage? Just make it a flat 10%
Focused Destroyer - this could also add a couple extra stacks of destroyer to beef it up
Even simple tweaks like a little more ap gain, or a little faster determination gain from damage from destroyer capstone were suggested.
Deep gash is a big deal in PVP, there are times when I've hit a CW with nothing but IBS for say 18k and he took 22k bleed damage from deep gash. How is that balanced for PVP?
Also deep gash is a bleed from a feat, and it is doing more than bleeds from TR at-will, which is a main part of their damage. It is easily the largest bleed in the game.
Just looked at spacejew's guide and found this gem. lol
Not saying Deep Gash isn't bugged. But again. There was not 22k bleed damage alone from an 18k IBS. It's either ticking and adding on to IBS for you, or there is an ongoing bleed that is continuously stacking for you.
That is all for that.
I agree with tweaking other feats for more damage to make up for Deep Gash, and those suggestions are very useful. Also, having the Instigator capstone based on not getting hit is probably the worst thing for a GWF and should also be reworked imo to boost damage and players in that tree. It's simply not feasible to put a melee character in the middle of 10+ mobs and expect them not to take some kind of damage very often ^^
Sounds to me like it's you who is a worthless GWF who needs a ridiculously broken ability as a crutch. Do us all a favor and never play GWF again.
Adding stacks of Destroyer above and beyond the already beefy damage bonus that Destroyer gives is probably not going to be something you want to 'beef up' considering it's already something to the tune of a 12% damage increase for everything. Including Deep Gash, it would seem. Also, just to mention it, if your IBS is already critting for 18k against someone without any missing health, that would mean you could look forward to critting for even more damage off just IBS. Yay, 20k crit's on a target with just over 30k HP! Hope a debuff isn't on you, because if there is you're dead son! One hit.
Interesting given that GWF used to have much higher AP/Determination gain until it was nerfed for PvP balance.
Considering that, as you say, it already can crit for 18k damage (or more, I've seen much higher crits from IBS) that would be over half of your PvP CW's HP right there. It sure is a shame there isn't an artifact that removes DoT from the player. Oh...well there is...and I notice your PvP CW has it slotted. It's also one of the three base artifacts that everyone has access to. Hmm.
I'm wondering if TR also have the same problem where if they use any other attacks on a bleeding target that it overwrites the bleed with a smaller, insignificant bleed that cuts their damage short...no? Hmm. And as you say, that bleed the GWF pays 5 feat points for. TR's get theirs for free attached to their best At-Will while they can slice away with their second best at-will to supplement their awesome bleed.
Now I will agree with you that perhaps Deep Gash needs to be toned down, as you're right it does do a bit too much damage when combined with P2W enchants. That's nothing unique or special to the GWF, as I'm sure you're aware as you yourself probably run a perfect vorpal as other's have pointed out. (Given that your 'Control' Wizard is using one I can't imagine that your GWF doesn't.) This is how a control class with damage secondary role becomes a damage primary role with massive amounts of CC to back it up.
However, if you unslot that incredibly valuable class defining gem and then run Deep Gash you're going to see what most people are trying to run through T1 and T2 content with. Deep Gash is doing the right amount of damage without massive bonuses to critical severity, but the only way you're going to see an over 100% increase in damage done with the bleed off your abilities is to have a gem that costs millions. Working as intended?
(Also, I don't find it to be coincidence that everyone advertises in LFG based on if they have a vorpal or not. Once again, I'd suggest nerfing Vorpal but considering some poor folks paid real money to have that advantage I really doubt that's the route they'd go.)
Maybe, at the end of the day, the best solution is just to cut the damage on IBS into two hits to halve the bleed damage while keeping the burst damage in roughly the same place. I don't know if you've noticed this, but Deep Gash off of a Flourish that does 20k damage is a really bad bleed effect to the tune of a few hundred damage per tick. Seems reasonable, anyway.
This is because most people don't understand the math behind the enchants or any of the math in this game it seems -.-
p. vorpal, let's say you've got all 3 crit severity features, would be 240/190 -1 = 26.3% bonus damage to a crit, so multiply that times your crit chance say 40% and you've got a 10.5% damage increase.
greater plague fire = 9% more damage + the dot which can easily be 3-4% of your damage. Granted you have to build the stacks of plague fire so it is not 9% til 3 stacks are on.
Vorpal just scales better with abilities is all. In fact if you didn't have debuffs lightning would beat it easily, but you know those ticks of lightning with say 150 damage and 100% debuffs = 300 damage a hit, whereas that 50k hit of an encounter with 100% debuffs becomes 100k damage.
But your complaints are coming from pvp for the most part. That's where burst is king, lightning and plaguefire do sustained damage but vorpal does burst. And considering your main complaint is deep gash which always crits that means it gets the bonus from vorpal every tick.
Comments in green.
1) No, not every time. Does it make any sense to you that a fighter who can go CC immune might be intended to be the counter to a CW? That might explain why you have trouble with them. Rock, meet paper.
2) (Nope, I'm wrong here. It doesn't crit every time I just have stupid high crit. My bad. The stacking bleed on DF still seems higher and is certainly more consistant given that a yellow hit on TR bleed is still more than a crit. bleed from WMS. Way more, in fact, given that my GWF outgears my TR by at least 2k.)
3) Don't follow your vorpal argument. A Vorpal gem that costs millions probably isn't a value added discussion point when talking about specific feats given that they are the bonus you're supposed to enjoy from paying cash, but frankly enchants are over powered and incredibly difficult to obtain otherwise. Not impossible, but it will take you quite some time unless you buy a couple of Coal's from the store.
Regardless, Deep Gash without perfect vorpals is in a good place. It could maybe see about a 10-15% reduction in damage per tick, or even better make the damage a flat bleed number that scales with GS but does not scale based on what ability you hit them with. That would fix the nonsense RNG that puts you in a position where you want to wait down a bleed even if it reduces your overall damage to do so.
Personally, I do think it's an issue with the Iron Vanguard path given that I've seen GWF with far lower gear score pull absurd PvE damage numbers. They were Iron Vanguard, and somehow managed to out damage everyone in the group including geared and knowledgable CW. I'm talking about millions of extra damage that is almost unexplainable given their rotation and the fact they were wearing almost all green gear. So yes, there's an issue, but I'm not convinced that it's Deep Gash that's the problem. I think it's a calculation error on one or more Iron Vanguard powers.
(It might even be the interaction between two GWF, as I'm not convinced that IV GWF aren't playing off of WMS used by a Swordmaster. It would be just like Cryptic to not think about something like that.)
Yeah, you know things are getting weird when people are running 5x CW and successfully clearing all the content.
Heaven forbid Cryptic ever institutes separate PvP rules from their PvE game. I'm guessing after their massive, spectacular failure of PvP balance in literally any of their games it's probably a bit of a stretch for anyone to assume there will ever be 'balance' in Neverwinter's PvP.
Oh, and just for fun here's some food for thought.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Weapon Master's Strike deals 2026 (1397) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Deep Gash deals 546 (474) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Weapon Master's Strike deals 1956 (1397) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Deep Gash deals 522 (474) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Indomitable Battle Strike deals 15326 (12116) Physical to Target Dummy.
[15:45] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Deep Gash deals 1890 (1644) Physical to Target Dummy.
So sorry, but 1890 per tick isn't the end of the world. And this was with Destroyer/Weapon Master slotted and full stacks (And don't forget THOSE time take to build up, a minimum of 5 swings in fact). My TR was easily putting out a consistant 3-4k per tick bleed which is way, way higher than the numbers off my GWF's Deep Gash even on the supposedly overpowered IBS Deep Gash crit.
The only debuff on the target was SotS and WMS.
Strangely enough, Deep Gash seems to be roughly 15% of the damage your attack does per tick. This would correlate very strongly with the tool-tips 15% of power tooltip which we all know is out of date and incorrect regardless.
(EDIT: Actually it's probably closer to 10% given that my Reaping Strike crits for almost exactly 10k with all buffs/debuffs and the resulting bleed is almost exactly 1k per tick.)
So on a half-orc you're talking about a 145% increase in critical damage. Yeah, if there's a problem that's it right there. Seriously. Right. There.
Base is 75% to get the 45%+ you are going to probably want:
Horc 5%
Dancing Blade upgraded to level 30 = 5%
P. Vorpal 50%
Devastating Critical 15%
This brings you to 150% crit severity. So to answer your question, you're missing 60% crit severity. This is the main thing that makes deep gash come up with broken numbers but the problem isn't deep gash it's self. It's the crit severity stacking and it's a problem on all classes.
This was a 6 run T2 Dwarf King Crypt run, so mostly single target damage for the GWF.
http://imgur.com/Gq6Uu1Y
And here we have an example of a single tick from deep gash doing nearly 26k. Remember folks, on IBS you get 6 deep gash ticks. It's safe to assume (because I already know) that this was off his nearly 90k IBS, but let's see what damage would that be from 6 ticks at that damage? Over 150k is the answer, off a 90k IBS. So Deep Gash in this case would do over 2/3rds MORE DAMAGE than IBS, the encounter that procced it. Do we finally see the problem?
And this would be a problem in PvP why? Unless I'm mistaken a 90k IBS crit would kill literally anything in PvP in one hit. And that's not a problem for you? Or the fact that IBS even does a 90k crit in PvE? Show me a parse from your average PvP match and then we'll talk about that.
And lets not even talk about the 50% base critical severity that a, what, 3 million AD gem is giving.
I also notice that Deep Gash non-flank is something like 9% of damage. And given the amount of encounters used in that parse the only consistant damage dealing ability in the entire parse would be Deep Gash. Use the same three encounters the whole instance and I imagine that parse would look very, very differently.
I also notice that you completely ignore the parse I just posted, and you continually use PvE parses in the most ideal situations possible to justify your QQ. Unless your GWF just decided to not attack anything for the six seconds his 'OP' bleed was ticking, thus losing every buff/debuff he had on him. Then he gets to spam WMS for another 5 or 6 seconds to ramp back up. Lets also not forget that those stacks, and presumably the debuffs, would expire before the 6th tick thusly lowering the overall damage from the bleed and slowing the GWF's roll by dropping every buff and debuff they applied.
This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum you know, it's not like GWF can go from zero to sixty in a nanosecond here. There's prep-work that leads up to those numbers, it doesn't just happen.
I just find it immensely suspicious that you would start off complaining about PvP balance then use PvE parses as your justification for why they're OP. If you've seen an 80k IBS in PvP I would say it's IBS that's broken, not the bleed that would never even have a chance to tick in such a situation.
Even with the +60% Crit Severity, i wouldn't come over 30% DG damage alone. Second my other damage would increase to, because of the crit damage itself. So that's maybe 20-25% at max. FAR FAR away from the stated 45%+.