The problems you guys are talking about in regards to gear are all non-issues for me. Ive been using the GG set for months now. I simply stick recovery on my stone for pve. With the extra 5% stealth damage and the longer stealth bar it turns out I actually do more damage with GG set than all the PVE sets.
Nearly all pvp TRs already have the GG set and swap during pve and pvp accordingly. You guys are talking about bag space but honestly I have 5 bags, some of them the jumbo blue ones, so 4 slots for an armor set isn't a big deal at all.
Also, and I cant stress this part enough, you guys don't know what else the devs are planning to do. You don't know if there are plans to release pvp rewards in module 3 which have these tenacity bonuses so you might not even need to grab the GG set anyway.
Module 3 isn't going to just be the introduction of tenancity and that's it. No far from it. What they want now is to balance pvp and from there add content to it. I expect new maps and game modes. Possibly ranks, rewards, matchmaking, private ques for select 5v5 matches, 1v1s, new achievements, ext... Its too early now to tell though.
So don't speculate on these other things that are unknown at this point. Just simply comment on the stat itself and how it adds to or worsens pvp balance and overall experience.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited January 2014
TR PvP gear has always been good for multipurpose use. The same cannot be said for all classes.
Also note that the introduction of tenacity is accompanied by a reduction in all offensive stats on affected items.
matii1509Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
The most ridiculous is what dev (gentlemancrush) says on stream: "Healing Depression is not rally bad for DC, DC can easily heal self and other, if there is DC in party its hard to kill them, etc"
Have u ever play DC? Drawing conclusions on the basis of the match, in which the cleric is not dead is ridiculous. It is like comparing a weak team to a strong team. As DC I can vs weak team tank and kill them all. So DC need other nerf, hmm meaby 3rd weakness healing. I spoke with other DC's and all says the same. If you'll follow this way never in this game will be a good PvP.
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
DC: DC's have some issues. They have definitely nerfed the healing and also the T2 pvp set has stat issues like the CW. Like before the addition of more sets should fix this. However base DR%+PVP debuff+Tenacity+AS = hitting a brick wall. Seem to be better buffers than healers now. With some tweaks they have potential.
Yours belongs to most optimistic posts for Clerics that I have seen. Since I HATE the idea of making a halfling, Dwarf Cleric with CON max TANK Cleric is there any future for my Clerics in PvP? Gearscore is not issue my best Cleric has 15,8k currently and is improving it slowly.
Defence, Deflection no problem I can stack that a lot also to get ok/good defence, but I refuse to make some high CON build period.
Cleric is the most screwed class in this and I am afraid I must donate my best enchantments from my main Cleric to my Rogue, but Artifacts can not be donated unfortunately and I am a free player.
I don't know about BETA test servers, but in official servers GWF is clearly strongest class and I hope they get a nerf.
Chill ele, you have to take any changes unless you ask devs to directly use a normal DC and play pvp for 20 matches against elites and premade EoA, Enemy Team, Lemonade Stand and Chocolate Stand. Let see how is his performance in score board. 0 kill, 50 deaths, 30 assists??? That is a cleric when nerfed.
This seems to be a really broken way of calculating tenacity bonuses.
Take for example a TR and a GWF.
TR has 20% DR with 22% tenacity benefit and GWF has 55% DR with 22% Tenacity.
TR = 20*1.22 = 24.4% DR
Versus
GWF = 55% *1.22 = 67.1% DR.
So why does the GWF get 12% added DR for 22% tenacity while a TR only gets 4.4%?
Shouldnt these numbers more averaged?
After all, a Rougue uses leather armour and a Great Weapon Fighter uses plate armour, so where is the problem if the latter gets more defensive capabilities?
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Chill ele, you have to take any changes unless you ask devs to directly use a normal DC and play pvp for 20 matches against elites and premade EoA, Enemy Team, Lemonade Stand and Chocolate Stand. Let see how is his performance in score board. 0 kill, 50 deaths, 30 assists??? That is a cleric when nerfed.
Yours belongs to most optimistic posts for Clerics that I have seen. Since I HATE the idea of making a halfling, Dwarf Cleric with CON max TANK Cleric is there any future for my Clerics in PvP? Gearscore is not issue my best Cleric has 15,8k currently and is improving it slowly.
Defence, Deflection no problem I can stack that a lot also to get ok/good defence, but I refuse to make some high CON build period.
Cleric is the most screwed class in this and I am afraid I must donate my best enchantments from my main Cleric to my Rogue, but Artifacts can not be donated unfortunately and I am a free player.
I don't know about BETA test servers, but in official servers GWF is clearly strongest class and I hope they get a nerf.
Well I spoke the truth how I feel about changes that Cleric heals are nerfed 50% in PvP. That is not a minor or normal nerf. Example 20-30% nerf in heals would be more normal change.
Chill? Well yeah I am not pissed and I will continue to play this game. Cleric will still be very useful in PvE. However I have adapted. I have completely halted my advancment for my Cleric with 15,8k gs and I try desperately to increase gs for my Rogue but it goes very slowly and he is 13,1k currently.
This is the feedback forum so I wish that Cleric get heal buff if not to same level as before say 25% healing reduction in PvP instead of 50% would be much more balanced.
My main 15.8k do get kills but not as much as my Rogue and yes it is true Cleric gets more assists then kills. The only really interesting thing for me is that when will there be posted in the Class forums builds that are adapted to these changes. Does anyone know when it is meant this changes will become valid in all servers?
Think about those casual players that have only 1 character a Cleric with say 11,0k gearscore and that player likes PvP and then suddenly PvP heals are reduced 50%. I suspect many of them are much more upset then me and I take it fairly diplomatically and calmly.
Someone posted a really clever idea I really liked.
Instead of making the new PVP gear available for JUST glory, I like the idea of making it so if you want T2/T2.5 gear you have to trade in your OLD gear + Glory for the new piece.
So how this works:
Currently the T1 Chest is 4,200 glory. You now have two option of getting the T2 Chest, run GG and buy it OR! Farm 8,400 glory. First you would need to farm the T1 Chest for 4,200 glory THEN farm an additional 4,200 glory and buy the T2 Chest with a trade in PLUS 4,200 glory.
Now looking at the T2.5 Chest, would need an additional 4,200 glory for that making it 12,600 total for the T2.5. YOu can always farm more glory to have the lesser sets if youd like those as well.
So what this looks like for the final tier then is 3x the T1 price.
But if you already had the T2 it would just be:
24,150
Then also I think the neck/rings/belt should cost ALOT more as well... maybe like 3,150 a piece.
The other NICE thing about the system though is that if you already have the GG gear you just pay for 1 set of upgrades so you could get that easily, but then looking at getting a second set for different stats (when they come out) would be a nice time investment.
Someone posted a really clever idea I really liked.
Instead of making the new PVP gear available for JUST glory, I like the idea of making it so if you want T2/T2.5 gear you have to trade in your OLD gear + Glory for the new piece.
I don't think that would be good for anyone who has spent AD dying and skinning their current GG armor. If they have to turn it in to get the new set, then they lose all their customizations and would need to pay to have that all done again.
I don't think that would be good for anyone who has spent AD dying and skinning their current GG armor. If they have to turn it in to get the new set, then they lose all their customizations and would need to pay to have that all done again.
I thought about that as well, and it wouldnt be hard to just farm another GG set via glory... I mean 4.2k for T1 (most people have these laying around) and another 4.2k for the GG set, During double glory hour you get like 800-1k a game, and you can run 4-5 games per hour? Theres a t1chest, do that 2x and you have your GG chest.
Compare that to GG, 7 coins for winning GG pvp then avg 3 speed runs at 4-6 each so call it 15? 22 Coins per hour and it takes 3-4 of those for 1 piece... Glory method is faster and can be done anytime.
I mean I guess you could just make each piece cost double the one before it... T1 = 4.2k T1= 8.4k and T2.5 = 16.8k
It should be a large time investment to get the gear IMO.
There is no way I am going to farm, farm, farm all over again to get another set of enchants to put into another set of armour. I spent enough time farming and earning gear to feel that I have earned it.
I won't go through it again just to appease the folks dying in pvp that HAVEN'T gone through the grind I did to get my level of equipment.
My views are shared with several people I have spoken to. You're forcing players to either choose to be pvp OR pve players OR to spend a fortune in cash/time to build up a whole new set of kit to be viable in both.
My choice, if this happens, will be feet+door=gone.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited January 2014
Actually, Rift did that with their PvP sets. You traded in your old set plus some currency to get the new item.
The idea behind the system was it encouraged people to keep "buying" upgrades as they progressed, instead of just sucking it up and staying with the same HAMSTER armor until they had enough currency to buy the best set. Otherwise, people viewed it as "waste" to spend currency on a "lesser" set.
If you made the sets tradeable from T1->T2->T2.5 you have a situation where the veterans can quickly upgrade their current gear, but also new people have a better path of progression and an incentive to gradually "buy up" their gear.
Or just implement the 'reinforced' system they have on some T2 arms, but instead of doing this with professions spend glory for it, just increase the stats and 4/4 bonuses and keep the looks...
There is no way I am going to farm, farm, farm all over again to get another set of enchants to put into another set of armour. I spent enough time farming and earning gear to feel that I have earned it.
I won't go through it again just to appease the folks dying in pvp that HAVEN'T gone through the grind I did to get my level of equipment.
My views are shared with several people I have spoken to. You're forcing players to either choose to be pvp OR pve players OR to spend a fortune in cash/time to build up a whole new set of kit to be viable in both.
My choice, if this happens, will be feet+door=gone.
Who says you have to farm? I really dont get it when people say this because the pvp game is ALREADY like this...
Point 1) Character Rolls. If you want a PVP character you have to roll correctly - this makes a BIG difference end game.
Point 2) Race. If you want a PVP character you have to pick the best race, example Halflings for most classes are THE pvp race but not as good in PVE.
Point 3) If you want a PVP character your going to focus BIG time on ARP. My GF and GWF have over 35% ARP, well almsot all of it is from Rank 9+ Darks.. Im already well over the ARP cap for PVE purposes so whould I whine that to play PVE better I need to farm, farm, farm all over again to get different enchants?
Point 4) Character build. PVP versus PVE builds are TOTALLY different... Should I whine about having to spend over 100k AD everytime I want to respec?
Point 5) Gear. Gear choice is completely different for PVE/PVP ALREADY. For most classes the BIS pvp sets are COMPLETELY different from BIS PVE sets....
So NOW your complaining because the BIS pvp sets will change? Well MAYBE, and just MAYBE you have worked out a gearset that is nice for both PVE/PVP but your still going to fall WAY behind on the other four points, rolls/race/armorpen(enchants)/Spec and you want to complain because the pvp BIS gear will change....
Makes NO sense.
Not to bash on you but it seems to me that your just a casual PVPer who likes to farm PVE as well and are now mad because you might have to spend a few gold to swap armor over to your pvp gear to have more optimal pvp? Isnt that ALREADY the case and THEN some?
Ill say what I say to most people complaining about this, if you want to MIN/MAX pvp or pve you ALREADY have to choose what to be best at.
And guess what! They are even implementing a matchmaking system so if you DONT stack tenacity youll get matched against other players who arent min/maxed for PVP so its not even like youll get stomped over and over by premades all in BIS gear...
Or just implement the 'reinforced' system they have on some T2 arms, but instead of doing this with professions spend glory for it, just increase the stats and 4/4 bonuses and keep the looks...
Hmmm so you reinforce the item with tenacity? Thats not a bad idea although I doubt they will go for it... My old fear as well is then you have classes like GWF who get to do that with already insane tank gear like Titan/scrappers setup. So I feel like having new pvp gear makes it more of a tradeoff.
Good example is on live on my GWF I have over 3k defense, which is kinda a key number for most GWF. On the PTR with tenacity gear it drops to 2.4k, which is a big drop in total DR for me, but because I pick up tenacity its a win in the end.
I gear this gives too much choice although I do like this idea MORE than others... I just dont know if it would be the best way to go? Plus then you force people to have to farm professions which is even more an AD sink than farming glory for pvp gear... Clever but who knows.
Id still rather see them just add tenacity "utility" enchants to the PVP vendor. I mean at a rank 10 its 300 per piece so thats 900 tenacity. Then maybe keep the rings/belts/neck as is and you essentially did the same thing. Although same issues as reinforce idea...
Overall I dont mind the changes, the gear looks awesome. I do worry about this creating a divide between pvp/pve players which is why I honestly would like to see PVP gear obtained through PVE in some way... I wouldnt even be opposed to throwing the T2.5 gear into PVE dungeons as possible drops (like MC/VT) so players need to continue to farm those to get gear...
But the thing that makes me laugh is this:
When DEVs adjust abilities for PVP the PVE community whines. When DEVs try and make gear for pvp to balance pvp and NOT affect PVE the PVE community whines about two sets of gear...
Make up your mind then! Either adjust abilities, or adjust the gear... I feel like PVEers brought this on themselves with so many threads full of "stop nerfing my PVE for PVP"...
Also noone knows what will come with Mod 3, they could be working on an "arena" system where this stat or type of thing would be needed.
Who says you have to farm? I really dont get it when people say this because the pvp game is ALREADY like this...
Point 1) Character Rolls. If you want a PVP character you have to roll correctly - this makes a BIG difference end game.
Point 2) Race. If you want a PVP character you have to pick the best race, example Halflings for most classes are THE pvp race but not as good in PVE.
Point 3) If you want a PVP character your going to focus BIG time on ARP. My GF and GWF have over 35% ARP, well almsot all of it is from Rank 9+ Darks.. Im already well over the ARP cap for PVE purposes so whould I whine that to play PVE better I need to farm, farm, farm all over again to get different enchants?
Point 4) Character build. PVP versus PVE builds are TOTALLY different... Should I whine about having to spend over 100k AD everytime I want to respec?
Point 5) Gear. Gear choice is completely different for PVE/PVP ALREADY. For most classes the BIS pvp sets are COMPLETELY different from BIS PVE sets....
So NOW your complaining because the BIS pvp sets will change? Well MAYBE, and just MAYBE you have worked out a gearset that is nice for both PVE/PVP but your still going to fall WAY behind on the other four points, rolls/race/armorpen(enchants)/Spec and you want to complain because the pvp BIS gear will change....
Makes NO sense.
blah blah blah
So.
I give you one set of armour which has 7 enchant slots.
You have spent your time levelling 7 specific enchants to fill the slots you have and perhaps 2-4 other enchants you have in pvp or pve specific armour that only goes on to do that specific thing.
Now you have to earn another set of armour, or I give it to you, whatever.
You now have 7 more slots to fill.
Go on. Tell me how you're going to fill those slots with rank 8's (equivalent to what you currently wear) without farming all over again.
You didn't read my post, understand what I said or ignored the lot of it.
Your existing enchants are not going to magically double. You are not going to get a friendly guy come up and trade you 7 enchants for your ill-gotten wisdom. You are going to have to either BUY them or FARM them.
It's not complex. I'm not sure why you don't get it.
Computer: Black, pretty lights || Overclock: Photo of kids. || Memory: Not what it used to be. || Storage: Garage and shed. || Video: No, moved to DVD. || Windows: 100% glass.
Never understood why people put specs in a signature...
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well your post was so long so wrote SNIP and meant no offense with that. First of all I think peoples reactions differs a lot of depending on what class they play. You mentioned that you play Great Weapon Fighter.
I am not sure how it is on Tenacity server. That said currently on valid servers GWF is strongest class period. Anyone telling a Trickster Rogue or Control Wizard is better in PvP then Great Weapon Fighter is a liar. Due to many buffs in patches to GWF and nerfs to other classes fact is GWF is crystal clear the strongest class in the game currently. GWF is so effective so my Cleric rather take a GWF as tank then a GF.
Great Weapon Fighter is so strong class so yeah actually you can likely do both PvE and PvP fine with only 1 set of gear.
I have 3 max level characters of which 2 are Clerics and one is Trickster Rogue. The future in PvP looks bleak right now for the Cleric and my wish is that the 50% heal nerf would hopefully be reduced to 25% reduced healing nerf instead which would be more balanced. I even consider moving all my good enchants from my main Cleric to my Trickster Rogue. Unfortunately Artifacts are bind on equip.
Shortly said I guess future does not look so hard when you are Great Weapon Fighter that is the strongest class currently in the game.
So.
I give you one set of armour which has 7 enchant slots.
You have spent your time levelling 7 specific enchants to fill the slots you have and perhaps 2-4 other enchants you have in pvp or pve specific armour that only goes on to do that specific thing.
Now you have to earn another set of armour, or I give it to you, whatever.
You now have 7 more slots to fill.
Go on. Tell me how you're going to fill those slots with rank 8's (equivalent to what you currently wear) without farming all over again.
You didn't read my post, understand what I said or ignored the lot of it.
Your existing enchants are not going to magically double. You are not going to get a friendly guy come up and trade you 7 enchants for your ill-gotten wisdom. You are going to have to either BUY them or FARM them.
It's not complex. I'm not sure why you don't get it.
I dont know what do you do right now when you want to PVP?
A) GO in with a Sub-Optimal character Take out enchants and put them into PVP gear
Either way the game is the same right now, the only thing that has changed is the armor that is BIS for pvp has changed.
Ill put it in your terms.
You have Set of armor A with 7 enchant slots. YOu spent all yout time leveling 7 specific enchant slots.
Now that you wanna pvp , you have to fill the new slots with enchants, or pay to take them out and swap over. Tell me how you currently fill the slots....
My point is, your probably already playing EITHER a sub-optimal PVE character or a suboptimal PVP character. (my bets on the latter one).
So now with BETTER pvp gear introduced, you can keep playing the SAME way. A sub-optimal character without tenacity.
Ontop of that, like I said, youll also benefit from matchmaking because they will pair you with sub optimal characters after losing in a pvp match to a better geared or skilled player.
Well your post was so long so wrote SNIP and meant no offense with that. First of all I think peoples reactions differs a lot of depending on what class they play. You mentioned that you play Great Weapon Fighter.
I am not sure how it is on Tenacity server. That said currently on valid servers GWF is strongest class period. Anyone telling a Trickster Rogue or Control Wizard is better in PvP then Great Weapon Fighter is a liar. Due to many buffs in patches to GWF and nerfs to other classes fact is GWF is crystal clear the strongest class in the game currently. GWF is so effective so my Cleric rather take a GWF as tank then a GF.
Great Weapon Fighter is so strong class so yeah actually you can likely do both PvE and PvP fine with only 1 set of gear.
I have 3 max level characters of which 2 are Clerics and one is Trickster Rogue. The future in PvP looks bleak right now for the Cleric and my wish is that the 50% heal nerf would hopefully be reduced to 25% reduced healing nerf instead which would be more balanced. I even consider moving all my good enchants from my main Cleric to my Trickster Rogue. Unfortunately Artifacts are bind on equip.
Shortly said I guess future does not look so hard when you are Great Weapon Fighter that is the strongest class currently in the game.
I play a TR/GF/GWF
On the current LIVE server liek I mentioned before I have spent ALL my AD farming dark enchants to the point I am well above the ARP cap for PVE
What does that mean? If I want to PVE better I have to take out those darks OR get new enchants.
Also Sentinel Spec GWFs in BIS pvp gear are horrible for PVE. So can you PVE? sure, can you PVE well? Not at all.
For a PVE character, can you pvp? not very well....
In the current game it already IS a divide between pvp characters and PVE characters.
It seems to me the people that typically complain about this are players who want 1 set of gear for both pve and pvp. People that do that are NOT already optimal for PVP, I guess they just dont know it. I dont know how else to say it...
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
Actually, Rift did that with their PvP sets. You traded in your old set plus some currency to get the new item.
The idea behind the system was it encouraged people to keep "buying" upgrades as they progressed, instead of just sucking it up and staying with the same HAMSTER armor until they had enough currency to buy the best set. Otherwise, people viewed it as "waste" to spend currency on a "lesser" set.
If you made the sets tradeable from T1->T2->T2.5 you have a situation where the veterans can quickly upgrade their current gear, but also new people have a better path of progression and an incentive to gradually "buy up" their gear.
So.
I give you one set of armour which has 7 enchant slots.
You have spent your time levelling 7 specific enchants to fill the slots you have and perhaps 2-4 other enchants you have in pvp or pve specific armour that only goes on to do that specific thing.
Now you have to earn another set of armour, or I give it to you, whatever.
You now have 7 more slots to fill.
Go on. Tell me how you're going to fill those slots with rank 8's (equivalent to what you currently wear) without farming all over again.
You didn't read my post, understand what I said or ignored the lot of it.
Your existing enchants are not going to magically double. You are not going to get a friendly guy come up and trade you 7 enchants for your ill-gotten wisdom. You are going to have to either BUY them or FARM them.
It's not complex. I'm not sure why you don't get it.
Or you know, You can pay the 17 Gold 50 Silver to move your enchants into the new gear back and forth. It is fairly obvious that you PvE more than you PvP, and I would not be surprised that you would only PvP for the daily anyway. 17.5Gold is much better than the Millions of AD I have spent in switching enchants around before this change came in. And oh look, You Pve, You have access to a literal bucketload of blue and green gear to sell, to fund your enchant swapping.
Win-Win in everyone's books.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
[...]
As said above, the other classes all have ways to avoid damage, which means, during a match, they will be under healing depression a lot less. Examples:
[...]
I think you'll find with healing depression being 10 seconds, only TRs are able to avoid it being permanently up in combat. That was my experience last play sessions at least.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think you'll find with healing depression being 10 seconds, only TRs are able to avoid it being permanently up in combat. That was my experience last play sessions at least.
10 seconds after taking damage. That definitely puts certain classes in an advantageous position to heal.
Or you know, You can pay the 17 Gold 50 Silver to move your enchants into the new gear back and forth. It is fairly obvious that you PvE more than you PvP, and I would not be surprised that you would only PvP for the daily anyway. 17.5Gold is much better than the Millions of AD I have spent in switching enchants around before this change came in. And oh look, You Pve, You have access to a literal bucketload of blue and green gear to sell, to fund your enchant swapping.
Win-Win in everyone's books.
It's not really viable. Not even if you move fewer enchants.
Example:
- starts day as PvE, does ALL dailies, ALL Sharandar zones+lairs, sell blue drops, gets maybe 7-10G (optimistic approximation). This will take you about 1 hrs at least, many people have that much time to play/day
- does a few dungeon runs, consumes 5G on pots&kits
- starts PvP... needs to move at least 4 Enchants (wep, armor). Additionally I have to move like 5-6 radiants as well.
- what if you get asked to dungeon again after PvP? Go and underperform, correct, or switch yet again
- if the above didn't happen, new day starts, all your enchants in PvP gear, time to switch AGAIN for PvE chores.
You will go broke in no time. Tested. And I'm also vendoring seals gear too most of the times.
But yes, it's more viable than paying AD for unslotting. Still very bad overall. These enchants are extremely expensive, they should allow us to move them freely between 2 chosen sets or just between PvP and PvE sets.
I think you'll find with healing depression being 10 seconds, only TRs are able to avoid it being permanently up in combat. That was my experience last play sessions at least.
It depends on the situation.
But still, it's pure logic than a ranged class or a class that can avoid damage, or both, is less affected by HD than a melee class that is 100% of the time taking damage... Even if just a bit, other classes have more options to avoid being affected by healing depression. Ranged classes, also, can keep attacking while staying otut of range and healing at full capacity. A GWF is Always in the brawl, taking damage 100% of the time. Difference may be small depending on the situation, but still, there's a difference in how different classes are affected by healing depression. DCs are the other class that will be 100% of the time under healing depression.
TRs are a Whole different story. They can, with a proper build, regenerate a lot. And they can, again, with a proper build, avoid most of the incoming damage, and, if needed, disengage, go stealth, recover and keep attacking from range in the process, keeping the enemy under HD while they heal at full capacity.
So, if you ask me, it's a given that they get less damage resistance than a GWF that is 100% of the time attacked/ debuffed/ under HD.
TRs will be affected far less than any other class from healing depression. The balanced part is that they will, on the other side, be the class, along with HRs, most affected by tenacity critical hit resistance (their offensive capabilities gets a nerf). And, of course, they get less DR than a GWF. For the reasons mentioned above.
But still, it's pure logic than a ranged class or a class that can avoid damage, or both, is less affected by HD than a melee class that is 100% of the time taking damage... Even if just a bit, other classes have more options to avoid being affected by healing depression. Ranged classes, also, can keep attacking while staying otut of range and healing at full capacity. A GWF is Always in the brawl, taking damage 100% of the time. Difference may be small depending on the situation, but still, there's a difference in how different classes are affected by healing depression. DCs are the other class that will be 100% of the time under healing depression.
TRs are a Whole different story. They can, with a proper build, regenerate a lot. And they can, again, with a proper build, avoid most of the incoming damage, and, if needed, disengage, go stealth, recover and keep attacking from range in the process, keeping the enemy under HD while they heal at full capacity.
So, if you ask me, it's a given that they get less damage resistance than a GWF that is 100% of the time attacked/ debuffed/ under HD.
TRs will be affected far less than any other class from healing depression. The balanced part is that they will, on the other side, be the class, along with HRs, most affected by tenacity critical hit resistance (their offensive capabilities gets a nerf). And, of course, they get less DR than a GWF. For the reasons mentioned above.
10 seconds is actually a long time and while it seems plausible that someone could stealth - run away etc, it actually doesnt happen and wouldnt happen that way very often and that only gives regular regen ticks so its not like a full health.
This is my GWF 1v1ing on the PTR a few days ago. I 1v1d several players and had about 12 1v1s with that TR (jerkface)
Also the math posted above shows that more squishy classes get a BETTER benefit from Tenacity than no squishy characters. Just how it works... And I think it SHOULD be that way.
Since there is so many calls for nerfs on GWF(even though they are balanced on preview atm and even slightly underwhellming against good opponents) I will ask the nerf callers (*cough* TRs *cough*) some questions. Why shouldnt tanky classes be more tanky? WHy shouldn't a squishy glass canon CW die quick? Why should a TR be able to facetank(like they did pre-mod2) and win against other- real tank classes? Why should a TR with Full immunity skills, stealth, quickest dodge animation and quickest refiling stamina bar in game get so much defense that they can stand and 2shot plate/mail wearers(and with the ArPen supression removal I fully expect them to pewpew "HAI NAMBAZ" again) like they are CWs while swallowing hits of a Guy with a 5 foot sword that shakes the ground when it hits.
Comments
Nearly all pvp TRs already have the GG set and swap during pve and pvp accordingly. You guys are talking about bag space but honestly I have 5 bags, some of them the jumbo blue ones, so 4 slots for an armor set isn't a big deal at all.
Also, and I cant stress this part enough, you guys don't know what else the devs are planning to do. You don't know if there are plans to release pvp rewards in module 3 which have these tenacity bonuses so you might not even need to grab the GG set anyway.
Module 3 isn't going to just be the introduction of tenancity and that's it. No far from it. What they want now is to balance pvp and from there add content to it. I expect new maps and game modes. Possibly ranks, rewards, matchmaking, private ques for select 5v5 matches, 1v1s, new achievements, ext... Its too early now to tell though.
So don't speculate on these other things that are unknown at this point. Just simply comment on the stat itself and how it adds to or worsens pvp balance and overall experience.
Also note that the introduction of tenacity is accompanied by a reduction in all offensive stats on affected items.
I don't have much to say about the matter that I didn't already write up here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?584531-PvE-implications-of-changes-to-PvP-gear-sets
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Have u ever play DC? Drawing conclusions on the basis of the match, in which the cleric is not dead is ridiculous. It is like comparing a weak team to a strong team. As DC I can vs weak team tank and kill them all. So DC need other nerf, hmm meaby 3rd weakness healing. I spoke with other DC's and all says the same. If you'll follow this way never in this game will be a good PvP.
*edit* I think i found it. From yesterday:
http://www.twitch.tv/perfectworld_community/b/497885161
Iyon the Dark
Poor devs...
Defence, Deflection no problem I can stack that a lot also to get ok/good defence, but I refuse to make some high CON build period.
Cleric is the most screwed class in this and I am afraid I must donate my best enchantments from my main Cleric to my Rogue, but Artifacts can not be donated unfortunately and I am a free player.
I don't know about BETA test servers, but in official servers GWF is clearly strongest class and I hope they get a nerf.
After all, a Rougue uses leather armour and a Great Weapon Fighter uses plate armour, so where is the problem if the latter gets more defensive capabilities?
and my original post was: Well I spoke the truth how I feel about changes that Cleric heals are nerfed 50% in PvP. That is not a minor or normal nerf. Example 20-30% nerf in heals would be more normal change.
Chill? Well yeah I am not pissed and I will continue to play this game. Cleric will still be very useful in PvE. However I have adapted. I have completely halted my advancment for my Cleric with 15,8k gs and I try desperately to increase gs for my Rogue but it goes very slowly and he is 13,1k currently.
This is the feedback forum so I wish that Cleric get heal buff if not to same level as before say 25% healing reduction in PvP instead of 50% would be much more balanced.
My main 15.8k do get kills but not as much as my Rogue and yes it is true Cleric gets more assists then kills. The only really interesting thing for me is that when will there be posted in the Class forums builds that are adapted to these changes. Does anyone know when it is meant this changes will become valid in all servers?
Think about those casual players that have only 1 character a Cleric with say 11,0k gearscore and that player likes PvP and then suddenly PvP heals are reduced 50%. I suspect many of them are much more upset then me and I take it fairly diplomatically and calmly.
Instead of making the new PVP gear available for JUST glory, I like the idea of making it so if you want T2/T2.5 gear you have to trade in your OLD gear + Glory for the new piece.
So how this works:
Currently the T1 Chest is 4,200 glory. You now have two option of getting the T2 Chest, run GG and buy it OR! Farm 8,400 glory. First you would need to farm the T1 Chest for 4,200 glory THEN farm an additional 4,200 glory and buy the T2 Chest with a trade in PLUS 4,200 glory.
Now looking at the T2.5 Chest, would need an additional 4,200 glory for that making it 12,600 total for the T2.5. YOu can always farm more glory to have the lesser sets if youd like those as well.
So what this looks like for the final tier then is 3x the T1 price.
Total for T2.5 from nothing to T2.5:
Gloves: 9,450
Chest: 12,600
Off Hand: 12,600
Boots: 12,600
Helm: 9,450
Weapon: 15,750
Total: 72,450
But if you already had the T2 it would just be:
24,150
Then also I think the neck/rings/belt should cost ALOT more as well... maybe like 3,150 a piece.
The other NICE thing about the system though is that if you already have the GG gear you just pay for 1 set of upgrades so you could get that easily, but then looking at getting a second set for different stats (when they come out) would be a nice time investment.
I don't think that would be good for anyone who has spent AD dying and skinning their current GG armor. If they have to turn it in to get the new set, then they lose all their customizations and would need to pay to have that all done again.
I thought about that as well, and it wouldnt be hard to just farm another GG set via glory... I mean 4.2k for T1 (most people have these laying around) and another 4.2k for the GG set, During double glory hour you get like 800-1k a game, and you can run 4-5 games per hour? Theres a t1chest, do that 2x and you have your GG chest.
Compare that to GG, 7 coins for winning GG pvp then avg 3 speed runs at 4-6 each so call it 15? 22 Coins per hour and it takes 3-4 of those for 1 piece... Glory method is faster and can be done anytime.
I mean I guess you could just make each piece cost double the one before it... T1 = 4.2k T1= 8.4k and T2.5 = 16.8k
It should be a large time investment to get the gear IMO.
I won't go through it again just to appease the folks dying in pvp that HAVEN'T gone through the grind I did to get my level of equipment.
My views are shared with several people I have spoken to. You're forcing players to either choose to be pvp OR pve players OR to spend a fortune in cash/time to build up a whole new set of kit to be viable in both.
My choice, if this happens, will be feet+door=gone.
Never understood why people put specs in a signature...
The idea behind the system was it encouraged people to keep "buying" upgrades as they progressed, instead of just sucking it up and staying with the same HAMSTER armor until they had enough currency to buy the best set. Otherwise, people viewed it as "waste" to spend currency on a "lesser" set.
If you made the sets tradeable from T1->T2->T2.5 you have a situation where the veterans can quickly upgrade their current gear, but also new people have a better path of progression and an incentive to gradually "buy up" their gear.
Who says you have to farm? I really dont get it when people say this because the pvp game is ALREADY like this...
Point 1) Character Rolls. If you want a PVP character you have to roll correctly - this makes a BIG difference end game.
Point 2) Race. If you want a PVP character you have to pick the best race, example Halflings for most classes are THE pvp race but not as good in PVE.
Point 3) If you want a PVP character your going to focus BIG time on ARP. My GF and GWF have over 35% ARP, well almsot all of it is from Rank 9+ Darks.. Im already well over the ARP cap for PVE purposes so whould I whine that to play PVE better I need to farm, farm, farm all over again to get different enchants?
Point 4) Character build. PVP versus PVE builds are TOTALLY different... Should I whine about having to spend over 100k AD everytime I want to respec?
Point 5) Gear. Gear choice is completely different for PVE/PVP ALREADY. For most classes the BIS pvp sets are COMPLETELY different from BIS PVE sets....
So NOW your complaining because the BIS pvp sets will change? Well MAYBE, and just MAYBE you have worked out a gearset that is nice for both PVE/PVP but your still going to fall WAY behind on the other four points, rolls/race/armorpen(enchants)/Spec and you want to complain because the pvp BIS gear will change....
Makes NO sense.
Not to bash on you but it seems to me that your just a casual PVPer who likes to farm PVE as well and are now mad because you might have to spend a few gold to swap armor over to your pvp gear to have more optimal pvp? Isnt that ALREADY the case and THEN some?
Ill say what I say to most people complaining about this, if you want to MIN/MAX pvp or pve you ALREADY have to choose what to be best at.
And guess what! They are even implementing a matchmaking system so if you DONT stack tenacity youll get matched against other players who arent min/maxed for PVP so its not even like youll get stomped over and over by premades all in BIS gear...
Hmmm so you reinforce the item with tenacity? Thats not a bad idea although I doubt they will go for it... My old fear as well is then you have classes like GWF who get to do that with already insane tank gear like Titan/scrappers setup. So I feel like having new pvp gear makes it more of a tradeoff.
Good example is on live on my GWF I have over 3k defense, which is kinda a key number for most GWF. On the PTR with tenacity gear it drops to 2.4k, which is a big drop in total DR for me, but because I pick up tenacity its a win in the end.
I gear this gives too much choice although I do like this idea MORE than others... I just dont know if it would be the best way to go? Plus then you force people to have to farm professions which is even more an AD sink than farming glory for pvp gear... Clever but who knows.
Id still rather see them just add tenacity "utility" enchants to the PVP vendor. I mean at a rank 10 its 300 per piece so thats 900 tenacity. Then maybe keep the rings/belts/neck as is and you essentially did the same thing. Although same issues as reinforce idea...
Overall I dont mind the changes, the gear looks awesome. I do worry about this creating a divide between pvp/pve players which is why I honestly would like to see PVP gear obtained through PVE in some way... I wouldnt even be opposed to throwing the T2.5 gear into PVE dungeons as possible drops (like MC/VT) so players need to continue to farm those to get gear...
But the thing that makes me laugh is this:
When DEVs adjust abilities for PVP the PVE community whines. When DEVs try and make gear for pvp to balance pvp and NOT affect PVE the PVE community whines about two sets of gear...
Make up your mind then! Either adjust abilities, or adjust the gear... I feel like PVEers brought this on themselves with so many threads full of "stop nerfing my PVE for PVP"...
Also noone knows what will come with Mod 3, they could be working on an "arena" system where this stat or type of thing would be needed.
So.
I give you one set of armour which has 7 enchant slots.
You have spent your time levelling 7 specific enchants to fill the slots you have and perhaps 2-4 other enchants you have in pvp or pve specific armour that only goes on to do that specific thing.
Now you have to earn another set of armour, or I give it to you, whatever.
You now have 7 more slots to fill.
Go on. Tell me how you're going to fill those slots with rank 8's (equivalent to what you currently wear) without farming all over again.
You didn't read my post, understand what I said or ignored the lot of it.
Your existing enchants are not going to magically double. You are not going to get a friendly guy come up and trade you 7 enchants for your ill-gotten wisdom. You are going to have to either BUY them or FARM them.
It's not complex. I'm not sure why you don't get it.
Never understood why people put specs in a signature...
I am not sure how it is on Tenacity server. That said currently on valid servers GWF is strongest class period. Anyone telling a Trickster Rogue or Control Wizard is better in PvP then Great Weapon Fighter is a liar. Due to many buffs in patches to GWF and nerfs to other classes fact is GWF is crystal clear the strongest class in the game currently. GWF is so effective so my Cleric rather take a GWF as tank then a GF.
Great Weapon Fighter is so strong class so yeah actually you can likely do both PvE and PvP fine with only 1 set of gear.
I have 3 max level characters of which 2 are Clerics and one is Trickster Rogue. The future in PvP looks bleak right now for the Cleric and my wish is that the 50% heal nerf would hopefully be reduced to 25% reduced healing nerf instead which would be more balanced. I even consider moving all my good enchants from my main Cleric to my Trickster Rogue. Unfortunately Artifacts are bind on equip.
Shortly said I guess future does not look so hard when you are Great Weapon Fighter that is the strongest class currently in the game.
I dont know what do you do right now when you want to PVP?
A) GO in with a Sub-Optimal character
Either way the game is the same right now, the only thing that has changed is the armor that is BIS for pvp has changed.
Ill put it in your terms.
You have Set of armor A with 7 enchant slots. YOu spent all yout time leveling 7 specific enchant slots.
Now that you wanna pvp , you have to fill the new slots with enchants, or pay to take them out and swap over. Tell me how you currently fill the slots....
My point is, your probably already playing EITHER a sub-optimal PVE character or a suboptimal PVP character. (my bets on the latter one).
So now with BETTER pvp gear introduced, you can keep playing the SAME way. A sub-optimal character without tenacity.
Ontop of that, like I said, youll also benefit from matchmaking because they will pair you with sub optimal characters after losing in a pvp match to a better geared or skilled player.
I play a TR/GF/GWF
On the current LIVE server liek I mentioned before I have spent ALL my AD farming dark enchants to the point I am well above the ARP cap for PVE
What does that mean? If I want to PVE better I have to take out those darks OR get new enchants.
Also Sentinel Spec GWFs in BIS pvp gear are horrible for PVE. So can you PVE? sure, can you PVE well? Not at all.
For a PVE character, can you pvp? not very well....
In the current game it already IS a divide between pvp characters and PVE characters.
It seems to me the people that typically complain about this are players who want 1 set of gear for both pve and pvp. People that do that are NOT already optimal for PVP, I guess they just dont know it. I dont know how else to say it...
That's actually kinda brilliant.
Or you know, You can pay the 17 Gold 50 Silver to move your enchants into the new gear back and forth. It is fairly obvious that you PvE more than you PvP, and I would not be surprised that you would only PvP for the daily anyway. 17.5Gold is much better than the Millions of AD I have spent in switching enchants around before this change came in. And oh look, You Pve, You have access to a literal bucketload of blue and green gear to sell, to fund your enchant swapping.
Win-Win in everyone's books.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
I think you'll find with healing depression being 10 seconds, only TRs are able to avoid it being permanently up in combat. That was my experience last play sessions at least.
10 seconds after taking damage. That definitely puts certain classes in an advantageous position to heal.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
It's not really viable. Not even if you move fewer enchants.
Example:
- starts day as PvE, does ALL dailies, ALL Sharandar zones+lairs, sell blue drops, gets maybe 7-10G (optimistic approximation). This will take you about 1 hrs at least, many people have that much time to play/day
- does a few dungeon runs, consumes 5G on pots&kits
- starts PvP... needs to move at least 4 Enchants (wep, armor). Additionally I have to move like 5-6 radiants as well.
- what if you get asked to dungeon again after PvP? Go and underperform, correct, or switch yet again
- if the above didn't happen, new day starts, all your enchants in PvP gear, time to switch AGAIN for PvE chores.
You will go broke in no time. Tested. And I'm also vendoring seals gear too most of the times.
But yes, it's more viable than paying AD for unslotting. Still very bad overall. These enchants are extremely expensive, they should allow us to move them freely between 2 chosen sets or just between PvP and PvE sets.
It depends on the situation.
But still, it's pure logic than a ranged class or a class that can avoid damage, or both, is less affected by HD than a melee class that is 100% of the time taking damage... Even if just a bit, other classes have more options to avoid being affected by healing depression. Ranged classes, also, can keep attacking while staying otut of range and healing at full capacity. A GWF is Always in the brawl, taking damage 100% of the time. Difference may be small depending on the situation, but still, there's a difference in how different classes are affected by healing depression. DCs are the other class that will be 100% of the time under healing depression.
TRs are a Whole different story. They can, with a proper build, regenerate a lot. And they can, again, with a proper build, avoid most of the incoming damage, and, if needed, disengage, go stealth, recover and keep attacking from range in the process, keeping the enemy under HD while they heal at full capacity.
So, if you ask me, it's a given that they get less damage resistance than a GWF that is 100% of the time attacked/ debuffed/ under HD.
TRs will be affected far less than any other class from healing depression. The balanced part is that they will, on the other side, be the class, along with HRs, most affected by tenacity critical hit resistance (their offensive capabilities gets a nerf). And, of course, they get less DR than a GWF. For the reasons mentioned above.
10 seconds is actually a long time and while it seems plausible that someone could stealth - run away etc, it actually doesnt happen and wouldnt happen that way very often and that only gives regular regen ticks so its not like a full health.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-danZ5aY40
This is my GWF 1v1ing on the PTR a few days ago. I 1v1d several players and had about 12 1v1s with that TR (jerkface)
Also the math posted above shows that more squishy classes get a BETTER benefit from Tenacity than no squishy characters. Just how it works... And I think it SHOULD be that way.
Crit damage IS crit severity..