So us GWF, who count as DPS in the queue system, we got no right to do damage. As soon as we barely reach CWs damage we're getting hit with the nerf hammer. In truth a CW and GWF with equal gear and skill are balanced in terms of damage. Unfortunately building and playing the GWF right is harder for the average derp so there are infinitely more useless GWFs out there than CWs who just need to cast 1 daily to make themselves useful.
In these days we finally see "LF GWF" in the LFG channel, and I hope in the future every class will be equally seeked, but it seems this is a major issue of anxiety for our DERP DEV because the only desired class should be the CONTROL-BUTINSANE DAMAGE-wizard.
I am losing all hope, they've just made a step in the right direction for the usefulness of an undesired class to threaten the undisputable supremacy of CWs in PVE and now they're making 2 backwards.
GWFs and CWs - feel the "love" between our two classes, both with arguably their fair share of broken abilities and locked in an endless battle to rock those dps boards and each other, whilst constantly re-inventing themselves from patch to patch.
With regards to some of the earlier comments made in this thread:
For those speaking positive about me, thank you as always for your kind words.
Secondly I experiment a lot with my build and slotted feats/powers so am a little surprised that some of the stuff I was experimenting with / thinking out aloud ended up on the forums (and a little out of context). Perhaps best to contact me direct to get my thoughts.
Thirdly, I am fortunate enough to have played alongside many high dps CWs and GWFs in PvE and am confident in stating from experience that even with Deep Gash in it's current state, like for like, CWs have the edge on GWFs in PvE DPS. In fact I would even go as far as saying that as things stand right now a lower geared CW (R8s & R9s) can make it very difficult for a higher geared GWF (R10s) to compete in AoE DPS. That is not to say they cannot be beaten with stronger gameplay and an understanding of where both classes get their damage, but the more knowledgeable a CW the tougher it is.
In terms of what the "role" of the GWF is in battle, I believe this has already been answered by Noel “Dezstravus” Holmes, Community Team Manager, PWE:
“Great Weapon Fighter is designed to be a class that excels at AoE DPS and taking hits while providing a bit of control to the fight”
With this in mind, I truly believe GWFs are within their right on a like for a like basis to compete against CWs in DPS in PvE dungeons. It can be argued that a control class should be exactly that, but then who am I to make such a statement? My girlfriend plays a CW and she annihilates dungeons both in control and damage throwing me into second place on more occasions than any man would ever want to admit, but fair play to her for knowing her class and being able to do so.
With this in mind, it would be great to get the same courtesy from our AoE counterparts - remember we may be more tanky (after investing in defensive gear, enchants and feats) but we have no choice but to enter melee range and take a beating to be effective. It could just as easily be argued that for a CW to be effective they need to stay at a certain range and consequently CWs need a certain level of control in their gameplay. Therefore being "tanky" is more akin to having "control" and by no means an excuse to reduce the overall DPS of a damage dealing class.
Well honestly the suggestion that the cut the CW's damage down by some amount would be fine with me. I loved my CW when people didn't mind a control heavy build, but now that everyone expects you to bring the deeps I'm just not interested in it anymore.
Just wait until they introduce an actual damage wizard, you can fully expect a huge CW damage nerf at around the same time. They just don't want 70% of the player base to quit playing overnight by nerfing one of the two 'Necessary' classes to steamroll content.
I think they haven't figured out what to do about Deep Gash yet either, given that no one at all would even take GWF along for the ride just six months ago.
Until I start seeing people advertising to take two GWF and excluding CW's from teams I'll say it's in a good place.
((EDIT: Well said Val.))
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Why do you want to do more damage than the wizard with 3 encounters when they have 4, while being able to tank and taking so much less damage?
Don't pick on my post when you don't even understand the meaning of "tank". The tankiness only serves a GWF to stay in melee, toe to toe with the nastiest stuff and do his damage while a CW can just pew pew from a way too long range (if you ask me). We aren't real tanks, in the sense that we protect something. We only protect our skin from dying in an instant.
How are we taking the least damage? I am always 1st on damage received. The wizard doesn't even have to tank, he just "steals time" from his enemies and murders them before they can even react.
So stox, the gwf you keep citing says cw has higher dps than gwf. And I don't care how much you tell us to use punishing charge and mighty leap. The vast majority of gwfs use only a very few encounters because most encounters for gwf are utter trash. And unlike you I have tried them.
Again I say go ahead and do any dungeon with mighty leap, punishing charge, or your wonderful 10 target reaping strike, and come back with the results. I am going to keep telling you to do this because almost everything you have written in this thread shows you have not actually tested these things out. So please, stop telling people to test out these <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> encounters when it is obviously you who has not tested them out. Lol reaping strike... seriously...
I personally think GWF damage should be about 80% of what it is currently. As it stands if deep gash is nerfed then the best GWFs will be at 40-50% of the damage of my CW. And there are actually CW builds involving bugs that could boost my damage another 30-40% as well... But bumping encounters and at-wills is not the way to do it, GWFs already have the most damage of any class in PVP with a rotation. What needs to be adjusted is feats and I have a working list from talking with a few GWF friends on what to adjust and how it needs to be adjusted to increase their damage. But this is being shelved now. I really hate when a class doesn't want to look away from a few abilities. With the TR, most don't want to give up lashing blade for instance, whereas guys like esteena and a few others will do massive damage in a dungeon running some combination of blitz, potb, wicked reminder, and dazing strike. It's just people look at the lower damage and go oh that's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> until someone more than doubles their DPS with their class...
lol u mad bro.u say u want to nerf gwf to do 40%of your dmg and then u will show us how to increase dps coz we all stupid lololol.
trust me you dont have any gwf friends that want a dmg nerf.i bet even the most hard core cw dont agree with deep gash nerf.
i dont know how people in your guild keep up with u coz i bet no one agree with u
You guys just keep stagnating. Enjoy doing 40% of my damage soon and go back to not getting parties. I'm done with this thread because all you guys do is bash me rather than test stuff or try anything different. Deep gash is getting nerfed, your damage will be trash again, then just complain like all the TRs are doing now about being underpowered and useless til you get a buff.
I don't know why you guys think I'm so against GWF. I want a bug fixed that is going to be fixed. Please come up with constructive ways to make the damage go up without increasing encounters/at-wills because that is not feasible for PVP. I have a GWF, 2 in fact... One fully maxed out for PVP. You know in the new system in PVP that we have coming when you IBS a guy for 12k, walk away and he dies from the 18k additional damage from deep gash that it's a broken element that needs to go away is all.
go already no one wants u here,
gwf dmg will never be nerfed in pve just keep dreaming coz you are the only one in the whole game that wants that
[*]Secondly I experiment a lot with my build and slotted feats/powers so am a little surprised that some of the stuff I was experimenting with / thinking out aloud ended up on the forums (and a little out of context). Perhaps best to contact me direct to get my thoughts.
That's why I sought clarification... lol I figured it was something on the experimental end, particularly after chatting with that Mad Scientist PandaPaul.
With this in mind, it would be great to get the same courtesy from our AoE counterparts - remember we may be more tanky (after investing in defensive gear, enchants and feats) but we have no choice but to enter melee range and take a beating to be effective. It could just as easily be argued that for a CW to be effective they need to stay at a certain range and consequently CWs need a certain level of control in their gameplay. Therefore being "tanky" is more akin to having "control" and by no means an excuse to reduce the overall DPS of a damage dealing class.
You guys just keep stagnating. Enjoy doing 40% of my damage soon and go back to not getting parties. I'm done with this thread because all you guys do is bash me rather than test stuff or try anything different. Deep gash is getting nerfed, your damage will be trash again, then just complain like all the TRs are doing now about being underpowered and useless til you get a buff.
I don't know why you guys think I'm so against GWF. I want a bug fixed that is going to be fixed. Please come up with constructive ways to make the damage go up without increasing encounters/at-wills because that is not feasible for PVP. I have a GWF, 2 in fact... One fully maxed out for PVP. You know in the new system in PVP that we have coming when you IBS a guy for 12k, walk away and he dies from the 18k additional damage from deep gash that it's a broken element that needs to go away is all. Stop attacking me, stop attacking CW damage. Your damage is going to go to **** again, it's coming, deal with it and come up with either new builds by actually ****ing trying something, or come up with some useful feedback for the devs like I was until you asshats started attacking me personally. It's actually really hard to put me in a bad mood, but you guys have. I may in fact report another 15-20 bugs for GWF to nerf their damage further. How about that?
Stox, you think you somehow hurt our feelings by saying a deep gash nerf is coming and you make baseless claims about gwf damage, and won't respond when your very wrong numbers or lack of them are called out. And now you threaten to report gwf bugs to punish us for pointing out that you are just lying and misleading everyone. You are not doing anything to make the game better and don't think you are fooling any of us. You are just an immature hypocrite.
You know in the new system in PVP that we have coming when you IBS a guy for 12k, walk away and he dies from the 18k additional damage from deep gash that it's a broken element that needs to go away is all.
This seems overexagerrated. 12k IBS and 18k bleed? Deep Gash just ticked for 1.2k each and totaled 18k in all damage. I have never seen an 18k bleed (additional damage) ever in PvP.
With outside buffs/debuff's I've had IBS hit 20-30k, and yeah the bleed afterwards is entirely worth waiting down if it's on the boss. Just sayin'.
Off the top of my head the bleed seemed to do around 4-5k a tick for maybe five-six seconds? That's nowhere near 15k GS either, I'm at just under 10k myself.
Another thing I've noticed is that the damage of the bleed changes depending on the debuffs on the target, and maybe after stacks of destroyer fall off as well. So once again, very inconsistent damage. It seems to be changed by almost every variable even as it's ticking.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Absolute comedy gold, I feel sorry for you Stox. You have been the straightman to total clowns and its been funny as hell. I'm confident the punchline will be perfect.
0
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
basically you all just got trolled by stox for about 11 pages.
They just need to remove deep gash, Shard of the Endless Avalanche, and put target caps on all CW spells (5 sounds reasonable) and call it a day.
It's the same thing with TRs at the moment, they believe they are so weak and underpowered because they don't run with the aoe skills that would let them do more damage like wicked reminder (which they too consider the damage too low even though it has a low cooldown, no target cap, and is an incredible AP generator
Everything you stated which is underlined is true. However, wicked reminder is one of the most difficult AoE abilities to even use. The only time I will ever slot it inside of a dungeon over Blitz is when there are multiple control wizards inside the party. That skill is simply too difficult to use on more than 3 mobs unless it is during a sing pull, which then I can rush to use it and apply the 3 stacks of debuff and damage all of them at once; however, that is the only scenario where it is viable. Your targets have to literally be in your face for it to even hit; have your tried doing that without a control wizard or wasting time running in a circle to group them together when you could easily just do more damage in the same time with your other encounters? Unless wicked reminder gets a better range/AoE area, its essentially useless without having a control wizard with you at all times.
P.S. Sorry about talking about TR inside of a GWF thread, but I had to say that.
Edit: I mean the AoE aspect of it. During a boss that I don't need to constantly be moving on, I see more use for Wicked Reminder due to the debuff and will try to keep the 5 stacks active.
Sorry but why is everyone going crazy on what this stox dude is saying. You all act like he's a VIP but he sounds like an immature prick who's playing a CW (conflict of interests here...) and has no clue on understanding the game mechanics. From the point where he says "enjoy doing 40% of my damage as a CW" he seems a troll
no, he is not a troll. a troll not believe what you say. for example, if I say "nerf the cw" I'm being troll by a cw, alone, is not currently imbalance. 2 cw are. a reasonable suggestion for this would be to create resistances to alternate use of damage/ control by 2 cw (or gf / gwf / rogue / ranger / dc).
stox the other hand believe what you're saying, point by point. I will not make personal attacks , but I think our responses have a "teaching" character to other players who, by simple disinterest, dont know the gwf.
For example, notice how many people spoke before the gwf is op in pvp, but now distinguish between sentinel and destroyer, even stressing that the destroyer is permissible only have high damage?
Well, I will take the post as the hook for a request.
Assuming that the deep gash is an error , there is a certain projection for the class that does not meet the need of the party, or personal projection of the players themselves . If not this error, the gwf remain the worst class in the game . I do not know if the deep gash will be replaced , but it is clear that the controversy has generated a terrible evil , and a skepticism about the future of the class.
What I 've been asking for is an opening of an " official thread " where players of the class discuss possible "replacement " of the deep gash without causing major problems in pvp . We did this in Module 1 , and unfortunately few suggestions avenged . We can do it again , making sure that ideas do not fall into the void.
I must admit I'm a bit tired of all the controversies involving the class in light of this duality pve / pvp . This topic , at worst , would serve as a projection of what we seek and how we seek .
sorry for Bad place. Thank you.
I was drunk and I apologize. This is a well thought out post and exactly what was needed. I will clean up my comments in this thread and again I'm sorry.
I wish i'd be drunk enough too to consider reaping strike as my at-will
You know I never suggested that. I did read through the comments I wrote and I just posted the target cap as 10 as a response to complaints about GWF at-will target caps needing to be raised... Let's try to at least keep your facts straight and not fly off into more personal attacks.
Getting back on topic, I went to preview and specced into Intimidation from senti tree, which gives 10% of your power as damage when you use come and get it and daring shout. You will note 6 instances of damage, 3 from come and get it and 3 from daring, with 3064 power it does:
basically you all just got trolled by stox for about 11 pages.
They just need to remove deep gash, Shard of the Endless Avalanche, and put target caps on all CW spells (5 sounds reasonable) and call it a day.
most stupid idea ive seen in a long time. deep gash should be kept, just with reduced dmg, or merged with student of the sword, and shard is one of best skills they have made, its ffn awesome! if only it was a fireball...
they should REMOVE all target caps from all classes(even make most tr at-wills small aoe like dazing thingy) and balance from there
target cap is worst thing in action mmo, only skills that should have cap is single target and chain skills(chain lightning kind of stuff), maybe frontline and few others
most stupid idea ive seen in a long time. deep gash should be kept, just with reduced dmg, or merged with student of the sword, and shard is one of best skills they have made, its ffn awesome! if only it was a fireball...
You know student of the sword is also bugged. 15% defense reduction from student = 5% mitigation, 15% from GPF = 3% mitigation, 20% from p terror = 4% mitigation.
Comments
In these days we finally see "LF GWF" in the LFG channel, and I hope in the future every class will be equally seeked, but it seems this is a major issue of anxiety for our DERP DEV because the only desired class should be the CONTROL-BUTINSANE DAMAGE-wizard.
I am losing all hope, they've just made a step in the right direction for the usefulness of an undesired class to threaten the undisputable supremacy of CWs in PVE and now they're making 2 backwards.
GWFs and CWs - feel the "love" between our two classes, both with arguably their fair share of broken abilities and locked in an endless battle to rock those dps boards and each other, whilst constantly re-inventing themselves from patch to patch.
With regards to some of the earlier comments made in this thread:
In terms of what the "role" of the GWF is in battle, I believe this has already been answered by Noel “Dezstravus” Holmes, Community Team Manager, PWE:
With this in mind, I truly believe GWFs are within their right on a like for a like basis to compete against CWs in DPS in PvE dungeons. It can be argued that a control class should be exactly that, but then who am I to make such a statement? My girlfriend plays a CW and she annihilates dungeons both in control and damage throwing me into second place on more occasions than any man would ever want to admit, but fair play to her for knowing her class and being able to do so.
With this in mind, it would be great to get the same courtesy from our AoE counterparts - remember we may be more tanky (after investing in defensive gear, enchants and feats) but we have no choice but to enter melee range and take a beating to be effective. It could just as easily be argued that for a CW to be effective they need to stay at a certain range and consequently CWs need a certain level of control in their gameplay. Therefore being "tanky" is more akin to having "control" and by no means an excuse to reduce the overall DPS of a damage dealing class.
Just wait until they introduce an actual damage wizard, you can fully expect a huge CW damage nerf at around the same time. They just don't want 70% of the player base to quit playing overnight by nerfing one of the two 'Necessary' classes to steamroll content.
I think they haven't figured out what to do about Deep Gash yet either, given that no one at all would even take GWF along for the ride just six months ago.
Until I start seeing people advertising to take two GWF and excluding CW's from teams I'll say it's in a good place.
((EDIT: Well said Val.))
How are we taking the least damage?
Again I say go ahead and do any dungeon with mighty leap, punishing charge, or your wonderful 10 target reaping strike, and come back with the results. I am going to keep telling you to do this because almost everything you have written in this thread shows you have not actually tested these things out. So please, stop telling people to test out these <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> encounters when it is obviously you who has not tested them out. Lol reaping strike... seriously...
lol u mad bro.u say u want to nerf gwf to do 40%of your dmg and then u will show us how to increase dps coz we all stupid lololol.
trust me you dont have any gwf friends that want a dmg nerf.i bet even the most hard core cw dont agree with deep gash nerf.
i dont know how people in your guild keep up with u coz i bet no one agree with u
go already no one wants u here,
gwf dmg will never be nerfed in pve just keep dreaming coz you are the only one in the whole game that wants that
That's why I sought clarification... lol I figured it was something on the experimental end, particularly after chatting with that Mad Scientist PandaPaul.
Dang right!
Stox, you think you somehow hurt our feelings by saying a deep gash nerf is coming and you make baseless claims about gwf damage, and won't respond when your very wrong numbers or lack of them are called out. And now you threaten to report gwf bugs to punish us for pointing out that you are just lying and misleading everyone. You are not doing anything to make the game better and don't think you are fooling any of us. You are just an immature hypocrite.
When the childish Stox sends 50 million bug reports to cryptic and one of them gets through their buggy bug report system.
This seems overexagerrated. 12k IBS and 18k bleed? Deep Gash just ticked for 1.2k each and totaled 18k in all damage. I have never seen an 18k bleed (additional damage) ever in PvP.
Off the top of my head the bleed seemed to do around 4-5k a tick for maybe five-six seconds? That's nowhere near 15k GS either, I'm at just under 10k myself.
Another thing I've noticed is that the damage of the bleed changes depending on the debuffs on the target, and maybe after stacks of destroyer fall off as well. So once again, very inconsistent damage. It seems to be changed by almost every variable even as it's ticking.
They just need to remove deep gash, Shard of the Endless Avalanche, and put target caps on all CW spells (5 sounds reasonable) and call it a day.
Everything you stated which is underlined is true. However, wicked reminder is one of the most difficult AoE abilities to even use. The only time I will ever slot it inside of a dungeon over Blitz is when there are multiple control wizards inside the party. That skill is simply too difficult to use on more than 3 mobs unless it is during a sing pull, which then I can rush to use it and apply the 3 stacks of debuff and damage all of them at once; however, that is the only scenario where it is viable. Your targets have to literally be in your face for it to even hit; have your tried doing that without a control wizard or wasting time running in a circle to group them together when you could easily just do more damage in the same time with your other encounters? Unless wicked reminder gets a better range/AoE area, its essentially useless without having a control wizard with you at all times.
P.S. Sorry about talking about TR inside of a GWF thread, but I had to say that.
Edit: I mean the AoE aspect of it. During a boss that I don't need to constantly be moving on, I see more use for Wicked Reminder due to the debuff and will try to keep the 5 stacks active.
stox the other hand believe what you're saying, point by point. I will not make personal attacks , but I think our responses have a "teaching" character to other players who, by simple disinterest, dont know the gwf.
For example, notice how many people spoke before the gwf is op in pvp, but now distinguish between sentinel and destroyer, even stressing that the destroyer is permissible only have high damage?
launched the idea of the official thread. I hope more people support.
I was drunk and I apologize. This is a well thought out post and exactly what was needed. I will clean up my comments in this thread and again I'm sorry.
You know I never suggested that. I did read through the comments I wrote and I just posted the target cap as 10 as a response to complaints about GWF at-will target caps needing to be raised... Let's try to at least keep your facts straight and not fly off into more personal attacks.
most stupid idea ive seen in a long time. deep gash should be kept, just with reduced dmg, or merged with student of the sword, and shard is one of best skills they have made, its ffn awesome! if only it was a fireball...
they should REMOVE all target caps from all classes(even make most tr at-wills small aoe like dazing thingy) and balance from there
target cap is worst thing in action mmo, only skills that should have cap is single target and chain skills(chain lightning kind of stuff), maybe frontline and few others
You know student of the sword is also bugged. 15% defense reduction from student = 5% mitigation, 15% from GPF = 3% mitigation, 20% from p terror = 4% mitigation.