I think the 'progressive' paradigm is grossly abused in MMO's. Like someone said, we simply do not need an overhaul in pvp, which is what tenacity and the innate bonuses will end up being.
The idea that we need to be progressively changing current mechanics, even if it were perfect, is near pathological. Leave it alone and add more content to 'alter the mechanics'. This way, people can get their cake and eat it too.
Giving players the choice to spec whatever way should be the focus. Player decision should be, and is, the 'proving grounds', not empirical judgements cast by the post-production devs.
Seems like when an MMO does something right (usually at release), the post-production clowns insert their mediocrity by way of borrowed, yet popular, thoughts from the forums. After all, it is the safer bet since it is just that to them, a gamble. They don't have a clue about what makes tasteful game mechanics, so, they just take the safest, job secure approach.
I sense that the current, main designers for neverwinter, have no part to play in these decisions, or have little bearing with the Grey Hair bosses.
the thing is though. No one said anything about this tenacity thing they are introducing. No one said anything about adding a new stat and overhauling the core thing that makes pvp enjoyable.
Just like no one said anything about completely changing the way we refine enchantments when they rehauled that in module 2.
For god knows why they see the need to overhaul entire, working systems unnessecarily is beyond me.
I don't believe in class balancing efforts. If you think one class is overpowered then you should roll an alt and make that class... You then have the same advantage they do. Trying to balance classes when there is both pvp and pve to consider is an endless thing to try to accomplish, noone will ever be happy. Just my opinion Nerf and Buff techniques hardly ever work..look at WoW for example... as soon as you nerf one class they complain, when you buff a different class, people complain. It is neverending.
^One of the worst posts I've ever seen on a MMO forum
^One of the worst posts I've ever seen on a MMO forum
Especially as it tackles a game which is famous for its amazing job at balancing, regardless of some people crying on Blizz forums since their class is no longer OP.
Balancing is neverending, and this is how it should be. New mechanics are always introduced in MMOs, and classes need adjustments over time to keep them competitive and balanced.
Especially as it tackles a game which is famous for its amazing job at balancing, regardless of some people crying on Blizz forums since their class is no longer OP.
Balancing is neverending, and this is how it should be. New mechanics are always introduced in MMOs, and classes need adjustments over time to keep them competitive and balanced.
No. Altering mechanics that are already within acceptable tolerances, to facilitate new ideologies is reinventing the wheel so you can put a nominally different engine in the car.... why? Why not just simply add avenues, then, let the players make the choice...? (Granted, some things may not work as intended, and require tweaking, but those are a different story)
Look at league of legends (since you brought up the competition aspect) they don't emphasize balance like mmo's, they let people figure out this build or that build.... it creates public qq, but then next week some one else discovers this or that flavor.... you can't tweak everything, or constantly... let the player decide, but allow safeguards in places that are not convoluted.
So many seem to ask for change/balance... asking for things only for the sake of it. Adding things to an mmo is great... changing current stuff to placate to the masses or altering stuff as means to only allure interest, is cheese. There are game ideas that have real intrinsic essence... and then you have pathological ideas, especially regarding balance. There is no balance between these, imo.
Class tweaking is at its core subjective, yes. The version I like is positive, adding this choice of skill tree, or that path, this gear set or that one. Adding stuff.
No. Altering mechanics that are already within acceptable tolerances, to facilitate new ideologies is reinventing the wheel so you can put a nominally different engine in the car.... why? Why not just simply add avenues, then, let the players make the choice...? (Granted, some things may not work as intended, and require tweaking, but those are a different story)
Look at league of legends (since you brought up the competition aspect) they don't emphasize balance like mmo's, they let people figure out this build or that build.... it creates public qq, but then next week some one else discovers this or that flavor.... you can't tweak everything, or constantly... let the player decide, but allow safeguards in places that are not convoluted.
So many seem to ask for change/balance... asking for things only for the sake of it. Adding things to an mmo is great... changing current stuff to placate to the masses or altering stuff as means to only allure interest, is cheese. There are game ideas that have real intrinsic essence... and then you have pathological ideas, especially regarding balance. There is no balance between these, imo.
Class tweaking is at its core subjective, yes. The version I like is positive, adding this choice of skill tree, or that path, this gear set or that one. Adding stuff.
I more or less agree with everything you said. I see things in a similar fashion.
0
shazysMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited January 2014
First of all, sorry for my bad english, isn't my first language.
Now, I don't know what are you trying to achieve with this, but making everyone even more tanky don't make any sense. After a 50 minutes premade match can easily see people ending up with very low deaths, wouldn't be surprised if serious pvp matches end up with 2 or 3 hours of duration.
Complaints about pvp is mainly about massive difference of gear. A fresh 60 player will most likely rage when getting oneshoted or dying in 2 or 3 seconds.
With this system, not like outgeared people will stop complaining. They will still complain when fightning fully geared players, maybe because... they are immortal ?
PVP does need some new things, and there are a few changes that everyione would most likely support:
* New PVP maps.
* An easier way of making premade matches.
* A duel system.
* A matchmaking system that balance teams by gearscore.
EDIT: And nerf impact shot, seriously?
Isn't like trs are dealing too much damage now, it's the opposite. Our damage already suck.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No. Altering mechanics that are already within acceptable tolerances, to facilitate new ideologies is reinventing the wheel so you can put a nominally different engine in the car.... why? Why not just simply add avenues, then, let the players make the choice...? (Granted, some things may not work as intended, and require tweaking, but those are a different story)
Look at league of legends (since you brought up the competition aspect) they don't emphasize balance like mmo's, they let people figure out this build or that build.... it creates public qq, but then next week some one else discovers this or that flavor.... you can't tweak everything, or constantly... let the player decide, but allow safeguards in places that are not convoluted.
So many seem to ask for change/balance... asking for things only for the sake of it. Adding things to an mmo is great... changing current stuff to placate to the masses or altering stuff as means to only allure interest, is cheese. There are game ideas that have real intrinsic essence... and then you have pathological ideas, especially regarding balance. There is no balance between these, imo.
Class tweaking is at its core subjective, yes. The version I like is positive, adding this choice of skill tree, or that path, this gear set or that one. Adding stuff.
Yeah...
This is why many people left their CWs for PvP and now run HRs, or GWFs. They "figured out" the solution to enjoy themselves.
This should not happen.
Also LoL is not an MMO. WoW is the standard here, since its PvP is a recognized e-sport at highest level, and it's a full MMO.
Now, about balancing.
It should NOT be done to placate any masses It should be done based on feedback from the highest echelon of elite PvPers, because this is where things truly count. And when you have people from a certain class coming to forums and say "my class is OP", then you have something very, very wrong, and it's time to go back to the drawing board.
Personally, this whole thread was a big disheartening blow for me. First, my account was robbed and I lost about 40k in AD overall (thanks for quick GM support, that's ALL I lost).
Then I think about getting the Acolyte of Kelemvor, and even get the money on my little debit card.
But reading these changes, I realize I don't believe in the game enough to put any more money into it. No, it's not the tenacity attribute in itself. It's the general feeling I get from the devs from this and other posts.
Changing certain gear fully into 'pvp gear' bothers me. PvP gear was already iffy, but you could still go either way in it's use. This proposition means that PvP is overall going to be handled separately, and kept separate, from PvE in the minds of the devs, instead of intricately tied together as I feel is most healthy for the community.
Secondly, tenacity. A lot of work for a *fix* that should have been applied to bigger, broader issues in PvP. And it's not even the best suggestion I've heard. Nor do I think it's an easy change.
All in all, I feel that there is a very large gap between my belief in how PvP should go, and the developers. It's their game, so I'm not going to say that they are wrong.
But without PvP, I wouldn't stay in NwO. Dungeons and PvE content simply isn't that enticing, especially when my primary class is a GWF, to boot. I love the Neverwinter setting, and Dungeons and Dragons, but every tabletop game I've been in has had some form of PVP in it.
I'm just feeling very disheartened.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
How bout instead of doing all this. Release open world random gen stats loot drops and random gen epic loot that also has a random gen loot from bosses. Maybe the players can choose there own build with trial and error to become well geared for pvp. Just a thought. That might even help with AH in ad flow I'd say.
I'm sure you guys put a lot of work into these changes, but please: Rethink this.
This seems like a very cookie-cutter WoW "resilience" based solution.
Just fix the matchmaking, and add new content. People will always be crying about facing off against higher GS opponents.
A band-aid fix is only going to get you a slippery slope of more and more changes, nerfs, complaining, etc.
Why nerf DC? They are absolutely fine. Sure, some are harder to kill, but the point is strategy. Your team needs to focus the DC down. Once you have better stats, those DCs aren't so "invincible." Keeping the high from the low GS separated is a much better solution.
Seriously, I don't need to build and spend millions of AD enchanting an entire new set to work along side my current armor, because of people complaining.
PVP WORKS HOW IT IS, JUST FIX MATCHMAKING.
If I were to make subtle changes to the classes it would be:
1. You can only be proned once every X seconds.
This would prevent stun locks, which TBH are the only thing I find semi-annoying in PVP. SEMI because I understand the strategy, which can also be used against them with a well balanced team makeup.
"Perma-stealth" TRs: Seriously? You do realize you can see them when you run up on them. Figure out where the knives are coming from and knock them out of stealth (when you hit them they lose stealth meter). Just knock them out and CC. If they get away? GOOD, they aren't helping their team by running from domination nodes. Really not an issue. (Its called tactics). I'm really never worried about them anymore. Also: AOE them out of stealth if you have it. Put AOE down on choke points to keep them at bay. They are only invincible against people who run in circles because they don't know how to deal with them.
Turtle GF: 1st: Kill the DC (always kill the DC), have one distract GF while you get behind them and rain hell/CC/Crit their face off. NBD. Or IGNORE THEM, Kill their team, and stomp him down with your team.
Sentinel DC: I admit, they are hard to kill, so team focus them down, CC as much as possible. If you can't kill them as a team, you are too weak, lack communication and SHOULD BE IN A DIFFERENT BRACKET (MATCHMAKING).
GWF: I've never met a GWF in a 1v1 that I couldn't kill with careful dodging, experience, and patience.
CW: Squishy as hell. I don't know why anyone would have a problem killing them. Anticipate/dodge their entangle, and focus them.
HR: Very easy to kill. Crits will have them running away, or dead.
When your opponents run away they are combat ineffective, not helping their team, and not capping. If you haven't noticed, that is a win. Maybe even just as much a win as killing them, because they spend a longer time healing up and regrouping than the spawn timer.
The problem is, you have people without skill or gear whining because better players are killing them. Let them fight each other. When they get their gear and experience, they will have a much easier time with more advanced players.
Protip: Kill the CW/HR, then kill the DC, then kill the TR, then kill GWF/GF. If you use teamwork and communication, you can overcome unmatched fights. By crippling, damage output and healing output.
No. Altering mechanics that are already within acceptable tolerances, to facilitate new ideologies is reinventing the wheel so you can put a nominally different engine in the car.... why? Why not just simply add avenues, then, let the players make the choice...? (Granted, some things may not work as intended, and require tweaking, but those are a different story)
Look at league of legends (since you brought up the competition aspect) they don't emphasize balance like mmo's, they let people figure out this build or that build.... it creates public qq, but then next week some one else discovers this or that flavor.... you can't tweak everything, or constantly... let the player decide, but allow safeguards in places that are not convoluted.
So many seem to ask for change/balance... asking for things only for the sake of it. Adding things to an mmo is great... changing current stuff to placate to the masses or altering stuff as means to only allure interest, is cheese. There are game ideas that have real intrinsic essence... and then you have pathological ideas, especially regarding balance. There is no balance between these, imo.
Class tweaking is at its core subjective, yes. The version I like is positive, adding this choice of skill tree, or that path, this gear set or that one. Adding stuff.
All that to say that you don't understand what class balance actually means in an MMO, learn to be more concise.
How bout instead of doing all this. Release open world random gen stats loot drops and random gen epic loot that also has a random gen loot from bosses. Maybe the players can choose there own build with trial and error to become well geared for pvp. Just a thought. That might even help with AH in ad flow I'd say.
THis will be removed, but I want to say this is a VERY interesting idea. Then you have players making their own builds from random gen gear.
Maybe youll get a GF chest with:
+HP
+ARp
+Def
+DEfl
+Tenacity
That would be fairly close to BIS for pvp. IMO, I proposed this a while back, although without the random gen stats, just random gen rolls on the SET stats, but I like the idea of having random gen stats as well. make all bosses 100% guarantee drop, you can even keep the set bonuses as well, just the stats get randomized.
Now players will plan around not only set bonuses they want, but also trying to get stats they want and its all random gen.
Talk about ways to make players farm dungeons over and over........ IMO genius idea.... BUt FAR too revolutionary for them to take seriously.
Ill tell you right now Cryptic, IF you guys took this idea, and THEN added/gave people Foundry PVP and atleast A WAY to get random Gen Gear from Foundry, your only problem would be how to count the money and how to buy good enough servers for all the players you would have in this game.
Just to lay this out in honest hopes they do this....
The game has a very nice foundation right now. Players have nice gear setups, but ONE of the issues are: no incentive to farm runs over and over and over....
This solves that problem and bring s WHOLE new light to re-doing all the old T1/T2s that were before. I cant tell you how much I would go back and farm for JUST that right stat allocation.
As possible FORUMLA COULD be:
Pick all the offensive stats:
Recovery/Crit/ARP/Power
Defensive Stats
HP/Defense/Deflect/Tenacity
Then on all pieces let them have like 1-2 offensive and 2-3 defensive etc... So the NUMBER of offensive is fixed and the NUMBER of defensive attributes is fixed DEPENDING ON THE ARMOR and THEN it will randomize WHICH defensive/offensive stat goes there AND!!!! How MUCH of that stat.
T2s have a higher roll range than T1s Etc.
Problem solved.
Now youll have people running Temple of Spider again not only because they want Crit instead of Recovery on their chest, but maybe they have ALL the stats they want, they just want a higher number value on each....
Or maybe they have all the stats they want, but its using the wrong 4pc set bonus they want...
This TOTALLY randomizes and adds SOOOOO much replay ability.....
Still fix tenacity stat BTW, but Kudos for having this idea aiaus
I've been trying to think of ways to fix the problem where DCs get less healing out of their heals thanks to the 2 debuffs they get, one from Righteousness, one from the PVP zone. And the solution I found is actually pretty simple, and should create happier players in both PVP and PVE.
Remove Righteousness from DC's, and give every single player in PVP the Righteousness Debuff when in combat, only this time all forms of heals, temporary hit points, regeneration and life steal are 40% less effective on them. This way, everyone will not have such long and drawn out battles in PVP. This will also give PVE DC's an easier time, and will address the issue with stealthy TR's not getting affected by Healing Depression. Everyone will share the DC's pain.
It may sound stupid at first but if you think about it for a second, it's way simpler than some Healing Depression mechanic where you need to get hit before it affects you. Simple solutions tend to fix things better than complicated ones.
I'm sure you guys put a lot of work into these changes, but please: Rethink this.
This seems like a very cookie-cutter WoW "resilience" based solution.
Just fix the matchmaking, and add new content. People will always be crying about facing off against higher GS opponents.
A band-aid fix is only going to get you a slippery slope of more and more changes, nerfs, complaining, etc.
Why nerf DC? They are absolutely fine. Sure, some are harder to kill, but the point is strategy. Your team needs to focus the DC down. Once you have better stats, those DCs aren't so "invincible." Keeping the high from the low GS separated is a much better solution.
Seriously, I don't need to build and spend millions of AD enchanting an entire new set to work along side my current armor, because of people complaining.
PVP WORKS HOW IT IS, JUST FIX MATCHMAKING.
If I were to make subtle changes to the classes it would be:
1. You can only be proned once every X seconds.
This would prevent stun locks, which TBH are the only thing I find semi-annoying in PVP. SEMI because I understand the strategy, which can also be used against them with a well balanced team makeup.
"Perma-stealth" TRs: Seriously? You do realize you can see them when you run up on them. Figure out where the knives are coming from and knock them out of stealth (when you hit them they lose stealth meter). Just knock them out and CC. If they get away? GOOD, they aren't helping their team by running from domination nodes. Really not an issue. (Its called tactics). I'm really never worried about them anymore. Also: AOE them out of stealth if you have it. Put AOE down on choke points to keep them at bay. They are only invincible against people who run in circles because they don't know how to deal with them.
Turtle GF: 1st: Kill the DC (always kill the DC), have one distract GF while you get behind them and rain hell/CC/Crit their face off. NBD. Or IGNORE THEM, Kill their team, and stomp him down with your team.
Sentinel DC: I admit, they are hard to kill, so team focus them down, CC as much as possible. If you can't kill them as a team, you are too weak, lack communication and SHOULD BE IN A DIFFERENT BRACKET (MATCHMAKING).
GWF: I've never met a GWF in a 1v1 that I couldn't kill with careful dodging, experience, and patience.
CW: Squishy as hell. I don't know why anyone would have a problem killing them. Anticipate/dodge their entangle, and focus them.
HR: Very easy to kill. Crits will have them running away, or dead.
When your opponents run away they are combat ineffective, not helping their team, and not capping. If you haven't noticed, that is a win. Maybe even just as much a win as killing them, because they spend a longer time healing up and regrouping than the spawn timer.
The problem is, you have people without skill or gear whining because better players are killing them. Let them fight each other. When they get their gear and experience, they will have a much easier time with more advanced players.
Protip: Kill the CW/HR, then kill the DC, then kill the TR, then kill GWF/GF. If you use teamwork and communication, you can overcome unmatched fights. By crippling, damage output and healing output.
Please don't ruin PVP with a band-aid.
Although I did add some emphasis, I agree with every word in this post.
For months the PVP community/player base has submitted fantastic ideas to vastly improve the current state of PVP in Nw. Amongst all of these suggestions never once have I seen a request to add a pvp specific stat to gear (Tenacity), or to change the way the games current stats function (crit,arm pen,regen).
Currently End Game Pvp amongst the Competitive High Tier Players (premades) is actually very balanced in my opinion. Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses and a counter class when played properly. For myself, this is why I play the game, an amazing combat system and competitive pvp.
The purposed changes are not going to effect just a small portion of the player base, like nerfing an armor set or and enchant. These Changes will effect EVERYONE within the pvp community and even those who just que to collect 4k ad a day. This will force nearly everyone to change their current gear comps, enchants, and quite possibly their feat builds.
So my question is this...
Why are these purposed Changes on the table and the long list of Changes which the Player Base has asked for ignored?
~Kain Palidor~
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Because the feel DCs need to be nerfed and GWFs need a buff.
I'm starting to seriously wonder if the developers at Cryptic actually listen to our suggestions. The only thing they've actually taken from the forum posts are the bug reports as far as I can tell (and very few and far between at that point). I'm disappointed.
You could call it Churn - a way to force everyone to start over to spend more resources and play the game for a little longer.
In practice, these changes will solve *none* of the issues in PvP. If anything, it will just make even more extreme the gap between the Haves and the Have-Nots, fresh 60s and veterans, with the Have-Nots unable to use cheap gear or gear of their choosing and playstyle from PvE to reduce that gap (remember most players do PvP only for dailies).
In the meantime, the Haves maintain most if not all of their edge, go through their usual highly resourced, highly efficient, collective motions of rapid gearing and resume again, except this time discover what was a fast-paced PvP game turned into a tanking/debuffing/HP snooze fest and continues, as usual, with no structured support or incentives from the game.
The most rose-tinted view of the changes would be to view them as part of a larger set of later changes coming from the next Module. So, considered in isolation, these changes look totally unnecessary, but may make more sense much, much later...
Before placing tenacity in the game they should create shame in the face and create a PVP system with real rank and different types of games. It makes no sense to create specific PVP sets if you do not have to keep a player interested for more than 1 hour per day with 3 BGs nearly identical in operation. I personally despite being a player in WoW PVP find the NW PVP extremely "malnourished". And putting tenacity in pvp they will actually do reduce the interest because many solo players that do not have GS for PVE use pvp gear to get the minimum to try dugeons. Before placing the tenacity staff need to do a new Dugeon Finder system for the game and not a ctrl c of blizzard that only works because of the high number of players. If they do not fix the PVE first, no point trying to create a more exclusive PVP.
Personally, this whole thread was a big disheartening blow for me. First, my account was robbed and I lost about 40k in AD overall (thanks for quick GM support, that's ALL I lost).
Then I think about getting the Acolyte of Kelemvor, and even get the money on my little debit card.
But reading these changes, I realize I don't believe in the game enough to put any more money into it. No, it's not the tenacity attribute in itself. It's the general feeling I get from the devs from this and other posts.
Changing certain gear fully into 'pvp gear' bothers me. PvP gear was already iffy, but you could still go either way in it's use. This proposition means that PvP is overall going to be handled separately, and kept separate, from PvE in the minds of the devs, instead of intricately tied together as I feel is most healthy for the community.
Secondly, tenacity. A lot of work for a *fix* that should have been applied to bigger, broader issues in PvP. And it's not even the best suggestion I've heard. Nor do I think it's an easy change.
All in all, I feel that there is a very large gap between my belief in how PvP should go, and the developers. It's their game, so I'm not going to say that they are wrong.
But without PvP, I wouldn't stay in NwO. Dungeons and PvE content simply isn't that enticing, especially when my primary class is a GWF, to boot. I love the Neverwinter setting, and Dungeons and Dragons, but every tabletop game I've been in has had some form of PVP in it.
I'm just feeling very disheartened.
I feel the exact same way as you. With the upcoming changes, I am now second guessing my time within Neverwinter. For something that could have been resolved so simply, they chose the unnessecary route that causes more problems than it fixes.
Im feeling really discourage about Neverwinter now. Im not a purely strict pvper, I play an equal amount of pve and pvp. But with these changes to pvp. I dont think I'll be pvping anymore. And I dont think the pve content alone will suffice for me very long.
I said it in another thread and people laughed. "Be careful what you wish for, because with cryptic you may not like what you get". Now it shows that I was right. Im a daily quest pvper and even I think these changes are totally horribly thought out. They really dont help anyone and I can see making pvp far worse then it is now. Although I will say it will probably stop all the "do something about quitters" threads since more then likely we'll all start doing it. lol
But I would suggest that everyone go down to the Preview forums and complain since that's what its there for.....even though they don't always listen.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
My suggestion is that all of you chill a bit to see what are the OTHER new things in the upcoming module.
All by itself, Tenacity doesn't make sense, but in a new context of deathmatches for example, it would be just fine.
Also the stat was put up on the test shard exactly for testing purposes, so devs can see how it goes. The chances for Tenacity to make it live as it is are pretty slim, after all the negative feedback.
All in all, have some patience.
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
I've only read about changes and heard about them from my guild mates. So far, it doesn't look good. Keep in mind, however, that they made a lot of changes to the HR on the Test Shard before it was released. Perhaps I'm too optimistic, but I'm hoping they adjust the new PVP content appropriately before making it live.
I have the feeling that is a good moove for the PVP and particulary for most of the player who like a fair PVP.
Truth be told the stuff give an enormous advantage in this game for PVP, it is so huge that you have a ton of leavers, because they have absolutely no chance not to win but to have fun to play against high geared player.
I have nothing about a small or honorable advantage but actually it's too much.
The only purpose of that moove is to give moore fun for lower geared players, because PVP is for everyone , an opportunity to make glory, to play longer and somtimes to win.
A pvp not reserved for 8kgs vs 8kgs etc ect . . . sounds a bit dumb.
In my opinion if this system goes live, they will add moore features for the PVP, because the abyssal pit between low geared and high geared will be gone or at least smaller.
Tactics and team play will be more important including for high geared players against low, and not only brute force, especially for the domination games.
This is a global balance moove, not a class balance moove for sure and whatever a good team stay a good team otherwise it was just the stuff.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The only purpose of that moove is to give moore fun for lower geared players, because PVP is for everyone , an opportunity to make glory, to play longer and somtimes to win.
As it is now, Tenacity won't help lower geared people. They will barely manage to make a dent in the geared guys, and the geared PvPers will be just as impossible. So it won't work as you want, I tested it.
All the proposed changes bar the GF tweaks are ridiculous. No balancing of GWFs, no love for CWs or DCs, the whole tenacity idea is just clownshoes and I can't even begin to imagine what kind of thought process one one would have to use to come up with something so stupid.
For now.
It would be dumb if they would just balance a class (GF) and show nothing for the rest (I'm a CW by the way, and I wanna feel the love GF received too hehe). DC changes are plain bad.
But all in all, I think this is just the initial changes and there are more to come.
As a dedicated non-PvPer even I was somewhat surprised to read that they were planning to nerf healing effects in PvP.....
As a dedicated PvPer, I recommend you step in some matches and witness the level of absolute bullshi* DCs can put up... and then, afterwards, try watching one of those premades where there are multiple DCs, specifically formed on purpose, to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-off PuGs and if you've watched those two, finally, try and watch a premade with those multiple DCs, this time combined with a central GWF fully geared upto its teeth, and see the massacre happen.
Sure, with the right application of debuffs, CCs, ganking, you can bring down a DC -- eventually. But then if your team is busy bringing down that ONE DC, imagine what the rest of the enemies are doing.
So, unlike the doomsayers above, I beg to differ. Reality check: low level players hardly, if ever, rely on heals anyway. The most frequent application of all those heals and temp-HPs and shielding and etcs, is with high-level DCs, and the premades these DCs make a living in. Anything that puts a stop to how those people can play a class so carelessly and so mindlessly, and still be able to shrug of so much damage by simply running around in circles, can only make the PvP better, not worse.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As a dedicated PvPer, I recommend you step in some matches and witness the level of absolute bullshi* DCs can put up... and then, afterwards, try watching one of those premades where there are multiple DCs, specifically formed on purpose, to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-off PuGs and if you've watched those two, finally, try and watch a premade with those multiple DCs, this time combined with a central GWF fully geared upto its teeth, and see the massacre happen.
Sure, with the right application of debuffs, CCs, ganking, you can bring down a DC -- eventually. But then if your team is busy bringing down that ONE DC, imagine what the rest of the enemies are doing.
So, unlike the doomsayers above, I beg to differ. Reality check: low level players hardly, if ever, rely on heals anyway. The most frequent application of all those heals and temp-HPs and shielding and etcs, is with high-level DCs, and the premades these DCs make a living in. Anything that puts a stop to how those people can play a class so carelessly and so mindlessly, and still be able to shrug of so much damage by simply running around in circles, can only make the PvP better, not worse.
So u mean DC really deserve a nerf because we are relying too much on heals?? Don't take the several top guys on the pyramid to judge all pvp DC, although i also heal and buff well in pvp (that not include me)
Comments
the thing is though. No one said anything about this tenacity thing they are introducing. No one said anything about adding a new stat and overhauling the core thing that makes pvp enjoyable.
Just like no one said anything about completely changing the way we refine enchantments when they rehauled that in module 2.
For god knows why they see the need to overhaul entire, working systems unnessecarily is beyond me.
^One of the worst posts I've ever seen on a MMO forum
Especially as it tackles a game which is famous for its amazing job at balancing, regardless of some people crying on Blizz forums since their class is no longer OP.
Balancing is neverending, and this is how it should be. New mechanics are always introduced in MMOs, and classes need adjustments over time to keep them competitive and balanced.
No. Altering mechanics that are already within acceptable tolerances, to facilitate new ideologies is reinventing the wheel so you can put a nominally different engine in the car.... why? Why not just simply add avenues, then, let the players make the choice...? (Granted, some things may not work as intended, and require tweaking, but those are a different story)
Look at league of legends (since you brought up the competition aspect) they don't emphasize balance like mmo's, they let people figure out this build or that build.... it creates public qq, but then next week some one else discovers this or that flavor.... you can't tweak everything, or constantly... let the player decide, but allow safeguards in places that are not convoluted.
So many seem to ask for change/balance... asking for things only for the sake of it. Adding things to an mmo is great... changing current stuff to placate to the masses or altering stuff as means to only allure interest, is cheese. There are game ideas that have real intrinsic essence... and then you have pathological ideas, especially regarding balance. There is no balance between these, imo.
Class tweaking is at its core subjective, yes. The version I like is positive, adding this choice of skill tree, or that path, this gear set or that one. Adding stuff.
I more or less agree with everything you said. I see things in a similar fashion.
Now, I don't know what are you trying to achieve with this, but making everyone even more tanky don't make any sense. After a 50 minutes premade match can easily see people ending up with very low deaths, wouldn't be surprised if serious pvp matches end up with 2 or 3 hours of duration.
Complaints about pvp is mainly about massive difference of gear. A fresh 60 player will most likely rage when getting oneshoted or dying in 2 or 3 seconds.
With this system, not like outgeared people will stop complaining. They will still complain when fightning fully geared players, maybe because... they are immortal ?
PVP does need some new things, and there are a few changes that everyione would most likely support:
* New PVP maps.
* An easier way of making premade matches.
* A duel system.
* A matchmaking system that balance teams by gearscore.
EDIT: And nerf impact shot, seriously?
Isn't like trs are dealing too much damage now, it's the opposite. Our damage already suck.
Yeah...
This is why many people left their CWs for PvP and now run HRs, or GWFs. They "figured out" the solution to enjoy themselves.
This should not happen.
Also LoL is not an MMO. WoW is the standard here, since its PvP is a recognized e-sport at highest level, and it's a full MMO.
Now, about balancing.
It should NOT be done to placate any masses
Then I think about getting the Acolyte of Kelemvor, and even get the money on my little debit card.
But reading these changes, I realize I don't believe in the game enough to put any more money into it. No, it's not the tenacity attribute in itself. It's the general feeling I get from the devs from this and other posts.
Changing certain gear fully into 'pvp gear' bothers me. PvP gear was already iffy, but you could still go either way in it's use. This proposition means that PvP is overall going to be handled separately, and kept separate, from PvE in the minds of the devs, instead of intricately tied together as I feel is most healthy for the community.
Secondly, tenacity. A lot of work for a *fix* that should have been applied to bigger, broader issues in PvP. And it's not even the best suggestion I've heard. Nor do I think it's an easy change.
All in all, I feel that there is a very large gap between my belief in how PvP should go, and the developers. It's their game, so I'm not going to say that they are wrong.
But without PvP, I wouldn't stay in NwO. Dungeons and PvE content simply isn't that enticing, especially when my primary class is a GWF, to boot. I love the Neverwinter setting, and Dungeons and Dragons, but every tabletop game I've been in has had some form of PVP in it.
I'm just feeling very disheartened.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
This seems like a very cookie-cutter WoW "resilience" based solution.
Just fix the matchmaking, and add new content. People will always be crying about facing off against higher GS opponents.
A band-aid fix is only going to get you a slippery slope of more and more changes, nerfs, complaining, etc.
Why nerf DC? They are absolutely fine. Sure, some are harder to kill, but the point is strategy. Your team needs to focus the DC down. Once you have better stats, those DCs aren't so "invincible." Keeping the high from the low GS separated is a much better solution.
Seriously, I don't need to build and spend millions of AD enchanting an entire new set to work along side my current armor, because of people complaining.
PVP WORKS HOW IT IS, JUST FIX MATCHMAKING.
If I were to make subtle changes to the classes it would be:
1. You can only be proned once every X seconds.
This would prevent stun locks, which TBH are the only thing I find semi-annoying in PVP. SEMI because I understand the strategy, which can also be used against them with a well balanced team makeup.
"Perma-stealth" TRs: Seriously? You do realize you can see them when you run up on them. Figure out where the knives are coming from and knock them out of stealth (when you hit them they lose stealth meter). Just knock them out and CC. If they get away? GOOD, they aren't helping their team by running from domination nodes. Really not an issue. (Its called tactics). I'm really never worried about them anymore. Also: AOE them out of stealth if you have it. Put AOE down on choke points to keep them at bay. They are only invincible against people who run in circles because they don't know how to deal with them.
Turtle GF: 1st: Kill the DC (always kill the DC), have one distract GF while you get behind them and rain hell/CC/Crit their face off. NBD. Or IGNORE THEM, Kill their team, and stomp him down with your team.
Sentinel DC: I admit, they are hard to kill, so team focus them down, CC as much as possible. If you can't kill them as a team, you are too weak, lack communication and SHOULD BE IN A DIFFERENT BRACKET (MATCHMAKING).
GWF: I've never met a GWF in a 1v1 that I couldn't kill with careful dodging, experience, and patience.
CW: Squishy as hell. I don't know why anyone would have a problem killing them. Anticipate/dodge their entangle, and focus them.
HR: Very easy to kill. Crits will have them running away, or dead.
When your opponents run away they are combat ineffective, not helping their team, and not capping. If you haven't noticed, that is a win. Maybe even just as much a win as killing them, because they spend a longer time healing up and regrouping than the spawn timer.
The problem is, you have people without skill or gear whining because better players are killing them. Let them fight each other. When they get their gear and experience, they will have a much easier time with more advanced players.
Protip: Kill the CW/HR, then kill the DC, then kill the TR, then kill GWF/GF. If you use teamwork and communication, you can overcome unmatched fights. By crippling, damage output and healing output.
Please don't ruin PVP with a band-aid.
All that to say that you don't understand what class balance actually means in an MMO, learn to be more concise.
THis will be removed, but I want to say this is a VERY interesting idea. Then you have players making their own builds from random gen gear.
Maybe youll get a GF chest with:
+HP
+ARp
+Def
+DEfl
+Tenacity
That would be fairly close to BIS for pvp. IMO, I proposed this a while back, although without the random gen stats, just random gen rolls on the SET stats, but I like the idea of having random gen stats as well. make all bosses 100% guarantee drop, you can even keep the set bonuses as well, just the stats get randomized.
Now players will plan around not only set bonuses they want, but also trying to get stats they want and its all random gen.
Talk about ways to make players farm dungeons over and over........ IMO genius idea.... BUt FAR too revolutionary for them to take seriously.
Ill tell you right now Cryptic, IF you guys took this idea, and THEN added/gave people Foundry PVP and atleast A WAY to get random Gen Gear from Foundry, your only problem would be how to count the money and how to buy good enough servers for all the players you would have in this game.
Just to lay this out in honest hopes they do this....
The game has a very nice foundation right now. Players have nice gear setups, but ONE of the issues are: no incentive to farm runs over and over and over....
This solves that problem and bring s WHOLE new light to re-doing all the old T1/T2s that were before. I cant tell you how much I would go back and farm for JUST that right stat allocation.
As possible FORUMLA COULD be:
Pick all the offensive stats:
Recovery/Crit/ARP/Power
Defensive Stats
HP/Defense/Deflect/Tenacity
Then on all pieces let them have like 1-2 offensive and 2-3 defensive etc... So the NUMBER of offensive is fixed and the NUMBER of defensive attributes is fixed DEPENDING ON THE ARMOR and THEN it will randomize WHICH defensive/offensive stat goes there AND!!!! How MUCH of that stat.
T2s have a higher roll range than T1s Etc.
Problem solved.
Now youll have people running Temple of Spider again not only because they want Crit instead of Recovery on their chest, but maybe they have ALL the stats they want, they just want a higher number value on each....
Or maybe they have all the stats they want, but its using the wrong 4pc set bonus they want...
This TOTALLY randomizes and adds SOOOOO much replay ability.....
Still fix tenacity stat BTW, but Kudos for having this idea aiaus
Remove Righteousness from DC's, and give every single player in PVP the Righteousness Debuff when in combat, only this time all forms of heals, temporary hit points, regeneration and life steal are 40% less effective on them. This way, everyone will not have such long and drawn out battles in PVP. This will also give PVE DC's an easier time, and will address the issue with stealthy TR's not getting affected by Healing Depression. Everyone will share the DC's pain.
It may sound stupid at first but if you think about it for a second, it's way simpler than some Healing Depression mechanic where you need to get hit before it affects you. Simple solutions tend to fix things better than complicated ones.
Although I did add some emphasis, I agree with every word in this post.
Currently End Game Pvp amongst the Competitive High Tier Players (premades) is actually very balanced in my opinion. Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses and a counter class when played properly. For myself, this is why I play the game, an amazing combat system and competitive pvp.
The purposed changes are not going to effect just a small portion of the player base, like nerfing an armor set or and enchant. These Changes will effect EVERYONE within the pvp community and even those who just que to collect 4k ad a day. This will force nearly everyone to change their current gear comps, enchants, and quite possibly their feat builds.
So my question is this...
Why are these purposed Changes on the table and the long list of Changes which the Player Base has asked for ignored?
~Kain Palidor~
Obviously, Trace.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
My YouTube Channel
A Comprehensive Review of Neverwinter <-- Read it!
As a dedicated non-PvPer even I was somewhat surprised to read that they were planning to nerf healing effects in PvP.....
In practice, these changes will solve *none* of the issues in PvP. If anything, it will just make even more extreme the gap between the Haves and the Have-Nots, fresh 60s and veterans, with the Have-Nots unable to use cheap gear or gear of their choosing and playstyle from PvE to reduce that gap (remember most players do PvP only for dailies).
In the meantime, the Haves maintain most if not all of their edge, go through their usual highly resourced, highly efficient, collective motions of rapid gearing and resume again, except this time discover what was a fast-paced PvP game turned into a tanking/debuffing/HP snooze fest and continues, as usual, with no structured support or incentives from the game.
The most rose-tinted view of the changes would be to view them as part of a larger set of later changes coming from the next Module. So, considered in isolation, these changes look totally unnecessary, but may make more sense much, much later...
I feel the exact same way as you. With the upcoming changes, I am now second guessing my time within Neverwinter. For something that could have been resolved so simply, they chose the unnessecary route that causes more problems than it fixes.
Im feeling really discourage about Neverwinter now. Im not a purely strict pvper, I play an equal amount of pve and pvp. But with these changes to pvp. I dont think I'll be pvping anymore. And I dont think the pve content alone will suffice for me very long.
But I would suggest that everyone go down to the Preview forums and complain since that's what its there for.....even though they don't always listen.
All by itself, Tenacity doesn't make sense, but in a new context of deathmatches for example, it would be just fine.
Also the stat was put up on the test shard exactly for testing purposes, so devs can see how it goes. The chances for Tenacity to make it live as it is are pretty slim, after all the negative feedback.
All in all, have some patience.
We'll see.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Truth be told the stuff give an enormous advantage in this game for PVP, it is so huge that you have a ton of leavers, because they have absolutely no chance not to win but to have fun to play against high geared player.
I have nothing about a small or honorable advantage but actually it's too much.
The only purpose of that moove is to give moore fun for lower geared players, because PVP is for everyone , an opportunity to make glory, to play longer and somtimes to win.
A pvp not reserved for 8kgs vs 8kgs etc ect . . . sounds a bit dumb.
In my opinion if this system goes live, they will add moore features for the PVP, because the abyssal pit between low geared and high geared will be gone or at least smaller.
Tactics and team play will be more important including for high geared players against low, and not only brute force, especially for the domination games.
This is a global balance moove, not a class balance moove for sure and whatever a good team stay a good team otherwise it was just the stuff.
As it is now, Tenacity won't help lower geared people. They will barely manage to make a dent in the geared guys, and the geared PvPers will be just as impossible. So it won't work as you want, I tested it.
For now.
It would be dumb if they would just balance a class (GF) and show nothing for the rest (I'm a CW by the way, and I wanna feel the love GF received too hehe). DC changes are plain bad.
But all in all, I think this is just the initial changes and there are more to come.
As a dedicated PvPer, I recommend you step in some matches and witness the level of absolute bullshi* DCs can put up... and then, afterwards, try watching one of those premades where there are multiple DCs, specifically formed on purpose, to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-off PuGs and if you've watched those two, finally, try and watch a premade with those multiple DCs, this time combined with a central GWF fully geared upto its teeth, and see the massacre happen.
Sure, with the right application of debuffs, CCs, ganking, you can bring down a DC -- eventually. But then if your team is busy bringing down that ONE DC, imagine what the rest of the enemies are doing.
So, unlike the doomsayers above, I beg to differ. Reality check: low level players hardly, if ever, rely on heals anyway. The most frequent application of all those heals and temp-HPs and shielding and etcs, is with high-level DCs, and the premades these DCs make a living in. Anything that puts a stop to how those people can play a class so carelessly and so mindlessly, and still be able to shrug of so much damage by simply running around in circles, can only make the PvP better, not worse.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So u mean DC really deserve a nerf because we are relying too much on heals?? Don't take the several top guys on the pyramid to judge all pvp DC, although i also heal and buff well in pvp (that not include me)